Did Bill Tiller said too much about the ending of Monkey Island 2?

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  • edited August 2009
    I think people are giving Ron Gilbert way too much benefit of the doubt here. Yes, he was the main character designer and the main man responsible for the plot, but he wasn't the only one.

    Did anyone look at all of the book titles in the Phatt City Library? If you look in one of the catalog drawers (S, I think), you will see several books with similar titles to "why trilogies are crap ideas" and "why a trilogy?" and how I read into that is: Ron thought making a 3rd game would be eking out the franchise too much. Hence the main part of the ending, which fans of evergoing good sagas have every right to be ticked off about.

    So he decides to close the series on the bummer "it's just two kids playing around in a theme park", which ofc pays homage to the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyland. That, I think, is where he planned to leave it. Then he himself pursued other projects.

    Like I said earlier, he wasn't the only writer for MI2. Others at LucasArts wanted to leave a possibility for a 3rd game, so wrote in Elaine's scene at the end. And I'm glad they did.

    So then we get a cute, child-friendly, cartoony sequel. When it came out, I disliked the new style, as it was so different to the style of the first two games. Years later, it's grown on me and the CMI works very well as a game in its own right.

    Then they tried to explain everything at the return to the Carnival of the Damned. This might not have been the best idea, but at least they took a stab at continuity.

    Another comedy adventure franchise that brought its series back from the dead comes to my mind: Leisure Suit Larry. At the end of Larry 3, he gets hired as a programmer for Sierra (they break the 4th wall a lot too) and lives happily ever after with his soulmate, Patti. At the beginning of Larry 5, he's a teaboy for a sleazeball boss in a sleazeball company and Patti (for the moment) is nowhere to be seen. The character suffered from amnesia, such that he couldn't remember the events involved in the transition. At the end of the game, he reunites with Patti and the expose his boss as being responsible for the events in the (deliberately) unreleased 4th game. The writers never explain what these were and the fans (myself included) are satisfied with there being an entire lack of explanation. Larry is a bumbling CG character looking for love in the wrong places and to add a serious plot mechanism and bog every episode transition down in obscure continuity would detract from the humour of the series. Since they scrapped plans for the 8th game, they've wrecked the series with an arcade game of interactive porn and a poorly thought-up Hollywood spin-off but that's by-the-by.

    Bill Tiller, first and foremost, is an artist. Imho, I feel he should leave writing well alone and not try to undermine others involved in MI. Having said that, if Voojoo Island ever gets released, I will buy it because I love piratey stuff.

    If Ron Gilbert does make a 3rd MI game, this backpedalling had better be good and tbh I think he should leave it in the hands of those who wanted it continued anyway (like Dave Grossman), as they seem to be doing a great job. Needless to say, I'd buy any MI game that even looks half decent.
  • edited August 2009
    The real answer here is that they should have hired me (despite my being 12 years old at the time) because I would be much better at it than any of those guys, and they would know if they would ever read the Guybrush-Murray slash fanfic I keep sending them!
  • edited August 2009
    tbm1986 wrote: »
    Did anyone look at all of the book titles in the Phatt City Library? If you look in one of the catalog drawers (S, I think), you will see several books with similar titles to "why trilogies are crap ideas" and "why a trilogy?" and how I read into that is: Ron thought making a 3rd game would be eking out the franchise too much. Hence the main part of the ending, which fans of evergoing good sagas have every right to be ticked off about.

    The only thing that doesn't line up with that is this whole secret mystery. RG said something like I might reveal the secret if Lucasarts hires me back again."
  • edited August 2009
    Kolgax wrote: »
    The only thing that doesn't line up with that is this whole secret mystery. RG said something like I might reveal the secret if Lucasarts hires me back again."

    I think that was for ppl's desperate thinking, and that the real secret was "it's all a fantasy in this kid's head while playing around in a theme park" aka a dream inspired by PotC @ Disneyland.
  • edited August 2009
    DreadFyre wrote: »
    I typed this from the Adventurer: Volume 1, Number 1.
    You mention doing some reading, Why?
    I read a lot of novels and reference books, more for the flavor of the period than for accuracy. This isn't a historically accurate game. In fact you'll see when you play that there are a lot of anachronisms, like the vending machine at Stan's used ship yard. They're there to add humor to the game, of course, but they also have a secret, deeper relevance to the story - but I'm keeping that secret for the sequel.

    salmonmax wrote: »
    Anyone got copies of old Lucasfilm Games Adventurer newsletters? I'm pretty sure that when the Secret of Monkey Island came out, Ron Gilbert did an interview with them and when asked about the anachronisms in the game (i.e. the vending machine at Stan's), he states that they're related to the true Secret of Monkey Island.

    Make what you will of this comment... I always thought that it lent credence to the Guybrush-is-a-kid-and-it's-all-in-his-imagination theory.
    It does. It seems to me the evidence points in this direction.
  • edited August 2009
    I don't get why people become upset over the possibility that everything in Monkey Island is just going on in someone's head. When you think about it, that's the definition of fiction.
  • edited August 2009
    Brainiac wrote: »
    I don't get why people become upset over the possibility that everything in Monkey Island is just going on in someone's head. When you think about it, that's the definition of fiction.

    Have you ever seen that one episode of family guy?

    Exposing the plot as a dream removes everyone's emotional investment that they had sunk into the characters.
  • edited August 2009
    Follower wrote: »
    Have you ever seen that one episode of family guy?

    Exposing the plot as a dream removes everyone's emotional investment that they had sunk into the characters.

    At least monkey island didn't end like the Sopranos did in mid senten-
  • edited August 2009
    Why would it undermine anything. Just make an alternative MI3. Then they can reboot the series, make something new doesn't require the writers to try and connect the games in any way. Personally, I want a darker more grittier and dirty Monkey Island sometime, with more sarcasm and cruel practical jokes, like many of those you find in MI2. Guybrush was a real wiseguy in MI2, and all he ever had his eyes on was finding Big Whoop, no matter the cost - though he still was this likeable fellow. He had no reservation against stealing, lying and fooling his way through the game, with even a couple of really cruel actions (Stan, Kate).

    So I really just want a reboot, 'cause they seem to be writing themselves into a corner. Either pick up the story where MI2 left us, or just reboot the entire series completely, by just making unrelated stories, not bound by timelines or events from previous games. Like the Final Fantasy series or the Zelda series, but with a lot of the same characters. Hell, they could even make a game where you control LeChuck - it worked great in the Kyrandia series, surely.
  • edited August 2009
    I never believed there was an actual secret to Monkey Island. I always considered it as a joke; the kind of joke that you expect has a punchline only to discover that the punchline is that there is none.

    Yeah, I was watching too much Benny Hill, Monty Python and a great number of other silly shows back then, so that's why I never expected the actual "secret" to be existent.

    And in truth, I always found my interpretation (the fact that you play through the whole game without ever finding the supposed secret since there was none to begin with) as being funnier than all the theories written about it 20 years later. It's a sadistic joke on the expense of the player, which I found extremely funny and befitting the game's atmosphere.

    I was around 10 years old back then, so I trust my 10-year-old self more in this matter than any other different-dimension-theory loon.

    P.S. I never liked the fact that MI2 tries to "explain" MI1 by adding the subtle and supposed theme park idea to the game's universe, since it felt a bit sloppy; although I still see how much of a sadistic joke of the developers that can be, underlining the triviality of it all. OK, it's a love-hate thing, then. Happy?
  • edited August 2009
    I feel like I arrived late to a party and everyone stopped doing what they were doing when I walked in. Beer bong, anyone?
  • edited August 2009
    Now, when I played MI3, I had no idea who this Ron fellow was let alone that he had left.

    I think the thing that put me off was that I noticed that Guybrush had basically been 'reset' back to his SoMI version, physically with having lost his beard and coat and, more importantly as it was this bit that threw me off, his return to his sudden obsession with Elaine despite the break up in the earlier one. In fact, it wasn't just a return, it was even stronger than before, and made Guybrush unbearable to me while Elaine also suffered personality-wise for me (what happened to her independant personality?).

    Had I known about the change in authorship, I might not have had such expectations of course, as when taking over a franchise the best thing you can often do is perform a reset on the story in order to be able to do the series in your own way, instead of just doing what would become a pale imitation of the original, and thankfully that's what they did. If they had tried to carry on in the same vein as the original two then we'd probably have ended up with a pale imitation and the death of the series. This way, they got to make the game they wanted to make. And, of course, Murray! :D
  • edited August 2009
    Jazzy wrote: »
    Now, when I played MI3, I had no idea who this Ron fellow was let alone that he had left.

    I think the thing that put me off was that I noticed that Guybrush had basically been 'reset' back to his SoMI version, physically with having lost his beard and coat and, more importantly as it was this bit that threw me off, his return to his sudden obsession with Elaine despite the break up in the earlier one. In fact, it wasn't just a return, it was even stronger than before, and made Guybrush unbearable to me while Elaine also suffered personality-wise for me (what happened to her independant personality?).

    Had I known about the change in authorship, I might not have had such expectations of course, as when taking over a franchise the best thing you can often do is perform a reset on the story in order to be able to do the series in your own way, instead of just doing what would become a pale imitation of the original, and thankfully that's what they did. If they had tried to carry on in the same vein as the original two then we'd probably have ended up with a pale imitation and the death of the series. This way, they got to make the game they wanted to make. And, of course, Murray! :D

    I can see your points. But they did try to keep MI2 veterans satisfied by sneaking referential lines in, eg. "I had a beard once. A really cool one! I wonder what happened to it..."

    But after Big Whoop let him down so much, I don't see why his heart wouldn't leap at seeing Elaine. As for the way he's dressed, he's just escaped from the biggest living nightmare of his life. I doubt he gave changing his clothes a second thought before he skedaddled. Besides, the rags suit his CMI appearance :).

    I thought the game was a well-deserved 4.5/5 but there were two things that let me down: a) the Voodoo Lady made no apology for being mistaken about Big Whoop and sending Guybrush after it; b) the rushed ending flashed by and left me cold.

    As for Elaine lacking independence, she stood up to LeChuck then had the shock of her life when her ex came in to spoil the party. She didn't exactly say 'yes' when he gave her the ring. She was confused and overwhelmed on Blood Island. She must have decided upon the 'yes' when he rescued her and she saw Guybrush finish LeChuck for the 3rd time, proving him to be a hapless, yet able and dedicated man.

    I thought it was funny how pussy-whipped he was in Escape. Elaine was definitely back in charge there. Guybrush seems to have come back into his own for Tales (beard and blue jacket are back) and I love it.
  • edited August 2009
    I am sure someone else said it by now but...

    Only Ron Gilbert knows the true secret of Monkey Island. If he wanted it to end with Monkey Island 2 I assume he would of berated MI3, MI4 and Tales of Monkey Island. But so far he hasn't really seemed to mind it, I just hope one day he's lead designer on a MI game again.
  • edited August 2009
    fire2box wrote: »
    I am sure someone else said it by now but...

    Only Ron Gilbert knows the true secret of Monkey Island. If he wanted it to end with Monkey Island 2 I assume he would of berated MI3, MI4 and Tales of Monkey Island. But so far he hasn't really seemed to mind it, I just hope one day he's lead designer on a MI game again.

    He hasn't minded because he LEFT! He's been doing other things. Besides, MI was just one of many things he took part in writing the story for in his LA days.


    Unlike Al Lowe, whose baby is Leisure Suit Larry. Sierra cancelled production of LSL8 halfway through then didn't even consult him when they made Magna Cum Laude! If any man has a right to be angry and bitter, he does.
  • edited August 2009
    Ron Gilbert didn't care enough about "his" MI3 to make it, so I don't care enough to know what it was. Curse is the only MI3 I need.
  • edited August 2009
    Curse of Monkey Island to me isn't MI3. It's simply post-MI2.
  • edited August 2009
    Curse of Monkey Island to me isn't MI3. It's simply post-MI2.

    Gilbert voluntarily gave up the reins to MI before Curse came out. Ron's MI3, if and when it comes out, shall be commonly known as Ron's MI3. Whether it's hit or miss, it depends whether he puts the effort in or not, and how strange/warped his take on what post-MI2 should be.

    In the meantime, LA have already given us a MI3 and it was hard to knock.
  • edited August 2009
    tbm1986 wrote: »
    Gilbert voluntarily gave up the reins to MI before Curse came out.

    Did he? He chose to leave LucasArts, for probably a lot of reasons. When you make something for a company you don't own it. I don't see him leaving LucasArts as voluntarily giving up the reins of MI. He had problems with the company and he left. LucasArts owned the series so he couldn't take it with him. Die hard fans might have a hard time believing this, but I doubt anyone would have stayed working at a company they didn't want to anymore just for the chance to possibly make a sequel to one of the series you helped create. Real life takes priority.
  • edited August 2009
    If they ever decide to have Ron doing another MI then it should be called Ron Gilbert's The Legend of Monkey Island.
  • edited August 2009
    Yes, CMI and EMI are the official sequels for the saga. I'm very happy with this sequels... but... I want to know the secret of Ron Gilbert too.

    Don't you want to know secrets or discarded ideas from your favourite films? Don't you want to know other plots that were not used finally in your favourite films?
    I think that it's not a bad thing to know the idea that Ron had in his mind about the Monkey Island world. CMI and EMI will remain as the official sequels and the fans will have the "extra" idea of Ron. I think that the fans deserve an answer to this mystery wich during 20 years have been making magic discussions in the net.

    Respect to the comments of Bill Tiller on the secret... Why Ron Gilbert didn't say nothing about it? I have much estimation for Bill Tiller, but I think the secret it's not that he said. Ron had said in interviews and chat that the secret of Monkey Island was not the imagination of a child.

    Independently of this, I think CMI is one of the best adventure games ever. I love it.
  • edited August 2009
    Stargamer wrote: »
    Yes, CMI and EMI are the official sequels for the saga. I'm very happy with this sequels... but... I want to know the secret of Ron Gilbert too.

    Don't you want to know secrets or discarded ideas from your favourite films? Don't you want to know other plots that were not used finally in your favourite films?
    I think that it's not a bad thing to know the idea that Ron had in his mind about the Monkey Island world. CMI and EMI will remain as the official sequels and the fans will have the "extra" idea of Ron. I think that the fans deserve an answer to this mystery wich during 20 years have been making magic discussions in the net.

    Respect to the comments of Bill Tiller on the secret... Why Ron Gilbert didn't say nothing about it? I have much estimation for Bill Tiller, but I think the secret it's not that he said. Ron had said in interviews and chat that the secret of Monkey Island was not the imagination of a child.

    Independently of this, I think CMI is one of the best adventure games ever. I love it.

    Yes, I think now there's chance that Ron Gilbert will make another MI. If Lucasarts will not put the big budget for a new full adventure after the success of both TOMI and TSOMI SE, then probably he could work in an episode on season 2 to explain it all... as a flashback!

    Honestly I don't think that both TSOMI and MI2 LE are both the dream of a child. And while he wasn't involved in neither COMI and EFMI, it's very important that Ron tries to adapt his follow up to the events of MI2 LE respecting those iteration of Monkey Island as part of the canon, just like Telltale is doing with Tales of Monkey Island. I think there is one or two things that would contradict each other, but nothing too bad.

    Well, and my theory is probably much simpler than most. I think Guybrush hit his head and started dreaming in the ending of the game, so a follow up by Ron Gilbert should begin in that dream, and when he wakes up he has to face Le Chuck in his new adventure: Ron Gilbert's Legend of Monkey Island or whatever it is called.
  • edited August 2009
    tbm1986 wrote: »
    I think that was for ppl's desperate thinking, and that the real secret was "it's all a fantasy in this kid's head while playing around in a theme park" aka a dream inspired by PotC @ Disneyland.

    It's possible but he's pretty much said that this is not the case.

    After that it becomes a question of how much you trust him. ;)

    Also - It was said that Mr. Gilbert was consulted with on Tales, which is probably more than you can say about Escape. So these epis might be more interesting than we know. ;)
  • edited August 2009
    pilouuuu wrote: »
    Yes, I think now there's chance that Ron Gilbert will make another MI.
    would you really want that? also, would ron gilbert want to?
    would the real secret of monkey island still work with the events of curse and escape? of course the official story has its flaws, but still i would like to keep it as it is, to avoid further confusion....on the other hand, if the original secret could somehow be worked into the current plot without screwing around to much, that would be neat. hmm, maybe the already did it...maybe tales will also reveal the secret in episode five.
    think about it...ron gilbert somehow helped with tales, but not that much to be officially working on the game, but maybe enough to explain the secret...dave grossman is also working on tales and he definitely is one of the original mi crew. furthermore, there are other telltale emloyees that seem to know about the secret even though they were not involved in the creation of the first two mi games. so maybe...or maybe not.
  • edited August 2009
    Kolgax wrote: »
    It's possible but he's pretty much said that this is not the case.

    After that it becomes a question of how much you trust him. ;)

    Yeah, he made the two Monkey Island games and... well, I think that we must trust him. And he has said that if he could, he make a new Monkey Island game. Then he has to have a real idea for Monkey 3, because if in the future he has the chance of make a new game, if he had lied, he would have many problems. Then, I think that he is not lying and he had some ideas for Monkey Island 3 that the people don't know.

    And in the Monkey 1 era, in some interviews he said that the anachronisms have a secret in the story, before he made Monkey 2. Then I want to believe that Ron have a history for the game safe in his mind ;)

    Respect to CMI and EMI, well, I don't know if the official history would be contradicted, I have no idea... but maybe Ron can adapt a little his history... O maybe he can make an alternative game only for fans, an "extra game", like the expanded universe and novels of Star Wars.
  • edited August 2009
    Yeah I think he's probably got something in mind, I just am giving another plausible theory a nod. (The there was no secret, but if you give me a contract there will be.)

    Didn't he also say that if the secret were revealed he was afraid it would disappoint a lot of people?
  • edited August 2009
    Kolgax wrote: »
    Didn't he also say that if the secret were revealed he was afraid it would disappoint a lot of people?

    Yeah, something like that. The exact phrase is:

    <Ron-G> The problem with the Secret of Monkey Island...

    <Ron-G> is that it's built up sich a mystic, that when I finally do reviel it, you're all going to go "That was dumb". :-)


    Extract from here:
    http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=1004

    And this interview is very interesting too:
    http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=1033
  • edited August 2009
    I would love to see Ron Gilbert's third part of Monkey Island. I suspect this could be a great game and moreover it could close the Monkey Island chapter in a classic style, at least for some time, so that we can move on to new interesting IP for change as well.
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