Telltale's done this before with Walter/Matthew and Jonas/Zachary. So this isn't a first for them. (Also it isn't outright obvious that Javier is bisexual, since we needed a writer to confirm it)
Honestly I'm kind of proud of telltale. Literally the only other LGBT+ male protagonist from a major video game franchise is Jacon Frye from… more AC Syndicate. Every other LGBT+ is typically an attractive woman.
Having a guy be LGBT+ is seen as a big marketing risk sadly due to "pushing away" the majority playerbase.
Now I can only hope Javier doesn't immediately die next season from BuryYourGays syndrome (or bi in this case)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuryYourGays
I accidentally upvoted but keep it anyway cuz that did give me a chuckle.
But being serious, I'm proud of the diversity resulting from the choices. The writing, however, is weak in a lot of places I agree. But it is due to the limited time the characters have to develop. I'm sure ANF would have been much better with 2 hour episodes.
Telltale's done this before with Walter/Matthew and Jonas/Zachary. So this isn't a first for them. (Also it isn't outright obvious that Javier is bisexual, since we needed a writer to confirm it)
Yeah but this is a videogame protagonist which is a no-no to a lot of marketers.
You might think I'm exaggerating but that happens. Ellie from The Last Of Us was denied depiction on the cover art for a while by marketers because "women don't sell".
Telltale's done this before with Walter/Matthew and Jonas/Zachary. So this isn't a first for them. (Also it isn't outright obvious that Javier is bisexual, since we needed a writer to confirm it)
Protagonist is lgbt+ from the beginning:
TOKEN GAY CHARACTER
Protagonist is revealed lgbt+ later on:
PANDERING! SHOEHORN! REEEEEEEE… moreEEEEEE
Protagonist is lgbt+ at all:
WHY DOES IT MATTER? I MEAN, I DON'T CARE AT ALL BUT REALLY THEY SHOULDNT EVEN BE ACKNOWLEDGED EVEERR11!!!!1!
I have 2 gay friends IRL
Edit: Had to unsub from thewalkingdead subreddit because it turned super disappointing.
I guess I am one of the sane people here who don't give a single shit what his sexuality is. But some people here are either "OMG Javi is part of LGBT, telltale respects gay rights! Yay, Javi is a much better character now!" or "fucking tolerance pandering, they just added it in the last second just to look modern!"
Since when does certain sexuality makes character look better or worse?
Sorry, I just dislike it when people are praising/hating on a character because he/she is a part of LGBT community. I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
When you add something that involves politics to things like that, arguments are always bound to happen. People are going to go to far and name calling will be thrown
I guess I am one of the sane people here who don't give a single shit what his sexuality is. But some people here are either "OMG Javi is pa… morert of LGBT, telltale respects gay rights! Yay, Javi is a much better character now!" or "fucking tolerance pandering, they just added it in the last second just to look modern!"
Since when does certain sexuality makes character look better or worse?
Sorry, I just dislike it when people are praising/hating on a character because he/she is a part of LGBT community. I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
I wouldn't say Javier is a much better character as a result of this, but it's certainly uplifting news to me.
I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
In many many countries it isn't. If you live in extremely rural conservative areas like me, you can feel very unsafe for being LGBT+
This allows for people who feel they don't belong to feel more confident about themselves. That's why racial/gender/sexuality rep is important to many communities.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
No reason to be offended. It's an honest question.
I guess I am one of the sane people here who don't give a single shit what his sexuality is. But some people here are either "OMG Javi is pa… morert of LGBT, telltale respects gay rights! Yay, Javi is a much better character now!" or "fucking tolerance pandering, they just added it in the last second just to look modern!"
Since when does certain sexuality makes character look better or worse?
Sorry, I just dislike it when people are praising/hating on a character because he/she is a part of LGBT community. I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
I agree that minorities deserve a place in the video game world, but not when it feels shoehorned in there.
Telltale already did this with Walter and Matthew, and that was done just right. It wasn't forced and nobody was making a big deal out of it.
Another good example would be Bill from TLOU, who was also gay. But it wasn't forced either, he was just a guy who happened to be gay.
Diversity is a word that seems to get tossed around a lot without much meaning other than things like sexual preferences or race. You could have a character that is a doctor, a character that is a body builder, and a character that is unemployed and that would be diverse regardless of their race or sexual preferences.
"OMG THANK YOU TELLTALE"
Yes because diversity is important to many people. To them, it is worth celebrating.
Minorities deserve a pla… morece in the video game world.
"THIS SEASON IS REDEEMED"
Not at all. That being said, nothing wrong with celebrating the positives.
You see this... this is the problem we have. It makes me so damn annoyed.
When a character is LGBT and it's confirmed, straight people will whine about it. No matter what. And I'm so damn sick of it.
They either think it's shoving it down their throats or what's the point of it.
/ protagonist is straight /
certain people: ...
/ protagonist is lgbt+ /
certain people: OH MY GOD can they NOT shove THEIR SEXUALITY DOWN OUR THROATS? ????
Just curious, not to sound aggressive, but can you name me some LGBT+ protagonists who you feel are well executed?
Specifically non-customizable canon LGBT protagonists.
I ask because I find it difficult to discern what makes an "acceptable" LGBT+ protagonist and I like outside perspective.
Diversity is a word that seems to get tossed around a lot without much meaning other than things like sexual preferences or race. You could have a character that is a doctor, a character that is a body builder, and a character that is unemployed and that would be diverse regardless of their race or sexual preferences.
I mean, that is diverse, I agree. But so is sexuality. It's another trait added to the pile. I see what you're trying to say but LGBT can be included I feel.
I agree that minorities deserve a place in the video game world, but not when it feels shoehorned in there.
Telltale already did this wit… moreh Walter and Matthew, and that was done just right. It wasn't forced and nobody was making a big deal out of it.
Another good example would be Bill from TLOU, who was also gay. But it wasn't forced either, he was just a guy who happened to be gay.
Diversity is a word that seems to get tossed around a lot without much meaning other than things like sexual preferences or race. You could have a character that is a doctor, a character that is a body builder, and a character that is unemployed and that would be diverse regardless of their race or sexual preferences.
Count the number of straight protagonists you know. Count the number of non-straight protagonists you know. Now you should have a good idea as to why some might like Javi being bi. It's also not like there aren't topics on plenty of other things in ANF.
I guess I am one of the sane people here who don't give a single shit what his sexuality is. But some people here are either "OMG Javi is pa… morert of LGBT, telltale respects gay rights! Yay, Javi is a much better character now!" or "fucking tolerance pandering, they just added it in the last second just to look modern!"
Since when does certain sexuality makes character look better or worse?
Sorry, I just dislike it when people are praising/hating on a character because he/she is a part of LGBT community. I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
Then again he wasn't anything for the past 4 episodes... just a dude with bat skills, but now the staff is just confirming that Javier, that a lot of people played in their own way, is bisexual... for some reason... makes it look like they just shunned the (majority of) players that flirted with Kate (or Elenoar).
Then again he wasn't anything for the past 4 episodes... just a dude with bat skills, but now the staff is just confirming that Javier, that… more a lot of people played in their own way, is bisexual... for some reason... makes it look like they just shunned the (majority of) players that flirted with Kate (or Elenoar).
This is like Korra all over again.
You see this... this is the problem we have. It makes me so damn annoyed.
When a character is LGBT and it's confirmed, straight people wi… morell whine about it. No matter what. And I'm so damn sick of it.
They either think it's shoving it down their throats or what's the point of it.
And I'm fed up with it. Ugh
Of course being LGBT is considered normal in, some places. But it's still not widely accepted. That's why even something as small as one scene and confirmation that Javi is bi, can mean so much.
It's so important to me and the reason some people get so hyped about it is because, representation and LGBT characters are, few and in-between. Most shows have one token gay character or no gay characters at all. And especially since Javi is bi, it makes it so much better because bi people usually get erased, sometimes the word isn't even said even though it's clear the character is bi.
That's why it matters. And these days, we still need to celebrate being LGBT because some places are still so backwards, and even in western countries, you can still get killed just for being LGBT.
This is a win, at least in my eyes. It's so important and, it really does matter. (And don't worry I'm not offended, I'm just making a point :) )
I guess I am one of the sane people here who don't give a single shit what his sexuality is. But some people here are either "OMG Javi is pa… morert of LGBT, telltale respects gay rights! Yay, Javi is a much better character now!" or "fucking tolerance pandering, they just added it in the last second just to look modern!"
Since when does certain sexuality makes character look better or worse?
Sorry, I just dislike it when people are praising/hating on a character because he/she is a part of LGBT community. I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
makes it look like they just shunned the (majority of) players that flirted with Kate (or Elenoar).
That doesn't make any sense. He's bi, not gay. He still likes women, lol.
Ellie is a lesbian protagonist. She's a character that I fell in love with over the course of playing The Last of Us, and her sexuality really didn't matter to me, even though it was a big part of her standalone story DLC.
Although they aren't really main protagonists, Walter and Matthew from Season 2 of TWD were great as well. In fact, Walter is one of my favorite characters from Season 2. He was developed well even though he had only one episode, and a big part of that development was from his connection to Matthew. You could feel their connection even though they never appeared onscreen together, and it just didn't feel like pandering or forced in any way.
By the way, can you tell me if Javier was a well executed LGBT character?
Just curious, not to sound aggressive, but can you name me some LGBT+ protagonists who you feel are well executed?
Specifically non-custo… moremizable canon LGBT protagonists.
I ask because I find it difficult to discern what makes an "acceptable" LGBT+ protagonist and I like outside perspective.
Diversity is a word that seems to get tossed around a lot without much meaning other than things like sexual preferences or race. You could have a character that is a doctor, a character that is a body builder, and a character that is unemployed and that would be diverse regardless of their race or sexual preferences.
I mean, that is diverse, I agree. But so is sexuality. It's another trait added to the pile. I see what you're trying to say but LGBT can be included I feel.
I'm typing about the character itself, what you're a sexually attracted is what is a part of your character... I have no idea why are you bringing up race into this, there was no plot in a game about that.
Clementine is a woman who is half asian and half black. Is it upsetting? No? Sexuality is no different.
Especially when it's bi and you're literally not limited in any way in who you romance. You can even romance nobody.
I agree with Ellie. I think she is a well executed character. In Left Behind, her relationship was well-developed.
I guess what you are looking for is a well developed relationship established?
But surely we can be more flexible? I just feel it's a bit silly a writer has to be 'tactical' about revealing a character they wrote is LGBT+. They should have the right to express their sexuality just like any straight person, am I wrong?
Also thank you for civil discussion. I find this perspective helpful, genuinely.
Ellie is a lesbian protagonist. She's a character that I fell in love with over the course of playing The Last of Us, and her sexuality real… morely didn't matter to me, even though it was a big part of her standalone story DLC.
Although they aren't really main protagonists, Walter and Matthew from Season 2 of TWD were great as well. In fact, Walter is one of my favorite characters from Season 2. He was developed well even though he had only one episode, and a big part of that development was from his connection to Matthew. You could feel their connection even though they never appeared onscreen together, and it just didn't feel like pandering or forced in any way.
By the way, can you tell me if Javier was a well executed LGBT character?
a character's sexuality is just like a character's race. it is an unchanging part of their character. Javier being bi is just like him being a baseball player or being cuban. It doesn't limit your character choice options.
I'm typing about the character itself, what you're a sexually attracted is what is a part of your character... I have no idea why are you bringing up race into this, there was no plot in a game about that.
It's good to know people remember you exist, especially when the media that does it doesn't make a big deal out of it. Which is the case in the game - nobody comments on it, it is subtle, it is okay. Not everybody is lucky to live in a place where it is okay to be themselves. This kind of thing helps people feel better.
I agree with Ellie. I think she is a well executed character. In Left Behind, her relationship was well-developed.
I guess what you are l… moreooking for is a well developed relationship established?
But surely we can be more flexible? I just feel it's a bit silly a writer has to be 'tactical' about revealing a character they wrote is LGBT+. They should have the right to express their sexuality just like any straight person, am I wrong?
Also thank you for civil discussion. I find this perspective helpful, genuinely.
a character's sexuality is just like a character's race. it is an unchanging part of their character. Javier being bi is just like him being a baseball player or being cuban. It doesn't limit your character choice options.
I personally felt Javier felt very natural. Jesus flirts with him. He chooses to flirt back.
I was surprised a "Javier is Bisexual!" thread even came up on here with polarizing opinions because I personally felt he was just being himself.
When he flirted back I didn't think immediately "wow representation", I thought "hell yeah Javier is a player". Of course, after I finished the episode and the staff confirmed 100% that he is bi, I was happy because that is so rare, but in the moment of the scene I was just so immersed I didn't even process "oh he is a bisexual character".
That to me tells me it was successful, but I'm open to differing opinions. Clearly others felt it was jarring, but it felt perfectly natural to me.
Just a quick question, can you tell me if Javier was a well executed LGBT character?
It's no problem, I love to have civil discussions like this as well. Thanks for not being aggressive like so many others might be.
It's fine to play as a little girl when you are not a little girl, but not as a bisexual man unless you are a bisexual man?
This isn't a role playing game, it is an interactive narrative. You are not playing as yourself anyway. If some aspects of a character being different from you bother you but other aspects do not, you should ponder on why that happens.
I'm typing about the character itself, what you're a sexually attracted is what is a part of your character... I have no idea why are you bringing up race into this, there was no plot in a game about that.
a character's sexuality is just like a character's race. it is an unchanging part of their character.
... are you typing that you can't change your sexuality?
Comments
Somehow, I doubt it.
Telltale's done this before with Walter/Matthew and Jonas/Zachary. So this isn't a first for them. (Also it isn't outright obvious that Javier is bisexual, since we needed a writer to confirm it)
I accidentally upvoted but keep it anyway cuz that did give me a chuckle.
But being serious, I'm proud of the diversity resulting from the choices. The writing, however, is weak in a lot of places I agree. But it is due to the limited time the characters have to develop. I'm sure ANF would have been much better with 2 hour episodes.
People here are forgetting how games are made.
It's amazing.
Gay/Bi protagonists are pretty rare though. A good challenge is to try and think of one that isn't customizable like Shepard from Mass Effect.
Yeah but this is a videogame protagonist which is a no-no to a lot of marketers.
You might think I'm exaggerating but that happens. Ellie from The Last Of Us was denied depiction on the cover art for a while by marketers because "women don't sell".
https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/sexism-controversy-surrounds-last-of-us-box-art/
protagonist is lgbt=, certain people: OMG THANK U TELLTALE THIS SEASON IS REDEEMED U R THE BEST
"OMG THANK YOU TELLTALE"
Yes because diversity is important to many people. To them, it is worth celebrating.
Minorities deserve a place in the video game world.
"THIS SEASON IS REDEEMED"
Not at all. That being said, nothing wrong with celebrating the positives.
I guess I am one of the sane people here who don't give a single shit what his sexuality is. But some people here are either "OMG Javi is part of LGBT, telltale respects gay rights! Yay, Javi is a much better character now!" or "fucking tolerance pandering, they just added it in the last second just to look modern!"
Since when does certain sexuality makes character look better or worse?
Sorry, I just dislike it when people are praising/hating on a character because he/she is a part of LGBT community. I thought we live in a world where homosexuality is now considered normal, not some kind of special privilege/disease.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
When you add something that involves politics to things like that, arguments are always bound to happen. People are going to go to far and name calling will be thrown
I agree, gay people are just normal people. We don't need to give them special treatment. Now Javier will just be known as the "bisexual protagonist".
It's perfectly respectable to be indifferent.
I wouldn't say Javier is a much better character as a result of this, but it's certainly uplifting news to me.
In many many countries it isn't. If you live in extremely rural conservative areas like me, you can feel very unsafe for being LGBT+
This allows for people who feel they don't belong to feel more confident about themselves. That's why racial/gender/sexuality rep is important to many communities.
No reason to be offended. It's an honest question.
I agree that minorities deserve a place in the video game world, but not when it feels shoehorned in there.
Telltale already did this with Walter and Matthew, and that was done just right. It wasn't forced and nobody was making a big deal out of it.
Another good example would be Bill from TLOU, who was also gay. But it wasn't forced either, he was just a guy who happened to be gay.
Diversity is a word that seems to get tossed around a lot without much meaning other than things like sexual preferences or race. You could have a character that is a doctor, a character that is a body builder, and a character that is unemployed and that would be diverse regardless of their race or sexual preferences.
Equal representation isn't special treatment. Regardless...
Just like Tracer is just known as the "gay protagonist", right?
They both have a pre-established character.
You see this... this is the problem we have. It makes me so damn annoyed.
When a character is LGBT and it's confirmed, straight people will whine about it. No matter what. And I'm so damn sick of it.
They either think it's shoving it down their throats or what's the point of it.
And I'm fed up with it. Ugh
Just curious, not to sound aggressive, but can you name me some LGBT+ protagonists who you feel are well executed?
Specifically non-customizable canon LGBT protagonists.
I ask because I find it difficult to discern what makes an "acceptable" LGBT+ protagonist and I like outside perspective.
I mean, that is diverse, I agree. But so is sexuality. It's another trait added to the pile. I see what you're trying to say but LGBT can be included I feel.
Count the number of straight protagonists you know. Count the number of non-straight protagonists you know. Now you should have a good idea as to why some might like Javi being bi. It's also not like there aren't topics on plenty of other things in ANF.
Then again he wasn't anything for the past 4 episodes... just a dude with bat skills, but now the staff is just confirming that Javier, that a lot of people played in their own way, is bisexual... for some reason... makes it look like they just shunned the (majority of) players that flirted with Kate (or Elenoar).
This is like Korra all over again.
Acknowledging they exist isn't giving them special treatment.
I severely doubt 'bisexual protagonist' will overtake 'Dude who screwed up Clementine's hair!'
That doesn't make any sense. He's bi, not gay. He still likes women, lol.
It's almost as though like a lot of players preferred their own character path in a story-choice based game...
Weird
Of course being LGBT is considered normal in, some places. But it's still not widely accepted. That's why even something as small as one scene and confirmation that Javi is bi, can mean so much.
It's so important to me and the reason some people get so hyped about it is because, representation and LGBT characters are, few and in-between. Most shows have one token gay character or no gay characters at all. And especially since Javi is bi, it makes it so much better because bi people usually get erased, sometimes the word isn't even said even though it's clear the character is bi.
That's why it matters. And these days, we still need to celebrate being LGBT because some places are still so backwards, and even in western countries, you can still get killed just for being LGBT.
This is a win, at least in my eyes. It's so important and, it really does matter. (And don't worry I'm not offended, I'm just making a point :) )
Clementine is a woman who is half asian and half black. Is it upsetting? No? Sexuality is no different.
Especially when it's bi and you're literally not limited in any way in who you romance. You can even romance nobody.
It's weird how that option came up now...
What if people wanted to seduce Tripp or that German guy?
I hate these last minute hooks.
Yeah I agree, representation is good. But what I meant is that some people are a little bit obsessed over it.
And Javi is bi? That's... a part of who he is. So like, the choices are there for everything else. But, you can't change the core of a character.
Ellie is a lesbian protagonist. She's a character that I fell in love with over the course of playing The Last of Us, and her sexuality really didn't matter to me, even though it was a big part of her standalone story DLC.
Although they aren't really main protagonists, Walter and Matthew from Season 2 of TWD were great as well. In fact, Walter is one of my favorite characters from Season 2. He was developed well even though he had only one episode, and a big part of that development was from his connection to Matthew. You could feel their connection even though they never appeared onscreen together, and it just didn't feel like pandering or forced in any way.
By the way, can you tell me if Javier was a well executed LGBT character?
He can't romance Tripp just like he can't romance Ava. He hits on Eleanor and Jesus. Man and woman.
I'm typing about the character itself, what you're a sexually attracted is what is a part of your character... I have no idea why are you bringing up race into this, there was no plot in a game about that.
I agree with Ellie. I think she is a well executed character. In Left Behind, her relationship was well-developed.
I guess what you are looking for is a well developed relationship established?
But surely we can be more flexible? I just feel it's a bit silly a writer has to be 'tactical' about revealing a character they wrote is LGBT+. They should have the right to express their sexuality just like any straight person, am I wrong?
Also thank you for civil discussion. I find this perspective helpful, genuinely.
a character's sexuality is just like a character's race. it is an unchanging part of their character. Javier being bi is just like him being a baseball player or being cuban. It doesn't limit your character choice options.
It's good to know people remember you exist, especially when the media that does it doesn't make a big deal out of it. Which is the case in the game - nobody comments on it, it is subtle, it is okay. Not everybody is lucky to live in a place where it is okay to be themselves. This kind of thing helps people feel better.
Just a quick question, can you tell me if Javier was a well executed LGBT character?
It's no problem, I love to have civil discussions like this as well. Thanks for not being aggressive like so many others might be.
[removed]
... are you typing that you can't change your sexuality?
I personally felt Javier felt very natural. Jesus flirts with him. He chooses to flirt back.
I was surprised a "Javier is Bisexual!" thread even came up on here with polarizing opinions because I personally felt he was just being himself.
When he flirted back I didn't think immediately "wow representation", I thought "hell yeah Javier is a player". Of course, after I finished the episode and the staff confirmed 100% that he is bi, I was happy because that is so rare, but in the moment of the scene I was just so immersed I didn't even process "oh he is a bisexual character".
That to me tells me it was successful, but I'm open to differing opinions. Clearly others felt it was jarring, but it felt perfectly natural to me.
It's fine to play as a little girl when you are not a little girl, but not as a bisexual man unless you are a bisexual man?
This isn't a role playing game, it is an interactive narrative. You are not playing as yourself anyway. If some aspects of a character being different from you bother you but other aspects do not, you should ponder on why that happens.
I'm going to respectfully disengage here, as this will lead into a debate about the concepts of sexuality.
That being said, thank you for bringing your opinion forward as it offers me different perspectives.
Hopefully regardless on either of our opinion, Javier will continue to develop.