Ep. 3 Joan vs. Ep.4 Joan

edited July 2017 in The Walking Dead

Gonna copy @ps3gamer095's thread here:

As you know, Diplomacy Leader Joan underwent a severe shift in characterization between episodes, going from a somewhat refined but desperate extremist to an audacious political gambler with a sadistic streak. I will say that while I found some value/enjoyment in both characterizations, I don’t like how she was just reduced to a straw hypocrite when she actually had some dimension to her beforehand.

Which characterization would you have preferred and why? How would you have approached her character as a whole?

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Comments

  • If mean about villain, Carver and Randall better

  • I think the change in character is genuine. In episode 3 she is accommodating and polite like always, until she realizes that the raids are being discovered and she begins making moves to secure that she emerges victorious.

    Like Lingard said "despite her pleasantries, Joan's a cruel bitch"

  • So, you prefer her in Ep 4 then?

    Poink posted: »

    If mean about villain, Carver and Randall better

  • Keep in mind that Lingard says this in the episode where said shift happens.

    I think the change in character is genuine. In episode 3 she is accommodating and polite like always, until she realizes that the raids are

  • edited July 2017

    I found her to be underwhelming in both episodes, though it would've been cool to have her as a polite bitch, like Umbridge in Harry Potter. The polite tone makes the edge cut deeper.

  • Well, I think so

    DabigRG posted: »

    So, you prefer her in Ep 4 then?

  • To be honest, I found Joan's portrayal poor in both episodes. She had no presence as a villain and despite arguably being the one responsible for Marianna's death, I found it difficult to even hate her. She was just another character I couldn't feel anything for.

    Though were I forced to choose, I'd go with how she was in episode 4, since in that instance she did something impactful, at least for ANF's standards anyway, and was bringing direct trouble to Javier.

  • edited July 2017

    despite arguably being the one responsible for Marianna's death

    Can I just say don't get this at all? I mean, unless you wanna say the junkyard was a break area specifically for between raids, Badger killing her had literally nothing to do with her.

    On a bigger scale however, I'd also like to note that it was implied that Badger was increasingly acting outside of his orders, hence her reaction to determinately finding out he essentially tortured Francine and destroyed Prescott. He also might've been considering overthrowing the Council at one point if one unused line is any indication.

    Though were I forced to choose, I'd go with how she was in episode 4, since in that instance she did something impactful, at least for ANF's standards anyway, and was bringing direct trouble to Javier.

    Fair point. Can't just get rid of the "hearing" scene after all.

    OneWayNoWay posted: »

    To be honest, I found Joan's portrayal poor in both episodes. She had no presence as a villain and despite arguably being the one responsib

  • She was just one of those meh characters to me. As @VengefulKenny said, her character change is understandable as her paranoia nd true nature shows upon being discovered and exposed for the raids. In episode 4 she was at least menacing and a threat and in 3 she just came off as a villain sue. Honestly I don't really consider her a "main villain" with what how she was scuffed to the side in episode 5 and doesn't have a real in depth character about her.

  • edited October 2017

    in 3 she just came off as a villain sue.

    ...Buh?

    Clemenem posted: »

    She was just one of those meh characters to me. As @VengefulKenny said, her character change is understandable as her paranoia nd true natur

  • I think we just got to know her better.

  • Don't you mean "wish," not think?

    I think we just got to know her better.

  • No I mean she was playing us for a sucker the whole time. She seemed all right at first glance, but ended up being just another crazy.

    DabigRG posted: »

    Don't you mean "wish," not think?

  • edited July 2017

    I guess that would've been a way to reconcile it in a cohesive manner, but the big issue is that unlike Carver, it seemed like Joan was two completely different characters unless you got her line about another long winter coming up and even that can seem facetious due to her different attitude.

    No I mean she was playing us for a sucker the whole time. She seemed all right at first glance, but ended up being just another crazy.

  • The line gives an insight into her character from someone who knew her for a long time. It was one of a couple comments about Joan, it's not like he said, "Oh man I cant believe Joan betrayed David" he's just like yeah she's a bitch.

    DabigRG posted: »

    Keep in mind that Lingard says this in the episode where said shift happens.

  • I would've preferred that she wasn't a villain at all and instead it was the soldiers themselves that chose to raid the other settlements, They would be plotting a rebellion against the council due to their inactivity towards the upcoming winter. Badger could've easily replaced Joan during David's execution and not much would've been different.

  • I know that was the intent. My point is that line may not have been there, at least in that context, had the writer(s) of Above the Law written that scene.

    The line gives an insight into her character from someone who knew her for a long time. It was one of a couple comments about Joan, it's not like he said, "Oh man I cant believe Joan betrayed David" he's just like yeah she's a bitch.

  • Funnily enough, it is implied both in game and in unused dialogue that Badger was getting increasingly out of hand for a while and may have even been intending to overthrow the council at some point (or more specifically, getting tired of the rules.)

    Cocoa2736 posted: »

    I would've preferred that she wasn't a villain at all and instead it was the soldiers themselves that chose to raid the other settlements, T

  • I think Randall's probably the best villian made or Norma if you count her. Going back to this topic, Ep 4 Joan is better since Ep 3 Joan was basically the kind old lady which turn out to be a bad person and we got that with Brenda already.

  • I really want Joan to appear in Episode 5 because I want to see more of her actions. She barely appear in episode 4. But yeah, I can't believe that was scrapped, especially that we can choose Joan's fate at the end of the episode but that was scrapped too...

  • Ep 3 I thought she would be a threat but turns out in ep 4 she's worse than carver

  • Eh, fair point. But I like Brenda....

    Dan10 posted: »

    I think Randall's probably the best villian made or Norma if you count her. Going back to this topic, Ep 4 Joan is better since Ep 3 Joan was basically the kind old lady which turn out to be a bad person and we got that with Brenda already.

  • edited July 2017

    she's worse than carver

    Uh....:confused:

    Ep 3 I thought she would be a threat but turns out in ep 4 she's worse than carver

  • edited July 2017

    In episode 3 she was about to be the only character in ANF I could call decent, she had some depth, she showed to not enjoy what she did but you could see she truly believed it was necessary to ensure her people's survival... then episode 4 happened, and, honestly, I have no idea. Her first scene was ok, on par with what she showed to be in episode 3, but the last 10 minutes were just a shit show. Her actions made no sense, she was being sadistic out of the blue, she showed to be cunning but lets the armed Javier unrestrained right in front of her (seriously what the fuck); you could see from miles away the little effort Telltale put into that scene, from Joan's perspective, there was no logical end goal there and this really goes against the cunning person she showed to be in episode 3. Just like that Telltale destroyed the one thing I could consider redeemable in this Season.

    Oh and let's not forget how she, the main antagonist, just disappears to never be seen again in episode 5. What a complete shitshow of season.

  • edited July 2017

    In episode 3 she was about to be the only character in ANF I could call decent
    Just like that Telltale destroyed the one thing I could consider redeemable in this Season.

    Ooh, you poor thing. Sorry to hear that.

    she had some depth, she showed to not enjoy what she did but you could see she truly believed it was necessary to ensure her people's survival... then episode 4 happened, and, honestly, I have no idea.

    Same here.

    Her first scene was ok, on par with what she showed to be in episode 3,

    Eeh...I'd contest that just a bit.

    I mean, she definitely had the feeling of being somewhat in the right and she does determinately inform the Bros. that there's another long winter coming up, but she was otherwise smirking and talking like a bitchy crook.
    "You're not gonna be a "problem," are you?"

    but lets the armed Javier unrestrained right in front of her (seriously what the fuck);

    Which is especially stupid if you think Eleanor told her the whole plan.

    Oh and let's not forget how she, the main antagonist, just disappears to never be seen again in episode 5. What a complete shitshow of season.

    Yeah, I think that was the first sign that I should just sign off and coast through the rest of the episode, with Ava's death being the point where I just went "...Alright. Okay, let's move on. Get this over with.".

    In episode 3 she was about to be the only character in ANF I could call decent, she had some depth, she showed to not enjoy what she did but

  • edited July 2017

    Can I just say don't get this at all? I mean, unless you wanna say the junkyard was a break area specifically for between raids, Badger killing her had literally nothing to do with her.

    Well, he was under Joan's command. Since she's the one who was mainly behind the raids and orchestrating them in secret, she holds a certain amount of responsibility for those she chose to let get involved. While Badger might not have been under her direct orders when Marianna was killed, I do find it highly likely to think that someone like Joan, who was shown herself to be a wee bit of sadist, would have purposely selected an out and out psychopath like Badger to do the jobs she wanted done without remorse. And in that regard, you could blame her for letting someone like him loose.

    DabigRG posted: »

    despite arguably being the one responsible for Marianna's death Can I just say don't get this at all? I mean, unless you wanna say t

  • Hm...granted.

    Though I'm mainly addressing her original characterization, you can still chalk it up to a somewhat deluded "for the greater good" mentality as well.

    OneWayNoWay posted: »

    Can I just say don't get this at all? I mean, unless you wanna say the junkyard was a break area specifically for between raids, Badger kill

  • Umm I still don't understand why people said she worse than Carver. Did I miss out something about her? Why don't you give example of her actions as evidence that she worse than Carver? I just thought she just power-hungry or something like that...

    Ep 3 I thought she would be a threat but turns out in ep 4 she's worse than carver

  • Admittedly, that would've been something a neat middleground.

    Thematt9001 posted: »

    I found her to be underwhelming in both episodes, though it would've been cool to have her as a polite bitch, like Umbridge in Harry Potter. The polite tone makes the edge cut deeper.

  • K.

    Poink posted: »

    Well, I think so

  • Yeah, me too. For some reason, I imagined this bizzare scene where Ava and Gabe respectively try to take her on physically.

    And my plan early on was to throw her in a cell to stand trial for her crimes.

    OsoroS posted: »

    I really want Joan to appear in Episode 5 because I want to see more of her actions. She barely appear in episode 4. But yeah, I can't belie

  • Yeah, I don't get that either.

    OsoroS posted: »

    Umm I still don't understand why people said she worse than Carver. Did I miss out something about her? Why don't you give example of her actions as evidence that she worse than Carver? I just thought she just power-hungry or something like that...

  • deja vu

    DabigRG posted: »

    I guess that would've been a way to reconcile it in a cohesive manner, but the big issue is that unlike Carver, it seemed like Joan was two

  • Neither do I

    DabigRG posted: »

    Yeah, I don't get that either.

  • Whaddya mean?

    deja vu

  • You're the one who said it, dude. :lol:

    Neither do I

  • I think the episode 3 self is way better. She seems smart, manipulative and cool-headed, like a leader should be, while in episode 4 she is turned into a one dimensional villain who screams things like "I can do whatever I want!".

  • Waaa you're back

    DabigRG posted: »

    You're the one who said it, dude.

  • when you edited it said I had a new reply.

    DabigRG posted: »

    Whaddya mean?

  • Oh, yeah that happens. I think it's to let you know there might be something new for you to read without having to bump the thread itself.

    when you edited it said I had a new reply.

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