Ep. 3 Joan vs. Ep.4 Joan
Gonna copy @ps3gamer095's thread here:
As you know, Diplomacy Leader Joan underwent a severe shift in characterization between episodes, going from a somewhat refined but desperate extremist to an audacious political gambler with a sadistic streak. I will say that while I found some value/enjoyment in both characterizations, I don’t like how she was just reduced to a straw hypocrite when she actually had some dimension to her beforehand.
Which characterization would you have preferred and why? How would you have approached her character as a whole?
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
If mean about villain, Carver and Randall better
I think the change in character is genuine. In episode 3 she is accommodating and polite like always, until she realizes that the raids are being discovered and she begins making moves to secure that she emerges victorious.
Like Lingard said "despite her pleasantries, Joan's a cruel bitch"
So, you prefer her in Ep 4 then?
Keep in mind that Lingard says this in the episode where said shift happens.
I found her to be underwhelming in both episodes, though it would've been cool to have her as a polite bitch, like Umbridge in Harry Potter. The polite tone makes the edge cut deeper.
Well, I think so
To be honest, I found Joan's portrayal poor in both episodes. She had no presence as a villain and despite arguably being the one responsible for Marianna's death, I found it difficult to even hate her. She was just another character I couldn't feel anything for.
Though were I forced to choose, I'd go with how she was in episode 4, since in that instance she did something impactful, at least for ANF's standards anyway, and was bringing direct trouble to Javier.
Can I just say don't get this at all? I mean, unless you wanna say the junkyard was a break area specifically for between raids, Badger killing her had literally nothing to do with her.
On a bigger scale however, I'd also like to note that it was implied that Badger was increasingly acting outside of his orders, hence her reaction to determinately finding out he essentially tortured Francine and destroyed Prescott. He also might've been considering overthrowing the Council at one point if one unused line is any indication.
Fair point. Can't just get rid of the "hearing" scene after all.
She was just one of those meh characters to me. As @VengefulKenny said, her character change is understandable as her paranoia nd true nature shows upon being discovered and exposed for the raids. In episode 4 she was at least menacing and a threat and in 3 she just came off as a villain sue. Honestly I don't really consider her a "main villain" with what how she was scuffed to the side in episode 5 and doesn't have a real in depth character about her.
...Buh?
I think we just got to know her better.
Don't you mean "wish," not think?
No I mean she was playing us for a sucker the whole time. She seemed all right at first glance, but ended up being just another crazy.
I guess that would've been a way to reconcile it in a cohesive manner, but the big issue is that unlike Carver, it seemed like Joan was two completely different characters unless you got her line about another long winter coming up and even that can seem facetious due to her different attitude.
The line gives an insight into her character from someone who knew her for a long time. It was one of a couple comments about Joan, it's not like he said, "Oh man I cant believe Joan betrayed David" he's just like yeah she's a bitch.
I would've preferred that she wasn't a villain at all and instead it was the soldiers themselves that chose to raid the other settlements, They would be plotting a rebellion against the council due to their inactivity towards the upcoming winter. Badger could've easily replaced Joan during David's execution and not much would've been different.
I know that was the intent. My point is that line may not have been there, at least in that context, had the writer(s) of Above the Law written that scene.
Funnily enough, it is implied both in game and in unused dialogue that Badger was getting increasingly out of hand for a while and may have even been intending to overthrow the council at some point (or more specifically, getting tired of the rules.)
I think Randall's probably the best villian made or Norma if you count her. Going back to this topic, Ep 4 Joan is better since Ep 3 Joan was basically the kind old lady which turn out to be a bad person and we got that with Brenda already.
I really want Joan to appear in Episode 5 because I want to see more of her actions. She barely appear in episode 4. But yeah, I can't believe that was scrapped, especially that we can choose Joan's fate at the end of the episode but that was scrapped too...
Ep 3 I thought she would be a threat but turns out in ep 4 she's worse than carver
Eh, fair point. But I like Brenda....
Uh....
In episode 3 she was about to be the only character in ANF I could call decent, she had some depth, she showed to not enjoy what she did but you could see she truly believed it was necessary to ensure her people's survival... then episode 4 happened, and, honestly, I have no idea. Her first scene was ok, on par with what she showed to be in episode 3, but the last 10 minutes were just a shit show. Her actions made no sense, she was being sadistic out of the blue, she showed to be cunning but lets the armed Javier unrestrained right in front of her (seriously what the fuck); you could see from miles away the little effort Telltale put into that scene, from Joan's perspective, there was no logical end goal there and this really goes against the cunning person she showed to be in episode 3. Just like that Telltale destroyed the one thing I could consider redeemable in this Season.
Oh and let's not forget how she, the main antagonist, just disappears to never be seen again in episode 5. What a complete shitshow of season.
Ooh, you poor thing. Sorry to hear that.
Same here.
Eeh...I'd contest that just a bit.
I mean, she definitely had the feeling of being somewhat in the right and she does determinately inform the Bros. that there's another long winter coming up, but she was otherwise smirking and talking like a bitchy crook.
"You're not gonna be a "problem," are you?"
Which is especially stupid if you think Eleanor told her the whole plan.
Yeah, I think that was the first sign that I should just sign off and coast through the rest of the episode, with Ava's death being the point where I just went "...Alright. Okay, let's move on. Get this over with.".
Well, he was under Joan's command. Since she's the one who was mainly behind the raids and orchestrating them in secret, she holds a certain amount of responsibility for those she chose to let get involved. While Badger might not have been under her direct orders when Marianna was killed, I do find it highly likely to think that someone like Joan, who was shown herself to be a wee bit of sadist, would have purposely selected an out and out psychopath like Badger to do the jobs she wanted done without remorse. And in that regard, you could blame her for letting someone like him loose.
Hm...granted.
Though I'm mainly addressing her original characterization, you can still chalk it up to a somewhat deluded "for the greater good" mentality as well.
Umm I still don't understand why people said she worse than Carver. Did I miss out something about her? Why don't you give example of her actions as evidence that she worse than Carver? I just thought she just power-hungry or something like that...
Admittedly, that would've been something a neat middleground.
K.
Yeah, me too. For some reason, I imagined this bizzare scene where Ava and Gabe respectively try to take her on physically.
And my plan early on was to throw her in a cell to stand trial for her crimes.
Yeah, I don't get that either.
deja vu
Neither do I
Whaddya mean?
You're the one who said it, dude.
I think the episode 3 self is way better. She seems smart, manipulative and cool-headed, like a leader should be, while in episode 4 she is turned into a one dimensional villain who screams things like "I can do whatever I want!".
Waaa you're back
when you edited it said I had a new reply.
Oh, yeah that happens. I think it's to let you know there might be something new for you to read without having to bump the thread itself.