Actually, LucasArts "revolutionized the genre" by....ready for it?...MAKING GAMES EASIER.
There's a difference between hard and ridiculous. Anyone here ever played LSL2? At some point in the game, you must abandon a cruise ship and head for an island. You can carry a certain amount of items with you, if memory serves, and you have to somehow predict which ones you'll need. If you don't pick up the necessary ones, later on in the game you'll die or blow it in various ways.
That is not a challenge, that's horrible game design.
That people consider LucasArts some bastion of difficult adventure game design is pretty hilarious to me. They were the ones that trimmed away conventions, for better or for worse, to make games more accessible.
I don't think anyone considers LucasArts adventures to be the most difficult games out there. It's just that people have put LucasArts on a pedestal because of the quality of the games they released. And with good reason.
Personally, I don't mind dying in games, or failing because I did something stupid. One of my favorite adventure games ever is Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers and there are many ways for you to die in that game. The difference, however, is that in those instances, the death can be justified and it's not because you did something wrong earlier on.
What LucasArts did and other companies also adopted later on, was not to let the player move on with the story after having missed something they will need.
There's a difference between hard and ridiculous. Anyone here ever played LSL2? At some point in the game, you must abandon a cruise ship and head for an island. You can carry a certain amount of items with you, if memory serves, and you have to somehow predict which ones you'll need. If you don't pick up the necessary ones, later on in the game you'll die or blow it in various ways.
i did as with (almost) all the other games of that time. Even Maniac Mansion, if i recall right, had a "forced choose" at the very beginning (the photographer). Personally it's not a real problem to me. Anyway these were other times.
What i mean is that the extremism in both ways is wrong. People demand for harder games not for impossible ones and, for how are todays ADVs realized, i agree with them.
What i mean is that the extremism in both ways is wrong. People demand for harder games not for impossible ones and, for how are todays ADVs realized, i agree with them.
No disagreements here. I, too, am hoping for a couple of harder puzzles in later chapters, but my biggest beef with many posters here is that they were expecting them from the get-go.
Playing an episodic game is entirely new territory for me, so maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reserve final judgment until I have finished the whole game.
I don't see each episode as a game on its own, so I won't nag about episode X being easier than episode Y. I see it as a currently unfinished game, and we've only played two fifths of it so far.
If the end result is not up to my standards I'll have no problem voicing my honest opinion, but until then, I'll be patient and wait to see what TT have in store for us in the future.
For people with a taste for some anachronistic "difficulty", check out A Vampyre Story. True, this game is an artistic masterpiece, but it comes with all sorts of adventure games faux pas:
Insane pixel hunt --
Without any visual cues and without anyone telling you, you're supposed to fetch a perfume bottle underneath a bed.
Deliberately withholding vital information --
You have to make magic potions out of soda pop. You're sure you get the combo absolutely right, but the spell always fizzled. Turned out that the potion can't be made with diet soda, and that you have to "undiet" it by adding sugar. Strange thing that the potion handbook never mentions that.
Labyrinthine twists of logic --
It's snowing outside and you're trapped within a locked hut. Here is your way to freedom: flare up the flames in the fireplace with perfume. The fire will melt the snow on the roof, and the water will collect in a bucket beneath a rain-gully. Before the water freezes again, however, you have to knock the bucket over by passing some tool through a small crack beneath the door. The water then flows into the hut, and you can suck it up with a fire bellow. Put out the fire so that, you, as a vampire, can transform into a bat and fly out through the fireplace
No disagreements here. I, too, am hoping for a couple of harder puzzles in later chapters, but my biggest beef with many posters here is that they were expecting them from the get-go.
Playing an episodic game is entirely new territory for me, so maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reserve final judgment until I have finished the whole game.
I don't see each episode as a game on its own, so I won't nag about episode X being easier than episode Y. I see it as a currently unfinished game, and we've only played two fifths of it so far.
If the end result is not up to my standards I'll have no problem voicing my honest opinion, but until then, I'll be patient and wait to see what TT have in store for us in the future.
that's a good position that i totally respect. i'm new to this kind of games too and if i should judge S&M season 1 as 5 (ok 6, abe was great still alone) different mini games i would say that it was not so great but played all together was really funny and somewhat "complete".
i think that episodic release is challenging on its own because of how people hurl to each one, but i think that puzzles are fundamental because an adventure is built on them. if a certain number of people says that these puzzles are too much easy, i think that they should be taken more seriously (but this does not mean that their word is the one) than on any other aspect of the game (sound, graphics, engine, controls etc. but not for the plot).
I like how they bash Sierra games to the ground hah
It's because they deserve to be bashed.
In those days it was essentially LucasArts vs. Sierra. LucasArts produced adventure games sparingly, but they quality tested every game to hell and back and did their best to offer the best gaming experience. Sierra on the other hand chose quantity over quality and pumped out those "quest" games one after another. The kicker was that adventure gamers bought them all even though they knew the experience will leave a lot to be desired - even a lousy adventure game was better then no adventure game at all. Still, getting a new LucasArts game was much more special then buying a new Sierra installment - it was like a difference between a superbly prepared gourmet meal and killing hunger with an undercooked hamburger from that greasy joint down the road.
Of course, as a result, LucasArts adventures (and their basic principles of game design) made adventure games easier. But this is a good thing; some things that were accepted in the early 90's just wouldn't fly today. Just look how people balk if some bug surfaces and they have to replay a part of a game; imagine if replaying again and again was an actual feature. I would be the first to be done with the adventure genre altogether...
P.S. Noone got the monkey wrench reference? Seriously?
Anyone else think that if ToMI had the "verbs" interface from CMI, the difficulty would increase a notch?
It may, but that's not the point. Telltale has created some excellent puzzles through their single click interface (and that without the possibility of combining items or even examining them): just browse through your Sam & Max collection and you'll find plenty of good examples.
And to clarify my point of view one last time, I'd like to see some harder puzzles in the future chapters, but that's not what I'm currently complaining about (also because I'm almost sure they will be there). All I'm saying is that puzzles in Spinner Cay were uninteresting, predictable and unsatisfying: it's not just a matter of difficulty.
I didn't find it challenging, but I don't like having to backtrack to all places just to find one little inventory part which I overlooked. Isn't hard, just lazyness on my part.. I really just wanna know the story and "interesting" characters. I couldn't care if I would have to shoot my way through a story or find items and combine them, but I guess that's just me heh.
For people with a taste for some anachronistic "difficulty", check out A Vampyre Story. True, this game is an artistic masterpiece, but it comes with all sorts of adventure games faux pas:
Insane pixel hunt --
Without any visual cues and without anyone telling you, you're supposed to fetch a perfume bottle underneath a bed.
Deliberately withholding vital information --
You have to make magic potions out of soda pop. You're sure you get the combo absolutely right, but the spell always fizzled. Turned out that the potion can't be made with diet soda, and that you have to "undiet" it by adding sugar. Strange thing that the potion handbook never mentions that.
Labyrinthine twists of logic --
It's snowing outside and you're trapped within a locked hut. Here is your way to freedom: flare up the flames in the fireplace with perfume. The fire will melt the snow on the roof, and the water will collect in a bucket beneath a rain-gully. Before the water freezes again, however, you have to knock the bucket over by passing some tool through a small crack beneath the door. The water then flows into the hut, and you can suck it up with a fire bellow. Put out the fire so that, you, as a vampire, can transform into a bat and fly out through the fireplace
It was released at the end of last year.
You can find more details at http://www.vampyrestory-game.com/.
I got it for Mac a couple of weeks ago (actually, the "Labyrinthine twists of logic" example from Randulf's post, which was the game's demo, is what sold me on the game!) and it's beautiful, but quite hard (I have played for a few hours already and don't feel like I'm making much progress - but my inventory's filling up nicely!).
I might be too used to the (perfect) level of difficulty of Telltale's games for a game like this one, but I'll definitely keep at it (and hopefully finish it before the release of its sequel).
I think the difficulty level in Telltale games is OK for me. I really hate getting stuck in a game with no logical course of action. Every puzzle in a Telltale game seems to have a logical solution and that's good because you don't get stuck.
If you're a logical person, then you might find them easy to solve - but that's only half of what I play for - I like the experience of exploring too and listening to the dialogue and watching the action. I think the Tales of Monkey Island games have so far satsified me with their mix of puzzles and gameplay, and the length of the games has also been satisfying. Usually each episode takes about 4 hours for me to complete, and that's the kind of length I'm OK with. More would be great, but I haven't ever found myself thinking "that's too short".
I think I'll believe all the people who are saying that each game will increase in difficulty as it is released. It's good design, as the easier first chapter pulls people in and then they continue to be entertained as future episodes get more challenging. I think someone once stated they didn't want to make a super-hard chapter 1 and put casual gamers off buying it.
I recently bought Secret of Monkey Island Special Edition and completed the entire game in about 4 hours. That's the whole thing - not just the individual chapters. That's even taking into account the bits I forgot and how to complete all the puzzles (I don't remember anything from 20 years ago!). When you look at it that way, Tales of Monkey Island is five times longer and has more to enjoy.
i have the feeling i'll be buying this tonight lol
You might also be interested in knowing that the makers of "A Vampyre Story", Autumn Moon Entertainment, are going to release a game called " The Ghost Pirates of Vooju Island". Here's a link to that game's official (and currently quite "barren") website, here's an Adventure Gamers preview and here's a link to a trailer that premiered a few days ago.
Enjoy!
Ha ha im just playing a Vampire Story right now and the difficult is good. I agree on some things Randulf said (the perfume under the bed was tricky) but about the diet soda Mona said it didnt work because it was diet.
Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.
And one last thing, if people complain about being easy its because thats the only thing we can do.
People that found the game hard can always get the hints up, there is solution for that. But the ones that found it easy cant make anything, but wish the next one will be harder. And if it isnt we can only complain again.
You might also be interested in knowing that the makers of "A Vampyre Story", Autumn Moon Entertainment, are going to release a game called " The Ghost Pirates of Vooju Island". Here's a link to that game's official (and currently quite "barren") website, here's an Adventure Gamers preview and here's a link to a trailer that premiered a few days ago.
Enjoy!
Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.
That crossed my mind too... there aren't many moments that make you feel like a genius for working a puzzle out.
Personally, I took my time and played really for the fun, went into the game and tried to solve it with no hints at all. Took me around 4 days since the game was out.
I think more hard than that will just be annoying. The game is is not too easy, it's fine. The chapters are to short if you ask me, and I really would love to see new character models and not reused ones.
I'm really glad there are many items in the inventory though! That was a real weak point in Sam & Max.
Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.
That crossed my mind too... there aren't many moments that make you feel like a genius for working a puzzle out.
yeah as soon as i realized i needed the pearl i was also contemplating how to pry it open...only to be disappointed by it just giving you the pearl =/
Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.
And one last thing, if people complain about being easy its because thats the only thing we can do.
People that found the game hard can always get the hints up, there is solution for that. But the ones that found it easy cant make anything, but wish the next one will be harder. And if it isnt we can only complain again.
yes exactly.
In the first episode, the cheese puzzle is a perfect example of a great Monkey Island-ish puzzle. But most of the others were a "straight line". For example, when you have to put figure in ink, the reporter could say something like - Hey, don't touch that i need it for printing. So, you would need to make some plan - you learn what he likes or wants by talking to him and work in that way, or i don't know, drop the sand in his eyes or just use the three-headed monkey line... something, to make the puzzles more interesting.
The tar puzzle at the end is actually a good puzzle and not in a predictable style. Well you could argue that he could put the hand in it right away, but there can be a logical explanation because hand is thinking on its own and you need a different approach to put it there, even by some random events, which is still in area of your actions. This is not a bad writing at all.
One more thing, it could be discussed that lack of a "look" option puts the game in a blend click-through, even in a terms of a difficulty. Without a look option which could be done by right clicking for example, you can't make a puzzles which require of you to inspect something in order to progress and find out some more information which will help you to solve the puzzle, use that piece information and so on. This is another reason why puzzles seem to look straightforward, because look option is one of the strongest tradition of adventure games.
About logical/illogical: my statement of logic being overrated was something of a boutade, I admit it... The game world has to be consistent, of course, and the cause-effect connections must be transparent to the player; but, again, there is a right equilibrium, and a Monkey Island game needs a twisted logic of its own to be properly fun. More examples from TSoMI:
- Grog becomes a metal eroding substance only when you need it to free Otis (illogical);
- you give the rat repellent to Otis (logical, the character asks for it) to get Aunt Tillie's cake, which contains a file (twisted);
- you give bananas to the monkey (logical), but you need the monkey to keep the Giant Monkey Head gate open (twisted, unexpected);
etc.
But all those things you said were actually really logical not really twisted at all:
The Important Looking Pirates say early on that grog eats through metal, and when you get to the bar there are lots of empty mugs hinting that you should perhaps do something with them.
It's pretty common knowledge that you hide files in cakes for prisoners (which SoMI plays on really well) and they even tell you that the cake is really heavy.
As for the gate, you know you need something/one to pull the nose and you can see a hungry monkey who follows you when you feed it.
In the first episode, the cheese puzzle is a perfect example of a great Monkey Island-ish puzzle.
And i solved it instantly, because after two decades of playing monkey island games, my brain has been warped to nearly instantly solve slightly wacky puzzles like that. And i think thats the real problem most people are having - i bet pretty much everyone who says the game is too easy has played several other monkey games, and they just managed to pick up some monkey style puzzle solving skills up along the way. (Or are like others have said simply adventure game vets in general. Of course, i started off with Zork, so, i guess maybe its built into me too?)
I think the difficulty is just fine the way it is. I wouldnt mind the collectors edition DVD adding a few more extra puzzles to appease those who have voiced concern, (Mega Monkey Mode Ver. 2!) but im very happy with the few hours over a couple of days gameplay i get out of each episode.
In the first episode, the cheese puzzle is a perfect example of a great Monkey Island-ish puzzle. But most of the others were a "straight line". For example, when you have to put figure in ink, the reporter could say something like - Hey, don't touch that i need it for printing. So, you would need to make some plan - you learn what he likes or wants by talking to him and work in that way, or i don't know, drop the sand in his eyes or just use the three-headed monkey line... something, to make the puzzles more interesting.
I can completely agree with this.
Obvious puzzle is unsatisfying because, well, it's obvious. And not a puzzle at all. If you have to climb on the tree and there's a ladder nearby, you don't really feel pleased with yourself by figuring out you have to take the ladder, place it on the tree and climb it.
MI2 (the hard version) is a perfect benchmark for this, especially the Chapter 2 with those map pieces. You see a map piece has stuck on a cliff below you and you realize you can "fish" it out (which requires getting a fishing pole first). As the Guybrush reels it in a seagull flies and takes the map away on a high tree. Aargh! You realize that now you have to find a way to climb a tree (also a cool puzzle). Once you finally climb it and enter the gull's lair you realize to your horror that it is chokeful with various map pieces and you don't know which one is yours. AARGH! And so on.
My concern is that many newer players wouldn't appreciate this and would think the game is pulling some sort of a cruel carrot-on-a-stick scheme on them. My girlfriend was very happy when she opened the oyster and found the pearl she knew LeChuck needed because she solved the puzzle and got the story going. Me, I would have been perfectly happy if getting a pearl took another seventeen steps involving convoluted but logical thinking, and the story freely could sit back and wait for all I care. I guess it's not easy to be in Telltale's shoes and trying to appease both me AND my girlfriend...
But all those things you said were actually really logical not really twisted at all:
The Important Looking Pirates say early on that grog eats through metal, and when you get to the bar there are lots of empty mugs hinting that you should perhaps do something with them.
Yes, they state it very clearly; but in the meanwhile they're holding perfectly intact mugs containing the very same substance. It's contradictory, therefore
- strictly speaking - illogical. As for the mugs hinting that you should perhaps... that's just the experience of the old adventure gamer , and it has nothing to do with everyday logic.
It's pretty common knowledge that you hide files in cakes for prisoners (which SoMI plays on really well) and they even tell you that the cake is really heavy.
Of course, but it's the whole "gopher repellent - prisoner - cake connection" which feels logically twisted (even though it makes perfect sense in the world of MI). You surely can suspect that the cake contains a file (but you're told that it's heavy only when you're carrying it with you), but I wouldn't call "obtaining a file from a prisoner through a gopher repellent" logical.
As for the gate, you know you need something/one to pull the nose and you can see a hungry monkey who follows you when you feed it.
Look, it makes sense - in its wacky way - after you've solved it. But I remember feeding the monkey with no apparent reason, and then discovering its actual use when I saw it following me through the clearing: it was unexpected, satisfying (getting all those bananas had a purpose, after all) and, above all, fun.
I think we're getting off topic, anyway; the only point I wanted to make is that the logic we use in ordinary life isn't necessary in Monkey Island (or in other comedic adventures, the most excellent example being DoTT). It's more a matter of consistency than strict logic. And puzzles have to surprise me to be truly memorable.
A perfect example of Monkey unpredictability from Screaming Narwhal (it's tricky, I know, but it was gold to my eyes):
using DeSinge to fix the messed-up idol; you were only trying to get rid of him, but the hilarious outcome solved both of your problems
MI2 (the hard version) is a perfect benchmark for this, especially the Chapter 2 with those map pieces. You see a map piece has stuck on a cliff below you and you realize you can "fish" it out (which requires getting a fishing pole first). As the Guybrush reels it in a seagull flies and takes the map away on a high tree. Aargh! You realize that now you have to find a way to climb a tree (also a cool puzzle). Once you finally climb it and enter the gull's lair you realize to your horror that it is chokeful with various map pieces and you don't know which one is yours. AARGH! And so on.
Yes, they state it very clearly; but in the meanwhile they're holding perfectly intact mugs containing the very same substance. It's contradictory, therefore
- strictly speaking - illogical. As for the mugs hinting that you should perhaps... that's just the experience of the old adventure gamer , and it has nothing to do with everyday logic.
Actually, the pirates themselves say that the chef has to replace the glasses constantly because the grog eats throught hem.
Of course, but it's the whole "gopher repellent - prisoner - cake connection" which feels logically twisted (even though it makes perfect sense in the world of MI). You surely can suspect that the cake contains a file (but you're told that it's heavy only when you're carrying it with you), but I wouldn't call "obtaining a file from a prisoner through a gopher repellent" logical.
Huh? Yes you can. He has a cake that was snuck to him. Files are often stereotypically hidden in cakes to help prisoners escape. Also, our prisoner buddy complains about rats. You need to get the cake from him to get the file, so obviously you need to help him out in some way.
Secret of Monkey Island puzzles are easy. They're not hard at all, especially to an adult. I had a friend recently play through it for the first time and plow through it in a few days without any help, it's incredibly logical and simple.
they could actually include more difficulty levels, like mi2 and mi3 did
if telltale is determine to please both novice and expert gamers, then maybe that's the thing that could be done and that will be appreciated by adventure game lovers.
of course this is a big additional work but it could be a spot-on. i actually never liked those difficulty levels in monkey island or for that matter in any adventure game, but i don't think telltale would be making games harder just to please those who want it while losing the possible interest of a cassual gamer.
Secret of Monkey Island puzzles are easy. They're not hard at all, especially to an adult. I had a friend recently play through it for the first time and plow through it in a few days without any help, it's incredibly logical and simple.
I fear this discussion might never end, so I'll pass over Aunt Tillie's cake puzzle (which I still believe is convoluted, bent, twisted logic, perfectly coherent but far from everyday experience - and therefore entertaining) and the invisibly replaced grog mugs. Allow me to say this - it's the last time, I promise : I agree, TSoMI puzzles can be considered easy when compared to many other adventures; but they're clever and amusing, and they often lead to unexpected results. And that's why I consider them perfect, regardless of their difficulty: I bet your friend has had a good time with TSoMI, because it had a flawlessy balanced gameplay, it was satisfying without being frustrating, and - for the last time, really - it was fun! That's the revolution I was talking about in one of my previous posts: it has nothing to do with difficulty; as someone else said - can't remember who, sorry - it's just good game design.
Maybe Telltale could set the default hints to 0, but have a message right at the start that if you want some assistance to turn the hints on. A lot of the people complaining it's too easy or too short seemed to have played the episode with hints on. I thought the difficulty of puzzles in episode 1 was perfect..Just strike the right balance between challenging without being frustrating
When you start turn the hints right off and enjoy it. Speak to people. Try things out.
The reason for the lack of difficulty is because in the older games a puzzle could stretch out fora whole chapter and be made up from other puzzles.
The Episodes are Episodes and are obviously shorter. This means theirs no time in each episode to have huge puzzles that can get gradually harder. But from now on they should be much harder. Sam and Max hard
Hints should be an option when you click new game. So many people miss it as most games don't check options
All they have to do is make 1 extremely difficult puzzle per episode that would force the player to explore everywhere, talk to everyone and experience every element of the game
I am pretty sure I missed out on a lot because there wasnt much need to explore or talk to people extensively.
Im sure there were many funny lines that could have been heard if I had to scour the islands a little more
With almost any game, there is an option to Play The Game to its most direct extent, and then there is the immersive option to experience the environment. The styles work in synergy according to each play style of the user, whether it is driven by objectives and plot, or focused on interacting with the world as it is presented to the player. Episode 2 provides both options and a mix in between, so feel free to play again and expand your play style!
The games are fine with me, since it looks like I'm getting dumber as I get older. In ye Olden Days(Tm) I was able to finish Infocom and old Sierra games without any hintbooks or help, but somehow I was stuck on that stooopid chest puzzle. Ugh.
I understand that Telltale wanted to make this game friendly for the more "casual gamer" but it is just to easy. I mean, i am no hardcore gamer but i would prefer the game more challenging. I remember Curse of Monkey Island having two difficulty settings. Perhaps Telltale could introduce this idea back into the game?
Turning the hints off effectively creates a "hard" difficulty setting.
Also, MI2's and MI3's "easy" difficulty setting was essentially the same game but with many of the puzzles pre-solved or cut out. I never saw the point of that. If I wanted an adventure game with LESS puzzles, I might just as well watch a cartoon while wiggling a mouse in one hand.
I don't concur!
Most of the puzzles where just simplified, ie had a process removed. This allowed for some cryptic puzzles with a real sting in their tail for experienced players.
for the record, ive got my copy of a vampyre story yesterday and started playing it. its a GREAT game so far. much the same style as comi. and its a TRUE point and click game, no using keyboard to move around everyone should pick this up right now.
I can't stand vampires, especially not the girl.. gosh her voice is just sooo annoying.. however I hope his new ghost pirate adventure is gonna be some good.
Comments
There's a difference between hard and ridiculous. Anyone here ever played LSL2? At some point in the game, you must abandon a cruise ship and head for an island. You can carry a certain amount of items with you, if memory serves, and you have to somehow predict which ones you'll need. If you don't pick up the necessary ones, later on in the game you'll die or blow it in various ways.
That is not a challenge, that's horrible game design.
I don't think anyone considers LucasArts adventures to be the most difficult games out there. It's just that people have put LucasArts on a pedestal because of the quality of the games they released. And with good reason.
Personally, I don't mind dying in games, or failing because I did something stupid. One of my favorite adventure games ever is Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers and there are many ways for you to die in that game. The difference, however, is that in those instances, the death can be justified and it's not because you did something wrong earlier on.
What LucasArts did and other companies also adopted later on, was not to let the player move on with the story after having missed something they will need.
And again, that's just good game design.
i did as with (almost) all the other games of that time. Even Maniac Mansion, if i recall right, had a "forced choose" at the very beginning (the photographer). Personally it's not a real problem to me. Anyway these were other times.
What i mean is that the extremism in both ways is wrong. People demand for harder games not for impossible ones and, for how are todays ADVs realized, i agree with them.
No disagreements here. I, too, am hoping for a couple of harder puzzles in later chapters, but my biggest beef with many posters here is that they were expecting them from the get-go.
Playing an episodic game is entirely new territory for me, so maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reserve final judgment until I have finished the whole game.
I don't see each episode as a game on its own, so I won't nag about episode X being easier than episode Y. I see it as a currently unfinished game, and we've only played two fifths of it so far.
If the end result is not up to my standards I'll have no problem voicing my honest opinion, but until then, I'll be patient and wait to see what TT have in store for us in the future.
that's a good position that i totally respect. i'm new to this kind of games too and if i should judge S&M season 1 as 5 (ok 6, abe was great still alone) different mini games i would say that it was not so great but played all together was really funny and somewhat "complete".
i think that episodic release is challenging on its own because of how people hurl to each one, but i think that puzzles are fundamental because an adventure is built on them. if a certain number of people says that these puzzles are too much easy, i think that they should be taken more seriously (but this does not mean that their word is the one) than on any other aspect of the game (sound, graphics, engine, controls etc. but not for the plot).
cheers
It's because they deserve to be bashed.
In those days it was essentially LucasArts vs. Sierra. LucasArts produced adventure games sparingly, but they quality tested every game to hell and back and did their best to offer the best gaming experience. Sierra on the other hand chose quantity over quality and pumped out those "quest" games one after another. The kicker was that adventure gamers bought them all even though they knew the experience will leave a lot to be desired - even a lousy adventure game was better then no adventure game at all. Still, getting a new LucasArts game was much more special then buying a new Sierra installment - it was like a difference between a superbly prepared gourmet meal and killing hunger with an undercooked hamburger from that greasy joint down the road.
Of course, as a result, LucasArts adventures (and their basic principles of game design) made adventure games easier. But this is a good thing; some things that were accepted in the early 90's just wouldn't fly today. Just look how people balk if some bug surfaces and they have to replay a part of a game; imagine if replaying again and again was an actual feature. I would be the first to be done with the adventure genre altogether...
P.S. Noone got the monkey wrench reference? Seriously?
It's kinda one of those things you don't think over when english aint your native language.
But I loved that puzzle when I finally got it!
Anyone else think that if ToMI had the "verbs" interface from CMI, the difficulty would increase a notch?
It may, but that's not the point. Telltale has created some excellent puzzles through their single click interface (and that without the possibility of combining items or even examining them): just browse through your Sam & Max collection and you'll find plenty of good examples.
And to clarify my point of view one last time, I'd like to see some harder puzzles in the future chapters, but that's not what I'm currently complaining about (also because I'm almost sure they will be there). All I'm saying is that puzzles in Spinner Cay were uninteresting, predictable and unsatisfying: it's not just a matter of difficulty.
i may have to check this out...how old is it??
You can find more details at http://www.vampyrestory-game.com/.
I got it for Mac a couple of weeks ago (actually, the "Labyrinthine twists of logic" example from Randulf's post, which was the game's demo, is what sold me on the game!) and it's beautiful, but quite hard (I have played for a few hours already and don't feel like I'm making much progress - but my inventory's filling up nicely!).
I might be too used to the (perfect) level of difficulty of Telltale's games for a game like this one, but I'll definitely keep at it (and hopefully finish it before the release of its sequel).
If you're a logical person, then you might find them easy to solve - but that's only half of what I play for - I like the experience of exploring too and listening to the dialogue and watching the action. I think the Tales of Monkey Island games have so far satsified me with their mix of puzzles and gameplay, and the length of the games has also been satisfying. Usually each episode takes about 4 hours for me to complete, and that's the kind of length I'm OK with. More would be great, but I haven't ever found myself thinking "that's too short".
I think I'll believe all the people who are saying that each game will increase in difficulty as it is released. It's good design, as the easier first chapter pulls people in and then they continue to be entertained as future episodes get more challenging. I think someone once stated they didn't want to make a super-hard chapter 1 and put casual gamers off buying it.
I recently bought Secret of Monkey Island Special Edition and completed the entire game in about 4 hours. That's the whole thing - not just the individual chapters. That's even taking into account the bits I forgot and how to complete all the puzzles (I don't remember anything from 20 years ago!). When you look at it that way, Tales of Monkey Island is five times longer and has more to enjoy.
You might also be interested in knowing that the makers of "A Vampyre Story", Autumn Moon Entertainment, are going to release a game called " The Ghost Pirates of Vooju Island".
Here's a link to that game's official (and currently quite "barren") website, here's an Adventure Gamers preview and here's a link to a trailer that premiered a few days ago.
Enjoy!
Anyway, relating this to ToMI, one thing i like about "A Vampire Story" is that when you think you already solved a puzzle there is a new difficulty to solve. Most of the puzzles have many layers.
The most opposite example of this in Tales... would be the oyster/pearl puzzle, wich isnt even a puzzle:
You know you need a pearl, you found an oyster coupon right there, you get the oyster, you get the pearl. Its just one big straight line. I though the puzzle was gonna be how you open the oyster (i thought maybe seagulls on Coronado shack would help) but no.
And one last thing, if people complain about being easy its because thats the only thing we can do.
People that found the game hard can always get the hints up, there is solution for that. But the ones that found it easy cant make anything, but wish the next one will be harder. And if it isnt we can only complain again.
ive already been keep a very close eye on that
That crossed my mind too... there aren't many moments that make you feel like a genius for working a puzzle out.
I think more hard than that will just be annoying. The game is is not too easy, it's fine. The chapters are to short if you ask me, and I really would love to see new character models and not reused ones.
I'm really glad there are many items in the inventory though! That was a real weak point in Sam & Max.
Yes! I was pleased when I saw the inventory filling up. An overflowing inventory is something I really enjoy in an adventure game.
yes exactly.
In the first episode, the cheese puzzle is a perfect example of a great Monkey Island-ish puzzle. But most of the others were a "straight line". For example, when you have to put figure in ink, the reporter could say something like - Hey, don't touch that i need it for printing. So, you would need to make some plan - you learn what he likes or wants by talking to him and work in that way, or i don't know, drop the sand in his eyes or just use the three-headed monkey line... something, to make the puzzles more interesting.
The tar puzzle at the end is actually a good puzzle and not in a predictable style. Well you could argue that he could put the hand in it right away, but there can be a logical explanation because hand is thinking on its own and you need a different approach to put it there, even by some random events, which is still in area of your actions. This is not a bad writing at all.
One more thing, it could be discussed that lack of a "look" option puts the game in a blend click-through, even in a terms of a difficulty. Without a look option which could be done by right clicking for example, you can't make a puzzles which require of you to inspect something in order to progress and find out some more information which will help you to solve the puzzle, use that piece information and so on. This is another reason why puzzles seem to look straightforward, because look option is one of the strongest tradition of adventure games.
But all those things you said were actually really logical not really twisted at all:
The Important Looking Pirates say early on that grog eats through metal, and when you get to the bar there are lots of empty mugs hinting that you should perhaps do something with them.
It's pretty common knowledge that you hide files in cakes for prisoners (which SoMI plays on really well) and they even tell you that the cake is really heavy.
As for the gate, you know you need something/one to pull the nose and you can see a hungry monkey who follows you when you feed it.
And i solved it instantly, because after two decades of playing monkey island games, my brain has been warped to nearly instantly solve slightly wacky puzzles like that. And i think thats the real problem most people are having - i bet pretty much everyone who says the game is too easy has played several other monkey games, and they just managed to pick up some monkey style puzzle solving skills up along the way. (Or are like others have said simply adventure game vets in general. Of course, i started off with Zork, so, i guess maybe its built into me too?)
I think the difficulty is just fine the way it is. I wouldnt mind the collectors edition DVD adding a few more extra puzzles to appease those who have voiced concern, (Mega Monkey Mode Ver. 2!) but im very happy with the few hours over a couple of days gameplay i get out of each episode.
I can completely agree with this.
Obvious puzzle is unsatisfying because, well, it's obvious. And not a puzzle at all. If you have to climb on the tree and there's a ladder nearby, you don't really feel pleased with yourself by figuring out you have to take the ladder, place it on the tree and climb it.
MI2 (the hard version) is a perfect benchmark for this, especially the Chapter 2 with those map pieces. You see a map piece has stuck on a cliff below you and you realize you can "fish" it out (which requires getting a fishing pole first). As the Guybrush reels it in a seagull flies and takes the map away on a high tree. Aargh! You realize that now you have to find a way to climb a tree (also a cool puzzle). Once you finally climb it and enter the gull's lair you realize to your horror that it is chokeful with various map pieces and you don't know which one is yours. AARGH! And so on.
My concern is that many newer players wouldn't appreciate this and would think the game is pulling some sort of a cruel carrot-on-a-stick scheme on them. My girlfriend was very happy when she opened the oyster and found the pearl she knew LeChuck needed because she solved the puzzle and got the story going. Me, I would have been perfectly happy if getting a pearl took another seventeen steps involving convoluted but logical thinking, and the story freely could sit back and wait for all I care. I guess it's not easy to be in Telltale's shoes and trying to appease both me AND my girlfriend...
- strictly speaking - illogical. As for the mugs hinting that you should perhaps... that's just the experience of the old adventure gamer
I think we're getting off topic, anyway; the only point I wanted to make is that the logic we use in ordinary life isn't necessary in Monkey Island (or in other comedic adventures, the most excellent example being DoTT). It's more a matter of consistency than strict logic. And puzzles have to surprise me to be truly memorable.
A perfect example of Monkey unpredictability from Screaming Narwhal (it's tricky, I know, but it was gold to my eyes):
Wonderful example. And yet again, I do see your girlfriend's point
if telltale is determine to please both novice and expert gamers, then maybe that's the thing that could be done and that will be appreciated by adventure game lovers.
of course this is a big additional work but it could be a spot-on. i actually never liked those difficulty levels in monkey island or for that matter in any adventure game, but i don't think telltale would be making games harder just to please those who want it while losing the possible interest of a cassual gamer.
I fear this discussion might never end, so I'll pass over Aunt Tillie's cake puzzle (which I still believe is convoluted, bent, twisted logic, perfectly coherent but far from everyday experience - and therefore entertaining) and the invisibly replaced grog mugs. Allow me to say this - it's the last time, I promise
The reason for the lack of difficulty is because in the older games a puzzle could stretch out fora whole chapter and be made up from other puzzles.
The Episodes are Episodes and are obviously shorter. This means theirs no time in each episode to have huge puzzles that can get gradually harder. But from now on they should be much harder. Sam and Max hard
Hints should be an option when you click new game. So many people miss it as most games don't check options
I am pretty sure I missed out on a lot because there wasnt much need to explore or talk to people extensively.
Im sure there were many funny lines that could have been heard if I had to scour the islands a little more
T_T
I concur!
I don't concur!
Most of the puzzles where just simplified, ie had a process removed. This allowed for some cryptic puzzles with a real sting in their tail for experienced players.