They are very easy puzzles, but adventure games aren't as mainstream as they used to be and people are used to finishing games without ever really getting stuck.
I suspect if people got stuck often these days, they'd just give up and either look at walkthroughs or just quit playing the game.
As much as I would love to have really difficult puzzles back, I doubt we will see that any time soon, especially in 'big' releases and maybe especially not for games intended to be released on consoles.
Myst 4 was the last difficult adventure game I remember playing (but I have to admit I haven't played a lot of the newer adventure games).
that's the point. it isn't just a matter of how beautifull TOMI is (i don't have any doubt).
Hope comments for the next episodes will be different. :rolleyes:
ps. i suggest you to play "hollywood monsters" if you really want a challenging game! the only problem, sadly and paradoxicaly, is that i'm not sure if it's available in english...
What if? Atmosphere can be conveyed equally well - indeed, I'm sure there's many who'd argue *better* - with text.
Depends which of Infocom's works you're talking about, though. There's a far cry between the simplicity of prose in Zork and the lengthy descriptions in, say, Trinity.
Regarding the topic as a whole:
For the record: I, too, found Chapter 2 easier than Chapter 1. I don't consider that a problem. There's an interesting problem for adventure designers, trying to find the right balance between accessibility, difficulty and the resources available to them - the latter is an aspect that seems to be underappreciated here, given that they're working to a fairly tight deadline and on a budget.
I think what people are really crying out for is not puzzle *difficulty* as much as it is puzzle *complexity*. Difficulty is an extremely hard thing to assess - what might be a tricky association for one player is got instantly by another. For instance, a number of people here have alluded to the drowning puzzle in SoMI. As it happens, I solved that one instantly; up until I saw people lauding how wonderful it was, I never even regarded it as a puzzle! I was no great solver in those days, it just happened to be entirely in tune with my mindset.
So we move on to complexity, and this is where I agree - I'd love to see some intricate, multi-stage puzzles. Of course, it depends on what exactly you regard as the bounds of the puzzle - it could be argued that the entire second act of Screaming Narwhal is a single puzzle, "Get off the island". And in that sense, it works. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem people have with Spinner Cay really is the fact that it's a bit more plot-driven than Narwhal; without having a concrete overaching goal locked down at the start it makes the individual puzzles feel more stand-alone, and taking them on their own, perhaps they might feel a bit sparse. While pretty much everything in the main chunk of Narwhal was heading towards a big goal, it feels like the actions in Spinner Cay are leading towards smaller ones.
So in short, I think what it boils down to is this: People want more content. That's what more complex puzzles are, really; more interactions, more steps, more content. That's not an unreasonable desire, but I suspect the resources issues I mentioned earlier may put paid to that. I'd be very interested to see Telltale try a game that breaks away from the episodic format and isn't tied to a strict release schedule to see what they can pull off - it's been a long time since Bone - but I suspect that they're understandable nervous about moving away from what seems to be proving a rather secure business model to them.
Episode 2 was particularly easy. I think it was because the puzzles were too obvious and most of the needed items were introduced or shown before you needed them.
It took me 4 hours to complete it and it was really just the walking time, allmost every puzzle was solved immediately. Had to walk back and fro a bit to figure out the molten pyrite though.
What if? Atmosphere can be conveyed equally well - indeed, I'm sure there's many who'd argue *better* - with text.
Depends which of Infocom's works you're talking about, though. There's a far cry between the simplicity of prose in Zork and the lengthy descriptions in, say, Trinity.
Regarding the topic as a whole:
For the record: I, too, found Chapter 2 easier than Chapter 1. I don't consider that a problem. There's an interesting problem for adventure designers, trying to find the right balance between accessibility, difficulty and the resources available to them - the latter is an aspect that seems to be underappreciated here, given that they're working to a fairly tight deadline and on a budget.
I think what people are really crying out for is not puzzle *difficulty* as much as it is puzzle *complexity*. Difficulty is an extremely hard thing to assess - what might be a tricky association for one player is got instantly by another. For instance, a number of people here have alluded to the drowning puzzle in SoMI. As it happens, I solved that one instantly; up until I saw people lauding how wonderful it was, I never even regarded it as a puzzle! I was no great solver in those days, it just happened to be entirely in tune with my mindset.
So we move on to complexity, and this is where I agree - I'd love to see some intricate, multi-stage puzzles. Of course, it depends on what exactly you regard as the bounds of the puzzle - it could be argued that the entire second act of Screaming Narwhal is a single puzzle, "Get off the island". And in that sense, it works. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem people have with Spinner Cay really is the fact that it's a bit more plot-driven than Narwhal; without having a concrete overaching goal locked down at the start it makes the individual puzzles feel more stand-alone, and taking them on their own, perhaps they might feel a bit sparse. While pretty much everything in the main chunk of Narwhal was heading towards a big goal, it feels like the actions in Spinner Cay are leading towards smaller ones.
So in short, I think what it boils down to is this: People want more content. That's what more complex puzzles are, really; more interactions, more steps, more content. That's not an unreasonable desire, but I suspect the resources issues I mentioned earlier may put paid to that. I'd be very interested to see Telltale try a game that breaks away from the episodic format and isn't tied to a strict release schedule to see what they can pull off - it's been a long time since Bone - but I suspect that they're understandable nervous about moving away from what seems to be proving a rather secure business model to them.
First of all i really want to say again that my comments are ADVs related and not directly pointed towards TOMI.
i really like the way you rearranged the matter underlining the difference between "difficulty" and "complexity". and i agree with you.
IMO todays ADVs lacks of both of them. and this is because puzzles aren't really part of the storyline (the same puzzle should intersect the storyline in more parts and the number of these parts affects the complexity).
IMHO for what is the situation (at least untill now) i think that, often, story and puzzles have been designed in different moments and according to this:
"Another plus is that Tales of Monkey Island is more streamlined than the adventure games you may remember from the 1990s, with more accessible, less frustrating gameplay that stays out of the way so you can enjoy the story. Telltale's taken everything that made the original Monkey Island games great—creative storylines, charming characters, hilarious dialogue—and we're putting them in a format today's gamers can appreciate. Short attention span? No problem, our games are designed to be finished up over a weekend or in a few evening sessions, so you'll get that sense of satisfaction in completing what you've started. No long, frustrating stretches of being stuck, either. In our games, the characters increase their power of suggestion if they detect you're stuck. Yep, they really are that smart."
this seems to be the new philosophy in developing ADVs or better, as i prefer to call them, interactive books. budget is not the main reason.
Comments
that's the point. it isn't just a matter of how beautifull TOMI is (i don't have any doubt).
Hope comments for the next episodes will be different. :rolleyes:
ps. i suggest you to play "hollywood monsters" if you really want a challenging game! the only problem, sadly and paradoxicaly, is that i'm not sure if it's available in english...
What if? Atmosphere can be conveyed equally well - indeed, I'm sure there's many who'd argue *better* - with text.
Depends which of Infocom's works you're talking about, though. There's a far cry between the simplicity of prose in Zork and the lengthy descriptions in, say, Trinity.
Regarding the topic as a whole:
For the record: I, too, found Chapter 2 easier than Chapter 1. I don't consider that a problem. There's an interesting problem for adventure designers, trying to find the right balance between accessibility, difficulty and the resources available to them - the latter is an aspect that seems to be underappreciated here, given that they're working to a fairly tight deadline and on a budget.
I think what people are really crying out for is not puzzle *difficulty* as much as it is puzzle *complexity*. Difficulty is an extremely hard thing to assess - what might be a tricky association for one player is got instantly by another. For instance, a number of people here have alluded to the drowning puzzle in SoMI. As it happens, I solved that one instantly; up until I saw people lauding how wonderful it was, I never even regarded it as a puzzle! I was no great solver in those days, it just happened to be entirely in tune with my mindset.
So we move on to complexity, and this is where I agree - I'd love to see some intricate, multi-stage puzzles. Of course, it depends on what exactly you regard as the bounds of the puzzle - it could be argued that the entire second act of Screaming Narwhal is a single puzzle, "Get off the island". And in that sense, it works. I wouldn't be surprised if the problem people have with Spinner Cay really is the fact that it's a bit more plot-driven than Narwhal; without having a concrete overaching goal locked down at the start it makes the individual puzzles feel more stand-alone, and taking them on their own, perhaps they might feel a bit sparse. While pretty much everything in the main chunk of Narwhal was heading towards a big goal, it feels like the actions in Spinner Cay are leading towards smaller ones.
So in short, I think what it boils down to is this: People want more content. That's what more complex puzzles are, really; more interactions, more steps, more content. That's not an unreasonable desire, but I suspect the resources issues I mentioned earlier may put paid to that. I'd be very interested to see Telltale try a game that breaks away from the episodic format and isn't tied to a strict release schedule to see what they can pull off - it's been a long time since Bone - but I suspect that they're understandable nervous about moving away from what seems to be proving a rather secure business model to them.
It took me 4 hours to complete it and it was really just the walking time, allmost every puzzle was solved immediately. Had to walk back and fro a bit to figure out the molten pyrite though.
First of all i really want to say again that my comments are ADVs related and not directly pointed towards TOMI.
i really like the way you rearranged the matter underlining the difference between "difficulty" and "complexity". and i agree with you.
IMO todays ADVs lacks of both of them. and this is because puzzles aren't really part of the storyline (the same puzzle should intersect the storyline in more parts and the number of these parts affects the complexity).
IMHO for what is the situation (at least untill now) i think that, often, story and puzzles have been designed in different moments and according to this:
"Another plus is that Tales of Monkey Island is more streamlined than the adventure games you may remember from the 1990s, with more accessible, less frustrating gameplay that stays out of the way so you can enjoy the story. Telltale's taken everything that made the original Monkey Island games great—creative storylines, charming characters, hilarious dialogue—and we're putting them in a format today's gamers can appreciate. Short attention span? No problem, our games are designed to be finished up over a weekend or in a few evening sessions, so you'll get that sense of satisfaction in completing what you've started. No long, frustrating stretches of being stuck, either. In our games, the characters increase their power of suggestion if they detect you're stuck. Yep, they really are that smart."
this seems to be the new philosophy in developing ADVs or better, as i prefer to call them, interactive books. budget is not the main reason.