Well, if he's a good guy (like Lee) and do this to protect his family, I'll let him into the group. Convicted or not, the world is ended, who cares about his past?
But how do you know a person is a good guy? There's never any guarantees.
And dude; would you let Hitler into your group? The past doesn't suddenly stop becoming irrelevant. Why do you think Kenny and co. get pissed at Lee if he doesn't tell them?
Well, if he's a good guy (like Lee) and do this to protect his family, I'll let him into the group. Convicted or not, the world is ended, who cares about his past?
First of all, how in my post does it sound like I’m throwing a tantrum?? Lol! I was disagreeing with you, nothing more. I think you’re the one being sensitive dude so chill lol.
Lets assess the situation of the meat locker then shall we?
You got Lilly and determinant Lee giving Larry CPR, mouth to mouth and then say he suddenly turns? First thing he does is rip Lee/Lilly’s mouth off, maybe bites the other person, one threat then becomes three. Of course they would all die sooner or later! Kenny then has to deal with all of them, think he’s going to be able to kill them all or have the stomach to kill three people? It was already hard enough for him to kill Larry, he even states how hard it was and that he didn’t like doing it.
As for the ep 4 ending, you have to remind him of the most important thing to him...family. We know he doesn’t think things through and at that point he was more concerned of his beef with Lee than what happened to Clementine but not because he’s heartless, he just didn’t think things through but once he remembers what you did for his family he realises and is very understanding. I feel that people who hate Kenny are far too quick to hate him without thinking deeper about the situation thats all. I am not saying everything he does is good and don’t justify the bad things he has done. But i disagree with a lot of the hate.
Convicted or not, the world is ended, who cares about his past?
People afraid for the safety and lives of them and/or their loved ones.
Also note Kenny's reactions to finding out, among others.
I will know if he's good if he gives his shorts to someone other, defending everyone, etc.
Hitler ? Can't you maked a better joke ? Hell no, i will not let a Racist killer in the group !
But how do you know a person is a good guy? There's never any guarantees.
And dude; would you let Hitler into your group? The past doesn… more't suddenly stop becoming irrelevant. Why do you think Kenny and co. get pissed at Lee if he doesn't tell them?
Or some people just realize that saving Larry's life is a way to stop Larry from turning just as effective as bashing his head in. Of course, with the bonus of keeping a group member alive and of avoiding the schism of the group that would inevitably follow his death and proved to be just as lethal to other members of the group as Larry reanimating ever could (just ask Carley... and Lilly's sanity).
You can keep someone without a pulse alive through CPR for hours. I myself know of a case where a nurse single handedly spent two hours doing compressions until aid came and saved the victim. And Larry was responding to Lee's CPR. Like it or not, Kenny murdered Larry because he just couldn't take the chance. And he did not do it for the good of the group. He did it for himself, and because Lee wasn't saving his family for him fast enough.
Larry was a problem. You just need to ask yourself how smart it is to just kill your problems away, especially when you're reliant on the trust from people close to whoever you were getting rid of.
Why did people save him? Because people want to play the game morally and some people just select the morally correct decision every time. P… moreersonally if some guy deliberately tries to kill you in cold blood and you don't do anything about it in a ZA then that makes you weak. No way was I going to try to save the guy.
After that, when one of them brothers started to attack Lee, he didn't do jack shit, just standing there and watched how Lee was about to get murdered.
Well i have a different take on that, he actually looks terrified as he watches on. Yes it is different if you had sided with him but perhaps the adrenaline was more on his side on that scenario where in the other one he was too angry/upset to react. As i said though if you see that scene again he does look more scared than anything.
Well you’ve said your piece and that’s fine. I’m obviously more tolerable and forgiving of him. No problem
Yeah, I mean people would have had different reasons why they saved him of course and i'm not even saying it was the wrong decision. But ultimately the main reason a lot of people saved him comes down to the morality of the situation. That's the feeling I get anyway.
I also agree that Kenny did it for himself and not the group. Regardless, Kenny had nothing to do with why I didn't save him. Larry had tried to kill Lee in cold blood, showed absolutely zero remorse for his actions and I think it's possible he would have tried it again as Lee would be forced to make more and more controversial decisions in the future that Larry might not approve of. Larry should have also been the one trying to earn the trust back from the group the second he tried to kill Lee, rather than Lee relying on their trust. He failed to do that and just had to go for me.
Or some people just realize that saving Larry's life is a way to stop Larry from turning just as effective as bashing his head in. Of course… more, with the bonus of keeping a group member alive and of avoiding the schism of the group that would inevitably follow his death and proved to be just as lethal to other members of the group as Larry reanimating ever could (just ask Carley... and Lilly's sanity).
You can keep someone without a pulse alive through CPR for hours. I myself know of a case where a nurse single handedly spent two hours doing compressions until aid came and saved the victim. And Larry was responding to Lee's CPR. Like it or not, Kenny murdered Larry because he just couldn't take the chance. And he did not do it for the good of the group. He did it for himself, and because Lee wasn't saving his family for him fast enough.
Larry was a problem. You just need to ask yourself how smart it is to just kill your problems away, especi… [view original content]
Sorry dont take this the wrong way but thats absolute trash. You are judging the scene as if it were a normal, moral life situation, it wasn’t. CPR for hours?? Yeah i am sure they had all the time in the world to do that especially being locked up with no way out and no aid coming. No one in their right mind would take the risk of trying to revive a man who could and ultimately would turn eventually and kill you and your friends. You just wouldn’t. If however the group were not trapped, had medical supplies and if there were a lot more people, strong people who could maybe hold Larry down in case he did turn, then yes i would be in favour of trying to help revive him, im not heartless! But everything i just said was not the case. He would need medical care at some point no matter how long you continue CPR for, there was no help coming plus none of them were trained or knew how to keep him stable and they couldn’t anyway. Supposing the St John’s came back and dragged them away? He’d die.
Of course, with the bonus of keeping a group member alive and of avoiding the schism of the group that would inevitably follow his death and proved to be just as lethal to other members of the group as Larry reanimating ever could (just ask Carley... and Lilly's sanity).
Sparing someone’s feelings is NOT as important when your life is in serious danger. As shitty as that is, it’s true no matter what anyone says. Being alive or having someone hate you. Hmmm? I wonder which is the most sensible choice?
Kenny murdered Larry
No Iron, no for fucks sake. How can someone murder someone if they are already dead? And no i am not saying he was dead but if you don’t know if someone is alive or dead then how can that be murder?
He killed Larry, not murdered. There is a difference. The scene was always left ambiguous never revealing whether he was alive or dead for certain. A twitch of the mouth could have been anything as i have said before and nothing will ever convince me otherwise until someone from Telltale says otherwise.
And he did not do it for the good of the group. He did it for himself
Bullshit! Absolute crap. Im sorry. Of course he did it for the group! You just don’t think so because it’s Kenny. He saved everyone’s life in that meat locker like it or not. He didn’t like doing what he did nor did he do it to hurt Lilly or anyone else. I have said this so many times but people should watch a season 2 episode of FTWD which mirrors the meat locker scene. A guy has a heart attack, someone starts chest compressions and giving mouth to mouth, he turns and takes a chunk off the face. That’s what would have happened to Lilly or Lee. He explains that it needs to be done before he makes the final decision and how sorry he is about the situation. Then in the woods talking to Lee he again explains how he killed Larry to save all of us. You only have to replay those scenes to see that what i am saying isn’t trash.
Sorry Iron I don’t want to get into another argument dude. I really disagree with your view on the meat locker scene. If you were trapped in there i really feel you would think very differently.
Or some people just realize that saving Larry's life is a way to stop Larry from turning just as effective as bashing his head in. Of course… more, with the bonus of keeping a group member alive and of avoiding the schism of the group that would inevitably follow his death and proved to be just as lethal to other members of the group as Larry reanimating ever could (just ask Carley... and Lilly's sanity).
You can keep someone without a pulse alive through CPR for hours. I myself know of a case where a nurse single handedly spent two hours doing compressions until aid came and saved the victim. And Larry was responding to Lee's CPR. Like it or not, Kenny murdered Larry because he just couldn't take the chance. And he did not do it for the good of the group. He did it for himself, and because Lee wasn't saving his family for him fast enough.
Larry was a problem. You just need to ask yourself how smart it is to just kill your problems away, especi… [view original content]
I disagree wdfan and ironwoodlover. I think Kenny was thinking of the whole group and not himself during that scene. It may have come across like he wasn’t to you guys but the things he said before and after the meat locker says otherwise. When Lee is trying to help Larry, Kenny says “you’re putting us all at risk you son of a bitch”. He didn’t say “me” selfishly. In Episode 3 also after Lilly sarcastically comments that piling into the RV is so appealing with him after what happened, Kenny says “why wouldn’t it be, you know i always do what it takes to keep everyone safe”
It’s how you look at the situation and character i guess. I disagree with you both though.
Yeah, I mean people would have had different reasons why they saved him of course and i'm not even saying it was the wrong decision. But ult… moreimately the main reason a lot of people saved him comes down to the morality of the situation. That's the feeling I get anyway.
I also agree that Kenny did it for himself and not the group. Regardless, Kenny had nothing to do with why I didn't save him. Larry had tried to kill Lee in cold blood, showed absolutely zero remorse for his actions and I think it's possible he would have tried it again as Lee would be forced to make more and more controversial decisions in the future that Larry might not approve of. Larry should have also been the one trying to earn the trust back from the group the second he tried to kill Lee, rather than Lee relying on their trust. He failed to do that and just had to go for me.
I guess it really depends on how many times you sided with him and even if you sided with him most of the time, he can seem a little ungrateful at times.
Thing is they had time. If you're without a pulse you don't just immediately die. It takes at least a few minutes without effective CPR for a person's braincells to start suffering damage and around 10 minutes for the cells to be considered effectively dead. This time extends in cold temperatures... like in cold water or a meat locker. Not to mention that reanimation rarely is immediate. That is more than enough time for Kenny to try and find a way out, properly arm Lee and Lilly so they can defend themselves should Larry turn, and go save his own family. Lilly was most certainly informed about this.
Now, I understand this was a very chaotic situation (even though Kenny himself was responsible for 90% of the escalation) and that Kenny isn't exactly known for being cool headed in a crisis. But you can see he didn't want to try to save Larry. He wouldn't take the slightest change because Larry's life wasn't worth any chance for him. And that's all Kenny needed to do, take the chance. If instead of simply dictating that Larry as beyond salvation and that they needed to kill him, Kenny had instead thought "I need to find US a way out of here as soon as possible so WE have a chance of ALL getting out of here alive" Larry might've just survived.
You missed my point. I'm not saying "ohhh, poor Lilly and her feelings!". I'm saying that by choosing to kill Larry, both Kenny and you, the player, are greatly underestimating how much losing Lilly's collaboration might've damaged the group in the long run. Carley's death was most certainly something than wouldn't have happened had Larry been alive. Who knows even if Duck's death would've been avoided had Lilly not gone insane and paranoid. What if Kenny hadn't smashed her dad's head in front of her as he clinged to life, would she had been as opposed to Kenny's idea of leaving? Who knows. Just don't underestimate how much having Lilly in that state actually damaged the group.
Killed/Murdered... a technicality. Not really looking at the scene from a moralistic point of view so it really doesn't matter.
You can, of course, believe in whatever you want to believe. But 4 compressions = mouth moves vs 3 compressions or less = no movement makes it all pretty clear cut to me. Larry was regaining his breathing, if not consciousness. The virus already resides in the brain, it is not carried by bloodstream. CPR cannot affect reanimation time. (Plus, with what I pointed out above, there is no way Larry was dead that soon anyways).
About Fear, those people weren't aware of reanimation at all. Lilly and Lee were fully aware of the risk they were taking and would, of course, be wary of any movement in Larry. Again, Kenny had one job: opening the meat locker and arming Lilly and Lee so they could be prepared for anything.
Just imagine that Lee, Kenny, Clem, Larry and Lilly safely get out of the meat locker. Kenny's family is still trapped inside with the dangerous cannibals, but Lilly just goes and says "It's too dangerous for any of us to risk going against these people. Your family is expendable Kenny. I'm so very sorry." and then Lee proceeds to side with her and the whole group parts for the motor inn as Kenny's family gets killed in the distance. Seems completely fair, after all, Lee faces as much mortal danger saving Kenny's family as he would risking CPR in Larry and he just cannot take any risk for a group member which is not his family!
Of course, this situation isn't near as trying for Kenny as the meat locker was for Lilly, considering Kenny wouldn't get his family killed in an extremely violent manner in front of him by a fellow group member he was led to believe he could trust and then be forced to live under the same roof of such group member.
"And he did not do it for the good of the group. He did it for himself, and because Lee wasn't saving his family for him fast enough."
Bullshit! Absolute crap. Im sorry. Of course he did it for the group! You just don’t think so because it’s Kenny.
I think Kenny was thinking of the whole group and not himself during that scene. @Pickypete
I don't think he doesn't care about the group simply "because he is Kenny", I think so because of how he acts towards the other members of the group throughout both first seasons. He never shows regard for anyone outside his "inner circle" when making decisions. He will antagonize, scream at and even get violent to anyone who opposes his ideals. The only exception to this is his "death scene", his redemption by the end of S1. It's especially clear in No Going Back when he treats the group as mindless children who should have no say in their own future. He protects who he considers sacred (Katjaa, Duck, Clem, AJ) and steers those people toward something he conceives as the ideal future (Wellington), at all costs. Even if he has to scare off or even kill all the "obstacles" in the way, even if said obstacles happen to be members of the same group he allegedly wants to protect (Arvo, Bonnie, Mike, Jane).
In part, I understand and approve of his mindset. I don't blame him for prioritizing self and family at all. The problem with Kenny is his disregard of everyone as mere objects who don't posses critical thinking.
Sorry dont take this the wrong way but thats absolute trash. You are judging the scene as if it were a normal, moral life situation, it wasn… more’t. CPR for hours?? Yeah i am sure they had all the time in the world to do that especially being locked up with no way out and no aid coming. No one in their right mind would take the risk of trying to revive a man who could and ultimately would turn eventually and kill you and your friends. You just wouldn’t. If however the group were not trapped, had medical supplies and if there were a lot more people, strong people who could maybe hold Larry down in case he did turn, then yes i would be in favour of trying to help revive him, im not heartless! But everything i just said was not the case. He would need medical care at some point no matter how long you continue CPR for, there was no help coming plus none of them were trained or knew how to keep him stable and they couldn’t anyway. Supposing the St John… [view original content]
Dude Larry was a piece of shit who terrorized the entire group at every opportunity he had, yelling verbal abuse at everyone and cursing up a storm in front of children. Wanted to throw a child out to the walkers immediately without a rational conversation about it, never gave a fuck about anybody except himself and Lilly. You can bet your right nut that he was an abusive prick to Lilly growing up as well. Not to mention the fact that there was no way in hell he was recovering from that heart attack.
Larry wasn't racist. He was just an angry old man who saw Lee as a murderer and thus with deplorable morals.
Keep in mind Larry's positio… moren. He's arrogant and boorish but he was a retired US Army Commander, and lost a lot in his life, including his wife. Lilly was the last thing he had in the apocalypse that kept him going. He always supported her, bolstered her and kept pushing for her. He even keeps his wife's wedding ring, so you know he takes losses hard.
The apocalypse happens, people are trying to usurp and undermine the authority his daughter holds (Lilly does a good job admittedly with what she has on hand post Episode 1), and this man, a convicted murderer who escaped custody, is now getting close to his daughter. Lee is a danger.
Don't get me wrong, Larry's a dick and doesn't do 'favors' or 'debts' [You saved his life.], but he's got the welfare of his loved ones in mind and doesn't let people in. Losing them sucks, and in an Apocalypse losing people is a few every other month.
Thing is they had time. If you're without a pulse you don't just immediately die. It takes at least a few minutes without effective CPR for a person's braincells to start suffering damage and around 10 minutes for the cells to be considered effectively dead. This time extends in cold temperatures... like in cold water or a meat locker. Not to mention that reanimation rarely is immediate. That is more than enough time for Kenny to try and find a way out, properly arm Lee and Lilly so they can defend themselves should Larry turn, and go save his own family. Lilly was most certainly informed about this.
Well no i still disagree that they had time to do that. Kenny would take another few minutes finding a way out, then persuading Clem to climb through the vent, then opening the door, Kenny would then have to get out find suitable weapons nearby, head back in, which by that time with the further minutes that have passed, Larry could easily have turned. CPR doesn’t always work no matter how long a person continues it for. None of them were trained professionals either. Supposing the St John’s came back just as Kenny or Clem got out? They’d walk in to find what had happened, they’d sure as hell kill Larry anyway or drag Lilly and Lee out away from him. There are lots of possibilities.
My point from the start is, taking that risk is insane knowing that the guy could turn at any second and kill you. Im sorry i think anyone is a complete idiot to put themselves and others at risk knowing what would happen, i wish people would genuinely imagine if they were in that meat locker instead of sat behind a computer screen because i think you’d all think very differently. It’s like i also said, they had no way of getting medical supplies for Larry which he would need immediately if revived. He was going (to die) one way or the other, Lee even says those exact words himself in Episode 5 when dying in front of Clementine (though it depends on choices obviously, i think its one of the optional things he says if you ask Clem to shoot him). One last thing, in the time he collapsed, a good few minutes had already passed by when discussing what to do with Larry before Lee made the choice to help or side with Kenny, his brain cells were most likely already dying at that point too so Kenny finding a way out etc adds even more time as i said.
But you can see he didn't want to try to save Larry.
I never denied that, of course he didn’t want to try and save him because he sensibly saw how fucking dangerous it was in doing so not to mention being scared. Plus yes i doubt he cared about him, i mean who else but Lilly did?? But he didn’t like doing what he did and we clearly see that he didn’t want to hurt Lilly intentionally for doing what he did, he said “Lilly im sorry i truly am but in a few minutes we’re gonna be stuck inside a room with a 6 foot 4 seriously pissed off dead guy”, he then tries to apologise to Lilly after doing what he did. If you want further evidence that he showed concern for Lilly is at the start of Ep3 when he talks to Lilly about how Lilly is coping etc and that he is worried.
He wouldn't take the slightest change because Larry's life wasn't worth any chance for him. And that's all Kenny needed to do, take the chance. If instead of simply dictating that Larry as beyond salvation and that they needed to kill him, Kenny had instead thought "I need to find US a way out of here as soon as possible so WE have a chance of ALL getting out of here alive" Larry might've just survived._
I’ve already explained why Larry would have died anyway without medical help, something the group didn’t have so reviving him was pointless and stupid in the end.
You missed my point. I'm not saying "ohhh, poor Lilly and her feelings!". I'm saying that by choosing to kill Larry, both Kenny and you, the player, are greatly underestimating how much losing Lilly's collaboration might've damaged the group in the long run. Carley's death was most certainly something than wouldn't have happened had Larry been alive. Who knows even if Duck's death would've been avoided had Lilly not gone insane and paranoid. What if Kenny hadn't smashed her dad's head in front of her as he clinged to life, would she had been as opposed to Kenny's idea of leaving? Who knows. Just don't underestimate how much having Lilly in that state actually damaged the group.
I also explained in my previous post, which is more important, staying alive or a woman’s state of mind? As bad as it sounds we know the answer to this. In order for the whole group to survive the sacrifice of her possible mental state decline had to occur or else she’d be dead. Like i said again, Larry was beyond saving without medical help. Sorry to repeat this so much but it needs to be reiterated.
You can, of course, believe in whatever you want to believe. But 4 compressions = mouth moves vs 3 compressions or less = no movement makes it all pretty clear cut to me. Larry was regaining his breathing, if not consciousness. The virus already resides in the brain, it is not carried by bloodstream. CPR cannot affect reanimation time. (Plus, with what I pointed out above, there is no way Larry was dead that soon anyways).
I will believe what i want of course lol and i still disagree. You or anyone else in that situation would not know if CPR was affecting reanimation, how would you know with such little knowledge of the virus? Chest compressions could have quickened the process of reanimation, we are not to understand the way the virus worked. Btw I have always said that Larry COULD have been alive but he equally could have been dead as well. Him being alive didn’t matter though because he was going to die anyway without the help he needed. The scene was always left a mystery deliberately so we don’t know if he was alive or dead though, I remember reading an article about it in 2012 where they wanted it ambiguous to leave it up to our imagination. Wish i could find that page to show you. I will still argue the 4th chest compression could have been him reanimating or twitching in death. That is my other way of looking at the situation. What you have said isn’t wrong either though.
About Fear, those people weren't aware of reanimation at all. Lilly and Lee were fully aware of the risk they were taking and would, of course, be wary of any movement in Larry. Again, Kenny had one job: opening the meat locker and arming Lilly and Lee so they could be prepared for anything.
And it doesn’t change how stupid and dangerous it was to risk their lives and others for a man who was beyond saving without medical help (how many times have i said that now? Lol apologies!). The only knowledge they had about the virus and someone turning was when Mr Parker/Travis reanimated and they saw how fast he turned, how were they to know Larry wouldn’t have done the same? You’d think they’d be more sensible. That is why i mentioned earlier (in the first paragraph) that there was no time for Kenny to find a way out and arm them with weapons.
Just imagine that Lee, Kenny, Clem, Larry and Lilly safely get out of the meat locker. Kenny's family is still trapped inside with the dangerous cannibals, but Lilly just goes and says "It's too dangerous for any of us to risk going against these people. Your family is expendable Kenny. I'm so very sorry." and then Lee proceeds to side with her and the whole group parts for the motor inn as Kenny's family gets killed in the distance. Seems completely fair, after all, Lee faces as much mortal danger saving Kenny's family as he would risking CPR in Larry and he just cannot take any risk for a group member which is not his family!
The difference is that they have a choice in what you have said, in the meat locker there wasn’t really one, it had to be done or else the imaginary scenario you described wouldn’t have happened.
Besides, the St John’s would not kill Katjaa though because they needed her due to her being a vet, Duck was also a valuable bargaining chip so neither were in actual danger as funny as that sounds. Haha its hard to imagine the whole group agreeing that its too dangerous to save Kenny’s wife and kid and then just going back to the motor inn and forgetting all about it. That would be pretty stupid too because they know where they are, the cannibals could easily go back there and be a threat to them again, still using Kat and Duck as hostages. Kenny of course wouldn’t have walked away if the group had decided not to try and save them. They’d all look like bigger assholes than Kenny too if they did that. Carley/Doug and Ben show up after the meat locker right? So they easily outnumber the St John’s, a plan could have been formulated easily enough i’d say. Another reason this imaginary scenario wouldn’t happen is because they need Kat as much as the St John’s do due to her somewhat medic skills.
I don't think he doesn't care about the group simply "because he is Kenny", I think so because of how he acts towards the other members of the group throughout both first seasons. He never shows regard for anyone outside his "inner circle" when making decisions. He will antagonize, scream at and even get violent to anyone who opposes his ideals.
But that is HONESTY! Lol he may look like an asshole to you but he says it like it is. That is how i see it. But tell me this, why should he agree to what they say and why should they agree to what he says too? Who should win the argument? Why is Kenny being ousted as the villain for disagreeing when Lee or other people are doing the same thing technically? So who wins? I also don’t agree that he doesn’t care about anyone but his “inner circle”, he acts like he doesn’t but you aren’t seeing the bigger picture in my opinion:
He went out hunting with Lee and Mark to find food not just for himself and family but for the whole group.
I know you disagree but he thought about the group’s safety in the meat locker and did what he did.
He made further runs into Macon with Lee to get supplies for the whole group.
Despite his problems with Lilly he still wanted her and everyone to leave in the RV with him to find somewhere safer rather than everyone being at risk of bandits threatening to kill them.
After Lilly kills Carley/Doug, if you bring her in the RV, Kenny says he wants everyone out and not to be trapped in there with her thus showing regard to others safety.
He had numerous chances to go his own way after his family died but still stayed with the group.
He fixed up the boat for everyone and not just for himself and “inner circle”.
It's especially clear in No Going Back when he treats the group as mindless children who should have no say in their own future. He protects who he considers sacred (Katjaa, Duck, Clem, AJ) and steers those people toward something he conceives as the ideal future (Wellington), at all costs. Even if he has to scare off or even kill all the "obstacles" in the way, even if said obstacles happen to be members of the same group he allegedly wants to protect (Arvo, Bonnie, Mike, Jane).
I admit that he probably didn’t care much for the Season 2 group but I don’t blame him to be honest. They virtually gate crashed his new home where he was living a happy life (he was happy as we saw), he probably felt pissed off knowing Nick killed Matthew when finding out later, he obviously liked him, they were to blame for him and his girlfriend being taken hostage and he was forced to stay with them then. I guess Kenny also felt like he needed to be responsible for that group due to the fact they did help Clementine out in Episode 1. Despite how he may have not got along with everyone, he still helped deliver Rebecca’s baby, he got a truck working for the whole group not just himself, “i bring them a working truck and they act like i just shit in their cereal”. None of them were grateful for that so I don’t blame him for being hostile when they “disagree” with him. Again, i have to ask, why is Kenny being ousted as the villain just because he’s “mean” to them? Why are the others opinions more important? I’m not saying Kenny’s is any better but what makes their’s superior? It doesn’t at all.
I’m basically saying in all this that despite not caring much about the group, he probably does care in some way about them because he’s not a heartless fiend like some picture him as. He seemed upset when Luke died too which is strange but actually true if you review that scene.
Phew! This takes like a half a day replying ugh! Thanks for the reply anyway. It’s just going to be something we’ll always disagree on
Thing is they had time. If you're without a pulse you don't just immediately die. It takes at least a few minutes without effective CPR for … morea person's braincells to start suffering damage and around 10 minutes for the cells to be considered effectively dead. This time extends in cold temperatures... like in cold water or a meat locker. Not to mention that reanimation rarely is immediate. That is more than enough time for Kenny to try and find a way out, properly arm Lee and Lilly so they can defend themselves should Larry turn, and go save his own family. Lilly was most certainly informed about this.
Now, I understand this was a very chaotic situation (even though Kenny himself was responsible for 90% of the escalation) and that Kenny isn't exactly known for being cool headed in a crisis. But you can see he didn't want to try to save Larry. He wouldn't take the slightest change because Larry's life wasn't worth any chance for him. And that… [view original content]
he probably felt pissed off knowing Nick killed Matthew when finding out later
DID that ever actually come out? Cause honestly, Nick's role deteriorated to exchanging a few one-liners with Kenny, believing Luke will find a way to help get them out, and getting lumped in with the girls in Clementine's place.
Thing is they had time. If you're without a pulse you don't just immediately die. It takes at least a few minutes without effective CPR for … morea person's braincells to start suffering damage and around 10 minutes for the cells to be considered effectively dead. This time extends in cold temperatures... like in cold water or a meat locker. Not to mention that reanimation rarely is immediate. That is more than enough time for Kenny to try and find a way out, properly arm Lee and Lilly so they can defend themselves should Larry turn, and go save his own family. Lilly was most certainly informed about this.
Well no i still disagree that they had time to do that. Kenny would take another few minutes finding a way out, then persuading Clem to climb through the vent, then opening the door, Kenny would then have to get out find suitable weapons nearby, head back in, which by that time with the further minutes that have passed, Larry could easily… [view original content]
No, he wasn't. Lee deserved a much better friend. How I wish Mark took that role...
Kenny is the type of the guy to hate you if you tell him that his shoes don't suit his outfit.
No, he wasn't. Lee deserved a much better friend. How I wish Mark took that role...
Kenny is the type of the guy to hate you if you tell him that his shoes don't suit his outfit.
There definitely was time. The numbers I stated are already a wide enough window of time for Kenny to get it figured out in hurry (just watch how much time it takes for Lee to do it in the original), and the fact that Larry was in a cold environment already extends that window indeterminately. People who fall on cold water and get their hearts inactive can survive up to 45 minutes without aid! And this is us completely ignoring that Lilly was giving him CPR! Blood was getting to his brain. You don't need to be a professional for that by the way. We are taught these things in school! And Lilly was probably as informed as she could be on the whole procedure should her dad have a heart attack.
Larry was going to be fine for a good while. The whole mega urgency of the situation was 90% Kenny's escalation and panic. It really wasn't an "insane risk" and it would still not be one until at least a good while had passed (that is if the CPR wasn't working, because if it was, they had literally hours). And Kenny didn't even need a "good while" to get the meat locker figured out. It takes Lee less than five minutes to get it open (this while also chatting with Kenny, checking on Clem, calmly asking Lilly for permission to check Larry's pockets, etc.) imagine how much it would've taken if they were in a rush!
After the doors are open and Lilly and Lee armed (and come on, Kenny and Lee easily get weapons once they get to the next room, takes them seconds), the risk of anyone dying, even if Larry ended up turning, would become minimal and even non-existent for Kenny, who would be outside the room saving his family.
Now I think you're misunderstanding me about Lilly. Losing Lilly's sanity cost Carley's life. Losing Lilly's cooperation with Kenny made them stay in the motor inn for longer, which cost Duck's and by extension Katjaa's lives. You're saying it doesn't matter, but losing Lilly ended up being just as lethal to the members of the group as Larry's walker could've been. That's what I'm saying. Breaking Lilly cost lives as well.
And with that in mind, going back to the meat locker, there is no complex medical aid for a victim of a heart attack. You either give them aspirin (which is such rare medicine), nitroglycerin (which Lilly mostly likely still had at the motor in as precaution) or, and probably the most practical at the moment, he had to be zapped. In lack of better equipment, any mobile electrical object would've worked, like a lantern with a bulb. It was absolutely not impossible to save Larry after the door was open. But you know what? This is actually beyond my point in the OP. Even if Larry ended up dying after the door was open, we would still be left with a better outcome. Lilly would not have hated Kenny's guts, she would probably even have been grateful and definitely more cooperative with him just for trying. Hell, maybe she wouldn't have gone as crazy considering she would not have to live under the same roof as her dad's killers. Again, this could've saved Duck and would've definitely saved Carley.
There is no way reanimation time varies with compressions or blood flow! It's just not possible considering what we know and have seen of the TWD universe. We've seen people reanimate a thousand times by now. A person dies, their heart stops, then they reanimate. Sometimes they reanimate as soon as two minutes pass by, others take 10 minutes or more, and they all have no heartbeat. The virus is already in the brain, reanimation is simply the virus taking control of the stem (as we see in the show), I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure blood would not affect that, but the electromagnetic pulses in the brain would.
I am aware the writers wanted it to be ambiguous (I think it was on the subtitle files something like "Larry inhales. Is he alive or reanimating?"). We, of course, have looked into this scene more in depth than the writers themselves already, and the fact is that, no matter the writers' intentions, there is no way a human becomes braindead after 3 minutes of no pulse. It's just not possible. Just like in Fear, they kinda portrayed it as if it's possible for a person's brain to immediately die. That is not so.
There is a choice in the meat locker scene just as there is a choice in the situation I described. You either take a risk to save a member of the group, or deem them as "already dead" and expendable. Even when they are not. After all, say the wrong words to Brenda? Lee gets shot in the head. Hesitate a few milliseconds? Boom, Dany blows Lee's face off. By your logic, since saving Kenny's family is such a huge risk as well, Lee should not have tried at all. Thing is, it was not impossible to save Kenny's family, just as it wasn't impossible to save Larry or at least neutralize the risk he would've eventually posed without smashing his head in. It's equally asshole-ish to not even try to save a group member.
It would be funny seeing Danny and Andy try to go against our fully armed group of 9 people at the motor inn, lol.
You keep bringing up how I would've acted if it were me inside the me locker. The actual me. And I'm telling you finding a way out is as good a way of saving myself as is killing Larry, so that's probably what i'd immediately try to do. Can't say I would stay too close for the aftermath after I had gotten out, though. Considering killing him would come later but I would definitely at least wait until his skin grew cold, lol. Of course, breaking out of that meat locker should take like 3 minutes in a hurry so I would really not have to worry about that.
Kenny is "ousted as a villain" simply because he rarely can be reasoned with. He doesn't tell it as it is, he tells it as he thinks it is or how he wants it to be. He never concedes, it's his way, or no one's way.
I could go over everything in your bucket list, but let me sum it up. Helping the group as a way to help himself and his family is still helping himself and his family in the end. You can also clearly see that his whole boat plan was something he put in his own mind to keep himself going. And in the end, when it was all said and done, who was really up for his ridiculous boat plan? Christa and Omid weren't, my Lee was not as well for sure. Simply sticking around, pursuing some obsession just to keep himself going under the excuse that he's doing it for the group doesn't imply care. And again, I understand prioritizing family and self, I'm not blaming him for it, I'm just not pretending he gave a damn about anyone else, at least not until literally losing everything, including his obsession with the goddamn boat, and redeeming himself by the end of S1.
Ask yourself if it was Katjaa and Duck collapsed in the meat locker. You think he wouldn't take the chance then? You said it yourself, he didn't care about Larry, he would've dropped that salt lick in anyone's head but his family's. They're all immediately expendable to him as soon as they pose the slightest threat. Lilly, Clem, Carley, Ben, Lee... That's pretty clear to me.
I admit it was commendable of him to help with AJ, but then again, did he do it out of some weird desire of wanting a replacement son or did he truly just want to help Rebecca? You saw how he would hold him after he got delivered, how he would treat AJ as his and no one else's.
Do you also recall the line "Look, I don't give two shits about what you people think. I got this truck working, so I say where we go.". You really think he did it for them? And not for his idealized future of getting AJ to Wellington? It's just like that boat, you paint it as him doing it for the group, but it's really just him doing whatever gets him closer to his objectives. I don't see it as anything else.
What makes the other's attitude superior is that they were all communicating, trying to find common ground. Kenny wasn't. He wanted him to do what he wanted, no discussion.
I'm not gonna lie, I'm quite tired of talking about Kenny, and I was hoping I could've avoided doing so. Neither of us will probably ever change our minds about him in a lifetime lol. I realize you believe he acts with the group's best interest at heart, I simply never saw that, but believe it or not I don't see Kenny as a villain. I don't see things as black and white. I sided with him when he had good ideas (leaving the motor inn) and supported him as best I could when he was handling situations well (the shootout in No Going Back). The problem is these were extremely rare, short, moments for me, and more often than not, we were butting heads.
And that sums up just how the majority of people who hate Kenny judge him lol. When the guy is honest about his feelings and may come across as horrible, people hate him for it but because Mark is oh so nice, he makes a better friend.
Kenny was realistically human, where as most characters were fake, too nice or one dimensional. That’s not to say i don’t like Mark, he was great but wasn’t around long enough. As for me though, Kenny and Lee were bro’s in my game. The way it should be in my opinion
No, he wasn't. Lee deserved a much better friend. How I wish Mark took that role...
Kenny is the type of the guy to hate you if you tell him that his shoes don't suit his outfit.
He's a real bro but sometimes the writers screwed up with him.
I remember how i sided with him everytime in season 1 and when i didn't agree about killing Larry the guy suddenly forgets everything you've done before for him that's bullshit.
I don't hate Kenny. My feelings for him are mixed - there are moments when I am like: "You go, Kenny!" and other when I am like: "Okay, why did you do that?"
I just wish he was a bit more appreciative. I like the scene where him and Lee make up if they did each other wrong in Episode 5.
fake
You mean most of the characters in Season 1? That's a bit far!
It's the ANF characters that needed to be more realistic and fleshed out, if you ask me.
Mark is the man - he predicts the entire second episode and has our back in the end as a walker!
And that sums up just how the majority of people who hate Kenny judge him lol. When the guy is honest about his feelings and may come across… more as horrible, people hate him for it but because Mark is oh so nice, he makes a better friend.
Kenny was realistically human, where as most characters were fake, too nice or one dimensional. That’s not to say i don’t like Mark, he was great but wasn’t around long enough. As for me though, Kenny and Lee were bro’s in my game. The way it should be in my opinion
sigh let me cut this slightly short, Larry was dying either way. There is no fucking way about it. Even if the group had revived him, did everything you said getting out, where was the medicine? Back at the Motor inn? You think he’d survive long enough for the group to travel all the way back to get the meds then back again? First of all he WOULD need more than pills to recover from a fricken heart attack so that theory goes out of the window. How were they going to zap him? How the heck would they even find something instantly to do that? They realistically wouldn’t. He would die shortly after being revived without the right help, my mum is a nurse and has dealt with this so many times in hospital. Would they carry him back to the lodge? A big guy like that? Not to mention dealing with the walkers that were on the way to the house. Sorry but your thinking here in my view is absolutely insane. It took 5 minutes to get out of the locker you say but that is only because Larry was dead at that point and because there was no urgency to get out once the threat was dealt with. No one would think straight and work out how to escape when they know their life is in danger at that moment so it definitely would have taken longer than 5 minutes. If i was in that room and knew my life was in danger, I would do what it takes to survive and keep my group safe from the threat. You just wouldn’t stupidly risk trying to save someone in case you failed in reviving said person. Of course Kenny wouldn’t do it if it was his family, who the he’ll could?? But someone would HAVE to step up and if no one would, they would all be dead due to hesitating or taking a stupid fucking risk.
Now about Lilly, her later actions of killing Carley and being paranoid etc wouldn’t have occurred not for the reason you have said but because she would have been dead in that meat locker! It was either her having a mental breakdown or dying in that locker, what would you choose? Life or death? Lilly wanted to stay at the motor inn long before her dad died, she already didn’t like the idea about it when Lee mentioned it during the time he was handing out food. Kat and Duck dying was a separate matter entirely from Lilly. That was down to Ben’s dishonesty.
About the reanimation, i said THEY only had little knowledge about people turning not what we as fans know about how it works. They only had Mr Parker/Travis to go on and they saw how fast he turned.
It would be funny seeing Danny and Andy try to go against our fully armed group of 9 people at the motor inn, lol.
Think deeper instead of shooting my theory down. What if they waited till they were asleep? Take one of them hostage, maybe even kill each of them discreetly. I didn’t say they would go in all guns blazing.
Kenny is "ousted as a villain" simply because he rarely can be reasoned with. He doesn't tell it as it is, he tells it as he thinks it is or how he wants it to be. He never concedes, it's his way, or no one's way.
He does tell it like it is though! Not all the time no but if he tells you your idea is shit, most of the time it probably is the way i see it too. The point is, it’s honesty, he is telling you what he thinks and people like you and many others hate it because it comes across as ignorant or unreasonable but it’s so much more than that.
You can also clearly see that his whole boat plan was something he put in his own mind to keep himself going. And in the end, when it was all said and done, who was really up for his ridiculous boat plan? Christa and Omid weren't, my Lee was not as well for sure. Simply sticking around, pursuing some obsession just to keep himself going under the excuse that he's doing it for the group doesn't imply care.
Oh that’s funny? Yet everyone seemed to still go ahead with the plan of getting what was needed for the boat, everyone still wanted to get on that thing by the end. This goes back to the honesty thing with Kenny, if everyone seemed uninterested with the boat plan then why didnt they speak up and be honest? Its people like that who I wouldn’t trust if i was in a group. You need honest people who will tell you when they disagree or not happy about a plan or situation.
At least Kenny had a plan instead of sitting around doing fuck all. Christa wanted to hang around in a house hoping her boyfriend magically gets better? Yeah that helps a lot.
He did care enough about the people in his group in both seasons I disagree with that he didn’t care. Why else would he stay with them otherwise? Why not take the boat for himself or take the truck with Clem and AJ and leave? Why when there was a capacity problem with the boat did he discuss that there wouldn’t be enough room for everyone? I honestly feel he is being misjudged here. Just because he acts like a dick at times or doesn’t show that he cares doesn’t mean he doesn’t.
I admit it was commendable of him to help with AJ, but then again, did he do it out of some weird desire of wanting a replacement son or did he truly just want to help Rebecca? You saw how he would hold him after he got delivered, how he would treat AJ as his and no one else's.
If you delivered a baby and the father wasn’t around i think you’d have some attachment to it. He cared enough about Rebecca to help her. I would say after Rebecca died yes he probably did make it his mission to have a replacement son of sorts. He was a dad after all and no one else knew what it was like being a dad except him. Having an attachment to a baby again for Kenny must have been tough. He even says he wanted to raise him better than how he raised Duck. This was his second chance.
Do you also recall the line "Look, I don't give two shits about what you people think. I got this truck working, so I say where we go.".
Yes, he fixed the truck when no one else knew how to or had any form of plan. So he was rude about it? Maybe if they had thanked him or shown some sort of appreciation then maybe it would have been different.
You really think he did it for them? And not for his idealized future of getting AJ to Wellington?
It was for AJ as the main priority of course but its as i said before, why would he not just take off with Clem and AJ if he didn’t also get it working for everyone else? So yes i do think he did it for them, i KNOW he did after he said “I bring them a working truck and they act like i just shit in their cereal”. I think that’s pretty clear.
It's just like that boat, you paint it as him doing it for the group, but it's really just him doing whatever gets him closer to his objectives. I don't see it as anything else.
Well you can think otherwise but no I completely disagree obviously. He would have took off on his own if he didn’t care about other people around him.
What makes the other's attitude superior is that they were all communicating, trying to find common ground. Kenny wasn't. He wanted him to do what he wanted, no discussion.
But its the same outcome when you look at it. They gave their view, he disagreed and then they disagreed/argued back so again because Kenny gets angry and the other unrealistic characters don’t, it paints him as the bad guy? I’ll always disagree. Their attitude can be considered just as bad but without the rudeness. Big deal.
Yep you’re right, i spend half a day typing on my phone back to you about Kenny and it does get tiresome. I haven’t done so for ages for that reason. I guess its the only thing keeping me on this forum. We will never agree with each other that is true. Thanks for reading. I’ll try to drop this subject.
There definitely was time. The numbers I stated are already a wide enough window of time for Kenny to get it figured out in hurry (just watc… moreh how much time it takes for Lee to do it in the original), and the fact that Larry was in a cold environment already extends that window indeterminately. People who fall on cold water and get their hearts inactive can survive up to 45 minutes without aid! And this is us completely ignoring that Lilly was giving him CPR! Blood was getting to his brain. You don't need to be a professional for that by the way. We are taught these things in school! And Lilly was probably as informed as she could be on the whole procedure should her dad have a heart attack.
Larry was going to be fine for a good while. The whole mega urgency of the situation was 90% Kenny's escalation and panic. It really wasn't an "insane risk" and it would still not be one until at least a good while had passed (that is if the CPR wasn't w… [view original content]
I will say it again, you can sustain a person who suffered a cardiac arrest with CPR. Finding something electrical to shock him with in the farm is not inconceivable at all. Hell, I just now remembered, you literally have a tazer in the next room! Lol.
I'm not sure what you mean by recovery. Larry's heart stopped due to an overload of physical effort, not a clot, the heart itself wasn't damaged. If Larry survived being zapped and his heart started pumping again he would be out of the woods. The most worrying thing afterwards would be brain damage due to lack of oxygenation, but since CPR started being performed literally seconds after he fell how I doubt any brain cell could even have died.
I don't see how being in a rush would make Lee take longer to find his way out, but whatever you say. You should also know that a big part of those 5 minutes I mentioned is Lee comforting Clem for Larry's death and talking to Kenny about it.
You're also making up this supposed panic which would have Lee somehow fail at finding a way out. There is no way Larry would be dead for at least a good 10 minutes (again, completely ignoring Lilly's CPR which would probably keep Larry going for a lot more time!). Bend the situation however you want, but they were able to get out of there pretty quickly.
Larry was savable. I have described a way to do it for the third time now. I don't know what else to add.
I know how Lilly felt about leaving. Convincing her might've been easier is all I'm saying.
Dialogue with Carley confirms they were keeping watch at night. Plus, Andy and Danny would have no real reason to attack the group after they got their vet anyways. It's not their style, they tempt people in to eat them, they don't attack them.
I didn't say Kenny isn't honest, I'm saying he can be so stubborn he never listens to anyone else.
I don't doubt Kenny would've eventually taken off with the truck and the baby if the group insisted on... trying to have a say in their own future! Kenny's attitude is absolutely not the same. After the group disagrees with him, they actually give reasons as to why their idea is better. The formula at Howe's, the cold. How does Kenny respond to, you know, reasonable thinking? He leaves mid conversation, screaming like a fucking 5 year old on tantrum. That's the difference. He can't take his ideals being challenged because what matter to him is not the group's welfare, but what he fantasizes as a good plan. Communicating with your fellow survivors about what's the best course of action is not "unrealistic", it's just what normal people would do.
sigh let me cut this slightly short, Larry was dying either way. There is no fucking way about it. Even if the group had revived him, did ev… moreerything you said getting out, where was the medicine? Back at the Motor inn? You think he’d survive long enough for the group to travel all the way back to get the meds then back again? First of all he WOULD need more than pills to recover from a fricken heart attack so that theory goes out of the window. How were they going to zap him? How the heck would they even find something instantly to do that? They realistically wouldn’t. He would die shortly after being revived without the right help, my mum is a nurse and has dealt with this so many times in hospital. Would they carry him back to the lodge? A big guy like that? Not to mention dealing with the walkers that were on the way to the house. Sorry but your thinking here in my view is absolutely insane. It took 5 minutes to get out of the locker you sa… [view original content]
Ah man, now I wish that could've been a choice! "GAAAH!! What the hell are you doin to me, you bastard!"
"Saving your life." "What?! You're lying, you no good mur-AAUGH-AUGH-AGUAH-AUGH!!!"
I will say it again, you can sustain a person who suffered a cardiac arrest with CPR. Finding something electrical to shock him with in the … morefarm is not inconceivable at all. Hell, I just now remembered, you literally have a tazer in the next room! Lol.
I'm not sure what you mean by recovery. Larry's heart stopped due to an overload of physical effort, not a clot, the heart itself wasn't damaged. If Larry survived being zapped and his heart started pumping again he would be out of the woods. The most worrying thing afterwards would be brain damage due to lack of oxygenation, but since CPR started being performed literally seconds after he fell how I doubt any brain cell could even have died.
I don't see how being in a rush would make Lee take longer to find his way out, but whatever you say. You should also know that a big part of those 5 minutes I mentioned is Lee comforting Clem for Larry's death and talking to Kenny about it.
You're also… [view original content]
A heart attack victim who is revived cannot survive without immediate medical care, how many times do i have to say this? The group did not have this, they would NOT get back to the lodge and back to the farm in time to help especially with the St John’s around, hell Danny was guarding the barn for goodness sake and you still think he can survive? He wouldn’t. It doesn’t take a genius to see this dude. You can shock him with the tazer, you can revive him but he would die soon after either way.
How do you know he didn’t have a clot brought on from the stress? Are you psychic? Every heart attack survivor my mum has dealt with have all needed medication and hooked to a machine immediately upon being revived and Larry would be no different. For one thing they are so weak and ill when being revived they would be pretty helpless to be able to move. You say his heart wasn’t damage? Of course it was! He had a heart condition and was taking regular meds, Lilly said he had a few attacks he couldn’t get over and went to the hospital in the past, so it was definitely damaged. He could very well have had a clot, we’ll never know the exact cause.
You don’t see how being in a rush would take longer? I already said why. And i am not making shit up thank you very much and nor do I recall saying he would fail at getting out. I will say this yet again, If you are in a situation where you are shitting yourself and panicking at something (in this case Larry), you would not be able to think straight at finding a way out in a fast amount of time because i am pretty sure you would be thinking more about the danger in the room. When the threat was no more, you can relax so to speak and think more clearly on how to get out. That is what i am trying to say so when in a terrified state, you are more likely to take longer to find a way out because of the more important thing on your mind which would be dealing with the danger. So no i still do not think they would escape quick enough under that sort of pressure and they certainly shouldn’t be stupid enough to take the risk helping him in case the CPR failed.
If you knew exactly how to get out of the locker or the escape was planned beforehand and you rushed then of course you could get out in record time but that was not what i was saying so you misunderstood, probably my fault for being a shit explainer right?
Larry was savable. I have described a way to do it for the third time now. I don't know what else to add.
And i have said several times that even if he was revived, he was not saveable because he would die soon after without medical help, there was no way they could get out of the farm, back to the motel and back again to get him meds which they may have ran out of for all we know. The St John’s were nearby, would have gone and checked the meat locker at any time, walkers were soon going to hit the farm, Larry would have been caught up in that too. So overall he was not saveable.
Dialogue with Carley confirms they were keeping watch at night. Plus, Andy and Danny would have no real reason to attack the group after they got their vet anyways. It's not their style, they tempt people in to eat them, they don't attack them.
I said this was a theory of something that could happen and it still doesn’t mean it wouldn’t occur regardless if it was out of character for them. They could easily sneak in and do what i said if they had a good reason to.
My point is, leaving them to continue what they were doing is still pretty risky either way.
I don't doubt Kenny would've eventually taken off with the truck and the baby if the group insisted on... trying to have a say in their own future!
Nah i dont think so. I actually think he’d accept what the others would say eventually like he normally does after he’s had a rant. Especially if Clem decided to stay as well.
Going back to Howe’s was just as risky as Kenny’s plan, there was no winning route so I don’t think their plan was better at all. They had already travelled hours maybe days away from Howe’s, the herd that was there may not have necessarily moved on and if it had then Carvers people may have still been there and got things back under control and remained a threat at the place.
Btw he didn’t leave mid conversation, Jane walked off before he could even say anything further. He wanted to leave right away so they wouldn’t waste time but anyway, not important now is it.
That's the difference. He can't take his ideals being challenged
And people can’t take it when he speaks his mind and hear stuff that they don’t want to hear.
because what matter to him is not the group's welfare, but what he fantasizes as a good plan.
Then why does he stay with them? Why does he say he brings them a working a truck if he didn’t want them around? Please answer the question. I disagree as usual dude.
Communicating with your fellow survivors about what's the best course of action is not "unrealistic", it's just what normal people would do.
If said survivors equally don’t want to listen to him then communication can’t work and they didn’t want to listen to him either numerous times or did you miss that? It works both ways but because Kenny reacts differently and comes across as angry, it means to you and others that he is in the wrong for his attitude. Well i beg to differ. And when i said they were unrealistic, it has nothing to do with that scene, i am referring to them having unrealistic human traits compared to Kenny. Like for example how nice you’d start being to a little Russian prick who earlier had been involved in trying to kill you. Ridiculous. Let’s not go there though please.
You have an answer for everything but so do i lol. Going to bed ironwoodlover, goodnight from England
I will say it again, you can sustain a person who suffered a cardiac arrest with CPR. Finding something electrical to shock him with in the … morefarm is not inconceivable at all. Hell, I just now remembered, you literally have a tazer in the next room! Lol.
I'm not sure what you mean by recovery. Larry's heart stopped due to an overload of physical effort, not a clot, the heart itself wasn't damaged. If Larry survived being zapped and his heart started pumping again he would be out of the woods. The most worrying thing afterwards would be brain damage due to lack of oxygenation, but since CPR started being performed literally seconds after he fell how I doubt any brain cell could even have died.
I don't see how being in a rush would make Lee take longer to find his way out, but whatever you say. You should also know that a big part of those 5 minutes I mentioned is Lee comforting Clem for Larry's death and talking to Kenny about it.
You're also… [view original content]
The short time we had to meet Mark is noticeable as he seemed to have a lot more affinity with Lee than Kenny. On the other hand, Kenny is that kind of guy who has a good heart but is a bit nervous when problems come up.
I’ll drop the subject now dude. Sorry for arguing or whatever. You know it’s nothing personal, i just see things completely differently. We should chat about Uncharted sometime if you have played it? I bet we have a lot in common with other games lol
I will say it again, you can sustain a person who suffered a cardiac arrest with CPR. Finding something electrical to shock him with in the … morefarm is not inconceivable at all. Hell, I just now remembered, you literally have a tazer in the next room! Lol.
I'm not sure what you mean by recovery. Larry's heart stopped due to an overload of physical effort, not a clot, the heart itself wasn't damaged. If Larry survived being zapped and his heart started pumping again he would be out of the woods. The most worrying thing afterwards would be brain damage due to lack of oxygenation, but since CPR started being performed literally seconds after he fell how I doubt any brain cell could even have died.
I don't see how being in a rush would make Lee take longer to find his way out, but whatever you say. You should also know that a big part of those 5 minutes I mentioned is Lee comforting Clem for Larry's death and talking to Kenny about it.
You're also… [view original content]
I’ll drop the subject now dude. Sorry for arguing or whatever. You know it’s nothing personal, i just see things completely differently. We should chat about Uncharted sometime if you have played it? I bet we have a lot in common with other games lol
I’ll drop the subject now dude. Sorry for arguing or whatever. You know it’s nothing personal, i just see things completely differently. We should chat about Uncharted sometime if you have played it? I bet we have a lot in common with other games lol
But how do you know a person is a good guy? There's never any guarantees.
And dude; would you let Hitler into your group? The past doesn… more't suddenly stop becoming irrelevant. Why do you think Kenny and co. get pissed at Lee if he doesn't tell them?
Comments
People afraid for the safety and lives of them and/or their loved ones.
Also note Kenny's reactions to finding out, among others.
But how do you know a person is a good guy? There's never any guarantees.
And dude; would you let Hitler into your group? The past doesn't suddenly stop becoming irrelevant. Why do you think Kenny and co. get pissed at Lee if he doesn't tell them?
First of all, how in my post does it sound like I’m throwing a tantrum?? Lol! I was disagreeing with you, nothing more. I think you’re the one being sensitive dude so chill lol.
Lets assess the situation of the meat locker then shall we?
You got Lilly and determinant Lee giving Larry CPR, mouth to mouth and then say he suddenly turns? First thing he does is rip Lee/Lilly’s mouth off, maybe bites the other person, one threat then becomes three. Of course they would all die sooner or later! Kenny then has to deal with all of them, think he’s going to be able to kill them all or have the stomach to kill three people? It was already hard enough for him to kill Larry, he even states how hard it was and that he didn’t like doing it.
As for the ep 4 ending, you have to remind him of the most important thing to him...family. We know he doesn’t think things through and at that point he was more concerned of his beef with Lee than what happened to Clementine but not because he’s heartless, he just didn’t think things through but once he remembers what you did for his family he realises and is very understanding. I feel that people who hate Kenny are far too quick to hate him without thinking deeper about the situation thats all. I am not saying everything he does is good and don’t justify the bad things he has done. But i disagree with a lot of the hate.
Apologies for offending you.
Yes, but if you tell him about your past before Lilly killing Carley / Doug, he will be straight.
I will know if he's good if he gives his shorts to someone other, defending everyone, etc.
Hitler ? Can't you maked a better joke ? Hell no, i will not let a Racist killer in the group !
FuckHitler.
Or some people just realize that saving Larry's life is a way to stop Larry from turning just as effective as bashing his head in. Of course, with the bonus of keeping a group member alive and of avoiding the schism of the group that would inevitably follow his death and proved to be just as lethal to other members of the group as Larry reanimating ever could (just ask Carley... and Lilly's sanity).
You can keep someone without a pulse alive through CPR for hours. I myself know of a case where a nurse single handedly spent two hours doing compressions until aid came and saved the victim. And Larry was responding to Lee's CPR. Like it or not, Kenny murdered Larry because he just couldn't take the chance. And he did not do it for the good of the group. He did it for himself, and because Lee wasn't saving his family for him fast enough.
Larry was a problem. You just need to ask yourself how smart it is to just kill your problems away, especially when you're reliant on the trust from people close to whoever you were getting rid of.
Well i have a different take on that, he actually looks terrified as he watches on. Yes it is different if you had sided with him but perhaps the adrenaline was more on his side on that scenario where in the other one he was too angry/upset to react. As i said though if you see that scene again he does look more scared than anything.
Well you’ve said your piece and that’s fine. I’m obviously more tolerable and forgiving of him. No problem
Yeah, I mean people would have had different reasons why they saved him of course and i'm not even saying it was the wrong decision. But ultimately the main reason a lot of people saved him comes down to the morality of the situation. That's the feeling I get anyway.
I also agree that Kenny did it for himself and not the group. Regardless, Kenny had nothing to do with why I didn't save him. Larry had tried to kill Lee in cold blood, showed absolutely zero remorse for his actions and I think it's possible he would have tried it again as Lee would be forced to make more and more controversial decisions in the future that Larry might not approve of. Larry should have also been the one trying to earn the trust back from the group the second he tried to kill Lee, rather than Lee relying on their trust. He failed to do that and just had to go for me.
Sorry dont take this the wrong way but thats absolute trash. You are judging the scene as if it were a normal, moral life situation, it wasn’t. CPR for hours?? Yeah i am sure they had all the time in the world to do that especially being locked up with no way out and no aid coming. No one in their right mind would take the risk of trying to revive a man who could and ultimately would turn eventually and kill you and your friends. You just wouldn’t. If however the group were not trapped, had medical supplies and if there were a lot more people, strong people who could maybe hold Larry down in case he did turn, then yes i would be in favour of trying to help revive him, im not heartless! But everything i just said was not the case. He would need medical care at some point no matter how long you continue CPR for, there was no help coming plus none of them were trained or knew how to keep him stable and they couldn’t anyway. Supposing the St John’s came back and dragged them away? He’d die.
Sparing someone’s feelings is NOT as important when your life is in serious danger. As shitty as that is, it’s true no matter what anyone says. Being alive or having someone hate you. Hmmm? I wonder which is the most sensible choice?
No Iron, no for fucks sake. How can someone murder someone if they are already dead? And no i am not saying he was dead but if you don’t know if someone is alive or dead then how can that be murder?
He killed Larry, not murdered. There is a difference. The scene was always left ambiguous never revealing whether he was alive or dead for certain. A twitch of the mouth could have been anything as i have said before and nothing will ever convince me otherwise until someone from Telltale says otherwise.
Bullshit! Absolute crap. Im sorry. Of course he did it for the group! You just don’t think so because it’s Kenny. He saved everyone’s life in that meat locker like it or not. He didn’t like doing what he did nor did he do it to hurt Lilly or anyone else. I have said this so many times but people should watch a season 2 episode of FTWD which mirrors the meat locker scene. A guy has a heart attack, someone starts chest compressions and giving mouth to mouth, he turns and takes a chunk off the face. That’s what would have happened to Lilly or Lee. He explains that it needs to be done before he makes the final decision and how sorry he is about the situation. Then in the woods talking to Lee he again explains how he killed Larry to save all of us. You only have to replay those scenes to see that what i am saying isn’t trash.
Sorry Iron I don’t want to get into another argument dude. I really disagree with your view on the meat locker scene. If you were trapped in there i really feel you would think very differently.
I disagree wdfan and ironwoodlover. I think Kenny was thinking of the whole group and not himself during that scene. It may have come across like he wasn’t to you guys but the things he said before and after the meat locker says otherwise. When Lee is trying to help Larry, Kenny says “you’re putting us all at risk you son of a bitch”. He didn’t say “me” selfishly. In Episode 3 also after Lilly sarcastically comments that piling into the RV is so appealing with him after what happened, Kenny says “why wouldn’t it be, you know i always do what it takes to keep everyone safe”
It’s how you look at the situation and character i guess. I disagree with you both though.
I guess it really depends on how many times you sided with him and even if you sided with him most of the time, he can seem a little ungrateful at times.
Thing is they had time. If you're without a pulse you don't just immediately die. It takes at least a few minutes without effective CPR for a person's braincells to start suffering damage and around 10 minutes for the cells to be considered effectively dead. This time extends in cold temperatures... like in cold water or a meat locker. Not to mention that reanimation rarely is immediate. That is more than enough time for Kenny to try and find a way out, properly arm Lee and Lilly so they can defend themselves should Larry turn, and go save his own family. Lilly was most certainly informed about this.
Now, I understand this was a very chaotic situation (even though Kenny himself was responsible for 90% of the escalation) and that Kenny isn't exactly known for being cool headed in a crisis. But you can see he didn't want to try to save Larry. He wouldn't take the slightest change because Larry's life wasn't worth any chance for him. And that's all Kenny needed to do, take the chance. If instead of simply dictating that Larry as beyond salvation and that they needed to kill him, Kenny had instead thought "I need to find US a way out of here as soon as possible so WE have a chance of ALL getting out of here alive" Larry might've just survived.
You missed my point. I'm not saying "ohhh, poor Lilly and her feelings!". I'm saying that by choosing to kill Larry, both Kenny and you, the player, are greatly underestimating how much losing Lilly's collaboration might've damaged the group in the long run. Carley's death was most certainly something than wouldn't have happened had Larry been alive. Who knows even if Duck's death would've been avoided had Lilly not gone insane and paranoid. What if Kenny hadn't smashed her dad's head in front of her as he clinged to life, would she had been as opposed to Kenny's idea of leaving? Who knows. Just don't underestimate how much having Lilly in that state actually damaged the group.
Killed/Murdered... a technicality. Not really looking at the scene from a moralistic point of view so it really doesn't matter.
You can, of course, believe in whatever you want to believe. But 4 compressions = mouth moves vs 3 compressions or less = no movement makes it all pretty clear cut to me. Larry was regaining his breathing, if not consciousness. The virus already resides in the brain, it is not carried by bloodstream. CPR cannot affect reanimation time. (Plus, with what I pointed out above, there is no way Larry was dead that soon anyways).
About Fear, those people weren't aware of reanimation at all. Lilly and Lee were fully aware of the risk they were taking and would, of course, be wary of any movement in Larry. Again, Kenny had one job: opening the meat locker and arming Lilly and Lee so they could be prepared for anything.
Just imagine that Lee, Kenny, Clem, Larry and Lilly safely get out of the meat locker. Kenny's family is still trapped inside with the dangerous cannibals, but Lilly just goes and says "It's too dangerous for any of us to risk going against these people. Your family is expendable Kenny. I'm so very sorry." and then Lee proceeds to side with her and the whole group parts for the motor inn as Kenny's family gets killed in the distance. Seems completely fair, after all, Lee faces as much mortal danger saving Kenny's family as he would risking CPR in Larry and he just cannot take any risk for a group member which is not his family!
Of course, this situation isn't near as trying for Kenny as the meat locker was for Lilly, considering Kenny wouldn't get his family killed in an extremely violent manner in front of him by a fellow group member he was led to believe he could trust and then be forced to live under the same roof of such group member.
I don't think he doesn't care about the group simply "because he is Kenny", I think so because of how he acts towards the other members of the group throughout both first seasons. He never shows regard for anyone outside his "inner circle" when making decisions. He will antagonize, scream at and even get violent to anyone who opposes his ideals. The only exception to this is his "death scene", his redemption by the end of S1. It's especially clear in No Going Back when he treats the group as mindless children who should have no say in their own future. He protects who he considers sacred (Katjaa, Duck, Clem, AJ) and steers those people toward something he conceives as the ideal future (Wellington), at all costs. Even if he has to scare off or even kill all the "obstacles" in the way, even if said obstacles happen to be members of the same group he allegedly wants to protect (Arvo, Bonnie, Mike, Jane).
In part, I understand and approve of his mindset. I don't blame him for prioritizing self and family at all. The problem with Kenny is his disregard of everyone as mere objects who don't posses critical thinking.
Dude Larry was a piece of shit who terrorized the entire group at every opportunity he had, yelling verbal abuse at everyone and cursing up a storm in front of children. Wanted to throw a child out to the walkers immediately without a rational conversation about it, never gave a fuck about anybody except himself and Lilly. You can bet your right nut that he was an abusive prick to Lilly growing up as well. Not to mention the fact that there was no way in hell he was recovering from that heart attack.
...
Well no i still disagree that they had time to do that. Kenny would take another few minutes finding a way out, then persuading Clem to climb through the vent, then opening the door, Kenny would then have to get out find suitable weapons nearby, head back in, which by that time with the further minutes that have passed, Larry could easily have turned. CPR doesn’t always work no matter how long a person continues it for. None of them were trained professionals either. Supposing the St John’s came back just as Kenny or Clem got out? They’d walk in to find what had happened, they’d sure as hell kill Larry anyway or drag Lilly and Lee out away from him. There are lots of possibilities.
My point from the start is, taking that risk is insane knowing that the guy could turn at any second and kill you. Im sorry i think anyone is a complete idiot to put themselves and others at risk knowing what would happen, i wish people would genuinely imagine if they were in that meat locker instead of sat behind a computer screen because i think you’d all think very differently. It’s like i also said, they had no way of getting medical supplies for Larry which he would need immediately if revived. He was going (to die) one way or the other, Lee even says those exact words himself in Episode 5 when dying in front of Clementine (though it depends on choices obviously, i think its one of the optional things he says if you ask Clem to shoot him). One last thing, in the time he collapsed, a good few minutes had already passed by when discussing what to do with Larry before Lee made the choice to help or side with Kenny, his brain cells were most likely already dying at that point too so Kenny finding a way out etc adds even more time as i said.
I never denied that, of course he didn’t want to try and save him because he sensibly saw how fucking dangerous it was in doing so not to mention being scared. Plus yes i doubt he cared about him, i mean who else but Lilly did?? But he didn’t like doing what he did and we clearly see that he didn’t want to hurt Lilly intentionally for doing what he did, he said “Lilly im sorry i truly am but in a few minutes we’re gonna be stuck inside a room with a 6 foot 4 seriously pissed off dead guy”, he then tries to apologise to Lilly after doing what he did. If you want further evidence that he showed concern for Lilly is at the start of Ep3 when he talks to Lilly about how Lilly is coping etc and that he is worried.
I’ve already explained why Larry would have died anyway without medical help, something the group didn’t have so reviving him was pointless and stupid in the end.
I also explained in my previous post, which is more important, staying alive or a woman’s state of mind? As bad as it sounds we know the answer to this. In order for the whole group to survive the sacrifice of her possible mental state decline had to occur or else she’d be dead. Like i said again, Larry was beyond saving without medical help. Sorry to repeat this so much but it needs to be reiterated.
I will believe what i want of course lol and i still disagree. You or anyone else in that situation would not know if CPR was affecting reanimation, how would you know with such little knowledge of the virus? Chest compressions could have quickened the process of reanimation, we are not to understand the way the virus worked. Btw I have always said that Larry COULD have been alive but he equally could have been dead as well. Him being alive didn’t matter though because he was going to die anyway without the help he needed. The scene was always left a mystery deliberately so we don’t know if he was alive or dead though, I remember reading an article about it in 2012 where they wanted it ambiguous to leave it up to our imagination. Wish i could find that page to show you. I will still argue the 4th chest compression could have been him reanimating or twitching in death. That is my other way of looking at the situation. What you have said isn’t wrong either though.
And it doesn’t change how stupid and dangerous it was to risk their lives and others for a man who was beyond saving without medical help (how many times have i said that now? Lol apologies!). The only knowledge they had about the virus and someone turning was when Mr Parker/Travis reanimated and they saw how fast he turned, how were they to know Larry wouldn’t have done the same? You’d think they’d be more sensible. That is why i mentioned earlier (in the first paragraph) that there was no time for Kenny to find a way out and arm them with weapons.
The difference is that they have a choice in what you have said, in the meat locker there wasn’t really one, it had to be done or else the imaginary scenario you described wouldn’t have happened.
Besides, the St John’s would not kill Katjaa though because they needed her due to her being a vet, Duck was also a valuable bargaining chip so neither were in actual danger as funny as that sounds. Haha its hard to imagine the whole group agreeing that its too dangerous to save Kenny’s wife and kid and then just going back to the motor inn and forgetting all about it. That would be pretty stupid too because they know where they are, the cannibals could easily go back there and be a threat to them again, still using Kat and Duck as hostages. Kenny of course wouldn’t have walked away if the group had decided not to try and save them. They’d all look like bigger assholes than Kenny too if they did that. Carley/Doug and Ben show up after the meat locker right? So they easily outnumber the St John’s, a plan could have been formulated easily enough i’d say. Another reason this imaginary scenario wouldn’t happen is because they need Kat as much as the St John’s do due to her somewhat medic skills.
But that is HONESTY! Lol he may look like an asshole to you but he says it like it is. That is how i see it. But tell me this, why should he agree to what they say and why should they agree to what he says too? Who should win the argument? Why is Kenny being ousted as the villain for disagreeing when Lee or other people are doing the same thing technically? So who wins? I also don’t agree that he doesn’t care about anyone but his “inner circle”, he acts like he doesn’t but you aren’t seeing the bigger picture in my opinion:
He went out hunting with Lee and Mark to find food not just for himself and family but for the whole group.
I know you disagree but he thought about the group’s safety in the meat locker and did what he did.
He made further runs into Macon with Lee to get supplies for the whole group.
Despite his problems with Lilly he still wanted her and everyone to leave in the RV with him to find somewhere safer rather than everyone being at risk of bandits threatening to kill them.
After Lilly kills Carley/Doug, if you bring her in the RV, Kenny says he wants everyone out and not to be trapped in there with her thus showing regard to others safety.
He had numerous chances to go his own way after his family died but still stayed with the group.
He fixed up the boat for everyone and not just for himself and “inner circle”.
I admit that he probably didn’t care much for the Season 2 group but I don’t blame him to be honest. They virtually gate crashed his new home where he was living a happy life (he was happy as we saw), he probably felt pissed off knowing Nick killed Matthew when finding out later, he obviously liked him, they were to blame for him and his girlfriend being taken hostage and he was forced to stay with them then. I guess Kenny also felt like he needed to be responsible for that group due to the fact they did help Clementine out in Episode 1. Despite how he may have not got along with everyone, he still helped deliver Rebecca’s baby, he got a truck working for the whole group not just himself, “i bring them a working truck and they act like i just shit in their cereal”. None of them were grateful for that so I don’t blame him for being hostile when they “disagree” with him. Again, i have to ask, why is Kenny being ousted as the villain just because he’s “mean” to them? Why are the others opinions more important? I’m not saying Kenny’s is any better but what makes their’s superior? It doesn’t at all.
I’m basically saying in all this that despite not caring much about the group, he probably does care in some way about them because he’s not a heartless fiend like some picture him as. He seemed upset when Luke died too which is strange but actually true if you review that scene.
Phew! This takes like a half a day replying ugh! Thanks for the reply anyway. It’s just going to be something we’ll always disagree on
DID that ever actually come out? Cause honestly, Nick's role deteriorated to exchanging a few one-liners with Kenny, believing Luke will find a way to help get them out, and getting lumped in with the girls in Clementine's place.
No, he wasn't. Lee deserved a much better friend. How I wish Mark took that role...
Kenny is the type of the guy to hate you if you tell him that his shoes don't suit his outfit.
Yeah, looking back, Mark was more a sidekick to Lee than Kenny ever was.
There definitely was time. The numbers I stated are already a wide enough window of time for Kenny to get it figured out in hurry (just watch how much time it takes for Lee to do it in the original), and the fact that Larry was in a cold environment already extends that window indeterminately. People who fall on cold water and get their hearts inactive can survive up to 45 minutes without aid! And this is us completely ignoring that Lilly was giving him CPR! Blood was getting to his brain. You don't need to be a professional for that by the way. We are taught these things in school! And Lilly was probably as informed as she could be on the whole procedure should her dad have a heart attack.
Larry was going to be fine for a good while. The whole mega urgency of the situation was 90% Kenny's escalation and panic. It really wasn't an "insane risk" and it would still not be one until at least a good while had passed (that is if the CPR wasn't working, because if it was, they had literally hours). And Kenny didn't even need a "good while" to get the meat locker figured out. It takes Lee less than five minutes to get it open (this while also chatting with Kenny, checking on Clem, calmly asking Lilly for permission to check Larry's pockets, etc.) imagine how much it would've taken if they were in a rush!
After the doors are open and Lilly and Lee armed (and come on, Kenny and Lee easily get weapons once they get to the next room, takes them seconds), the risk of anyone dying, even if Larry ended up turning, would become minimal and even non-existent for Kenny, who would be outside the room saving his family.
Now I think you're misunderstanding me about Lilly. Losing Lilly's sanity cost Carley's life. Losing Lilly's cooperation with Kenny made them stay in the motor inn for longer, which cost Duck's and by extension Katjaa's lives. You're saying it doesn't matter, but losing Lilly ended up being just as lethal to the members of the group as Larry's walker could've been. That's what I'm saying. Breaking Lilly cost lives as well.
And with that in mind, going back to the meat locker, there is no complex medical aid for a victim of a heart attack. You either give them aspirin (which is such rare medicine), nitroglycerin (which Lilly mostly likely still had at the motor in as precaution) or, and probably the most practical at the moment, he had to be zapped. In lack of better equipment, any mobile electrical object would've worked, like a lantern with a bulb. It was absolutely not impossible to save Larry after the door was open. But you know what? This is actually beyond my point in the OP. Even if Larry ended up dying after the door was open, we would still be left with a better outcome. Lilly would not have hated Kenny's guts, she would probably even have been grateful and definitely more cooperative with him just for trying. Hell, maybe she wouldn't have gone as crazy considering she would not have to live under the same roof as her dad's killers. Again, this could've saved Duck and would've definitely saved Carley.
There is no way reanimation time varies with compressions or blood flow! It's just not possible considering what we know and have seen of the TWD universe. We've seen people reanimate a thousand times by now. A person dies, their heart stops, then they reanimate. Sometimes they reanimate as soon as two minutes pass by, others take 10 minutes or more, and they all have no heartbeat. The virus is already in the brain, reanimation is simply the virus taking control of the stem (as we see in the show), I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure blood would not affect that, but the electromagnetic pulses in the brain would.
I am aware the writers wanted it to be ambiguous (I think it was on the subtitle files something like "Larry inhales. Is he alive or reanimating?"). We, of course, have looked into this scene more in depth than the writers themselves already, and the fact is that, no matter the writers' intentions, there is no way a human becomes braindead after 3 minutes of no pulse. It's just not possible. Just like in Fear, they kinda portrayed it as if it's possible for a person's brain to immediately die. That is not so.
There is a choice in the meat locker scene just as there is a choice in the situation I described. You either take a risk to save a member of the group, or deem them as "already dead" and expendable. Even when they are not. After all, say the wrong words to Brenda? Lee gets shot in the head. Hesitate a few milliseconds? Boom, Dany blows Lee's face off. By your logic, since saving Kenny's family is such a huge risk as well, Lee should not have tried at all. Thing is, it was not impossible to save Kenny's family, just as it wasn't impossible to save Larry or at least neutralize the risk he would've eventually posed without smashing his head in. It's equally asshole-ish to not even try to save a group member.
It would be funny seeing Danny and Andy try to go against our fully armed group of 9 people at the motor inn, lol.
You keep bringing up how I would've acted if it were me inside the me locker. The actual me. And I'm telling you finding a way out is as good a way of saving myself as is killing Larry, so that's probably what i'd immediately try to do. Can't say I would stay too close for the aftermath after I had gotten out, though. Considering killing him would come later but I would definitely at least wait until his skin grew cold, lol. Of course, breaking out of that meat locker should take like 3 minutes in a hurry so I would really not have to worry about that.
Kenny is "ousted as a villain" simply because he rarely can be reasoned with. He doesn't tell it as it is, he tells it as he thinks it is or how he wants it to be. He never concedes, it's his way, or no one's way.
I could go over everything in your bucket list, but let me sum it up. Helping the group as a way to help himself and his family is still helping himself and his family in the end. You can also clearly see that his whole boat plan was something he put in his own mind to keep himself going. And in the end, when it was all said and done, who was really up for his ridiculous boat plan? Christa and Omid weren't, my Lee was not as well for sure. Simply sticking around, pursuing some obsession just to keep himself going under the excuse that he's doing it for the group doesn't imply care. And again, I understand prioritizing family and self, I'm not blaming him for it, I'm just not pretending he gave a damn about anyone else, at least not until literally losing everything, including his obsession with the goddamn boat, and redeeming himself by the end of S1.
Ask yourself if it was Katjaa and Duck collapsed in the meat locker. You think he wouldn't take the chance then? You said it yourself, he didn't care about Larry, he would've dropped that salt lick in anyone's head but his family's. They're all immediately expendable to him as soon as they pose the slightest threat. Lilly, Clem, Carley, Ben, Lee... That's pretty clear to me.
I admit it was commendable of him to help with AJ, but then again, did he do it out of some weird desire of wanting a replacement son or did he truly just want to help Rebecca? You saw how he would hold him after he got delivered, how he would treat AJ as his and no one else's.
Do you also recall the line "Look, I don't give two shits about what you people think. I got this truck working, so I say where we go.". You really think he did it for them? And not for his idealized future of getting AJ to Wellington? It's just like that boat, you paint it as him doing it for the group, but it's really just him doing whatever gets him closer to his objectives. I don't see it as anything else.
What makes the other's attitude superior is that they were all communicating, trying to find common ground. Kenny wasn't. He wanted him to do what he wanted, no discussion.
I'm not gonna lie, I'm quite tired of talking about Kenny, and I was hoping I could've avoided doing so. Neither of us will probably ever change our minds about him in a lifetime lol. I realize you believe he acts with the group's best interest at heart, I simply never saw that, but believe it or not I don't see Kenny as a villain. I don't see things as black and white. I sided with him when he had good ideas (leaving the motor inn) and supported him as best I could when he was handling situations well (the shootout in No Going Back). The problem is these were extremely rare, short, moments for me, and more often than not, we were butting heads.
And that sums up just how the majority of people who hate Kenny judge him lol. When the guy is honest about his feelings and may come across as horrible, people hate him for it but because Mark is oh so nice, he makes a better friend.
Kenny was realistically human, where as most characters were fake, too nice or one dimensional. That’s not to say i don’t like Mark, he was great but wasn’t around long enough. As for me though, Kenny and Lee were bro’s in my game. The way it should be in my opinion
He's a real bro but sometimes the writers screwed up with him.
I remember how i sided with him everytime in season 1 and when i didn't agree about killing Larry the guy suddenly forgets everything you've done before for him that's bullshit.
I don't hate Kenny. My feelings for him are mixed - there are moments when I am like: "You go, Kenny!" and other when I am like: "Okay, why did you do that?"
I like the scene where him and Lee make up if they did each other wrong in Episode 5.
I just wish he was a bit more appreciative.
You mean most of the characters in Season 1? That's a bit far!
It's the ANF characters that needed to be more realistic and fleshed out, if you ask me.
Mark is the man - he predicts the entire second episode and has our back in the end as a walker!
sigh let me cut this slightly short, Larry was dying either way. There is no fucking way about it. Even if the group had revived him, did everything you said getting out, where was the medicine? Back at the Motor inn? You think he’d survive long enough for the group to travel all the way back to get the meds then back again? First of all he WOULD need more than pills to recover from a fricken heart attack so that theory goes out of the window. How were they going to zap him? How the heck would they even find something instantly to do that? They realistically wouldn’t. He would die shortly after being revived without the right help, my mum is a nurse and has dealt with this so many times in hospital. Would they carry him back to the lodge? A big guy like that? Not to mention dealing with the walkers that were on the way to the house. Sorry but your thinking here in my view is absolutely insane. It took 5 minutes to get out of the locker you say but that is only because Larry was dead at that point and because there was no urgency to get out once the threat was dealt with. No one would think straight and work out how to escape when they know their life is in danger at that moment so it definitely would have taken longer than 5 minutes. If i was in that room and knew my life was in danger, I would do what it takes to survive and keep my group safe from the threat. You just wouldn’t stupidly risk trying to save someone in case you failed in reviving said person. Of course Kenny wouldn’t do it if it was his family, who the he’ll could?? But someone would HAVE to step up and if no one would, they would all be dead due to hesitating or taking a stupid fucking risk.
Now about Lilly, her later actions of killing Carley and being paranoid etc wouldn’t have occurred not for the reason you have said but because she would have been dead in that meat locker! It was either her having a mental breakdown or dying in that locker, what would you choose? Life or death? Lilly wanted to stay at the motor inn long before her dad died, she already didn’t like the idea about it when Lee mentioned it during the time he was handing out food. Kat and Duck dying was a separate matter entirely from Lilly. That was down to Ben’s dishonesty.
About the reanimation, i said THEY only had little knowledge about people turning not what we as fans know about how it works. They only had Mr Parker/Travis to go on and they saw how fast he turned.
Think deeper instead of shooting my theory down. What if they waited till they were asleep? Take one of them hostage, maybe even kill each of them discreetly. I didn’t say they would go in all guns blazing.
He does tell it like it is though! Not all the time no but if he tells you your idea is shit, most of the time it probably is the way i see it too. The point is, it’s honesty, he is telling you what he thinks and people like you and many others hate it because it comes across as ignorant or unreasonable but it’s so much more than that.
You can also clearly see that his whole boat plan was something he put in his own mind to keep himself going. And in the end, when it was all said and done, who was really up for his ridiculous boat plan? Christa and Omid weren't, my Lee was not as well for sure. Simply sticking around, pursuing some obsession just to keep himself going under the excuse that he's doing it for the group doesn't imply care.
Oh that’s funny? Yet everyone seemed to still go ahead with the plan of getting what was needed for the boat, everyone still wanted to get on that thing by the end. This goes back to the honesty thing with Kenny, if everyone seemed uninterested with the boat plan then why didnt they speak up and be honest? Its people like that who I wouldn’t trust if i was in a group. You need honest people who will tell you when they disagree or not happy about a plan or situation.
At least Kenny had a plan instead of sitting around doing fuck all. Christa wanted to hang around in a house hoping her boyfriend magically gets better? Yeah that helps a lot.
He did care enough about the people in his group in both seasons I disagree with that he didn’t care. Why else would he stay with them otherwise? Why not take the boat for himself or take the truck with Clem and AJ and leave? Why when there was a capacity problem with the boat did he discuss that there wouldn’t be enough room for everyone? I honestly feel he is being misjudged here. Just because he acts like a dick at times or doesn’t show that he cares doesn’t mean he doesn’t.
If you delivered a baby and the father wasn’t around i think you’d have some attachment to it. He cared enough about Rebecca to help her. I would say after Rebecca died yes he probably did make it his mission to have a replacement son of sorts. He was a dad after all and no one else knew what it was like being a dad except him. Having an attachment to a baby again for Kenny must have been tough. He even says he wanted to raise him better than how he raised Duck. This was his second chance.
Yes, he fixed the truck when no one else knew how to or had any form of plan. So he was rude about it? Maybe if they had thanked him or shown some sort of appreciation then maybe it would have been different.
It was for AJ as the main priority of course but its as i said before, why would he not just take off with Clem and AJ if he didn’t also get it working for everyone else? So yes i do think he did it for them, i KNOW he did after he said “I bring them a working truck and they act like i just shit in their cereal”. I think that’s pretty clear.
Well you can think otherwise but no I completely disagree obviously. He would have took off on his own if he didn’t care about other people around him.
But its the same outcome when you look at it. They gave their view, he disagreed and then they disagreed/argued back so again because Kenny gets angry and the other unrealistic characters don’t, it paints him as the bad guy? I’ll always disagree. Their attitude can be considered just as bad but without the rudeness. Big deal.
Yep you’re right, i spend half a day typing on my phone back to you about Kenny and it does get tiresome. I haven’t done so for ages for that reason. I guess its the only thing keeping me on this forum. We will never agree with each other that is true. Thanks for reading. I’ll try to drop this subject.
I will say it again, you can sustain a person who suffered a cardiac arrest with CPR. Finding something electrical to shock him with in the farm is not inconceivable at all. Hell, I just now remembered, you literally have a tazer in the next room! Lol.
I'm not sure what you mean by recovery. Larry's heart stopped due to an overload of physical effort, not a clot, the heart itself wasn't damaged. If Larry survived being zapped and his heart started pumping again he would be out of the woods. The most worrying thing afterwards would be brain damage due to lack of oxygenation, but since CPR started being performed literally seconds after he fell how I doubt any brain cell could even have died.
I don't see how being in a rush would make Lee take longer to find his way out, but whatever you say. You should also know that a big part of those 5 minutes I mentioned is Lee comforting Clem for Larry's death and talking to Kenny about it.
You're also making up this supposed panic which would have Lee somehow fail at finding a way out. There is no way Larry would be dead for at least a good 10 minutes (again, completely ignoring Lilly's CPR which would probably keep Larry going for a lot more time!). Bend the situation however you want, but they were able to get out of there pretty quickly.
Larry was savable. I have described a way to do it for the third time now. I don't know what else to add.
I know how Lilly felt about leaving. Convincing her might've been easier is all I'm saying.
Dialogue with Carley confirms they were keeping watch at night. Plus, Andy and Danny would have no real reason to attack the group after they got their vet anyways. It's not their style, they tempt people in to eat them, they don't attack them.
I didn't say Kenny isn't honest, I'm saying he can be so stubborn he never listens to anyone else.
I don't doubt Kenny would've eventually taken off with the truck and the baby if the group insisted on... trying to have a say in their own future! Kenny's attitude is absolutely not the same. After the group disagrees with him, they actually give reasons as to why their idea is better. The formula at Howe's, the cold. How does Kenny respond to, you know, reasonable thinking? He leaves mid conversation, screaming like a fucking 5 year old on tantrum. That's the difference. He can't take his ideals being challenged because what matter to him is not the group's welfare, but what he fantasizes as a good plan. Communicating with your fellow survivors about what's the best course of action is not "unrealistic", it's just what normal people would do.
Ah man, now I wish that could've been a choice!
"GAAAH!! What the hell are you doin to me, you bastard!"
"Saving your life."
"What?! You're lying, you no good mur-AAUGH-AUGH-AGUAH-AUGH!!!"
A heart attack victim who is revived cannot survive without immediate medical care, how many times do i have to say this? The group did not have this, they would NOT get back to the lodge and back to the farm in time to help especially with the St John’s around, hell Danny was guarding the barn for goodness sake and you still think he can survive? He wouldn’t. It doesn’t take a genius to see this dude. You can shock him with the tazer, you can revive him but he would die soon after either way.
How do you know he didn’t have a clot brought on from the stress? Are you psychic? Every heart attack survivor my mum has dealt with have all needed medication and hooked to a machine immediately upon being revived and Larry would be no different. For one thing they are so weak and ill when being revived they would be pretty helpless to be able to move. You say his heart wasn’t damage? Of course it was! He had a heart condition and was taking regular meds, Lilly said he had a few attacks he couldn’t get over and went to the hospital in the past, so it was definitely damaged. He could very well have had a clot, we’ll never know the exact cause.
You don’t see how being in a rush would take longer? I already said why. And i am not making shit up thank you very much and nor do I recall saying he would fail at getting out. I will say this yet again, If you are in a situation where you are shitting yourself and panicking at something (in this case Larry), you would not be able to think straight at finding a way out in a fast amount of time because i am pretty sure you would be thinking more about the danger in the room. When the threat was no more, you can relax so to speak and think more clearly on how to get out. That is what i am trying to say so when in a terrified state, you are more likely to take longer to find a way out because of the more important thing on your mind which would be dealing with the danger. So no i still do not think they would escape quick enough under that sort of pressure and they certainly shouldn’t be stupid enough to take the risk helping him in case the CPR failed.
If you knew exactly how to get out of the locker or the escape was planned beforehand and you rushed then of course you could get out in record time but that was not what i was saying so you misunderstood, probably my fault for being a shit explainer right?
And i have said several times that even if he was revived, he was not saveable because he would die soon after without medical help, there was no way they could get out of the farm, back to the motel and back again to get him meds which they may have ran out of for all we know. The St John’s were nearby, would have gone and checked the meat locker at any time, walkers were soon going to hit the farm, Larry would have been caught up in that too. So overall he was not saveable.
I said this was a theory of something that could happen and it still doesn’t mean it wouldn’t occur regardless if it was out of character for them. They could easily sneak in and do what i said if they had a good reason to.
My point is, leaving them to continue what they were doing is still pretty risky either way.
Nah i dont think so. I actually think he’d accept what the others would say eventually like he normally does after he’s had a rant. Especially if Clem decided to stay as well.
Going back to Howe’s was just as risky as Kenny’s plan, there was no winning route so I don’t think their plan was better at all. They had already travelled hours maybe days away from Howe’s, the herd that was there may not have necessarily moved on and if it had then Carvers people may have still been there and got things back under control and remained a threat at the place.
Btw he didn’t leave mid conversation, Jane walked off before he could even say anything further. He wanted to leave right away so they wouldn’t waste time but anyway, not important now is it.
And people can’t take it when he speaks his mind and hear stuff that they don’t want to hear.
Then why does he stay with them? Why does he say he brings them a working a truck if he didn’t want them around? Please answer the question. I disagree as usual dude.
If said survivors equally don’t want to listen to him then communication can’t work and they didn’t want to listen to him either numerous times or did you miss that? It works both ways but because Kenny reacts differently and comes across as angry, it means to you and others that he is in the wrong for his attitude. Well i beg to differ. And when i said they were unrealistic, it has nothing to do with that scene, i am referring to them having unrealistic human traits compared to Kenny. Like for example how nice you’d start being to a little Russian prick who earlier had been involved in trying to kill you. Ridiculous. Let’s not go there though please.
You have an answer for everything but so do i lol. Going to bed ironwoodlover, goodnight from England
The short time we had to meet Mark is noticeable as he seemed to have a lot more affinity with Lee than Kenny. On the other hand, Kenny is that kind of guy who has a good heart but is a bit nervous when problems come up.
I’ll drop the subject now dude. Sorry for arguing or whatever. You know it’s nothing personal, i just see things completely differently. We should chat about Uncharted sometime if you have played it? I bet we have a lot in common with other games lol
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Absolutely no worries. We're just talking about fictional characters after all.
Don’t please
The joke is that you earned an award for bringing Peace, but okay.
Which is funny since I heard Nazis valued gold hair and blue eyes and yet I'm sure a number of them lacked that..
Of course not...Kenny was for Kenny and his family....not a bad trait...just not to be trusted when you are trying to survive as well.
Ok, thought you posted because you’re glad i was stopping
I can multitask.