I don't want to be mean but did you bother to read what I said? Please points one sentence where I said I ship them. I didn't even talk about what Bruce felt.
I say only that their relation always has been ambiguous as it has been oftenly made in comics.
You people are too serious about this ship lol. It's getting beyond ridiculous now all these friends, romance and John did nothing wrong thr… moreeads. I feel like the moderators need to set up one romance thread for everthing to clean up all these romance discussions that are retreading the same points.
I myself have been interested in the potential of a Harley romance option but honestly it's not realistic based on what's happened and the narrative Telltale has told likewise so is a Joker romance. I think Bruce has made it pretty clear he is straight and has a public image of being a playboy womanizer.
Yes, it actually was. Unfortunately, there are many relationships where manipulation, abuse, and murder takes place. Those are unhealthy relationships, such as the one between the Joker and Harley. I already watched the video that you linked, and I can still use the celebrity worship syndrome as an example, considering that we're talking about Bruce and John.
You were being sarcastic (i.e. "passive-aggressive much?"). It's the use of irony to mock or convey contempt, and it was completely uncalled for in what could otherwise be a good discussion. You're accusing me of ignoring facts, and being hypocritical, since you're now stating your opinions as facts. Either way, I can't have a reasonable conversation with you.
You people are too serious about this ship lol. It's getting beyond ridiculous now all these friends, romance and John did nothing wrong threads. I feel like the moderators need to set up one romance thread for everthing to clean up all these romance discussions that are retreading the same points.
I myself have been interested in the potential of a Harley romance option but honestly it's not realistic based on what's happened and the narrative Telltale has told likewise so is a Joker romance. I think Bruce has made it pretty clear he is straight and has a public image of being a playboy womanizer.
I agree with you completely. The moderators should just close these discussions.
The 1990's was never meant as a romantic interest. He manipulates her, beats her, tries to kill her and shit. Have you even watch the video … moreI brought? You can't use the worship syndrome in that case.
"Also, I never said that you "only" regurgitate." Seeing you respond to my list of arguments only by this, you kinda meant it. Nothing sarcastically when I spoke about it.
You seem to care only about facts but ignores completely when one brings you some. Discussing that way is quite unpleasant.
I mentionned the video for your take about the Harley/Joker relationship in general, not about Telltale. Your take on the syndrom could work only in Telltale Universe.
Except if I have a problem of translation (which I can have), are you going to tell me that "reingurgigate" is a positive word and doesn't have any connotation? That's what I meant by passive aggressive.
And yes you're avoiding my examples. Ones doesn't use reason when one avoid what the other says. A pity because I have been quite receiptful to your arguments.
"I agree with you completely. The moderators should just close these discussions."
Well if you don't like those, you can still avoid it instead of removing a topic where people can discuss about it.. It wasn't even about shipping this far until gamingdevil talked about it.
Yes, it actually was. Unfortunately, there are many relationships where manipulation, abuse, and murder takes place. Those are unhealthy rel… moreationships, such as the one between the Joker and Harley. I already watched the video that you linked, and I can still use the celebrity worship syndrome as an example, considering that we're talking about Bruce and John.
You were being sarcastic (i.e. "passive-aggressive much?"). It's the use of irony to mock or convey contempt, and it was completely uncalled for in what could otherwise be a good discussion. You're accusing me of ignoring facts, and being hypocritical, since you're now stating your opinions as facts. Either way, I can't have a reasonable conversation with you.
@gamingdevil800 said:
You people are too serious about this ship lol. It's getting beyond ridiculous now all these friends, romance and John did nothing wrong threads. I feel like the moderators need to set up one r… [view original content]
The title of this topic is "Did Bruce "love" John? About the "You broke my heart John" option"...
This is definitely a romance topic lol or at least very suggestive of something being there.
I mentionned the video for your take about the Harley/Joker relationship in general, not about Telltale. Your take on the syndrom could work… more only in Telltale Universe.
Except if I have a problem of translation (which I can have), are you going to tell me that "reingurgigate" is a positive word and doesn't have any connotation? That's what I meant by passive aggressive.
And yes you're avoiding my examples. Ones doesn't use reason when one avoid what the other says. A pity because I have been quite receiptful to your arguments.
"I agree with you completely. The moderators should just close these discussions."
Well if you don't like those, you can still avoid it instead of removing a topic where people can discuss about it.. It wasn't even about shipping this far until gamingdevil talked about it.
The title of this topic is "Did Bruce "love" John? About the "You broke my heart John" option"...
This is definitely a romance topic lol or at least very suggestive of something being there.
Celebrity worship syndrome can be applied to characters in other universes, excluding any that were created by Telltale Games.
"Regurgitation" can have an either positive, neutral, or negative connotation to it.
Discussions such as these typically cause more problems than they solved. It's only when the members who are commenting in the discussion can remain civil that they shouldn't be closed. However, the moderators do have the ultimate authority, but I can just see where this is going.
I mentionned the video for your take about the Harley/Joker relationship in general, not about Telltale. Your take on the syndrom could work… more only in Telltale Universe.
Except if I have a problem of translation (which I can have), are you going to tell me that "reingurgigate" is a positive word and doesn't have any connotation? That's what I meant by passive aggressive.
And yes you're avoiding my examples. Ones doesn't use reason when one avoid what the other says. A pity because I have been quite receiptful to your arguments.
"I agree with you completely. The moderators should just close these discussions."
Well if you don't like those, you can still avoid it instead of removing a topic where people can discuss about it.. It wasn't even about shipping this far until gamingdevil talked about it.
Well quoting from the main topic:
"Thinking that this is romantic love is just misinterpreting things in my opinion."
Don't stop yourself to the title and actually read what he means.
Well seeing the syndrom is described as "an obsessive addictive disorder in which a person becomes overly involved with the details of a celebrity's personal and professional life" and that the Joker doesn't (want to) know who Batman is it's hard to apply this syndrom to others Jokers except for the Telltale one.
"Regurgitation" can have an either positive, neutral, or negative connotation to it.
Ok, I guess you had neutral then.
Celebrity worship syndrome can be applied to characters in other universes, excluding any that were created by Telltale Games.
"Regurgita… moretion" can have an either positive, neutral, or negative connotation to it.
Discussions such as these typically cause more problems than they solved. It's only when the members who are commenting in the discussion can remain civil that they shouldn't be closed. However, the moderators do have the ultimate authority, but I can just see where this is going.
Now I find it just sad. Telltale did a fantastic job writing Bruce and John's relationship in this game a relationship which is central to their game. This is ambiguous enough for each interpretation to be taken seriously be it a romantic or a platonic one. When we discuss about Bruce and John's relationship we can discuss about :
the differences and similarities between this version and the ones that preceeded
the effects of mental illness ( possibly BPD ) on someone's relationship and feelings
the line between platonic, romantic love, or something else that couldn't be classified ?
the unconscious and whether or not John's words and actions say the same thing.
and so on and so on .
Even if I strongly believe John is in fact not in love with Harley in this version at all ( from every proposition I have made it's the one I have the most confidence in ), I'd be willing to read someone who think differently. Those discussions are interesting in my opinion, and we can go as far as learning something new. Maybe we are not the ones taking the ''ship'' too seriously, maybe you are the one not taking enough time to consider an alternative perspective.
I never saw Bruce say he was straight, or ''make it clear'' in any other way. Also if you think that celebrities public image is in any way reliable to make a conclusion on their sexuality then maybe you should reconsider. It's not reliable in real life, it's not reliable for Bruce Wayne, the general opinion people have of you and me ( who are not celebrities, I assume ) is not necessarily reliable and yet it still is better than one on the guy who manages to hide that he is Batman from the general public. Here is another interesting topic we can discuss. Mediaplay and everyone's perception of Bruce's every action is afterall a topic of the game.
As for putting all the thread that are related to romance together, I guess that would be against everything the moderators seem to be aiming for ( specific topics ). I do not care personnaly, as I think confronting and comparing ships can be interesting, but I also believe that some people will be annoyed by the mess.
You people are too serious about this ship lol. It's getting beyond ridiculous now all these friends, romance and John did nothing wrong thr… moreeads. I feel like the moderators need to set up one romance thread for everthing to clean up all these romance discussions that are retreading the same points.
I myself have been interested in the potential of a Harley romance option but honestly it's not realistic based on what's happened and the narrative Telltale has told likewise so is a Joker romance. I think Bruce has made it pretty clear he is straight and has a public image of being a playboy womanizer.
I understand that, and I also want to make it clear that I never said that your interpretation was wrong, I was merely stating that I can relate to John Doe's pain.
In your previous post you were describing Joker and Batman's relationship as more symbolic than substantial and I want to point out that the trope of many literature themes in the arts today and in classic times is what is described as "romantic friendships"
Even on this day and age the historical study of romantic friendships in the arts or in real life is still debated about on its true nature. The taboo in old times may have driven the sexual aspect of such relationships to stay hidden. Yet it can also be misinterpreted when is only about a friendship. Even so, there is a inextricable connection between romantic friendships of the past and desire in same-sex relationships.
In the arts, there are many descriptions of the emotions felt towards two characters in such relationships, that verge on the romantic and sensual. Sometimes, even the forbidden aspect of such unusual relationship is the focal driving point. But the focus is only the intensity of the relationship rather than the sexuality. There is also a disbelief and sometimes even ridiculousness in the way this relationships work that can be very unrealistic. But that is exaclty the thing about fantasies. They work regardless of how absurd they look. The most important aspect of this romantic friendships is how the two characters involved feel towards the other.
"You seem to be saying that John's obsession with Bruce can't under any circumstances be non-romantic, too. Given that the Joker usually has some sort of obsession with Batman in the varying series that they've been in (most of them clearly not romantic), I don't think that's fair to say. Being obsessed with the idea of someone doesn't have to be romantic, especially considering how unstable John is. John admires Bruce intensely because he's a role model--he's fascinated by the empire Bruce maintains, he loves the brutality and fast action of Batman, etc."
As I said, I was merely stating that I can relate to that stuff. I'm not saying that someone can't just simply admire their idols without having to atcually be in love with them.
But John Doe's emotions and reactions on this game is what I can relate the most. He completely felt burned and disappointed by Bruce refusal to believe on him. John is looking for an inspiration to create his own persona. And as you mentioned, he looks up to Bruce as his idol, his muse. And let me tell you this: You can idolize someone from afar and fall in love with them, once you get to meet them in person.
I know what is like to fall in love with someone whom you totally idolized and respected for a long time, only to get used by that person to get an advantage. In my case it was a job situation. It shatters your heart into a millon pieces and you are left with nothing more than regret and anger inside. Mostly towards yourself.
In John's case I can relate to the huge dissapointment once he undestood that someone like Bruce Wayne would never look up to him in the same way he does. And he felt totally betrayed that his idol wouldn't belive on him when in John's mind he is giving everything for Bruce. He foolishly and naively opened his heart and his faith on Bruce, despite Bruce's deceptions. John also lied to Bruce though, but on John's perspective of the situation he is giving everything he has to please his idol. His lies towards Bruce's felt to me as lies you stupidly say to someone you crush too much. You try very hard not to look bad in front of them.
John even went as far as to lie to himself towards Harley. He betrays her for Bruce and kept secrets from her. Sabotages her plans. Even as the Joker he still cared for Bruce more. He didn't reveal Batman's identity to her, and each time Harley is about to kill Bruce, John hesitates.
And this is because, despite all the hate he felt towards this man that ripped his heart in cold blooded murder as he calls it, he can't bare to actually watch Bruce die. And he was going to die horribly like the people at Wayne Enterprises. When you are angry and mad towards someone you love this much you don't really meant to hurt them, you want them to feel the same pain you are feeling. Joker is totally crazy and dangerous though.
As John Doe he was unsure of himself and insecure. He was looking for someone to reassure him, that being Harley or Bruce. The only two people in his life that means a lot to him. I belive he also loved Harley and that he genuinely cared for her well being. Is very clear in his reactions towards her, she means a lot to him. Yet, John himself isn't totally sure about his own feelings when he compared Bruce to her.
When Harley is around, you can see she also tries to seduce him to keep him under her thumb. Maybe for him, he felt she was the only person outside Arkham that seemed to have an interest on him. He himself says she found him during a dark time, and that he felt uneven and out of place in a world that dosen't understands him. Maybe he fell for Harley's unique attention towards him.
During the whole Season John is looking for a light to guide him, someone to love and be loved by. And depending on your playthrough that can be Harley or Bruce.
He says to Bruce that he worshiped him. And you can see is true in every level. He gambled his loyalty in the Pact, his trust towards Harley and his freedom outside Arkham for Bruce. In both endings Joker also deseperately clings towards any assurance of love from Bruce, even a very small one regardless of what that is. You can completely see in the emotion that he is in love. Not the words. The words lie.
"Like you said at the end, you're allowed to have your interpretation, and I can see how being queer could change your interpretation of certain lines. But I don't think that's what the writers were trying to fully communicate."
On this I'm only going to say:
You can look at a sunset and feel the beauty of the colors, the serenity of the clouds and have all kinds of feelings and emotions towards what you are looking at. Your feelings are completely yours and the person standing beside you can feel nothing towards the same things you feel so strongly about. Or feel totally different on the same things you do. None of this invalidates what each person feels towards that sunset. The sunset is just there. What draws you to stop and look at it in the first place, is your own individuality.
Why we love Batman and his world? Each one of us looks at different aspects that relate to us that are unique to our own personalities and individuality. The relationship between Joker and Batman also draws in us different perspectives. So fighting about which one is "correct" is like trying to tell someone that the coulds on a sunset dosen't take familiar forms.
@Piggs
I understand that, and I also want to make it clear that I never said that your interpretation was wrong, I was merely stating tha… moret I can relate to John Doe's pain.
In your previous post you were describing Joker and Batman's relationship as more symbolic than substantial and I want to point out that the trope of many literature themes in the arts today and in classic times is what is described as "romantic friendships"
Even on this day and age the historical study of romantic friendships in the arts or in real life is still debated about on its true nature. The taboo in old times may have driven the sexual aspect of such relationships to stay hidden. Yet it can also be misinterpreted when is only about a friendship. Even so, there is a inextricable connection between romantic friendships of the past and desire in same-sex relationships.
In the arts, there are many descriptions of the emotions felt towards two characters in… [view original content]
@Piggs
I understand that, and I also want to make it clear that I never said that your interpretation was wrong, I was merely stating tha… moret I can relate to John Doe's pain.
In your previous post you were describing Joker and Batman's relationship as more symbolic than substantial and I want to point out that the trope of many literature themes in the arts today and in classic times is what is described as "romantic friendships"
Even on this day and age the historical study of romantic friendships in the arts or in real life is still debated about on its true nature. The taboo in old times may have driven the sexual aspect of such relationships to stay hidden. Yet it can also be misinterpreted when is only about a friendship. Even so, there is a inextricable connection between romantic friendships of the past and desire in same-sex relationships.
In the arts, there are many descriptions of the emotions felt towards two characters in… [view original content]
Thank you for writing this, I agree with it wholeheartedly. I'm not exactly good at explaining my words, No offense intended to others, but from what I saw on here, on the side that interprets their relationship as friends/platonic-- are mostly ones that try to discredit other fans, who find their relationship 'romantic' in their own interpretation of it. And it isn't right to do that to others since each of us have a different view on it, you shouldn't be trying to force others to take your side as a fact(?).
Neither of us know the writers vision, or what goes through their head when writing these scenes.
But I do know that Telltale themselves ship this couple, and that's not a bad thing, neither is it for others to interpret it as friendship, or romantic. Its the reason why the other thread got shut down, everyone was arguing and against the idea of Batjoke relationship, when there really was no reason to do that; pretty much due to not wanting to play it if the option was available.
I ship it, but it kinda makes me sad to see people be like this because of the ship-- but is okay if its with like Harley, Selina, or even Avesta. Its not really fair either to attack(?) others who ship Batjokes, or others who interprets their relationship as romantic, not many are attacking those other ships.
I don't know, those are my thoughts from what I read on here, I'm sorry if what I said came off mean or offends anyone.
@Piggs
I understand that, and I also want to make it clear that I never said that your interpretation was wrong, I was merely stating tha… moret I can relate to John Doe's pain.
In your previous post you were describing Joker and Batman's relationship as more symbolic than substantial and I want to point out that the trope of many literature themes in the arts today and in classic times is what is described as "romantic friendships"
Even on this day and age the historical study of romantic friendships in the arts or in real life is still debated about on its true nature. The taboo in old times may have driven the sexual aspect of such relationships to stay hidden. Yet it can also be misinterpreted when is only about a friendship. Even so, there is a inextricable connection between romantic friendships of the past and desire in same-sex relationships.
In the arts, there are many descriptions of the emotions felt towards two characters in… [view original content]
I really agree with you on this. And i wanted to say something about the whole "batjokes gets so much hate, but every other ship discussion can stay open" thing, so I'm glad you brought it up. Its unfair to the people who do ship John and Bruce. There is nothing at all wrong with the ship, it is very much a realistic possibility, and many of us like to discuss there relationship.
Its super frustrating though when things are trying to be discussed in a civil manor and then a select few of people who would rather ship Bruce with Avesta or Cat women need to express there strong hatred for the ship. Don't get me wrong though, you can totally disagree with a ship, but to express it in a way that comes off as passive aggressive is just unfair. From what I've seen, Batjokes shippers don't go into the Avesta romance thread and start attacking and putting that ship down.
With that said, I do think someone should just open up a Bruce/John Romance (Official thread) and have all the discussion there to avoid any heated discussions elsewhere.
Thank you for writing this, I agree with it wholeheartedly. I'm not exactly good at explaining my words, No offense intended to others, but … morefrom what I saw on here, on the side that interprets their relationship as friends/platonic-- are mostly ones that try to discredit other fans, who find their relationship 'romantic' in their own interpretation of it. And it isn't right to do that to others since each of us have a different view on it, you shouldn't be trying to force others to take your side as a fact(?).
Neither of us know the writers vision, or what goes through their head when writing these scenes.
But I do know that Telltale themselves ship this couple, and that's not a bad thing, neither is it for others to interpret it as friendship, or romantic. Its the reason why the other thread got shut down, everyone was arguing and against the idea of Batjoke relationship, when there really was no reason to do that; pretty much due to n… [view original content]
Yeah the fact that one can't even have a conversation regarding the possible romantic development of the relationship between John and Bruce it's kinda annoying. I mean I have nothing against people who would prefer Bruce to be with Selina, even though I'm personally not a fan of this ship, all I'd want is to have the chance to talk freely without receiving hate or people starting WWII.
I really agree with you on this. And i wanted to say something about the whole "batjokes gets so much hate, but every other ship discussion … morecan stay open" thing, so I'm glad you brought it up. Its unfair to the people who do ship John and Bruce. There is nothing at all wrong with the ship, it is very much a realistic possibility, and many of us like to discuss there relationship.
Its super frustrating though when things are trying to be discussed in a civil manor and then a select few of people who would rather ship Bruce with Avesta or Cat women need to express there strong hatred for the ship. Don't get me wrong though, you can totally disagree with a ship, but to express it in a way that comes off as passive aggressive is just unfair. From what I've seen, Batjokes shippers don't go into the Avesta romance thread and start attacking and putting that ship down.
With that said, I do think someone should just open up a Bruce/John Romanc… [view original content]
"But I do Telltale themselves ship this couple" Those are the type of words that get you in trouble. Trying to say your view is the canon or something similar kind of seems arrogant even if that's not your intention.
Thank you for writing this, I agree with it wholeheartedly. I'm not exactly good at explaining my words, No offense intended to others, but … morefrom what I saw on here, on the side that interprets their relationship as friends/platonic-- are mostly ones that try to discredit other fans, who find their relationship 'romantic' in their own interpretation of it. And it isn't right to do that to others since each of us have a different view on it, you shouldn't be trying to force others to take your side as a fact(?).
Neither of us know the writers vision, or what goes through their head when writing these scenes.
But I do know that Telltale themselves ship this couple, and that's not a bad thing, neither is it for others to interpret it as friendship, or romantic. Its the reason why the other thread got shut down, everyone was arguing and against the idea of Batjoke relationship, when there really was no reason to do that; pretty much due to n… [view original content]
@Dan10 ...Oh boy... I wasn't really saying it to be arrogant. I do apologize if it comes across like that, I mentioned it based off what I've seen from and heard about from Telltale(That one play through video they did), including about John and Bruce's voice actors If you read from Suzy's post from earlier on page 1.
There's really nothing wrong talking about mentioning something I heard from other people mentioning as well, but I don't believe I remember anywhere in my post that I was trying to make my ship view the canon one.
I didn't for me but I'm just to others that's how they'll see it. Saying that the writers ship it is q bit similar to saying it's canon. I don't think your intention was bad but the wording can be misunderstood.have a nice day I suppose ☺
@Dan10 ...Oh boy... I wasn't really saying it to be arrogant. I do apologize if it comes across like that, I mentioned it based off what I'… moreve seen from and heard about from Telltale(That one play through video they did), including about John and Bruce's voice actors If you read from Suzy's post from earlier on page 1.
There's really nothing wrong talking about mentioning something I heard from other people mentioning as well, but I don't believe I remember anywhere in my post that I was trying to make my ship view the canon one.
Thank you, but your post sort of surprised me? Because I'm not the only one on here mentioning it, and it came across sort of odd...? Aside from that, I hope you have a great day as well!
I didn't for me but I'm just to others that's how they'll see it. Saying that the writers ship it is q bit similar to saying it's canon. I don't think your intention was bad but the wording can be misunderstood.have a nice day I suppose ☺
Thank you, but your post sort of surprised me? Because I'm not the only one on here mentioning it, and it came across sort of odd...? Aside from that, I hope you have a great day as well!
It was most definitely romantic, it has to be, and I'm not just saying that because I want it to be so (which I totally do, I love their relationship in this game!), but it makes too much sense to be otherwise. It would be shitty of Telltale to put in a choice like if it didn't mean something big, and I believe Telltale aren't those kinds of people. It's a 1 in 4 choice that you don't have to pick, but it's there for those that do. I feel I have to be very clear on that fact too, because people want to invade that space for those that do want by saying "it's not in a gay way". I'm not saying you HAVE to see their relationship like that, or maybe it's just not to your taste. I won't hate you for disliking a ship, I have ships I dislike, straight and same-sex, but I don't go around sending hate to those that enjoy it, because that'd be shitty. When you're presented with 3 other options, pick one that suits you. We are the protagonist just as much as Bruce, as we decide what Bruce does. That's the whole point of Telltale games. Javier from The Walking Dead was confirmed bisexual when someone asked if he was, because of a flirting option in-game, and Telltale responded something like "why do you think it's there?" The same thing applies here.
Telltale even confirmed in an article somewhere, speaking about the coffee date scene, and one of the lines said something like "is it really Harley's affection he's after?" It's very clear that Telltale shipped them, just look at the clues:
"Are you in love... with me?"
"Bruce is strong, and smart, and handsome, like super handsome, it's nuts you guys!"
"WHY WON'T YOU LOVE ME!?"
"John and Bruce, Bruce and John, J and B, B and... you know where I'm going with this!" (yes we do John, please stop lol).
There's loads more.
In episode 5, you can't move for BatJokes in the villain route, we already know this, there are clues that some people will have missed. I did an analysis on the fight scene, going through 9 different scenes, and why I thought they meant something bigger than just a brotherly love. I might have been wrong on some of them, but I am certain (or almost certain) on a good chuck of them. One of the most obvious ones is when they're lying on the ground. It's only for a second or so, but do you know what that symbolizes? Endgame:
Look at the shape of the blood in Endgame. The writers said that's deliberate. Telltale have used several references from other Batman media, such as when Gordon got shot in the legs, it's a reference to Barbara in The Killing Joke.
In vigilante route, there are also strong hints. Here's my favourite one. If you say "I can still save him" to Alfred, this happens:
Alfred: You're not...?
Bruce: What Al? ("test me" face)
Alfred: Nothing.
I know for a fact what Alfred was going to say, which was to ask if Bruce was in love with John, because by saying that, Alfred can see that Bruce is being blinded by his feelings, and this is after John caused many casualties in the name of "justice." Alfred then later says "whatever feelings you might have had for John". He's used the word "feelings" when talking about Catwoman too. He didn't use the word "friendship" or whatever when talking about John. And when Bruce looks at the pictures of John on screen, his expression is so lost and pained.
I mean, you COULD look at it in a brotherly way, but the camera angles, the choice of wording, the expression, the shipping hints... it makes absolutely zero sense for it to be that way. Besides, there's plenty of Batman media that suggests or outright says that Bruce has feelings for Joker. Look at the Batman Lego Movie for example. This isn't new.
At the end of the day, ask yourself this: If John was replaced with Selina, what would be your answer?
It was most definitely romantic, it has to be, and I'm not just saying that because I want it to be so (which I totally do, I love their rel… moreationship in this game!), but it makes too much sense to be otherwise. It would be shitty of Telltale to put in a choice like if it didn't mean something big, and I believe Telltale aren't those kinds of people. It's a 1 in 4 choice that you don't have to pick, but it's there for those that do. I feel I have to be very clear on that fact too, because people want to invade that space for those that do want by saying "it's not in a gay way". I'm not saying you HAVE to see their relationship like that, or maybe it's just not to your taste. I won't hate you for disliking a ship, I have ships I dislike, straight and same-sex, but I don't go around sending hate to those that enjoy it, because that'd be shitty. When you're presented with 3 other options, pick one that suits you. We are the protagonist just as mu… [view original content]
All I know is I never heard of anyone, much less someone like Bruce wayne, saying ''you broke my heart'' in a platonic way unless they were joking... and I think it's clear that in this context he wasn't.
What OP described could easily have been conveyed by '' I believed in you John'' '' I had faith in your John'' '' I did need you John'' ( since it was specifically what it was about ), but Bruce had to say ''You broke my heart'' first... which is unnecessary unless Telltale wanted to add a romantic connotation to Bruce's answer, which I believe they did.
It was most definitely romantic, it has to be, and I'm not just saying that because I want it to be so (which I totally do, I love their rel… moreationship in this game!), but it makes too much sense to be otherwise. It would be shitty of Telltale to put in a choice like if it didn't mean something big, and I believe Telltale aren't those kinds of people. It's a 1 in 4 choice that you don't have to pick, but it's there for those that do. I feel I have to be very clear on that fact too, because people want to invade that space for those that do want by saying "it's not in a gay way". I'm not saying you HAVE to see their relationship like that, or maybe it's just not to your taste. I won't hate you for disliking a ship, I have ships I dislike, straight and same-sex, but I don't go around sending hate to those that enjoy it, because that'd be shitty. When you're presented with 3 other options, pick one that suits you. We are the protagonist just as mu… [view original content]
Exactly! The option is there to be chosen, or ignored. It's not canon to your story if you never pick it. It's like when there's an option to flirt with Catwomen, I won't do it, because I choose not to. But the choice is, and will continue to be there, because someone else will choose it. We all choose a different path when playing these games. Choices don't hold much value unless you pick them, so if it's not chosen, it doesn't get said. If you don't like the sound of "you broke my heart, John", then you ignore it, like I ignored Catwoman's advances. She's not a love interest in my story, and John doesn't need to be part of yours, but let us have this one thing that was put in for the people that wanted it, rather than barging down the door in an attempt to talk your way around the obvious just to suit your liking. This shouldn't even be a conversation.
Totally this! As you say.. you have four choices to choose from. If you didn't want to choose say 'your broke my heart' option then thats cool! Thats why there are 3 other choices to pick from. I also didn't pick choices that showed I had an interest in Catwoman.. because I didn't want an interest in Catwoman. Loads of people did, thats cool! So there shouldn't be an issue for those that chose (like me) a interest in John instead.
Exactly! The option is there to be chosen, or ignored. It's not canon to your story if you never pick it. It's like when there's an option t… moreo flirt with Catwomen, I won't do it, because I choose not to. But the choice is, and will continue to be there, because someone else will choose it. We all choose a different path when playing these games. Choices don't hold much value unless you pick them, so if it's not chosen, it doesn't get said. If you don't like the sound of "you broke my heart, John", then you ignore it, like I ignored Catwoman's advances. She's not a love interest in my story, and John doesn't need to be part of yours, but let us have this one thing that was put in for the people that wanted it, rather than barging down the door in an attempt to talk your way around the obvious just to suit your liking. This shouldn't even be a conversation.
It's a problem, but I really don't understand why, other than a lot of men having trouble with the idea of a non-straight man. I've seen plenty of people show interest in Selina, and while she isn't for me (though I do have reasons why I'm not her biggest fan let's say), I know people do. She is a sexy woman, I won't deny that, but if I had to choose another woman for Bruce, I'd pick Avesta. Selina is obviously very popular though as a plausible love interest, and it is one of the few things that Telltale did that I didn't like, in that it kept trying to get me with her, even though I wasn't interested. I was nice to her sometimes, as an ally, and somewhat friend, but nothing more. I'm still salty in how she used Harvey in season 1. ^^;
With John, it doesn't really do that, not in the way it does with Selina at least. I actually wish there were more opportunities, but I was surprised we even got this, so I'm pretty happy. But that's why it makes me mad when people try to strip the meaning away from that confession, by not letting us have it, even though it's a choice they never picked. Talk about no fun... They wouldn't like it if I tried that shit with Selina, saying she was "just a friend" or "like a sister." You can't have it one way and not the other. It's both, or none.
I partly don't see Selina or Avesta as a love interest as I am a straight female (well mostly straight ) so for me I would want John as an interest over the other ladies... although I like Harley.
It's a problem, but I really don't understand why, other than a lot of men having trouble with the idea of a non-straight man. I've seen ple… morenty of people show interest in Selina, and while she isn't for me (though I do have reasons why I'm not her biggest fan let's say), I know people do. She is a sexy woman, I won't deny that, but if I had to choose another woman for Bruce, I'd pick Avesta. Selina is obviously very popular though as a plausible love interest, and it is one of the few things that Telltale did that I didn't like, in that it kept trying to get me with her, even though I wasn't interested. I was nice to her sometimes, as an ally, and somewhat friend, but nothing more. I'm still salty in how she used Harvey in season 1. ^^;
With John, it doesn't really do that, not in the way it does with Selina at least. I actually wish there were more opportunities, but I was surprised we even got this, so I'm pretty happy. But that's why it… [view original content]
It was most definitely romantic, it has to be, and I'm not just saying that because I want it to be so (which I totally do, I love their rel… moreationship in this game!), but it makes too much sense to be otherwise. It would be shitty of Telltale to put in a choice like if it didn't mean something big, and I believe Telltale aren't those kinds of people. It's a 1 in 4 choice that you don't have to pick, but it's there for those that do. I feel I have to be very clear on that fact too, because people want to invade that space for those that do want by saying "it's not in a gay way". I'm not saying you HAVE to see their relationship like that, or maybe it's just not to your taste. I won't hate you for disliking a ship, I have ships I dislike, straight and same-sex, but I don't go around sending hate to those that enjoy it, because that'd be shitty. When you're presented with 3 other options, pick one that suits you. We are the protagonist just as mu… [view original content]
I wouldn’t say romantic, it’s more complicated than that. I’ve got nothin against a non-straight protagonist, but Bruce is canonly hetero, because he’s never shown interest in men, no matter whatever hints between him and John people might see. I think that, in case that option was picked, Bruce saw in John someone who could see the darkness in him, someone who made him delve deeper within himself, someone who encouraged him to pursue the light by making someone else pursue the light. However, all Bruce’s teachings and warnings went unheeded by John, on the contrary, they pushed him to the darkness. That’s what, in my opinion, broke Bruce’s heart. Seeing that he could turn someone who sought his guidance into a monster.
Comments
I don't want to be mean but did you bother to read what I said? Please points one sentence where I said I ship them. I didn't even talk about what Bruce felt.
I say only that their relation always has been ambiguous as it has been oftenly made in comics.
Yes, it actually was. Unfortunately, there are many relationships where manipulation, abuse, and murder takes place. Those are unhealthy relationships, such as the one between the Joker and Harley. I already watched the video that you linked, and I can still use the celebrity worship syndrome as an example, considering that we're talking about Bruce and John.
You were being sarcastic (i.e. "passive-aggressive much?"). It's the use of irony to mock or convey contempt, and it was completely uncalled for in what could otherwise be a good discussion. You're accusing me of ignoring facts, and being hypocritical, since you're now stating your opinions as facts. Either way, I can't have a reasonable conversation with you.
I agree with you completely. The moderators should just close these discussions.
I mentionned the video for your take about the Harley/Joker relationship in general, not about Telltale. Your take on the syndrom could work only in Telltale Universe.
Except if I have a problem of translation (which I can have), are you going to tell me that "reingurgigate" is a positive word and doesn't have any connotation? That's what I meant by passive aggressive.
And yes you're avoiding my examples. Ones doesn't use reason when one avoid what the other says. A pity because I have been quite receiptful to your arguments.
"I agree with you completely. The moderators should just close these discussions."
Well if you don't like those, you can still avoid it instead of removing a topic where people can discuss about it.. It wasn't even about shipping this far until gamingdevil talked about it.
The title of this topic is "Did Bruce "love" John? About the "You broke my heart John" option"...
This is definitely a romance topic lol or at least very suggestive of something being there.
Well quoting from the main topic:
"Thinking that this is romantic love is just misinterpreting things in my opinion."
Don't stop yourself to the title and actually read what he means.
Celebrity worship syndrome can be applied to characters in other universes, excluding any that were created by Telltale Games.
"Regurgitation" can have an either positive, neutral, or negative connotation to it.
Discussions such as these typically cause more problems than they solved. It's only when the members who are commenting in the discussion can remain civil that they shouldn't be closed. However, the moderators do have the ultimate authority, but I can just see where this is going.
Yeah but there are also people above saying they interpreted it as romantic after that, so I'd say it's a pretty core part of this discussion.
Well seeing the syndrom is described as "an obsessive addictive disorder in which a person becomes overly involved with the details of a celebrity's personal and professional life" and that the Joker doesn't (want to) know who Batman is it's hard to apply this syndrom to others Jokers except for the Telltale one.
"Regurgitation" can have an either positive, neutral, or negative connotation to it.
Ok, I guess you had neutral then.
Now I find it just sad. Telltale did a fantastic job writing Bruce and John's relationship in this game a relationship which is central to their game. This is ambiguous enough for each interpretation to be taken seriously be it a romantic or a platonic one. When we discuss about Bruce and John's relationship we can discuss about :
and so on and so on .
Even if I strongly believe John is in fact not in love with Harley in this version at all ( from every proposition I have made it's the one I have the most confidence in ), I'd be willing to read someone who think differently. Those discussions are interesting in my opinion, and we can go as far as learning something new. Maybe we are not the ones taking the ''ship'' too seriously, maybe you are the one not taking enough time to consider an alternative perspective.
I never saw Bruce say he was straight, or ''make it clear'' in any other way. Also if you think that celebrities public image is in any way reliable to make a conclusion on their sexuality then maybe you should reconsider. It's not reliable in real life, it's not reliable for Bruce Wayne, the general opinion people have of you and me ( who are not celebrities, I assume ) is not necessarily reliable and yet it still is better than one on the guy who manages to hide that he is Batman from the general public. Here is another interesting topic we can discuss. Mediaplay and everyone's perception of Bruce's every action is afterall a topic of the game.
As for putting all the thread that are related to romance together, I guess that would be against everything the moderators seem to be aiming for ( specific topics ). I do not care personnaly, as I think confronting and comparing ships can be interesting, but I also believe that some people will be annoyed by the mess.
@Piggs
I understand that, and I also want to make it clear that I never said that your interpretation was wrong, I was merely stating that I can relate to John Doe's pain.
In your previous post you were describing Joker and Batman's relationship as more symbolic than substantial and I want to point out that the trope of many literature themes in the arts today and in classic times is what is described as "romantic friendships"
Even on this day and age the historical study of romantic friendships in the arts or in real life is still debated about on its true nature. The taboo in old times may have driven the sexual aspect of such relationships to stay hidden. Yet it can also be misinterpreted when is only about a friendship. Even so, there is a inextricable connection between romantic friendships of the past and desire in same-sex relationships.
In the arts, there are many descriptions of the emotions felt towards two characters in such relationships, that verge on the romantic and sensual. Sometimes, even the forbidden aspect of such unusual relationship is the focal driving point. But the focus is only the intensity of the relationship rather than the sexuality. There is also a disbelief and sometimes even ridiculousness in the way this relationships work that can be very unrealistic. But that is exaclty the thing about fantasies. They work regardless of how absurd they look. The most important aspect of this romantic friendships is how the two characters involved feel towards the other.
"You seem to be saying that John's obsession with Bruce can't under any circumstances be non-romantic, too. Given that the Joker usually has some sort of obsession with Batman in the varying series that they've been in (most of them clearly not romantic), I don't think that's fair to say. Being obsessed with the idea of someone doesn't have to be romantic, especially considering how unstable John is. John admires Bruce intensely because he's a role model--he's fascinated by the empire Bruce maintains, he loves the brutality and fast action of Batman, etc."
As I said, I was merely stating that I can relate to that stuff. I'm not saying that someone can't just simply admire their idols without having to atcually be in love with them.
But John Doe's emotions and reactions on this game is what I can relate the most. He completely felt burned and disappointed by Bruce refusal to believe on him. John is looking for an inspiration to create his own persona. And as you mentioned, he looks up to Bruce as his idol, his muse. And let me tell you this: You can idolize someone from afar and fall in love with them, once you get to meet them in person.
I know what is like to fall in love with someone whom you totally idolized and respected for a long time, only to get used by that person to get an advantage. In my case it was a job situation. It shatters your heart into a millon pieces and you are left with nothing more than regret and anger inside. Mostly towards yourself.
In John's case I can relate to the huge dissapointment once he undestood that someone like Bruce Wayne would never look up to him in the same way he does. And he felt totally betrayed that his idol wouldn't belive on him when in John's mind he is giving everything for Bruce. He foolishly and naively opened his heart and his faith on Bruce, despite Bruce's deceptions. John also lied to Bruce though, but on John's perspective of the situation he is giving everything he has to please his idol. His lies towards Bruce's felt to me as lies you stupidly say to someone you crush too much. You try very hard not to look bad in front of them.
John even went as far as to lie to himself towards Harley. He betrays her for Bruce and kept secrets from her. Sabotages her plans. Even as the Joker he still cared for Bruce more. He didn't reveal Batman's identity to her, and each time Harley is about to kill Bruce, John hesitates.
And this is because, despite all the hate he felt towards this man that ripped his heart in cold blooded murder as he calls it, he can't bare to actually watch Bruce die. And he was going to die horribly like the people at Wayne Enterprises. When you are angry and mad towards someone you love this much you don't really meant to hurt them, you want them to feel the same pain you are feeling. Joker is totally crazy and dangerous though.
As John Doe he was unsure of himself and insecure. He was looking for someone to reassure him, that being Harley or Bruce. The only two people in his life that means a lot to him. I belive he also loved Harley and that he genuinely cared for her well being. Is very clear in his reactions towards her, she means a lot to him. Yet, John himself isn't totally sure about his own feelings when he compared Bruce to her.
When Harley is around, you can see she also tries to seduce him to keep him under her thumb. Maybe for him, he felt she was the only person outside Arkham that seemed to have an interest on him. He himself says she found him during a dark time, and that he felt uneven and out of place in a world that dosen't understands him. Maybe he fell for Harley's unique attention towards him.
During the whole Season John is looking for a light to guide him, someone to love and be loved by. And depending on your playthrough that can be Harley or Bruce.
He says to Bruce that he worshiped him. And you can see is true in every level. He gambled his loyalty in the Pact, his trust towards Harley and his freedom outside Arkham for Bruce. In both endings Joker also deseperately clings towards any assurance of love from Bruce, even a very small one regardless of what that is. You can completely see in the emotion that he is in love. Not the words. The words lie.
"Like you said at the end, you're allowed to have your interpretation, and I can see how being queer could change your interpretation of certain lines. But I don't think that's what the writers were trying to fully communicate."
On this I'm only going to say:
You can look at a sunset and feel the beauty of the colors, the serenity of the clouds and have all kinds of feelings and emotions towards what you are looking at. Your feelings are completely yours and the person standing beside you can feel nothing towards the same things you feel so strongly about. Or feel totally different on the same things you do. None of this invalidates what each person feels towards that sunset. The sunset is just there. What draws you to stop and look at it in the first place, is your own individuality.
Why we love Batman and his world? Each one of us looks at different aspects that relate to us that are unique to our own personalities and individuality. The relationship between Joker and Batman also draws in us different perspectives. So fighting about which one is "correct" is like trying to tell someone that the coulds on a sunset dosen't take familiar forms.
Fascinating view.
Enjoyed reading that.
thank you very much
...
Thank you for writing this, I agree with it wholeheartedly. I'm not exactly good at explaining my words, No offense intended to others, but from what I saw on here, on the side that interprets their relationship as friends/platonic-- are mostly ones that try to discredit other fans, who find their relationship 'romantic' in their own interpretation of it. And it isn't right to do that to others since each of us have a different view on it, you shouldn't be trying to force others to take your side as a fact(?).
Neither of us know the writers vision, or what goes through their head when writing these scenes.
But I do know that Telltale themselves ship this couple, and that's not a bad thing, neither is it for others to interpret it as friendship, or romantic. Its the reason why the other thread got shut down, everyone was arguing and against the idea of Batjoke relationship, when there really was no reason to do that; pretty much due to not wanting to play it if the option was available.
I ship it, but it kinda makes me sad to see people be like this because of the ship-- but is okay if its with like Harley, Selina, or even Avesta. Its not really fair either to attack(?) others who ship Batjokes, or others who interprets their relationship as romantic, not many are attacking those other ships.
I don't know, those are my thoughts from what I read on here, I'm sorry if what I said came off mean or offends anyone.
I really agree with you on this. And i wanted to say something about the whole "batjokes gets so much hate, but every other ship discussion can stay open" thing, so I'm glad you brought it up. Its unfair to the people who do ship John and Bruce. There is nothing at all wrong with the ship, it is very much a realistic possibility, and many of us like to discuss there relationship.
Its super frustrating though when things are trying to be discussed in a civil manor and then a select few of people who would rather ship Bruce with Avesta or Cat women need to express there strong hatred for the ship. Don't get me wrong though, you can totally disagree with a ship, but to express it in a way that comes off as passive aggressive is just unfair. From what I've seen, Batjokes shippers don't go into the Avesta romance thread and start attacking and putting that ship down.
With that said, I do think someone should just open up a Bruce/John Romance (Official thread) and have all the discussion there to avoid any heated discussions elsewhere.
Yeah the fact that one can't even have a conversation regarding the possible romantic development of the relationship between John and Bruce it's kinda annoying. I mean I have nothing against people who would prefer Bruce to be with Selina, even though I'm personally not a fan of this ship, all I'd want is to have the chance to talk freely without receiving hate or people starting WWII.
I probably might do a story discussion one or an official one if no one had did it yet, but you probably won't see it for a bit;;
Really dont know why all the hate? So Bruce and Selina/Avesta are cool cucumbers but through John into tbe picture and everyone looses their minds?
"But I do Telltale themselves ship this couple" Those are the type of words that get you in trouble. Trying to say your view is the canon or something similar kind of seems arrogant even if that's not your intention.
@Dan10 ...Oh boy... I wasn't really saying it to be arrogant. I do apologize if it comes across like that, I mentioned it based off what I've seen from and heard about from Telltale(That one play through video they did), including about John and Bruce's voice actors If you read from Suzy's post from earlier on page 1.
There's really nothing wrong talking about mentioning something I heard from other people mentioning as well, but I don't believe I remember anywhere in my post that I was trying to make my ship view the canon one.
I didn't for me but I'm just to others that's how they'll see it. Saying that the writers ship it is q bit similar to saying it's canon. I don't think your intention was bad but the wording can be misunderstood.have a nice day I suppose ☺
Thank you, but your post sort of surprised me? Because I'm not the only one on here mentioning it, and it came across sort of odd...? Aside from that, I hope you have a great day as well!
What was odd and surprising?
Sorry sometimes I can't think properly
It was most definitely romantic, it has to be, and I'm not just saying that because I want it to be so (which I totally do, I love their relationship in this game!), but it makes too much sense to be otherwise. It would be shitty of Telltale to put in a choice like if it didn't mean something big, and I believe Telltale aren't those kinds of people. It's a 1 in 4 choice that you don't have to pick, but it's there for those that do. I feel I have to be very clear on that fact too, because people want to invade that space for those that do want by saying "it's not in a gay way". I'm not saying you HAVE to see their relationship like that, or maybe it's just not to your taste. I won't hate you for disliking a ship, I have ships I dislike, straight and same-sex, but I don't go around sending hate to those that enjoy it, because that'd be shitty. When you're presented with 3 other options, pick one that suits you. We are the protagonist just as much as Bruce, as we decide what Bruce does. That's the whole point of Telltale games. Javier from The Walking Dead was confirmed bisexual when someone asked if he was, because of a flirting option in-game, and Telltale responded something like "why do you think it's there?"
The same thing applies here.
Telltale even confirmed in an article somewhere, speaking about the coffee date scene, and one of the lines said something like "is it really Harley's affection he's after?" It's very clear that Telltale shipped them, just look at the clues:
"Are you in love... with me?"
"Bruce is strong, and smart, and handsome, like super handsome, it's nuts you guys!"
"WHY WON'T YOU LOVE ME!?"
"John and Bruce, Bruce and John, J and B, B and... you know where I'm going with this!" (yes we do John, please stop lol).
There's loads more.
In episode 5, you can't move for BatJokes in the villain route, we already know this, there are clues that some people will have missed. I did an analysis on the fight scene, going through 9 different scenes, and why I thought they meant something bigger than just a brotherly love. I might have been wrong on some of them, but I am certain (or almost certain) on a good chuck of them. One of the most obvious ones is when they're lying on the ground. It's only for a second or so, but do you know what that symbolizes? Endgame:
Look at the shape of the blood in Endgame. The writers said that's deliberate. Telltale have used several references from other Batman media, such as when Gordon got shot in the legs, it's a reference to Barbara in The Killing Joke.
Here's the rest of the analysis if anyone wants to take a look. bandicoot88.tumblr.com/post/172366324625/my-batjokes-analysisdiscussion
In vigilante route, there are also strong hints. Here's my favourite one. If you say "I can still save him" to Alfred, this happens:
Alfred: You're not...?
Bruce: What Al? ("test me" face)
Alfred: Nothing.
I know for a fact what Alfred was going to say, which was to ask if Bruce was in love with John, because by saying that, Alfred can see that Bruce is being blinded by his feelings, and this is after John caused many casualties in the name of "justice." Alfred then later says "whatever feelings you might have had for John". He's used the word "feelings" when talking about Catwoman too. He didn't use the word "friendship" or whatever when talking about John. And when Bruce looks at the pictures of John on screen, his expression is so lost and pained.
I mean, you COULD look at it in a brotherly way, but the camera angles, the choice of wording, the expression, the shipping hints... it makes absolutely zero sense for it to be that way. Besides, there's plenty of Batman media that suggests or outright says that Bruce has feelings for Joker. Look at the Batman Lego Movie for example. This isn't new.
At the end of the day, ask yourself this: If John was replaced with Selina, what would be your answer?
Wake up people!
I so wanted it to be a relationship
to me, Bruce and John were more than just friends 
and that is what I intended.
All I know is I never heard of anyone, much less someone like Bruce wayne, saying ''you broke my heart'' in a platonic way unless they were joking... and I think it's clear that in this context he wasn't.
What OP described could easily have been conveyed by '' I believed in you John'' '' I had faith in your John'' '' I did need you John'' ( since it was specifically what it was about ), but Bruce had to say ''You broke my heart'' first... which is unnecessary unless Telltale wanted to add a romantic connotation to Bruce's answer, which I believe they did.
Exactly! The option is there to be chosen, or ignored. It's not canon to your story if you never pick it. It's like when there's an option to flirt with Catwomen, I won't do it, because I choose not to. But the choice is, and will continue to be there, because someone else will choose it. We all choose a different path when playing these games. Choices don't hold much value unless you pick them, so if it's not chosen, it doesn't get said. If you don't like the sound of "you broke my heart, John", then you ignore it, like I ignored Catwoman's advances. She's not a love interest in my story, and John doesn't need to be part of yours, but let us have this one thing that was put in for the people that wanted it, rather than barging down the door in an attempt to talk your way around the obvious just to suit your liking. This shouldn't even be a conversation.
Totally this! As you say.. you have four choices to choose from. If you didn't want to choose say 'your broke my heart' option then thats cool! Thats why there are 3 other choices to pick from. I also didn't pick choices that showed I had an interest in Catwoman.. because I didn't want an interest in Catwoman. Loads of people did, thats cool! So there shouldn't be an issue for those that chose (like me) a interest in John instead.
It's a problem, but I really don't understand why, other than a lot of men having trouble with the idea of a non-straight man. I've seen plenty of people show interest in Selina, and while she isn't for me (though I do have reasons why I'm not her biggest fan let's say), I know people do. She is a sexy woman, I won't deny that, but if I had to choose another woman for Bruce, I'd pick Avesta. Selina is obviously very popular though as a plausible love interest, and it is one of the few things that Telltale did that I didn't like, in that it kept trying to get me with her, even though I wasn't interested. I was nice to her sometimes, as an ally, and somewhat friend, but nothing more. I'm still salty in how she used Harvey in season 1. ^^;
With John, it doesn't really do that, not in the way it does with Selina at least. I actually wish there were more opportunities, but I was surprised we even got this, so I'm pretty happy. But that's why it makes me mad when people try to strip the meaning away from that confession, by not letting us have it, even though it's a choice they never picked. Talk about no fun... They wouldn't like it if I tried that shit with Selina, saying she was "just a friend" or "like a sister." You can't have it one way and not the other. It's both, or none.
I partly don't see Selina or Avesta as a love interest as I am a straight female (well mostly straight
) so for me I would want John as an interest over the other ladies... although I like Harley.
I agree!
I wouldn’t say romantic, it’s more complicated than that. I’ve got nothin against a non-straight protagonist, but Bruce is canonly hetero, because he’s never shown interest in men, no matter whatever hints between him and John people might see. I think that, in case that option was picked, Bruce saw in John someone who could see the darkness in him, someone who made him delve deeper within himself, someone who encouraged him to pursue the light by making someone else pursue the light. However, all Bruce’s teachings and warnings went unheeded by John, on the contrary, they pushed him to the darkness. That’s what, in my opinion, broke Bruce’s heart. Seeing that he could turn someone who sought his guidance into a monster.