Lets talk about choices and how to make them matter in a Telltale Game (Fan feedback)
Hi. I wanted to talk about choices and outcomes in Telltale games. Right now there are three types of choices in modern Telltale games. The one where you have to decide between 2 options, there are 5 of these in each episode. The ‘’little choices’’ like give Joker the batarang in Batman: TEW. And the dialogue options, which are the most common. I have a few quetions below.
So I recently finished Detroid: Become Human and was really impressed by the flowcharts in that game. Sometimes there are more then 10 outcomes of a chapter. I think this is really impressive and something Telltale should take note from. An episode contains of 6 or 5 chapters. Should a episode chapter have different outcomes outcomes? And should the next chapter built on the outcomes you had?
Now about the dialogue choices. Most of the time they don’t matter all, just a little sentence thats will be followed by the sentence that will move the plot forward. They are however, a big part of the games from Telltale. In Detroid: Become Human, you don’t have these as much. Should Telltale focus less on these dialogue choices? That way they have more time to make the ‘’real choices’’ matter.
In Detroid: Become Human an (important) character can also die if you fail a QTE. Should this also be featured in Telltale games? Because right now, it just results in a Game Over screen.
In Batman: TEW you have 2 finale episodes, but they are only based one finale choice. Do you like these ‘’different episode style’’ or do you think Telltale should focus on make all the choices matter, and thus making branching paths in episode chapters.
Should Telltale get rid of the only 5 big choices in a episode?
In other words: what is the best way for Telltale to make choices truly matter? What do they have to change, get rid of or keep the same?
Comments
I like this post. You make some good points that I would like to see in The Final Season and in Wolf Among Us Season Two. I don't mean to try and sound like a Moderator or be bossy or anything but are topics like this that address all Telltale Games to be in General Chat? I am sorry if I come off as rude for saying that is not my intention
Cool thread OP, let me expand on this with my thoughts
1.) I would love to have a flowchart in a telltale game. Maybe a flowchart at the end of ep4? Maybe it can include choices from the previous 3 choices!
2.) I think the dialogue choices are there to add more gameplay to the games. Batman: The Enemy Within had some cool endscreens that based off of the dialogue choices, and these will probably be in TFS.
3.) This was already done with Conrad in season 3, I'd rather it not happen more than once per game.
4.) I think every Episode 5 for telltale going forward should be like TEW. The two branches were great, it felt like Episode 6 of Game of Thrones done better.
5.) No, but I think it would be cool to have a screen of "micro choices" at the end of each episode.
How about actually have the character act, react, and/or even just emote differently depending on your behavior and actions in the relation to them and/or the bigger picture?
Sure, we get a Kenny, Sarah, and I guess Kate every blue moon that react to you differently in any degree of major & important or minor but noticeable ways across separate episodes. But then, we get cases like Jane, Gabe, and David, who are given quite a bit of prominence/presence in the story and are nearly as opinionated as the redneck himself, but seldom actually act according to your actions with/against them, much less like they should.
Just an FYI, I haven't played Detroid: Become Human. But I do love looking at choice flowcharts
I'd say there needs to be a limit on the number of outcomes that can happen per episode, I wouldn't go with anything more than six. Keep in mind that some of these outcomes also need to transition into the next episode which requires more work. I'd rather have a few quality outcomes rather than a quantity of smaller ones that reduce the effect of said choice mattering. Of course, I'm talking about larger outcomes here, for smaller ones I'm pretty sure you could get significantly more from them.
The bigger dialogue choices should have far more of an impact than what Telltale is currently producing. Not every choice should be worked under a microscope, these smaller choices gave a small sense of 'control' for the character you were playing, in Season 1 it was fantastic because you had many hubs of these options where you could choose to talk to certain people. This should be a focus for Telltale in the Final Season. Ignoring this as an excuse to focus on the real choices isn't really a good one, seeing as how Season 1 did that pretty amazingly, although they have been given a strict development time for the final season (not that I approve), I suppose in this circumstance I'd like the bigger choices to take higher priority, but that's not saying much.
Well, technically Season 1 already had this with Ben, where you could refuse to shoot the walker, whether you think he's important is up to you. Personally, it's a neat little implementation. So I'd be up for more of them. People here kinda don't like what happens when a character turns determinant because they get treated so horribly afterwards (ft. Nick and Sarah), but you can argue this is the last season so meh?
Well, this is something I wanted after Season 2 happened. I wanted ANF to have multiple branching paths depending on where you went with those endings. I would have happily accepted reduced playtime for this to be the case. Telltale should certainly focus on making all of the major choices mattering, it is their final season after all. If episodic branching paths is a thing in the Final Season, I'm curious to see how they'd handle it, but I personally doubt they'd go for it, probably at the very end, but nothing before.
5.Should Telltale get rid of the only 5 big choices in a episode?
No. I think this is a great tradition in TTG and shouldn't be removed/changed.
The General Chat doesn't contain that much Telltale stuff. Also the Walking Dead Chat is very active cause of the Final season News. I thought it was best to put the thread here, considering most of the Telltale fans are also Walking Dead fans. And the Walking Dead is the only game from Telltale that is going to release this year. I hope I answered your question
That makes perfect sense. You make very good points. I don't want to sound like a moderator by telling you where you can and can't post discussions (No offense to any of you Moderators) I am sorry for what I said and I hope I didn't offend you
1: I ment chapter as in episode chapter. Not the episode itself . I personal think a chapter should have different outcomes based one more then just one choice. Like Detroid: Become Human. I mean look at this choice/outcome tree.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/lrrp62L
I kinda agree with you. Its just that most of the time it doesn't matter which dialogue option you choose. It doesn't matter if you play jerk Lee, Clementine still loves you. And Bigby always is the lone wolf.
I mean failing a qte as in not having a choice like help or refuse, but just cause your not fast enough to press the button. To give you an example: Marlon is in a fight with a zombie and you have to save him. But you fail the qte. Should Marlon now be dead for the rest of the story or should it just result in a game over screen?
I personally like episode branching more then 2 whole different episode based on only 1 decision. For example: Clementine doesn't make sure a building is secure so a zombie attacks it. Which results for her to leave the building. Some players secure the building so they have a different story then others. That way you can create different paths without creating whole different episodes.
5: I agree.
In Batman they had the perfect opportunity to make your relationship with Joker result in one of the two different ending episodes. No idea why they opted for a binary choice where the ending depends on one choice in Ep4. They could’ve easily implemented a relationship/point-based system like they did in S1 but with Joker instead which would give you one of the endings: vigilante or villain. They should try to make the long-term relationship with characters matter.
But do you think a chapter episode should have different outcomes. And should build the next episode chapter build on your outcome?
But most of the time they don't matter as I said to the other guy. Even if you play as Jerk Lee, Clementine still loves you.
Conrad was a good start. I just hope they continue with this but next time making the character more important to the story.
I personal think its better to have for example: 6 episode chapter outcomes that build on your previous outcomes based one more then just one choice, then 2 whole different episode. Of course the last one is beter but it also taken more time to make. I don't want a game where the 3 episodes are almost the same and then the last episodes is totally different based on one decision you made in episode 3. Then I rather have episode branching the whole season.
I agree.
Exactly
Why are people saying “Detroid”? It’s Detroit Become Human
I totally agree.
Okay I have 2 new questions: Should an episode chapter have more then just two outcomes? And should an outcome be based one more then just one choice?
I agree.
I kinda agree. Dialogue options are for shaping the personality of the character. But the probleem is that most of the time they don’t matter. As is already said: You can play jerk Lee all the time and Clementine still loves you at the end of the game.
But what about supporting characters? For example: Marlon is in a fight with a zombie and you have to save him by pressing the Q button. But you fail the QTE. Should he be dead for the rest of the season or should it just result in a game over screen?
I agree. An outcome should be based on more then just one decision. I rather have a lot of chapter outcomes in all 4 episodes than only 2 different finale episodes only based on 1 choice.
I agree
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A bit too ambitious. If Telltale already struggles to give whole seasons more than 2 outcomes and ably following up on them, we can't really expect them to pull of something of Detroit's magnitude. Maybe they could start by doing something like this episode-wide. Each episode has a couple of outcomes which are properly given consequence in the latter episodes.
I also think it wouldn't be that bad an idea to showcase an episode flowchart by the end of the episode. Telltale just hasn't had much to show off. Maybe the most recent games would've had some interesting parts here and there to look at, but Telltale still isn't at a point where an episode flowchart would be that impressive (especially considering the episodes early in the season, which tend to be the most linear).
I think the dialogue choices have a lot of potential, but Telltale doesn't seem to want to go anywhere with them. I think these little choices should be used as a means of characterization of the playable character, and also a means of relationship building with other characters. How? A point system. Something of the likes of what we see in games like Until Dawn, and something Telltale themselves even showcased in Batman's first season (both of these games did nothing with these values, but they still serve to demonstrate what I mean):
Each individual dialogue choice would affect the values of each one of these "Character Traits" and "Relationship Statuses". Now, how would the values themselves affect the narrative? They could determine the playable character's non-determinant delivery. For example, a Clem with a high "Agreeableness" will just show a more kind/sympathetic/charitable approach to situations whilst a Clem with a higher value on "Cold" will have antithetic responses. This could even affect the character's facial expressions when reacting to things. Details. They are important.
The relationship meters are pretty self explanatory. A low relationship with a certain character will result on them responding to you in a more apathetic/distant/disinterested way, whilst a character with a high relationship value will show to be more understanding/reliable/reliant on you. This was kinda done in Detroit, though the relationships only mattered in key points of the story rather than throughout. It should be all about the character's delivery to your character.
Another way to have a dialogue system that's tailored by your choices would be to add a tendency system to it. If your Clementine tends to frequently pick the more cold and pragmatic responses, as you continue to progress through the story, more and more similarly cold and pragmatic responses keep being presented to the player, over the other options. Of course, this should be made in a way that the player never gets stuck in only one type of delivery. There should always be dialogue choices that would serve as a "way out" of whatever the character's preferred delivery is. A change in the character's tendency however would require the player to be consistent on what they pick. The character should not be able to change personality with the snap of a finger. This would make the whole role-playing experience a lot more consistent. It always bugged me how you could in one second be vouching for staying at Howe's, yet on the dialogue prompt immediately after you could pick the other extreme and be against it. It's a way to add consistency to the character you're playing as.
Finally, these features don't necessarily need to have a whole user interface dedicated to them. These values could be hidden from the player until the end of the episode/season, or even not be shown at all. Having everything look too technical might take away from the immersion these features are supposed to add to the experience.
I'm not really big on QTEs determining major story points like whether a character dies or not. These games should be about making decisions. Deciding should be the challenge, not whether you press the buttons fast enough.
Echoing what other people have said in this thread and not wanting to take away from what they did at the end of Batman S2, having two largely different outcomes is always great, but please don't have it all rely on one single decision. You make thousands of decisions in these games, to have only one truly matter feels shallow and cheap. Telltale can do much better than what they did, and I want to reinforce that while what they did with Batman's latest episode was commendable for sure, it was not the holy grail of choices mattering as some people make it out to be.
Sure. Give emphasis to what's relevant only. Don't bother with putting the stats to menial decisions on a pedestal (as it has been done in past episodes). Don't get me wrong though, I'd like to have the stats to everything. Every single choice. But I'd prefer if they'd just put them in a separate, optional UI instead. Let the major choices look major.
I think your smaller choices and dialogue choices should build you a sort of player profile, like batman did. And the major choices are made by Clem acting in the way you made her personality through your smaller choices.
I like in TEW how not only are there two different finales, but also every character has multiple different ending based on the choices you make in that episode and in the rest of the season. As far as choices mattering, they nailed it in almost every respect in that game. Almost every choice mattered as much as they made it seem like it would matter. It never pulled an ANF where 'stay or leave' turns into 'who's mad at you for about 5 minutes?'