One thing that interests me about all of this talk about difficulty and length is peoples perception of scope.
When all six cases are out, released as a full "complete season" experience, the scope will feel very different than it does now. I mean, in a way, "defeat Brady Culture" will become the first big puzzle goal in a far bigger game, versus now where that alone is the story of a game on its own. I think peoples feelings about the scope of what they need to accomplish will sort of move up, or expand a level just because the structure of what they're playing (a 12-18 hour game) will be different, even if puzzle to puzzle it's the same string of events that was once distributed as an episodic experience. I think at that point peoples perception of what is and isn't hard and what is and isn't short or long will be at least a bit different than it is now.
I don't think that's any better or worse a game design structure than presenting each as a separate episode (I personally prefer playing them one at a time because I like the more short-form storytelling and the rapid clip the game moves at from story beat to story beat and act to act, and I like actually finishing my games - if it was a full length single game I'd probably put the game down half way through "for a week or so, for a rest" and never pick it up again like I do with almost every game I buy), but for people who want things to feel like their challenges are more long form and intricate, they may appreciate the change in scope and perception that occurs when all six episodes each become essentially large puzzles in a bigger singular story experience.
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Bonus side note: Actually, I suspect that at least some peoples perception of scope, length, and difficulty will probably start shifting a bit even as early as when they get to play episode 2 or 3. Not necessarily because one or both of those two games on its own will be a head-scratching arm-twisting brain-deflating puzzle assault, but just because the relationship each individual episode and its challenges has with the whole season will come into focus a little more.
It only just clicked for me a couple days ago the implications of the next chapter of the game coming out in just over a month, and then four more of them following one after another right after that. Even working here in the office, and occasionally on the games themselves, it's hard to shake my ingrained perception that Culture Shock is the game and the next episode is the sequel. That's really not what's going on. They're not all "the same game split into chunks" either. It's somewhere in-between, and it took a long time to all click properly in my head.
But anyway, as I said earlier, even if it doesn't click for some people in the next six months, they'll be right at home with the season set, where essentially the first objective in a very long game is a 2-4 hour long puzzle about how to figure out where Brady Culture's hideout is.
Good perspective Jake. That is how I started to look at the game about a day after finishing it. It finally sunk in that this was just like the beginning of a larger adventure game. It hasn't fully sunken in yet, but like you said, it should when the full season is finally out..
From reading bits and pieces of the thread, I agree with Nimble on how the difficulty level in games can frustrated the gamer as to stop playing.
I also agree on what Jake said abou the scope. I for one take it as an episode and it was satisfying. Knowing that the game is going to be around 2-3 hours long, I basically took my time playing the game, trying to savor the funfactor and it seems to satifsy me quite well.
After preordering the series and finishing episode 1, I thought that if Telltale ever expands its team, they should try to make a "movie length" game, release it after the last episode of a season and charge it with a separate price. I like how episode 1 of Sam and Max plays both in puzzles despite being easier than previous adventure games(more on that later,) and storyline, but it would be fun once in a while to play an "epic" adventure based on the dog and rabbit duo. I like the format of the game being episodic, so I am not really complaining about that. This might only be me, but I like movies that relates to a television/anime series if done right. My two favorite anime movies are Cowboy Bebop and Fullmetal Alchemist. I like how they fit into their tv series storyline loosly with subtle references within the movie(normally, an anime movie is a stand alone storyline that doesn't effect the character developement or the actual storyline and hence the stoyline can be weak.)
I kinda want to see Sam and Max on a case that effects them in a great way. Sort of like Hit the Roa, but more in a dire movie-like situation.
I digress. The puzzles in episode 1, overall, are easy in Culture shock, but it doesn't mean I am disappointed. It is the opposite. I am 23 and have played adventure games ever since I can remember. I remember being stuck on a puzzle for weeks, if not months or even years on something like not knowing to check behind the church's door in chapter 1 to get the key(if I recall correctly, if you don't check the door during this chapter, the key is no longer obtainable,) to open the beer to use in chapter 3 Freddy Pharkis.
As for internet hints, sure they are helpful, but the bad things about them is that some players do not want to resort to them, which is why some sites made programs that would give you clues in what to do next. But those can be frustrating since the clues they gave are ones you may already know. Furthermore, hint faqs are addictive where as once you use it to solve one problem, you may be using the entire faqs afterwards to get through the game, which eliminates the fun factor. It happened to me on the fourth Monkey Island game. Lastly, you may be lookin for a way to solve one puzzle in the faq and accidently read a solution to a puzzle you haven't encountered.
Sam and Max culture shock played quite fluidly in terms of puzzle solving. I was stuck on some areas, epecially the later ones, but it wasn't too long where I wanted to gave up. I was stuck on the last puzzle even though I knew what the situation would be where Sam would trick the villian in having the soda poppers attack him, but the way the combination of dialoge threw me off It was fun solving the puzzle w/o the use of guides since guides are huge spoilers and the puzzles were highly logical. I remember passing kq5 w/o hints and how I amaze myself by solving a puzzle through dumb luck; after being frustrated in a puzzle in trying to get the wizard's wand, I decided to leave the computer in a safe place where Garaham wouldn't be killed by the wizard or put into prision by his guards(the library) and talk to my brother, forgetting to pause the game. After 15 minutes, I came back and while still at the same room, trying to see what to do, the wizard appears in a room away, getting into bed. The puzzle may be creativefun, but the time it takes to wait increases the frustation of a gamer. I mean, I wouldn't think someone would actually spend 15 minutes the first time playing the kq5, to wait that long.
There is more I want to say, but I will end my thought here since I didn't get enough sleep from the day before.
I´m playing Broken Sword 4 now at the same time, and that is one game that really requires one to think, and adds some very neat minigames and puzzles. Maybe that game can be a source of inspiration for Telltale, to raise the quality of their games from "really good" to "downright excellent"?
I wouldn't mind a couple of trickier puzzles myself (though I suspect each episode may become a little harder than the last, in the same way the Bone games seem to be (have been?) going)
However, every review I've read for Broken Sword 4 seemed to conclude it was a little too hardcore? And that many of the puzzles a little too obscure? & that this would alienate many people trying to play the game?
While I'm all up for a few brain teasers - I don't want to be stumped by puzzles that are only there to satisfy/challenge the sort of person who can complete the Times cross-word puzzle in under 5 minutes.
Well i find the diffuculty okay. It would just be nice with more puzzle's and funny ways to get items.. Because there are really more than enough talking to different persons in the game.. And another mouse cursor with options to look, take and such as in the original instead of having to cancel item and go back in box to get it.. but yeah its a great game.. But i will always nice Full games more. I dont hope this episodic game type is how the future is gonna be, because it just sucks to be honest.. :P
As to wither the game is great or not, I dont believe many will disagree its a great game. As for the time, it really affects the overall impression of the game, specially for the people who dont know the history behind it.
Are the listening to the comments? They sure do. I have personally contacted them about the issue of buying separate episodes, and whether there is away if we buy all episodes to get a full CD after then, plus the pricing relative to the game length. The fixed it with the pre-order thing.
As for the game length and difficulty, I think if we look at it from their side, the adventture gaming industry has been more dying in the recent years, and for the staff who quit their job to start a new company to work full two years on 1 game, and then it might not boom as expected. They might go out of business soon, so this (although I dont like it) might be the best solution. Thet have brought us back laugh and joy after 13 years! Now, when there are limited scenes in an adventure game, its natural it will be easy. So, at the end, its a WIN WIN Situation for both of us on the long run. As they get more stable they might be releasing longer episodes. Keep in mind they will build on the existing.
Just one guy's thoughts...
but for people who want things to feel like their challenges are more long form and intricate, they may appreciate the change in scope and perception that occurs when all six episodes each become essentially large puzzles in a bigger singular story experience.
I think two basic adventure game mechanics are changed through the episodic approach and that makes the game too easy for some or creates a feeling that the game has not a large enough scope:
First the number of places and thus the number of objects you can collect/interact with at a given time is smaller.
Secondly there is no transition of early game collectibles to the late game. In many great adventure games objects you picked up very early in the game could be of use in the mid or late game.
I really enjoyed Culture Shock and am happy that episodic gaming could be a very viable way to recultivate the adventure genre - but I think those two things could hinder the games from becoming like those of the "good old days". But I figure that is not what you are aiming for (and it is probably not a viable business option) and I respect that.
I'm not sure having episodes coming out regularly is going to change the difficulty level of the game. Does the full 6 episodes being 18-24 hours make the puzzles harder? I doubt it. even if the first puzzle is to find brady cultures hideout.. A series of simple puzzles to get that solution does not help..
As for putting games down halfway through and never picking them up again..that only happens if you are not interested in the story of the game, and don't want to find out what happens next.. I doubt telltale would ever do that since they regard the story aspect of their games very highly. My opinion is they just need to balance out the gameplay of their products a lot more.. Commercial games these days are all game, no story. Telltale is a lot of story not much game.. I think theres a happy medium somewhere in between.
As for putting games down halfway through and never picking them up again..that only happens if you are not interested in the story of the game, and don't want to find out what happens next...
Actually, that's not the case for me. I only buy 2 or so games per year thesedays, and let's see, these are some I've bought in the last couple of years;
Indiana Jones & The Emperor's Tomb. I was enjoying playing it, but came up to a section where there were a lot of jumps over a pit section. As there's no quicksave, everytime I mistimed a jump I had to play 10 or so minutes to get back to the same point, which, after a couple of hours, made me take a break from the game. I never returned to it and eventually uninstalled it.
KOTOR - loved the game, loved the story. Went away on vacation or something, forgot what the sidequests were about, kind lost track of what had gone on. Now a year later I know I'll have to start all over if I ever want to finish it, and I just don't know if I can commit the time to do that.
Beyond Good & Evil: Got so pissed off at the lack of y-axis mouse-invert that I had to stop playing, even though the story was really shaping up.
So, for me it tends to be getting stuck, forgetting the story after a break or sheer frustration of gameplay mechanics that causes me to stop playing - not a lack of interest in the story.
I know. It's tragic. The dumbest thing is they have 'invert mouse' option, but it bloody inverts the x-axis too. AND you can invert-Y in camera mode, but not in movement mode. Gah!
hmm I've wanted to get beyond good and evil for years.. prince of persia: sands of time was one of those games, where the story was great.. I couldnt put it down..wanted to find out where the story was going..finished in a few days.. warrior within though I found appaling..its a pity ubisofts most creative games wern't commercially successful so they resorted to making games that every1 else was doing..such is the video game industry these days..
kotor didn't seem that difficult but it was fun I was going to play kotor II but it got mixed reviews and there are many other games I still need to play. The interesting thing about kotor II is that there is a mod in works to restore all the stuff that was cut from a game that was rushed.
I think, if they jumped in at the deep end with hard puzzles on the first episode, newer gamers might not buy the further episodes. It's a good starting game, and I think through out the episodes Telltale will be able to make them increasingly harder and experiment with a difficulty level that everyone can agree on?
If that makes sense? Which I don't think it does, but oh well.
I haven't played the full version yet, but I got an impression that Episode 1 might be an easy one for me. I like complex puzzles as long as there is a logical solution. In my opinion, storytelling, dialogue and interaction are the most important factors that make some adventure games good. I really don't care whether Telltale folks are going to/are not going to make harder puzzles. As long as storytelling and dialogue are top-notch and "Sam & Maxesque", Im a very happy customer.
Inventory combining is good. I also think more inventory red herrings would help the difficulty level.
One dissapointment with the puzzle gameplay was the making of the helmet to repell the hypnotic rays. I thought I would be going on 3 or 4 seperate puzzle missions to find all of the ingredients, but alas, it was never required.
Still, Culture Shock was a massive improvement on Bone, but we still need more inventory, more inventory, more inventory.
I'm just a subscriber to Old Man Murray's theory for the death of adventure games. If only targeting hard core adventure gamers was enough to make adventure games successful, Lucasarts and Sierra would still be churning out those babies left and right.
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I do expect the episodes to be more difficult in the future, but people should not expect the extremely difficult and complex puzzles of the past--use paper cup with golf ball retriever and make a bungee rope with twine so that you can bungee jump with it to retrieve a piece of tar.
Old Man Murray's theory is based on the fact that a whole lot of adventure games (including King's Quest, which was kinda the paragon of adventure games for a good long while, although I never understood why) has completely illogical puzzles. Shake a tambourine at a snake? Use cheese on the magic machine? Either the people building those adventure games were really struggling with the whole concept, or someone had decided that the most fun paradigm was 'trial and error'.
The twine + golf ball retriever + paper cup puzzle was logical. There were more than enough clues in the game to suggest that combination. A game can be entirely wacky, and filled with really wacky objects and people, and still be internally logical. Sam & Max wasn't one of the reasons why the adventure game genre died.
I see no reason why Telltale can't build an audience up to that level of puzzle solving. Sure, make it easy at first so people get the hang of the whole thing. Make the first few item-combo puzzles easy. Put the audience in the right mental state to start thinking that way.
I really liked the talking puzzle early in the game where Sam & Max played good-cop bad-cop with the rat. I was hoping there'd be a lot more like that.
They should also put Max back into the inventory so we can use him on things.
I also would have liked some more wacky other characters in there. The swearing psychic, the boring moleman storyteller, evelyn morison, the jilted mad scientist, the cute kitten with the adsurdly deep voice - I missed those guys. The Soda Poppers and Brady Culture were not quite wacky enough.
However, the game was excellent. The dialogue was spot on. And I _loved_ how much they used the same locations over and over. I'm a huge fan of those games where you go back to the same spots over and over again to find more and more puzzles as the game progresses. It's like some small but intricate knot, or an unfolding puzzle-box or something. I loved it.
And the artwork. Fantastic. I loved wandering around in that world. It was awesome.
All in all, I am most pleased and excited for the next episode.
I'm also not clear on exactly how the episodic thing works. Does each episode sit on top of the previous one? As in, can they add more locations because we've already got the data for the episode 1 locations on our comps? Or will they each be standalone modules?
Does each episode sit on top of the previous one? As in, can they add more locations because we've already got the data for the episode 1 locations on our comps?
But if you do have all six episodes installed on your computer at the same time, they merge together to form a evil A.I. bent on world domination (also providing a rather natty screen-saver)
Can I add a bit of fuel to the fire here and quote dave grossman from the adventure game developer chat in response to numbles question about daves comments on the future of adventure gaming being less geeky..
DG
Hah! Yes, I did say that. Well, I suppose what I mean is that a lot of traditional adventure games have focused on the puzzles, and on making them fairly difficult to untangle. This is very, very satisfying to a small segment of the population who really enjoy having to think hard about a puzzle, but tends to turn off the majority (no, really, ask around). While I think the puzzles are necessary for the form, I also think that for adventure games to gain the wider adoption they need to succeed, they need to focus a bit more on things like story and character and a bit less on the brain teasers (= "geeky"). And once they HAVE a broader audience, there will be room for some games to have brain-busting puzzles and some not to, which will make everybody happy.
Sometimes I think about crossword puzzles, and I wonder if they would have become as wildly popular as they were in the early twentieth century had most of them been as difficult as the Saturday New York Times puzzle is now. I think probably not.
To be fair, the difficulty of a puzzle is unimportant. I can play through the original sam and max game without getting stuck once, because obviously i've completed it so many times.
The only things that matter to me, are the experience - and, mostly importantly of all, wacky, wacky humour.
Once you've solved a difficult puzzle, it's never going to be difficult again. Why does the difficulty matter?
Telltale have filled this game with a ridiculous amount of replayability for an adventure game, loads of little hidden easter eggs. I barely found any, and although I did get stuck once or twice, the logic in finding them is mostly pretty zany - much like old-school S&M.
I'm happy with how things are going, and although slightly concerned that apparently the second one is shorter, i'm looking forward to it being funnier. Bring it on
To be fair, the difficulty of a puzzle is unimportant. I can play through the original sam and max game without getting stuck once, because obviously i've completed it so many times.
The only things that matter to me, are the experience - and, mostly importantly of all, wacky, wacky humour.
Once you've solved a difficult puzzle, it's never going to be difficult again. Why does the difficulty matter?
Telltale have filled this game with a ridiculous amount of replayability for an adventure game, loads of little hidden easter eggs. I barely found any, and although I did get stuck once or twice, the logic in finding them is mostly pretty zany - much like old-school S&M.
I'm happy with how things are going, and although slightly concerned that apparently the second one is shorter, i'm looking forward to it being funnier. Bring it on
But you said it yourself, once you have solved a puzzle, it's never going to be difficult again. So in truth there is NO replayability, especially for those that haven't read this very forum and found out the easter eggs are there. Easter eggs and secrets are the sort of things are the things that NORMALLY appeal to the hardcore gamers. Though many of which are simply found by doing things in a slightly illogical order.
And lets be honest, who is going to play through the same puzzles (which by now they already know the solution to) god knows how many times to hear maybe 10-20 extra lines of dialogue?
ONLY the Hardcore gamers and die hard fans, yet the easier gameplay is geared to encourage more casual gamers.
Seems like pretty fuzzy logic to me.
But you said it yourself, once you have solved a puzzle, it's never going to be difficult again. So in truth there is NO replayability, especially for those that haven't read this very forum and found out the easter eggs are there. Easter eggs and secrets are the sort of things are the things that NORMALLY appeal to the hardcore gamers. Though many of which are simply found by doing things in a slightly illogical order.
And lets be honest, who is going to play through the same puzzles (which by now they already know the solution to) god knows how many times to hear maybe 10-20 extra lines of dialogue?
ONLY the Hardcore gamers and die hard fans, yet the easier gameplay is geared to encourage more casual gamers.
Seems like pretty fuzzy logic to me.
I think you're correct in your assessment of how easter eggs appeal to the hardcore and easier puzzles appeal to casual gamers, but I don't think it's necessarily fuzzy logic to have both. It actually helps prove that you don't have to sacrifice one for the other.
I would say it's analogous to a Pixar movie (or some of the better Disney movies in the past) or even the movie Shrek, where there are separate elements that appeal to kids and adults.
I remember in the ninties, everyone said it was going to be this huge thing that would change the way everything worked in the 21st Centruy... And then it justy kinda vanished? - Which, thinking about it, is surprisingly similar to my sex life... whatever did happen to that?
I remember in the ninties, everyone said it was going to be this huge thing that would change the way everything worked in the 21st Centruy... And then it justy kinda vanished? - Which, thinking about it, is surprisingly similar to my sex life... whatever did happen to that?
Unfortunately, the Y2K bug is responsible for both disappearances.
A great comment from one of the Ep2 reviews that I found chimed perfectly with my view on the genre:
"But if these monthly Sam and Max installments can't be any larger, they should at least take some effort to figure out. The jokes will be all the funnier if I have to work for them."
Whereas the puzzles of the first episode presented little challenge, those in the second episode are virtually challenge free. There's nothing even approaching the complexity of the trap you had to lay for Whizzer in the last game. This time around your brain will barely break a sweat trying to figure out how to hide a cow, where to get a picture of an alien, or how to bake a cake. The few multi-part puzzles are generally solved during the course of the story, so you won't need to backtrack if you come up against a roadblock; just go explore the rest of the areas and finish your other tasks and you're sure to find a way around your current obstacles.
Again, as with the first game, we're not asking the designers to include complicated, 7th Guest-style logic puzzles here. We're merely suggesting that the game would be more rewarding if it didn't feel like it played itself. To be fair, you'll have to make a few intuitive leaps here and there to accomplish your objectives but, for the most part, the puzzles in Situation: Comedy require little more than a bit of patience and some old fashioned trial-and-error.
Higher difficulty would be fantastic... so long as it were done like in Monkey Island. Rather than it being harder, just chuck in more puzzles or add some depth to puzzles in normal difficulty.
The advantage of this is it would give the games an extra day or so of replayability.
Yeah the puzzles are too easy, I've just completed Episode 2 in just a few hours, I was not stuck on any puzzle at any point I just cruised through the whole game enjoying the ride.
I feel the game would be better with some more thinking involved, I realise that I'm an oldschool gamer and have enjoyed games such as the original monkey island series, the original sam and max, Day of the tentacle (especially) and other such classics as The Grim Fandango. And that such experience is great for gearing my brain towards solving these puzzles, but I can't imagine anyone having any kind of difficulty solving any of these puzzle as long as they actually think about it for a minute or two.
The problem with ep2 was that it was like a slightly interactive movie, I could see how to solve the puzzles way ahead of time, even before it was obvious what needed doing
*spoilers below*
For example it was obvious even through only 30 seconds of chat with the woman who runs the tabloid about aliens, and then running into the guy that can change colour, that the puzzle was to turn him green. The game was then about walking backwards and forwards between these 2 areas, waiting while areas load etc.
*end spoilers*
When you can reasonably guess ahead of time whats going to happen it becomes a bit boring/tedious walking between areas and loading the areas since all its really leading upto is something you already know.
I think a good starting point in making it harder would be interaction between inventory items, and also having a lot more items to pick up. A good Idea would be to add inventory items that you simply don't need for anything that just throw you off the scent.
Monkey island 3 was great for this you had tons of items to carry around and some of them were very "generic use" type items, nails, glue, cork, hammer, that could be potentially used in a lot of areas which made finding the right answer fairly hard without thinking about it, partly because the amount of combinations of items to add together not to mention also adding to the environment made trial and error tedious and just not worth it because it took too long, you had to THINK about what the best idea to the puzzle was and then try a few things.
Overall I think the new sam and max adventures are really good and Telltale studios have nailed down a lot of the areas which might have potentially been problematic such as recreating cartoon effects in 3D etc, but to make these games truly great and extend their play time significantly, the puzzles need to be harder and the inventory needs to be bigger and more complex.
Also forget about multiple difficulty levels, but if the puzzles become quite hard then add in a hints system, other puzzle adventures have done this just like the grim fandago and monkey islands 4 (both 3d) the characters head would turn to look directly at anything important in the imediate area. Max could also give hints after being stuck for longer than 20 minutes or something like that (these should also be toggle option for old school gamers who want no additional help)
There actually is a pretty subtle hint system--just talk to Max when you're stuck. Obviously it doesn't help everyone, as the many posts in the Hints forum reveal.
I don't really mind that the game is so easy to complete (and so short). Sure, I'd prefer harder puzzles & maybe a longer game, but I don't have the free time I had when I was younger 10-15 years ago, playing all the LucasArts classics, so it kinda works out in the end.
The only problem I have with the games is that the whole thing is too linear. Anyway, I don't regret buying the game. I'd buy it either way as part of the collection (definitely opting for the CD-ROM version when it's out).
And here's an idea. If TellTale wants to get even more people looking their way, they could make a GTA-Clone out of Sam & Max. Huh? What do you guys think? Hello? Is this thing on? *tumbleweed*
The only problem I have with the games is that the whole thing is too linear. Anyway, I don't regret buying the game. I'd buy it either way as part of the collection (definitely opting for the CD-ROM version when it's out).
And here's an idea. If TellTale wants to get even more people looking their way, they could make a GTA-Clone out of Sam & Max. Huh? What do you guys think? Hello? Is this thing on? *tumbleweed*
Yeah, one thing with the episodic format is that while there is some flexibility in solving things (you can knock out 3 soda poppers, fake 3 symptoms, get 3 celebrity features, win over 2 judges in any order you want), there is still a very linear goal to each episode.
The idea of a GTA-clone is intriguing--run around solving cases in a very non-linear way, but it might be beyond the scope of what Telltale can develop as a tiny company.
I guess more realistically, some people would rather have the ability to solve 6 cases at the same time instead of the episodic, 1-at-a-time version you get right now--imagine the scope of a game in which you've knocked out 2 Soda Poppers but are stuck on how to get rid of the 3rd Soda Popper, and since there's so much other things to do, it isn't a matter of trial and error to figure it out--so you go and try to figure out how to win a singing contest in the meantime.
But then you can't really utilize recurring characters as much--you can't have the Soda Poppers be judges in one puzzle while you're trying to knock them out in another, and it's less realistic to have Sybil change her job or Bosco disguise himself within the same game.
And well, I think it being episodic probably makes it more likely that people are willing to give it a try. The $9 cost really makes it almost a no-brainer for people to try and give it a shot, something people probably are less willing to do with even a $35 game.
Anyway, they seem committed to creating a new type of game that can have a story while remaining underneath a 20-40 hour saga. Right now games seem to be divided between the very short and story-less popular games like Bejeweled, Tetris, etc. and the very long and story-full (and costly) games like GTA and Zelda. Telltale seems to be striving to create that new middle ground.
Episode two was too easy. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that by episode 3 we will start to see some improvement in the puzzles. (the rest of the game is great btw)
Seriously? You guys feel that this game is easier than the first?
Even if you didn't have to break a sweat, there still were a few puzzle gems. Especially the last one. Giant spoiler ahead, explaining the final puzzle... beware!
**Ok, so you go into the talk show, and there is no way out. You cannot even move... what to do? How to stop the evil bear?
**You notice the microphone sparking. Ok, so maybe that will be useful, but for what?
**You start talking to the host about the tabloid picture... someone else is involved... she brings out other guests to dispute... hmmm... she moves the mic to them...
**She has a glass of water on her desk... but you cannot drink it.
**You see your banjo. Try singing? Nothing happens... maybe I should sing with a high pitched voice. Doing such breaks the glass. Just like what happened to Specs' glasses in the Idol contest... nice hint!
**Ah, sparking mic and water, now we are getting somewhere. You remember she moved the microphone to the guests as they came in. So you bring out one of the Soda Poppers... but the water doesn't touch the mic in that location. Tricky, TTG, nice touch.
**You remember that the cow caused the mic to be put in the middle of the desk... right where the water is!
**Sparks fly, mission accomplished.
What is nice, is that you still had to use all of these items and props, even if they weren't in your inventory. That puzzle is not as straightforward as any of the puzzles in the first game, and if you analyze it a little, rather than just guess-and-click, you will see it is a pretty good puzzle. In fact, another hint is that you need to use something from each of the 3 facets of your stardom.
Spoilers on the last puzzle again!
You had to have a record contract, tabloid coverage, and a major TV show. The record contract is "used" when you play your banjo to break the glass of water. The tabloid coverage is used to get her to move the microphone. And the major TV show is used to call out the cow so that the microphone is moved to the middle of the table, since a cow cannot sit in the chair.
Now tell me that isn't a clever puzzle. It is logical, and isn't blatantly laid out for you.
Hats off to you TTG! And by hats I mean lampshades.
Unfortunately for me, I find these games a tad too easy. If it wasn't for the fact that I go through all the dialog options and click on every single thing because I want to hear and see everything the writers wrote for the game, I'd probably have finished the game under two hours. Usually I'll figure out a puzzle before I've exhausted my options in a given area so I'll try to not finish the puzzle in order to explore an area further. A good example of this is in the sit com filming section of episode 2. The puzzle is set up so that doing one inventory interaction will progress the show onto the next stage and only one interaction is the correct choice for each stage. Since it's quickly obvious to me what the "correct" interaction is, I try all the other ones (like using the shaving cream on the chicken or something).
Exploring in adventure games is, for me, one of their biggest draws, but because these games are so easy I find that I skip many things because the puzzles get finished so fast. This was a bigger problem in the first game because I wasn't ready for that but I've adjusted my playing style for the second game to try to extend the time it takes me to go through it.
I think a big improvement for this game would be to increase the number of puzzles in a given area. In most 'rooms' there is only one puzzle to solve and/or one inventory item to acquire. It makes traveling through the areas not as interesting as it might be because once you've done something in an area, you don't really need to go back to look around and see if you've missed something. Also, most (if not all?) inventory items have only one use. Perhaps using the same item or thing for multiple puzzles might help.
I realize these suggestions are perhaps beyond the scope of a episodic adventure game but I think if some of them were incorporated the game might feel more "free" or non-linear because there would be a reason to revisit past areas more than twice (once to get the puzzle, and once to solve it after you have the right item).
Comments
One thing that interests me about all of this talk about difficulty and length is peoples perception of scope.
When all six cases are out, released as a full "complete season" experience, the scope will feel very different than it does now. I mean, in a way, "defeat Brady Culture" will become the first big puzzle goal in a far bigger game, versus now where that alone is the story of a game on its own. I think peoples feelings about the scope of what they need to accomplish will sort of move up, or expand a level just because the structure of what they're playing (a 12-18 hour game) will be different, even if puzzle to puzzle it's the same string of events that was once distributed as an episodic experience. I think at that point peoples perception of what is and isn't hard and what is and isn't short or long will be at least a bit different than it is now.
I don't think that's any better or worse a game design structure than presenting each as a separate episode (I personally prefer playing them one at a time because I like the more short-form storytelling and the rapid clip the game moves at from story beat to story beat and act to act, and I like actually finishing my games - if it was a full length single game I'd probably put the game down half way through "for a week or so, for a rest" and never pick it up again like I do with almost every game I buy), but for people who want things to feel like their challenges are more long form and intricate, they may appreciate the change in scope and perception that occurs when all six episodes each become essentially large puzzles in a bigger singular story experience.
...
Bonus side note: Actually, I suspect that at least some peoples perception of scope, length, and difficulty will probably start shifting a bit even as early as when they get to play episode 2 or 3. Not necessarily because one or both of those two games on its own will be a head-scratching arm-twisting brain-deflating puzzle assault, but just because the relationship each individual episode and its challenges has with the whole season will come into focus a little more.
It only just clicked for me a couple days ago the implications of the next chapter of the game coming out in just over a month, and then four more of them following one after another right after that. Even working here in the office, and occasionally on the games themselves, it's hard to shake my ingrained perception that Culture Shock is the game and the next episode is the sequel. That's really not what's going on. They're not all "the same game split into chunks" either. It's somewhere in-between, and it took a long time to all click properly in my head.
But anyway, as I said earlier, even if it doesn't click for some people in the next six months, they'll be right at home with the season set, where essentially the first objective in a very long game is a 2-4 hour long puzzle about how to figure out where Brady Culture's hideout is.
I also agree on what Jake said abou the scope. I for one take it as an episode and it was satisfying. Knowing that the game is going to be around 2-3 hours long, I basically took my time playing the game, trying to savor the funfactor and it seems to satifsy me quite well.
After preordering the series and finishing episode 1, I thought that if Telltale ever expands its team, they should try to make a "movie length" game, release it after the last episode of a season and charge it with a separate price. I like how episode 1 of Sam and Max plays both in puzzles despite being easier than previous adventure games(more on that later,) and storyline, but it would be fun once in a while to play an "epic" adventure based on the dog and rabbit duo. I like the format of the game being episodic, so I am not really complaining about that. This might only be me, but I like movies that relates to a television/anime series if done right. My two favorite anime movies are Cowboy Bebop and Fullmetal Alchemist. I like how they fit into their tv series storyline loosly with subtle references within the movie(normally, an anime movie is a stand alone storyline that doesn't effect the character developement or the actual storyline and hence the stoyline can be weak.)
I kinda want to see Sam and Max on a case that effects them in a great way. Sort of like Hit the Roa, but more in a dire movie-like situation.
I digress. The puzzles in episode 1, overall, are easy in Culture shock, but it doesn't mean I am disappointed. It is the opposite. I am 23 and have played adventure games ever since I can remember. I remember being stuck on a puzzle for weeks, if not months or even years on something like not knowing to check behind the church's door in chapter 1 to get the key(if I recall correctly, if you don't check the door during this chapter, the key is no longer obtainable,) to open the beer to use in chapter 3 Freddy Pharkis.
As for internet hints, sure they are helpful, but the bad things about them is that some players do not want to resort to them, which is why some sites made programs that would give you clues in what to do next. But those can be frustrating since the clues they gave are ones you may already know. Furthermore, hint faqs are addictive where as once you use it to solve one problem, you may be using the entire faqs afterwards to get through the game, which eliminates the fun factor. It happened to me on the fourth Monkey Island game. Lastly, you may be lookin for a way to solve one puzzle in the faq and accidently read a solution to a puzzle you haven't encountered.
Sam and Max culture shock played quite fluidly in terms of puzzle solving. I was stuck on some areas, epecially the later ones, but it wasn't too long where I wanted to gave up. I was stuck on the last puzzle even though I knew what the situation would be where Sam would trick the villian in having the soda poppers attack him, but the way the combination of dialoge threw me off It was fun solving the puzzle w/o the use of guides since guides are huge spoilers and the puzzles were highly logical. I remember passing kq5 w/o hints and how I amaze myself by solving a puzzle through dumb luck; after being frustrated in a puzzle in trying to get the wizard's wand, I decided to leave the computer in a safe place where Garaham wouldn't be killed by the wizard or put into prision by his guards(the library) and talk to my brother, forgetting to pause the game. After 15 minutes, I came back and while still at the same room, trying to see what to do, the wizard appears in a room away, getting into bed. The puzzle may be creativefun, but the time it takes to wait increases the frustation of a gamer. I mean, I wouldn't think someone would actually spend 15 minutes the first time playing the kq5, to wait that long.
There is more I want to say, but I will end my thought here since I didn't get enough sleep from the day before.
I wouldn't mind a couple of trickier puzzles myself (though I suspect each episode may become a little harder than the last, in the same way the Bone games seem to be (have been?) going)
However, every review I've read for Broken Sword 4 seemed to conclude it was a little too hardcore? And that many of the puzzles a little too obscure? & that this would alienate many people trying to play the game?
While I'm all up for a few brain teasers - I don't want to be stumped by puzzles that are only there to satisfy/challenge the sort of person who can complete the Times cross-word puzzle in under 5 minutes.
Are the listening to the comments? They sure do. I have personally contacted them about the issue of buying separate episodes, and whether there is away if we buy all episodes to get a full CD after then, plus the pricing relative to the game length. The fixed it with the pre-order thing.
As for the game length and difficulty, I think if we look at it from their side, the adventture gaming industry has been more dying in the recent years, and for the staff who quit their job to start a new company to work full two years on 1 game, and then it might not boom as expected. They might go out of business soon, so this (although I dont like it) might be the best solution. Thet have brought us back laugh and joy after 13 years! Now, when there are limited scenes in an adventure game, its natural it will be easy. So, at the end, its a WIN WIN Situation for both of us on the long run. As they get more stable they might be releasing longer episodes. Keep in mind they will build on the existing.
I think two basic adventure game mechanics are changed through the episodic approach and that makes the game too easy for some or creates a feeling that the game has not a large enough scope:
- First the number of places and thus the number of objects you can collect/interact with at a given time is smaller.
- Secondly there is no transition of early game collectibles to the late game. In many great adventure games objects you picked up very early in the game could be of use in the mid or late game.
I really enjoyed Culture Shock and am happy that episodic gaming could be a very viable way to recultivate the adventure genre - but I think those two things could hinder the games from becoming like those of the "good old days". But I figure that is not what you are aiming for (and it is probably not a viable business option) and I respect that.As for putting games down halfway through and never picking them up again..that only happens if you are not interested in the story of the game, and don't want to find out what happens next.. I doubt telltale would ever do that since they regard the story aspect of their games very highly. My opinion is they just need to balance out the gameplay of their products a lot more.. Commercial games these days are all game, no story. Telltale is a lot of story not much game.. I think theres a happy medium somewhere in between.
Actually, that's not the case for me. I only buy 2 or so games per year thesedays, and let's see, these are some I've bought in the last couple of years;
Indiana Jones & The Emperor's Tomb. I was enjoying playing it, but came up to a section where there were a lot of jumps over a pit section. As there's no quicksave, everytime I mistimed a jump I had to play 10 or so minutes to get back to the same point, which, after a couple of hours, made me take a break from the game. I never returned to it and eventually uninstalled it.
KOTOR - loved the game, loved the story. Went away on vacation or something, forgot what the sidequests were about, kind lost track of what had gone on. Now a year later I know I'll have to start all over if I ever want to finish it, and I just don't know if I can commit the time to do that.
Beyond Good & Evil: Got so pissed off at the lack of y-axis mouse-invert that I had to stop playing, even though the story was really shaping up.
So, for me it tends to be getting stuck, forgetting the story after a break or sheer frustration of gameplay mechanics that causes me to stop playing - not a lack of interest in the story.
If that makes sense? Which I don't think it does, but oh well.
Inventory combining is good. I also think more inventory red herrings would help the difficulty level.
One dissapointment with the puzzle gameplay was the making of the helmet to repell the hypnotic rays. I thought I would be going on 3 or 4 seperate puzzle missions to find all of the ingredients, but alas, it was never required.
Still, Culture Shock was a massive improvement on Bone, but we still need more inventory, more inventory, more inventory.
Old Man Murray's theory is based on the fact that a whole lot of adventure games (including King's Quest, which was kinda the paragon of adventure games for a good long while, although I never understood why) has completely illogical puzzles. Shake a tambourine at a snake? Use cheese on the magic machine? Either the people building those adventure games were really struggling with the whole concept, or someone had decided that the most fun paradigm was 'trial and error'.
The twine + golf ball retriever + paper cup puzzle was logical. There were more than enough clues in the game to suggest that combination. A game can be entirely wacky, and filled with really wacky objects and people, and still be internally logical. Sam & Max wasn't one of the reasons why the adventure game genre died.
I see no reason why Telltale can't build an audience up to that level of puzzle solving. Sure, make it easy at first so people get the hang of the whole thing. Make the first few item-combo puzzles easy. Put the audience in the right mental state to start thinking that way.
I really liked the talking puzzle early in the game where Sam & Max played good-cop bad-cop with the rat. I was hoping there'd be a lot more like that.
They should also put Max back into the inventory so we can use him on things.
I also would have liked some more wacky other characters in there. The swearing psychic, the boring moleman storyteller, evelyn morison, the jilted mad scientist, the cute kitten with the adsurdly deep voice - I missed those guys. The Soda Poppers and Brady Culture were not quite wacky enough.
However, the game was excellent. The dialogue was spot on. And I _loved_ how much they used the same locations over and over. I'm a huge fan of those games where you go back to the same spots over and over again to find more and more puzzles as the game progresses. It's like some small but intricate knot, or an unfolding puzzle-box or something. I loved it.
And the artwork. Fantastic. I loved wandering around in that world. It was awesome.
All in all, I am most pleased and excited for the next episode.
I don't think so.
--Erwin
But if you do have all six episodes installed on your computer at the same time, they merge together to form a evil A.I. bent on world domination (also providing a rather natty screen-saver)
DG
The only things that matter to me, are the experience - and, mostly importantly of all, wacky, wacky humour.
Once you've solved a difficult puzzle, it's never going to be difficult again. Why does the difficulty matter?
Telltale have filled this game with a ridiculous amount of replayability for an adventure game, loads of little hidden easter eggs. I barely found any, and although I did get stuck once or twice, the logic in finding them is mostly pretty zany - much like old-school S&M.
I'm happy with how things are going, and although slightly concerned that apparently the second one is shorter, i'm looking forward to it being funnier. Bring it on
But you said it yourself, once you have solved a puzzle, it's never going to be difficult again. So in truth there is NO replayability, especially for those that haven't read this very forum and found out the easter eggs are there. Easter eggs and secrets are the sort of things are the things that NORMALLY appeal to the hardcore gamers. Though many of which are simply found by doing things in a slightly illogical order.
And lets be honest, who is going to play through the same puzzles (which by now they already know the solution to) god knows how many times to hear maybe 10-20 extra lines of dialogue?
ONLY the Hardcore gamers and die hard fans, yet the easier gameplay is geared to encourage more casual gamers.
Seems like pretty fuzzy logic to me.
I think you're correct in your assessment of how easter eggs appeal to the hardcore and easier puzzles appeal to casual gamers, but I don't think it's necessarily fuzzy logic to have both. It actually helps prove that you don't have to sacrifice one for the other.
I would say it's analogous to a Pixar movie (or some of the better Disney movies in the past) or even the movie Shrek, where there are separate elements that appeal to kids and adults.
Whatever happened to fuzzy-logic?
I remember in the ninties, everyone said it was going to be this huge thing that would change the way everything worked in the 21st Centruy... And then it justy kinda vanished? - Which, thinking about it, is surprisingly similar to my sex life... whatever did happen to that?
Unfortunately, the Y2K bug is responsible for both disappearances.
"But if these monthly Sam and Max installments can't be any larger, they should at least take some effort to figure out. The jokes will be all the funnier if I have to work for them."
situation comedy got a 7.8
The advantage of this is it would give the games an extra day or so of replayability.
I feel the game would be better with some more thinking involved, I realise that I'm an oldschool gamer and have enjoyed games such as the original monkey island series, the original sam and max, Day of the tentacle (especially) and other such classics as The Grim Fandango. And that such experience is great for gearing my brain towards solving these puzzles, but I can't imagine anyone having any kind of difficulty solving any of these puzzle as long as they actually think about it for a minute or two.
The problem with ep2 was that it was like a slightly interactive movie, I could see how to solve the puzzles way ahead of time, even before it was obvious what needed doing
*spoilers below*
For example it was obvious even through only 30 seconds of chat with the woman who runs the tabloid about aliens, and then running into the guy that can change colour, that the puzzle was to turn him green. The game was then about walking backwards and forwards between these 2 areas, waiting while areas load etc.
*end spoilers*
When you can reasonably guess ahead of time whats going to happen it becomes a bit boring/tedious walking between areas and loading the areas since all its really leading upto is something you already know.
I think a good starting point in making it harder would be interaction between inventory items, and also having a lot more items to pick up. A good Idea would be to add inventory items that you simply don't need for anything that just throw you off the scent.
Monkey island 3 was great for this you had tons of items to carry around and some of them were very "generic use" type items, nails, glue, cork, hammer, that could be potentially used in a lot of areas which made finding the right answer fairly hard without thinking about it, partly because the amount of combinations of items to add together not to mention also adding to the environment made trial and error tedious and just not worth it because it took too long, you had to THINK about what the best idea to the puzzle was and then try a few things.
Overall I think the new sam and max adventures are really good and Telltale studios have nailed down a lot of the areas which might have potentially been problematic such as recreating cartoon effects in 3D etc, but to make these games truly great and extend their play time significantly, the puzzles need to be harder and the inventory needs to be bigger and more complex.
Also forget about multiple difficulty levels, but if the puzzles become quite hard then add in a hints system, other puzzle adventures have done this just like the grim fandago and monkey islands 4 (both 3d) the characters head would turn to look directly at anything important in the imediate area. Max could also give hints after being stuck for longer than 20 minutes or something like that (these should also be toggle option for old school gamers who want no additional help)
The only problem I have with the games is that the whole thing is too linear. Anyway, I don't regret buying the game. I'd buy it either way as part of the collection (definitely opting for the CD-ROM version when it's out).
And here's an idea. If TellTale wants to get even more people looking their way, they could make a GTA-Clone out of Sam & Max. Huh? What do you guys think? Hello? Is this thing on? *tumbleweed*
Yeah, one thing with the episodic format is that while there is some flexibility in solving things (you can knock out 3 soda poppers, fake 3 symptoms, get 3 celebrity features, win over 2 judges in any order you want), there is still a very linear goal to each episode.
The idea of a GTA-clone is intriguing--run around solving cases in a very non-linear way, but it might be beyond the scope of what Telltale can develop as a tiny company.
I guess more realistically, some people would rather have the ability to solve 6 cases at the same time instead of the episodic, 1-at-a-time version you get right now--imagine the scope of a game in which you've knocked out 2 Soda Poppers but are stuck on how to get rid of the 3rd Soda Popper, and since there's so much other things to do, it isn't a matter of trial and error to figure it out--so you go and try to figure out how to win a singing contest in the meantime.
But then you can't really utilize recurring characters as much--you can't have the Soda Poppers be judges in one puzzle while you're trying to knock them out in another, and it's less realistic to have Sybil change her job or Bosco disguise himself within the same game.
And well, I think it being episodic probably makes it more likely that people are willing to give it a try. The $9 cost really makes it almost a no-brainer for people to try and give it a shot, something people probably are less willing to do with even a $35 game.
Anyway, they seem committed to creating a new type of game that can have a story while remaining underneath a 20-40 hour saga. Right now games seem to be divided between the very short and story-less popular games like Bejeweled, Tetris, etc. and the very long and story-full (and costly) games like GTA and Zelda. Telltale seems to be striving to create that new middle ground.
Even if you didn't have to break a sweat, there still were a few puzzle gems. Especially the last one. Giant spoiler ahead, explaining the final puzzle... beware!
**You notice the microphone sparking. Ok, so maybe that will be useful, but for what?
**You start talking to the host about the tabloid picture... someone else is involved... she brings out other guests to dispute... hmmm... she moves the mic to them...
**She has a glass of water on her desk... but you cannot drink it.
**You see your banjo. Try singing? Nothing happens... maybe I should sing with a high pitched voice. Doing such breaks the glass. Just like what happened to Specs' glasses in the Idol contest... nice hint!
**Ah, sparking mic and water, now we are getting somewhere. You remember she moved the microphone to the guests as they came in. So you bring out one of the Soda Poppers... but the water doesn't touch the mic in that location. Tricky, TTG, nice touch.
**You remember that the cow caused the mic to be put in the middle of the desk... right where the water is!
**Sparks fly, mission accomplished.
What is nice, is that you still had to use all of these items and props, even if they weren't in your inventory. That puzzle is not as straightforward as any of the puzzles in the first game, and if you analyze it a little, rather than just guess-and-click, you will see it is a pretty good puzzle. In fact, another hint is that you need to use something from each of the 3 facets of your stardom.
Spoilers on the last puzzle again!
Now tell me that isn't a clever puzzle. It is logical, and isn't blatantly laid out for you.
Hats off to you TTG! And by hats I mean lampshades.
Exploring in adventure games is, for me, one of their biggest draws, but because these games are so easy I find that I skip many things because the puzzles get finished so fast. This was a bigger problem in the first game because I wasn't ready for that but I've adjusted my playing style for the second game to try to extend the time it takes me to go through it.
I think a big improvement for this game would be to increase the number of puzzles in a given area. In most 'rooms' there is only one puzzle to solve and/or one inventory item to acquire. It makes traveling through the areas not as interesting as it might be because once you've done something in an area, you don't really need to go back to look around and see if you've missed something. Also, most (if not all?) inventory items have only one use. Perhaps using the same item or thing for multiple puzzles might help.
I realize these suggestions are perhaps beyond the scope of a episodic adventure game but I think if some of them were incorporated the game might feel more "free" or non-linear because there would be a reason to revisit past areas more than twice (once to get the puzzle, and once to solve it after you have the right item).
YEAH ! LET US USE THE GUN AND SHOOT RANDOMLY AT THINGS MORE !
When will we see a sam & max fps ? ^^
(i know no one cares, but that was my first post on that forum, and i'm so happy i think evreryone should know)