^At the core of these arguments is WHY the adventure games markets have diminished. I'm not sure if you're aware of the point 'n click "escape the room"-style games that I've talked about earlier, but those are going like hot cakes. They're free, but they're so in demand. Just take a look at a lazylaces.com or a http://www.nordinho.net/ post when a particularly good/challenging point 'n click game is released. People go bananas to play the game, people stay up all night to solve the puzzles and talk about them with others. Fasco at http://www.fasco-csc.com/index_e.php revolutionoized (if not started) the flash-based, free, point 'n click genre and now there have been thousands of copy cat games that thousands of people can't wait to play all over the world.
A point 'n click "escape the room" type game is VERY similar to an Adventure Game. An Adventure Game is just a lot longer. So that very fact makes me question why the adventure game genre has died. Maybe it's died because the manufacturers think it died? Maybe because the games have become bad (based on some link someone kept posting earlier) so the gamers lost interest. Based on the prolifiteration of the point 'n click "mini adventure games" as I like to call them, it baffles me that the genre is "dead" and needs resurrecting. I just think that the manufacturers of such games just don't reach out enough to those players. I was an avid Nintendo/Sega fan when I was little. Then, an online game called Crimson Room completely enamored me. Only through idle research did I stumble across Myst. Only because I sent the link to the Crimson Room to my friend did he unveil the Monkey Island series that he didn't think I would be interested in. So maybe the problem is in the marketing? I KNOW there are many many many people who are obsessed with the point 'n click puzzles based on the overwhelming responses to the free online games posted, so maybe the marketers are just not reaching out to them much as they didn't reach out to me when I was looking for alternatives to the Crimson Room. And let me tell you, those "escape the room" puzzles are oftentimes challenging and all kinds of people jump at the opporunity. Just something to ponder.
Should we start another thread? 15 pages is getting ridiculous, although starting a thread about adventure games in general in a Sam and Max forum seems like something moderators would take down as irrelevant. Thoughts?
Anyway, just quickly, I believe I read that Telltale are very aware of the 'casual games' market and really do want to try and tap into those very people. Short games at regular intervals with a low price point and small download sizes is what they've come up with to work towards achieving that.
Even Hero1 has gone on record as saying that he does not find the puzzles in Myst to be fun at all.
There were a couple of things that were good in S&M puzzles. They were logical, they could have been more difficult but still in the same spirit, you know solvable and logical. Also, they were actually funny. Who wouldn´t love dropping a bowling ball on someone´s head? Or faking rabies? Sadly the puzzles were not only logical they also were obvious as hell. So, I think only the puzzle difficulty should be improved not the whole approach to making good puzzles. Twisted, funny, challenging but solvable, that´s how I like my puzzles.
I believe that there are people who like challenge, who like to use their brain, think and all that. There´s that sudoku-thing, escape the room puzzles and so on. On the other hand, it could be possible that Telltale couldn´t even approach these people and market their games to them. On the other hand I am sure that they are happy with gametap type of folks. It´s always easier to approach and audience that is easy to approach. The only problem with this is that the thinking type of people may very well be a more faithful audience and stick around longer while the casual gaming market is a lot more instable. Look at Gametap´s Top 5 list. S&M is number three and DEUS EX (released back in 2000) is number one! Where is the excitement that kept episode one on top of that list for weeks? Surely they couldn´t have forgotten about the game already?
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that I believe a harder game would have a market, though a market that isn´t too easy to reach.
I think the big underlying thing here is the 'episodic' nature of the product. That and the whole adventure gaming is 'dead' argument.
If one looks at the trends, PC gaming is already a small section of the whole gaming market, with the consoles being the leaders in gaming at the moment (like it or not). With adventure gaming being mostly a PC based market and also only being a small section of this submarket makes it very marginal indeed.
One of the things telltale must consider is how many ppl bying episode one will still buy episode four, five and six? Making episode one (and two) hardcore to please the old gamers would make no sense. Many of the Gametap users might try it, be discouraged when being stuck in a room for 30 mins and go back to some braindead FPS. Opertunity lost.
Now imagine the same gamer plays episode one. He finishes it in 4 hours and loves the experience. He tries episode two and finds the same. Episode three comes out and he finds it a bit more difficult, but now he tries to solve it, as he has not only invested his time and money, but he is deep enough in the whole storyline to be motivated to work for it. Opertunity gained!
While most die hard Sam&Max lovers will bitch about the difficulty, we would probably stick with the series (as i will) and might be surprised in the end how much we enjoyed it.
Personally I loathed the episodic idea. I think most games using it are overpriced for what you get. Being a student, I am very careful on which games I spend money, but for $9 an episode with content that is certainly worthwhile, I am very enthusiastic about telltale's approach with this product.
I think judging the whole season on the first two episodes are both unfair and unreasonable. Wait till the complete season, or most of it have been released before passing judgement.
I think at the price we hardly can complain about the quality of the content or the length of each episode!
Yet another from my "just one guy's opinion" pile...
They say hindsight is 20/20. The truth is, from the inside, when you're in the thick of it (or, like me, in the thin of it just off to the side of the thick, watching everything and occasionally chipping in) it's surprisingly difficult to judge how what you're making will turn out. How long will this end up? How difficult? Will it even be good? It's not easy to know. When making these games, nobody is sitting at their desk, pointing at the screen, saying "This is totally awesome. This is it right here. We've done it!" Everyone is actually saying "Geez, I don't know... What the heck are we making again? I think it's pretty cool, but will people even like this?" So it goes with most creative endeavors, so it goes with Sam & Max.
Little known fact: when Culture Shock was wrapping up, quite a lot of the team was worried that, all said and done, the game had turned out too difficult. There was even talk of putting in a Bone-style tutorial and automated hint system because there were worries that people would spend so much time stuck that they wouldn't be able to get to the end. Yes, I know, shocking I'm sure. We had done some group playtests, and we had compared our gut feeling about the puzzles against our gut feelings from The Great Cow Race, and what a lot of people's guts said was "this is surprisingly hard." And... it's not that these people are dumb. Most people at Telltale have played their fair share of adventure games, and have even worked on a few - some of "the greats" even. It's just really really really hard to tell looking out from inside. Needless to say, we know now that "too hard" isn't the most accurate descriptor for the first episode. Cool.
This takes us to the second issue, which is the blessing and the curse of having a real honest-to-god episodic release schedule. By the time Culture Shock came out, episodes 2 and 3 were pretty much written and designed. Some revisions were of course made to the designs over time, because the episodes were still in production, but there comes a time when you have to actually make the game. So, realistically, I imagine that your guys' perception of the first few episodes are going to be in the same vein as Culture Shock in many regards.
Does this bother me personally? Do I even think it's an issue at all? Nope! I think Culture Shock and Situation: Comedy are totally solid, enjoyable games, and are more hilarious and true to the source material than I could have hoped for. Before I started working here I covered Telltale on various gaming news sites for a couple years, and I spent much of my Internet-enabled youth maintaining a very persnickety news blog covering the exploits of Telltale and LucasArts and, well, I was dubious. Now that I've played two episodes, I am no longer dubious. I am very happy.
Will future episodes, the ones designed after Culture Shock came out, and after everyone on the team really got settled into making the games be "better?" I couldn't tell you, and I doubt anyone else here could either. They seem longer! They seem more difficult! Their locations and puzzles are definitely getting crazier and crazier, and many wishes from these forums will be granted (if only by chance), so that's all good, but beyond that, who knows? You just can't tell. Culture Shock came in easier than people were expecting, Situation: Comedy came in feeling a little more diverse and crazy (for the better) than people here worried it might. You do the best work you can and then hope that the game you think you're making is the game you're actually making (or better). After the dust has settled it's easy as hell to know what ruled beyond belief and what didn't come out exactly as you thought it might, but until that happens for all six episodes and we can sit back and observe the damage from afar, all anyone can do is keep steering towards "make it better and more awesome" (or as Kevin would say, "sucks less") and hope for the best. Everyone here is pleased as punch that the episodes are being so well received so far, and channeling that into the future episodes, and I think it will show.
I think when you are doing something as ambitious as making 6 episodes released within a month of each other there are gonna be problems.. In hindsight it may have been better to do the pilot.. release that..and then wait 3 months after before releasing the monthly episodes.. You have to see how the audience is gonna react.. and then you can use that going into the season. I can't fault telltale for making the season of games.. you never know how it will go unless you try it out..
If episode 3 is in the same range as situation comedy and culture shock as far as gameplay, well personally I'm gonna be bitterly disappointed. There's nothing I can do about it though, so I'm just gonna have to accept it and try and enjoy the remaining episodes.
In hindsight it may have been better to do the pilot.. release that..and then wait 3 months after before releasing the monthly episodes.. You have to see how the audience is gonna react.
No, they'll just get to see the exacty same moaning from the exact same 4 or 5 people.
In hindsight it may have been better to do the pilot.. release that..and then wait 3 months after before releasing the monthly episodes.. You have to see how the audience is gonna react.. and then you can use that going into the season. I can't fault telltale for making the season of games.. you never know how it will go unless you try it out..
Actually, they already waited 2 months between the release of the pilot and the monthlies, so to get what you want, they would probably have to have waited 4-6 months. I'm sure the overwhelming positive responses, reviews and awards that Telltale has gotten would say otherwise, and the close release schedule was probably the Gametap dealbreaker that helped pay for everything in the first place.
And as Jake said, even knowing what people think, it's really hard for them to judge what they are making until it gets out in the public:
I couldn't tell you, and I doubt anyone else here could either. They seem longer! They seem more difficult! Their locations and puzzles are definitely getting crazier and crazier, and many wishes from these forums will be granted (if only by chance), so that's all good, but beyond that, who knows? You just can't tell. Culture Shock came in easier than people were expecting, Situation: Comedy came in feeling a little more diverse and crazy (for the better) than people here worried it might. You do the best work you can and then hope that the game you think you're making is the game you're actually making (or better). After the dust has settled it's easy as hell to know what ruled beyond belief and what didn't come out exactly as you thought it might, but until that happens for all six episodes and we can sit back and observe the damage from afar, all anyone can do is keep steering towards "make it better and more awesome" (or as Kevin would say, "sucks less") and hope for the best.
Nah, releasing the episodes with only a month between builds a nice momentum. Keeps the interest in the game fresh. Keep it going Telltale. The thing I love most about these games is that they are made with a lot of lot of love.
It is very clear to me , as a player, that the people at telltale have put their heart and soul into this. That's why you get people saying that feel like they are rating a friend's exam when then they rate the game
Personaly, I love them. Yes, I finished both in one sitting but I was laughing and having a blast throughout. When the game ends I just eand up wishing there were more.
For only $8 Telltale serves up the finest appetizers ever. Too bad they tend to leave you hungry. Can't wait until I'm able to play the whole season.
Just so you guys know, I am certain there are other people like me who are very interested but are waiting until the season is complete before buying anything.. and if each episode continues to get shorter, it will turn a lot of people off... 6-8 hours for $35 is not a good deal to me. This is part of the reason that I dislike episodic games.. they very very rarely have a decent length overall. Just make a full game damnit.
This is part of the reason that I dislike episodic games.. they very very rarely have a decent length overall. Just make a full game damnit.
Dude, c'mon - Theres been like, what, 4-5 episodic games released (professionally) so far? Sin Episodes, Half-Life 2, Bone, Sam & Max - maybe a couple of others I haven't heard about? (besides Half-Life 2 and Sin Episodes were both of a pretty decent length)
I figure it's $8.99 per episode - I'd guess about the same price as a cinema ticket? So you can spend a couple for hours watching a movie, or spend a few hours playing Sam & Max?
Besides, I don't think TellTale had the finances to develop a full title (and advertise, distribute, etc...) - Would you rather have a Sam & Max game via episodic access or no Sam & Max game at all?
We're only $17.50 into that hypothetical $35 with just 3 episodes released, and the shortest reported times in total to complete those three episodes are about 5-6 hours, with the average time for all three episodes coming in around 8-9 hours. There are still three more full episodes to be released, and though it's tough to be sure, from the look of things, The Mole, The Mob, and The Meatball may end up the shortest episode in the season. It's looking like in the end people will average 12-15 hours for the whole thing, which is a longer game than you get out of many $40-50 'full-length' titles.
How do you figure 6-8 hours in total?
Judging from the couple of episodes I've played so far, I'd guess 12-15 minimum?
Dude, c'mon - Theres been like, what, 4-5 episodic games released (professionally) so far? Sin Episodes, Half-Life 2, Bone, Sam & Max - maybe a couple of others I haven't heard about? (besides Half-Life 2 and Sin Episodes were both of a pretty decent length)
I figure it's $8.99 per episode - I'd guess about the same price as a cinema ticket? So you can spend a couple for hours watching a movie, or spend a few hours playing Sam & Max?
Besides, I don't think TellTale had the finances to develop a full title (and advertise, distribute, etc...) - Would you rather have a Sam & Max game via episodic access or no Sam & Max game at all?
For shame shadow9d9! For shame!
I rather a full game than multiple 1-2 hour games that seem to be getting shorter and are all considered easy.
I play adventure games for challenge too along with story and humor. I am just disappointed that the reviews keep showing shorter length, easy difficulty, and not many puzzles.
I refuse to go to movie theaters because the price is a ripoff. I have netflix. Additionally, tv shows are consistently of higher quality than movies(Battlestar Galactica/4400).
We're only $17.50 into that hypothetical $35 with just 3 episodes released, and the shortest reported times in total to complete those three episodes are about 5-6 hours, with the average time for all three episodes coming in around 8-9 hours. There are still three more full episodes to be released, and though it's tough to be sure, from the look of things, The Mole, The Mob, and The Meatball may end up the shortest episode in the season. It's looking like in the end people will average 12-15 hours for the whole thing, which is a longer game than you get out of many $40-50 'full-length' titles.
All 3 episodes have been labelled as easy and short, not good for potential buyers like me. Especially since they keep getting shorter. Just stating my opinion.
Let me just go on record as saying that I think the episodic nature of the series is fine, and it works just as well with the other games too. I'm even considering it! And aside from the few who bemoan it, most people seem to like it too.
Let me just go on record as saying that I think the episodic nature of the series is fine, and it works just as well with the other games too. I'm even considering it! And aside from the few who bemoan it, most people seem to like it too.
You can't possibly know what "most people" think about it considering a super small percentage post here and you do not know their sales numbers and have a comparison of how many people like me are holding out to see how the full season is.
Maybe this has been covered already, but I'm frankly not going to go back through fifteen pages of posts to find the answer. What about the idea of Max giving progressively stronger hints through lines of dialog? I didn't notice it in episode one (and I haven't played episode three yet), but I really liked how this seemed to be the case in episode two.
I very nearly went to the hint board when I got stumped while we were sitting on Myra's couch at the end. But something that Max said at least gave me an idea of what my goal was.
Is this something that will be implemented in later episodes? I think it's a great alternative to straight-up online hint systems. Of course, players that don't want hints might feel it deters them from hearing all of the humorous dialog between Sam and Max...
So I guess, as with anything it's tough to come up with a good balance. I do sympathize with the developers.
You can't possibly know what "most people" think about it considering a super small percentage post here and you do not know their sales numbers and have a comparison of how many people like me are holding out to see how the full season is.
You can't possibly know what "most people" think about it considering a super small percentage post here and you do not know their sales numbers and have a comparison of how many people like me are holding out to see how the full season is.
Eh, for the past 4 months (going on 5), there has consistently been a Sam and Max game on Gametap's Top 5 most-played list. For some weeks, new Gametap releases like Silent Hill 2, Deus Ex, Toejam and Earl, Sudoku or Civilization 3 pop up on the top 5, but nothing has stayed on the Top 5 as long as Sam and Max have. Though I think from here on out, Myst Online will be on there forever since the very nature of that MMO adventure game consists being never ending and asking you to play it over and over.
But just think about it, these short games are being played by more people and more often than games like Deus Ex (a long multi-level FPS), Civilization 3 (long-ass, time-sucking strategy game), and high-end, long games like the Splinter Cell series, Silent Hill 2, and Beyond Good and Evil.
Telltale's low-budget, simple point-and click designed, short games are beating out a lot of pretty good titles. If that's not a testament to their success, I don't know what is.
More importantly, Gametap helped fund the development of these Sam and Max games, and--given their good reception from Gametap users--they are probably thrilled about how it's turned out.
Eh, for the past 4 months (going on 5), there has consistently been a Sam and Max game on Gametap's Top 5 most-played list. For some weeks, new Gametap releases like Silent Hill 2, Deus Ex, Toejam and Earl, Sudoku or Civilization 3 pop up on the top 5, but nothing has stayed on the Top 5 as long as Sam and Max have. Though I think from here on out, Myst Online will be on there forever since the very nature of that MMO adventure game consists being never ending and asking you to play it over and over.
But just think about it, these short games are being played by more people and more often than games like Deus Ex (a long multi-level FPS), Civilization 3 (long-ass, time-sucking strategy game), and high-end, long games like the Splinter Cell series, Silent Hill 2, and Beyond Good and Evil.
Telltale's low-budget, simple point-and click designed, short games are beating out a lot of pretty good titles. If that's not a testament to their success, I don't know what is.
More importantly, Gametap helped fund the development of these Sam and Max games, and--given their good reception from Gametap users--they are probably thrilled about how it's turned out.
Those games are all old games.. why would people be interested in them? I also have never and will never use gametap and neither will most people. I would download directly...
Those games are all old games.. why would people be interested in them? I also have never and will never use gametap and neither will most people. I would download directly...
That's not the point of the argument at all. The fact is that Gametap is a service focused mostly on old games--this is why I pointed out that these same very old games pop up on the top 5 for 1-4 weeks whenever Gametap releases them--which means people actually are interested in these old games, (I'm a subscriber, I follow the list constantly--the over 5 year old Civilization 3 was on there for about 5 weeks, Silent Hill 2 was on there for about 3 weeks, Toejam and Earl was on there for 2 weeks, Deus Ex was on there for 4 weeks, etc.. all right after Gametap released them) but none have had the staying power of Sam and Max, which has been on there for 4 months.
It is a short game, to be sure, but either people are playing it multiple times, people are spending a lot of time to play it, or tons of people are playing it (or some combination thereof) to warrant how these 1-3 hour games have managed to eke out a spot on the list for the past 4 months.
And it does matter what the people on Gametap think, or how good it is on Gametap, because Gametap is in effect Telltale's largest customer, shelling out all that money for early on.
I also have never and will never use gametap and neither will most people.
Now who's claiming to know what "most" people think? I'm assuming that when you say most people will never use Gametap you're referring to the people who are choosing which avenue to specifically play Sam & Max, and I agree with that, but what about the people who are already Gametap subscribers and/or who subscribed oblivious to Sam & Max's existence and discovered it through the service? Do those people just not count? I'll bet the Gametap bigwigs would disagree.
That's not the point of the argument at all. The fact is that Gametap is a service focused mostly on old games--this is why I pointed out that these same very old games pop up on the top 5 for 1-4 weeks whenever Gametap releases them--which means people actually are interested in these old games, (I'm a subscriber, I follow the list constantly--the over 5 year old Civilization 3 was on there for about 5 weeks, Silent Hill 2 was on there for about 3 weeks, Toejam and Earl was on there for 2 weeks, Deus Ex was on there for 4 weeks, etc.. all right after Gametap released them) but none have had the staying power of Sam and Max, which has been on there for 4 months.
It is a short game, to be sure, but either people are playing it multiple times, people are spending a lot of time to play it, or tons of people are playing it (or some combination thereof) to warrant how these 1-3 hour games have managed to eke out a spot on the list for the past 4 months.
And it does matter what the people on Gametap think, or how good it is on Gametap, because Gametap is in effect Telltale's largest customer, shelling out all that money for early on.
New games beating old games is a surprise to you? I just don't get that.
Yet another from my "just one guy's opinion" pile...
Does this bother me personally? Do I even think it's an issue at all? Nope! I think Culture Shock and Situation: Comedy are totally solid, enjoyable games, and are more hilarious and true to the source material than I could have hoped for. Before I started working here I covered Telltale on various gaming news sites for a couple years, and I spent much of my Internet-enabled youth maintaining a very persnickety news blog covering the exploits of Telltale and LucasArts and, well, I was dubious. Now that I've played two episodes, I am no longer dubious. I am very happy.
I'm glad everyone in Telltale is very happy with the game, but I didn't see any reference in your post to what your customers think about it. Surely that should be the most important benchmark, especially considering there are people who have signed up for the whole season in advance. I'm not saying you should pay special attention to a few people moaning on a forum, but I would hope you're creating something people will want to buy!
Well, I wasn't speaking for the company or for our customers in that post, and really, I still can't speak for any of those people.
I read the forums every day, and I also read all the reviews, and every thread I can find about the game on forums across the Internet - that's part of my job! I can't say what an impact the Internet's response has directly on the games (that's something that's pretty much impossible to quantify) but I know that everyone working on the games is aware of the positive and negative criticisms our products receive from the public.
I'm not saying you should pay special attention to a few people moaning on a forum
Yeah, but the difficulty issue has been brought up everywhere. In reviews, forums and everywhere else. You know, it has always been like: "It´s a good and funny game, but..." and then some bitching about the difficulty or length. Sure, I totally understand that we shouldn´t expect a lengthy episode but at least the difficulty could be improved (on the other hand, if it was more difficult the game would also be longer even though it would have the same amount of puzzles and shit). Actually, as it seems to me, the people who think the difficulty level is ok are the minority (or maybe those dudes just keep their mouths shut). Anyway, let´s stick to the things that are observable: basically everyone say the games are too easy, some don´t mind, some do, but most say they wouldn´t mind a little challenge.
New games beating old games is a surprise to you? I just don't get that.
The discussion was about short games vs long games, and your implied belief that there is no way to tell how much people like these games. I said, look at www.gametap.com, which often does have old games beating Sam and Max games, but never lasting as long on the top 5.
The whole matter of new vs old is a side issue, and doesn't matter as much as the fact that being in the Top 5 pretty much insists that it is popular, which is the main thing.
Incidentally Gametap now has Episode 3 beating the new Myst Online game; This is actually a surprise to me since I expected Myst to stay on top forever; being an online adventure game, Myst is basically an endless game, which I expect a lot of people to play 2-3 hours a day. Episode 1 has also returned to the Top 5 as well (another surprise--though it looks like Dan Connor's theory holds true).
Yeah, but the difficulty issue has been brought up everywhere. In reviews, forums and everywhere else. You know, it has always been like: "It´s a good and funny game, but..." and then some bitching about the difficulty or length.
...
Anyway, let´s stick to the things that are observable: basically everyone say the games are too easy, some don´t mind, some do, but most say they wouldn´t mind a little challenge.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Hey, just looking at the first 5 reviews from the latest Review Roundup for Episode 3, 3 out of 5 of the first 5 (Softpedia, GotNext, and Frictionless Insight don't say anything about the puzzle's being too easy--Got Next asks for more mini-games ("They'd be particularly welcome in a puzzler like this, since being unable to find one item or trigger a discussion could get you stuck for a while. A way to continue enjoying the game while trying to figure out your dilemma would have been a great addition, and here's to hoping there's more than one time waster in future episodes"), and Frictionless Insight asks for more locations and longer length, but no mention of things being too easy.
So it's not actually brought up everywhere, but I'm sure they've heard the cries about difficulty level that are brought up a lot.
Hey man, don´t look at just the first five. If you´d looked at all 24 of them, you would have noticed that in 17 of them the easy puzzle difficulty was viewed more or less negatively. And in the rest of those reviews easiness was mentioned but the reviewer didn´t mind that much or found the easiness to be a positive thing.
So, it pretty much is actually brought up everywhere.
@Jake
May i ask why Episode 3 is the shortest one so far? The reviews i've read so far also indicate that the puzzles will be even easier than before. If that is true this would be really dissapointing as i suspect most of the people like me are waiting for more depth and difficulty and not less and superficial entertainment.
It also would speak against what Emily, if i remember her right, once wrote: that you try to increase the difficulty from episode to episode. At least for the step from E1 to E2 this wasn't the case. Now if it's true that it's even lower... :O/
Hey man, don´t look at just the first five. If you´d looked at all 24 of them, you would have noticed that in 17 of them the easy puzzle difficulty was viewed more or less negatively. And in the rest of those reviews easiness was mentioned but the reviewer didn´t mind that much or found the easiness to be a positive thing.
So, it pretty much is actually brought up everywhere.
Agreed, why just the first 5? I haven't even heard of those sites...
@Jake
May i ask why Episode 3 is the shortest one so far? The reviews i've read so far also indicate that the puzzles will be even easier than before. If that is true this would be really dissapointing as i suspect most of the people like me are waiting for more depth and difficulty and not less and superficial entertainment.
It's not shorter because of any sort of malevolent move on our part, it just came in shorter than expected. Its still a solid, really entertaining episode. Many people just aren't finding it as long as #2. I wrote a pretty long post a few weeks ago with my own personal thoughts on the matter.
When it was pitched to the team, episode 3 sounded long - some said even too long. In practice, once everything was finished up and the game was finally all put together, it came out a little shorter than we thought! D'oh.
Fortunately, many people are saying that 3 is their favorite episode, with some going so far as to say its the funniest so far as well. And even more fortunately, I think episode 4 is going to top 3 in nearly every regard.
3 might be the hiccup on the ramping-things-up ladder in some regards (especially for those who are keen to quantify their gaming experiences solely on a dollars per hour scale, which to me seems to miss the point of art and entertainment), but its a very solid game with what I think is some of the tightest writing and highest production values in a Telltale title so far, and I think you'll like it a lot.
It also would speak against what Emily, if i remember her right, once wrote: that you try to increase the difficulty from episode to episode. At least for the step from E1 to E2 this wasn't the case. Now if it's true that it's even lower...
I think this was the plan (although Brendan's blog on the topic is a lot more authoratitive than I am, seeing as he's designing the games and all ), but everyone has to realize that episodes 2 and 3 were already well into production by the time episode 1 came out and we started getting feedback. It just wasn't possible to change the games drastically based on what we heard about episode 1. My understanding is that ep4 is the first one that could really be influenced by feedback on episode 1.
Also, difficulty is subjective, and as Jake has said, no one's making the games easy or short on purpose. It's a fact of life that a game's difficulty or length can be really hard to judge until it's out there in the world and being played by hundreds of people.
Well, i never did an adventure but other games and so i know that things not always turn out the way they thought to be but regarding that you needed the feedback from Episode 1 i'm still a bit confused as there are such experienced designers behind the game that i thought it should have been a tiny little petty bit more obvious - i can't decrease the text size here, right?!
By the way were there invitations for gamers giving feedback at your place on the episodes before too?
Well, let's just wait how it turns out to be. After all i'm just a person who hates episodes and loves to play adventure games and still has the strong hope to play The Dig II before i die or even much much better be part of the dev team... ;O)
Well, i never did an adventure but other games and so i know that things not always turn out the way they thought to be but regarding that you needed the feedback from Episode 1 i'm still a bit confused as there are such experienced designers behind the game that i thought it should have been a tiny little petty bit more obvious -
You could say the same thing about Full Throttle or Loom. Both of those games are pretty short (but are two of my favorite LucasArts adventures) and I imagine that neither of those games' designers (Tim Schafer and Brian Moriarty, both pretty seasoned adventure game makers) expected their games to be as short as they ended up being when all was said and done. It's not as easy to tell as you'd think.
Comments
A point 'n click "escape the room" type game is VERY similar to an Adventure Game. An Adventure Game is just a lot longer. So that very fact makes me question why the adventure game genre has died. Maybe it's died because the manufacturers think it died? Maybe because the games have become bad (based on some link someone kept posting earlier) so the gamers lost interest. Based on the prolifiteration of the point 'n click "mini adventure games" as I like to call them, it baffles me that the genre is "dead" and needs resurrecting. I just think that the manufacturers of such games just don't reach out enough to those players. I was an avid Nintendo/Sega fan when I was little. Then, an online game called Crimson Room completely enamored me. Only through idle research did I stumble across Myst. Only because I sent the link to the Crimson Room to my friend did he unveil the Monkey Island series that he didn't think I would be interested in. So maybe the problem is in the marketing? I KNOW there are many many many people who are obsessed with the point 'n click puzzles based on the overwhelming responses to the free online games posted, so maybe the marketers are just not reaching out to them much as they didn't reach out to me when I was looking for alternatives to the Crimson Room. And let me tell you, those "escape the room" puzzles are oftentimes challenging and all kinds of people jump at the opporunity. Just something to ponder.
Should we start another thread? 15 pages is getting ridiculous, although starting a thread about adventure games in general in a Sam and Max forum seems like something moderators would take down as irrelevant. Thoughts?
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6
Anyway, just quickly, I believe I read that Telltale are very aware of the 'casual games' market and really do want to try and tap into those very people. Short games at regular intervals with a low price point and small download sizes is what they've come up with to work towards achieving that.
There were a couple of things that were good in S&M puzzles. They were logical, they could have been more difficult but still in the same spirit, you know solvable and logical. Also, they were actually funny. Who wouldn´t love dropping a bowling ball on someone´s head? Or faking rabies? Sadly the puzzles were not only logical they also were obvious as hell. So, I think only the puzzle difficulty should be improved not the whole approach to making good puzzles. Twisted, funny, challenging but solvable, that´s how I like my puzzles.
I believe that there are people who like challenge, who like to use their brain, think and all that. There´s that sudoku-thing, escape the room puzzles and so on. On the other hand, it could be possible that Telltale couldn´t even approach these people and market their games to them. On the other hand I am sure that they are happy with gametap type of folks. It´s always easier to approach and audience that is easy to approach. The only problem with this is that the thinking type of people may very well be a more faithful audience and stick around longer while the casual gaming market is a lot more instable. Look at Gametap´s Top 5 list. S&M is number three and DEUS EX (released back in 2000) is number one! Where is the excitement that kept episode one on top of that list for weeks? Surely they couldn´t have forgotten about the game already?
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that I believe a harder game would have a market, though a market that isn´t too easy to reach.
If one looks at the trends, PC gaming is already a small section of the whole gaming market, with the consoles being the leaders in gaming at the moment (like it or not). With adventure gaming being mostly a PC based market and also only being a small section of this submarket makes it very marginal indeed.
One of the things telltale must consider is how many ppl bying episode one will still buy episode four, five and six? Making episode one (and two) hardcore to please the old gamers would make no sense. Many of the Gametap users might try it, be discouraged when being stuck in a room for 30 mins and go back to some braindead FPS. Opertunity lost.
Now imagine the same gamer plays episode one. He finishes it in 4 hours and loves the experience. He tries episode two and finds the same. Episode three comes out and he finds it a bit more difficult, but now he tries to solve it, as he has not only invested his time and money, but he is deep enough in the whole storyline to be motivated to work for it. Opertunity gained!
While most die hard Sam&Max lovers will bitch about the difficulty, we would probably stick with the series (as i will) and might be surprised in the end how much we enjoyed it.
Personally I loathed the episodic idea. I think most games using it are overpriced for what you get. Being a student, I am very careful on which games I spend money, but for $9 an episode with content that is certainly worthwhile, I am very enthusiastic about telltale's approach with this product.
I think judging the whole season on the first two episodes are both unfair and unreasonable. Wait till the complete season, or most of it have been released before passing judgement.
I think at the price we hardly can complain about the quality of the content or the length of each episode!
They say hindsight is 20/20. The truth is, from the inside, when you're in the thick of it (or, like me, in the thin of it just off to the side of the thick, watching everything and occasionally chipping in) it's surprisingly difficult to judge how what you're making will turn out. How long will this end up? How difficult? Will it even be good? It's not easy to know. When making these games, nobody is sitting at their desk, pointing at the screen, saying "This is totally awesome. This is it right here. We've done it!" Everyone is actually saying "Geez, I don't know... What the heck are we making again? I think it's pretty cool, but will people even like this?" So it goes with most creative endeavors, so it goes with Sam & Max.
Little known fact: when Culture Shock was wrapping up, quite a lot of the team was worried that, all said and done, the game had turned out too difficult. There was even talk of putting in a Bone-style tutorial and automated hint system because there were worries that people would spend so much time stuck that they wouldn't be able to get to the end. Yes, I know, shocking I'm sure. We had done some group playtests, and we had compared our gut feeling about the puzzles against our gut feelings from The Great Cow Race, and what a lot of people's guts said was "this is surprisingly hard." And... it's not that these people are dumb. Most people at Telltale have played their fair share of adventure games, and have even worked on a few - some of "the greats" even. It's just really really really hard to tell looking out from inside. Needless to say, we know now that "too hard" isn't the most accurate descriptor for the first episode. Cool.
This takes us to the second issue, which is the blessing and the curse of having a real honest-to-god episodic release schedule. By the time Culture Shock came out, episodes 2 and 3 were pretty much written and designed. Some revisions were of course made to the designs over time, because the episodes were still in production, but there comes a time when you have to actually make the game. So, realistically, I imagine that your guys' perception of the first few episodes are going to be in the same vein as Culture Shock in many regards.
Does this bother me personally? Do I even think it's an issue at all? Nope! I think Culture Shock and Situation: Comedy are totally solid, enjoyable games, and are more hilarious and true to the source material than I could have hoped for. Before I started working here I covered Telltale on various gaming news sites for a couple years, and I spent much of my Internet-enabled youth maintaining a very persnickety news blog covering the exploits of Telltale and LucasArts and, well, I was dubious. Now that I've played two episodes, I am no longer dubious. I am very happy.
Will future episodes, the ones designed after Culture Shock came out, and after everyone on the team really got settled into making the games be "better?" I couldn't tell you, and I doubt anyone else here could either. They seem longer! They seem more difficult! Their locations and puzzles are definitely getting crazier and crazier, and many wishes from these forums will be granted (if only by chance), so that's all good, but beyond that, who knows? You just can't tell. Culture Shock came in easier than people were expecting, Situation: Comedy came in feeling a little more diverse and crazy (for the better) than people here worried it might. You do the best work you can and then hope that the game you think you're making is the game you're actually making (or better). After the dust has settled it's easy as hell to know what ruled beyond belief and what didn't come out exactly as you thought it might, but until that happens for all six episodes and we can sit back and observe the damage from afar, all anyone can do is keep steering towards "make it better and more awesome" (or as Kevin would say, "sucks less") and hope for the best. Everyone here is pleased as punch that the episodes are being so well received so far, and channeling that into the future episodes, and I think it will show.
If episode 3 is in the same range as situation comedy and culture shock as far as gameplay, well personally I'm gonna be bitterly disappointed. There's nothing I can do about it though, so I'm just gonna have to accept it and try and enjoy the remaining episodes.
No, they'll just get to see the exacty same moaning from the exact same 4 or 5 people.
Actually, they already waited 2 months between the release of the pilot and the monthlies, so to get what you want, they would probably have to have waited 4-6 months. I'm sure the overwhelming positive responses, reviews and awards that Telltale has gotten would say otherwise, and the close release schedule was probably the Gametap dealbreaker that helped pay for everything in the first place.
And as Jake said, even knowing what people think, it's really hard for them to judge what they are making until it gets out in the public:
It is very clear to me , as a player, that the people at telltale have put their heart and soul into this. That's why you get people saying that feel like they are rating a friend's exam when then they rate the game
Personaly, I love them. Yes, I finished both in one sitting but I was laughing and having a blast throughout. When the game ends I just eand up wishing there were more.
For only $8 Telltale serves up the finest appetizers ever. Too bad they tend to leave you hungry. Can't wait until I'm able to play the whole season.
Judging from the couple of episodes I've played so far, I'd guess 12-15 minimum?
Dude, c'mon - Theres been like, what, 4-5 episodic games released (professionally) so far? Sin Episodes, Half-Life 2, Bone, Sam & Max - maybe a couple of others I haven't heard about? (besides Half-Life 2 and Sin Episodes were both of a pretty decent length)
I figure it's $8.99 per episode - I'd guess about the same price as a cinema ticket? So you can spend a couple for hours watching a movie, or spend a few hours playing Sam & Max?
Besides, I don't think TellTale had the finances to develop a full title (and advertise, distribute, etc...) - Would you rather have a Sam & Max game via episodic access or no Sam & Max game at all?
For shame shadow9d9! For shame!
We're only $17.50 into that hypothetical $35 with just 3 episodes released, and the shortest reported times in total to complete those three episodes are about 5-6 hours, with the average time for all three episodes coming in around 8-9 hours. There are still three more full episodes to be released, and though it's tough to be sure, from the look of things, The Mole, The Mob, and The Meatball may end up the shortest episode in the season. It's looking like in the end people will average 12-15 hours for the whole thing, which is a longer game than you get out of many $40-50 'full-length' titles.
I rather a full game than multiple 1-2 hour games that seem to be getting shorter and are all considered easy.
I play adventure games for challenge too along with story and humor. I am just disappointed that the reviews keep showing shorter length, easy difficulty, and not many puzzles.
I refuse to go to movie theaters because the price is a ripoff. I have netflix. Additionally, tv shows are consistently of higher quality than movies(Battlestar Galactica/4400).
All 3 episodes have been labelled as easy and short, not good for potential buyers like me. Especially since they keep getting shorter. Just stating my opinion.
--Erwin
You can't possibly know what "most people" think about it considering a super small percentage post here and you do not know their sales numbers and have a comparison of how many people like me are holding out to see how the full season is.
I very nearly went to the hint board when I got stumped while we were sitting on Myra's couch at the end. But something that Max said at least gave me an idea of what my goal was.
Is this something that will be implemented in later episodes? I think it's a great alternative to straight-up online hint systems. Of course, players that don't want hints might feel it deters them from hearing all of the humorous dialog between Sam and Max...
So I guess, as with anything it's tough to come up with a good balance. I do sympathize with the developers.
Let me be more specific.
Most people i've talked to seem to like it.
Eh, for the past 4 months (going on 5), there has consistently been a Sam and Max game on Gametap's Top 5 most-played list. For some weeks, new Gametap releases like Silent Hill 2, Deus Ex, Toejam and Earl, Sudoku or Civilization 3 pop up on the top 5, but nothing has stayed on the Top 5 as long as Sam and Max have. Though I think from here on out, Myst Online will be on there forever since the very nature of that MMO adventure game consists being never ending and asking you to play it over and over.
But just think about it, these short games are being played by more people and more often than games like Deus Ex (a long multi-level FPS), Civilization 3 (long-ass, time-sucking strategy game), and high-end, long games like the Splinter Cell series, Silent Hill 2, and Beyond Good and Evil.
Telltale's low-budget, simple point-and click designed, short games are beating out a lot of pretty good titles. If that's not a testament to their success, I don't know what is.
More importantly, Gametap helped fund the development of these Sam and Max games, and--given their good reception from Gametap users--they are probably thrilled about how it's turned out.
Those games are all old games.. why would people be interested in them? I also have never and will never use gametap and neither will most people. I would download directly...
For the same reason people listen to music from past decades, old movies, books that aren't new releases, rerun TV shows...
That's not the point of the argument at all. The fact is that Gametap is a service focused mostly on old games--this is why I pointed out that these same very old games pop up on the top 5 for 1-4 weeks whenever Gametap releases them--which means people actually are interested in these old games, (I'm a subscriber, I follow the list constantly--the over 5 year old Civilization 3 was on there for about 5 weeks, Silent Hill 2 was on there for about 3 weeks, Toejam and Earl was on there for 2 weeks, Deus Ex was on there for 4 weeks, etc.. all right after Gametap released them) but none have had the staying power of Sam and Max, which has been on there for 4 months.
It is a short game, to be sure, but either people are playing it multiple times, people are spending a lot of time to play it, or tons of people are playing it (or some combination thereof) to warrant how these 1-3 hour games have managed to eke out a spot on the list for the past 4 months.
And it does matter what the people on Gametap think, or how good it is on Gametap, because Gametap is in effect Telltale's largest customer, shelling out all that money for early on.
Now who's claiming to know what "most" people think? I'm assuming that when you say most people will never use Gametap you're referring to the people who are choosing which avenue to specifically play Sam & Max, and I agree with that, but what about the people who are already Gametap subscribers and/or who subscribed oblivious to Sam & Max's existence and discovered it through the service? Do those people just not count? I'll bet the Gametap bigwigs would disagree.
New games beating old games is a surprise to you? I just don't get that.
I'm glad everyone in Telltale is very happy with the game, but I didn't see any reference in your post to what your customers think about it. Surely that should be the most important benchmark, especially considering there are people who have signed up for the whole season in advance. I'm not saying you should pay special attention to a few people moaning on a forum, but I would hope you're creating something people will want to buy!
I read the forums every day, and I also read all the reviews, and every thread I can find about the game on forums across the Internet - that's part of my job! I can't say what an impact the Internet's response has directly on the games (that's something that's pretty much impossible to quantify) but I know that everyone working on the games is aware of the positive and negative criticisms our products receive from the public.
Yeah, but the difficulty issue has been brought up everywhere. In reviews, forums and everywhere else. You know, it has always been like: "It´s a good and funny game, but..." and then some bitching about the difficulty or length. Sure, I totally understand that we shouldn´t expect a lengthy episode but at least the difficulty could be improved (on the other hand, if it was more difficult the game would also be longer even though it would have the same amount of puzzles and shit). Actually, as it seems to me, the people who think the difficulty level is ok are the minority (or maybe those dudes just keep their mouths shut). Anyway, let´s stick to the things that are observable: basically everyone say the games are too easy, some don´t mind, some do, but most say they wouldn´t mind a little challenge.
Correct me if I am wrong.
The discussion was about short games vs long games, and your implied belief that there is no way to tell how much people like these games. I said, look at www.gametap.com, which often does have old games beating Sam and Max games, but never lasting as long on the top 5.
The whole matter of new vs old is a side issue, and doesn't matter as much as the fact that being in the Top 5 pretty much insists that it is popular, which is the main thing.
Incidentally Gametap now has Episode 3 beating the new Myst Online game; This is actually a surprise to me since I expected Myst to stay on top forever; being an online adventure game, Myst is basically an endless game, which I expect a lot of people to play 2-3 hours a day. Episode 1 has also returned to the Top 5 as well (another surprise--though it looks like Dan Connor's theory holds true).
Hey, just looking at the first 5 reviews from the latest Review Roundup for Episode 3, 3 out of 5 of the first 5 (Softpedia, GotNext, and Frictionless Insight don't say anything about the puzzle's being too easy--Got Next asks for more mini-games ("They'd be particularly welcome in a puzzler like this, since being unable to find one item or trigger a discussion could get you stuck for a while. A way to continue enjoying the game while trying to figure out your dilemma would have been a great addition, and here's to hoping there's more than one time waster in future episodes"), and Frictionless Insight asks for more locations and longer length, but no mention of things being too easy.
So it's not actually brought up everywhere, but I'm sure they've heard the cries about difficulty level that are brought up a lot.
Hey man, don´t look at just the first five. If you´d looked at all 24 of them, you would have noticed that in 17 of them the easy puzzle difficulty was viewed more or less negatively. And in the rest of those reviews easiness was mentioned but the reviewer didn´t mind that much or found the easiness to be a positive thing.
So, it pretty much is actually brought up everywhere.
May i ask why Episode 3 is the shortest one so far? The reviews i've read so far also indicate that the puzzles will be even easier than before. If that is true this would be really dissapointing as i suspect most of the people like me are waiting for more depth and difficulty and not less and superficial entertainment.
It also would speak against what Emily, if i remember her right, once wrote: that you try to increase the difficulty from episode to episode. At least for the step from E1 to E2 this wasn't the case. Now if it's true that it's even lower... :O/
Anyway, I think that the puzzles so far is totally ok, but maybe that's becouse I'm a retard, I don't really know...
Agreed, why just the first 5? I haven't even heard of those sites...
It's not shorter because of any sort of malevolent move on our part, it just came in shorter than expected. Its still a solid, really entertaining episode. Many people just aren't finding it as long as #2. I wrote a pretty long post a few weeks ago with my own personal thoughts on the matter.
When it was pitched to the team, episode 3 sounded long - some said even too long. In practice, once everything was finished up and the game was finally all put together, it came out a little shorter than we thought! D'oh.
Fortunately, many people are saying that 3 is their favorite episode, with some going so far as to say its the funniest so far as well. And even more fortunately, I think episode 4 is going to top 3 in nearly every regard.
3 might be the hiccup on the ramping-things-up ladder in some regards (especially for those who are keen to quantify their gaming experiences solely on a dollars per hour scale, which to me seems to miss the point of art and entertainment), but its a very solid game with what I think is some of the tightest writing and highest production values in a Telltale title so far, and I think you'll like it a lot.
I think this was the plan (although Brendan's blog on the topic is a lot more authoratitive than I am, seeing as he's designing the games and all
Also, difficulty is subjective, and as Jake has said, no one's making the games easy or short on purpose. It's a fact of life that a game's difficulty or length can be really hard to judge until it's out there in the world and being played by hundreds of people.
Well, i never did an adventure but other games and so i know that things not always turn out the way they thought to be but regarding that you needed the feedback from Episode 1 i'm still a bit confused as there are such experienced designers behind the game that i thought it should have been a tiny little petty bit more obvious - i can't decrease the text size here, right?!
By the way were there invitations for gamers giving feedback at your place on the episodes before too?
Well, let's just wait how it turns out to be. After all i'm just a person who hates episodes and loves to play adventure games and still has the strong hope to play The Dig II before i die or even much much better be part of the dev team... ;O)
You could say the same thing about Full Throttle or Loom. Both of those games are pretty short (but are two of my favorite LucasArts adventures) and I imagine that neither of those games' designers (Tim Schafer and Brian Moriarty, both pretty seasoned adventure game makers) expected their games to be as short as they ended up being when all was said and done. It's not as easy to tell as you'd think.