Still think the epilogue ruined the entire game. Ellie should have never gone after Abby again. The only reason she did was because the plot demanded it.
Because that's what many think the game will be about. She's moving on, learning to love herself and see that her life does have meaning. So… moreme people need to hit rock bottom to begin the road to healing again. Main point though, is that it wouldn't make sense (also pacing wise) for her to reunite with Dina at the end, because it takes away from the idea that Ellie is going wherever the wind takes her.
I'm getting annoyed seeing people say "Joel shouldn't have trusted Abby's group" and "5 years in a safe community doesn't make a 20-year-hardened survivor go soft" while also saying that "Abby was saved by Joel and doesn't show the least bit of remorse or doubt about Joel's character".
Well, you said it yourself, folks. If you think that 5 years of peace can't change someone's 20-year routine, then 20 minutes of having your life saved can't change 4 years of vengeance for your father's killer.
Didn't respond to this before, but I don't know how
Jordan isn't the leader and Owen got Mel pregnant.
Oh yeah. Was Jordan the guy who got his face slashed or the guy who tried to kill Dina?
Everything Abby witnessed was find the corpse of her father and that's it.
Well, there's also the slaughter of nearly every other Firefly in the building including Marlene.
Jerry and Marlene seemed to have a close friendship, and with Abby hanging around the hospital with him (also being trained with a gun) I'm sure she'd have had other friends or aquantances she knew from the Fireflies that were killed there.
She's got too much deep-seated anger to care about whether Joel is a good person or not, regardless of whether he saved her, so she takes her chance to lure him straight to their group to murder him under the pretense of safety from the storm and the massive horde.
Didn't respond to this before, but I don't know how
Jordan isn't the leader and Owen got Mel pregnant.
Oh yeah. Was Jordan the guy who got his face slashed or the guy who tried to kill Dina?
So as I reach what is clearly gonna be the last two stretches or so, Im gonna talk a bit about last night
So Abby predicts that Owen must be hanging around the fairground since it was his favorite hangout when off duty or rather skipping training. And after some searching, she finds him in the boat where a family once stayed and finds out what happened, as well as his plan going forward.
Traveling to a place signifying a previous truce called Martyr's Point for supplies, Abby gets captured by the Scars, though not before tearing Ms. Trenchbull's ear off. She is then dragged into the night forest to experience what Ellie witnessed in the Seraphite's introduction,in a sequence that is raw and unsettling in its cultist atmosphere. She is only propped up to eventually be hanged and the acolyte(who I assumed was the axe wielder, but is probably who knocked her out) stops short of poking her inguinal area with her knife when two of her followers bring forth a girl named Yara, one half of an "apostate" duo. The leader orders that they "clip her wings"(and yes I had a hard time looking), but they only get half way when the two get arrowed and she draws a pistol like a hypocrite to try and fend off the marksman before getting thigh choked by Abby and an axe in the brow from the Yara. After nearly getting hung as a realistic result, Abby is cut down on Yara's vouching and the trio flee from attracted "demons" to find a safe place for the siblings to recover before heading back.
Feeling guilty for leaving them alone(and nothing else), Abby goes back to retrieve the two and brings them to Owen, now joined by Mel and [her dog], for medical treatment. Finding that Yara has compartment syndrome, Abby teams up with widest case of gender confusion in a time Lev to get her medical supplies for surgery as quickly as possible. After an informative and honestly fun character building adventure up a friggin skyscraper, Abby finally reaches the hospital, which is currently being cleared out on Nora's supervision(prior to Ellie's arrival) and soon gets arrested for claiming to be on a mission for Isaac when she's been missing for more than a day. After escaping to the lower floors of the place where the world ended and dealing with an amalgam of long forgotten infected(and it's stalker breakaway), she and Lev escape via boat to help Yara.
With Yara's surgery going through successfully, trouble in exile arises with Mel breaking ties with Abby for quite literally screwing her over and Lev takes off for the Scar Island in an attempt to rescue their mother before escaping to friggin California, so Abby and the now one armed Yara head off to stop him from getting himself killed. Splitting up due to sudden gunfire in what is obstensibly Seraphite territory, Abby reunites with sole surviving Manny as the two navigate their way to deal with a trespasser who took out all but two of his squad(if even that). Thanks to Yara showing once again how hardheaded kids can occasionally save your life, Abby shakes off a terrifying realization about the sniper who took an involuntary dive in order to take a speed boat to the Island of the Scars.
So with the synopsis out of the way, let's hit on the characters again starting with Abby. So this is very much a case where I'm enjoying the story being told around the character with less for the character herself: she's gotten better here, especially with her interactions with Lev, but Abby by herself is kinda eh. Like am I having trouble following this new story? No, I'm pretty consistently with it. Do I like or rather feel bad for her? Well, for the slightly greater part, no. Again, I'm into the action and peril and stuff just fine, but as I'll probably touch on when I get to the sniper, I was oddly numb when she's in the prize corner closet thing having hints of PTSD(?) with blood on her face. And when Owen is briefly being a serious brand of sarcastic about what it'll take to "grow up" and Mel is going off on her after helping the kids, I can only muster a neutral "...Yeah."
It turns out that Owen, much like Jerry, really liked to play hooky after joining the WLFs, but was still able to carry on the actual fight well until an Old Scar who was clearly done fighting back finally caused him to bow out, which unfortunately resulted in Danny getting shot when he pulled a gun on Owen for passing the buck(what was he thinking?). Now Owen intends to desert to [place with Spanish name we later learn is on the opposite pole of the west], putting aside fighting over land he doesn't care about and even getting revenge for his own murdered family. We also have...follow up on the implications that he and Abby like liked each other in things like how he is hesitant to add her name to his & Mel's scoreboard when she beat the high score(which he probably erased once she left) and in her feeling woe-some about not having someone make her a stocking. Ignoring that the UST is now U-less, I guess I'll rule that Owen, while maybe not what I expected originally, is a pretty realized character here. I could use more about his family, how he came to join the Fireflies, and maybe another thing I'll touch on in a bit, but his place in things has been rather covered. Though the fact that a majority of this is posthumous narrative wise could have me in a complacent standpoint.
To touch on Mel for what we can, I kinda feel a little bad for her and/or can take her side. Her being a medic likely colors her viewpoint on things, which makes her willingness to step in as an actual part of the fight kinda notable. That rings twice over now in realizing that she likely did that while pregnant no less with the intention of mending the wound with her baby daddy/husband's ex-girlfriend who was cross with her for not being fully comfortable with how they ultimately handled Joel. Like I guess if you look at her from a writer's standpoint on how audiences tend to feel about characters like her in these plots, I suppose you could see a little cynicism, but veh. Point blank period, she gets it kinda bad throughout this story despite seeming like an all around good person and we know relatively little about her individual background too.
I'll talk about Yara's mother and the Seraphites together since while we learn a lot about the Scars, there also isn't much to say about them individually that won't be covered with Lev, who I'm sure is something of a breakout anyway. So the Seraphites originally arose around some female prophet who came, amassed a devout following, and then died, with the Scars of now operating under a twisted version of her teachings in their fights with the dick WLFs. This includes stuff like whistle commands to communicate, hanging soldiers in the forest while simultaneously slashing & gutting them, parents being taken care of by their children as well as being punished for their sins, and hints of a caste system that labels deviations as apostates. And among their ranks are an Ezio esque acolyte(are they the same character) who whips out a gun when her two flunkies are killed, a hammer wielding Hilda who begs for mercy when it's taken from her(mixed thought on that, but is she the same one who got her ear bitten off?), and the siblings' mother, who so devout enough as to not only potentially escape punishment for the apostates who took care of her, but is likely entirely willing to kill Lev if given the chance--lovely people these turned out to be. Also, special shout out to the Scar giving condolences to a brother with the exact same vocal performance, which made me think he was straight up talking to himself in the script.
Next, we tackle the duo of Lev and Yara, who in a surprising twist on how these sorta duos usually work from my vague recollection are not only siblings, but opposite gender as well--I think, which gets into a bit of confusion, not gonna lie. The two are being hunted by their own people because Lev was so eager to fight for them (alongside her...)that he shaved his head and the initially furious Yara decided to runaway with him--this was conversation back when Ellie first witnessed the Scars, was it not? She ended up getting captured not long after Abby and had her left arm bashed with a hammer in a difficult to watch moment, but had enough resilience to finish off the leader, vouch for saving Abby, lead the trio's escape, and after having her arm amputated by Mel to prevent gangrene, still goes along with Abby through a sewer system to save her brother from their mother. Okay, so with her general screentime mostly out of the way, let's talk about the apostate formerly known as Lily. First off, I really like Lev: I thought he was just gonna be the bald girl protector of Yara(who I felt would be the character we'd be primarily concerned about), but next thing you know, we're traveling up to, on, and inside a skyscraper while bringing more out of Abby than any other character has. It is so interesting yet natural that he is his young age(not sure how old, though) is so dedicated to his people as to end up infuriating them proving it and being very aware that they have corrupted the prophet's(Sera?) learnings, yet still earnestly carrying their beliefs as a regretful exile--a level of ideological depth that can only I think James from TFS attempted to get across. And again, he was just a entertaining yet [word for able to take seriously] character throughout the sidequest with things like asking what a pun is, admitting that he's cursing for the first time, acknowledging that the Seraphites are kinda selective in their stance on things like technology, asking what the awkwardness between Abby & Owen is about, and pointing out that he can see the hospital from up high in what could just as easily be a troll.
To actually address the elephant in the room as a separate point, show of hands: who assumed Lev was a girl at first only to be taken offguard when Abby refers to him as a little boy? And then one I was actually thinking about it, I noticed that his voice is very much a female and assumed it was just a not quite as good AJ situation. But then we get his backstory and I'm spinning around in circles: so he was once known as Lily and was to be the wife of some leader figure(probably not the one in the woods), but became an apostate when he "shaved his head[...]like one of the men." Okay.., what is he? Is he a girl who chose to be a boy or is this just the deal of one of those unclean faux-religious cliques? I know it's at least a metaphor for being trans, most likely, but fuck on the literal details.
Finally, the sniper and Manny. So this really speaks to just how different the story has gotten and yet reminds you of what fucking mess this is. I haven't talked much about Tommy since the beginning due to him not really being around or doing all that much--the flashback with the teens is probably the most we got of him. We still don't get much of him overall here for understandable reasons, but that said, man did the 30 second realization that it was he that took out Manny's squad hit and it hit me afterwards that probably could've killed Lev and Yara when they happened by. Now I knew he had to survive unscathed somehow, but that sequence was mostly effective for how minimal it was. That also unfortunately meant Manny, who I actually thought would die on the way to find Owen, wasn't getting off of that pier and that's a sad shame since Manny was a cool guy who had quite a bit behind him despite us learning little about him(was he even there when they found Joel?).
All that said, really enjoyed this part of the story compared to a lot of other stuff, but it's definitely gonna start going to shit as the boat ride to the Island forbodes.
It's such a shame that the biggest and best innovation this game did -- including a massive swath of Accessibility settings, helping visually/auditory/motor-impaired people complete the game is hugely overshadowed by the divisive reaction to the story, ridiculous death threats and whatever other controversy has sprouted from this game.
I really hope this game's push for more accessibility doesn't fade into obscurity.
Here's a nice video I found explaining some of how it works in action.
It's such a shame that the biggest and best innovation this game did -- including a massive swath of Accessibility settings, helping visuall… morey/auditory/motor-impaired people complete the game is hugely overshadowed by the divisive reaction to the story, ridiculous death threats and whatever other controversy has sprouted from this game.
I really hope this game's push for more accessibility doesn't fade into obscurity.
Here's a nice video I found explaining some of how it works in action.
I'll take that as a good thing since he's not in it very long at all.
Probably should've just had the other guy vouch for keeping her ali… moreve instead before Dina shoots him.
@Ghetsis The guy who tried to kill Dina. I don't know why he didn't just shoot her.
Wait, then who wanted to kill Ellie in the flashback? I could've sworn I heard Owen call him Jordan.
@AronDracula It must be so convenient that he only had like 2-3 bullets. He could have easily just used Nick's gun or Ellie's switchblade.
Nick?
I'll take that as a good thing since he's not in it very long at all.
Probably should've just had the other guy vouch for keeping her ali… moreve instead before Dina shoots him.
@Ghetsis The guy who tried to kill Dina. I don't know why he didn't just shoot her.
Wait, then who wanted to kill Ellie in the flashback? I could've sworn I heard Owen call him Jordan.
@AronDracula It must be so convenient that he only had like 2-3 bullets. He could have easily just used Nick's gun or Ellie's switchblade.
Nick?
This footage was recorded a few weeks ago and I do admit that my tone in this video made me cringe a little bit. It was kind of annoying for me to edit this through. My opinion changed a small bit but I still stand by saying that this game was a huge disappointment.
I wish I checked out some bonuses of this game, like the accessibilities, while recording to see what I think of them but it was 3-4 AM when I finished the game and had to go to sleep at that time.
This footage was recorded a few weeks ago and I do admit that my tone in this video made me cringe a little bit. It was kind of annoying for… more me to edit this through. My opinion changed a small bit but I still stand by saying that this game was a huge disappointment.
I wish I checked out some bonuses of this game, like the accessibilities, while recording to see what I think of them but it was 3-4 AM when I finished the game and had to go to sleep at that time.
Yeah, but I still think ANF is way worse because it doesn't offer anything gameplay wise. Although I would say that Javier Garcia was a much better protagonist than Abby.
So, onto the final set of rounds for the end of the game, with less synopsis and more just miscellaneous thoughts.
So Abby and Yara arrive to [the unnamed] island, home of the Seraphites, where upon witnessing the latter say a brief prayer to the prophet, Abby quotes her father's old saying "When lost in the darkness, look for the light"--one of the many sayings throughout this story that I admittedly overlooked. Anyway, while small & insignificant enough to not show up on a map, the island is actually quite large enough to require a full trek across due to the invading WLFs executing Isaac's plan. We learn from Yara that there are only a thousand of their people left, half of which are trained for combat though most of the others will fight if need be. We also see that they are indeed more attuned to using firearms than they generally do on the battle field, with what's at stake entirely justifying it; what isn't justified of course is how at least one of them, a large dark skinned wielding an battleaxe, still go out of their way to attack Lev on sight when, again, the boy was very much willing to fight for them. Indeed, the entire escape from the island sees both sides attacking Abby, forcing her to defend herself against her former comrades and the siblings' people. Ultimately, it's unknown whether their people survive the siege or not, though it's very likely no one truly won that night.
Once the two finally arrive at the siblings' former home, they find Yara and Lev's mother as expected...except already dead. Clearly traumatized with what happened, Lev explains that he attempted to convince their mother, but she just continued to yell at him and even chased him in outrage. This ended with her hitting her head on the table when Lev shoved her in self-defense, though I did briefly have to question why it looks like she's bleeding quite a bit from her neck(as an aside, I noticed that Abby in some instances doesn't stab people and just chokes em out--is that meant to suffocate them quietly or just knock them out?) Nonetheless, the siblings reconcile and agree to get off of the burning isle...until Yara is shot/stabbed dead by a WLF soldier, who Abby understandably beats down no sooner than him recognizing her.
Low key, Yara was death flagged not far from her surgery, either due to Lev running away in the first place or from how, like Mel, we learn or get relatively little about her individually. I was kinda hoping she'd somehow be spared, what with already being mutilated and Lev already having been traumatized with having to kill his mother; I'm honestly having a hard time thinking of a reason why she had to die there narratively since you could just as easily have the soldier about to make the kill when Abby grabs him, they don't encounter an old ally of hers to give her choices some dramatic resonance, and it's not like Lev does much past that point that she could've got in the way of. Either way, it was pretty lame for her to just get off'd and I don't understand why would they let her run off that way with one arm & a lot of fatigue.
Speaking of major characters who could've had more and just gets killed, what a waste Isaac was--Who even shot him, btw? This codger was only in two scenes despite his status and looking at him as a villain, I'm kinda not sure why TvTropes called him a Complete Monster(I haven't read most of that for spoilers, of course). Sure, you get the vibe he's way over it & all and threatening to shoot Abby if she doesn't move out of the way of "that" is one of the shittiest moves someone can make(ahem), but its honestly not like the other stuff we see him contemplate is really all that unfathomable. And most of Abby's campaign goes to show that the Seraphites are really no better than them despite what you might've thought up till that possible point--with or without their lack of a distinct leader. If anything, the WLF vs Seraphite conflict kinda feels like an extension of Ellie's crusade, where both sides are just compromising their beliefs and concerns in the name of killing the other guy no matter what.
So what I thought was the final act of the game is Abby & Lev finding the carnage at the Fairground and then going after Tommy & Ellie at the cinema. I honestly forgot Ellie dropping the map would be the reason Abby was able to home in on them so quick was one of the cleverer things about the way the story was framed and the two have to enter a window due to the front door indeed remaining blocked by the chair. Its kinda like GTA IV and V, where the other playable characters just seem to pop in and out of specific moments as needed until you possibly get to play as them, in which case you get to see exactly how they manged to do what they did.The infiltration gets further props due to Abby briefly looking over the balcony of a different theater, where she otherwise would've surely picked off Ellie and Jesse, before walking around to restrain Tommy at the snack bar. The moment this would logically lead to(and one a few people thought would happen in ANF, as I recall) is a boss fight against none other than Ellie herself, easily the highlight of this last stretch. I kinda had a minor laugh in the obvious realization that, yeah, Ellie would get curb stomped by this bitch in a straight fight...which is exactly why they have Ellie opt to briefly run until she can force a switch in approach before the actual battle can begin. It's also interesting how, at least from what I can tell, you can't reliably use Listen Mode to see where she is and have to rely almost solely on sound to know where she is and the battle in general relies on stealth taking advantage in the environment, fighting dirty to do turn the tide, one fake out tactic from Ellie, and the fact that Ellie is sorta armed to the teeth(and with them too) to work.
Still, Abby naturally manages to break Ellie's arm after a pretty brutal sequence of grapples wears both of them down and is in the process of one again beating her into the ground when Dina intervenes, only to be arrow'd through the shoulder and have her own head slammed into the floor before Abby responds to Ellie's plea that she's pregnant by preparing to slit her throat. I honestly thought that was gonna be it for Dina, who all but disappeared after Ellie killed Owen and Mel, and my eyelids were ready for the moment Aron quoted came up when The Goat simply called Abby's name, which fortunately causes her to reconsider killing someone [else] who has nothing to do with their conflict and somewhat unfortunately leave telling Ellie that she never wants to see her again.... Gotta say that I was both a tad elated and very much worried that Lev came along for what appeared to be the completion of the cycle. On one hand he has a right to be there after the few people on Abby's side who also saved his sister; on the other, it's a conflict he has no connection with and he could very well join Manny in getting killed over Abby's shit. Thankfully, he isn't involved much and what he does do is minor but important garnish--a cool side character doing cool side character things, with his own unique elements not being forgotten. This involves him being ordered to keep his bow trained on Tommy from a different angle before Abby before him onto the floor and leads to a smaller touch in how Lev is completely out of Ellie's line of sight, which while perhaps a bit unnecessary still a decent job at bridging the perspectives. And he stays out of the fight proper until Dina intervenes at the very end, in which case he intervenes twice to keep the two from killing each other.
So we're actually gonna talk about almost wasted character Tommy again because, man oh man, it's kinda necessary and I feel some kinda way bout that. So Tommy is technically the one to kick off the whole Revenge for Joel storyline in the first place, with his stealing a horse and some weapons putting Jackson on lockdown and forcing Ellie & Dina to have to go through Maria in order to follow. And throughout the proceedings of the plot, he was going around hunting, torturing, & killing any WLF he could get his hands on in order to track down the Seattle 6 and we learned before that was necessary that he used to do quite his share of intense stuff back when he too was a Firefly, where he honed his particular technique in the first place. This culminated in him killing most of Manny's squad(including Manny himself) before getting dunked by Abby & Yara, then showing up too late to stop Ellie from fucking up their objective ultimately getting the smarter Jesse & seemingly himself killed. Though having him not remark how Abby got a literal child involved was a minor wasted opportunity in a moral sense(on both ends, as I'm about to get to), I'll instead be more interested in asking how did he NOT die from getting shot in the neck for stopping Abby from shooting Ellie? Well, regardless of whatever explanation there is, he unfortunately shows up alive and well to intentionally act as one last call to action...
So after getting their shit wrecked among a plethora of other repercussions, Ellie retired out to the country on a farm where she and Dina care for with Jesse's super fat-faced baby(not that that's bad, he's still a precious gift), dance to hokey hoe-down records, raise a flock of sheep, and have the occasional PTSD episode while thankfully not hurting little JJ(who's exact name is probably uncomfortable either way). After returning home from a long hunt, they have company in the form of NephewUncle Tommy, who is separated from Maria for obvious reasons, but says he has good news: a woman built like an ox and a kid with scares along his face were sighted on by one of his contacts and this is their chance to finish this. Saving that rant for later, let's once again focus on what Thomas here is doing: he is basically pressuring Ellie into STILL going after Abby (and quite possibly Lev, from whom he took an Arrow to the Knee) because "he can't and she made him a promise." More so than with Mel, I'm totally with Dina on telling him to get along and not come back with that shit, especially with what happened to ALL of them the last time. Like, I understand it was his brother and he led the original charge, but still, what the fuck Tommy? Either fight your own goddamn battles or just accept that you lost and fuck off with at least dozens of WLFs dead by your hand to tide you over. Of course, because she can't eat, sleep, or hear things drop apparently and I guess her life with Dina isn't good enough, Ellie chooses to walk out and head to Catalina Island.
Before I go off any further, let's hit on the last few flashbacks now that Ellie is playable again. I was surprised to see that rodeo scene for early marketing was in the game after all, given it's slightly higher production value. I'll at least give this scene some credit in that it's structurally one last time to see many of Ellie's allies in Jackson make one last reappearance before the events of the game, for better or worse. This includes Seth, who as we already know told Dina to tone it down since it's a family event and then called her a dyke when she snipes back; remind me, was this part in that old teaser or was it cut out for promotional sake and/or added later? Anyway, the point of this flashback and the one near the actual ending is to resolve how Ellie felt about Joel leading up to his death, confessing that she feels like he took away her chance to have her life mean something. Which was necessary and from a storytelling standpoint, you needed that exact moment to be the last real note, but alas it could've just been placed another 40 minutes or so earlier in ending the game more naturally. Skipping ahead to the ending because I honestly don't have anything to say, she returns to an empty house to play guitar, have that one last flashback and then leave it behind to head off to what I'm "sure" is Last of Us Part III.
To quickly summarize the final act(and acknowledge its villains since I doubt anyone's talking about it), Abby & Lev use the radio in an old basement to contact the Fireflies and get captured by a group called the Rattlers on their way out. Straight way, we learn next to nothing about these guys other than their capturing people for some reason and even keeping infected as pets, as well as being gorked enough to loss it when laughed at, threaten each other over minor setbacks, and give conflicting orders when under attack--so if the WLFs can be likened to the Delta(which I only now realize I didn't say), let's call these guy's A [discount] New Frontier: California Edition. Some time later, Ellie tries her hand at being clever by invoking irony in using Abby's map(which is on what I guess is her sailboat) to track the two and ends up getting strung up & bleeding from impalement on some large thorn I guess; becoming delusional from blood rushing to her head and being lost, she is eventually cut down by the group called The Ratters and after taking advantage of strung up a Clicker(which was totally there the whole time, we promise) to take care of one guy, she uses his carbine to inadvertently intimidate The Dawg into giving her directions before killing him anyway. She then infiltrates the Rattler's hideout, causing riot by freeing the prisoners, who stop short of gunning her down for being bit to inform her that Abby & Lev were hung from the pillars for trying to escape. This leads to the final confrontation between Ellie and Abby, in the somewhat unusual location that is the tiding shoreline between some motorboats. Except this time, Abby has evidently been starved enough to have some bulk waste away, which means she's literally forced on the receiving end of a beat down that has her looking & nearly dying like Jane and then finally in the process of being drowned...before Ellie lets her go and escape on a boat with Lev.
Boy, is the real finale of the game not only rather unnecessary, but it's based on a combination for stupidity and for lack of a worse word, dickheadedness. First off, let's get it out of the way that Abby realistically should've killed Ellie since she actually deserves it(though you could argue poor Jesse was the price) and Ellie should've just took the loss as well as accept that she got Jesse killed & nearly lost his family too. Now granted, I'm sure they were just taking care to reach the end of the game with something of an upturn for Ellie after karma arguably inverted on her and an Ellie & Abby vs Isaac/Rattler-Leader & each other conflict might've been a bit much for what I guess is still being personal, but still. Second, Abby and Lev's quest to find the remaining Fireflies(which I barely recalled being suggested, even forgetting it was Owen; there are two hundred of them and growing, btw) could've just been a DLC or even a hook for another game. As I'll get to when talking about our protagonists(because I refuse to call either a heroine), it's quite frankly another much more interesting plotline that deserved way more time than being squeezed in as what might as well be an excuse plot for a FOURTH act to this already long af story. Third, I'm honestly struggling to justify talking about what happens, as it and the villains sorta holding it together are kinda pointless; it just makes me reiterate how this could easily have been the focus of another game, leaving this one to fucking end on a better note. And finally, despite what I among many would have thought, Ellie still doesn't kill Abby at the last second and lets her sail with Lev while she sulks in the tide, so it really is a fuckin waste of time. What was the point?
Bringing it all home because I'm tired, let's hit on both of our playable characters & protagonists, Ellie Williams and Abigail Anderson...and how I didn't like either of them. To refresh what I said about Ellie back in my first impression, I guess I liked her enough from what I saw of the first game, regardless of whether she's not an amazing character, but that naturally does little to nothing for me here. She spends nearly this entire game being a dead acting, feckless monomaniac out on a not very engaging revenge quest that gets somewhat more enjoyable/respectable characters killed/hurt and the payoff to it all is dragged out on top not really adding up to anything beyond making her look uselessly selfish. Outside from being a pretty good boss fight, the fact of the matter is she did all that, got her ass kicked, and throwaway a chance to live in peace so she can finish the job--NOT! Yeah, after threatening Lev's life to make Abby fight to the death and losing two fingers in the process, she backs off of killing her and returns to an empty home where we effectively confirm that this was all about satiating her ego by proving her life means something. Yeah, her arc, while not awful in concept and even in its vague outline, sucked--so much so that the game just gets rid of her for most of the second half to tell something resembling an actual story. I don't know what they're gonna do for Part III if it gets greenlight cohesively, but here's hoping she/it's better than this.
And finally we get the fake out antagonist turned surprise main character, Abby Anderson, who is the better of the two with context, but not by much when it comes to the content of her character. You see, "Sexy Abby" here bears the honor/criticism of backporting her story into being nearly the entire second half a sequel where she is introduced killing the original main character and ending up at the [eventual] top of the third playable character's shitlist. Which is fine and all if you don't really hold that up as important, but then we get to the fact that Abby isn't as well characterized as Ellie originally was or maybe even as Joel: she definitely has the better story [of this sequel], but it's very much everything around her that makes it good. Because unfortunately, I don't think we really get much chance to know who Abby herself is beyond all the things we see her do with the other characters as the greater story has effectively been kicked off. The freshest point was get is the interquel flashbacks with the final parts of the first game, where she's already a teenager with hints of her vague strong & serious shtick still present and her feelings with Owen being alluded to during her conversation with Jerry--the most we get are her being more practical minded than her bunny ears wearing dad, maybe a hint that she underwent similar education as Ellie, her saying she'd want him to go through with the operation if she was the one who was immune. But we don't really get anything else about her personal life/interests before finding her dad dead and it's straight into being a big buff soldier from then on. And while she gets to be in more enjoyable scenes than Ellie, I can really only recall a few where I was at least partly about her. And because she's a mirror for Ellie herself in this specific story, she also has semblances of the "bringing my shit onto the people around me and getting them killed" going for her: special mention to the rather telling way the scene at the Aquarium was framed, where she is way more upset by Owen's death than the pregnant Mel, whom she only sorta tries to avenge as an afterthought when she learns Dina is also pregnant.
This was kinda meandering and went on a little while longer than it probably should have. You can go to town on whether it's worse than the beginning of the game if you want.
Overall, The Last of Us Part 2 is probably at least a 60% or something on some meaningless scale. There's some okay things and a few good things, but those are mixed in with some bad things and an overall questionable vision.
I mean, yeah. Ammo is typically pretty scarce in the apocalypse, so I don't find that so hard to believe. But yeah, he could have very easily used Nick's gun or Ellie's switchblade.
Okay, I've since do some reading on this and confirmed the situation: Manny was actually the spanish guy who spit on Joel & vouched for killing Ellie when he realized she'd come after them and Jordan is indeed the one who got his face cut & nearly did kill her, only to later decide to question her.
Has anyone talked about the Seattle crew in depth yet, cause hmm?
Anyway, now that I'm up to date on the story and it's gotten quiet around here, time for a reply cluster!
I'm only going as far back as when the game was first being released on page 30 or so and I got halfway through pg 32 when a post from Poogers made me stop. That can be read later, but for now, I'm gonna do some quick responses:
@DeliciousDeku .Although, I did like one scene. The only way I could describe it without spoiling it is, they gave Ellie a really badass moment where they make her look so cool... But, they also make her super smug in that scene.
What scene was this, if you can remember?
@DabigRG Warning: possible accidental spoilers from what sounds like an ignorant weeb
So Ellie turns into a big buff chick with hair that flows like candle smoke in order to punch an ambiguous villain who was sorta being redeemed to death?
I forgot I made this reference. It's not completely out of the way, either.
@AChicken
Some find the characters likeable, some find them all boring.
I'm sure there are people who would say they're one in the same.
Some like the first half of the game, dislike the second, some feel the complete opposite.
I guess I'm complete opposite, depending one what parts you're using as cutoffs.
Even here, apparently the ending might suck? Yikes.
I'd say the ending by itself is alright, but I think
@MetallicaRules
2 hours in, and already, fuck this game. Like no joke, fuck it so hard in the asshole it fucking bleeds. A New Frontier, congratulations, you’re not the worst anymore, there’s a new king in town.
And while I’m at it, fuck the marketing/advertising too. They lied to us, so fucking much, I feel more insulted by that than anything.
Oh geez...
I'm not sure that's wrong.
@Ghetsis
There are a lot of parts that I like and think can work in this shitty universe, and there's a lot of parts that are just executed badly. There are also a few plotholes, depending on how you look at it. I also want to like the ending, but it's more bad than it is good. The context made it worse lol.
Mind giving some examples of each?
One more thing, I'm confused at Sony for allowing Druckmann to do this. Most of their narrative games are decided on by the team, but this seems more like one man's vision, definitely more interesting but obviously it's a terrible idea because it'll be divisive and it's just not worth the backlash.
Actually, I think he was just the head producer or something like that and there were two writers who did the story proper.
@Everyone_Deserve_Better
The gameplay is good. The story is a 50/50. Some parts are actually good, while others seem to have been written thinking: What would make fans piss off and feel disgusted?
MID GAME SPOILERS
Like Abby's sex scene. They really thought somebody wanted to see that. Ugg.
So far I dont think the story is too horrible but its really not that compelling either. There are 2 things that happened that I really dont like if its just not going to expanded on. One of those Im not expecting to happen until later, but one of them really should have been said by now which makes me think its just overlooked which is disappointing. If the other thing that happened is also just forgotten about (which I dont think it will be simply because it feels too intentional for it not to be followed up later in a meaningful way for the character) then honestly this game is going to have some really flat and boring characters who have one single note.
People are saying this game is too dark and depressing for no reason and the violence is gratuitous and I'm just thinking "do y'all remember TWD S2?" honestly though I was right, that's what it feels like. But much much worse.
Hey, at least TWD had Luke, Alvin, Walter, Sarita, Reggie, Bonnie, Mike, and initially Sarah to keep things up and/or grounded.
This game has, like, a third of that at best. Granted, it technically has a smaller cast, but still.
When Ellie gets to Nora and is about to "get her to talk" we see none of it. If I'm reading the game correctly, the whole point is that revenge is a never ending cycle that just keeps on torturing everyone that allows themselves to get consumed by it, so I don't get why the game completely omits Ellie torturing this woman in order to fulfill her need for vengeance. If the point is to show us that what Ellie doing is terrible, that maybe she's going too far and whatnot, why would they cover the nasty horrid violence that comes as a direct product of her revenge and then try to get us to sympathize with her trauma over what she just did? We saw none of it! Just blood spatter and then a cut.
That's part of why I was wondering if Ellie was lying about her telling her anything.
@Poogers555
however I will post one of them in a spoiler because at this point Im guessing its not going to be acknowledged:
What happened to Jesse and Dina before the Joel death? They were all together, how come when we cut back after they left together Ellie is by herself? Then after he dies then they come in? I thought they might say something about getting separated and Ellie went too far ahead but nothing like that. I get that they wanted Ellie to be alone when it happens but considering its also pointed out there was no look outs its really confusing why they were not together and they seemingly got there after Abby and crew all bailed out.
That's a very good question. Jesse in particular doesn't appear again until he surprises Ellie not long after the Seraphites' introduction.
Honestly, its not like it would've taken much to justify it: Dina would've been concerned about Ellie first & foremost and Jesse would've been smart enough not to do more than maybe fire a few shots at the WLFs behind cover as they make a break for it. With Ellie getting knocked out, you either covered ended the scene with those two arriving or, idk, simply had us interact with different people following Joel's burial and have use learn this from them then.
Hell, he probably could've hit or even killed one of the more disposable members and that's how they end up with a lead on how to find them.
@AChicken
But really, unless it's because I'm missing something (I stopped just as I saw Joel's grave) things seem ok. Abby and her group seem to have some vendetta against Joel and are hunting him (maybe Eugene tipped them off, but we know he's Ex-Firefly I'm pretty sure).
Eugene was Tommy's old partner, right? Interesting thought.
Joel was a bad dude. He's someone who was clinging onto his humanity and who can clearly settle down with the right people, (and after 4 years at Jackson he certainly let his guard down) but this guy massacred a whole bunch of Fireflies at their main base including their leader, stole their chance at a cure and he gets off Scott-free? This is the ultimate repercussion to that action.
You know something that I didn't think of until it was suggested: What if Abby or I guess Nora was Marlene's daughter?
The misleading advertising is pretty dissapointing though given that we had no indication that they'd fabricate scenes for a trailer (whereas with things like the recent Avengers it was expected).
Can ya'll remind me what those trailers involved again? I wasn't really paying that much attention and they were spaced apart.
@MichaelBP
And lmao at it being worse than ANF, I'm only 9 hours in but so far I haven't seen anything that made me think this worse than ANF's trainwreck of a story about a guy cucking his brother
Funny you say that, as I kinda thought of ANF during the parts with Mel and very briefly with Dina.
@iFoRias
I finished the game i really liked it,the gameplay is so much better than the first game like fuck way way better thank god for that,and the game's gorgeous
Also Spoilers down below
I know a lot of people got angry when Joel died and that's fair but there's a reason for why that happens this isn't like Kenny or Jane's death where they die in the most retarded ways and gets forgotten immediately after,they didn't forget about Joel and Ellie's bond and Joel lying to Ellie (which was a pretty big deal) so i was fine with it.
Overall i think it was a good sequel they took a lot of risks and i respect that and i enjoyed it way more than i thought i would tbh.
At the very least, his death is for keeps and actually a justifiably critical part of the plot.
The ending really only works if there's a Part 3 that wraps things up and comes full-circle. Because the mistreatment of all these characters isn't right, like Tommy at the end how he becomes an asshole who sends Ellie to Abby alone, how is he even alive,
That was essentially my thought as well.
and how is Jesse dead,
Because he got shot in the side of the head. Which granted, doesn't look that bad from what we briefly see, but then Tommy should definitely be with him.
Though I suppose you can also raise an eyebrow at the whole "look at what a happy family Ellie and Dina are" thing if you want.
and Lev only exists to suffer because he's trans, that's not how you write trans characters,
Oof. Well, there that is.
Abby's love triangle is so lame, halfway through the game just turns into a wild goose-chase with each main character leaving the other alive.
Yeah, that stuff barely had a chance to register because the game inadvertently makes it easy for you to not care or stop giving a shit.
Overall it's not that bad, I don't really care if it's an on-the-nose revenge story because as long as the characters are good the story can work just like the first game, The themes of the game are perspectives and forgiveness and above all else it's Ellie's coming-of-age story where she lets go of Joel and moves on into the unknown. Like every character who has multiple lines of dialogue comes out at the end considerably worse, everyone suffers because a few people made bad choices. As long as Part 3 is good then this can somewhat work.
but Abby's characters are just boring so it's hard to become attached.
Oh? I mean, I'm not really disagreeing, it's just an peculiar distinction.
@iFoRias I finished the game i really liked it,the gameplay is so much better than the first game like fuck way way better thank god for that,and the… more
(Note to self: figure out what this was about and come back to it)
@GhetsisGhetsis
Man, this game does respect Joel. He's the best character in the game by far.
You're probably right... later killing a pregnant woman was horrifying enough.
Can we all agree Ellie is really shortsighted in this? Like, almost infuriatingly so?
@Ghetsis
I honestly didn't like the first game much (more for gameplay reasons than story reasons), but it's interesting to see similar issues on executing on their themes for both games. This game almost feels like a response to "Nathan Drake is a mass murderer" ludonarrative dissonance critiques, but doesn't do anything to solve the core problem of what that critique was about.I think the setting and tone for this series really just works to the detriment of its story, and that ND still struggles to meaningfully account for or integrate its gameplay into its storytelling.
Oh really now?
Also the game's story only works if the fireflies would have made a vaccine, but the first game makes it unclear, so it doesn't work. Similiarly to the argument of "why did they leave Ellie alive?" well they didn't expect blowback, but hey ho, Joel and Ellie didn't die on their journey in the first game, if only Abby knew how powerful vidya-game characters are.
Yeah, I was about to ask: wasn't there something in the first game about several failed extractions before they got to Ellie?
I just love how Jesse makes it to Ellie without dying,
I actually didn't mind that, though I probably would've questioned it if there weren't hints that he was a bit hurt, as well as the obvious.
or how Dina goes with Ellie even though she suspects she could be pregnant.
Oh, Dina, Dina, Dina...I was kinda on and off with her at times.
Or how 'fade to black' is used after the theater ambush to heal our characters,
or how, ignoring the fact that switching primarily to Abby when you do is terrible because it happens on a cliffhanger with Ellie and then it takes MANY MANY MANY HOURS to get to that point...
Yeah, this really was put together in such a baffling way considering the overly long runtime and the basic stuff that happens.
Abby knows these people offed Owen and Mel. She has killed dozens of people in the hours before this (video games!). She had previously left Ellie alive during their stop in Jackson which can be directly attributed to the deaths of Owen and Mel. Her sparing Ellie because fucking Lev said so...?! In an Apocalyptic setting where mercy is constantly shown, not told, but shown, to be a mistake?!
Oh no, it's better than that, mate:
Lev only intervened because she was about to kill Dina, who as far as she knew had nothing to do with anything on top of being pregnant. He said nothing about Ellie and almost certainly wouldn't have minded if Abby just stuck to the plan considering all that's happened.
Abby just called it off entirely because...Mel, I guess.
@Poogers555
Well Im very close to beating the game now and I probably will finish it tonight but uh...
I feel like they are actually going to try and pull a Breaking Bad Finale situation with Ellie and Abby with whoever these new people are who just randomly show up last minute. Just you know- minus the part where Abby and Ellie were ever friends.
I never watched Breaking Bad, but yeah, I talked "extensively" about the validity of the Rattlers and especially the fourth act in general.
Kinda hoping this wraps up somewhat satisfying because honestly I feel the biggest issue with this games story is how damn boring and stretched out it is. It feels like it takes forever to move the plot anywhere and when it does it feels like it moved an inch. (which really sucks because there are 100% moments in here I like a lot, but it takes forever to reach them.)
True dat.
@AronDracula
The biggest question is: why did Neil Druckmann put so much money on a game with a story which he knew a lot of people would hate?
...Polishing a turd till it blinds ya?
@AChicken
Definitely confused about this. Clearly the decisions made were going to be looked down upon by some people -- especially if you're very fond of Joel (as practically every TLOU player is) -- but I wonder.. Did they really expect this much backlash??
Joel did say go in with an open mind. Not sure that pun really works, but whatever floats ya'll boat
There's also the question that Neil says he's undecided on if he wants to make a Part III next.
Given the amount of divisiveness this game has brought, continuing this story seems like a terrible idea for Naughty Dog. I don't think it would be right to make a Part 3 especially when so many are dismissing this game as a sequel.
The Last Of Us has quickly fallen into a cult-hit hole with its sequel, and a possible third game is unlikely to make as much profit as the first or second entries given how this one's been received (and especially with how the public now views Neil's/Naughty Dog's credibility).
Currently, I think it's still a pretty good game, sitting at maybe a 7 for me (but really, I JUST got into the Seattle open area) but it's definitely a step down from the tightly told, tightly paced, engaging first game.
He'd better at least take some notes and pitch them to the beta team before Naughty Dog cuts his ass.
I've got to admit that this is a technical marvel though. The traversal improvements are really fun and the environments and sound design are gorgeous. I especially love how they brought over the open level design from Uncharted Lost Legacy.
But... Dare I say it... With how this game's been received it seems like it's been "wasted" on a game that doesn't deliver its first and biggest promise: an engaging and well-crafted story.
Hopefully future ND titles can achieve that great balance of story + refined gameplay we've had in the past, because apart from the story in this game, I'm really liking it so far.
(Also those Infected designs are way more chilling and grotesque. I love hate it. )
Okay, I've since do some reading on this and confirmed the situation: Manny was actually the spanish guy who spit on Joel & vouched for … morekilling Ellie when he realized she'd come after them and Jordan is indeed the one who got his face cut & nearly did kill her, only to later decide to question her.
Has anyone talked about the Seattle crew in depth yet, cause hmm?
Anyway, now that I'm up to date on the story and it's gotten quiet around here, time for a reply cluster!
I'm only going as far back as when the game was first being released on page 30 or so and I got halfway through pg 32 when a post from Poogers made me stop. That can be read later, but for now, I'm gonna do some quick responses:
@DeliciousDeku .Although, I did like one scene. The only way I could describe it without spoiling it is, they gave Ellie a really badass moment where they make her look so cool... But, they also make her super smug in that scene.
… [view original content]
Man, it does go to show that this is the kind of game that you need a few days to process and fully form an opinion that won't change drastically. I take back a lot of what I said, for example, I now buy that all it took was for Lev to say Abby's name for her to stop what she was doing.
Okay, I've since do some reading on this and confirmed the situation: Manny was actually the spanish guy who spit on Joel & vouched for … morekilling Ellie when he realized she'd come after them and Jordan is indeed the one who got his face cut & nearly did kill her, only to later decide to question her.
Has anyone talked about the Seattle crew in depth yet, cause hmm?
Anyway, now that I'm up to date on the story and it's gotten quiet around here, time for a reply cluster!
I'm only going as far back as when the game was first being released on page 30 or so and I got halfway through pg 32 when a post from Poogers made me stop. That can be read later, but for now, I'm gonna do some quick responses:
@DeliciousDeku .Although, I did like one scene. The only way I could describe it without spoiling it is, they gave Ellie a really badass moment where they make her look so cool... But, they also make her super smug in that scene.
… [view original content]
Man, it does go to show that this is the kind of game that you need a few days to process and fully form an opinion that won't change drast… moreically. I take back a lot of what I said, for example, I now buy that all it took was for Lev to say Abby's name for her to stop what she was doing.
I now buy that all it took was for Lev to say Abby's name for her to stop what she was doing.
Bruh, did it take you so long to realize that Abby was intending to kill Dina, even after responding "Good"?
Basically 9.5/10 for the 1st half of the game when playing as Ellie, and 7/10 for the 2nd half when playing as Abby because you're demotivated to play as her at least at the start it is like that
Basically 9.5/10 for the 1st half of the game when playing as Ellie, and 7/10 for the 2nd half when playing as Abby because you're demotivated to play as her at least at the start it is like that
@Ghetsis Nice to see some TLOU 1 Ellie snark again.
I guess that's true.
Man, it does go to show that this is the kind of game that you need a few days to process and fully form an opinion that won't change drastically. I take back a lot of what I said, for example, I now buy that all it took was for Lev to say Abby's name for her to stop what she was doing.
It seemed like you were justifiably commenting as you were in the process of getting the "whole" story then. And there's a couple of things they either don't tell you directly or that happen a little fast for you to accurately gauge.
@FERKILL377 Basically 9.5/10 for the 1st half of the game when playing as Ellie, and 7/10 for the 2nd half when playing as Abby because you're demotivated to play as her at least at the start it is like that
From a gameplay standpoint or for the story?
Now for previous posts
@Poogers555 For one I gotta say my biggest issue is the gameplay, and probably more specifically the glitches. I have no idea if this was just me, but this was so glitchy it was getting beyond annoying. Clickers being alerted randomly, shot through thick walls and seen through walls, a few times the interaction button just made Ellie spin in circles for 10 seconds before she did anything. During a scene early on where you need to run upstairs away from infected the ai partner just stopped and locked me in so I died, next time I was far ahead of the clickers and then suddenly one just spawned on me or something and I die, then on the third try I get grabbed, launched forward, cant move and can only jump for a few seconds, and then I can run and continue it. This isnt even going over how awkward some of the AI acted like repeatedly jumping in and out over the same cover for 0 reason.
Ooh...that sounds pretty bad.
Guess they really did put a lot of time into the presentation over what is being presented.
Another issue is the fact Joel is the one who saves Abby at the start. You'd think this may give Abby some sort of perspective about how the man she wants revenge on so bad just saved her, but she never seems to acknowledge it because all characters must remain one note. Later she seems to show regret but it seems its mostly regret that her friends are judging her for what she did rather than her performing the act. I found it really weird story wise to make Joel save her and Abby doesnt think twice about that. They also gloss over her backstory real damn quick to try and get people to care about the surgeon. Obviously Abby cares but damn, this dude is talking about Ellie as a host, says its for the greater good but wouldnt do it if it was his daughter, and then is confused about why Joel should know- like am I suppose to care this guy gets killed because he really isnt that likable on a human level here. (Also the Fireflies disbanding was really half-assed as well as the reason why this plot drops the Ellie immunity thing because for some reason only one person knew how to make a vaccine. That really doesnt make sense because why would that not be known, written down, or anything for the other doctors? Why was Abby's dad somehow the only one able to do it? Felt like a weird excuse to just ignore those plot strings to make this one instead) The whole Abby situation and switch is just really half baked imo and doesnt do a good job at really setting her up. And then once we swap to her the narrative just get bogged and slowed down, again.
And characters are overall handed poorly and are flat like I said. Jesse just shot in the head, barely ever mentioned again, no one seems to care. Manny dies, Abby doesn't seem to give a shit, and both he and Jesse die for shock value. Nothing wrong with shock value but damn is it lame when the game relies so heavily on it. I mean when Manny was shot I looked down at my phone for a second, and then he died and I pretty much just looked up like:
Its just hard to really care about these characters because they are so under developed. And it falls for the trap ANF did with the dumb flashbacks with Kenny and Jane in episode 4. They are dead, it doesnt matter. And thats a big problem with this game. Joel flashbacks for the most part are not that important to the plot. Us killing Abby's people and then swapping to Abby before they die. I already know their fate Im not going to get invested no matter how hard you try, youre already putting me in the shoes of a character I've just spent the last 10 hours trying to seek revenge on just after she killed Jesse. It just made me feel nothing for these characters because how the story flowed- there was no reason to. Their flat, and disposable and are disposed of.
It does feel like most of these plotwise is due to them(and the characters theselves) not really thinking through or rather expounding upon a number of things.
For things I did like. I liked what it was trying to do with dealing with losing someone you care about, and I do like how the guitar at the end represents moving on from a loved one as Ellie can no longer play guitar Joel gave her. I actually like this a lot. A lot a lot. The tone and atmosphere is perfectly set, and it is pretty sad seeing Joel and Ellie's last conversation not being the best final memory to have of a loved one. Its not a horrible last memory, but its one that leaves you with regret. Gives that feeling to remember to tell your loved ones you love them because one day will be the last day you tell them. Which sadly it is disappointing that this ending is attached to this story.
The thing about this game is there are so many problems, but there are some really great parts tucked in there, the issue is really the execution and the build up to how we got there. It makes me wish this focused way more on loss than revenge. That ending feels kinda silly because of how we got there, had events played out differently I think it would have been a fantastic ending that would fit the great symbolism it has a lot better
Pretty much. The stuff in Santa whatever was ultimately unneeded.
I didnt really like Dina and Ellie's relationship at the start. I dont really know why, it wasnt really working for me, for some reason it felt like Ellie didnt actually like her, but Im glad that as the story went on they actually felt like they loved each other.
It did sorta feel that way.
End of the day- I think this game is just too bloated and lost a lot of the focus and kinda lead to a plot that was generic, not very interesting, and way longer than it needs to be. I already wrote way more than I wanted and I feel like I've barely said anything theres so much
I guess my best take here is to say the game feels under-cooked even though its been in the oven for so long. Sad part is I feel this plot for the most part could work really really well, it just needs to be restructured, because the way it is I feel doesnt work out that well.
Yeah, kinda.
(Also one more thing that isnt related to the score or overall experience, but I want to mention.)
This is honestly really nitpicky but it bothered me because Naughty Dog is all about attention to detail. (This isnt a factor for how I feel about the game as a whole though.) During the game, you can collect the 50 state quarters. Pretty cool. But I cant believe they didnt catch this seeing how its a main collectible. The first one you find, is noticeably talked about, and the year is also said: 1978. Problem is, state coins didnt exist until around 2000. Im not a coin collector and I just knew that through whatever trivia I have in my head, but I just find it crazy they actually added the state quarters as collectibles but so little research seems to have been done on it leading to some of these coins having impossible years. Not that big of an issue but honestly pretty shocking for a company that is all about the details to mess that up.
Oh wow, really? Heh. Guess it matches parts of the story.
@Ghetsis Well said. I'm happy for those whom the story worked for. But pacing, plot-holes, flat-characters, and more just ruin it. Feels more like a character-study than anything else, and even then, it begs for suspension of disbelief and for you to become an analysis andy to get anything from the story. Good media doesn't require that, it should flow well so that you have the important thoughts and feelings the writers want you to have, and everyone can play it and have a good time without getting bored.
A character study of whom, though?
Also the characters keep making bad decisions, screwing themselves over. They don't know how to talk or handle situations. It feels like the writers need to interact with humans more. I get that it's a drama, but still.
Yeah, this was the thing that annoyed me a lot about my second stretch(up till the switchover).
Main point here is that: The story is half-baked and could've been so much better. Kinda like TWD S2 (although I think I prefer that story and the characters/pacing).
Same.
@MetallicaRules From what I’m seeing on social media, this is pretty accurate
Ha, look at that. At least they can finally agree on something.
@Melton23 Lmao fans are at it again. I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: I didn’t much care for the first game, let alone the second one, but what really confuses me is how people can actually go from “oooh naughty dog, I’ll succ ur dicc u’re soooo good at making games!” To “if you make a single fucking game again I will hunt you all down along with all of your fucking families!!!1111!1!!”
Srsly tho I don’t get how you can go from loving a company to hating it, all because of one bad game. They made a shitload of good ones right? Therefore objectively they’re still pretty amazing until their track record continues to look like this.
@Poogers555 I wouldn't say its fair to write off an entire company because after all these years they made one game that wasn't that great when the rest of their games are commonly referred to as masterpieces. You wouldnt trade your star baseball player who never strikes out because one day they actually did. More people should probably wait for whatever Naughty Dog does next before acting like Naughty Dog will never make another incredible game again.
Pretty much
@Poogers555 I dont know, honestly I think the story's main issue is its way too bloated and takes forever.
I think too many people write the story off for the wrong reasons because it really isnt as bad as people say, but I I feel it loses a lot of focus especially in the midway point where it felt like a ton of filler for a game that is already feeling too long.
There's cutscene only videos out there that's collectively 10 hours long, for instance.
I feel it has a really great idea and layout and like I said I love that final scene but most of the game doesnt feel like it really supports that ending. Feels a bit like they knew what they wanted that last scene to be but didnt know how to truly get there.
I think time will tell about how people truly feel about the story as a whole, and I respect it for taking risk, but I feel they didnt do the best job of utilizing those risk to tell a more concise story.
Now why does that sound familiar?
@MetallicaRules So I finished the game. I'm going to post my thoughts below in the spoiler tag, but for those that don't want to be spoiled/don't want to bother reading this, simply put, I'd give the game a 4/10.
Note to self, come back to this because it is pretty long, even compared to Snit's.
I just reached the part where I play as FUCKING Abby. I have never hated playing as a shit character this much before. Not to mention, I never felt bad letting her die so many times by infected and Scars. Even worse, it's revealed that her father was the fucking doctor Joel killed at the end of the first game. Jerry looks nothing like himself in the first game and how the fuck does Abby know what Joel looks like or what his last name is (It was never mentioned in the first game to begin with)? WHO IS FUCKING WRITING THIS SHIT!!!???
There was probably a record or something on him at the hospital. That or she simply picked up the name as she looked into it.
Do they mention his last name in this, btw?
Before that, Jesse gets killed by Abby like it was nothing. I did not feel anything for him because he is just a cool dude and that's it. He just gets shot in the head and it doesn't even matter anymore. So much time was wasted getting to reach him and bring him back to Dina.
Yeah, he lowkey got done dirty throughout the first half or so.
Speaking of Dina, revealing her pregnancy felt like forced writing and makes me care less for her character. I know she loves Ellie but for fuckssakes, going on a suicide mission for a girl of your age, along with a baby on her belly is one of the dumbest decsions anyone could have ever done in a zombie apocalypse. Ellie could have just gone with Tommy because it seems that he could handle himself just as good as Joel, considering that he goes missing for a few chapters. Dina is such an idiot.
Yeah, Dina is kind of a give or toss deal with that being the result of the latter.
Gotta admit though. I enjoyed the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie. Seeing Joel having a smile on his face is just heartbreaking and beatiful. IF IT WASN'T FOR THE WAY HE DIED IN THE FUTURE!!! Seriously, this reminds me of A New Frontier, when Telltale killed Kenny in a garbage way and used the Thicker Than Water flashback to excuse their shitty writing.
Funny you say that, as I immediately noticed that they also through rose-tinted glasses on him like a extinguisher to a fire.
How appropriate that someone asked who's better.
No, not in the first game. We just know him as "Joel".
However, I'm pretty sure I recall "Joel Miller" being fandom's headcanon full name for Joel. Personally, it strikes me as weird if they really did just take that inspiration from the fans (even as a fun reference), but I can't explain why.
That thumbnail, lol.
Did the Rattlers know that thorn thing was there?
@Ghetsis Nice to see some TLOU 1 Ellie snark again.
… moreI guess that's true.
Man, it does go to show that this is the kind of game that you need a few days to process and fully form an opinion that won't change drastically. I take back a lot of what I said, for example, I now buy that all it took was for Lev to say Abby's name for her to stop what she was doing.
It seemed like you were justifiably commenting as you were in the process of getting the "whole" story then. And there's a couple of things they either don't tell you directly or that happen a little fast for you to accurately gauge.
@FERKILL377 Basically 9.5/10 for the 1st half of the game when playing as Ellie, and 7/10 for the 2nd half when playing as Abby because you're demotivated to play as her at least at the start it is like that
From a gameplay standpoint or for the… [view original content]
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Still think the epilogue ruined the entire game. Ellie should have never gone after Abby again. The only reason she did was because the plot demanded it.
I'm getting annoyed seeing people say "Joel shouldn't have trusted Abby's group" and "5 years in a safe community doesn't make a 20-year-hardened survivor go soft" while also saying that "Abby was saved by Joel and doesn't show the least bit of remorse or doubt about Joel's character".
Well, you said it yourself, folks. If you think that 5 years of peace can't change someone's 20-year routine, then 20 minutes of having your life saved can't change 4 years of vengeance for your father's killer.
Abby never met Joel before or even knew what kind of a man he was. Everything Abby witnessed was find the corpse of her father and that's it.
Didn't respond to this before, but I don't know how
Oh yeah. Was Jordan the guy who got his face slashed or the guy who tried to kill Dina?
Jordan was the guy who got his face slashed and tried to choke out Dina.
He then got stabbed by Ellie.
Well, there's also the slaughter of nearly every other Firefly in the building including Marlene.
Jerry and Marlene seemed to have a close friendship, and with Abby hanging around the hospital with him (also being trained with a gun) I'm sure she'd have had other friends or aquantances she knew from the Fireflies that were killed there.
She's got too much deep-seated anger to care about whether Joel is a good person or not, regardless of whether he saved her, so she takes her chance to lure him straight to their group to murder him under the pretense of safety from the storm and the massive horde.
Then it should have been more than just Abby reacting to her father's death. It's very Ubisoft-ish.
So both. Weird that he argued with the other guy against killing Ellie on the spot, but whatever.
Jordan is probably the most cliched bad guy of this game.
.
.
.
Amanda the Jedi has a pretty good video on this game. It's one of the few that didn't make my eyes roll into the back of my head.
The guy who tried to kill Dina. I don't know why he didn't just shoot her.
I assumed it was because he wasted all his ammo shooting the glass above him.
It must be so convenient that he only had like 2-3 bullets. He could have easily just used Nick's gun or Ellie's switchblade.
Finally, I finished editing my playthrough. I am done with this game. Here is my small rant review in my final video.
So as I reach what is clearly gonna be the last two stretches or so, Im gonna talk a bit about last night
All that said, really enjoyed this part of the story compared to a lot of other stuff, but it's definitely gonna start going to shit as the boat ride to the Island forbodes.
Oh, man...
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy this game. Your frustration and sadness near the end of that rant was heartbreaking.
I'll take that as a good thing since he's not in it very long at all.
Probably should've just had the other guy vouch for keeping her alive instead before Dina shoots him.
Wait, then who wanted to kill Ellie in the flashback? I could've sworn I heard Owen call him Jordan.
Nick?
It's such a shame that the biggest and best innovation this game did -- including a massive swath of Accessibility settings, helping visually/auditory/motor-impaired people complete the game is hugely overshadowed by the divisive reaction to the story, ridiculous death threats and whatever other controversy has sprouted from this game.
I really hope this game's push for more accessibility doesn't fade into obscurity.
Here's a nice video I found explaining some of how it works in action.
Oh yeah. I suppose that's where Tommy advising you aim a little higher comes from.
Owen - flashback - Ellie? I'm confused.
When they finished Joel, one of them got his face slashed and tried to kill her too.
The guy who knocked Ellie out after the explosion and was killed by Dina from the skylight when Ellie was restrained.
This footage was recorded a few weeks ago and I do admit that my tone in this video made me cringe a little bit. It was kind of annoying for me to edit this through. My opinion changed a small bit but I still stand by saying that this game was a huge disappointment.
I wish I checked out some bonuses of this game, like the accessibilities, while recording to see what I think of them but it was 3-4 AM when I finished the game and had to go to sleep at that time.
You haven't felt this disappointed in a game franchise since TWD: ANF right?
Yeah, but I still think ANF is way worse because it doesn't offer anything gameplay wise. Although I would say that Javier Garcia was a much better protagonist than Abby.
You know what, I'll take your word for it. There are so many characters in this that it makes sense that I don't remember one being named Nick.
I'm done with the game now and can do some overview as I plan my last phase of impressions.
That was Manny.
So, onto the final set of rounds for the end of the game, with less synopsis and more just miscellaneous thoughts.
This was kinda meandering and went on a little while longer than it probably should have. You can go to town on whether it's worse than the beginning of the game if you want.
Overall, The Last of Us Part 2 is probably at least a 60% or something on some meaningless scale. There's some okay things and a few good things, but those are mixed in with some bad things and an overall questionable vision.
I mean, yeah. Ammo is typically pretty scarce in the apocalypse, so I don't find that so hard to believe. But yeah, he could have very easily used Nick's gun or Ellie's switchblade.
Okay, I've since do some reading on this and confirmed the situation: Manny was actually the spanish guy who spit on Joel & vouched for killing Ellie when he realized she'd come after them and Jordan is indeed the one who got his face cut & nearly did kill her, only to later decide to question her.
Has anyone talked about the Seattle crew in depth yet, cause hmm?
Anyway, now that I'm up to date on the story and it's gotten quiet around here, time for a reply cluster!
I'm only going as far back as when the game was first being released on page 30 or so and I got halfway through pg 32 when a post from Poogers made me stop. That can be read later, but for now, I'm gonna do some quick responses:
What scene was this, if you can remember?
So Ellie turns into a big buff chick with hair that flows like candle smoke in order to punch an ambiguous villain who was sorta being redeemed to death?
I forgot I made this reference. It's not completely out of the way, either.
I'm sure there are people who would say they're one in the same.
I guess I'm complete opposite, depending one what parts you're using as cutoffs.
I'd say the ending by itself is alright, but I think
Oh geez...
I'm not sure that's wrong.
Mind giving some examples of each?
Actually, I think he was just the head producer or something like that and there were two writers who did the story proper.
Like Abby's sex scene. They really thought somebody wanted to see that. Ugg.
I know, right?
What were those things?
People are saying this game is too dark and depressing for no reason and the violence is gratuitous and I'm just thinking "do y'all remember TWD S2?" honestly though I was right, that's what it feels like. But much much worse.
Hey, at least TWD had Luke, Alvin, Walter, Sarita, Reggie, Bonnie, Mike, and initially Sarah to keep things up and/or grounded.
This game has, like, a third of that at best. Granted, it technically has a smaller cast, but still.
When Ellie gets to Nora and is about to "get her to talk" we see none of it. If I'm reading the game correctly, the whole point is that revenge is a never ending cycle that just keeps on torturing everyone that allows themselves to get consumed by it, so I don't get why the game completely omits Ellie torturing this woman in order to fulfill her need for vengeance. If the point is to show us that what Ellie doing is terrible, that maybe she's going too far and whatnot, why would they cover the nasty horrid violence that comes as a direct product of her revenge and then try to get us to sympathize with her trauma over what she just did? We saw none of it! Just blood spatter and then a cut.
That's part of why I was wondering if Ellie was lying about her telling her anything.
What happened to Jesse and Dina before the Joel death? They were all together, how come when we cut back after they left together Ellie is by herself? Then after he dies then they come in? I thought they might say something about getting separated and Ellie went too far ahead but nothing like that. I get that they wanted Ellie to be alone when it happens but considering its also pointed out there was no look outs its really confusing why they were not together and they seemingly got there after Abby and crew all bailed out.
That's a very good question. Jesse in particular doesn't appear again until he surprises Ellie not long after the Seraphites' introduction.
Honestly, its not like it would've taken much to justify it: Dina would've been concerned about Ellie first & foremost and Jesse would've been smart enough not to do more than maybe fire a few shots at the WLFs behind cover as they make a break for it. With Ellie getting knocked out, you either covered ended the scene with those two arriving or, idk, simply had us interact with different people following Joel's burial and have use learn this from them then.
Hell, he probably could've hit or even killed one of the more disposable members and that's how they end up with a lead on how to find them.
Eugene was Tommy's old partner, right? Interesting thought.
You know something that I didn't think of until it was suggested: What if Abby or I guess Nora was Marlene's daughter?
Can ya'll remind me what those trailers involved again? I wasn't really paying that much attention and they were spaced apart.
Funny you say that, as I kinda thought of ANF during the parts with Mel and very briefly with Dina.
I know a lot of people got angry when Joel died and that's fair but there's a reason for why that happens this isn't like Kenny or Jane's death where they die in the most retarded ways and gets forgotten immediately after,they didn't forget about Joel and Ellie's bond and Joel lying to Ellie (which was a pretty big deal) so i was fine with it.
At the very least, his death is for keeps and actually a justifiably critical part of the plot.
What is it people don't like about the ending?
The ending really only works if there's a Part 3 that wraps things up and comes full-circle. Because the mistreatment of all these characters isn't right, like Tommy at the end how he becomes an asshole who sends Ellie to Abby alone, how is he even alive,
That was essentially my thought as well.
and how is Jesse dead,
Because he got shot in the side of the head. Which granted, doesn't look that bad from what we briefly see, but then Tommy should definitely be with him.
Though I suppose you can also raise an eyebrow at the whole "look at what a happy family Ellie and Dina are" thing if you want.
and Lev only exists to suffer because he's trans, that's not how you write trans characters,
Oof. Well, there that is.
Abby's love triangle is so lame, halfway through the game just turns into a wild goose-chase with each main character leaving the other alive.
Yeah, that stuff barely had a chance to register because the game inadvertently makes it easy for you to not care or stop giving a shit.
Overall it's not that bad, I don't really care if it's an on-the-nose revenge story because as long as the characters are good the story can work just like the first game, The themes of the game are perspectives and forgiveness and above all else it's Ellie's coming-of-age story where she lets go of Joel and moves on into the unknown. Like every character who has multiple lines of dialogue comes out at the end considerably worse, everyone suffers because a few people made bad choices. As long as Part 3 is good then this can somewhat work.
but Abby's characters are just boring so it's hard to become attached.
Oh? I mean, I'm not really disagreeing, it's just an peculiar distinction.
(Note to self: figure out what this was about and come back to it)
Er, sure.
You're probably right... later killing a pregnant woman was horrifying enough.
Can we all agree Ellie is really shortsighted in this? Like, almost infuriatingly so?
Oh really now?
Also the game's story only works if the fireflies would have made a vaccine, but the first game makes it unclear, so it doesn't work. Similiarly to the argument of "why did they leave Ellie alive?" well they didn't expect blowback, but hey ho, Joel and Ellie didn't die on their journey in the first game, if only Abby knew how powerful vidya-game characters are.
Yeah, I was about to ask: wasn't there something in the first game about several failed extractions before they got to Ellie?
I just love how Jesse makes it to Ellie without dying,
I actually didn't mind that, though I probably would've questioned it if there weren't hints that he was a bit hurt, as well as the obvious.
or how Dina goes with Ellie even though she suspects she could be pregnant.
Oh, Dina, Dina, Dina...I was kinda on and off with her at times.
Or how 'fade to black' is used after the theater ambush to heal our characters,
or how, ignoring the fact that switching primarily to Abby when you do is terrible because it happens on a cliffhanger with Ellie and then it takes MANY MANY MANY HOURS to get to that point...
Yeah, this really was put together in such a baffling way considering the overly long runtime and the basic stuff that happens.
Abby knows these people offed Owen and Mel. She has killed dozens of people in the hours before this (video games!). She had previously left Ellie alive during their stop in Jackson which can be directly attributed to the deaths of Owen and Mel. Her sparing Ellie because fucking Lev said so...?! In an Apocalyptic setting where mercy is constantly shown, not told, but shown, to be a mistake?!
Oh no, it's better than that, mate:
Lev only intervened because she was about to kill Dina, who as far as she knew had nothing to do with anything on top of being pregnant. He said nothing about Ellie and almost certainly wouldn't have minded if Abby just stuck to the plan considering all that's happened.
Abby just called it off entirely because...Mel, I guess.
I feel like they are actually going to try and pull a Breaking Bad Finale situation with Ellie and Abby with whoever these new people are who just randomly show up last minute. Just you know- minus the part where Abby and Ellie were ever friends.
I never watched Breaking Bad, but yeah, I talked "extensively" about the validity of the Rattlers and especially the fourth act in general.
Kinda hoping this wraps up somewhat satisfying because honestly I feel the biggest issue with this games story is how damn boring and stretched out it is. It feels like it takes forever to move the plot anywhere and when it does it feels like it moved an inch. (which really sucks because there are 100% moments in here I like a lot, but it takes forever to reach them.)
True dat.
...Polishing a turd till it blinds ya?
Joel did say go in with an open mind.
Not sure that pun really works, but whatever floats ya'll boat
He'd better at least take some notes and pitch them to the beta team before Naughty Dog cuts his ass.
Pretty much.
It was this scene.
Nice to see some TLOU 1 Ellie snark again.
Man, it does go to show that this is the kind of game that you need a few days to process and fully form an opinion that won't change drastically. I take back a lot of what I said, for example, I now buy that all it took was for Lev to say Abby's name for her to stop what she was doing.
Bruh, did it take you so long to realize that Abby was intending to kill Dina, even after responding "Good"?
No I knew that but I didn't buy (before) that all it took for her to stop was Lev saying her name.
Basically 9.5/10 for the 1st half of the game when playing as Ellie, and 7/10 for the 2nd half when playing as Abby because you're demotivated to play as her at least at the start it is like that
Abby's arc is more of a 5/10. The only best things about it are the Rat King and the Haven war.
That thumbnail, lol.
Did the Rattlers know that thorn thing was there?
I guess that's true.
It seemed like you were justifiably commenting as you were in the process of getting the "whole" story then. And there's a couple of things they either don't tell you directly or that happen a little fast for you to accurately gauge.
From a gameplay standpoint or for the story?
Now for previous posts
Ooh...that sounds pretty bad.
Guess they really did put a lot of time into the presentation over what is being presented.
Another issue is the fact Joel is the one who saves Abby at the start. You'd think this may give Abby some sort of perspective about how the man she wants revenge on so bad just saved her, but she never seems to acknowledge it because all characters must remain one note. Later she seems to show regret but it seems its mostly regret that her friends are judging her for what she did rather than her performing the act. I found it really weird story wise to make Joel save her and Abby doesnt think twice about that. They also gloss over her backstory real damn quick to try and get people to care about the surgeon. Obviously Abby cares but damn, this dude is talking about Ellie as a host, says its for the greater good but wouldnt do it if it was his daughter, and then is confused about why Joel should know- like am I suppose to care this guy gets killed because he really isnt that likable on a human level here. (Also the Fireflies disbanding was really half-assed as well as the reason why this plot drops the Ellie immunity thing because for some reason only one person knew how to make a vaccine. That really doesnt make sense because why would that not be known, written down, or anything for the other doctors? Why was Abby's dad somehow the only one able to do it? Felt like a weird excuse to just ignore those plot strings to make this one instead) The whole Abby situation and switch is just really half baked imo and doesnt do a good job at really setting her up. And then once we swap to her the narrative just get bogged and slowed down, again.
And characters are overall handed poorly and are flat like I said. Jesse just shot in the head, barely ever mentioned again, no one seems to care. Manny dies, Abby doesn't seem to give a shit, and both he and Jesse die for shock value. Nothing wrong with shock value but damn is it lame when the game relies so heavily on it. I mean when Manny was shot I looked down at my phone for a second, and then he died and I pretty much just looked up like:
Its just hard to really care about these characters because they are so under developed. And it falls for the trap ANF did with the dumb flashbacks with Kenny and Jane in episode 4. They are dead, it doesnt matter. And thats a big problem with this game. Joel flashbacks for the most part are not that important to the plot. Us killing Abby's people and then swapping to Abby before they die. I already know their fate Im not going to get invested no matter how hard you try, youre already putting me in the shoes of a character I've just spent the last 10 hours trying to seek revenge on just after she killed Jesse. It just made me feel nothing for these characters because how the story flowed- there was no reason to. Their flat, and disposable and are disposed of.
It does feel like most of these plotwise is due to them(and the characters theselves) not really thinking through or rather expounding upon a number of things.
For things I did like. I liked what it was trying to do with dealing with losing someone you care about, and I do like how the guitar at the end represents moving on from a loved one as Ellie can no longer play guitar Joel gave her. I actually like this a lot. A lot a lot. The tone and atmosphere is perfectly set, and it is pretty sad seeing Joel and Ellie's last conversation not being the best final memory to have of a loved one. Its not a horrible last memory, but its one that leaves you with regret. Gives that feeling to remember to tell your loved ones you love them because one day will be the last day you tell them. Which sadly it is disappointing that this ending is attached to this story.
The thing about this game is there are so many problems, but there are some really great parts tucked in there, the issue is really the execution and the build up to how we got there. It makes me wish this focused way more on loss than revenge. That ending feels kinda silly because of how we got there, had events played out differently I think it would have been a fantastic ending that would fit the great symbolism it has a lot better
Pretty much. The stuff in Santa whatever was ultimately unneeded.
I didnt really like Dina and Ellie's relationship at the start. I dont really know why, it wasnt really working for me, for some reason it felt like Ellie didnt actually like her, but Im glad that as the story went on they actually felt like they loved each other.
It did sorta feel that way.
End of the day- I think this game is just too bloated and lost a lot of the focus and kinda lead to a plot that was generic, not very interesting, and way longer than it needs to be. I already wrote way more than I wanted and I feel like I've barely said anything theres so much
I guess my best take here is to say the game feels under-cooked even though its been in the oven for so long. Sad part is I feel this plot for the most part could work really really well, it just needs to be restructured, because the way it is I feel doesnt work out that well.
Yeah, kinda.
Oh wow, really? Heh. Guess it matches parts of the story.
A character study of whom, though?
Yeah, this was the thing that annoyed me a lot about my second stretch(up till the switchover).
Same.
Ha, look at that. At least they can finally agree on something.
Pretty much
There's cutscene only videos out there that's collectively 10 hours long, for instance.
Now why does that sound familiar?
Note to self, come back to this because it is pretty long, even compared to Snit's.
I just reached the part where I play as FUCKING Abby. I have never hated playing as a shit character this much before. Not to mention, I never felt bad letting her die so many times by infected and Scars. Even worse, it's revealed that her father was the fucking doctor Joel killed at the end of the first game. Jerry looks nothing like himself in the first game and how the fuck does Abby know what Joel looks like or what his last name is (It was never mentioned in the first game to begin with)? WHO IS FUCKING WRITING THIS SHIT!!!???
There was probably a record or something on him at the hospital. That or she simply picked up the name as she looked into it.
Do they mention his last name in this, btw?
Before that, Jesse gets killed by Abby like it was nothing. I did not feel anything for him because he is just a cool dude and that's it. He just gets shot in the head and it doesn't even matter anymore. So much time was wasted getting to reach him and bring him back to Dina.
Yeah, he lowkey got done dirty throughout the first half or so.
Speaking of Dina, revealing her pregnancy felt like forced writing and makes me care less for her character. I know she loves Ellie but for fuckssakes, going on a suicide mission for a girl of your age, along with a baby on her belly is one of the dumbest decsions anyone could have ever done in a zombie apocalypse. Ellie could have just gone with Tommy because it seems that he could handle himself just as good as Joel, considering that he goes missing for a few chapters. Dina is such an idiot.
Yeah, Dina is kind of a give or toss deal with that being the result of the latter.
Funny you say that, as I immediately noticed that they also through rose-tinted glasses on him like a extinguisher to a fire.
How appropriate that someone asked who's better.
No, not in the first game. We just know him as "Joel".
However, I'm pretty sure I recall "Joel Miller" being fandom's headcanon full name for Joel. Personally, it strikes me as weird if they really did just take that inspiration from the fans (even as a fun reference), but I can't explain why.