I remember Joel's last name being revealed in a japanesse version of the first game, probably revealed during credits. I learned it on wiki. There is also the fact that Ellie's is Williams but looks like Ellie remains Ellie
Do they mention his last name in this, btw?
No, not in the first game. We just know him as "Joel".
However, I'm pretty sure I reca… morell "Joel Miller" being fandom's headcanon full name for Joel. Personally, it strikes me as weird if they really did just take that inspiration from the fans (even as a fun reference), but I can't explain why.
Okay, but did they mention in this game? I honestly don't recall.
@AronDracula I remember Joel's last name being revealed in a japanesse version of the first game, probably revealed during credits. I learned it on wiki. There is also the fact that Ellie's is Williams but looks like Ellie remains Ellie
I remember hearing that those were their full names during production, but that they decided not to use them in the final game.
@MetallicaRules So I finished the game. I'm going to post my thoughts below in the spoiler tag, but for those that don't want to be spoiled/don't want to bother reading this, simply put, I'd give the game a 4/10.
Honestly, a lot of my thoughts on the game are kind of similar to what Poogs said earlier in his own post so I'll try not to repeat too much of what he said, but stick to my own problems and thoughts. Despite it's low score, I don't think it's a bad game, hell, I think there are some really good moments here and that a good, compelling game could have been made with some of this material. Some of the flashbacks between Joel and Ellie, while they lack emotional weight because we already knew what happened to Joel, are really well written and my main highlights. The reason why these scenes hit is not just because of that, it's because that was the heart and soul of the first game, and why it's so endearing to millions of people. Let's face it, the overall story of the first game is pretty generic if you were to sum it up, but the plot and characters is what puts it above so many other pieces of media that may try and fail to do this story right. The story was simple, but its plot and characters were complex, and the scenes in TLOU2 that capture the same feeling of TLOU1 are these flashback scenes with Ellie and Joel.
That's probably why I was pretty neutral/alright with the flashbacks, honestly. They were very much just playing up good vibes for people who played & loved the first game, but were mostly disjointed from the story.
Where it all comes apart in TLOU2 however, is the story and characters, because this game pales in huge comparison to the first game. Not only that, but in some respects, it feels as if it invalidates parts of the first game, or at least, the themes and moral dilemmas of it.
Oh?
One of the strengths of the first game was it's ending, questioning whether or not Joel made the right choice. Despite being an act of selfishness in saving Ellie, it was also an act that showed his humanity. You sympathized with Joel, even if you might not have completely agreed with what he did. It blurs the lines of good and bad and poses a lot of grey in its ending. TLOU2 takes that away, and turns it into a typical "good and evil" dilemma, that Joel was definitely in the wrong, Abby was a victim and was justified in what she did, and now Ellie has to pay the price (I'll get a bit more into that later). I went into this game expecting a plot line to be dealing with the fallout of Joel's decision, so I figured he could have been on the chopping block, but I could never imagine it would play out like it did. Its execution and timing it happens is what makes it feel insulting, and it makes it come across like this team didn't really understand what made the first game so appealing. Despite his decisions, Joel is a famous and beloved character, but the way it comes across in this game, especially with his death, just feels like he was nothing, and that's not how a lot of us wanted to see this character go.
Mmm, I wouldn't go that far?
I don't think it's supposed to be a strictly moral thing here--Joel killing Marlene & Jerry's group and taking Ellie, therefore doing a bad thing for a "good" reason in where the gray came in--, but more of a consequence/backlash type thing. Ellie was on that table for a reason and by taking her away with a bloodbath being left behind, that caused a number of problems and hurt/discouraged a lot of people as a result. Abby is one of those people and the game kicks off because, while her comrades were content to just hate Joel while continuing on with their survival, she couldn't let sleeping dogs lie and so was able to convince them to track him down for revenge. Thus the "entire" game is kicked off by two people being selfish and doing something bad for a good reason.
With Joel's death itself, just speaking generally here, I feel like the clearer issue is when it happens narratively. Yeah, it kinda comes down to both "having the balls" to kill off the previous main character that early and his death honestly being the lynch pin for "most" of the story, but you might think that'd be saved for at least a quarter of the game's length. Now as for why he died that way, well, eh: in context, Abby's been holding onto that feeling she had for a long time and is naturally gonna make his end one that expresses just how much she(and hypothetically, everyone) was hurt by what he did. That and they kinda didn't have many other options at the time, so say shoving him into infected(who can move just fine in the snow...?) with no cure wasn't feasible.
Oh and for why he had to be brutalized, well it's a revenge story, isn't it?
To make matters worse, we then end up playing at least half of the game as Joel's killer, Abby. And her segments of the game are not only boring, uninteresting, and a complete slog to play through, it ties into nothing of what's going on with Ellie. The entire time you play as her just feels like extra padding, in a game that is already 25-30 hours long, but feels like 50-60 hours.
I was playing as her for so long, I completely forgot that we were also playing as Ellie. Nothing that happens in this part of the game ties into anything with Ellie, or what is supposed to be the overall theme of the game, until the very end of her segment where they finally bring Ellie and Abby together.
Yeah, that is very much the biggest issue both inside and out of it.
It's as if the first half of Batman: The Killing Joke movie adaptation and the casino plot line from The Last Jedi had a baby, but the pregnancy was filled with excessive drinking and smoking, the baby was born prematurely, and had to be kept on life support for weeks just to keep it alive. That's how Abby's segments feel in this game.
What the fuck is this idiom?
It's here because they want us to try and sympathize with her, but it fails miserably. Not only is it difficult to connect with Abby because Neil decided to play fast and loose with the timelines, constantly jumping from present day, to a few months ago, to years ago, to a couple of days ago, but her journey doesn't tie into anything in the grand scheme of things. Abby walks away with no lesson learned, she doesn't regret what she did to Joel, she doesn't have any change of heart or new perspective, she's not apologetic. She's not even a changed person, she goes through no growth, and that doesn't fit in line with the theme and message of the Ellie segments, which I took as revenge is just an endless cycle of killing and accomplishes nothing in the end and only hurts you. But Abby is able to get her revenge on Joel for what he did to her father, and she's able to escape, both from Ellie and at the end of the game, and live. The game is so convoluted, not complex, that it's own messaging gets muddled throughout most of it. The writing has no focus for a good chunk of the game, and it often comes off as pretentious when it tries to.
More or less the failing of Abby storywise.
And let me tell you something, when Ellie and Abby do finally meet again, this is where it pissed me off. You engage in a boss fight between Ellie and Abby, except you're still playing as Abby, which makes Ellie, the fucking enemy. That's like playing the David/Ellie fight from David's perspective, it just doesn't work and is immensely stupid. Ellie is not the goddamn enemy, for fuck sake.
Which leads me into my final point, Ellie is the only one really punished here, for doing almost nothing wrong. She has been more of a victim than Abby was. She was denied her chance to doing something good for the world, something that she would have gladly given herself over for, by Joel. She then was forced to watch as he was murdered in front of her eyes by Abby, a day after she was willing to try and forgive him after she learned the truth and mend their broken relationship. Her friend Jesse was also killed by Abby, Tommy was shot in the face and is still physically recovering from it. Ellie ends up on Tommy's bad side because she didn't want to go after Abby for a second time. She loses two of her fingers in the second fight with Abby. And then, when she does come back, she finds her house empty and Dina and her child gone because of her actions, leaving her truly alone. What the fuck kind of ending is that for Ellie, it's complete horse-shit. Abby gets off practically scott-free, but Ellie is forced to suffer because of something she originally had no control over. Sure, this ties into the theme they were going for in revenge is bad, but not only has this message been done better before, but that same message is not applied equally to Abby, who doesn't go through any real transformation, stays pretty stagnant throughout, and is able to go off on her own with Lev. Abby got her revenge, and was somewhat rewarded, Ellie didn't get her revenge, and pays the price. Why are you making Ellie out to be the bad guy in this game, she's not! In no way is Ellie the villain, but with how this game is structured and with how this ending is handled, that's certainly how it feels. The entire game goes out of its way to make Ellie suffer horribly, we witness every gruesome physical and emotional trauma Ellie goes through during the game, we feel bad for her, and then the game pulls this and makes it feel not only worthless, but as some sort of karma for her. I'm all for dark and realistic, especially if its a zombie/apocalyptic game, but this was honestly just way too much, it felt like suffering for the sake of suffering.
I mean, it's not like she didn't fuck up in place and that boss fight was actually kinda neat, but yeah, this game is not good for Ellie.
Honestly, it's not good for any character besides Joel & if you wanna count him Lev and neither are in it as much, nor who most of the drama is centered.
This overall theme falls flat on its face with its execution. You want a piece of media that handles a similar theme in a much more mature and deep way, watch The Dragon Prince. I know I've been talking about this show a lot recently, but I mean it this time.
Again, 7 year olds, and it has more thought provoking insight than the adult game, which is trying to make its point through, honestly, gratuitous and excessive violence
I've had this recommended and might get to it someday down the road, so I'm gonna have to skip most of this.
I believe you though.
Do they mention his last name in this, btw?
No, not in the first game. We just know him as "Joel".
However, I'm pretty sure I reca… morell "Joel Miller" being fandom's headcanon full name for Joel. Personally, it strikes me as weird if they really did just take that inspiration from the fans (even as a fun reference), but I can't explain why.
Is it just me but none of the side characters in the sequel managed to capture my attention compared to the first game? I'm talking about the new characters, not the old ones like Tommy and Maria.
Ellie's relationship with Dina felt pretty forced and it wasn't well built up. Dina did not justify going with Ellie on her adventures because not only she was so careless about her pregnancy, they have also only been friends for like a few years and they have become a couple for just 2 days. They just straight up went "Dina is Ellie's new girlfriend. It's amazing, isn't it?"
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then have Ellie deny Joel's help.
Abby's friends are easily the worst.
Mel didn't do shit to make me care about her ass. She was pregnant and decided to risk her own baby by going in FRONT LINES where killers pop out to kill every single Wolf they find. I never heard of a woman being this much careless of her own baby. Not only that, it is also the fact that she is considered to be the best doctor of WLF. How can this huge community risk their best stuff to get destroyed in front lines?
Jordan is useless as fuck. In fact, he is probably the most cliched antagonist ever made. He had every opportunity to kill both Ellie and Dina and instead of being smart, he dies by ditching every obvious decision he could. I cannot even tell how he survived this long if he is that stupid.
Owen probably had potential to be the most likable... until the infamous scene with Abby. Seriously, this guy was about to become a father and here he is: cheating on his girlfriend to sleep with Abby.
Manny is the one I can never sympathize with. Considering that he looks a lot like Neil Druckmann, he spit on Joel's corpse and all he did in Abby's arc was speak and swear in spanish. Whatever happened to his father is no one's concern. The only best thing about him was when Tommy shot his sorry ass with his rifle. That was full of satisfaction.
Yara didn't do absolutely nothing in this game other than being a victim of violence. The whole trip of getting medicine for her arm led absolutely nowhere.
Lev...well there is nothing about him. During the production, Naughty Dog was like "You know what, guys? Let's have Abby accompany someone whose role is the same as Ellie's from the first game. Because this is the way to make Abby very sympathetic. It worked for Joel, didn't it?"
Like, I remember Tess, Bill, Henry and Sam much more than anyone in TLOU2. All of them had memorable moments (Bill's sarcastic answer to Ellie's question about broken cars is still my favorite) and they all (Except Bill) got a proper send-off.
I talked about most of them already, but you know, I did notice that the majority of the characters(old and new) feel underdeveloped, underutilized, both, and/or otherwise with a certain downside that holds them back. In fact, I'd say none of them objectively goes above being an okay/solid bordering on good.
How about Nora, Isaac Jerry, Emily, and Whitney? Or David and Marlene, while we're at it?
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then have Ellie deny Joel's help.
I didn't forget him, being the only named non-Ellie-related character in Jackson, but yeah.
Btw, I found out he does at least have backstory, but it's kinda optional in Abby's first section.
Mel didn't do shit to make me care about her ass. She was pregnant and decided to risk her own baby by going in FRONT LINES where killers pop out to kill every single Wolf they find. I never heard of a woman being this much careless of her own baby. Not only that, it is also the fact that she is considered to be the best doctor of WLF. How can this huge community risk their best stuff to get destroyed in front lines?
Mel, moreso than Jesse, felt like she was caught between trying to avoid the trappings of love triangle-esque characters.
Manny is the one I can never sympathize with. Considering that he looks a lot like Neil Druckmann,
Actually, he's modeled after his voice actor. Any resemblance to Druckmann(who I don't know, for the record) is coincidental/unfortunate.
Yara didn't do absolutely nothing in this game other than being a victim of violence. The whole trip of getting medicine for her arm led absolutely nowhere.
Her death was pretty telegraphed and yet I was kinda hoping losing an arm would give her leeway. Especially since her death was a bit unnecessary.
Is it just me but none of the side characters in the sequel managed to capture my attention compared to the first game? I'm talking about th… moree new characters, not the old ones like Tommy and Maria.
Ellie's relationship with Dina felt pretty forced and it wasn't well built up. Dina did not justify going with Ellie on her adventures because not only she was so careless about her pregnancy, they have also only been friends for like a few years and they have become a couple for just 2 days. They just straight up went "Dina is Ellie's new girlfriend. It's amazing, isn't it?"
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then h… [view original content]
Is it just me but none of the side characters in the sequel managed to capture my attention compared to the first game? I'm talking about th… moree new characters, not the old ones like Tommy and Maria.
Ellie's relationship with Dina felt pretty forced and it wasn't well built up. Dina did not justify going with Ellie on her adventures because not only she was so careless about her pregnancy, they have also only been friends for like a few years and they have become a couple for just 2 days. They just straight up went "Dina is Ellie's new girlfriend. It's amazing, isn't it?"
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then h… [view original content]
I do these little things occasionally, so went ahead and through one together a few days back.
@Kaneki1_1b78 If this issue isn't proof that this is the equivalent of the same problem that most fans had with TWD: ANF cast, then I don't know what is.
Holy crap, both TWD: ANF and TLOU Part 2 suffered the same problems story wise?
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
Is it just me but none of the side characters in the sequel managed to capture my attention compared to the first game? I'm talking about th… moree new characters, not the old ones like Tommy and Maria.
Ellie's relationship with Dina felt pretty forced and it wasn't well built up. Dina did not justify going with Ellie on her adventures because not only she was so careless about her pregnancy, they have also only been friends for like a few years and they have become a couple for just 2 days. They just straight up went "Dina is Ellie's new girlfriend. It's amazing, isn't it?"
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then h… [view original content]
So I'm playing through the game, listening to music and I've got the game muted (accessibility settings are a lifesaver for this -- having awareness indicators turned on for stealth and combat)
and the most interesting aspect of the infected AI presents itself. The Clickers actually seem to use echolocation (or at least some area-of-effect sensing mechanic). If you're sneaking up on one and its facing a wall, if it does a big click towards the wall the awareness indicator spikes a bit, showing how it can "see" you behind it.
Sometimes it'll do a big click upwards, bouncing sound around its body, and the awareness indicator pops up again, only a little, showing you that it sort of sensed you.
Even if you're sitting still, and a Clicker is walking towards you, if you let it get too close or if you're in front of it as it does a big "leaning click" to sense the environment, it will notice you.
This was something I was wondering was actually a part of their AI this time when I first played, and it seems to be true. Cool detail.
Is it just me but none of the side characters in the sequel managed to capture my attention compared to the first game? I'm talking about th… moree new characters, not the old ones like Tommy and Maria.
Ellie's relationship with Dina felt pretty forced and it wasn't well built up. Dina did not justify going with Ellie on her adventures because not only she was so careless about her pregnancy, they have also only been friends for like a few years and they have become a couple for just 2 days. They just straight up went "Dina is Ellie's new girlfriend. It's amazing, isn't it?"
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then h… [view original content]
I mean that's tragedy in a nutshell, when it's not the protagonist themself.
@Ghetsis If Neil has a good idea for where the story should go in Part 3, then I say he should eventually go through with it. I like what they've done with this and their ideas, even if they kinda stumbled in pulling it off. However, the writers should strive to become even better than this, look for what they think could be improved upon and improve it. Part 1 is so much better told (that's because it's an easier narrative to pull off, but still the characters and moments outclass those of Part 2).
That is true, it was mostly a get this macguffin to this place and come across these characters along the way plot.
Also I was thinking about what you said about
the abundance of shock-value deaths and how you just become numb to it after a while. I think this only sorta works when you consider the whole giving names to the random enemies you kill thing and the themes of perspective. Which kind of telegraphs how people like Jesse, Manny, etc... end up dying. You basically had 3 individuals (Ellie, Abby, and Tommy) in the majority of the game killing a lot of people. Video game (and most media) logic usually tends to dictate that if the main character is interacting with a named character that they are important enough to either survive or have their death be with some sort of fanfare or at least not just out of nowhere. The way this game does it though, Jesse was just a random guy to Abby, Manny was just a random guy to Tommy, etc... in a sea of random guys they've killed. And the only reason why most of Abby's friends had more fleshed out deaths was because Ellie knew to look for them so they weren't random. Well...except Alice anyway. Still, that doesn't excuse the fact that most of the characters in this game just aren't that good.
I do like that idea that characters dying like that is meant to represent the seemingly random enemies you've killed and how youre suppose to be on the same level as them, but the fact these characters are so under developed and the fact that the characters who should care about these characters deaths barely seem to care or notice I feel really detracts from that idea they were probably going for as I think youre right. Instead of really feeling anything I kinda just had that feel of "Guess their gone now" because they felt really under utilized. I dont know, like I said I respect the ideas this game wanted to do but I feel a lot of the execution was jumbled.
Yeah, the fact that most of the main characters not only get killed off like almost nothing, but get next to know respects or grievances paid to them is a critical flaw with the story.
Who's Alice btw?
@yvh0309 SEASON 10 With the Whisperer War upon them, the collective communities must come together and possibly sacrifice all they have to find a way to silence the Whisperers once and for all.
Uh, wrong thread?
I know this comment is old, but it seems pretty random.
@AronDracula I finally fucking finished The Last of Us Part 2. Here's what I have to say. I have been a fan of Naughty Dog since I played Uncharted Drake's Fortune which is one of my first PS3 games I've ever played. That game taught me that great stories exist in video games. It inspired me to play other games with great stories like the Uncharted sequels, The Walking Dead, The Wolf Among Us, Tales from the Borderlands, Red Dead Redemption 2, GTA 4 and of course, The Last of Us. I supported Naughty Dog for their games and studio management for years. And now, they made a sequel to a game everyone has been asking for years.
Oh really? That's cool to hear, man. Everyone has to get their start somewhere.
Never really paid mind to the Uncharted games myself, but I know there's a majority of good things to them.
Fans weren't kidding when they said that ending was garbage and made the whole game pointless. After everything Ellie has been through, everything that Abby has done to her (Killing Joel, killing Jesse, paralyzing Tommy and biting off her fingers), she just lets Abby walk away? WHYYY?? Where did this shit come from? That's NOT the Ellie I know. This sounds like a last-minute idea. Ellie just let her father figure down. Joel did everything he could to keep her alive. And what does she do in return? Letting his killer get away with that. And what is the consequence of that? Ending up all alone. That's fucking what. If Ellie wanted to let go of it, then WHY DID SHE GO AFTER ABBY IN SANTA BARBARA TO BEIGN WITH? If she listened to Dina and stayed, it would have been much better for her life. Ellie is now alone and has no one to lose anymore. How can you make a revenge story without someone actually getting revenge? Don't you fucking dare say Abby did. WHY IS SHE THE SECONDARY PROTAGONIST? Because she is a daughter of a stupid NPC in the first game? Druckmann, did you allow your five-year-old daughter come up with that writing?
Yeah, that last section was completely unnecessary.
Naughty Dog forced us to play as Abby and playing as her was easily the worst part of the entire game. I don't understand why they thought this was a good idea. Most of her story do not even connect to Ellie's storyline. It's long for no good reason. Not to mention, I LOATHED the part where I was forced to play as Abby in a Ellie boss fight. Why do I get a game over screen because I let Ellie kill Abby? WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS FUCKING GAAAAME!!!!!
I'm fucking done. I'm so sick of defending Naughty Dog, they did the same mistakes Telltale has done to their reputation and my fan tag is dropped on the floor. I don't even know what I want from them anymore. Neil knew this story would cause a huge backlash but why he made it anyway is beyond me. There is nothing original about this game, it's repetitive, there are forced character arcs, it has a sex scene no one asked for, it lacks replayablity, It's boring, it's full of plot holes, the og characters are acting out-of-character in some parts, I couldn't care for any of the new characters and everything just becomes pointless at the end. Fuck this game.
Honestly, I'm not even sure the point of the game is really the point of the game.
@AChicken Here's a spoiler-filled article talking with Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross about TLOU2. I can't read it yet because, well, spoilers duh.
Also, here's a really in-depth article about the 2-year process behind developing/releasing TLOU2 that released a few days before the game. I read about a third of the way through before I had to click away, because they vaguely gloss over spoilers for people who don't know the game -- but if you're a fan, you can easily guess what they're insinuating.
Anyway, that's kind of a spoiler-article too, for you completed people. It's also a great read about the amount of teamwork and struggles they had to deal with as a company, at least from what I read.
Neat.
Apparently Halley managed to convince Neil to reverse the fate of two key characters... not sure what that's about.
Really now?
I can only assume they mean Tommy, but not sure who the second could be.
@Ghetsis Yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff in those articles. The changes they made are for the better.
A boy, seriously?
Man oh man, that must've been a steamer.
Actually, my bad. The guy who knocked Ellie out after the explosion is not named Nick. It's just some guy. Nick is the dude who got tortured by Tommy in the hotel building.
You know what, I'll take your word for it. There are so many characters in this that it makes sense that I don't remember one being named Nick.
I'm done with the game now and can do some overview as I plan my last phase of impressions.
Welp, I said fuck it and I started my review series on this game. @MetallicaRules inspired me to do this type of series because of his TWD A New Frontier review videos. He did it for Telltale and I'mma do it for Naughty Dog. However, I don't think this was a great start because I should have said more in this spoiler-free video. And yes, this is my face reveal.
The script for my second part of my review is bigger than I expected. The purpose of it is to bring up as many details as possible to prove how much of a mess this story is. And of course, it's gonna be about the whole prologue.
The script for my second part of my review is bigger than I expected. The purpose of it is to bring up as many details as possible to prove how much of a mess this story is. And of course, it's gonna be about the whole prologue.
Yeah, that meetup didn't really make sense once the cat was out of the bag.
You would think that would cause Abby to second guess her envisioning even if after the fact, but no nothing comes of it. And I definitely remember Joel being incredibly distrusting in the first game, so him being fine with getting to know a whole group of strangers didn't really add up, even if it was fleeting.
Mmmmm... nah. Not seeing from her viewpoint until more than halfway through the game is an intentional writing choice, they went with to explore their theme for the game. I could see a game where it's only going from Abby's perspective working out, though, but I feel like the structure of the narrative would obviously need to change.
Mmmmm... nah. Not seeing from her viewpoint until more than halfway through the game is an intentional writing choice, they went with to exp… morelore their theme for the game. I could see a game where it's only going from Abby's perspective working out, though, but I feel like the structure of the narrative would obviously need to change.
@AronDracula Abby's perspective wouldn't change much if they left Joel and Ellie out of it. The only difference would be the fate of her friends.
Basically.
Though it is worth noting that Manny was the only death she witnesses and even then, Tommy himself is mostly out of sight until you're tussling with him.
Mmmmm... nah. Not seeing from her viewpoint until more than halfway through the game is an intentional writing choice, they went with to exp… morelore their theme for the game. I could see a game where it's only going from Abby's perspective working out, though, but I feel like the structure of the narrative would obviously need to change.
So TLOU 1 was structured more like a movie. Linear, simple easy.
Pretty sure I heard this on the podcast, but TLOU 2 is structured more like a long novel. And that definitely is hard to translate effectively to a cinematic movie/gameplay format. (With a book, you can easily go into a 20-page flashback chapter before continuing in the next one where you left off. With something like a game, with gameplay progression and the act of player agency, suddenly shifting/taking away that typical control for so many detours is a really hard thing to nail.
Also, I'm sure TLOU2 could have been a bit better accepted had the game been developed and marketed as a story not related to Joel/Ellie, having Abby be the main focus. That would definitely mean plot reveals and certain information to be changed to keep the secrecy (or at the very least keep the hunt for Joel secret in the marketing). Though I'm not sure how the gaming community would have wrestled with the idea that you're now playing as someone whose ultimate goal is to kill the protagonist of the last game and making sure the player wants to get to that "endgame" point.
Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her revenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out).
The point of the story is likely that revenge is bad and pursuing it fecklessly will get a lot of people hurt, including the ones closest to… more you.
I initially thought this too but now (thanks to the prespective of some users on here and rewatching some key moments on youtube) I think it actually runs deeper than that! Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her revenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out). Killing Joel didn't fix her, becoming a better person did.
And maybe that gives us the answer of what happens at the end: Ellie is drowning Abby, she basically got what she wanted, 3 more seconds and it's done but... Joel appears, he is still there, haunting her. In that mome… [view original content]
Which part? The nightmare occurs twice, and the one with her opening the door and her Dad's there smiling happens literally right before Seattle Day 3.
Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her reve… morenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out).
Wait, when was this?
Every time Abby goes to sleep (or just before we see her wake up in a cutscene) we see her have a nightmare, and it's different each time.
The first time is her reliving the death of her father -- or at least finding his corpse (just before Manny wakes her up to get ready for Day 1) the next time she has a nightmare, she sees Lev and Yara hung to their deaths like she almost was (just after her impulsive sex night with Owen) and finally, just before Day 3, she enters the nightmarish surgery room seeing her dad alive and well, bathed in light, probably accepting his death as she's found a new family to fill the hole in her heart (the two ex-Seraphites).
Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her reve… morenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out).
Wait, when was this?
I was gonna answer but others already did it for me pretty well . Here are some timestamps:
1st Abby nightmare: 27:19
2nd Abby nightmare: 5:53:10
3rd Abby nightmare: 7:47:00
Abby's dream: 8:42:30 - It's worth noticing this is the only time the red alarms aren't blasting it and Abby doesn't rush toward the surgery room, instead it's all silent and she calmly walks there.
This arc is very subtle and honestly easy to overlook (probably because the huge focus on the love triangle seriously overshadows it tbh), the nightmares are bound to stick way more to the memory too considering how brief and silent the final dream is.
Maybe the point isn't so much "revenge bad" but more "revenge won't get you over your grief". This is shown by, even after she gets her reve… morenge, Abby still has horrific dreams about her father. Only once she starts helping those kids and being a decent person does she dream about her father smiling at her (thanks to Ghetsis for pointing this out).
Wait, when was this?
probably because the huge focus on the love triangle seriously overshadows it tbh
Plus, the love triangle adds nothing to the story. What was the point of Mel being Owen's girlfriend (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Owen broke up with her as far as I can remember) if she is not gonna do anything about what he and Abby have been up to anyway? It feels like the love triangle from Life is Strange, with Max, Chloe and Warren. Not to mention, there are 2 actors from that game who played characters in this one as well. Derek Phillips (Jefferson) as Abby's father and Ashly Burch (Chloe) as Mel.
I was gonna answer but others already did it for me pretty well . Here are some timestamps:
1st Abby nightmare: 27:19
2nd Abby nightmare… more: 5:53:10
3rd Abby nightmare: 7:47:00
Abby's dream: 8:42:30 - It's worth noticing this is the only time the red alarms aren't blasting it and Abby doesn't rush toward the surgery room, instead it's all silent and she calmly walks there.
This arc is very subtle and honestly easy to overlook (probably because the huge focus on the love triangle seriously overshadows it tbh), the nightmares are bound to stick way more to the memory too considering how brief and silent the final dream is.
It's worth noticing this is the only time the red alarms aren't blasting
Nice find. I hadn't noticed it, since I assumed the nightmare sequence was just par for the course. (though that final one was less nightmare-ish)
@AronDracula
What was the point of Mel being Owen's girlfriend if she is not gonna do anything about what he and Abby have been up to anyway?
Yeah, that plot thread really didnt go anywhere. I'm sure that whole love triangle was to show how Owen's a pretty big dick all things considered, but it's a shame he didn't seem to get retribution or a confrontation from Mel to settle it. (Though that would be pretty cliché and this game doesn't need any more of them.)
Not to mention, there are 2 actors from that game who played characters in this one as well. Derek Phillips (Jefferson) as Abby's father and Ashly Burch (Chloe) as Mel.
Interesting they ended up again on a project together. Small world.
Edit: for a minute I assumed you wrote Abby's Father and Abby herself. Oops.
I was gonna answer but others already did it for me pretty well . Here are some timestamps:
1st Abby nightmare: 27:19
2nd Abby nightmare… more: 5:53:10
3rd Abby nightmare: 7:47:00
Abby's dream: 8:42:30 - It's worth noticing this is the only time the red alarms aren't blasting it and Abby doesn't rush toward the surgery room, instead it's all silent and she calmly walks there.
This arc is very subtle and honestly easy to overlook (probably because the huge focus on the love triangle seriously overshadows it tbh), the nightmares are bound to stick way more to the memory too considering how brief and silent the final dream is.
(The love triangle was there because Abby and Owen obviously wanted to be with each other but Abby was still so caught up on trying to find Joel for years they never actually got together because she kept letting it get in the way. Point being is they easily could have been happy together had Abby not chosen her path. And in choosing that path it lead to Owen dying. The triangle part is to give a reason for why Owen and Abby can't "really" be together even after Abby kills Joel and to emphasize she ruined what she really wanted for a selfish cause.)
Comments
I remember Joel's last name being revealed in a japanesse version of the first game, probably revealed during credits. I learned it on wiki. There is also the fact that Ellie's is Williams but looks like Ellie remains Ellie
Okay, but did they mention in this game? I honestly don't recall.
I remember hearing that those were their full names during production, but that they decided not to use them in the final game.
Honestly, a lot of my thoughts on the game are kind of similar to what Poogs said earlier in his own post so I'll try not to repeat too much of what he said, but stick to my own problems and thoughts. Despite it's low score, I don't think it's a bad game, hell, I think there are some really good moments here and that a good, compelling game could have been made with some of this material. Some of the flashbacks between Joel and Ellie, while they lack emotional weight because we already knew what happened to Joel, are really well written and my main highlights. The reason why these scenes hit is not just because of that, it's because that was the heart and soul of the first game, and why it's so endearing to millions of people. Let's face it, the overall story of the first game is pretty generic if you were to sum it up, but the plot and characters is what puts it above so many other pieces of media that may try and fail to do this story right. The story was simple, but its plot and characters were complex, and the scenes in TLOU2 that capture the same feeling of TLOU1 are these flashback scenes with Ellie and Joel.
That's probably why I was pretty neutral/alright with the flashbacks, honestly. They were very much just playing up good vibes for people who played & loved the first game, but were mostly disjointed from the story.
Where it all comes apart in TLOU2 however, is the story and characters, because this game pales in huge comparison to the first game. Not only that, but in some respects, it feels as if it invalidates parts of the first game, or at least, the themes and moral dilemmas of it.
Oh?
One of the strengths of the first game was it's ending, questioning whether or not Joel made the right choice. Despite being an act of selfishness in saving Ellie, it was also an act that showed his humanity. You sympathized with Joel, even if you might not have completely agreed with what he did. It blurs the lines of good and bad and poses a lot of grey in its ending. TLOU2 takes that away, and turns it into a typical "good and evil" dilemma, that Joel was definitely in the wrong, Abby was a victim and was justified in what she did, and now Ellie has to pay the price (I'll get a bit more into that later). I went into this game expecting a plot line to be dealing with the fallout of Joel's decision, so I figured he could have been on the chopping block, but I could never imagine it would play out like it did. Its execution and timing it happens is what makes it feel insulting, and it makes it come across like this team didn't really understand what made the first game so appealing. Despite his decisions, Joel is a famous and beloved character, but the way it comes across in this game, especially with his death, just feels like he was nothing, and that's not how a lot of us wanted to see this character go.
Mmm, I wouldn't go that far?
I don't think it's supposed to be a strictly moral thing here--Joel killing Marlene & Jerry's group and taking Ellie, therefore doing a bad thing for a "good" reason in where the gray came in--, but more of a consequence/backlash type thing. Ellie was on that table for a reason and by taking her away with a bloodbath being left behind, that caused a number of problems and hurt/discouraged a lot of people as a result. Abby is one of those people and the game kicks off because, while her comrades were content to just hate Joel while continuing on with their survival, she couldn't let sleeping dogs lie and so was able to convince them to track him down for revenge. Thus the "entire" game is kicked off by two people being selfish and doing something bad for a good reason.
With Joel's death itself, just speaking generally here, I feel like the clearer issue is when it happens narratively. Yeah, it kinda comes down to both "having the balls" to kill off the previous main character that early and his death honestly being the lynch pin for "most" of the story, but you might think that'd be saved for at least a quarter of the game's length. Now as for why he died that way, well, eh: in context, Abby's been holding onto that feeling she had for a long time and is naturally gonna make his end one that expresses just how much she(and hypothetically, everyone) was hurt by what he did. That and they kinda didn't have many other options at the time, so say shoving him into infected(who can move just fine in the snow...?) with no cure wasn't feasible.
Oh and for why he had to be brutalized, well it's a revenge story, isn't it?
To make matters worse, we then end up playing at least half of the game as Joel's killer, Abby. And her segments of the game are not only boring, uninteresting, and a complete slog to play through, it ties into nothing of what's going on with Ellie. The entire time you play as her just feels like extra padding, in a game that is already 25-30 hours long, but feels like 50-60 hours.
I was playing as her for so long, I completely forgot that we were also playing as Ellie. Nothing that happens in this part of the game ties into anything with Ellie, or what is supposed to be the overall theme of the game, until the very end of her segment where they finally bring Ellie and Abby together.
Yeah, that is very much the biggest issue both inside and out of it.
It's as if the first half of Batman: The Killing Joke movie adaptation and the casino plot line from The Last Jedi had a baby, but the pregnancy was filled with excessive drinking and smoking, the baby was born prematurely, and had to be kept on life support for weeks just to keep it alive. That's how Abby's segments feel in this game.
What the fuck is this idiom?
It's here because they want us to try and sympathize with her, but it fails miserably. Not only is it difficult to connect with Abby because Neil decided to play fast and loose with the timelines, constantly jumping from present day, to a few months ago, to years ago, to a couple of days ago, but her journey doesn't tie into anything in the grand scheme of things. Abby walks away with no lesson learned, she doesn't regret what she did to Joel, she doesn't have any change of heart or new perspective, she's not apologetic. She's not even a changed person, she goes through no growth, and that doesn't fit in line with the theme and message of the Ellie segments, which I took as revenge is just an endless cycle of killing and accomplishes nothing in the end and only hurts you. But Abby is able to get her revenge on Joel for what he did to her father, and she's able to escape, both from Ellie and at the end of the game, and live. The game is so convoluted, not complex, that it's own messaging gets muddled throughout most of it. The writing has no focus for a good chunk of the game, and it often comes off as pretentious when it tries to.
More or less the failing of Abby storywise.
And let me tell you something, when Ellie and Abby do finally meet again, this is where it pissed me off. You engage in a boss fight between Ellie and Abby, except you're still playing as Abby, which makes Ellie, the fucking enemy. That's like playing the David/Ellie fight from David's perspective, it just doesn't work and is immensely stupid. Ellie is not the goddamn enemy, for fuck sake.
Which leads me into my final point, Ellie is the only one really punished here, for doing almost nothing wrong. She has been more of a victim than Abby was. She was denied her chance to doing something good for the world, something that she would have gladly given herself over for, by Joel. She then was forced to watch as he was murdered in front of her eyes by Abby, a day after she was willing to try and forgive him after she learned the truth and mend their broken relationship. Her friend Jesse was also killed by Abby, Tommy was shot in the face and is still physically recovering from it. Ellie ends up on Tommy's bad side because she didn't want to go after Abby for a second time. She loses two of her fingers in the second fight with Abby. And then, when she does come back, she finds her house empty and Dina and her child gone because of her actions, leaving her truly alone. What the fuck kind of ending is that for Ellie, it's complete horse-shit. Abby gets off practically scott-free, but Ellie is forced to suffer because of something she originally had no control over. Sure, this ties into the theme they were going for in revenge is bad, but not only has this message been done better before, but that same message is not applied equally to Abby, who doesn't go through any real transformation, stays pretty stagnant throughout, and is able to go off on her own with Lev. Abby got her revenge, and was somewhat rewarded, Ellie didn't get her revenge, and pays the price. Why are you making Ellie out to be the bad guy in this game, she's not! In no way is Ellie the villain, but with how this game is structured and with how this ending is handled, that's certainly how it feels. The entire game goes out of its way to make Ellie suffer horribly, we witness every gruesome physical and emotional trauma Ellie goes through during the game, we feel bad for her, and then the game pulls this and makes it feel not only worthless, but as some sort of karma for her. I'm all for dark and realistic, especially if its a zombie/apocalyptic game, but this was honestly just way too much, it felt like suffering for the sake of suffering.
I mean, it's not like she didn't fuck up in place and that boss fight was actually kinda neat, but yeah, this game is not good for Ellie.
Honestly, it's not good for any character besides Joel & if you wanna count him Lev and neither are in it as much, nor who most of the drama is centered.
This overall theme falls flat on its face with its execution. You want a piece of media that handles a similar theme in a much more mature and deep way, watch The Dragon Prince. I know I've been talking about this show a lot recently, but I mean it this time.
Again, 7 year olds, and it has more thought provoking insight than the adult game, which is trying to make its point through, honestly, gratuitous and excessive violence
I've had this recommended and might get to it someday down the road, so I'm gonna have to skip most of this.
I believe you though.
Is it just me but none of the side characters in the sequel managed to capture my attention compared to the first game? I'm talking about the new characters, not the old ones like Tommy and Maria.
Ellie's relationship with Dina felt pretty forced and it wasn't well built up. Dina did not justify going with Ellie on her adventures because not only she was so careless about her pregnancy, they have also only been friends for like a few years and they have become a couple for just 2 days. They just straight up went "Dina is Ellie's new girlfriend. It's amazing, isn't it?"
Jesse was so close to being my favorite character of Part 2. But because of the way he dies, he means nothing to anybody. All he did was being a cool dude and a great A.I. partner, that's it.
I don't know what was the point of Seth's character. I wouldn't blame you if you forgot who he was. He was just an excuse to have Joel defend Ellie from someone aggressive, then have Ellie deny Joel's help.
Abby's friends are easily the worst.
Mel didn't do shit to make me care about her ass. She was pregnant and decided to risk her own baby by going in FRONT LINES where killers pop out to kill every single Wolf they find. I never heard of a woman being this much careless of her own baby. Not only that, it is also the fact that she is considered to be the best doctor of WLF. How can this huge community risk their best stuff to get destroyed in front lines?
Jordan is useless as fuck. In fact, he is probably the most cliched antagonist ever made. He had every opportunity to kill both Ellie and Dina and instead of being smart, he dies by ditching every obvious decision he could. I cannot even tell how he survived this long if he is that stupid.
Owen probably had potential to be the most likable... until the infamous scene with Abby. Seriously, this guy was about to become a father and here he is: cheating on his girlfriend to sleep with Abby.
Manny is the one I can never sympathize with. Considering that he looks a lot like Neil Druckmann, he spit on Joel's corpse and all he did in Abby's arc was speak and swear in spanish. Whatever happened to his father is no one's concern. The only best thing about him was when Tommy shot his sorry ass with his rifle. That was full of satisfaction.
Yara didn't do absolutely nothing in this game other than being a victim of violence. The whole trip of getting medicine for her arm led absolutely nowhere.
Lev...well there is nothing about him. During the production, Naughty Dog was like "You know what, guys? Let's have Abby accompany someone whose role is the same as Ellie's from the first game. Because this is the way to make Abby very sympathetic. It worked for Joel, didn't it?"
Like, I remember Tess, Bill, Henry and Sam much more than anyone in TLOU2. All of them had memorable moments (Bill's sarcastic answer to Ellie's question about broken cars is still my favorite) and they all (Except Bill) got a proper send-off.
I talked about most of them already, but you know, I did notice that the majority of the characters(old and new) feel underdeveloped, underutilized, both, and/or otherwise with a certain downside that holds them back. In fact, I'd say none of them objectively goes above being an okay/solid bordering on good.
How about Nora, Isaac Jerry, Emily, and Whitney? Or David and Marlene, while we're at it?
I didn't forget him, being the only named non-Ellie-related character in Jackson, but yeah.
Btw, I found out he does at least have backstory, but it's kinda optional in Abby's first section.
Mel, moreso than Jesse, felt like she was caught between trying to avoid the trappings of love triangle-esque characters.
Actually, he's modeled after his voice actor. Any resemblance to Druckmann(who I don't know, for the record) is coincidental/unfortunate.
Her death was pretty telegraphed and yet I was kinda hoping losing an arm would give her leeway. Especially since her death was a bit unnecessary.
Uh, come again?
If this issue isn't proof that this is the equivalent of the same problem that most fans had with TWD: ANF cast, then I don't know what is.
Another equivalent of Javier's family are the worst (except Mariana and maybe even Salvador, Javier's dad.)
Holy crap, both TWD: ANF and TLOU Part 2 suffered the same problems story wise?
I do these little things occasionally, so went ahead and through one together a few days back.
Goddammit, I was waiting on it.
He was also the father of Dina's baby.
...
And that's all.
So I'm playing through the game, listening to music and I've got the game muted (accessibility settings are a lifesaver for this -- having awareness indicators turned on for stealth and combat)
and the most interesting aspect of the infected AI presents itself. The Clickers actually seem to use echolocation (or at least some area-of-effect sensing mechanic). If you're sneaking up on one and its facing a wall, if it does a big click towards the wall the awareness indicator spikes a bit, showing how it can "see" you behind it.
Sometimes it'll do a big click upwards, bouncing sound around its body, and the awareness indicator pops up again, only a little, showing you that it sort of sensed you.
Even if you're sitting still, and a Clicker is walking towards you, if you let it get too close or if you're in front of it as it does a big "leaning click" to sense the environment, it will notice you.
This was something I was wondering was actually a part of their AI this time when I first played, and it seems to be true. Cool detail.
The side characters aren't very good in this game, I agree. They could've been a lot better.
I mean that's tragedy in a nutshell, when it's not the protagonist themself.
That is true, it was mostly a get this macguffin to this place and come across these characters along the way plot.
the abundance of shock-value deaths and how you just become numb to it after a while. I think this only sorta works when you consider the whole giving names to the random enemies you kill thing and the themes of perspective. Which kind of telegraphs how people like Jesse, Manny, etc... end up dying. You basically had 3 individuals (Ellie, Abby, and Tommy) in the majority of the game killing a lot of people. Video game (and most media) logic usually tends to dictate that if the main character is interacting with a named character that they are important enough to either survive or have their death be with some sort of fanfare or at least not just out of nowhere. The way this game does it though, Jesse was just a random guy to Abby, Manny was just a random guy to Tommy, etc... in a sea of random guys they've killed. And the only reason why most of Abby's friends had more fleshed out deaths was because Ellie knew to look for them so they weren't random. Well...except Alice anyway. Still, that doesn't excuse the fact that most of the characters in this game just aren't that good.
I do like that idea that characters dying like that is meant to represent the seemingly random enemies you've killed and how youre suppose to be on the same level as them, but the fact these characters are so under developed and the fact that the characters who should care about these characters deaths barely seem to care or notice I feel really detracts from that idea they were probably going for as I think youre right. Instead of really feeling anything I kinda just had that feel of "Guess their gone now" because they felt really under utilized. I dont know, like I said I respect the ideas this game wanted to do but I feel a lot of the execution was jumbled.
Yeah, the fact that most of the main characters not only get killed off like almost nothing, but get next to know respects or grievances paid to them is a critical flaw with the story.
Who's Alice btw?
Uh, wrong thread?
I know this comment is old, but it seems pretty random.
Oh really? That's cool to hear, man. Everyone has to get their start somewhere.
Never really paid mind to the Uncharted games myself, but I know there's a majority of good things to them.
Fans weren't kidding when they said that ending was garbage and made the whole game pointless. After everything Ellie has been through, everything that Abby has done to her (Killing Joel, killing Jesse, paralyzing Tommy and biting off her fingers), she just lets Abby walk away? WHYYY?? Where did this shit come from? That's NOT the Ellie I know. This sounds like a last-minute idea. Ellie just let her father figure down. Joel did everything he could to keep her alive. And what does she do in return? Letting his killer get away with that. And what is the consequence of that? Ending up all alone. That's fucking what. If Ellie wanted to let go of it, then WHY DID SHE GO AFTER ABBY IN SANTA BARBARA TO BEIGN WITH? If she listened to Dina and stayed, it would have been much better for her life. Ellie is now alone and has no one to lose anymore. How can you make a revenge story without someone actually getting revenge? Don't you fucking dare say Abby did. WHY IS SHE THE SECONDARY PROTAGONIST? Because she is a daughter of a stupid NPC in the first game? Druckmann, did you allow your five-year-old daughter come up with that writing?
Yeah, that last section was completely unnecessary.
Honestly, I'm not even sure the point of the game is really the point of the game.
Neat.
Apparently Halley managed to convince Neil to reverse the fate of two key characters... not sure what that's about.
Really now?
I can only assume they mean Tommy, but not sure who the second could be.
A boy, seriously?
Man oh man, that must've been a steamer.
This is the best interpretation I've seen so far
The goddamn ninja run with the whistle noise got me
Girlfriend Review just came out. Gotta love these guys' deep well of relevant pop-culture clips.
How do they do it with these movie clips?
I like these guys.
I can definitely with them on the collective presentation of Abby's story.
The worst thing that a long-awaited sequel could do is make you feel so stupid and embarrased for being excited about it in the first place.
Actually, my bad. The guy who knocked Ellie out after the explosion is not named Nick. It's just some guy. Nick is the dude who got tortured by Tommy in the hotel building.
Welp, I said fuck it and I started my review series on this game. @MetallicaRules inspired me to do this type of series because of his TWD A New Frontier review videos. He did it for Telltale and I'mma do it for Naughty Dog. However, I don't think this was a great start because I should have said more in this spoiler-free video. And yes, this is my face reveal.
Honestly, did the first game even need a sequel?
For me, no.
Yeah, from what I recall, the story had a pretty definitive if vaguely bittersweet ending. A sequel could've easily been about someone else entirely.
The script for my second part of my review is bigger than I expected. The purpose of it is to bring up as many details as possible to prove how much of a mess this story is. And of course, it's gonna be about the whole prologue.
Oh, might watch that one.
It's a good analysis.
I believe Joel and Tommy accepting Abby's offer would have made more sense if Abby was the one who saved Joel's life instead of vice-versa.
Yeah, that meetup didn't really make sense once the cat was out of the bag.
You would think that would cause Abby to second guess her envisioning even if after the fact, but no nothing comes of it. And I definitely remember Joel being incredibly distrusting in the first game, so him being fine with getting to know a whole group of strangers didn't really add up, even if it was fleeting.
Yeah I agree.
Should this game have just been Abby's story?
Mmmmm... nah. Not seeing from her viewpoint until more than halfway through the game is an intentional writing choice, they went with to explore their theme for the game. I could see a game where it's only going from Abby's perspective working out, though, but I feel like the structure of the narrative would obviously need to change.
Abby's perspective wouldn't change much if they left Joel and Ellie out of it. The only difference would be the fate of her friends.
That's kinda what I mean.
Basically.
Though it is worth noting that Manny was the only death she witnesses and even then, Tommy himself is mostly out of sight until you're tussling with him.
So TLOU 1 was structured more like a movie. Linear, simple easy.
Pretty sure I heard this on the podcast, but TLOU 2 is structured more like a long novel. And that definitely is hard to translate effectively to a cinematic movie/gameplay format. (With a book, you can easily go into a 20-page flashback chapter before continuing in the next one where you left off. With something like a game, with gameplay progression and the act of player agency, suddenly shifting/taking away that typical control for so many detours is a really hard thing to nail.
Also, I'm sure TLOU2 could have been a bit better accepted had the game been developed and marketed as a story not related to Joel/Ellie, having Abby be the main focus. That would definitely mean plot reveals and certain information to be changed to keep the secrecy (or at the very least keep the hunt for Joel secret in the marketing). Though I'm not sure how the gaming community would have wrestled with the idea that you're now playing as someone whose ultimate goal is to kill the protagonist of the last game and making sure the player wants to get to that "endgame" point.
Finally finished recording for my second part of my review on the game. Took me longer than I expected and now I'mma start editing all of my footage.
EDIT: this video is gonna be over 50 minutes. I hope it will be worth all that wait. Still editing it.
Wait, when was this?
Which part? The nightmare occurs twice, and the one with her opening the door and her Dad's there smiling happens literally right before Seattle Day 3.
Every time Abby goes to sleep (or just before we see her wake up in a cutscene) we see her have a nightmare, and it's different each time.
The first time is her reliving the death of her father -- or at least finding his corpse (just before Manny wakes her up to get ready for Day 1) the next time she has a nightmare, she sees Lev and Yara hung to their deaths like she almost was (just after her impulsive sex night with Owen) and finally, just before Day 3, she enters the nightmarish surgery room seeing her dad alive and well, bathed in light, probably accepting his death as she's found a new family to fill the hole in her heart (the two ex-Seraphites).
I was gonna answer but others already did it for me pretty well
. Here are some timestamps:
1st Abby nightmare: 27:19
2nd Abby nightmare: 5:53:10
3rd Abby nightmare: 7:47:00
Abby's dream: 8:42:30 - It's worth noticing this is the only time the red alarms aren't blasting it and Abby doesn't rush toward the surgery room, instead it's all silent and she calmly walks there.
This arc is very subtle and honestly easy to overlook (probably because the huge focus on the love triangle seriously overshadows it tbh), the nightmares are bound to stick way more to the memory too considering how brief and silent the final dream is.
Plus, the love triangle adds nothing to the story. What was the point of Mel being Owen's girlfriend (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Owen broke up with her as far as I can remember) if she is not gonna do anything about what he and Abby have been up to anyway? It feels like the love triangle from Life is Strange, with Max, Chloe and Warren. Not to mention, there are 2 actors from that game who played characters in this one as well. Derek Phillips (Jefferson) as Abby's father and Ashly Burch (Chloe) as Mel.
Nice find. I hadn't noticed it, since I assumed the nightmare sequence was just par for the course. (though that final one was less nightmare-ish)
Yeah, that plot thread really didnt go anywhere. I'm sure that whole love triangle was to show how Owen's a pretty big dick all things considered, but it's a shame he didn't seem to get retribution or a confrontation from Mel to settle it. (Though that would be pretty cliché and this game doesn't need any more of them.)
Interesting they ended up again on a project together. Small world.
Edit: for a minute I assumed you wrote Abby's Father and Abby herself. Oops.
(The love triangle was there because Abby and Owen obviously wanted to be with each other but Abby was still so caught up on trying to find Joel for years they never actually got together because she kept letting it get in the way. Point being is they easily could have been happy together had Abby not chosen her path. And in choosing that path it lead to Owen dying. The triangle part is to give a reason for why Owen and Abby can't "really" be together even after Abby kills Joel and to emphasize she ruined what she really wanted for a selfish cause.)
consequences...