I immediately latched on to this as well. The only question I have is: How could she hold the sword after the voodoo was sucked out of her? Is she still undead? Or is it a plot hole?
Maybe she didn't have the voodoo sucked out of her, just LeChuck's control? Maybe we'll find out that Elaine's a demon pirate still...
I mean after all, the sponge was shrunk down, so it wasn't like it was sucking up voodoo anymore when Guybrush dislodged it...
There's a difference between a continuing plotline, and a resolved plot. The ending here felt like a rush job that explains NOTHING adequately. It's more like what happened to LOST. All questions, no answers, and all the fans got fed up and now J.J.Abrams has given up on it and concentrating on Fringe.
The problem with lost was they never actually got around to resolving anything at any point during the show...Shows like 24 have left questions to be answered but did so in the next season...
Personally I was happy with having something to look forward to for the next game/s in the series...think about it...if they wrapped EVERYTHING up in total then they would have to think up a completely new idea for the next game...most drama's do it the same has telltale has done to keep a bit of interest for those people who are actually new to the series at this point...
Besides, its not like the game left everything open...Lechuck was defeated (again), Guybrush and Elaine are back together, Winslow got to do some merthingies and all the characters who you wanted to survive survived...all that is left is a plotline that may or may not develop into something greater...overall I was satisfied with the result...
What's to say that the Voodoo lady isn't a representation of 'Fate' herself. She is the controlling point that pits good (Guybrush) vs Evil (LeChuck), and is destined to do this until the end of time.
I don't think there has to be a clear motive for it. Not yet anyways, I would expect some sort of an explanation in a second series if there will be one, but not for the ending of this one. Otherwise everything would be wrapped up, there is no mystery or door left open, and that would be bad.
Name one spy movie where the antagonist has no reason for playing other people. From the top of my head, I can think of money, power, revenge, prejudice, honour, duty, even sadism or mental insanity as ligitimate motives within a story. The Voodoo Lady does not show signs of any of this kind of justification.
I took spy movies as an example, where there are puppeteers "in the same universe as his story", without them having to be post-modern (I curse your bones for making me write this ridiculous word), same goes for the Tempest. There are motives.
There are also intriguers without motives; I admit off the top of my head I can only think of Pook out of a Shakespearean play (leaving out his assignment with the magic potion), though I am sure there are others too. Other examples would be Monostatos from the Magic Flute or Lunete from Yvain. Anyway, that's not the point. Non of this.
You needn't have an explanation, since the story is most obviously left open. And, as stated before by someone, the Voodoo Lady needn't necessarily be evil.
The question now is: Is she a puppeteer or is she just the only person seeing everybody's strings and knowing how to pull them? or asked otherwise Is her fatalistic view of the MI story an optional one or is it really fatal?
I don't think there has to be a clear motive for it. Not yet anyways, I would expect some sort of an explanation in a second series if there will be one, but not for the ending of this one. Otherwise everything would be wrapped up, there is no mystery or door left open, and that would be bad.
Explanations are not necessarily a bad thing. If I were to provide an explanation to the Voodoo Lady's agenda, I would have LeChuck and Elaine provide two, differing accounts and the Voodoo Lady, in her cryptic everyday speak, should hint that both are true, to a degree. You see, I get better kick out of the game when there are several possibilities of explaining the plot hole, not this hodgepodge we've got.
LeChuck is steamed off with her. Fine. Why?
She kept him in this 'cycle'. Anything more? No.
Elaine does not trust her. Till the end. Alright. But we're told that Elaine was a master schemer. She had this whole ring idea in mind since the beginning. So, she'd know that sooner or later, they're going to need her help. That's inconsistent.
The Voodoo Lady is cryptic as always. And honestly, she seems to be even more manipulative than before.
Good theories: there are many, but all seem possible. Bad theories: many, but mutually exclusive/inconsistent. Unfortunately, the ending went into the second option.
I would have been sorely disappointed if they'd given full closure to the Voodoo Lady at the end of this season. They've been slowly developing her character since they introduced her past with Coronada, and if they had ended everything neatly in the end it would have drawn away development from Morgan's character. We've really just been "introduced" to these two characters and they could concentrate on the story arc of one or the other. The writers still had LeChuck, Elaine and Guybrush's personal journeys to deal with as well, you know.
And I have a feeling that LeChuck explained some of his plan to Elaine while they were traveling the Caribbean dropping off the monkeys. Elaine knew nothing about it at Gelato, but by the time they washed up on Spinner Cay I think he'd already told her something about it. I'm wondering what part Elaine is going to play in the Voodoo Lady's future plans. She did say Elaine was something of a wild card after all ...
I think the crux of the argument is that I think the Voodoo Lady's motives are an important part of THIS narrative, and not just an element of the overall Monkey Island "mythology" (I hate that word in this conext), to be developed and explained in later installments of the franchise.
I think it is a mistake to keep it ambiguous, as it lessens the impact of the accusation.
'She manipulated us all!'
- 'Ooookay. How so?'
'I'm not telling!'
It just doesn't click for me. Even -or especially- if it's explained later, in a new narrative within the same "mythology."
For me, this isn't foreshadowing. It's not a cliffhanger. It's not even an open ending or a sequel hook. I'm (more or less) fine with all of those. It's simply a half-done story.
I think the crux of the argument is that I think the Voodoo Lady's motives are an important part of THIS narrative, and not just an element of the overall Monkey Island "mythology" (I hate that word in this conext), to be developed and explained in later installments of the franchise.
What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?
What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?
Maybe it's because she gets mentioned all the time (and her motives, too) and we're tempted all the time "oohh, they're gonna reveal it now!" and then, it always stops. And we're left even more confused.
It's cat-and-mouse game with us. I felt the same about ELaine/LeChuck "supposed" relationship. Writers wanted so hard for us to believe there was something going on.. and boom, nothing. Just a ploy to complicate the plot a bit. Tales feel very 'plot-artificial' in that way.
If I were to present this mathematically, regarding the Voodoo Lady, we've got:
80% questions
20% answers
way too imbalanced for me. I'd go for:
60% questions
40% answers
or 65% questions/35% answers if it had to be THAT cryptic
What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?
Well for one, I think this was the primary conflict since the Pox was cleared up. And LeChuck was very much out to get her, much more than in the earlier games. As I recall, LeChuck's priorities in Tales were, in no particular order: kill Guybrush, marry Elaine, become all-powerful (by means of the sponge), and break free of the VL's cycle of manipulation. Three of these goals are the same as always. So naturally, as a player, I'm most intrigued by the only new one, especially as it's a) a bombshell, changing the context of the previous games -coming dangerously close to a retcon, but that's a different discussion- and b) introduced the most recent.
Elaine, too. Her Master Plan (tm) had two goals in mind: keep an eye on LeChuck, making sure he does not become all-powerful by means of the sponge, and breaking Guybrush free of the VL's cycle of manipulation. Notice a pattern?
So how is it a good idea to not adress this plot point? Not even explaining what this cycle of manipulation actually is? Or why it's being enforced? I can't get my head around this.
What are you determining as "plot"? I consider the plot to be Guybrush's defeat of the Pox and LeChuck, which was resolved. At the end of the day, Guybrush is the hero and his story is the most important. The other characters have their stories as well, and not resolving all of them is what I consider good writing. It's more reflective of real life. We all have our own stories and they're interwoven with one another, but just because my story intercepts yours at this point doesn't mean it will be resolved or explained to you at the point your story ends, or ever even. The Voodoo Lady is mysterious; it's a key part to her character and always has been. If you take away her mystery, what's left, really? We learn at the last second that she's been more involved in Guybrush's life than anyone ever expected; if they had explained why and how right away that would have been really cheap.
What are you determining as "plot"? I consider the plot to be Guybrush's defeat of the Pox and LeChuck, which was resolved. At the end of the day, Guybrush is the hero and his story is the most important. The other characters have their stories as well, and not resolving all of them is what I consider good writing. It's more reflective of real life. We all have our own stories and they're interwoven with one another, but just because my story intercepts yours at this point doesn't mean it will be resolved or explained to you at the point your story ends, or ever even. The Voodoo Lady is mysterious; it's a key part to her character and always has been. If you take away her mystery, what's left, really? We learn at the last second that she's been more involved in Guybrush's life than anyone ever expected; if they had explained why and how right away that would have been really cheap.
Nobody says they should explain EVERYTHING. That's uncalled for.
But they should do a better job in interweaving their stories, as you've said. My main gripe is that there is this Voodoo Lady-Elaine/LeChuck antagonism and its significance made me into believing that we'll at least get some hints about the resolution.
We've got the story of Elaine, who does not trust the VL, but had this 'master plan' with her ring. Was it planned since the beginning? Because if it was, than she would have to scheme a ridiculous amount of nigh improbable events in order to predict that Guybrush will ever get out of the Crossroads. Besides, her genuine surprise at Guybrush's death and yet, manages to convince us she knew it all along.
And then there's the VL, who's clearly playing the both sides. She and Elaine have this mutual distrust thing going on. Fine. But I simply can't imagine Guybrush not asking Elaine why didn't she trust her. Probably, I'd have hard time trusting her as well.
That's funny that in Trial, I trusted her and I was meant not to, whereas in Rise I couldn't trust her at all, and Guybrush actually did. So, I guess I'm siding with Elaine on that one.
And then there's LeChuck. What did he read in that diary? Was it really incriminating the VL? He seemed to be genuinely pissed off, even in his demon form. Yet, it was not revealed.
To make it shorter, the plot has something to drive it. The plot of TMI set store in the final LeChuck/Guybrush battle, but when I played it, I felt distracted. It's like the writers were telling me:
"Alright, there's this big baddie and he's beating you, so defeat him.
Oh, yes, there's Elaine, she loves you.
She's not telling you something? Ignore it. She loves you.
She has a master plan. It's inconsistent? Ignore it. It's all Voodoo Lady's meddling.
But you need to use VL's advice to get alive again. Do not trust her? Doesn't matter. You don't have any choice. We decide what's important here.
The Voodoo Lady acts suspiciously? Take it for granted. Did she cheat you? Who cares, LeChuck is beating you!
He might have had a point? Stop it! You're not supposed to think that! Look, Elaine is rooting for you! Finish LeChuck! We'll answer all later."
At the end of the day, Guybrush is the hero and his story is the most important. The other characters have their stories as well, and not resolving all of them is what I consider good writing.
Have you seen The Princess Bride? What if
Inigo never found the six-fingered man that killed his father in the course of the story
Depending on how they handled it, it certainly could be. The futility of revenge, the impossibility of finding one man in the entire world...there are themes to work with.
If there was a sequel to The Princess Bride, and that story involved Inigo finding Count Rugen, then emphatically yes. Why would you set up a multi-volume story and then tie everything off with a bow in the first installment?
Nope.
Elaine and LeChuck dislike the Voodoo Lady because she's been manipulating them this whole time and they never suspected it. Nobody likes to made a fool off, especially control freaks, which Elaine and LeChuck are grade "A" examples off. They found out that the Voodoo Lady was manipulating them, but they didn't necessarily find out why she was manipulating them. LeChuck probably didn't care; he was just pissed that anyone would dare try to control the feared pirate LeChuck! Elaine probably wanted to know why, but hadn't been able to figure it out.
And she probably gave him her ring because she already knew about the spell LeChuck had used to escape the netherworld (first thing I'd have asked him when he was apparently so chummy) and gave it to Guybrush in case of a worst case scenario. She never really did trust LeChuck after all.
And as for the Voodoo Lady, why not trust her? She was his only hope and her advice had always helped in the past.
Nope.
Elaine and LeChuck dislike the Voodoo Lady because she's been manipulating them this whole time and they never suspected it. Nobody likes to made a fool off, especially control freaks, which Elaine and LeChuck are grade "A" examples off. They found out that the Voodoo Lady was manipulating them, but they didn't necessarily find out why she was manipulating them. LeChuck probably didn't care; he was just pissed that anyone would dare try to control the feared pirate LeChuck! Elaine probably wanted to know why, but hadn't been able to figure it out.
And she probably gave him her ring because she already knew about the spell LeChuck had used to escape the netherworld (first thing I'd have asked him when he was apparently so chummy) and gave it to Guybrush in case of a worst case scenario. She never really did trust LeChuck after all.
And as for the Voodoo Lady, why not trust her? She was his only hope and her advice had always helped in the past.
Alright, you do have a point here. Maybe I'm a control freak too, but I'd love to get some more exposition. What you wrote sounds logical. Yet, I feel like I've been given a set-up for a next season, not a true episode.
ANd I believe that LeChuck and Elaine were discussing the Voodoo Lady on the ship before. Elaine only learned about the Voodoo Lady's supposed betrayal when under the influence of Pox, so after it was cured, she wasn't supposed to remember it (or at least, not entirely). LeChcuk and Elaine probably had a working theory of the Voodoo Lady's true intent, but after a few tempting snippets, they both shut up.
Cool, I'd never imagine Elaine could have asked LeChuck for a spell while they were placing the monkeys. That tidies it up a bit. But whew, Elaine's got some big head to scheme this all up.
This Voodoo Lady.. well, it takes me a bit to change allegiances. Guybrush's sudden love for LeChcuk/hate for the VL seemed stinted and artificial, especially if we never got to see her diary. And then, boom, in Rise she did turn out to manipulate all around her, and she sees no fault in it.
That's the moment when I sensed that her idea of "morality" may be non-existent. For all we know, she might believe that "killing-LeChuck-ad-nauseam" is THE BEST FOR HIM and GUYBRUSH/WHOLE UNIVERSE. All for the balance of the Force, and so on...
I'd hate to be a part of her Ying/Yang pair.
I'd gladly do something to stop her, then. Maybe burn her cards?
For those whom don't like to read long posts, my long story short: I feel the voodoo lady has been taken out of character in this series, her role is confusing and should have been better clarified especially at the end, and saying that she doesn't need an explanation or motive is an excuse for slack writing. She feels like a gimmick/plot device.
---
There are a couple things I can agree with throughout this topic, but many things I absolutely disagree with.
I agree that it is okay to leave a few open ends so people can ponder what future there could be for the cast of "Tales of Monkey Island". A good story doesn't have to spoon feed the audience every piece of information to get its point across (random eg. Shadow of Colossus.) Especially when it comes to characters whom are characterized by a shroud of mystery, aka voodoo lady. If we knew too much about her, she could easily be ruined. Mysterious characters are fun since they leave the users wondering where they stand on the border of good and evil, and what their motives are. However, I cannot agree with the excuses that have been made in this post for the voodoo lady's confusing and out of character role throughout the series.
From the first episode of ToMI, I picked up on the foreshadowing sinister atmosphere given to the voodoo lady. I was hoping this was a red herring as I didn't like this, at all. Some may say, so what? Shes the VOODOO lady, isn't that supposed to be sinister? To me, not really. I felt in the earlier MI games the voodoo lady was the representative of good voodoo while LeChuck was the bad. A foil if you will for LeChuck. The sinisterness given to her in ToMI suggested that her motives were no longer in the best interest of Guybrush, which counters every other incarnation of the VL from the previous games. To give the Voodoo Lady an alignment after every other game has kept her motives a secret took away her charm for me.
Throughout this post the most common response I see is that 'shes not being 'evil' persay, but she is the puppet master pulling the strings and we don't know her motives yet.' You know, I can say fair enough. The puppeteer concept fits to some degree, as guybrush does seem to listen to her without much second thought, leaving himself vulnerable. It could have been an interesting twist. However, how it has been executed in ToMI I feel it is muddy and inconsistent. I think pluizig is spot on with the reaction: (She manipulated us all!'- 'Ooookay. How so?' - 'I'm not telling!')
When trying to sort through everything that has happened in the 5 episodes, I only get more confused. The only 2 conclusions that the game tells us between ep 4 and 5 was either A) VL has manipulated both guybrush and LeChuck constantly, but are not told why or how doing this benefits VL at all. Or LeChuck lied about being manipulated and only Guybrush was the puppet, which again we still do not know WHY VL would do that as it still doesn't really benefit her. I could see that maybe she wanted her love Decava released, but if that was the case her role should have ended in episode 3. Motives have to be constantly fueled by the thoughts of receiving/perceiving some sort of reward, and episode 4 and 5 leave me mystified as to why manipulating Guybrush and LeChuck would suit her interests.
I can't help but think back and compare this VL to the original VL in the first 3 games. Originally she was more of a game play device to help users whom were having difficulty knowing what to do. Because of ToMI's new hint system, this aspect of VL is no longer necessary, but extraneous.
So I can understand why Tell Tales chose to develop her into an active main character instead, which I think was a good move and best executed in Episode 3. I liked the introduction of DeCava as VL's love interest and how he was an adventurer similar to Guybrush. THAT was well written plot point, as it gave a reason as to why VL has always helped Guybrush. But I feel this 'manipulation' plot-line has muddled up this character's development, rather than create more interest and mystery. Its a pretty big bombshell that just doesn't hold up with everything else we know about the character.
I'm sure I'm going to get a reply saying "But we don't know anything about her, thats the POINT. If we did know everything she would be ruined" And I can agree with that. HOWEVER, a mysterious character still has to make sense and at least give a hint as to how and why they do things. Without a single hint, as a player I feel ripped off. I don't want to spend an hour or so on a game and not find out the information I was working towards. Worse yet, when given hints that don't make sense, I tend to get frustrated. Guybrush cures the pox to only find out the one that helped him cure it manipulated the one responsible for it in the first place... Say what? These hints in the last two episodes feel weak and out of place.
Okay, since this has become much longer than expected I will try to finish up. VL's final storyline felt like a gimmick to make the story longer, and have some excuse for a cliche cliff hanger ending. Making a seemingly good character go bad can be interesting, but in real life people have reasons for turning sides that are often seen through subtlety. There was no subtlety here, no hint of explanation. I can say the same for Morgan but I wont get into that right now. Overall the ending felt disappointing to me, and I am not sure what to expect if there is a season 2... And I don't mean that in a good way.
The Pox was planned by LeChuck to get La Esponja Grande. After he found out the Voodoo Lady had been manipulating him for all those years he was determined to become more powerful than her and rule not just the Caribbean but this word and the next. He made certain that Guybrush would incorrectly spell the CC of K to spread his essence across the Caribbean, thus forcing the Voodoo Lady to send Guybrush to retrieve the sponge. The Voodoo Lady knew what he was doing but had no choice and protected Guybrush the best she could.
And in the end the Voodoo Lady got what she wanted all along ... the essence of LeChuck. It came in a jar from the spirit realm instead of being imprisoned in the cursed cutlass, but she's an adaptable kind of gal.
The Pox was planned by LeChuck to get La Esponja Grande. After he found out the Voodoo Lady had been manipulating him for all those years he was determined to become more powerful than her and rule not just the Caribbean but this word and the next. He made certain that Guybrush would incorrectly spell the CC of K to spread his essence across the Caribbean, thus forcing the Voodoo Lady to send Guybrush to retrieve the sponge. The Voodoo Lady knew what he was doing but had no choice and protected Guybrush the best she could.
And in the end the Voodoo Lady got what she wanted all along ... the essence of LeChuck. It came in a jar from the spirit realm instead of being imprisoned in the cursed cutlass, but she's an adaptable kind of gal.
When you first meet her in her hut in episode 1 she asks for the cutlass so she might "drain it" right away. Then in the final cutscene Morgan hands her a jar of liquid LeChuck, apparently as part of some deal between the two of them.
Okay well then my question is why does she want the essence of Lechuck? And it wasn't mentioned here, but in another thread I saw someone claim she also got Guybrushes poxed hand... Even though guybrush had both his hands in the end of the game? (unless my memory is being foggy again, could someone clarify this for me? I should replay the ending but I really hate that final fight scene cause of the bad pc controls)
How does it benefit her? I'm left with the impression she's suddenly power thirsty, which I hate sounding like a broken record but it feels out of character for her. Unless someone is maybe manipulating her too...
Some have claimed it is so she can continue some sort of cycle of "Fate", eternally having guybrush and lechuck battle to the end... But even if she's convinced this is how things should be, how does this make her happy? She must have something better to do in life than watch two pirates quarrel endlessly. Otherwise thats a pretty empty existence if you ask me.
Someone is bound to say that this is why they'll need a season 2, and if that turns out to be the case I can only hope season 2 will blow season 1 out of the water with clarifying some of these loose ends. I don't want to play a game that will be like watching LOST where I sit there and watch each episode one after another, only to feel unsatisfied as more conflicting questions are asked while none of the original questions are answered.
Also, didn't I read in that Nintendo article that a cycle was going to be BROKEN in this chapter? Which cycle was broken exactly? It can't be the Guybrush vs. LeChuck cycle, because keeping around a jar of liquid LeChuck will inevitably lead to another round of the same old conflict in my opinion.
Also, didn't I read in that Nintendo article that a cycle was going to be BROKEN in this chapter? Which cycle was broken exactly? It can't be the Guybrush vs. LeChuck cycle, because keeping around a jar of liquid LeChuck will inevitably lead to another round of the same old conflict in my opinion.
mabey the cycle of the Voodoo Lady helping Guybrush
Comments
Maybe she didn't have the voodoo sucked out of her, just LeChuck's control? Maybe we'll find out that Elaine's a demon pirate still...
I mean after all, the sponge was shrunk down, so it wasn't like it was sucking up voodoo anymore when Guybrush dislodged it...
The problem with lost was they never actually got around to resolving anything at any point during the show...Shows like 24 have left questions to be answered but did so in the next season...
Personally I was happy with having something to look forward to for the next game/s in the series...think about it...if they wrapped EVERYTHING up in total then they would have to think up a completely new idea for the next game...most drama's do it the same has telltale has done to keep a bit of interest for those people who are actually new to the series at this point...
Besides, its not like the game left everything open...Lechuck was defeated (again), Guybrush and Elaine are back together, Winslow got to do some merthingies and all the characters who you wanted to survive survived...all that is left is a plotline that may or may not develop into something greater...overall I was satisfied with the result...
I don't think there has to be a clear motive for it. Not yet anyways, I would expect some sort of an explanation in a second series if there will be one, but not for the ending of this one. Otherwise everything would be wrapped up, there is no mystery or door left open, and that would be bad.
I took spy movies as an example, where there are puppeteers "in the same universe as his story", without them having to be post-modern (I curse your bones for making me write this ridiculous word), same goes for the Tempest. There are motives.
There are also intriguers without motives; I admit off the top of my head I can only think of Pook out of a Shakespearean play (leaving out his assignment with the magic potion), though I am sure there are others too. Other examples would be Monostatos from the Magic Flute or Lunete from Yvain. Anyway, that's not the point. Non of this.
You needn't have an explanation, since the story is most obviously left open. And, as stated before by someone, the Voodoo Lady needn't necessarily be evil.
The question now is: Is she a puppeteer or is she just the only person seeing everybody's strings and knowing how to pull them? or asked otherwise Is her fatalistic view of the MI story an optional one or is it really fatal?
Explanations are not necessarily a bad thing. If I were to provide an explanation to the Voodoo Lady's agenda, I would have LeChuck and Elaine provide two, differing accounts and the Voodoo Lady, in her cryptic everyday speak, should hint that both are true, to a degree. You see, I get better kick out of the game when there are several possibilities of explaining the plot hole, not this hodgepodge we've got.
LeChuck is steamed off with her. Fine. Why?
She kept him in this 'cycle'. Anything more? No.
Elaine does not trust her. Till the end. Alright. But we're told that Elaine was a master schemer. She had this whole ring idea in mind since the beginning. So, she'd know that sooner or later, they're going to need her help. That's inconsistent.
The Voodoo Lady is cryptic as always. And honestly, she seems to be even more manipulative than before.
Good theories: there are many, but all seem possible. Bad theories: many, but mutually exclusive/inconsistent. Unfortunately, the ending went into the second option.
And I have a feeling that LeChuck explained some of his plan to Elaine while they were traveling the Caribbean dropping off the monkeys. Elaine knew nothing about it at Gelato, but by the time they washed up on Spinner Cay I think he'd already told her something about it. I'm wondering what part Elaine is going to play in the Voodoo Lady's future plans. She did say Elaine was something of a wild card after all ...
I think it is a mistake to keep it ambiguous, as it lessens the impact of the accusation.
'She manipulated us all!'
- 'Ooookay. How so?'
'I'm not telling!'
It just doesn't click for me. Even -or especially- if it's explained later, in a new narrative within the same "mythology."
For me, this isn't foreshadowing. It's not a cliffhanger. It's not even an open ending or a sequel hook. I'm (more or less) fine with all of those. It's simply a half-done story.
What makes her motives more important to the events of Tales than to any other game in the franchise? Yes, this is the first time they've been brought up, but LeChuck declaring her to be this master manipulator, didn't have anything to do with the rest of the conflict in Tales - he was still out to marry Elaine, kill Guybrush, take over the world, etc. What special connection do her motives have to this game, instead of the series as a whole?
Maybe it's because she gets mentioned all the time (and her motives, too) and we're tempted all the time "oohh, they're gonna reveal it now!" and then, it always stops. And we're left even more confused.
It's cat-and-mouse game with us. I felt the same about ELaine/LeChuck "supposed" relationship. Writers wanted so hard for us to believe there was something going on.. and boom, nothing. Just a ploy to complicate the plot a bit. Tales feel very 'plot-artificial' in that way.
If I were to present this mathematically, regarding the Voodoo Lady, we've got:
80% questions
20% answers
way too imbalanced for me. I'd go for:
60% questions
40% answers
or 65% questions/35% answers if it had to be THAT cryptic
That's called uneven plot development. Sorry.
Well for one, I think this was the primary conflict since the Pox was cleared up. And LeChuck was very much out to get her, much more than in the earlier games. As I recall, LeChuck's priorities in Tales were, in no particular order: kill Guybrush, marry Elaine, become all-powerful (by means of the sponge), and break free of the VL's cycle of manipulation. Three of these goals are the same as always. So naturally, as a player, I'm most intrigued by the only new one, especially as it's a) a bombshell, changing the context of the previous games -coming dangerously close to a retcon, but that's a different discussion- and b) introduced the most recent.
Elaine, too. Her Master Plan (tm) had two goals in mind: keep an eye on LeChuck, making sure he does not become all-powerful by means of the sponge, and breaking Guybrush free of the VL's cycle of manipulation. Notice a pattern?
So how is it a good idea to not adress this plot point? Not even explaining what this cycle of manipulation actually is? Or why it's being enforced? I can't get my head around this.
EDIT: Ninja'd by the above post.
Nobody says they should explain EVERYTHING. That's uncalled for.
But they should do a better job in interweaving their stories, as you've said. My main gripe is that there is this Voodoo Lady-Elaine/LeChuck antagonism and its significance made me into believing that we'll at least get some hints about the resolution.
We've got the story of Elaine, who does not trust the VL, but had this 'master plan' with her ring. Was it planned since the beginning? Because if it was, than she would have to scheme a ridiculous amount of nigh improbable events in order to predict that Guybrush will ever get out of the Crossroads. Besides, her genuine surprise at Guybrush's death and yet, manages to convince us she knew it all along.
And then there's the VL, who's clearly playing the both sides. She and Elaine have this mutual distrust thing going on. Fine. But I simply can't imagine Guybrush not asking Elaine why didn't she trust her. Probably, I'd have hard time trusting her as well.
That's funny that in Trial, I trusted her and I was meant not to, whereas in Rise I couldn't trust her at all, and Guybrush actually did. So, I guess I'm siding with Elaine on that one.
And then there's LeChuck. What did he read in that diary? Was it really incriminating the VL? He seemed to be genuinely pissed off, even in his demon form. Yet, it was not revealed.
To make it shorter, the plot has something to drive it. The plot of TMI set store in the final LeChuck/Guybrush battle, but when I played it, I felt distracted. It's like the writers were telling me:
"Alright, there's this big baddie and he's beating you, so defeat him.
Oh, yes, there's Elaine, she loves you.
She's not telling you something? Ignore it. She loves you.
She has a master plan. It's inconsistent? Ignore it. It's all Voodoo Lady's meddling.
But you need to use VL's advice to get alive again. Do not trust her? Doesn't matter. You don't have any choice. We decide what's important here.
The Voodoo Lady acts suspiciously? Take it for granted. Did she cheat you? Who cares, LeChuck is beating you!
He might have had a point? Stop it! You're not supposed to think that! Look, Elaine is rooting for you! Finish LeChuck! We'll answer all later."
...then, the final cutscene...
the end...
kinda depressing, isn't it?
Have you seen The Princess Bride? What if
If there was a sequel to The Princess Bride, and that story involved Inigo finding Count Rugen, then emphatically yes. Why would you set up a multi-volume story and then tie everything off with a bow in the first installment?
Elaine and LeChuck dislike the Voodoo Lady because she's been manipulating them this whole time and they never suspected it. Nobody likes to made a fool off, especially control freaks, which Elaine and LeChuck are grade "A" examples off. They found out that the Voodoo Lady was manipulating them, but they didn't necessarily find out why she was manipulating them. LeChuck probably didn't care; he was just pissed that anyone would dare try to control the feared pirate LeChuck! Elaine probably wanted to know why, but hadn't been able to figure it out.
And she probably gave him her ring because she already knew about the spell LeChuck had used to escape the netherworld (first thing I'd have asked him when he was apparently so chummy) and gave it to Guybrush in case of a worst case scenario. She never really did trust LeChuck after all.
And as for the Voodoo Lady, why not trust her? She was his only hope and her advice had always helped in the past.
Alright, you do have a point here. Maybe I'm a control freak too, but I'd love to get some more exposition.
ANd I believe that LeChuck and Elaine were discussing the Voodoo Lady on the ship before. Elaine only learned about the Voodoo Lady's supposed betrayal when under the influence of Pox, so after it was cured, she wasn't supposed to remember it (or at least, not entirely). LeChcuk and Elaine probably had a working theory of the Voodoo Lady's true intent, but after a few tempting snippets, they both shut up.
Cool, I'd never imagine Elaine could have asked LeChuck for a spell while they were placing the monkeys. That tidies it up a bit. But whew, Elaine's got some big head to scheme this all up.
This Voodoo Lady.. well, it takes me a bit to change allegiances. Guybrush's sudden love for LeChcuk/hate for the VL seemed stinted and artificial, especially if we never got to see her diary. And then, boom, in Rise she did turn out to manipulate all around her, and she sees no fault in it.
That's the moment when I sensed that her idea of "morality" may be non-existent. For all we know, she might believe that "killing-LeChuck-ad-nauseam" is THE BEST FOR HIM and GUYBRUSH/WHOLE UNIVERSE.
I'd hate to be a part of her Ying/Yang pair.
I'd gladly do something to stop her, then. Maybe burn her cards?
For those whom don't like to read long posts, my long story short: I feel the voodoo lady has been taken out of character in this series, her role is confusing and should have been better clarified especially at the end, and saying that she doesn't need an explanation or motive is an excuse for slack writing. She feels like a gimmick/plot device.
---
There are a couple things I can agree with throughout this topic, but many things I absolutely disagree with.
I agree that it is okay to leave a few open ends so people can ponder what future there could be for the cast of "Tales of Monkey Island". A good story doesn't have to spoon feed the audience every piece of information to get its point across (random eg. Shadow of Colossus.) Especially when it comes to characters whom are characterized by a shroud of mystery, aka voodoo lady. If we knew too much about her, she could easily be ruined. Mysterious characters are fun since they leave the users wondering where they stand on the border of good and evil, and what their motives are. However, I cannot agree with the excuses that have been made in this post for the voodoo lady's confusing and out of character role throughout the series.
From the first episode of ToMI, I picked up on the foreshadowing sinister atmosphere given to the voodoo lady. I was hoping this was a red herring as I didn't like this, at all. Some may say, so what? Shes the VOODOO lady, isn't that supposed to be sinister? To me, not really. I felt in the earlier MI games the voodoo lady was the representative of good voodoo while LeChuck was the bad. A foil if you will for LeChuck. The sinisterness given to her in ToMI suggested that her motives were no longer in the best interest of Guybrush, which counters every other incarnation of the VL from the previous games. To give the Voodoo Lady an alignment after every other game has kept her motives a secret took away her charm for me.
Throughout this post the most common response I see is that 'shes not being 'evil' persay, but she is the puppet master pulling the strings and we don't know her motives yet.' You know, I can say fair enough. The puppeteer concept fits to some degree, as guybrush does seem to listen to her without much second thought, leaving himself vulnerable. It could have been an interesting twist. However, how it has been executed in ToMI I feel it is muddy and inconsistent. I think pluizig is spot on with the reaction: (She manipulated us all!'- 'Ooookay. How so?' - 'I'm not telling!')
When trying to sort through everything that has happened in the 5 episodes, I only get more confused. The only 2 conclusions that the game tells us between ep 4 and 5 was either A) VL has manipulated both guybrush and LeChuck constantly, but are not told why or how doing this benefits VL at all. Or
I can't help but think back and compare this VL to the original VL in the first 3 games. Originally she was more of a game play device to help users whom were having difficulty knowing what to do. Because of ToMI's new hint system, this aspect of VL is no longer necessary, but extraneous.
So I can understand why Tell Tales chose to develop her into an active main character instead, which I think was a good move and best executed in Episode 3. I liked the introduction of DeCava as VL's love interest and how he was an adventurer similar to Guybrush. THAT was well written plot point, as it gave a reason as to why VL has always helped Guybrush. But I feel this 'manipulation' plot-line has muddled up this character's development, rather than create more interest and mystery. Its a pretty big bombshell that just doesn't hold up with everything else we know about the character.
I'm sure I'm going to get a reply saying "But we don't know anything about her, thats the POINT. If we did know everything she would be ruined" And I can agree with that. HOWEVER, a mysterious character still has to make sense and at least give a hint as to how and why they do things. Without a single hint, as a player I feel ripped off. I don't want to spend an hour or so on a game and not find out the information I was working towards. Worse yet, when given hints that don't make sense, I tend to get frustrated. Guybrush cures the pox to only find out the one that helped him cure it manipulated the one responsible for it in the first place... Say what? These hints in the last two episodes feel weak and out of place.
Okay, since this has become much longer than expected I will try to finish up. VL's final storyline felt like a gimmick to make the story longer, and have some excuse for a cliche cliff hanger ending. Making a seemingly good character go bad can be interesting, but in real life people have reasons for turning sides that are often seen through subtlety. There was no subtlety here, no hint of explanation. I can say the same for Morgan but I wont get into that right now. Overall the ending felt disappointing to me, and I am not sure what to expect if there is a season 2... And I don't mean that in a good way.
And in the end the Voodoo Lady got what she wanted all along ... the essence of LeChuck. It came in a jar from the spirit realm instead of being imprisoned in the cursed cutlass, but she's an adaptable kind of gal.
And in the end the Voodoo Lady got what she wanted all along ... the essence of LeChuck. It came in a jar from the spirit realm instead of being imprisoned in the cursed cutlass, but she's an adaptable kind of gal.
Mmm... delicious!
How does it benefit her? I'm left with the impression she's suddenly power thirsty, which I hate sounding like a broken record but it feels out of character for her. Unless someone is maybe manipulating her too...
Some have claimed it is so she can continue some sort of cycle of "Fate", eternally having guybrush and lechuck battle to the end... But even if she's convinced this is how things should be, how does this make her happy? She must have something better to do in life than watch two pirates quarrel endlessly. Otherwise thats a pretty empty existence if you ask me.
Someone is bound to say that this is why they'll need a season 2, and if that turns out to be the case I can only hope season 2 will blow season 1 out of the water with clarifying some of these loose ends. I don't want to play a game that will be like watching LOST where I sit there and watch each episode one after another, only to feel unsatisfied as more conflicting questions are asked while none of the original questions are answered.
Also, didn't I read in that Nintendo article that a cycle was going to be BROKEN in this chapter? Which cycle was broken exactly? It can't be the Guybrush vs. LeChuck cycle, because keeping around a jar of liquid LeChuck will inevitably lead to another round of the same old conflict in my opinion.
mabey the cycle of the Voodoo Lady helping Guybrush