On further consideration, Kijin and farlander, you bring up excellent points! I have had to amend my theory based on this.
You both point out that Elaine herself shows surprise at the Cutlass's failure, that she tries herself to stab LeChuck with it in Rise, and that Guybrush has to tell her how to defeat him. Which means that Elaine DOES NOT know at first the Cutlass won't work, nor does she know that she has to open the Crossroads to kill him. (I was wrong on that bit.)
But Elaine obviously has come to despise the Voodoo Lady by Rise. She must have realized that the Voodoo Lady is up to no good at SOME point. Plus, she mentions in two scenes that the Esponja Grande quest with Nice Human LeChuck was all for Guybrush's benefit. Most likely, Elaine figured out that, once La Esponja Grande (which the Voodoo Lady had told Guybrush to obtain) had absorbed all the Pox, then LeChuck would simply steal the sponge and absorb its voodoo power. She knew that the Voodoo Lady must know this, too.
Elaine also gives Guybrush her ring. She knows it'll be important for something. But what? Even if she doesn't know Guybrush has to "cross over" to kill LeChuck, she probably DOES at least know that wedding rings would have major protective significance in voodoo spells, given the powerful love they embody. She wanted Guybrush to be magically safe should anything happen to him. As it indeed did.
EDIT: Hey guys, I updated the first post with this revised theory, so go have another look!
I agree with everything you said in this post. My last post sounded belligerent, and I just wanted to apologize to you and clarify that I do respect all the great work you've done in coming up with this theory. There are a lot we don't know but I don't think any amount of discussion can solve them yet. Hopefully the remaining loopholes will be solved in the second season, which I am anticipating.
I feel this pretty well summarizes Tales, but I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread......were people really that lost as to the storyline that somebody has to spell it out for them like this?
No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.
I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?
I feel this pretty well summarizes Tales, but I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread......were people really that lost as to the storyline that somebody has to spell it out for them like this?
No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.
I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?
I found it difficult to follow, but I feel it all depends on how you go about playing it. If you go through and talk to everyone about everything, of course you will get the whole picture. But honestly, there were some parts of these chapters I found boring and just wanted to run through quickly hoping that something more interesting would arise.
I actually haven't read through all of this original post yet, I've been meaning too, but with exams going I technically shouldn't even be browsing this forum. But once I do read it I plan on responding to it, and I will say then whether or not this post was necessary. As of right now I think it is.
You completely forgot about the fact that Elaine was too poxed to be following any agenda, probably somewhere by the end of Leviathan. That too, combined with the "Belt Buckle of Smiley Skull" could've clouded her judgement about LeChuck's plan.
I feel this pretty well summarizes Tales, but I'm confused as to the purpose of this thread......were people really that lost as to the storyline that somebody has to spell it out for them like this?
No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.
I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?
If the plot were easy to follow, then there wouldn't be a three page thread about it. You should also keep in mind that this isn't the only thread dedicated to discussing the ToMI plot. You appear to be among the minority of people who understood the entire plot without explanation. For most of us, it was too vague, and way too much was left up to the player to solve. If someone was like me, and didn't think to analyze ToMI, as I assumed it would have had a simple plot. Curse, Secret and Escape all had easy to understand plots that required very little analysis. Le Chuck's Revenge was more complicated, but you could still enjoy the plot without having to do any analysis. I never thought I would ever say this, but if a large portion of the ToMI fan community has been unable to piece the story together, then Telltale may have failed to properly present the story in the game.
If the plot were easy to follow, then there wouldn't be a three page thread about it. You should also keep in mind that this isn't the only thread dedicated to discussing the ToMI plot. You appear to be among the minority of people who understood the entire plot without explanation. For most of us, it was too vague, and way too much was left up to the player to solve. If someone was like me, and didn't think to analyze ToMI, as I assumed it would have had a simple plot. Curse, Secret and Escape all had easy to understand plots that required very little analysis. Le Chuck's Revenge was more complicated, but you could still enjoy the plot without having to do any analysis. I never thought I would ever say this, but if a large portion of the ToMI fan community has been unable to piece the story together, then Telltale may have failed to properly present the story in the game.
I don't mean to spam but... thank you... thank thank thank thank thank you.
Now that I'm done jabbering.. I will say a story is allowed to be complex, I love complex inter-twining stories. But if not presented in an appropriate manor, a complex story can come off as convoluted and conflicting. No differently than coming up with a great speech, but the speaker that reads it only reveals bits and pieces of it, perhaps not at the most appropriate of times.
I know there's been plenty of theories already about Elaine's relationship with voodoo in this thread, but.. what do you think of this one?
His theory revolves around the Voodoo Lady claiming that Elaine doesn't believe in Voodoo. He takes this to mean that Elaine is either controlled by Voodoo or she controls Voodoo.
Both theories are difficult to evaluate. Although Elaine seems to be tricked by LeChuck's voodoo belt, but it is interesting to note that when Guybrush wears it in the Thieves Guild, Guybrush seems to have some measure of control over what the person believes. The Voodoo Belt doesn't control somebody persay, but it definitely influences them - it makes them far more relaxed than they would be normally. When a large amount of Voodoo energy is pumped into her, she seems to lose all control - I don't think she would willingly have sprayed Guybrush with rootbeer, when she knows that it kills ghosts. Elaine tries to maintain her independence when being influenced by Voodoo, but she relies on Guybrush to help her when she cannot control it.
The second theory, that Elaine somehow controls Voodoo is a bit of a reach. If that were true, then I guess Elaine would be the pirate God, but I don't see any evidence for that. The power of the ring has been discussed in great detail in other threads, and nobody is sure exactly what the power of the ring is. There are a lot of unanswered questions still about ToMI, but I somehow doubt that Elaine can control all Voodoo around her.
His theory revolves around the Voodoo Lady claiming that Elaine doesn't believe in Voodoo. He takes this to mean that Elaine is either controlled by Voodoo or she controls Voodoo.
Both theories are difficult to evaluate. Although Elaine seems to be tricked by LeChuck's voodoo belt, but it is interesting to note that when Guybrush wears it in the Thieves Guild, Guybrush seems to have some measure of control over what the person believes. The Voodoo Belt doesn't control somebody persay, but it definitely influences them - it makes them far more relaxed than they would be normally. When a large amount of Voodoo energy is pumped into her, she seems to lose all control - I don't think she would willingly have sprayed Guybrush with rootbeer, when she knows that it kills ghosts. Elaine tries to maintain her independence when being influenced by Voodoo, but she relies on Guybrush to help her when she cannot control it.
The second theory, that Elaine somehow controls Voodoo is a bit of a reach. If that were true, then I guess Elaine would be the pirate God, but I don't see any evidence for that. The power of the ring has been discussed in great detail in other threads, and nobody is sure exactly what the power of the ring is. There are a lot of unanswered questions still about ToMI, but I somehow doubt that Elaine can control all Voodoo around her.
Well it's not meant to be conscious. Sure, if Elaine could just control voodoo she'd be the pirate God. The idea is a representation of the way voodoo flows around her, really. People who exhibit a great deal of independence can sometimes divert it's flow just by standing still.
Well it's not meant to be conscious. Sure, if Elaine could just control voodoo she'd be the pirate God. The idea is a representation of the way voodoo flows around her, really. People who exhibit a great deal of independence can sometimes divert it's flow just by standing still.
Huh. So Elaine could be unconsciously controlling Voodoo, eh? That's a theory I won't touch with a 10 foot pole until the second season begins. I'm already confused enough as it is. Although you raise a good point - the game never explicitly stated who the 'Pirate God' was. Le Chuck, Guybrush, Elaine and Morgan are all possible candidates, because all four of them came into contact with powerful Voodoo magic throughout fifth episode.
Huh. So Elaine could be unconsciously controlling Voodoo, eh? That's a theory I won't touch with a 10 foot pole until the second season begins. I'm already confused enough as it is. Although you raise a good point - the game never explicitly stated who the 'Pirate God' was. Le Chuck, Guybrush, Elaine and Morgan are all possible candidates, because all four of them came into contact with powerful Voodoo magic throughout fifth episode.
ATMachine's summary in this thread is completely satisfying apart from Elaine and Morgan's motivations. I'm sure LeChuck was the "Pirate God" for his brief consumption of the Crossroad's vague "power". I'm just trying to explain Elaine's motivations and I think her relationship with voodoo is central to why she does what she does.
Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.
ATMachine's summary in this thread is completely satisfying apart from Elaine and Morgan's motivations. I'm sure LeChuck was the "Pirate God" for his brief consumption of the Crossroad's vague "power". I'm just trying to explain Elaine's motivations and I think her relationship with voodoo is central to why she does what she does.
Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.
On the first part, I agree - but to be fair the game neither states what a 'Pirate God' is, nor does it state who the Pirate God is. Apparently only a shitload of Voodoo power is needed to become the God of Pirates - but after Le Chuck absorbed the power of the Crossroads, he didn't seem all that different. Granted, he stopped time but he always has had a ton of voodoo energy. Elaine's motivations are unclear, but I doubt Telltale is going to tell us anything aside from the fact that she was motivated by her love for Guybrush, which is true but vague.
Morgan took a fascinating turn at the end of Chapter 5 - it'll be interesting to see if she becomes the new villain. If so, we may see a new twist on an old concept - the main villain may be lusting after Guybrush, instead of Elaine this time around.
no, please not.
i like morgan and i don’t want her to lose her newfound friendship with guybrush. cite:
“i wold like to go pirate hunting again – present company excluded, of course”
no, please not.
i like morgan and i don’t want her to lose her newfound friendship with guybrush. cite:
“i wold like to go pirate hunting again – present company excluded, of course”
When Guybrush greeted her with "Hey, you!".. I was really happy. They finally made peace.
And then wtf with the ending.
It's not that it's not interesting, and I'm glad she's back, it just cheapens her whole redemption arc to have her help with reviving LeChuck. Who killed her!
To be perfectly fair, I don't think she full comprehends what she's done.
Well she has to know that instead of just letting the dude die, she's keeping him around in some sense, right? But it's not just that, it's also that her character development and relationship to Guybrush didn't leave me thinking that she'd abandon him after he sacrifices his life to defeat LeChuck just so she could return to the world of the living. She sacrificed her freedom so he could escape, and then later on just leaves under the assumption that bar a miracle (which is essentially what happened) Guybrush would be trapped in the Crossroads forever! It doesn't add up for me.
I think It is partly true. Yes Gubrush and LeChuck are sworn enemies, But Elaine always has a back-up plan in every monkey island game (except when you give her the cursed ring in MI3). The ring in ToMI is the curse removing ring from MI3 and lets be honest, Guybrush will always need all the help that he can get (therefor he needs the ring more than Elaine).
I think the Voodoo lady's goals have something to do with the TRUE secret of monkey island. I don't buy the robot-monkey idea from MI4.
I am a bit sad that the island of monkey island was never shown.
Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.
Well, it's not her fault. She gave up her independence. (Even though she claimed it was her reputation.)
NEW EDIT: After input from commenters, I've rewritten this so it's somewhat more plausible. People have pointed out that I thought Elaine knew far too much, and I think they're right!
Youch... that's too many difficult to swallow things in there.
Also, I thought the reason the Cutlass didn't work was because LeChuck had "years of knowledge" and also because he'd absorbed so much Voodoo Energy at that point.
I get the feeling that it WOULD have worked at the beginning of the game. In fact, I'm sure of it... otherwise LeChuck could have killed Guybrush.
The idea that Elaine was trying to get the Voodoo Lady's diary is patently absurd. The idea that she was going to get the bumbling human-LeChuck to help her is 10x more absurd.
I do like the idea that the Voodoo Lady is attempting to keep the universe alive via LeChuck and Guybrush -- for without them, her universe literally wouldn't exist!
Comments
I agree with everything you said in this post. My last post sounded belligerent, and I just wanted to apologize to you and clarify that I do respect all the great work you've done in coming up with this theory. There are a lot we don't know but I don't think any amount of discussion can solve them yet. Hopefully the remaining loopholes will be solved in the second season, which I am anticipating.
No offense to anybody, but everything said in the original post was pretty obvious (to me at least) or so seemingly implied such that I didn't really feel like I was gaining anything from reading the post, just kind of a quick run down of everything we've learned from the games.
I guess the part that I'm confused about is that this thread sets out to "explain" the plot...was it that (or indeed at all) difficult to follow?
I found it difficult to follow, but I feel it all depends on how you go about playing it. If you go through and talk to everyone about everything, of course you will get the whole picture. But honestly, there were some parts of these chapters I found boring and just wanted to run through quickly hoping that something more interesting would arise.
I actually haven't read through all of this original post yet, I've been meaning too, but with exams going I technically shouldn't even be browsing this forum. But once I do read it I plan on responding to it, and I will say then whether or not this post was necessary. As of right now I think it is.
You completely forgot about the fact that Elaine was too poxed to be following any agenda, probably somewhere by the end of Leviathan. That too, combined with the "Belt Buckle of Smiley Skull" could've clouded her judgement about LeChuck's plan.
If the plot were easy to follow, then there wouldn't be a three page thread about it. You should also keep in mind that this isn't the only thread dedicated to discussing the ToMI plot. You appear to be among the minority of people who understood the entire plot without explanation. For most of us, it was too vague, and way too much was left up to the player to solve. If someone was like me, and didn't think to analyze ToMI, as I assumed it would have had a simple plot. Curse, Secret and Escape all had easy to understand plots that required very little analysis. Le Chuck's Revenge was more complicated, but you could still enjoy the plot without having to do any analysis. I never thought I would ever say this, but if a large portion of the ToMI fan community has been unable to piece the story together, then Telltale may have failed to properly present the story in the game.
I don't mean to spam but... thank you... thank thank thank thank thank you.
Now that I'm done jabbering.. I will say a story is allowed to be complex, I love complex inter-twining stories. But if not presented in an appropriate manor, a complex story can come off as convoluted and conflicting. No differently than coming up with a great speech, but the speaker that reads it only reveals bits and pieces of it, perhaps not at the most appropriate of times.
I know there's been plenty of theories already about Elaine's relationship with voodoo in this thread, but.. what do you think of this one?
His theory revolves around the Voodoo Lady claiming that Elaine doesn't believe in Voodoo. He takes this to mean that Elaine is either controlled by Voodoo or she controls Voodoo.
Both theories are difficult to evaluate. Although Elaine seems to be tricked by LeChuck's voodoo belt, but it is interesting to note that when Guybrush wears it in the Thieves Guild, Guybrush seems to have some measure of control over what the person believes. The Voodoo Belt doesn't control somebody persay, but it definitely influences them - it makes them far more relaxed than they would be normally. When a large amount of Voodoo energy is pumped into her, she seems to lose all control - I don't think she would willingly have sprayed Guybrush with rootbeer, when she knows that it kills ghosts. Elaine tries to maintain her independence when being influenced by Voodoo, but she relies on Guybrush to help her when she cannot control it.
The second theory, that Elaine somehow controls Voodoo is a bit of a reach. If that were true, then I guess Elaine would be the pirate God, but I don't see any evidence for that. The power of the ring has been discussed in great detail in other threads, and nobody is sure exactly what the power of the ring is. There are a lot of unanswered questions still about ToMI, but I somehow doubt that Elaine can control all Voodoo around her.
Well it's not meant to be conscious. Sure, if Elaine could just control voodoo she'd be the pirate God. The idea is a representation of the way voodoo flows around her, really. People who exhibit a great deal of independence can sometimes divert it's flow just by standing still.
Huh. So Elaine could be unconsciously controlling Voodoo, eh? That's a theory I won't touch with a 10 foot pole until the second season begins. I'm already confused enough as it is. Although you raise a good point - the game never explicitly stated who the 'Pirate God' was. Le Chuck, Guybrush, Elaine and Morgan are all possible candidates, because all four of them came into contact with powerful Voodoo magic throughout fifth episode.
ATMachine's summary in this thread is completely satisfying apart from Elaine and Morgan's motivations. I'm sure LeChuck was the "Pirate God" for his brief consumption of the Crossroad's vague "power". I'm just trying to explain Elaine's motivations and I think her relationship with voodoo is central to why she does what she does.
Morgan, I have no idea what's with that girl. She was on your standard redemptive arc, and I really loved the way her relationship with Guybrush had evolved.. up until that final scene where I really don't understand her in the slightest. Oh well.
On the first part, I agree - but to be fair the game neither states what a 'Pirate God' is, nor does it state who the Pirate God is. Apparently only a shitload of Voodoo power is needed to become the God of Pirates - but after Le Chuck absorbed the power of the Crossroads, he didn't seem all that different. Granted, he stopped time but he always has had a ton of voodoo energy. Elaine's motivations are unclear, but I doubt Telltale is going to tell us anything aside from the fact that she was motivated by her love for Guybrush, which is true but vague.
Morgan took a fascinating turn at the end of Chapter 5 - it'll be interesting to see if she becomes the new villain. If so, we may see a new twist on an old concept - the main villain may be lusting after Guybrush, instead of Elaine this time around.
i like morgan and i don’t want her to lose her newfound friendship with guybrush. cite:
“i wold like to go pirate hunting again – present company excluded, of course”
When Guybrush greeted her with "Hey, you!".. I was really happy. They finally made peace.
And then wtf with the ending.
It's not that it's not interesting, and I'm glad she's back, it just cheapens her whole redemption arc to have her help with reviving LeChuck. Who killed her!
Well she has to know that instead of just letting the dude die, she's keeping him around in some sense, right? But it's not just that, it's also that her character development and relationship to Guybrush didn't leave me thinking that she'd abandon him after he sacrifices his life to defeat LeChuck just so she could return to the world of the living. She sacrificed her freedom so he could escape, and then later on just leaves under the assumption that bar a miracle (which is essentially what happened) Guybrush would be trapped in the Crossroads forever! It doesn't add up for me.
I think the Voodoo lady's goals have something to do with the TRUE secret of monkey island. I don't buy the robot-monkey idea from MI4.
I am a bit sad that the island of monkey island was never shown.
Well, it's not her fault. She gave up her independence. (Even though she claimed it was her reputation.)
Youch... that's too many difficult to swallow things in there.
I get the feeling that it WOULD have worked at the beginning of the game. In fact, I'm sure of it... otherwise LeChuck could have killed Guybrush.
The idea that Elaine was trying to get the Voodoo Lady's diary is patently absurd. The idea that she was going to get the bumbling human-LeChuck to help her is 10x more absurd.
I do like the idea that the Voodoo Lady is attempting to keep the universe alive via LeChuck and Guybrush -- for without them, her universe literally wouldn't exist!
Just saw this wasn't answered, and I know it might be a little late. But that chest