Sir, you are indeed a worthy intellectual opponent. This sort of battle of wits is exactly what I love about this place.
A return to form, eh? Maybe all that slaw helped.
"GET ME MORE SLAW!" Might as well cue a piratey Popeye laugh.
I did say that it held better in the first two chapters and fell apart at the end.
I had to double-check by watching the opening scene of Curse again. I don't know what game you played, but the version of Curse I played has LeChuck start off by crying at Elaine like a pitiful, lost pupppy. All uses of Voodoo are completely accidental, due to some hi-larious hijinks that find our heroes in quite the pickle! LeChuck neither planned the ring nor his resurrection, they just sort of HAPPEN due to chance and happenstance.
I was referring to the cannon ball, not even thinking about the ring. Yes, LeChuck did bumble around quite a bit. If he was going to fire the voodoo cannon ball at Elaine, he should've done that right from the get go. The best reason I can figure that he didn't (other than "he's an incompetent cartoon character") is that it required some final preparation before it could be used.
As for the ring, consider this. LeChuck had the ring in his treasure hold, all of which he planned to give to Elaine. It's entirely likely that the entire opening was a ruse. Even if the cannon ball didn't work out (except in the unlikely event that someone below decks fired an unrestrained cannon, causing him to drop it), LeChuck may have planned on giving her the treasure and waiting for her to eventually put on the ring (and assuming her pride prevented her from taking the treasure, one can assume that 1. she would prevent the islanders from getting near it and 2. she could only allow it to sit there for so long before accepting that LeChuck had no intention of returning for it), at which point he would come back and collect the statue.
Okay, even I admit I'm just pulling this out of nowhere. I'm just trying to illustrate that he may have had a deeper plan. Even so, I'll give you that he was acting pretty out of character with the "lost puppy" thing, as you put it.
As for the resurrection, I wouldn't call it happenstance. It doesn't seem that there was any catalyst for it, he just didn't choose to regenerate until he had a ship. Unless the happenstance you're referring to is that he didn't spend eternity drifting on the ocean inside his boots, but was actually picked up by someone.
Which part was classic? The bit where he is rebuffed by standard "I'm just not that into you" excuses? Or the part where he's quickly disarmed and distracted? He's goofy here, he's not being a threat so much as a loud nuisance.
Disarmed, yes, distracted, I'm not so sure. Seems to me that he was deciding to finish off Guybrush once Elaine couldn't interfere anymore. As for the "I'm just not into you" bit, Elaine's excuses were the out of character bit, and LeChuck was relentless until the cannon ball incident, which was in character for him, even if the actual dialogue wasn't.
Somehow, I'm missing the part where LeChuck is displayed as being competent in Curse. At the start, he's pathetic. In the middle, he does nothing. In the end...he's spent the whole thing being this caricature, and he then goes about fixing that by...giving a cartoon villain monologue.
Maybe his dialogue was a bit pathetic in the beginning, but also look at his actions. He had a pretty decent siege going, and if Guybrush hadn't reentered the picture, who's to say how that would've turned out?
In the middle, he doesn't exactly do much less than he did in MI2, where he just shuffles around his fortress, ordering one clearly incompetent minion to stop Guybrush from doing whatever the hell he wants (and never takes matters into his own hands after Largo's repeated failures), and ordering a filler character to craft a voodoo doll he's apparently too lazy to make himself. In Curse, he spends the middle of the game regaining his power, returning to his stronghold, and ordering another incompetent minion to locate Guybrush (though to Dinghy Dog's credit, he did a better job of completing his mission than Largo did).
And yes, the explosion of exposition at the end was not the most elegant way to handle tying the game to MI2, but a lot of his story was more fitting with his character than most of the things he did in Curse. You have to admit, it does make a lot more sense that LeChuck was directly responsible for the deaths of Marley's crew than just pure misfortune, and murdering them all is definitely in character for him.
Though the part of his story where he bulids the theme park is indeed absolutely ridiculous.
After the story, we do see LeChuck pull two repeat performances: turning Guybrush into a child and leaving him to wander a carnival, and allowing Elaine to give him the slip. Not necessarily original, but still fitting with the previous games. And for the third time, Guybrush defeats him by turning elements in the environment against him.
"More menacing than Bob"? In what way? I suppose that's a really low bar to set, but still. Murray's whole shtick is "BE SCARED OF ME....p-please? " Cartoonish caricature of a scary statement, followed by pathetic statement due to his state of being as threatening as a tablecloth.
I'm not sure how you got that feeling off Murray. My impression of him was a megalomaniac who's either too stupid or too insane to realize that as a talking skull, he really doesn't have much power to do anything. I suppose you could call that one definition of pathetic, but not in the way you're thinking.
Except I'd rather not go with what they "might be at some point in a future formed by conjecture", but rather what they are. Plunder island is a place with a chicken restaurant, a lemonade stand, a theatre, and a cartoon forest.
Right, and a jungle with a bush shaped like a dinosaur isn't cartoony at all. I did give you that the theater was out of place, and I feel Blondebeard's was pulled off as well as a chicken restaurant could've been pulled off, between the maggoty food and the backstabbing proprietor. As for the lemonade stand, I thought it was a nice touch that even the only child on the island was already a swindler.
They were definitely lazy and ridiculous, but they weren't a trio of singing barbers. Their overpowering character trait was "pirate"(or "pirate-skilled enough"), with Meathook's fear being an EXCEPTION to the otherwise pirate-y character traits rather than the freaking dominant aspects of his life. He didn't walk around, constantly talking about being horrified of parrots, never doing a pirate thing the whole time. That's a major difference between the great Monkey Island games and the mediocre ones. The pirates are first pirates with some odd quirks. The world is pirate-y with oddities and humor being an EXCEPTION, and it's all the funnier for the contrast. Curse and Escape are full-blown CARTOONS that HAPPEN TO FEATURE PIRATES, and I think that's the important distinction.
There's not much I can argue against here. The best I can say is that under the assumption that having the first island in the game be a retirement community for pirates was a mistake, turning the crew into seasoned pirates who became barbers in their retirement was about as good a way as they could've come up with to make them fit in with the rest of the island. Even assuming that the characterization of Plunder was a mistake, a bigger mistake would've been to have the crew be the only three "hardcore" pirates on an island of softer former pirates, pirate rejects, and pirates-to-be.
I would have preferred it, but not because I want Guybrush to be a kid somewhere. I just want an ending that doesn't feel like it's brushing aside the closing of Monkey 2. Does that mean that Monkey Island's "world" has to be fake and imaginary? By no means! There just should be an explanation that doesn't feel like "Well, magic!", just to re-establish a sense of status quo.
To be fair, Elaine's scene at the end of MI2 was pretty much a set-up for "well, magic!" You've got me wondering what sort of explanation would've satisfied you.
If I hate Curse, then I hate Curse.
I accept that, even if I can't agree with it. I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to convert you or anything, I'm just enjoying the "battle of wits".
Sir, you are indeed a worthy intellectual opponent. This sort of battle of wits is exactly what I love about this place.
I have to say, this is an overall really good post and I have to respect just about the entirety of it.
I did say that it held better in the first two chapters and fell apart at the end.
I was referring to the cannon ball, not even thinking about the ring. Yes, LeChuck did bumble around quite a bit. If he was going to fire the voodoo cannon ball at Elaine, he should've done that right from the get go. The best reason I can figure that he didn't (other than "he's an incompetent cartoon character") is that it required some final preparation before it could be used.
As for the ring, consider this. LeChuck had the ring in his treasure hold, all of which he planned to give to Elaine. It's entirely likely that the entire opening was a ruse. Even if the cannon ball didn't work out (except in the unlikely event that someone below decks fired an unrestrained cannon, causing him to drop it), LeChuck may have planned on giving her the treasure and waiting for her to eventually put on the ring (and assuming her pride prevented her from taking the treasure, one can assume that 1. she would prevent the islanders from getting near it and 2. she could only allow it to sit there for so long before accepting that LeChuck had no intention of returning for it), at which point he would come back and collect the statue.
Okay, even I admit I'm just pulling this out of nowhere. I'm just trying to illustrate that he may have had a deeper plan. Even so, I'll give you that he was acting pretty out of character with the "lost puppy" thing, as you put it.
I suppose I mostly agree, and it's more a matter of "how much it bugs you" here. LeChuck wasn't in character, and the voice didn't sound in the least menacing to me. I didn't get it. Everything was funny and all, but it was less like meeting an old friend and more like meeting a nice person who also happened to be wearing a suit fashioned from your old friend's flesh. Very unsettling.
As for the resurrection, I wouldn't call it happenstance. It doesn't seem that there was any catalyst for it, he just didn't choose to regenerate until he had a ship. Unless the happenstance you're referring to is that he didn't spend eternity drifting on the ocean inside his boots, but was actually picked up by someone.
This is really relatively minor, and I actually have little problem with the finding of the boots scene. It's just that, well, why? In Secret, he was a ghost because he died. In LeChuck's Revenge, he was a zombie because he was "brought back from the dead" by voodoo. Voodoo, zombies, you know. It was odd to revive a ghost as a zombie, but that was half the fun. But his transformation into a demon felt...I dunno. Shallow. The last two games felt like they were going "Forms!" without feeling the need to explain anything about WHY. Tales actually did a great job with this(well, other than explaining the Walrus form...but I'll blame LucasArts on that one =P).
Disarmed, yes, distracted, I'm not so sure. Seems to me that he was deciding to finish off Guybrush once Elaine couldn't interfere anymore. As for the "I'm just not into you" bit, Elaine's excuses were the out of character bit, and LeChuck was relentless until the cannon ball incident, which was in character for him, even if the actual dialogue wasn't.
Eh, I suppose so, on a broad level. The problem is that he goes from attack to disarmed in a moment, gives up, and sends Guybrush to the brink. You don't get all of 2 seconds worth of time to fear for his life, and LeChuck is such a moron(throughout the first scene especially), I never felt threatened. It feels more likely that he'll trip over a banana peel and stab himself, starting the circle of reincarnation all over again. Or he'll say "DRAT! WHY DID I PACK THE RUBBER SWORDS?!"
Maybe his dialogue was a bit pathetic in the beginning, but also look at his actions. He had a pretty decent siege going, and if Guybrush hadn't reentered the picture, who's to say how that would've turned out?
The conjecture feels a bit empty. Maybe if we saw him actually sink at least a single ship, rather than get held back by one person manning 10 canons at once?
In the middle, he doesn't exactly do much less than he did in MI2, where he just shuffles around his fortress, ordering one clearly incompetent minion to stop Guybrush from doing whatever the hell he wants (and never takes matters into his own hands after Largo's repeated failures), and ordering a filler character to craft a voodoo doll he's apparently too lazy to make himself. In Curse, he spends the middle of the game regaining his power, returning to his stronghold, and ordering another incompetent minion to locate Guybrush (though to Dinghy Dog's credit, he did a better job of completing his mission than Largo did).
It's true that LeChuck has typically spent the middle of the games pacing around his base, giving orders. Gotta say, Largo's a bit more threatening than Dinghy Dog, whatever the success rate.
Also, I was always under the impression that LeChuck couldn't make a voodoo doll on his own. I just kind of assumed he was a bit inept at the actual rituals of voodoo, and he needed his own voodoo lady equivalent.
And yes, the explosion of exposition at the end was not the most elegant way to handle tying the game to MI2, but a lot of his story was more fitting with his character than most of the things he did in Curse. You have to admit, it does make a lot more sense that LeChuck was directly responsible for the deaths of Marley's crew than just pure misfortune, and murdering them all is definitely in character for him.
I don't think it's any more sensible. It feels almost a bit too "neat" to me, but it's definitely a livable thing that LeChuck actually went out and KILLED SOMEBODY at least.
I'm not sure how you got that feeling off Murray. My impression of him was a megalomaniac who's either too stupid or too insane to realize that as a talking skull, he really doesn't have much power to do anything. I suppose you could call that one definition of pathetic, but not in the way you're thinking.
I dunno, his secondary statement always sounded a bit defeated to me. You know, "Why do you have to take the fun out of everything", "Okay, ROLL!", et cetera.
Right, and a jungle with a bush shaped like a dinosaur isn't cartoony at all. I did give you that the theater was out of place, and I feel Blondebeard's was pulled off as well as a chicken restaurant could've been pulled off, between the maggoty food and the backstabbing proprietor. As for the lemonade stand, I thought it was a nice touch that even the only child on the island was already a swindler.
The thing I don't understand, though, is that people are fine with civilian pirates...when they're in Curse. Suddenly, though, when Escape is filled with pirates that are not pirates by profession, and when things take a turn for the horribly absurd, and when the puzzles are poor rip-offs...NOW, with Escape, they're despised. I just think the idea of a chicken restaurant, "El Pollo Diablo", and a lemonade stand don't work. Also, I hated the kid's voice, so that might not have helped. The actual puzzles around him were actually the better ones, too, it was just kind of..why?
There's not much I can argue against here. The best I can say is that under the assumption that having the first island in the game be a retirement community for pirates was a mistake, turning the crew into seasoned pirates who became barbers in their retirement was about as good a way as they could've come up with to make them fit in with the rest of the island. Even assuming that the characterization of Plunder was a mistake, a bigger mistake would've been to have the crew be the only three "hardcore" pirates on an island of softer former pirates, pirate rejects, and pirates-to-be.
Considering the idea of pirates whose business cards don't read "Pirate" is universally hated in Escape, it might be nice to see some consistency here. The whole idea sort of sounds right on paper, but when you go to execute it you realize you've kind of just set up a resort rather than a cool pirate location like a bar, or a forest, or underground, or a ghost ship.
To be fair, Elaine's scene at the end of MI2 was pretty much a set-up for "well, magic!" You've got me wondering what sort of explanation would've satisfied you.
It can be magic, though, is the thing. The issue is in execution. It felt like they were trying to get the MI2 ending "out fo the way". When writing a story, you don't try to drop story elements. When you're reading a series of books, you don't get to the end of one, just to start the next and have the big event of the last chapter get more or less ignored until the end, just to have the main antagonist reveal it was a trick. It's bad storytelling, because it was intended to nullify the second game's ending without organically integrating it into the story, because doing that might alienate the new audience.
Wedding Daze: caught this on TV at a relative's house; it was so horrible we couldn't stop. Ridiculous plot, ideas, acting, the whole-shebang, even for a romantic comedy. Just, done 100 times worse. It also has the world's most random, well, sex scene, I guess. "Jason said he was coming over." "Jason said what?" "That he was coming over." "That he was..." (scared) "...coming..." Then there's use of whipped cream. Yeah.
Though, nothing is half as bad as the crap Aaron Seltzer and Jason Friedman put out. I think they've cleared "terrible". They've come close to creating a new genre: "comedy horror: or comedy so bad you'll think it was a horror movie".
Tales is excellent, but some of the puzzles were a little too far removed from the story (the most obvious "I don't understand how this relates to the plot at all" bit being Nipperkin's). That, unfortunately, degrades it a bit, making my choice Sam and Max: Season Two (which also had the problem, but did have the excellent Chariots of the Dogs, as well as the greatest epilogue in any game ever made, ever).
You missed the point, where people don't walk around appending "Maybe, in my opinion, though I may be wrong and it's just my personal opinion" to everything they say. Not only does it make the person sound like they have no confidence in themselves or what they're saying. Nobody always puts the syntactical equivalent of giant neon signs in their sentences to declare "THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION, PLEASE DO NOT BE OFFENDED", because most people have the ability to tell the difference.
I have beat it. I'm just saying it's ridiculously hard. Now it's four years later and I'm playing it again, and now I'm stuck.
Except it's supposed to be a little hard. Generally, if you're breezing through a game, it's an interactive storybook rather than a game. Disney has a really extensive line of those.
Clearly, based on what I said, this is the only logical conclusion. I totally agree with you.
[...]
I prefer CMI over LCR; empirically, I must prefer Phantom Menace over Citizen Kane. That's so ingenious it flirts with retarded. Or vice versa. Whicever applies.
I don't think empirically means what you think it means. Something along the lines of "ergo" would probably go better in there. Whatever the case:
First of all, the statement wasn't an answer to you, but to Chyron8472. And to keep from the same confusion arising with Chyron, I'd like to mention that the statement is due to the fact that the TECHNOLOGY used is given higher credence than actual design. For example, Citizen Kane and Wizard of Oz were made in the same year, and yet few film historians will say that Wizard of Oz is better than Citizen Kane simply because it has color. It is the same way with games and their design: if Curse does nothing new but add the new things that are in most games of the time, there are no risks being taken. And if non-interactive movie portions, which make up all of 15 minutes of time in total, are the big innovation of Curse...I'm not exactly impressed.
This sums-up your attitude. I think you know it's a great game, can't think of a halfway usable argument and then just drunkenly stumble across any excuses you can find. You've come across as the "I hate that Ron Gilbert was not involved in this" type. Which is why I will not bother arguing with you anymore.
I don't get this idea. Are my expressed opinions considered a sham to...well, certainly not to make people like me, so that's not going to work. Where's the benefit there? Perhaps you think I derive pleasure have having opinions different than others, and I consistently reprogram myself to fight against majority opinion. That I know that what I emphatically express is wrong and stupid, but I continue to proclaim the opposite because...what, I get my jollies like that or something? Perhaps you see me as some form of persistent troll. Whatever mechanism you've devised to explain my mind as a farce or self-delusion isn't accurate, though. In any case, I really doubt the problem was any singular, important man that could have turned the tide of production to something amazing. No, it was simply the faults of creating Curse after years with the intention of pandering to people that are new to the franchise. Someone else possibly could have done the job better, but the thing is that Curse was doomed from the start to fail as a direct sequel.
Neither did CMI, but you're clearly stuck on that point. LCR was the game with the "lit match in a room of dynamite", which I don't need to tell you is a staple of Saturday Morning Cartoons. It's best not to get your arguments mixed.
The problem is that these are entirely disparate from the real issue. A cartoonish joke is completely different from cartoonish storytelling. CMI always plays it safe. CMI's characters are loud caricatures, the story is a weak and dramatically-deprived shell, and the atmosphere is far too bright to evoke any real sense of reality and drama.
It's about what Monkey Island atmosphere is supposed to be. Despite the bizarre craziness around you, you should be able to feel like you're on an important adventure the whole time. It's hard for me to do that in Tales when everything's hopping around to say "Hey! Hey you! Look at me I'm goofy!", and the villain is a hopeless buffoon.
I still say that the arguments against Curse are grasping at straws.
I really don't think things like the entire personalities of the characters, the atmosphere of the world, copied puzzles, and poor storytelling can be called "strings". I'd call them "major, game-breaking issues".
Call me a Monkey Island fanboy if you want. I'm immune to it here.
I'm pretty sure I haven't called anybody a Monkey island fanboy in this thread, so that designation's all on you, buddy.
Lemme see.
"I Stab You - Oh, hey you are human now", "UNHOLY THIS - I am undead now", "I plunge a sponge in a rift - I am a demon now!" is an extremely good explenation, unlike "I have been blown up by a cannonball made of pure voodoo, reincarnating as some evil demon being"?
I ain't quite seeing it.
The problem is that he goes from attack to disarmed in a moment, gives up, and sends Guybrush to the brink.
I suppose he hasn't learned, because in ToMI he stills goes forward with plan A (Voodoo Bomb, Monkeys) instead of taking care of Guybrush.
Once again I ask, why is ToMI allowed, and CMI crucified for this?
Maybe if we saw him actually sink at least a single ship, rather than get held back by one person manning 10 canons at once?
I am pretty sure before that there's an "Incoming.... aaaargh" and everyone flees while LeChuck blows up a cannon preceeding that.
The thing I don't understand, though, is that people are fine with civilian pirates...when they're in Curse.
And LCR apparently, so much you don't even mention them. There is a laundry pirate after all, and a spitting contest and who knows what else I cannot remember just now.
Suddenly, though, when Escape is filled with pirates that are not pirates by profession, and when things take a turn for the horribly absurd, and when the puzzles are poor rip-offs...NOW, with Escape, they're despised.
You said it yourself. It took a turn for the horribly absurd. Personally, I can't see that myself in CMI. The barbers for example still act deadly serious, even if that can bring a smile to the gamers face by their singing, Guybrush comments etc.
but when you go to execute it you realize you've kind of just set up a resort rather than a cool pirate location like a bar, or a forest, or underground, or a ghost ship.
Or a souvenir shop, a big party, a woodcutter's worship, a library...
When you're reading a series of books, you don't get to the end of one, just to start the next and have the big event of the last chapter get more or less ignored until the end, just to have the main antagonist reveal it was a trick.
Actually, I would totally not mind if I hated the ending of the previous book (and hate is no understatement for the ending of LCR). Rather have it somewhat ignore it that actually continuing on to it, ruining the entire series, don't you think. That's probably why ToMI didn't continue EMI's story but started fresh.
Also, I once again wonder why, here too, ToMI gets no flak for what you think are horrible, horrible flaws in CMI.
A cartoonish joke is completely different from cartoonish storytelling.
Hmmm... are you sure you're not confusing "storytelling" and "drawing style". Just because it's drawn the way it is doesn't automatically make the characters act as cartoons with a similar style.
CMI's characters are loud caricatures
And LCR's aren't? The cook, stan, wally, largo, the woodcutter, elaine, the cook of the mansion, I could probably go on. The fact a large portion of actors in CMI come from LCR and/or SMI should already tell much.
the atmosphere is far too bright to evoke any real sense of reality and drama.
Bright colorscemes and are completely unrelated to lack of drama. Think LOST for example, set on a tropical island for crying out loud.
I once again, like a broken record, ask why ToMI is forgiven for this, yet CMI crucified. ToMI isn't dark at all. Yet it contrains drama and a sense of realism. Oh, just like CMI. Even if it's all showered in a comedy sauce.
Or did you hate ToMI after all...?
It's hard for me to do that in Tales when everything's hopping around to say "Hey! Hey you! Look at me I'm goofy!", and the villain is a hopeless buffoon.
Oh, nevermind. It looks like you already answered my question and dislike ToMI too. Sucks to be you, since it looks unlikely the next MI won't be season 2 and pretty much like ToMI as a result...
I think the arguing in this thread can pretty much be summed up with "do you like the cartoony turn that the series took with Curse, y/n?" Unfortunately for the naysayers however, I'm pretty sure that the majority of fans would vote 'yes'. Curse managed to bring new fans into the series while also keeping at least SOME of the old fans happy, and that's quite an achievement. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's been playing the games since 1991 and still liked Curse, but then again that might be because when Curse came out, I was still young enough to sit back and enjoy the game rather than sit back stroking my beard while analysing the plot and metaphors and judging them against LCR.
Now, I'm sure the next question will make some folk go 'are you retarded?' but if I actually cared what Internet People thought of me, I wouldn't write slashfic. Why exactly is LCR lauded as "omg greatest adventure game EVAR!!!111one1"? Don't get me wrong, I love LCR, but it's certainly not the best adventure game I've ever played. I like Secret better. I like Curse better. I like Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis better. And having played through all of these games recently, that's still my opinion.
Maybe it's because I first played LCR on an Amiga 600, and had to change the bloody disk every time the screen changed, maybe it's because I didn't like how Guybrush had become King of the Douchebags, maybe it's because I was scared shitless of Zombie LeChuck when the game came out, but I just don't think LCR should be the benchmark against which all the other games in the series should be judged. (if anything, it should be Secret) And the ending. I definitely wasn't going "gee, I wonder what kind of clever explanation Ron Gilbert has for this situation!", I was going "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT MEANT TO BE?!" No closure, no explanation, it was just a mindfuck that was only partially covered by the cut back to Elaine hinting that there was a spell involved during the credits.
I read an article by Someone On The Internet (can't remember who or where) that theorised that the ending to LCR was basically Ron Gilbert trying to make sure that they'd never be able to continue the series without him. That might be an unfair accusation, but it's still plausible. And to be brutally honest, his claims that he had the series all mapped out always smacked of revisionism to me. Suuuuuure you did Ron, you're not just saying that because they have managed to continue it without you. I could be wrong of course, but at the same time I don't really care.
Anyway, back to the point I've completely digressed from: yes, LCR is a great game, but I've never thought it was the GREATEST ADVENTURE GAME EVAR. Maybe its story is more complex (and naturally more complexity = better than *eyeroll*) than Curse's, its villains were definitely scarier, the tone was darker, the puzzles were harder etc etc, but I still know which game I enjoyed better, and it wasn't LCR. And if that makes me an idiot who doesn't appreciate true adventure games then hey, at least I'm a happy idiot.
I think the arguing in this thread can pretty much be summed up with "do you like the cartoony turn that the series took with Curse, y/n?" Unfortunately for the naysayers however, I'm pretty sure that the majority of fans would vote 'yes'. Curse managed to bring new fans into the series while also keeping at least SOME of the old fans happy, and that's quite an achievement. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's been playing the games since 1991 and still liked Curse, but then again that might be because when Curse came out, I was still young enough to sit back and enjoy the game rather than sit back stroking my beard while analysing the plot and metaphors and judging them against LCR.
Why exactly is LCR lauded as "omg greatest adventure game EVAR!!!111one1"? Don't get me wrong, I love LCR, but it's certainly not the best adventure game I've ever played. I like Secret better. I like Curse better. I like Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis better. And having played through all of these games recently, that's still my opinion.
I just don't think LCR should be the benchmark against which all the other games in the series should be judged. (if anything, it should be Secret) And the ending. I definitely wasn't going "gee, I wonder what kind of clever explanation Ron Gilbert has for this situation!", I was going "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT MEANT TO BE?!" No closure, no explanation, it was just a mindfuck that was only partially covered by the cut back to Elaine hinting that there was a spell involved during the credits.
I read an article by Someone On The Internet (can't remember who or where) that theorised that the ending to LCR was basically Ron Gilbert trying to make sure that they'd never be able to continue the series without him. That might be an unfair accusation, but it's still plausible. And to be brutally honest, his claims that he had the series all mapped out always smacked of revisionism to me. Suuuuuure you did Ron, you're not just saying that because they have managed to continue it without you. I could be wrong of course, but at the same time I don't really care.
More likely he was on Meth when he thought of the idea in the first place. That would make more sense, considering the whole ending of the game makes no sense at all.
Anyway, back to the point I've completely digressed from: yes, LCR is a great game, but I've never thought it was the GREATEST ADVENTURE GAME EVAR. Maybe its story is more complex (and naturally more complexity = better than *eyeroll*) than Curse's, its villains were definitely scarier, the tone was darker, the puzzles were harder etc etc, but I still know which game I enjoyed better, and it wasn't LCR. And if that makes me an idiot who doesn't appreciate true adventure games then hey, at least I'm a happy idiot.
Why do people say that LCR was better cuz it was darker? I don't get that.
...why is it that the posts on this thread are getting looooonger and loooonger and....
Everything was funny and all, but it was less like meeting an old friend and more like meeting a nice person who also happened to be wearing a suit fashioned from your old friend's flesh. Very unsettling.
Actually, that sounds exactly like the sort of thing LeChuck would do.
I don't think it's any more sensible. It feels almost a bit too "neat" to me, but it's definitely a livable thing that LeChuck actually went out and KILLED SOMEBODY at least.[/quote
At least it works better than "oh, I had Ozzie kill off Marley, so now I owe him one."
The thing I don't understand, though, is that people are fine with civilian pirates...when they're in Curse. Suddenly, though, when Escape is filled with pirates that are not pirates by profession, and when things take a turn for the horribly absurd, and when the puzzles are poor rip-offs...NOW, with Escape, they're despised. I just think the idea of a chicken restaurant, "El Pollo Diablo", and a lemonade stand don't work. Also, I hated the kid's voice, so that might not have helped. The actual puzzles around him were actually the better ones, too, it was just kind of..why?
Well, you can blame Gary Coleman for the voice. And I think the reason that people accept the pirates in Curse but not in Escape is that even if they're more domesticated, they're still more authentic than most of what you see in Escape. Maybe some of it is the art style, but a lot of it is that everything in Escape has a more commercial feel to it. Particularly the law offices, the bank, and the three establishments on Jambalaya Island. Lawyers, banks, franchise coffee shops, theme restaurants, and micro groggeries not only fail to capture any sort of piratey feel whatsoever, they feel out of place in the games' time period, not to mention Stan trying to sell freaking timeshares. This is a series known for silly anachronisms in unexpected places, but those locations are so prominent and so out of place that the suspension of disbelief totally disintegrates. Maybe the inhabitants of Plunder don't really act very piratey, but at least you get the feeling that most of them have either been or tried to be pirates in the past, and none of them are very good at their other endeavors. And none of them are running a damn perfume stall.
More likely he was on Meth when he thought of the idea in the first place. That would make more sense, considering the whole ending of the game makes no sense at all.
Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids.
Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island was very dissapointing.
Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids.
Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island was very dissapointing.
-.-
It's a STUPID ENDING. It's just one big "what the f*ck?!"... I mean, seriously. Ambiguity be damned. To leave the storyline hanging like that with NO explanation why the carnival was even necessary to the story... for 6 years the story had ended that way.
Hell no, it doesn't make sense. What do you mean "like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong?" The reason why I dislike it is because it makes no sense. There is no connection between the carnival/corridors and the rest of the story of MI2. LeChuck saying he's Guybrush's brother is nothing more than using a Star Wars reference as a lame plot twist (I love Empire Strikes Back, but that reference was eye-rolling.) You also realize that LeChuck basically wins. At least he's defeated at the end of EMI, even with EMI's other faults.
If anyone says that a better explanation than CMI's would have been that Guybrush really is a kid in a theme park, I will kill you with a rubber chicken and a 50 foot tall ball of twine. There's already a thread or 5 about that theory, and a large number of people, including myself, have said that it might have been okay if it was part of Ron's trilogy, but now that Monkey Island has been around for so long that many of us have grown up with it... making it so that even Guybrush knows it's fake would ruin the whole blasted thing.
It's a STUPID ENDING. It's just one big "what the f*ck?!"... I mean, seriously. Ambiguity be damned. To leave the storyline hanging like that with NO explanation why the carnival was even necessary to the story... for 6 years the story had ended that way.
The best endings to all works of fiction are the endings that force the reader/viewer/player to think. If Guybrush had simply defeated LeChuck at the end of MI2, married Elaine and found a valuable treasure called Big Whoop, how many people would still care about the story? How many people would still remember the ending, almost 20 years after the game came out? MI2 reinforced the Monkey Island franchises mysterious and secretive atmosphere, giving the players a sense that there were more going on in this world than they were told, which has fuelled discussions and debates about the game for many, many years, and I believe has been largely responsible for the loyal MI fanbase that still existed a decade after the last game was relased. The MI world is filled with secrets and mysteries, and CMI ended up almost dispelling that atmosphere.
Hell no, it doesn't make sense. There is no connection between the carnival/corridors and the rest of the story of MI2. LeChuck saying he's Guybrush's brother is nothing more than using a Star Wars reference as a lame plot twist (I love Empire Strikes Back, but that reference was eye-rolling.) You also realize that LeChuck basically wins. At least he's defeated at the end of EMI, even with EMI's other faults.
Hence the title: LeChuck's Revenge. Besides, not all good works of fiction has to end with the hero defeating the villain. Ever read Brave New World? The Trial? Very few of my favourite books ends with the protagonist simply defeating the antagonist and going on to live happily ever after. I'll leave that to big-budget Hollywood movies aiming to please as large audiences as possible.
If anyone says that a better explanation than CMI's would have been that Guybrush really is a kid in a theme park, I will kill them.
Wow.
There's already a thread or 5 about that, and a large number of people, including myself, have said that it might have been okay if it was part of Ron's trilogy, but now that Monkey Island has been around for so long that many of us have grown up with it... making it so that even Guybrush knows it's fake would ruin the whole blasted thing.
Although Guybrush being a kid in a theme park is an absolutely credible answer to what happens at the end of MI2, that is not the only possible alternative to LeChuck building a theme park on Monkey Island. There have been several well though-out and sound theories by fans over the years, that are much more interesting and exciting than CMI's "carneval cop-out".
The best endings to all works of fiction are the endings that force the reader/viewer/player to think.
And the worst are the ones that make the viewer/gamer go... WHAT THE FUCK?
Think Indiana Jones IV, LCR, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, Fahrenheit.
Do people remember their "endings" because they were good? No... because they are horrible ways to end something decent (well, excluding Indiana Jones here, the videogames are).
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.
How many people would still remember the ending, almost 20 years after the game came out?
True, a well-done ending would have been forgetten sooner. The only way we still talk about it, more than anything else of MI2 is because it's such a darn let-down that it is hard to forget.
MI2 reinforced the Monkey Island franchises mysterious and secretive atmosphere
There was one before MI2? I cannot seem to recall.
Actually, I cannot recall any of the sort in MI2 either, and the ending doesn't give me "mysterious and secretive" more than, well... WTF?
which has fuelled discussions and debates about the game for many, many years, and I believe has been largely responsible for the loyal MI fanbase that still existed a decade after the last game was relased.
Have to agree a bit here. For example, KOTOR2 wouldn't have been talked about still if the original wasn't horribly mutilated and defiled. Hmmm, does that ring a bell with MI2's ending?
There have been several well though-out and sound theories by fans over the years, that are much more interesting and exciting than CMI's "carneval cop-out".
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.
I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.
I don't think quality would be much of an issue to worry about with telltale. It seems that their work is a labour of love at times. When you see all the extras the sam and max sets came with, and the many little side jokes and things added into TOMI, it makes me think that this company would be far too proud to release a TOMI2 that didn't live up to the first.
One thing though... I don't like endings. I dunno why, I just like to think there's something more. Part of me felt a tad disappointed at the end of Rise of the Pirate God, right up until that very last clip. If they do do a TOMI2, I wouldn't want it to finish off the Monkey Island story. I would want it to leave that last little Monkey Island puzzle that will never be solved, as TOMI did.
And the worst are the ones that make the viewer/gamer go... WHAT THE FUCK?
Think Indiana Jones IV, LCR, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, Fahrenheit.
Do people remember their "endings" because they were good? No... because they are horrible ways to end something decent (well, excluding Indiana Jones here, the videogames are).
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.
Only people who weren't paying attention to the details could have been completely blindsided by Guybrush and LeChuck emerging as kids in a theme park. Hints that the Monkey Island world was basically a theme park was dropped thoroughout both MI1 and MI2, and everything that happens after Guybrush falls into the corridors below Dinky Island (Disney Land?) is a set-up to the final revelation.
The ending is really no different than, say, the final revelation in The 6th Sense, which also comes as a shock at first, but makes sense when viewed in context.
True, a well-done ending would have been forgetten sooner. The only way we still talk about it, more than anything else of MI2 is because it's such a darn let-down that it is hard to forget.
The ending of MI2 being a huge let-down was never really a widely held opinion until a few years after CMI, when the post CMI fans discovered MI2 and felt cheated because the game didn't end comfortably and light-hearted. For me, the "darn let-down" was the way CMI handled MI2's ending.
There was one before MI2? I cannot seem to recall.
Remember the titular Secret of Monkey Island?
Actually, I cannot recall any of the sort in MI2 either, and the ending doesn't give me "mysterious and secretive" more than, well... WTF?
Yeah, you keep repeating that you were completely taken amiss by MI2's ending, and that it is "WTF" (not an adjective, by the way). For starters, I don't see the conflict between an ending being surprising and an ending being mysterious. Also, there is no correlation between an ending being surprising or mysterious and and ending being bad.
Have to agree a bit here. For example, KOTOR2 wouldn't have been talked about still if the original wasn't horribly mutilated and defiled. Hmmm, does that ring a bell with MI2's ending?
Hmm, horribly mutilated? Defiled? No, that does definately not ring a bell with MI2's ending. You might be mistaking your own dissapointment over the unconventional twist at the end of MI2 for an ending which is actually badly written.
I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.
Hints that the Monkey Island world was basically a theme park was dropped thoroughout both MI1 and MI2
Yeah, I must have failed to pay any attention playing, since I recall none of them at all until the end of MI2. So, again, humour me. Tell some.
Also, I wonder why why you think MI would be all "mysterious and deep" if the story itself made it out it was all a themepark attraction. PoTC doesn't refer to the attraction in any way either, does it?
The ending is really no different than, say, the final revelation in The 6th Sense, which also comes as a shock at first, but makes sense when viewed in context.
I looked in context, and... well... found none to be quite frankly. Except maybe Walt the dog, but that's only because it was stolen from PoTC's ride.
The ending of MI2 being a huge let-down was never really a widely held opinion until a few years after CMI, when the post CMI fans discovered MI2 and felt cheated because the game didn't end comfortably and light-hearted. For me, the "darn let-down" was the way CMI handled MI2's ending.
Well, I don't know about "widely held" but I already had it when experiencing it, and that was before CMI was released at all...
Remember the titular Secret of Monkey Island?
Nope, not like you do apparently. No dark deep plot full of mystery there.
For starters, I don't see the conflict between an ending being surprising and an ending being mysterious. Also, there is no correlation between an ending being surprising or mysterious and and ending being bad.
I didn't say "suprising". A surprising ending would be good. I said "WTF". A WTF ending would be bad.
I would be perfectly fine with an ending being not what I expect, but quality. But not when the ending suddenly totally opposes the good buildup, like yellowish AI thingies (Fahrenheit), a total absent of teammates and not resolving the plot (KOTOR2) or... saying it was all a theme-park, nullifying whatever happened at the plot (MI2). Sure, it's a little more original than 'it was just a dream', but in no regards better than that...
Read the thread. I already did.
I read the thread. I even checked all your posts just now you said this. And all I can see are 2 examples; one being Guybrush really is a modern kid (which would TOTALLY suck for MI3) and CMI's storyline. No other examples given.
Yeah, I must have failed to pay any attention playing
Ok
, since I recall none of them at all until the end of MI2. So, again, humour me. Tell some.
Also, I wonder why why you think MI would be all "mysterious and deep" if the story itself made it out it was all a themepark attraction. PoTC doesn't refer to the attraction in any way either, does it?
I looked in context, and... well... found none to be quite frankly. Except maybe Walt the dog, but that's only because it was stolen from PoTC's ride.
Off the top of my head, in addition to the obvious Walt (Disney) the dog reference:
T-shirt as a prize for finding the treasure
T-shirt as a prize for defeating the sword master
There is a vending machine at Stan's place
"Staff Only"-door on Melee
Wiener hut on Scabb Island
The treehouses on Booty Island are nearly identical to the Swiss Family Treehouse in Disneyland
Big Whoop turns out to be an E-ticket, a ticket that gives entrance to theme parks after hours
Dinky Island = Disneyland
Everything that happens after you meet LeChuck at the end of MI2 takes place in theme park maintainance tunnels
I didn't say "suprising". A surprising ending would be good. I said "WTF". A WTF ending would be bad.
WTF is still not an adjective, and I think the distinction between a surprising ending and a "WTF ending" is pretty vague, only distinct in your mind because you dislike how MI2 ends. WTF is a pretty common exclamation when you are surprised by something.
I would be perfectly fine with an ending being not what I expect, but quality. But not when the ending suddenly totally opposes the good buildup, like yellowish AI thingies (Fahrenheit), a total absent of teammates and not resolving the plot (KOTOR2) or... saying it was all a theme-park, nullifying whatever happened at the plot (MI2). Sure, it's a little more original than 'it was just a dream', but in no regards better than that...
"Better" is a subjective term. I think the worst possible solution to an interesting and surprising ending like MI2's, was to blow it all off and turn LeChuck into a buffoonish cartoon villain with a theme park. If you take a look around the old Scummbar.com or some of the old Monkey Island forums (or even around here) you'll find tons of interesting theories as to what happens at the end of the game, several of them preferable to CMI's solution.
I read the thread. I even checked all your posts just now you said this. And all I can see are 2 examples; one being Guybrush really is a modern kid (which would TOTALLY suck for MI3) and CMI's storyline. No other examples given.
I get the feeling that this is all an "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" thing for you Bagge. Nothing personal, but you're not going to convince any of the rest of us that MI2 had a good ending, as it also seems that we can't convince you that it sucked and that CMI did the best it could to explain it.
edit: Nor will I ever understand why anyone could hate CMI as Rather Dashing does.
I get the feeling that this is all an "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" thing for you Bagge. Nothing personal, but you're not going to convince any of the rest of us that MI2 had a good ending, as it also seems that we can't convince you that it sucked and that CMI did the best it could to explain it.
That makes very little sense. How is my opinion on MI2 any more "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" than yours or Hassad Hunters?
Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.
:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.
:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.
:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.
: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.
Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.
:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.
:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.
:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.
: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.
See, although I don't neccesarily agree with that theory, this is the sort of cool speculation and theories that MI2 inspires.
Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.
:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.
:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.
:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.
: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.
Yeah, that's what I said before, you only got 2 theories posted, and one is CMI's. You mentioned many other theories. Just 1 is pretty poor.
Also @ OzzieMonkey: So, you're saying the entire story of MI is made up by a lunatic in a madhouse?
I certainly hope not, that sounds pretty stupid. Maybe you guys would think that an epic ending, but I would pretty much think if the story of MI would be ruined like that.
"Oh, everything you did. Didn't made a darn difference. It was all a story in someone's head. Forget epicness! Who cares about that now, right?"
Lemme see.
"I Stab You - Oh, hey you are human now", "UNHOLY THIS - I am undead now", "I plunge a sponge in a rift - I am a demon now!" is an extremely good explenation, unlike "I have been blown up by a cannonball made of pure voodoo, reincarnating as some evil demon being"?
I ain't quite seeing it.
Someone was apparently sleepwalking through the entire thing. LeChuck turned human due to an improvised Voodoo spell. It was intended to kill or vanquish LeChuck, so the spell was already intended to do SOMETHING. But one or a few of Guybrush's improv ingredients didn't work quite as well as the real thing, and we went from killing LeChuck to making him mortal. Certainly a step back, but hardly inexplicable, especially considering Guybrush's history with improvised voodoo ingredients(the Largo doll, for instance, only working at a distance).
I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue the assertion that BEING MURDERED makes you DIE. It's sort of self-evident. When you are killed, you die. In a world filled with ghosts, you become a ghost when you die. Hell, Curse had LeChuck building a ghost army by killing people, so even if you dismiss the plots of every other game in the series(as you seem to), and thus consider Curse to be the only valid and intelligent entry in the series history, then Curse does explain that you DIE when you are KILLED, and when you die in the Monkey Island universe you become a ghost. That I had to type this makes my head hurt.
The sponge is a Voodoo Sponge. It absorbs Voodoo. It was placed at the nexus of all Voodoo. Absorbing lots of Voodoo makes you powerful. The magic was passive, just sitting there, waiting to be taken in the purest possible form.
On the other hand, being blown up by a voodoo-powered weapon that is intended to kill and destroy, rather than act as either passive storage or an active aid, it just seems silly. It wasn't planned, LeChuck came back because he bungled into it, like some incompetent moron stumbling toward success.
I suppose he hasn't learned, because in ToMI he stills goes forward with plan A (Voodoo Bomb, Monkeys) instead of taking care of Guybrush.
Once again I ask, why is ToMI allowed, and CMI crucified for this?
Certainly, subterfuge and evil plots are a good deal different than "throw him in a box downstairs". And when he DOES reveal himself, and he's now the active and known antagonist, he's smashing Guybrush around the ship, just like the classic confrontations of the first two games.
So, Curse is crucified for that because they're completely different situations.
I am pretty sure before that there's an "Incoming.... aaaargh" and everyone flees while LeChuck blows up a cannon preceeding that.
Right. No real damage done, and LeChuck continues sobbing and being, in general, harmless. I suppose you could consider "he broke my cannon" to being equivalent to real damage and loss of human life, but I just don't see the equity.
And LCR apparently, so much you don't even mention them. There is a laundry pirate after all, and a spitting contest and who knows what else I cannot remember just now.
Wait, so spitting contests is a civilian profession now? Do pirates not spit? I'm sorry, I don't see this thing as something that doesn't fit.
Mad Marty is somewhat similar, I suppose. But I can probably forgive the guy, considering his huge eyeglasses and inability to hear. I'm also pretty sure he's not actually a pirate, considering he doesn't accept bribes. It's kind of like accusing Stan of being a pirate due to the hat. They're just themed shopkeeps, probably dealing with mostly pirate clients.
You said it yourself. It took a turn for the horribly absurd. Personally, I can't see that myself in CMI. The barbers for example still act deadly serious, even if that can bring a smile to the gamers face by their singing, Guybrush comments etc.
A freaking theatre troupe. Banjo-dueling. The other two barbers are mostly fine, except they're barbers. And they sing. Possibly the Cabana Boy, though as an employee of the resort he's probably not actually a retired pirate. The owner of a chicken restaurant. The island has a freaking kid selling lemonade on it.
Or a souvenir shop, a big party, a woodcutter's worship, a library...
Okay, I can see you thinking that Mad Marty is meant to be a pirate, but the LIBRARY LADY?
I'm pretty sure that the rest of them are just those things, not "pirates that do those things and have those act as their overriding defining character trait".
Actually, I would totally not mind if I hated the ending of the previous book (and hate is no understatement for the ending of LCR). Rather have it somewhat ignore it that actually continuing on to it, ruining the entire series, don't you think. That's probably why ToMI didn't continue EMI's story but started fresh.
Also, I once again wonder why, here too, ToMI gets no flak for what you think are horrible, horrible flaws in CMI.
The problem with Escape's ending was that it ACTUALLY didn't make sense. Not your version of nonsensical, but the real definition of the word. In which an ending doesn't make sense because it goes back and contradicts established series facts. LeChuck's Revenge didn't do that. For example, the Marley Revelation would have worked...if the plot of the games hadn't shown that this was actually impossible. That's why that aspect so disliked. Also, Tales takes place a good number of years after Escape, rather than right afterwards. You can assume that the problems "fixed themselves" in the interim. Not so with Curse, and you really couldn't "just do that" with Curse because it had a BIG REVELATION at the end that REQUIRED further exposition, where Escape cleaned up nicely at the end(and so it's acceptable to move on from it).
Hmmm... are you sure you're not confusing "storytelling" and "drawing style". Just because it's drawn the way it is doesn't automatically make the characters act as cartoons with a similar style.
While the art style is indeed a problem, no that is not what I was talking about in the slightest. I could forgive the art if it wasn't for the change in the way the story was told. LeChuck was a bungling villain, rather than actually scary. Guybrush changed in a more subtle(and fairly forgivable) way. The world itself became "goofier". The first two games were often funny and even bizarre, but the overall strokes of the story was "serious", if a bit simple for the most part. LeChuck was evil, and willing to do terrible things, and rarely felt like a stupid villain(there is the odd exception, like the wedgie joke which I'm not particular fond of in LCR).
And LCR's aren't? The cook, stan, wally, largo, the woodcutter, elaine, the cook of the mansion, I could probably go on. The fact a large portion of actors in CMI come from LCR and/or SMI should already tell much.
You mean the way many characters from the Prequel Trilogy are taken from the Original Trilogy? We have Obi-Wan, Yoda, Darth Vader, the Emperor. Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts N' Bolts is pretty widely disliked. Why? Obviously there is no difference, because a good deal of the original cast is back around again. The new Matrix films. Batman and Robin.
Cast says squat, especially when the cast drastically change appearance, are given voices for the first time, and their mannerisms are altered beyond recognition by a new script.
More than that, none of them were goofy as a rule. The thing that puts Largo on the list, for example, was a gag, and one that only worked because he otherwise is so threatening and tough. He did not go "WELL I AM GOING TO STOP YOU NO--DARNIT MISSED WELL I GUESS I'LL LEAVE NOW." You had to actively repel him with wits. He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics(by needing to stop him through a three-stage puzzle) and the story(by having him beat up Guybrush at the start, for one).
Bright colorscemes and are completely unrelated to lack of drama. Think LOST for example, set on a tropical island for crying out loud.
I once again, like a broken record, ask why ToMI is forgiven for this, yet CMI crucified. ToMI isn't dark at all. Yet it contrains drama and a sense of realism. Oh, just like CMI. Even if it's all showered in a comedy sauce.
Or did you hate ToMI after all...?
You can't tell a serious story in Bikini Bottom, nor in the vistas of a Dinsey toon where the scenery itself dances and smiles at the viewer. Let's look at the closing scenes of Secret, Lechuck's Revenge, Curse, and Tales.
Secret of Monkey Island's ending takes place back at Melee, at night. You've just crawled out of Hell and now you're going back to the start of the story to finish the job. Note that Secret has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes.
LeChuck's Revenge has an ending that occurs within dark maintenance tunnels. We have skeletons, and a zombie chasing after us, trying to kill the hero with voodoo. Note that LeChuck's Revenge has brighter scenes, but when it's time to get serious, the color palette and scenery change.
Tales takes place on LeChuck's ship, with a giant stone tower rising from the deck. The scene is dark. LeChuck's attacks are downright brutal, sending Guybrush flying. He's TOYING with you, savoring every hit. You know he can kill Guybrush at any moment. He's scary and intimidating for the first time since LeChuck's Revenge, and I really enjoy it.
Curse's ending..takes place in a theme park. With Guybrush as a kid. "BUT IT'S OKAY IN LECHUCK'S REVENGE, HYPOCRITE" is the obvious response, so I have to clarify that yes, there is a rather large difference between them. On one hand, the theme park after LeChuck's Revenge is AFTER the dramatic scene. It wasn't an ending, but the climax, which requires vastly different storytelling. Rather than a surprise and a mystery, it was one of your final puzzles. And rather than being something original, it was something ripped out of the ending to MI2 to try and tangentially link it to one of the first two games, like tossing the exact same swordfighting puzzle into it. So basically, it was bright, it was not tense, it it was not a mystery, and did not work as a climax.
You cannot possibly tell me that setting and lighting have absolutely no affect on the ability to pull off a dramatic story.
Oh, nevermind. It looks like you already answered my question and dislike ToMI too. Sucks to be you, since it looks unlikely the next MI won't be season 2 and pretty much like ToMI as a result...
Ah, crap. That was actually me putting Tales instead of Curse. My error. I'm actually pretty cool with Tales, on the whole. Good stuff. Needs better puzzles(something Curse actually did fairly well), but the story and voice acting work really well and the cinematography/setting design all works really well. Basically, a good step up from Curse and Escape.
Why do people say that LCR was better cuz it was darker? I don't get that.
The same reason Citizen Kane is on the top of the American Film Institute list, along with The Godfather, and Casablanca...while The Graduate, Forrest Gump, and City Lights are lower. It is the dramatic story that involves you, it is the dark story that makes you think. Now, I would never call LeChuck's Revenge "dark", but it is relative to "Gumdrops and Rainbow Land" Curse. And it has a twist at the end that presents a mystery. "What was that?" is the first response, and in trying to figure it out, you think about the two games more intently. You get more out of it. Okay, the "you" is misplaced here, but I hope you understand the "you" to be a general more general "people" label.
...why is it that the posts on this thread are getting looooonger and loooonger and....
At least it works better than "oh, I had Ozzie kill off Marley, so now I owe him one."
Haha, I suppose so. Granted.
Well, you can blame Gary Coleman for the voice. And I think the reason that people accept the pirates in Curse but not in Escape is that even if they're more domesticated, they're still more authentic than most of what you see in Escape. Maybe some of it is the art style, but a lot of it is that everything in Escape has a more commercial feel to it. Particularly the law offices, the bank, and the three establishments on Jambalaya Island. Lawyers, banks, franchise coffee shops, theme restaurants, and micro groggeries not only fail to capture any sort of piratey feel whatsoever, they feel out of place in the games' time period, not to mention Stan trying to sell freaking timeshares. This is a series known for silly anachronisms in unexpected places, but those locations are so prominent and so out of place that the suspension of disbelief totally disintegrates. Maybe the inhabitants of Plunder don't really act very piratey, but at least you get the feeling that most of them have either been or tried to be pirates in the past, and none of them are very good at their other endeavors. And none of them are running a damn perfume stall.
I suppose I can see that. I disagree, certainly, but it's understandable. I mean, the(admittedly agreed-upon) theatre troupe, a kid selling lemonade, a resort complete with annoying Cabana Boy, and a chicken restaurant. Seems to me the seeds of overindulgence in the anachronisms thing were pretty solidly planted in Curse, and Escape is maybe a couple steps further along.
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.
I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.
KOTOR II is a really poor example. They had development pulled out from under them. They PLANNED another ending(a really cool, dark, epically depressing ending), and it was taken from them when LucasArts decided they needed SOMETHING out for Christmas. Also, Fahrenheit had really wacked-up storytelling throughout. While out there, I don't see much wrong with
"Oh, everything you did. Didn't made a darn difference. It was all a story in someone's head. Forget epicness! Who cares about that now, right?"
"Everything you did?" That's ridiculous.
Here, since the value of your "work" means so much for you, I'm going to crush your heart:
You sat on your ass for however long it took to complete a video game. Nothing you "did" mattered to anyone real. You were occupying yourself with mass-produced entertainment. Your reward for solving a puzzle was the advancing of another part of the story, and moving on to the next puzzle. You don't make any difference to the disk, to the world. Everything waits on the disk, the advancement of time and changes in the world are only thanks to a save file on your computer and a series of programming checks. "Did he do X? Then do Y". And so on, through a series of similar things. But I assure you, the world exists in all forms on the disk. Puzzles complete, puzzles incomplete. It just chooses what one to show you based on progression.
Guess what?
You are playing through a story in someone's head. Well, multiple people, who then put the story into code on commission. Sorry you can't get what you want. I suggest you learn the difference between fiction and reality quickly, because the distinction is going to be invaluable in the future.
The way I see it, unlocking a surprising ending at the end of a game is a far greater reward than being given the same god-damn feel-good ending that Hollywood has been spoon-feeding a mass market that can't handle more than focus-group approved, generic slop.
You know, there's a couple things bugging me about LeChuck in Tales after reading these arguments. If Guybrush turned LeChuck human by stabbing him, why wasn't LeChuck dead from being human and having a sword stuck in him? And if the sponge is a powerful voodoo object that sucks the voodoo out of anything it comes into contact with, how did LeChuck absorb the voodoo without it being pulled back out of him?
You know, there's a couple things bugging me about LeChuck in Tales after reading these arguments. If Guybrush turned LeChuck human by stabbing him, why wasn't LeChuck dead from being human and having a sword stuck in him? And if the sponge is a powerful voodoo object that sucks the voodoo out of anything it comes into contact with, how did LeChuck absorb the voodoo without it being pulled back out of him?
Monkey Island Voodoo has never been particularly well-explained. The first one is a bit harder to explain, other than "He was still changing form when the sword was pulled out" or some cop-out answer like that.
But the sponge seems a bit easier. For one thing, the sponge was pretty much filled to the brim. It didn't continue to grow, filling the entirety of the crossroads. It had a limit, and it hit that. When you squeeze one end of the sponge and take out a little pressure, it's going to equalize from the side that's constantly pumping out voodoo power rather than the side that just had some pulled out. Also, LeChuck's been planning this particular instance for awhile, and he apparently has been hoarding Voodoo magic for ages. He probably knows a thing or to about obtaining and retaining Voodoo.
I'm still seeing a few holes in that explanation. First, the physical size of the sponge isn't related to the amount of voodoo it's holding. It didn't grow when it absorbed Guybrush's pox, and it grew before absorbing the rest of the pox, not the other way around. Certain voodoo spells affect both its physical size and voodoo capacity, but other than that, the sponge's size is fixed. And second, isn't it mentioned more than once that the mature sponge has an "infinite capacity" for voodoo? You could argue that they don't know for certain that it has no limit, as nobody expected it to be exposed to a voodoo source as large as the Crossroads, but now we're just speculating.
I'm still seeing a few holes in that explanation. First, the physical size of the sponge isn't related to the amount of voodoo it's holding. It didn't grow when it absorbed Guybrush's pox, and it grew before absorbing the rest of the pox, not the other way around. Certain voodoo spells affect both its physical size and voodoo capacity, but other than that, the sponge's size is fixed. And second, isn't it mentioned more than once that the sponge has an "infinite capacity" for voodoo? You could argue that they don't know for certain that it has no limit, as nobody expected it to be exposed to a voodoo source as large as the Crossroads, but now we're just speculating.
Ah, dammit. I suppose your thinking at what is 2 in the morning for me is a good deal better than mine is. But you're right, on all counts. The size relates more to the "Capacity" than anything.
Still, it obviously stops sucking up voodoo at some point. After all, all the Voodoo of the Crossroads isn't constantly flowing out while the sponge is in the rift. Why?
I think the most easiest explanation is that the sponge IN THEORY can soak up infinite voodoo, but its size correlates to its "appetite", and it can only "eat" so much at once/at a certain size.
Of course, we're all kind of pulling at strings to try and figure out something that may not have been adequately explained or thought out.
Eh, it's midnight here and I barely got any sleep last night, so my brain's pretty sluggish right now too. Add to that the fact that since yesterday, I've been constantly thinking about different designs to build a marshmallow gun out of PVC for a competition, and it's a wonder that I can discuss Monkey Island coherently right now.
Of course, we're all kind of pulling at strings to try and figure out something that may not have been adequately explained or thought out.
You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.
Eh, it's midnight here and I barely got any sleep last night, so my brain's pretty sluggish right now too. Add to that the fact that since yesterday, I've been constantly thinking about different designs to build a marshmallow gun out of PVC for a competition, and it's a wonder that I can discuss Monkey Island coherently right now.
A worthwhile endeavor if I've ever heard one.
You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.
Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.
My friends and I originally wanted to try using Nerf guns (and as it turns out, Nerf's standard six-shooter, the Maverick, shoots marshmallows surprisingly well, though you have to pick ones fat enough to fit tightly in the chambers), but the person in charge of the rules of the marshmallow gun fight keeps changing the rules randomly, so it's looking like that won't be allowed.
But this is all neither here nor there. How about them monkeys?
Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.
Eh, the whole thing was just for fun, just to see if I could find evidence to support a claim that the entire Monkey Island series was a series of interconnected events in the Voodoo Lady's plot to do...erm...something... Plus I was sleep deprived and bored at the time.
Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)
Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island (3 I guess?) was very dissapointing.
I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue the assertion that BEING MURDERED makes you DIE.
Yup, I know that. It's just kind of me wondering how killing GUYBRUSH made LECHUCK undead, as happens. Maybe I wasn't clear I was talking about LC all the time, making you miss that? Explain that...
On the other hand, being blown up by a voodoo-powered weapon that is intended to kill and destroy, rather than act as either passive storage or an active aid, it just seems silly.
It makes sense when you do not assume too much like you do. What says it's intended to kill and destroy? LeChuck wanted to marry Elaine, not outright kill her. And this voodoo ball would help in that. So it can be easily assumed it's not the killing device you make it out to be, more a device meant to... make Elaine his demon bride.
As such, wouldn't it make sense to transform him as it did?
Certainly, subterfuge and evil plots are a good deal different than "throw him in a box downstairs".
"Heya, Guybrush, you may be gathering ingredients for that spell of yours, go ahead... I wont stop you. Just like CMI I pay more attention to plan A. Of course this IS different, but I rather let Rather Dashing explain why because I don't grasp it myself either."
And when he DOES reveal himself, and he's now the active and known antagonist, he's smashing Guybrush around the ship, just like the classic confrontations of the first two games.
And there is no fighting around in CMI? I am sure I remember something about LC appearing, casting flames and time limits and stuff. Dunno about EMI, never finished that one...
So, Curse is crucified for that because they're completely different situations.
Aside from their similarity that's pretty close to complete equalness? Sure...
Right. No real damage done, and LeChuck continues sobbing and being, in general, harmless. I suppose you could consider "he broke my cannon" to being equivalent to real damage and loss of human life, but I just don't see the equity.
Oooooh... and how many did he kill in LCR? Lemme count on my 0 hands, becuase I am pretty sure the amount is a whooping 0. If you count evilness by human losses, your LCR comes out pretty bad compared to CMI, where plenty of people turned into skeletons by LeChuck's hand.
I never found him scary in LCR either to be honest, and I played it as a kid, but maybe I am just the exception.
But I can probably forgive the guy, considering his huge eyeglasses and inability to hear.
Yet you cannot forgive the CMI guys, for... well... arbitary reasons I suppose?
I'm also pretty sure he's not actually a pirate, considering he doesn't accept bribes.
Sorry, this rule doesn't count, since Kenny is crucified too even being "not an actual pirate". And the Cabana boy. And who knows who else.
Banjo-dueling.
Which IMO was brilliant.
And they sing.
Yeah. But that's more because they have VO now, because otherwise it probably wouldn't be possible (see previous MI's) unlike in a way as done in LCR. Fear the MI2:SE... It will have singing! From piratey parents!
The island has a freaking kid selling lemonade on it.
He sold lemonade? I would have never known if I hadn't switched glasses. Oh well...
Okay, I can see you thinking that Mad Marty is meant to be a pirate, but the LIBRARY LADY?
Well, you were opposing "non-piratey" thinks, no? Well, here is one. But if you mean pirates who pose as something else, then okay, this one doesn't hold...
Also, Tales takes place a good number of years after Escape, rather than right afterwards. You can assume that the problems "fixed themselves" in the interim. Not so with Curse, and you really couldn't "just do that" with Curse because it had a BIG REVELATION at the end that REQUIRED further exposition, where Escape cleaned up nicely at the end.
So you crucify CMI for ignoring what happened before, now say they had to and did, and ToMI is fine for that but CMI is not by definition of...
Wait... I got confused here for a moment...
LeChuck was a bungling villain, rather than actually scary.
As he was in the previous MI's if I recall. The few times he appeared in the first 2 MI's he was your generic foolish villain. CMI just gave him more screentime. Maybe that's your issue, their should have been less LeChuck?
the overall strokes of the story was "serious", if a bit simple for the most part.
Just as CMI. Save the damsel, defeat the villain. Hey; that sounds like SMI. The goofiness is build around it, as was the way with SMI and LCR.
and rarely felt like a stupid villain
Instead of killing you, I lock you in this UNESCAPABLE death-trap of which their is no escape and leave you all alone to escape and continue to do something else.
Could have been from Austin Powers. Or, well, LCR and CMI.
I think you give LeChuck too much credit. He always was the silly villain.
He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics(by needing to stop him through a three-stage puzzle) and the story(by having him beat up Guybrush at the start, for one).
He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics (by needing to stop him through a several-stage puzzle in a rollercoaster ride) and the story (by having him shoot at Guybrush with a cannon at the start, for one).
Even *trying* to directly kill Guybrush is more threatning and villanous than what LeChuck did in both the previous games...
Curse's ending..takes place in a theme park.
Yet, the colour pallete is darker, and has become so throughout the game. Sunshine at Plunder, night at Blood, still night at the Park. If you were a fan of darker colour pallete's when things get more serious, why do you suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, exclude Curse?
As such...
"Note that Curse has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes."
And rather than being something original, it was something ripped out of the ending to MI2 to try and tangentially link it to one of the first two games, like tossing the exact same swordfighting puzzle into it.
So, to get this straight, CMI is damned because it ignores the previous 2 games, but OH MY... it tries to include things of the previous 2 games. That sucks SO much. It should not have included swordfighting or continuation from the MI2 ending, you know, even though I complain they didn't.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess?
Please, make up your mind.
So basically, it was bright
I recall no overt brightness during the final puzzle, but that may be just me.
I'm actually pretty cool with Tales, on the whole.
Okay. In that case, I revert back to my original question. Why is CMI crucified and ToMI "good stuff" if ToMI definitely proceeds along the line CMI set out. From "brightness" to the piratey theme. And the voices.
KOTOR II is a really poor example.
No, it's not. It's the perfect example of how a weak ending on a very good game (like LCR) allows for speculation for years to come.
You are playing through a story in someone's head. Well, multiple people, who then put the story into code on commission. Sorry you can't get what you want. I suggest you learn the difference between fiction and reality quickly, because the distinction is going to be invaluable in the future.
Odd argument from someone who claims storyline and deepness are everything, but I'll go along for now.
You (say you) like a good story, deep, dark, and stuff. Then would you prefer it if that ended with a sloppy weak ending nullifying everything. Take KOTOR (since you know it) would the ending be better if on the Star Forge Malak said "now witness the power of the Star Forge", a cutscene ran where you died, and the ending was a pre-determined 'doomed galaxy, whatever you did was pointless'... credits?
That would be bad storytelling. I don't need a happy ending, but atleast a resolution to the story, so everything that happens in the story isn't completely nullified. I wouldn't mind reading a book if the story ended with the hero getting killed or something similar, a dark ending where stuff went completely bad (See: Each ending of the series "24"). 24 Season 1 had a good ending, even if the hero found his wife dead in it. If it would have ended with a beeper going off, he wakes up, and all 24 hours where just a dream, then yes... I call a piss-poor ending.
The way I see it, unlocking a surprising ending at the end of a game is a far greater reward than being given the same god-damn feel-good ending that Hollywood has been spoon-feeding a mass market that can't handle more than focus-group approved, generic slop.
Don't say I disagree. For starters, I wasn't particular happy with ToMI's ending either, short, happy, etc.
A surprising ending, like he actually being stuck at the crossroads as some suggested, I would have preffered more.
Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)
Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island (3 I guess?) was very dissapointing.
No matter where's anyone's preference , and while i'm far from being as harsh on Curse as Rather Dashing, I can't understand why so many people don't seem to get the fact that many of what caused Escape to basically suck indeed started in Curse. Up until Tales, Curse WAS more or less "the begining of the end".
I'm not talking so much about the actual story, though it did have some flaws, but more about, well, the general atmosphere and tone. I don't care about the cartoony graphics, but i wholly agree with dashing's points on the cartoony story.
LeChuck just can't possibly be taken seriously (he dies because of dropping his own voodoo cannonball... Heck, he even dies TWICE in the game!) and with him all sense of a real threat is gone. I do think he remains a cool character, but he's definitely not the the "real" LeChuck anymore.
And concerning the "more piratey feel" thing, this never meant EVERYONE has to be a real hardcore pirate !
Of course Revenge had that laundry guy and wally, secret had the shopkeeper and the circus brothers, stan's NEVER been a pirate by any means, and so on... Just because it's a pirate setting doesn't mean everyone's got to be a pirate, quite the contrary actually. You need those background characters, they add depht, realism or whatever to the setting.
The difference is that, in secret for instance, you had those "normal" blokes, AND some more serious pirates (the SCUMM Bar patrons, the guys wandreing the street...). Sure they've never been that threatening or serious, since it's always been about fun, but still, they had that "actual pirate" vibe.
Now starting in Curse, suddenly everyone is a pirate, and at the same time no one is a pirate. Retired pirate turned barber, pirate cook, pirate shakespearian actor... Everyone basically claims to be a pirate while definitely not BEING one. This got worse in Escape, and even to some extent in tales (pirate glassblower ??).
Basically, the goofyness which, sure, had always been part of the monkey island, became much more central in curse, and i can't see how anyone can deny it. It went from "let's have some fun with a pirate story" to "let's tell a story about funny pirates", and that's just not quite the same thing.
Now, as i said, i ain't nearly as harsh on Curse than Rather Dashing. Even if it all bugs me a little and if i do feel that some of that special thingie that made the first two games is gone, i still see these flaws as rather minor and they don't prevent me from enjoying the game. I think these "bad points" overall didn't go too far, and there's still SOME balance between serious and goofy, at least enough to retain a lot of the monkey island feel. But as i understand it, Dashing's point is not that Curse sucked, but that what made Escape suck started there. It's okay to prefer the Curse's atmopshere to the previous ones', but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.
Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses. That witch like old lady's betrayal was predictable right from the start but the actual betrayal didn't make any sense. I pretty much stopped paying attention to the story from then on and just considered the game a fun star wars hack and slash, so in the end the ending didn't bother me, since it all had stopped making sense way before that.
This is definitely not the same thing as Revenge's ending, which in itself might make no sense at all, but what came before did. Sure it is frustrating, and i understand why people could hate it, but it's definitely not due to actual storytelling flaw.
If anyone's studied music theory, they probably know than just like stories a lot of it revolves around tension and resolution. The easiest way to play around that in music is to play around with those chords called the I chord and the V chord : the later brings tension, and the former resolves it. An awful lot of music pieces, be it symphonies or stupid jingle tunes, will end with a V to I chord movement.
Well in one of the latest song we wrote with my band, we decided to end it on the V chord, and NOT resolve it to the I. We just stop there, and the song clearly doesn't sound finished. We set up tension and we chose not to resolve it. I personally think it's great (certainly not original, even though i can't think of any exemple right now it's definitely been done before, and it sure wouldn't work in any context), but i'm sure a lot of people are gonna hate that ending.
Well revenge's ending is exactly that. It doesn't only stops on the V chord, it switches to some totally unrelated key and leaves everything hanging there. This create an awful lot of tension and expectation, and it's definitely not a pleasing ending. It doesn't conclude anything, actually it's quite the opposite of a conslusion. And yes, it's frustrating, and just like my band's song, it's obvious some people are going to hate it. But no matter what you think of it, it's not lazyness or poor story telling. It's been said that the ending was Ron Gilbert's way of making sure the series couldn't continue without him. I don't care if that's true or not, but if it is, well he still did so in a very clever and thought out way. It MIGHT ruin the future of the series, but not the game itself.
Okay, that post is way too long already, so i guess i'll shut up now. I do enjoy reading this thread a great deal, even if i don't have so much to add. Reminds me, in a more focused way, of Sladdersomethin (can't remember his exact screen name) thread about the tone of monkey island. If anyone likes this thread and haven't already read that other one, i can only encourage them to check it out.
Tales takes place on LeChuck's ship, with a giant stone tower rising from the deck. The scene is dark. LeChuck's attacks are downright brutal, sending Guybrush flying. He's TOYING with you, savoring every hit. You know he can kill Guybrush at any moment. He's scary and intimidating for the first time since LeChuck's Revenge, and I really enjoy it.
What really reminded me of LCR in Tales was the way LeChuck will randomly show up while you're looking for the Diet of the Senses ingredients in the physical world, mock you, and throw you back into the Crossroads. I don't know if he shows up in all the locations, but he certainly does in the Flotsam jungle and Club 41, and it really does give you the feeling that there's no escape from him.
but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.
Well, I certainly wont claim that is the case, but the 100% serious dark atmosphere LCR, 0% serious uber-goofy CMI point Rather Dashing seemed to make is a little too black & white.
Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses.
Probably. If you want dark, deep and complex, you can't get better than KOTOR2 (well, there is Planescape: Torment). Even in it's unfinished state.
If you really need some explenation try the "Let's Play Kotor2" walkthrough (google it!). Not only does it excellently explain the story for those who didn't grasp it, it mentions what was cut, and is very funny to boot...
Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)
Actually, the way I read it was:
- Guybrush is actually a kid (1)
- Guybrush is trapped by LeChuck's magic (2) (By the way, the way I see it that's Curse's explanation)
- Big Whoop is a portal to another world (3)
About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
It's a possibility.
About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
It's a possibility.
After reading this, I just had a thought that rather than LeChuck being the "owner" of the sponge, I think it likely that The Voodoo Lady, being in a jail cell adjacent to LeChuck's. had enough time to talk to him and... *ahem* "let slip" information to him about how to extract Voodoo from the sponge. She had time alone to talk to him, and even if he suspected that what she might say would be for her own plans, how could he pass up the chance to use it?
Comments
Sir, you are indeed a worthy intellectual opponent. This sort of battle of wits is exactly what I love about this place.
I did say that it held better in the first two chapters and fell apart at the end.
I was referring to the cannon ball, not even thinking about the ring. Yes, LeChuck did bumble around quite a bit. If he was going to fire the voodoo cannon ball at Elaine, he should've done that right from the get go. The best reason I can figure that he didn't (other than "he's an incompetent cartoon character") is that it required some final preparation before it could be used.
As for the ring, consider this. LeChuck had the ring in his treasure hold, all of which he planned to give to Elaine. It's entirely likely that the entire opening was a ruse. Even if the cannon ball didn't work out (except in the unlikely event that someone below decks fired an unrestrained cannon, causing him to drop it), LeChuck may have planned on giving her the treasure and waiting for her to eventually put on the ring (and assuming her pride prevented her from taking the treasure, one can assume that 1. she would prevent the islanders from getting near it and 2. she could only allow it to sit there for so long before accepting that LeChuck had no intention of returning for it), at which point he would come back and collect the statue.
Okay, even I admit I'm just pulling this out of nowhere. I'm just trying to illustrate that he may have had a deeper plan. Even so, I'll give you that he was acting pretty out of character with the "lost puppy" thing, as you put it.
As for the resurrection, I wouldn't call it happenstance. It doesn't seem that there was any catalyst for it, he just didn't choose to regenerate until he had a ship. Unless the happenstance you're referring to is that he didn't spend eternity drifting on the ocean inside his boots, but was actually picked up by someone.
Disarmed, yes, distracted, I'm not so sure. Seems to me that he was deciding to finish off Guybrush once Elaine couldn't interfere anymore. As for the "I'm just not into you" bit, Elaine's excuses were the out of character bit, and LeChuck was relentless until the cannon ball incident, which was in character for him, even if the actual dialogue wasn't.
Maybe his dialogue was a bit pathetic in the beginning, but also look at his actions. He had a pretty decent siege going, and if Guybrush hadn't reentered the picture, who's to say how that would've turned out?
In the middle, he doesn't exactly do much less than he did in MI2, where he just shuffles around his fortress, ordering one clearly incompetent minion to stop Guybrush from doing whatever the hell he wants (and never takes matters into his own hands after Largo's repeated failures), and ordering a filler character to craft a voodoo doll he's apparently too lazy to make himself. In Curse, he spends the middle of the game regaining his power, returning to his stronghold, and ordering another incompetent minion to locate Guybrush (though to Dinghy Dog's credit, he did a better job of completing his mission than Largo did).
And yes, the explosion of exposition at the end was not the most elegant way to handle tying the game to MI2, but a lot of his story was more fitting with his character than most of the things he did in Curse. You have to admit, it does make a lot more sense that LeChuck was directly responsible for the deaths of Marley's crew than just pure misfortune, and murdering them all is definitely in character for him.
Though the part of his story where he bulids the theme park is indeed absolutely ridiculous.
After the story, we do see LeChuck pull two repeat performances: turning Guybrush into a child and leaving him to wander a carnival, and allowing Elaine to give him the slip. Not necessarily original, but still fitting with the previous games. And for the third time, Guybrush defeats him by turning elements in the environment against him.
I'm not sure how you got that feeling off Murray. My impression of him was a megalomaniac who's either too stupid or too insane to realize that as a talking skull, he really doesn't have much power to do anything. I suppose you could call that one definition of pathetic, but not in the way you're thinking.
Right, and a jungle with a bush shaped like a dinosaur isn't cartoony at all. I did give you that the theater was out of place, and I feel Blondebeard's was pulled off as well as a chicken restaurant could've been pulled off, between the maggoty food and the backstabbing proprietor. As for the lemonade stand, I thought it was a nice touch that even the only child on the island was already a swindler.
There's not much I can argue against here. The best I can say is that under the assumption that having the first island in the game be a retirement community for pirates was a mistake, turning the crew into seasoned pirates who became barbers in their retirement was about as good a way as they could've come up with to make them fit in with the rest of the island. Even assuming that the characterization of Plunder was a mistake, a bigger mistake would've been to have the crew be the only three "hardcore" pirates on an island of softer former pirates, pirate rejects, and pirates-to-be.
To be fair, Elaine's scene at the end of MI2 was pretty much a set-up for "well, magic!" You've got me wondering what sort of explanation would've satisfied you.
I accept that, even if I can't agree with it. I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to convert you or anything, I'm just enjoying the "battle of wits".
Call me a Monkey Island fanboy if you want. I'm immune to it here.
I suppose I mostly agree, and it's more a matter of "how much it bugs you" here. LeChuck wasn't in character, and the voice didn't sound in the least menacing to me. I didn't get it. Everything was funny and all, but it was less like meeting an old friend and more like meeting a nice person who also happened to be wearing a suit fashioned from your old friend's flesh. Very unsettling.
This is really relatively minor, and I actually have little problem with the finding of the boots scene. It's just that, well, why? In Secret, he was a ghost because he died. In LeChuck's Revenge, he was a zombie because he was "brought back from the dead" by voodoo. Voodoo, zombies, you know. It was odd to revive a ghost as a zombie, but that was half the fun. But his transformation into a demon felt...I dunno. Shallow. The last two games felt like they were going "Forms!" without feeling the need to explain anything about WHY. Tales actually did a great job with this(well, other than explaining the Walrus form...but I'll blame LucasArts on that one =P).
Eh, I suppose so, on a broad level. The problem is that he goes from attack to disarmed in a moment, gives up, and sends Guybrush to the brink. You don't get all of 2 seconds worth of time to fear for his life, and LeChuck is such a moron(throughout the first scene especially), I never felt threatened. It feels more likely that he'll trip over a banana peel and stab himself, starting the circle of reincarnation all over again. Or he'll say "DRAT! WHY DID I PACK THE RUBBER SWORDS?!"
The conjecture feels a bit empty. Maybe if we saw him actually sink at least a single ship, rather than get held back by one person manning 10 canons at once?
"I Stab You - Oh, hey you are human now", "UNHOLY THIS - I am undead now", "I plunge a sponge in a rift - I am a demon now!" is an extremely good explenation, unlike "I have been blown up by a cannonball made of pure voodoo, reincarnating as some evil demon being"?
I ain't quite seeing it. I suppose he hasn't learned, because in ToMI he stills goes forward with plan A (Voodoo Bomb, Monkeys) instead of taking care of Guybrush.
Once again I ask, why is ToMI allowed, and CMI crucified for this? I am pretty sure before that there's an "Incoming.... aaaargh" and everyone flees while LeChuck blows up a cannon preceeding that. And LCR apparently, so much you don't even mention them. There is a laundry pirate after all, and a spitting contest and who knows what else I cannot remember just now. You said it yourself. It took a turn for the horribly absurd. Personally, I can't see that myself in CMI. The barbers for example still act deadly serious, even if that can bring a smile to the gamers face by their singing, Guybrush comments etc. Or a souvenir shop, a big party, a woodcutter's worship, a library... Actually, I would totally not mind if I hated the ending of the previous book (and hate is no understatement for the ending of LCR). Rather have it somewhat ignore it that actually continuing on to it, ruining the entire series, don't you think. That's probably why ToMI didn't continue EMI's story but started fresh.
Also, I once again wonder why, here too, ToMI gets no flak for what you think are horrible, horrible flaws in CMI. Hmmm... are you sure you're not confusing "storytelling" and "drawing style". Just because it's drawn the way it is doesn't automatically make the characters act as cartoons with a similar style. And LCR's aren't? The cook, stan, wally, largo, the woodcutter, elaine, the cook of the mansion, I could probably go on. The fact a large portion of actors in CMI come from LCR and/or SMI should already tell much. Bright colorscemes and are completely unrelated to lack of drama. Think LOST for example, set on a tropical island for crying out loud.
I once again, like a broken record, ask why ToMI is forgiven for this, yet CMI crucified. ToMI isn't dark at all. Yet it contrains drama and a sense of realism. Oh, just like CMI. Even if it's all showered in a comedy sauce.
Or did you hate ToMI after all...? Oh, nevermind. It looks like you already answered my question and dislike ToMI too. Sucks to be you, since it looks unlikely the next MI won't be season 2 and pretty much like ToMI as a result...
Now, I'm sure the next question will make some folk go 'are you retarded?' but if I actually cared what Internet People thought of me, I wouldn't write slashfic. Why exactly is LCR lauded as "omg greatest adventure game EVAR!!!111one1"? Don't get me wrong, I love LCR, but it's certainly not the best adventure game I've ever played. I like Secret better. I like Curse better. I like Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis better. And having played through all of these games recently, that's still my opinion.
Maybe it's because I first played LCR on an Amiga 600, and had to change the bloody disk every time the screen changed, maybe it's because I didn't like how Guybrush had become King of the Douchebags, maybe it's because I was scared shitless of Zombie LeChuck when the game came out, but I just don't think LCR should be the benchmark against which all the other games in the series should be judged. (if anything, it should be Secret) And the ending. I definitely wasn't going "gee, I wonder what kind of clever explanation Ron Gilbert has for this situation!", I was going "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT MEANT TO BE?!" No closure, no explanation, it was just a mindfuck that was only partially covered by the cut back to Elaine hinting that there was a spell involved during the credits.
I read an article by Someone On The Internet (can't remember who or where) that theorised that the ending to LCR was basically Ron Gilbert trying to make sure that they'd never be able to continue the series without him. That might be an unfair accusation, but it's still plausible. And to be brutally honest, his claims that he had the series all mapped out always smacked of revisionism to me. Suuuuuure you did Ron, you're not just saying that because they have managed to continue it without you. I could be wrong of course, but at the same time I don't really care.
Anyway, back to the point I've completely digressed from: yes, LCR is a great game, but I've never thought it was the GREATEST ADVENTURE GAME EVAR. Maybe its story is more complex (and naturally more complexity = better than *eyeroll*) than Curse's, its villains were definitely scarier, the tone was darker, the puzzles were harder etc etc, but I still know which game I enjoyed better, and it wasn't LCR. And if that makes me an idiot who doesn't appreciate true adventure games then hey, at least I'm a happy idiot.
yes.
I never played the Indiana Jones games, but yes.
agreed.
More likely he was on Meth when he thought of the idea in the first place. That would make more sense, considering the whole ending of the game makes no sense at all.
Why do people say that LCR was better cuz it was darker? I don't get that.
...why is it that the posts on this thread are getting looooonger and loooonger and....
It's like I'm reading an online news article.
Actually, that sounds exactly like the sort of thing LeChuck would do.
Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids.
Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island was very dissapointing.
-.-
It's a STUPID ENDING. It's just one big "what the f*ck?!"... I mean, seriously. Ambiguity be damned. To leave the storyline hanging like that with NO explanation why the carnival was even necessary to the story... for 6 years the story had ended that way.
Hell no, it doesn't make sense. What do you mean "like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong?" The reason why I dislike it is because it makes no sense. There is no connection between the carnival/corridors and the rest of the story of MI2. LeChuck saying he's Guybrush's brother is nothing more than using a Star Wars reference as a lame plot twist (I love Empire Strikes Back, but that reference was eye-rolling.) You also realize that LeChuck basically wins. At least he's defeated at the end of EMI, even with EMI's other faults.
If anyone says that a better explanation than CMI's would have been that Guybrush really is a kid in a theme park, I will kill you with a rubber chicken and a 50 foot tall ball of twine. There's already a thread or 5 about that theory, and a large number of people, including myself, have said that it might have been okay if it was part of Ron's trilogy, but now that Monkey Island has been around for so long that many of us have grown up with it... making it so that even Guybrush knows it's fake would ruin the whole blasted thing.
The best endings to all works of fiction are the endings that force the reader/viewer/player to think. If Guybrush had simply defeated LeChuck at the end of MI2, married Elaine and found a valuable treasure called Big Whoop, how many people would still care about the story? How many people would still remember the ending, almost 20 years after the game came out? MI2 reinforced the Monkey Island franchises mysterious and secretive atmosphere, giving the players a sense that there were more going on in this world than they were told, which has fuelled discussions and debates about the game for many, many years, and I believe has been largely responsible for the loyal MI fanbase that still existed a decade after the last game was relased. The MI world is filled with secrets and mysteries, and CMI ended up almost dispelling that atmosphere.
Hence the title: LeChuck's Revenge. Besides, not all good works of fiction has to end with the hero defeating the villain. Ever read Brave New World? The Trial? Very few of my favourite books ends with the protagonist simply defeating the antagonist and going on to live happily ever after. I'll leave that to big-budget Hollywood movies aiming to please as large audiences as possible.
Wow.
Although Guybrush being a kid in a theme park is an absolutely credible answer to what happens at the end of MI2, that is not the only possible alternative to LeChuck building a theme park on Monkey Island. There have been several well though-out and sound theories by fans over the years, that are much more interesting and exciting than CMI's "carneval cop-out".
Think Indiana Jones IV, LCR, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, Fahrenheit.
Do people remember their "endings" because they were good? No... because they are horrible ways to end something decent (well, excluding Indiana Jones here, the videogames are).
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings. True, a well-done ending would have been forgetten sooner. The only way we still talk about it, more than anything else of MI2 is because it's such a darn let-down that it is hard to forget. There was one before MI2? I cannot seem to recall.
Actually, I cannot recall any of the sort in MI2 either, and the ending doesn't give me "mysterious and secretive" more than, well... WTF? Have to agree a bit here. For example, KOTOR2 wouldn't have been talked about still if the original wasn't horribly mutilated and defiled. Hmmm, does that ring a bell with MI2's ending? Name some. Humour me.
I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.
One thing though... I don't like endings. I dunno why, I just like to think there's something more. Part of me felt a tad disappointed at the end of Rise of the Pirate God, right up until that very last clip. If they do do a TOMI2, I wouldn't want it to finish off the Monkey Island story. I would want it to leave that last little Monkey Island puzzle that will never be solved, as TOMI did.
The ending is really no different than, say, the final revelation in The 6th Sense, which also comes as a shock at first, but makes sense when viewed in context.
The ending of MI2 being a huge let-down was never really a widely held opinion until a few years after CMI, when the post CMI fans discovered MI2 and felt cheated because the game didn't end comfortably and light-hearted. For me, the "darn let-down" was the way CMI handled MI2's ending.
Remember the titular Secret of Monkey Island?
Yeah, you keep repeating that you were completely taken amiss by MI2's ending, and that it is "WTF" (not an adjective, by the way). For starters, I don't see the conflict between an ending being surprising and an ending being mysterious. Also, there is no correlation between an ending being surprising or mysterious and and ending being bad.
Hmm, horribly mutilated? Defiled? No, that does definately not ring a bell with MI2's ending. You might be mistaking your own dissapointment over the unconventional twist at the end of MI2 for an ending which is actually badly written.
Read the thread. I already did.
Also, I wonder why why you think MI would be all "mysterious and deep" if the story itself made it out it was all a themepark attraction. PoTC doesn't refer to the attraction in any way either, does it? I looked in context, and... well... found none to be quite frankly. Except maybe Walt the dog, but that's only because it was stolen from PoTC's ride. Well, I don't know about "widely held" but I already had it when experiencing it, and that was before CMI was released at all... Nope, not like you do apparently. No dark deep plot full of mystery there. I didn't say "suprising". A surprising ending would be good. I said "WTF". A WTF ending would be bad.
I would be perfectly fine with an ending being not what I expect, but quality. But not when the ending suddenly totally opposes the good buildup, like yellowish AI thingies (Fahrenheit), a total absent of teammates and not resolving the plot (KOTOR2) or... saying it was all a theme-park, nullifying whatever happened at the plot (MI2). Sure, it's a little more original than 'it was just a dream', but in no regards better than that... I read the thread. I even checked all your posts just now you said this. And all I can see are 2 examples; one being Guybrush really is a modern kid (which would TOTALLY suck for MI3) and CMI's storyline. No other examples given.
Off the top of my head, in addition to the obvious Walt (Disney) the dog reference:
WTF is still not an adjective, and I think the distinction between a surprising ending and a "WTF ending" is pretty vague, only distinct in your mind because you dislike how MI2 ends. WTF is a pretty common exclamation when you are surprised by something.
"Better" is a subjective term. I think the worst possible solution to an interesting and surprising ending like MI2's, was to blow it all off and turn LeChuck into a buffoonish cartoon villain with a theme park. If you take a look around the old Scummbar.com or some of the old Monkey Island forums (or even around here) you'll find tons of interesting theories as to what happens at the end of the game, several of them preferable to CMI's solution.
Here you go.
edit: Nor will I ever understand why anyone could hate CMI as Rather Dashing does.
That makes very little sense. How is my opinion on MI2 any more "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" than yours or Hassad Hunters?
Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.
:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.
:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.
:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.
: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.
See, although I don't neccesarily agree with that theory, this is the sort of cool speculation and theories that MI2 inspires.
Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.
:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.
:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.
:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.
: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.
Also @ OzzieMonkey: So, you're saying the entire story of MI is made up by a lunatic in a madhouse?
I certainly hope not, that sounds pretty stupid. Maybe you guys would think that an epic ending, but I would pretty much think if the story of MI would be ruined like that.
"Oh, everything you did. Didn't made a darn difference. It was all a story in someone's head. Forget epicness! Who cares about that now, right?"
There's three of them, just count them. Do a quick search on Google or on these forums to find dozens more.
I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue the assertion that BEING MURDERED makes you DIE. It's sort of self-evident. When you are killed, you die. In a world filled with ghosts, you become a ghost when you die. Hell, Curse had LeChuck building a ghost army by killing people, so even if you dismiss the plots of every other game in the series(as you seem to), and thus consider Curse to be the only valid and intelligent entry in the series history, then Curse does explain that you DIE when you are KILLED, and when you die in the Monkey Island universe you become a ghost. That I had to type this makes my head hurt.
The sponge is a Voodoo Sponge. It absorbs Voodoo. It was placed at the nexus of all Voodoo. Absorbing lots of Voodoo makes you powerful. The magic was passive, just sitting there, waiting to be taken in the purest possible form.
On the other hand, being blown up by a voodoo-powered weapon that is intended to kill and destroy, rather than act as either passive storage or an active aid, it just seems silly. It wasn't planned, LeChuck came back because he bungled into it, like some incompetent moron stumbling toward success.
Certainly, subterfuge and evil plots are a good deal different than "throw him in a box downstairs". And when he DOES reveal himself, and he's now the active and known antagonist, he's smashing Guybrush around the ship, just like the classic confrontations of the first two games.
So, Curse is crucified for that because they're completely different situations.
Right. No real damage done, and LeChuck continues sobbing and being, in general, harmless. I suppose you could consider "he broke my cannon" to being equivalent to real damage and loss of human life, but I just don't see the equity.
Wait, so spitting contests is a civilian profession now? Do pirates not spit? I'm sorry, I don't see this thing as something that doesn't fit.
Mad Marty is somewhat similar, I suppose. But I can probably forgive the guy, considering his huge eyeglasses and inability to hear. I'm also pretty sure he's not actually a pirate, considering he doesn't accept bribes. It's kind of like accusing Stan of being a pirate due to the hat. They're just themed shopkeeps, probably dealing with mostly pirate clients.
A freaking theatre troupe. Banjo-dueling. The other two barbers are mostly fine, except they're barbers. And they sing. Possibly the Cabana Boy, though as an employee of the resort he's probably not actually a retired pirate. The owner of a chicken restaurant. The island has a freaking kid selling lemonade on it.
Okay, I can see you thinking that Mad Marty is meant to be a pirate, but the LIBRARY LADY?
I'm pretty sure that the rest of them are just those things, not "pirates that do those things and have those act as their overriding defining character trait".
The problem with Escape's ending was that it ACTUALLY didn't make sense. Not your version of nonsensical, but the real definition of the word. In which an ending doesn't make sense because it goes back and contradicts established series facts. LeChuck's Revenge didn't do that. For example, the Marley Revelation would have worked...if the plot of the games hadn't shown that this was actually impossible. That's why that aspect so disliked. Also, Tales takes place a good number of years after Escape, rather than right afterwards. You can assume that the problems "fixed themselves" in the interim. Not so with Curse, and you really couldn't "just do that" with Curse because it had a BIG REVELATION at the end that REQUIRED further exposition, where Escape cleaned up nicely at the end(and so it's acceptable to move on from it).
While the art style is indeed a problem, no that is not what I was talking about in the slightest. I could forgive the art if it wasn't for the change in the way the story was told. LeChuck was a bungling villain, rather than actually scary. Guybrush changed in a more subtle(and fairly forgivable) way. The world itself became "goofier". The first two games were often funny and even bizarre, but the overall strokes of the story was "serious", if a bit simple for the most part. LeChuck was evil, and willing to do terrible things, and rarely felt like a stupid villain(there is the odd exception, like the wedgie joke which I'm not particular fond of in LCR).
You mean the way many characters from the Prequel Trilogy are taken from the Original Trilogy? We have Obi-Wan, Yoda, Darth Vader, the Emperor. Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts N' Bolts is pretty widely disliked. Why? Obviously there is no difference, because a good deal of the original cast is back around again. The new Matrix films. Batman and Robin.
Cast says squat, especially when the cast drastically change appearance, are given voices for the first time, and their mannerisms are altered beyond recognition by a new script.
More than that, none of them were goofy as a rule. The thing that puts Largo on the list, for example, was a gag, and one that only worked because he otherwise is so threatening and tough. He did not go "WELL I AM GOING TO STOP YOU NO--DARNIT MISSED WELL I GUESS I'LL LEAVE NOW." You had to actively repel him with wits. He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics(by needing to stop him through a three-stage puzzle) and the story(by having him beat up Guybrush at the start, for one). You can't tell a serious story in Bikini Bottom, nor in the vistas of a Dinsey toon where the scenery itself dances and smiles at the viewer. Let's look at the closing scenes of Secret, Lechuck's Revenge, Curse, and Tales.
Secret of Monkey Island's ending takes place back at Melee, at night. You've just crawled out of Hell and now you're going back to the start of the story to finish the job. Note that Secret has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes.
LeChuck's Revenge has an ending that occurs within dark maintenance tunnels. We have skeletons, and a zombie chasing after us, trying to kill the hero with voodoo. Note that LeChuck's Revenge has brighter scenes, but when it's time to get serious, the color palette and scenery change.
Tales takes place on LeChuck's ship, with a giant stone tower rising from the deck. The scene is dark. LeChuck's attacks are downright brutal, sending Guybrush flying. He's TOYING with you, savoring every hit. You know he can kill Guybrush at any moment. He's scary and intimidating for the first time since LeChuck's Revenge, and I really enjoy it.
Curse's ending..takes place in a theme park. With Guybrush as a kid. "BUT IT'S OKAY IN LECHUCK'S REVENGE, HYPOCRITE" is the obvious response, so I have to clarify that yes, there is a rather large difference between them. On one hand, the theme park after LeChuck's Revenge is AFTER the dramatic scene. It wasn't an ending, but the climax, which requires vastly different storytelling. Rather than a surprise and a mystery, it was one of your final puzzles. And rather than being something original, it was something ripped out of the ending to MI2 to try and tangentially link it to one of the first two games, like tossing the exact same swordfighting puzzle into it. So basically, it was bright, it was not tense, it it was not a mystery, and did not work as a climax.
You cannot possibly tell me that setting and lighting have absolutely no affect on the ability to pull off a dramatic story.
Ah, crap. That was actually me putting Tales instead of Curse. My error. I'm actually pretty cool with Tales, on the whole. Good stuff. Needs better puzzles(something Curse actually did fairly well), but the story and voice acting work really well and the cinematography/setting design all works really well. Basically, a good step up from Curse and Escape.
The same reason Citizen Kane is on the top of the American Film Institute list, along with The Godfather, and Casablanca...while The Graduate, Forrest Gump, and City Lights are lower. It is the dramatic story that involves you, it is the dark story that makes you think. Now, I would never call LeChuck's Revenge "dark", but it is relative to "Gumdrops and Rainbow Land" Curse. And it has a twist at the end that presents a mystery. "What was that?" is the first response, and in trying to figure it out, you think about the two games more intently. You get more out of it. Okay, the "you" is misplaced here, but I hope you understand the "you" to be a general more general "people" label.
I know, isn't it awesome?
Haha, I suppose so. Granted.
I suppose I can see that. I disagree, certainly, but it's understandable. I mean, the(admittedly agreed-upon) theatre troupe, a kid selling lemonade, a resort complete with annoying Cabana Boy, and a chicken restaurant. Seems to me the seeds of overindulgence in the anachronisms thing were pretty solidly planted in Curse, and Escape is maybe a couple steps further along.
KOTOR II is a really poor example. They had development pulled out from under them. They PLANNED another ending(a really cool, dark, epically depressing ending), and it was taken from them when LucasArts decided they needed SOMETHING out for Christmas. Also, Fahrenheit had really wacked-up storytelling throughout. While out there, I don't see much wrong with
"Everything you did?" That's ridiculous.
Here, since the value of your "work" means so much for you, I'm going to crush your heart:
You sat on your ass for however long it took to complete a video game. Nothing you "did" mattered to anyone real. You were occupying yourself with mass-produced entertainment. Your reward for solving a puzzle was the advancing of another part of the story, and moving on to the next puzzle. You don't make any difference to the disk, to the world. Everything waits on the disk, the advancement of time and changes in the world are only thanks to a save file on your computer and a series of programming checks. "Did he do X? Then do Y". And so on, through a series of similar things. But I assure you, the world exists in all forms on the disk. Puzzles complete, puzzles incomplete. It just chooses what one to show you based on progression.
Guess what?
You are playing through a story in someone's head. Well, multiple people, who then put the story into code on commission. Sorry you can't get what you want. I suggest you learn the difference between fiction and reality quickly, because the distinction is going to be invaluable in the future.
The way I see it, unlocking a surprising ending at the end of a game is a far greater reward than being given the same god-damn feel-good ending that Hollywood has been spoon-feeding a mass market that can't handle more than focus-group approved, generic slop.
But the sponge seems a bit easier. For one thing, the sponge was pretty much filled to the brim. It didn't continue to grow, filling the entirety of the crossroads. It had a limit, and it hit that. When you squeeze one end of the sponge and take out a little pressure, it's going to equalize from the side that's constantly pumping out voodoo power rather than the side that just had some pulled out. Also, LeChuck's been planning this particular instance for awhile, and he apparently has been hoarding Voodoo magic for ages. He probably knows a thing or to about obtaining and retaining Voodoo.
Still, it obviously stops sucking up voodoo at some point. After all, all the Voodoo of the Crossroads isn't constantly flowing out while the sponge is in the rift. Why?
I think the most easiest explanation is that the sponge IN THEORY can soak up infinite voodoo, but its size correlates to its "appetite", and it can only "eat" so much at once/at a certain size.
Of course, we're all kind of pulling at strings to try and figure out something that may not have been adequately explained or thought out.
You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.
Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.
But this is all neither here nor there. How about them monkeys?
Eh, the whole thing was just for fun, just to see if I could find evidence to support a claim that the entire Monkey Island series was a series of interconnected events in the Voodoo Lady's plot to do...erm...something... Plus I was sleep deprived and bored at the time.
As such, wouldn't it make sense to transform him as it did? "Heya, Guybrush, you may be gathering ingredients for that spell of yours, go ahead... I wont stop you. Just like CMI I pay more attention to plan A. Of course this IS different, but I rather let Rather Dashing explain why because I don't grasp it myself either." And there is no fighting around in CMI? I am sure I remember something about LC appearing, casting flames and time limits and stuff. Dunno about EMI, never finished that one... Aside from their similarity that's pretty close to complete equalness? Sure... Oooooh... and how many did he kill in LCR? Lemme count on my 0 hands, becuase I am pretty sure the amount is a whooping 0. If you count evilness by human losses, your LCR comes out pretty bad compared to CMI, where plenty of people turned into skeletons by LeChuck's hand.
I never found him scary in LCR either to be honest, and I played it as a kid, but maybe I am just the exception. Yet you cannot forgive the CMI guys, for... well... arbitary reasons I suppose? Sorry, this rule doesn't count, since Kenny is crucified too even being "not an actual pirate". And the Cabana boy. And who knows who else. Which IMO was brilliant. Yeah. But that's more because they have VO now, because otherwise it probably wouldn't be possible (see previous MI's) unlike in a way as done in LCR. Fear the MI2:SE... It will have singing! From piratey parents! He sold lemonade? I would have never known if I hadn't switched glasses. Oh well... Well, you were opposing "non-piratey" thinks, no? Well, here is one. But if you mean pirates who pose as something else, then okay, this one doesn't hold... So you crucify CMI for ignoring what happened before, now say they had to and did, and ToMI is fine for that but CMI is not by definition of...
Wait... I got confused here for a moment... As he was in the previous MI's if I recall. The few times he appeared in the first 2 MI's he was your generic foolish villain. CMI just gave him more screentime. Maybe that's your issue, their should have been less LeChuck? Just as CMI. Save the damsel, defeat the villain. Hey; that sounds like SMI. The goofiness is build around it, as was the way with SMI and LCR. Instead of killing you, I lock you in this UNESCAPABLE death-trap of which their is no escape and leave you all alone to escape and continue to do something else.
Could have been from Austin Powers. Or, well, LCR and CMI.
I think you give LeChuck too much credit. He always was the silly villain. He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics (by needing to stop him through a several-stage puzzle in a rollercoaster ride) and the story (by having him shoot at Guybrush with a cannon at the start, for one).
Even *trying* to directly kill Guybrush is more threatning and villanous than what LeChuck did in both the previous games... Yet, the colour pallete is darker, and has become so throughout the game. Sunshine at Plunder, night at Blood, still night at the Park. If you were a fan of darker colour pallete's when things get more serious, why do you suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, exclude Curse?
As such...
"Note that Curse has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes." So, to get this straight, CMI is damned because it ignores the previous 2 games, but OH MY... it tries to include things of the previous 2 games. That sucks SO much. It should not have included swordfighting or continuation from the MI2 ending, you know, even though I complain they didn't.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess?
Please, make up your mind. I recall no overt brightness during the final puzzle, but that may be just me. Okay. In that case, I revert back to my original question. Why is CMI crucified and ToMI "good stuff" if ToMI definitely proceeds along the line CMI set out. From "brightness" to the piratey theme. And the voices. No, it's not. It's the perfect example of how a weak ending on a very good game (like LCR) allows for speculation for years to come. Odd argument from someone who claims storyline and deepness are everything, but I'll go along for now.
You (say you) like a good story, deep, dark, and stuff. Then would you prefer it if that ended with a sloppy weak ending nullifying everything. Take KOTOR (since you know it) would the ending be better if on the Star Forge Malak said "now witness the power of the Star Forge", a cutscene ran where you died, and the ending was a pre-determined 'doomed galaxy, whatever you did was pointless'... credits?
That would be bad storytelling. I don't need a happy ending, but atleast a resolution to the story, so everything that happens in the story isn't completely nullified. I wouldn't mind reading a book if the story ended with the hero getting killed or something similar, a dark ending where stuff went completely bad (See: Each ending of the series "24"). 24 Season 1 had a good ending, even if the hero found his wife dead in it. If it would have ended with a beeper going off, he wakes up, and all 24 hours where just a dream, then yes... I call a piss-poor ending. Don't say I disagree. For starters, I wasn't particular happy with ToMI's ending either, short, happy, etc.
A surprising ending, like he actually being stuck at the crossroads as some suggested, I would have preffered more.
Congratulations, you found them
No matter where's anyone's preference , and while i'm far from being as harsh on Curse as Rather Dashing, I can't understand why so many people don't seem to get the fact that many of what caused Escape to basically suck indeed started in Curse. Up until Tales, Curse WAS more or less "the begining of the end".
I'm not talking so much about the actual story, though it did have some flaws, but more about, well, the general atmosphere and tone. I don't care about the cartoony graphics, but i wholly agree with dashing's points on the cartoony story.
LeChuck just can't possibly be taken seriously (he dies because of dropping his own voodoo cannonball... Heck, he even dies TWICE in the game!) and with him all sense of a real threat is gone. I do think he remains a cool character, but he's definitely not the the "real" LeChuck anymore.
And concerning the "more piratey feel" thing, this never meant EVERYONE has to be a real hardcore pirate !
Of course Revenge had that laundry guy and wally, secret had the shopkeeper and the circus brothers, stan's NEVER been a pirate by any means, and so on... Just because it's a pirate setting doesn't mean everyone's got to be a pirate, quite the contrary actually. You need those background characters, they add depht, realism or whatever to the setting.
The difference is that, in secret for instance, you had those "normal" blokes, AND some more serious pirates (the SCUMM Bar patrons, the guys wandreing the street...). Sure they've never been that threatening or serious, since it's always been about fun, but still, they had that "actual pirate" vibe.
Now starting in Curse, suddenly everyone is a pirate, and at the same time no one is a pirate. Retired pirate turned barber, pirate cook, pirate shakespearian actor... Everyone basically claims to be a pirate while definitely not BEING one. This got worse in Escape, and even to some extent in tales (pirate glassblower ??).
Basically, the goofyness which, sure, had always been part of the monkey island, became much more central in curse, and i can't see how anyone can deny it. It went from "let's have some fun with a pirate story" to "let's tell a story about funny pirates", and that's just not quite the same thing.
Now, as i said, i ain't nearly as harsh on Curse than Rather Dashing. Even if it all bugs me a little and if i do feel that some of that special thingie that made the first two games is gone, i still see these flaws as rather minor and they don't prevent me from enjoying the game. I think these "bad points" overall didn't go too far, and there's still SOME balance between serious and goofy, at least enough to retain a lot of the monkey island feel. But as i understand it, Dashing's point is not that Curse sucked, but that what made Escape suck started there. It's okay to prefer the Curse's atmopshere to the previous ones', but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.
Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses. That witch like old lady's betrayal was predictable right from the start but the actual betrayal didn't make any sense. I pretty much stopped paying attention to the story from then on and just considered the game a fun star wars hack and slash, so in the end the ending didn't bother me, since it all had stopped making sense way before that.
This is definitely not the same thing as Revenge's ending, which in itself might make no sense at all, but what came before did. Sure it is frustrating, and i understand why people could hate it, but it's definitely not due to actual storytelling flaw.
If anyone's studied music theory, they probably know than just like stories a lot of it revolves around tension and resolution. The easiest way to play around that in music is to play around with those chords called the I chord and the V chord : the later brings tension, and the former resolves it. An awful lot of music pieces, be it symphonies or stupid jingle tunes, will end with a V to I chord movement.
Well in one of the latest song we wrote with my band, we decided to end it on the V chord, and NOT resolve it to the I. We just stop there, and the song clearly doesn't sound finished. We set up tension and we chose not to resolve it. I personally think it's great (certainly not original, even though i can't think of any exemple right now it's definitely been done before, and it sure wouldn't work in any context), but i'm sure a lot of people are gonna hate that ending.
Well revenge's ending is exactly that. It doesn't only stops on the V chord, it switches to some totally unrelated key and leaves everything hanging there. This create an awful lot of tension and expectation, and it's definitely not a pleasing ending. It doesn't conclude anything, actually it's quite the opposite of a conslusion. And yes, it's frustrating, and just like my band's song, it's obvious some people are going to hate it. But no matter what you think of it, it's not lazyness or poor story telling. It's been said that the ending was Ron Gilbert's way of making sure the series couldn't continue without him. I don't care if that's true or not, but if it is, well he still did so in a very clever and thought out way. It MIGHT ruin the future of the series, but not the game itself.
Okay, that post is way too long already, so i guess i'll shut up now. I do enjoy reading this thread a great deal, even if i don't have so much to add. Reminds me, in a more focused way, of Sladdersomethin (can't remember his exact screen name) thread about the tone of monkey island. If anyone likes this thread and haven't already read that other one, i can only encourage them to check it out.
What really reminded me of LCR in Tales was the way LeChuck will randomly show up while you're looking for the Diet of the Senses ingredients in the physical world, mock you, and throw you back into the Crossroads. I don't know if he shows up in all the locations, but he certainly does in the Flotsam jungle and Club 41, and it really does give you the feeling that there's no escape from him.
If you really need some explenation try the "Let's Play Kotor2" walkthrough (google it!). Not only does it excellently explain the story for those who didn't grasp it, it mentions what was cut, and is very funny to boot...
Actually, the way I read it was:
- Guybrush is actually a kid (1)
- Guybrush is trapped by LeChuck's magic (2) (By the way, the way I see it that's Curse's explanation)
- Big Whoop is a portal to another world (3)
About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
It's a possibility.
After reading this, I just had a thought that rather than LeChuck being the "owner" of the sponge, I think it likely that The Voodoo Lady, being in a jail cell adjacent to LeChuck's. had enough time to talk to him and... *ahem* "let slip" information to him about how to extract Voodoo from the sponge. She had time alone to talk to him, and even if he suspected that what she might say would be for her own plans, how could he pass up the chance to use it?