Bought Tales for the Mac, unfortunately not pleased
The short version: I don't like adventure games.
Warning, spoilery, but you've probably all finished the game by now.
The long version: I have generally enjoyed the story elements and exploration of adventure games, but often found myself getting stuck far too frequently to really enjoy the ride. I'll play the game for an hour or two, and then be stuck, and the enjoyment just turns to annoyance.
I got the demo from the website, and it seemed extremely approachable, so decided to purachase the whole set. Things started well, with smooth fun sailing from the start of the game until the three piratey achievements were satisfied. Then things started to go off the rails:
After I talked to deep gut, I was kind of unsure where to go or what to do next. I wandered around at random, and managed to encounter and solve the Doctor experience, collect the cheese, and get the manatee vision. But I was unable to find anything to do with these things. For whatever reason, the glassblower had been so thoroughly unehlpful in the past, it didn't occur to talk to him, and I made no progress at all until I went and started reading your walkthrough.
Other problems happened after that:
- I couldn't make heads or tails of some of the wind-direction following actions in the maze. I was doing it right (I only knew by reading walkthroughs after repeated failures) and could only get through the sections by very very slow trial and error. In the second wind-follow location, the game was clearly bugging out with the arrow jumping all over the place.
- It wasn't at all clear to me that the face that dropped off the gate was an item I could pick up.
- I'd tried to put the windlass whatever thing into the top of so many statue-things that by the time I was supposed to do it I no longer believed it was the right thing to do.
- Pressing the cheese into the eyes would never have occurred to me in a million years. I was busy trying to add items to the cheese or carve markings into it with items in my inventory.
- By the time I had the final showdown with the doctor, I wasn't even trying anymore, I just went to the walkthrough to get the answer.
Much of this would be addressable by:
- Making it easier to discover what is an item in game. Hunting for clickables isn't really that fun. I tried the F4 feature, but it never worked. Is this a joke from windows people? (alt-F4?) I pressed it many times on the mac and never got a result. How about a mode where everything interactable is always outlined, even if it's not game-advancing, for those who don't enjoy hunting for things.
- Improving the hint system. When I have no idea where to go to advance and there's only one possible place in the game, simply walking from area to area clicking on everything isn't fun, for me. It's just a nuisance. If guybrush says "i should probably get some more items", that doesn't really help me. I usually figured that out by the point he says it, but reviewing the entire world until I get another item isn't fun for me. I should be able to say "more specific hint, please". Once I have to resort to the walkthrough, the fun just kind of falls apart.
Additionally, I had traverse the maze several unnecessary times (mazes are annoying!) before it was apparent I could just click on the picture of the island. Labelling the targettable destinations preemptively would have saved a lot of trouble.
I played through the second episode as well, but my heart wasn't really in it, and I mostly just used a walkthrough.
Some of the low points:
- In the opening, I never considered the cable as an interactable item. Stuck from the very opening, in a looping sequence.
- Making the replacement artifact made no sense at all .. one way it cools, the other it doesn't? what?
- Another maze
- Again I missed a crucial item, this time the heat control. I walked over the game world twice while not spotting it, until I asked the walkthrough.
- A lot of fuss made about the tree logs (which guybrush walks around inordinately slowly when you try to do things with them) which never were any use at all.
- In no way did it make sense that the pirates buried the treasure on another island. They clearly take your raft to do it, which the game doesn't present as a valid means of leaving the local island group. I spent a long time trying to find it locally before again consulting the walkthrough.
Again, focused hint system or more playtesting on the clueing would have made this a vastly better game.
Maybe I'm just terrible at adventure games. I'm perfectly willing to accept that. I've talked about them with various peers of mine (same age group, overlapping background etc) and most of them love them and I have not.
However, I had the perception this was trying to be more accessible, and I think it was just not successful at all. The same problems the genre has always had are present here. Unless you enjoy wandering around the zones re-checking stuff multiple times, you're likely to have significant dead time. And when you feel stuck, the only options are to pretty much "tough it out" or read a walkthrough which often causes you to miss the point -- you don't experience the connections and what leads to your conclusion that is one of the joys of the experience when it's working.
I would highly recommend it to any classic adventure game fan. I would not recommend it to anyone who doesn't already claim to enjoy classic adventure games.
Warning, spoilery, but you've probably all finished the game by now.
The long version: I have generally enjoyed the story elements and exploration of adventure games, but often found myself getting stuck far too frequently to really enjoy the ride. I'll play the game for an hour or two, and then be stuck, and the enjoyment just turns to annoyance.
I got the demo from the website, and it seemed extremely approachable, so decided to purachase the whole set. Things started well, with smooth fun sailing from the start of the game until the three piratey achievements were satisfied. Then things started to go off the rails:
After I talked to deep gut, I was kind of unsure where to go or what to do next. I wandered around at random, and managed to encounter and solve the Doctor experience, collect the cheese, and get the manatee vision. But I was unable to find anything to do with these things. For whatever reason, the glassblower had been so thoroughly unehlpful in the past, it didn't occur to talk to him, and I made no progress at all until I went and started reading your walkthrough.
Other problems happened after that:
- I couldn't make heads or tails of some of the wind-direction following actions in the maze. I was doing it right (I only knew by reading walkthroughs after repeated failures) and could only get through the sections by very very slow trial and error. In the second wind-follow location, the game was clearly bugging out with the arrow jumping all over the place.
- It wasn't at all clear to me that the face that dropped off the gate was an item I could pick up.
- I'd tried to put the windlass whatever thing into the top of so many statue-things that by the time I was supposed to do it I no longer believed it was the right thing to do.
- Pressing the cheese into the eyes would never have occurred to me in a million years. I was busy trying to add items to the cheese or carve markings into it with items in my inventory.
- By the time I had the final showdown with the doctor, I wasn't even trying anymore, I just went to the walkthrough to get the answer.
Much of this would be addressable by:
- Making it easier to discover what is an item in game. Hunting for clickables isn't really that fun. I tried the F4 feature, but it never worked. Is this a joke from windows people? (alt-F4?) I pressed it many times on the mac and never got a result. How about a mode where everything interactable is always outlined, even if it's not game-advancing, for those who don't enjoy hunting for things.
- Improving the hint system. When I have no idea where to go to advance and there's only one possible place in the game, simply walking from area to area clicking on everything isn't fun, for me. It's just a nuisance. If guybrush says "i should probably get some more items", that doesn't really help me. I usually figured that out by the point he says it, but reviewing the entire world until I get another item isn't fun for me. I should be able to say "more specific hint, please". Once I have to resort to the walkthrough, the fun just kind of falls apart.
Additionally, I had traverse the maze several unnecessary times (mazes are annoying!) before it was apparent I could just click on the picture of the island. Labelling the targettable destinations preemptively would have saved a lot of trouble.
I played through the second episode as well, but my heart wasn't really in it, and I mostly just used a walkthrough.
Some of the low points:
- In the opening, I never considered the cable as an interactable item. Stuck from the very opening, in a looping sequence.
- Making the replacement artifact made no sense at all .. one way it cools, the other it doesn't? what?
- Another maze
- Again I missed a crucial item, this time the heat control. I walked over the game world twice while not spotting it, until I asked the walkthrough.
- A lot of fuss made about the tree logs (which guybrush walks around inordinately slowly when you try to do things with them) which never were any use at all.
- In no way did it make sense that the pirates buried the treasure on another island. They clearly take your raft to do it, which the game doesn't present as a valid means of leaving the local island group. I spent a long time trying to find it locally before again consulting the walkthrough.
Again, focused hint system or more playtesting on the clueing would have made this a vastly better game.
Maybe I'm just terrible at adventure games. I'm perfectly willing to accept that. I've talked about them with various peers of mine (same age group, overlapping background etc) and most of them love them and I have not.
However, I had the perception this was trying to be more accessible, and I think it was just not successful at all. The same problems the genre has always had are present here. Unless you enjoy wandering around the zones re-checking stuff multiple times, you're likely to have significant dead time. And when you feel stuck, the only options are to pretty much "tough it out" or read a walkthrough which often causes you to miss the point -- you don't experience the connections and what leads to your conclusion that is one of the joys of the experience when it's working.
I would highly recommend it to any classic adventure game fan. I would not recommend it to anyone who doesn't already claim to enjoy classic adventure games.
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Comments
Also, what hint setting where you set as? A higher one might help you enjoy the game more.
I'm legitimately curious as to why you bought this game.
The other major difference which seems to be present is how we both treat the inevitable situation of being stuck. A lot of people on here are happy to explore the setting when they're stuck. I go one step further and say that getting stuck, for me, is actually pretty awesome. It allows you to see all that the setting has to offer, find all the little hidden jokes and dialogue (which a good adventure company makes sure to flood its game with), and, ultimately, be playing the game for longer. I see getting stuck as increasing gameplay, you seem to see it as preventing gameplay.
It is these two points that are a recipe for disaster. They make consulting a walkthrough almost inevitable. That cannot be very enjoyable for you, but I'm not totally sure gamers of your type make up a significant proportion of the audience in order for telltale to change its formula.
One idea you had, which I thought was nice, was the "more specific clue please" option for people on maximum hint setting. By only having it available for maximum hinters, it means that only players similar to you will be affected, and if it's what you guys want, then that cannot be a bad idea.
I, for one, like adventure games, even if I suck tremendously at them. However ToMI is so easy, that even an adventure loser such as myself only needed a walkthrough once the entire season at the highest possible difficulty. ToMI is just *that* easy.
But if that's still *far* too much, you should really consider another genre to play.
PS. Apparently the "F4" (is it F4? I never knew what button it was) is only for graphic levels 4 and up...
They feature story and interaction, without most of the puzzle elelements.
That would probably make the perfect genre for the OP. But considering the critisim mentioned on ToMI I doubt (s)he will enjoy other adventures at all, so why suggest them if all that will do is cause more irritation than fun?
True about RPGs. They might be the way forward, I dunno.
About easier adventure games, not all of TMI cause irritation rather than fun. The OP said they enjoyed it up until the end of the 3 quests. If there is a game which is about that level of ease all the way through, then that'd be grand.
Odd how that works...
Well, I thought it was for graphic level 7 and up.
Personally, I have to say that if you hate adventure games, it's probably a bad idea to play them. Telltale games are better than most considering what you dislike about adventure games, since they're easier even on the "no hints" setting.
But if you get stuck with maximal hints I really think the genre isn't for you. I'm sorry.
1. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the hint system can be adjusted to be more specific. Make sure you've tried that.
2. The UHS (Universal Hint System) website is a godsend for people who get stuck, but just want a nudge in the right direction without too much of the experience being spoiled. Not every adventure game is covered, but most are -- especially high-profile ones like ToMI. Visit this page here:
http://www.uhs-hints.com/uhsweb/tales-mi.php
It might not be EXACTLY what you want (some hint authors are better clue-givers than others), but it's still a sight better than your typical walkthrough.
3. You mentioned two things: something fell, and it didn't occur to you that you could pick it up; and you didn't go back and talk to a guy because it hadn't been helpful in the past. It can be frustrating to learn that you were wrong on these counts, but hey -- those are lessons you don't have to learn again: (1) Try to pick up everything that's not nailed down, and (2) Converse with people again once events have happened or circumstances have changed. Your expectations are adjusted now, and perhaps that'll mean you enjoy the game more.
4. Don't judge the whole game by the first chapter! In my opinion, the next three chapters just keep getting stronger. (The final chapter was, I thought, still quite strong -- but apart from the story aspect, I can't say it was better-designed -- adventure game-wise -- than the two chapters preceding it. I do think it's stronger than the first two chapters.)
Let us know how it turns out!
I have yet to hear of anyone on here who can run the game on anything higher than graphic level 3.
If you're tempted to play adventure games in the future, I second Admonisher's suggestion to definitely check out uhs-hints.com. It might just be what you're looking for!
Adventure games are about picking up everything you possibly can, talking to everyone and having all possible conversations, exploring every location and running your mouse across the screen for every hotspot, thinking about how what you've found may be able to help you with another puzzle, and generally thinking outside the box. If you don't play them much or are new to the genre, they can be quite overwhelming at first!
Anyway, it was cool of you to give it a go even if it's not your usual thing. Sorry you didn't enjoy it. Like Hassat mentioned, you sound like you might be an RPG person.
But play the whole season using a walkthrough... (that's what I did whith MY first point and click adventure game- The secret of monkey island)
After playing adventure games with walkthroughs a few times, they become enjoyable, as you know most of the puzzle structure reused in most adventure games.
Then, you can become sucked into the game world and enjoy the story and humour.
just for you then, I'll tell you I can run it at level 9 in 1440 x 900 resolution.
level 9 at 1680 x 1050 here
Level 9 at 1280x1024
It's a shame you seemed to hate it so much....
Level 9 on 1280x1040 here without problems, even with Livestream streaming it.
You mean just for the Mac? If not, I am running it at Level 7.
Read the rest of the post? The reason is right there. This experience caused me to realize I just don't like the genre at all.
I think this underlines that there's strong genre conventions that players are expected to know. However your other points agree with my conclusions that this genre just isn't for me.
I *do* enjoy exploring all the dialogue options, and then when I get stuck, everyone starts repeating the same jokes. Slowly. Text versions (say Secret of Monkey Island 1) are not nearly so tedious as the audio versions. The repeated delivery of the same lines in the same exact way is necessary for the game to signal "no, there's really nothing more here", but it's annoying.
-5 for unnecessary rudeness.
I finished Secret of Monkey Island back in the day, and overall enjoyed it. I played with friends on dorm though, and probably talked with them when I was stuck, which was much more satisfying than my options this time around. Gamers tend to claim "x is easy" with little consideration. Easiness is not a continuum, it's personal.
The game defaults to graphic level 9.
As above, I enjoyed Secret of Monkey Island, although LeChuck's revenge was too arbitrary (can't put dirt in the bucket to make things dirty.. only swamp muck?) I played the first halves of Zak McKracken, and Day of the Tentacle. I finished Loom. Going older: I finished Zork, Bureaucracy, Ballyhoo and some other infocom games, but leaned significantly on their excellent invisiclues. Seems like some background in the genre to me.
It left the camera. I moved it about a bit but it wasn't there, so I assumed it wasn't in the game. In general the moving (and reframing) camera I think exacerbates this sort of camera. I rarely made this class of error in older adventure games.
This is great. I spent a while searching for hints, but google fails at screening out shovelware walkthrough clone sites. Recommendation: incorporate this data (or this type of data) into the game itself. You don't want to spoil the game experience for those who would have more fun with a little struggle. Infocom provided it as a seperate physical item, which obviously doesn't work in a download, but it could be a seperate interface or something you go access from the menu.
Tried that.
Another way the games led me astray, was when conversations would prematurely end, signalling there wasn't more to do there. For example in episode 2, my conversation with LeChuck just ended the first time saying he was going to do it himself, which made me think I had to do things independently of him. I went and found him another item, and gave it to him, and he thanked me, but it didn't occur to me to start talking to him again. If the game drops the conversation with say.. the character being angry, or demanding something, or expressing confusion, then the meaning is signalled. But if they express just disinterest in further communication, then that should be a clue to go do something else for now.
Four
I will prolly make you sad too.
I remember playing Secret of Monkey Island for the first time through, and back in that day the Net wasn't around. My parents did have Prodigy, though and I distinctly recall getting stuck and asking for help on the gaming forum there, then getting myself unstuck before I got an answer, stuck again, asking for more help, getting myself unstuck again... and so on until someone asked me to stop flooding the forum with questions.
I love adventure games, and am in no way ashamed to admit that I often consult walkthroughs/FAQs when I get stuck.
Have you finished all the way through Rise of the Pirate God yet? It doesn't sound like you have. At some point, I would think the story of the game would take hold of you and you'd get sucked in, considering the MI games are the best I've ever played....
I take that back. For a long time, the King's Quest series (V, VI and VII primarily) was my favorite, but that was back before Curse of Monkey Island came out. (Groan if you want, gamers, but I hated the end of MI2.) Curse usurped the title of favorite adventure game for me, and has been so ever since, until Tales came out, which at worst gives it a run for it's money, imo.
...but I digress. If you hate the LucasArts and Telltale adventure games in which you can not die (edit: I mean a Game Over sort of die) or get permanently stuck, you should definitely avoid any and all Sierra On-Line adventure games, since you can die for standing in the same spot for too long, or be permanently stuck after reaching a place where you need an item but forgot to pick it up earlier.
My Laptop's native res. is 1280x800 and likes level 3 (so the mouse doesn't lag.)
They both look great.
Quality 9 at 1600x900!
On that account, 1440x900, level 9, few years old computer (for one, single core *gasp*).
You can skip lines with the right mouse-button. So if you already heard them. But yeah, I share your pain here. However, in Sam&Max Season 3 they will give distinguish visually between lines that will repeat and new stuff. Yay! Just calling it as I see it. You can say the same to me. Hell, I even wrote "even an adventure loser such as me" in the very same post. Not really, 9 options down to 1, reduced inventory, screens, hotspot etc. make it overly obvious this game is easier than most other adventures. Think 3 timelines Day of the Tentacle, or act II of LeChuck's Revenge. Blood/Plunder Island of CMI.
I am not afraid to state I finished neither game without a walkthrough, they are just hard. Even needed several times for the Sam&Max seasons. But ToMI. Not much as stated.
I suppose it can be I got experience by now, but overall I would just have to state it's the lack of difficulty, since I don't really think I've gotten that much better. Still had to refer often in Runaway 1 and 2 for example. Nice CV. That's a... pretty impressive list for someone who dislikes adventure games
Also, all these games are so more complex than ToMI that I find it hard to believe you haven't picked adventure conventions like stealing *everything* already.
Isn't this more a case of rushing through the game due to having less spare time than in the past to spend on gaming, therefore not fully enjoying what makes adventure games adventure games? The joy of finally finding the solution to the problem you were facing and the satisfaction of doing so...? This is an adventure game. Talk till you drop. Especially in humorous adventure games like ToMI, it's almost a goal by itself to annoy people who no longer wish to talk to you.
"Leave me alone!"
*click again*
"Didn't I just told you, get lost?"
*click again*
etc.
There should really be a manual packaged with the game or on the website. I do read those things.
Seems smart.
Yes really. Just because some things are streamlined doesn't make it necessarily easier. One gamer might find the one you presume to be harder easier, because things just clicked for them, while they get stuck in the streamlined game.
Not to disagree that these seem easier than Monkey Island 2, that's my experience too. But I think "X is easy" is just a silly way to demean a game experience. Some people will struggle, some will not. Claiming it's easy doesn't make it more fun.
Here's an illuminating comment: I find playing Go much easier than adventure games. I also find bicycling 150 miles at a stretch easier than adventure games.
I enjoyed myself playing those games. But mostly I think I brought the fun to the games, and enjoyed sharing the experience with others. I basically came to the final conclusion that I don't like the genre with this experience.
I know you're supposed to get items in these games. That didn't look like an item to me, but instead decoration. Shrug.
It's not time, but it's probably effort. I'm a lot less interested in expending effort trying to satisfy a game these days. In the old days I would play fairly demanding action games over and over in an attempt to master them. These days I have no interest unless I can have some success right away.
I've come to expect an experience out of games MUCH more like a book than I would have in the past. I want to be provoked, to think about what's going on, to be engaged, and to have fun. I would like to be interested in what's there, and to participate in it. I'm not really interested in an experience which repeatedly comes to a halt because it's not clear what to do.
It's a pretty big shift, I suppose, and one that means these games just probably aren't for me anymore.
The demo was so incredibly accessible that I thought things had changed in games as well. I think that was probably the biggest misstep in the design -- making the demo so unrepresenative of the gameplay.
Oh well, I'm canvassing my friends to see who I can transfer my ownership to, in the hopes that it will help drive interest in TellTale.
Yeah, too bad pretty much everyone I know won't have a bar of point and click games. They're all FPS crazy.
I always play it on 9
(Okay, well, other threads mentioned it, with the graphics requirements, but I never found anywhere saying what button to press) True. Still, the fact remains ToMI is easier than most other adventure games around. After all; you say so yourself too... Oh... I agree. It's just a lot more exhausting. Decorum should be attempted to get stolen too. You fail at Kleptomany
(It helps that game is basically mostly a digitial book... expect a lot of reading) Like many demo's, it's the beginning of the game/the tutorial. I can't recall a tutorial ever being representative of the gameplay of a game. And usually the beginning isn't really a good representetive either.
RTS'es may provide a solution by giving a mission further along the lines, or a skirmish map, same with FPS'es. But for Adventures and RPG's it's pretty difficult to do otherwise, since just plunging the player in the middle is going to be pretty confusing, even if it's more representative than the start.
Documentation fail.
I continue to believe this is personal experience, because that's the only part that matters.
Many would disagree!
I enjoy RPGs, for the most part. Last I checked, Torment was windows only.
When it was released, I wasn't a mac user, only Linux.
I can't ever remember it not. I think this one you're just making it up.
Adventure games may not demo very well, certainly in their heyday you just bought the game. Personally I just pirated the game then, and bought it after if I liked it and had enough allowance at the time.
In any event, I handed my purchase over to a friend, who will probably love it. I was sad that solutions weren't found to make adventure games accessible to a vastly wider audience, but it's really not that important.
edit: "I was sad that solutions weren't found to make adventure games accessible to a vastly wider audience" see this can be a negative, make the games too easy and they're no longer adventure games that actual fans would want, I think the Wii alone has done enough dumbing down for gaming in recent years along with the explosion in FPS games.
Monkey Island, S&M season 101: A puzzle on a single screen. Obviously that's a lot easier than all the other puzzles that are going to be in a game.
Deus Ex: First level didn't quite feature the intrigue and such the rest of the game offered.
Etc.
Level 9 at 1680x1050.