Yes, that's how it worked for Sam & Max. And Telltale has stated repeatedly that they broke away from that because they were limited by being forced to show the floor of every reachable area.
[...] pathfinding is not difficult. Taking a screen click position and transforming it into a ray in world space is not difficult. Colliding that ray against the ground is not difficult. Difficulty has nothing to do with why we went with Click+Drag.
Real life programming for really-reals means functional options get thrown out because they do not fit the client's requirements, or they would introduce too much overhead or uncertainty in the production schedule. Difficulty is not evaluated for an option that does not fit the design requirements or other initial criteria.
Besides, you all realize we had Point+Click in our older games, right? It was purposely removed.
[...]finding the shortest path can be excruciatingly slow and is generally unsuited for real-time applications, since you have to exhaust the search space (to take negative and other strange edge weights into account, as an example).
(Hotspots) would need to be placed manually for every camera in every scene (and moved for moving cameras), and logic would need to be wired up to determine which hotspot should be active. It creates a dependency hierarchy in which a change to a camera means somebody has to change the hotspots in that scene. Since cameras in different scenes are set up at different times and cameras can change throughout development, this is not a good solution.
There solutions that work from a programmer's perspective, but are no good from an engineering or production perspective. This is one of them.
You still have to ensure that the hotspot is visible from any camera where you would care to click it, and the entire system would require a lot of manual set-up that direct control does not. The hot-spots cost time and money in implementation and testing any time a scene's cameras are set up, direct control only had to be implemented and tested one time.
Certainly not for a single object. Regardless, hotspots don't solve the problem of needing to walk toward the camera when you can't see what's behind it.
Yes, that's how it worked for Sam & Max. And Telltale has stated repeatedly that they broke away from that because they were limited by being forced to show the floor of every reachable area.
Then you click on a wall, or switch to click/drag. What's the deal?
To all the people insisting that point and click could work in Tales: It really couldn't. We aren't lying. Just because you don't know or fully understand the reason for something doesn't mean that something isn't true.
Consider the possibilities:
1. By a strange coincidence, you happen to know more about this than the professional programmers who worked on the game, and point and click really would have been possible, contrary to the beliefs of said programmers.
2. Point and Click genuinely couldn't have been implemented because of reasons known to and talked about at length by the programmers.
3. Everybody who says that it couldn't work is lying
Point and click impossible? What are you guys smoking? It's a little thing that's been invented for many years now called "pathfinding." It's the same way you point and click on objects in TMI and Guybrush goes directly to it. P&C on the ground has been in RTS forever, even today with all kinds of "depth" issues with moving the camera around in 3D. You guys underestimate the technical abilities of games these days.
Have you ever played an RTS game that didn't show the floor? I sure haven't. Besides Star Trek Armada, that is (which has no floor, obviously). Or Warcraft 3 which allows you to zoom in to an almost horizontal camera angle. But still, there was always the floor when you needed it. And boy did you need it.
I just played Narwhal long enough to wander around town for a few minutes and already found several places where point and click would suck because there's not much clickable real-estate on the screen because the camera is zoomed in close (as in right in front of the Gazette); or you can't see the ground (as in while walking on the bridge to DeSinge's place); or there could be multiple hotspots in front of each other (as in while standing on the beach near Club41.)
All of that aside... as Yare said, it takes a lot of time to program Point and Click and make sure it works, especially when the camera can be repositioned during development. Spending time on this may mean other things can get left out because they're on a deadline. TTG, being on a tight schedule because of the nature of monthly episode releases, wanted to design a control scheme that they knew would work after the first time they tested it. They don't have the time or the money to waste by reprogramming the controls and retesting the outcome every time they change the camera angle. They'd rather spend the time working on other stuff.
Suffice it to say, Point and Click is possibleif they had enough time to work on it, or had enough money to spend on getting that and everything else they wanted done, or if it meant so much to them that they'd rather have that at the expense of sacrificing working on something else.
Saying it's impossible to have point and click is idiotic. With a little extra programming it's very possible. It's just more evidence of lazy developers, along with the reused models.
We've talked this to death. If he doesn't want to read the old posts why can't we just ignore him. Please don't bring this up again...it's....it's too painful.
Sometimes I wish superfluous threads like this would be axed by Jake/Nikasaur...
*hand wave* "this isn't the thread your looking for"
"move along".
Bemoaning the architecture of a game that's already finished is petty, so you didn't like the method of movement used for the protagonist, big whoop!
We should be concentrating on constructive ways to influence Monkey Island, collaborating thought and ideas with Telltale. If your thread seems idiotic and only serves to debase the hard-work of the game's developers then there's not much point adding pointless threads to this forum...
It would seem evident, in the way of character movement or Point and click pathfinding after the first TOMI season, that Telltale has there mindset for future games based on MI's success.
Threads like this are what killed off LucasArts from pursuing Monkey Island beyond it's minor Escape hiccup. Don't impede Telltale from making future seasons because it's not modelled on your beloved 20 year old game.
Unless you have two hooks where your hands should be, and you can only master point and click instead of the 4-button W,A,S,D, then clearly this topic doesn't need to be furthered anymore.
A troll? I guess I can't voice my opinion. Goodbye. Too many thick-headed fans around here. Telltale can make a entire game with naked Guybrush casting spells at robot pixies and you all will defend it with your life.
A troll? I guess I can't voice my opinion. Goodbye. Too many thick-headed fans around here. Telltale can make a entire game with naked Guybrush casting spells at robot pixies and you all will defend it with your life.
I was thinking troll because those were all the typical statements said over and over and over again.
Would drawing out a diagram as to why it just can't work be necessary? I don't blindly defend something that doesn't deserve to be defended you know.
a troll? I guess i can't voice my opinion. Goodbye. Too many thick-headed fans around here. Telltale can make a entire game with naked guybrush casting spells at robot pixies and you all will defend it with your life.
When I posted saying it was possible, I got yelled at. But I was being a bit pedantic in my post - just saying that it was possible (although level design becomes constrained), since others had said it was "impossible", for poor reasons.
But the points have all been laid out well, and the comments supporting the change are very clear. Again. Hopefully someone will lock this thread soon. Please?
A troll? I guess I can't voice my opinion. Goodbye. Too many thick-headed fans around here. Telltale can make a entire game with naked Guybrush casting spells at robot pixies and you all will defend it with your life.
Wow, someone is a little over-sensitive. The bottom line is that click & drag and WASD controls are not difficult to use. If they ruined the game then I know that I, for one, would not be defending it. Basically, the way that I see it, point & click doesn't really make much sense except in 2D games or side-scrolling 3D game.
I still think it's kind of mean to want to keelhaul the folk who worked on the game. Keelhauling is kind of nasty. Not as bad as scaphism, but I digress.
A troll? I guess I can't voice my opinion. Goodbye. Too many thick-headed fans around here. Telltale can make a entire game with naked Guybrush casting spells at robot pixies and you all will defend it with your life.
You're coming in here saying everyone's an idiot for thinking P&C can't work and bringing the work that TTG have done down to the dirt and insulting them as well and then when you get called on it you get hurt and complain that you can't voice your opinion? Really?
Actually, exchanges are one pokemon for one pokemon. That's how it's programmed and everthing. Of course you can capture some pokemon that are found everywhere and use them as "filler", I guess.
btw, for those of you who don't understand this reference, the answer to both questions is "If you don't know by now, then you're not going to know SO STOP ASKING ALREADY."
Not many people would be prepared to take you up on that, but I will, because I like you. (salesperson arm drape)
I would. You can only get Squirtle from prof. Oak in Red and Blue, while you can catch Pikachu in pretty much every game somewhere. Also, Squirtle doesn't require evolutionary stones to evolve, and Pikachu has been shoved so far up his own ass by the anime that he has become a Klein bottle.
I would. You can only get Squirtle from prof. Oak in Red and Blue, while you can catch Pikachu in pretty much every game somewhere. Also, Squirtle doesn't require evolutionary stones to evolve, and Pikachu has been shoved so far up his own ass by the anime that he has become a Klein bottle.
*Presses Q to draw weapon, F3 to switch the machinegun, control to kneel.*
*Presses 1 to shoot shield disabling ability, then holds left mouse button to kill*
A troll? I guess I can't voice my opinion. Goodbye. Too many thick-headed fans around here. Telltale can make a entire game with naked Guybrush casting spells at robot pixies and you all will defend it with your life.
WE are thick headed, people have been giving perfect facts about why point n click wouldent work here, and your the one ignoring it just by saying "telltale is too lazy" if they are too lazy they wouldent add a crap load of stuff in the game to try and find(anyone found the banang dance yet;)) not even NINTENDO does that and they created motion video game controls on the wii(while microsoft improves it with Natal). So uhh your the thick-headed one here. And uh also telltale could create a blank screen call it monkey island and people will still buy it, WHO IS WITH ME!
*Presses Q to draw weapon, F3 to switch the machinegun, control to kneel.*
*Presses 1 to shoot shield disabling ability, then holds left mouse button to kill*
+162XP for killing a troll...
Oh, wait, different game.
Sounds familiar - Borderlands?
Also, could we please rename this thread "Keelhaul DeSinge" so it's about something we can agree on?
Comments
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Then you click on a wall, or switch to click/drag. What's the deal?
Consider the possibilities:
1. By a strange coincidence, you happen to know more about this than the professional programmers who worked on the game, and point and click really would have been possible, contrary to the beliefs of said programmers.
2. Point and Click genuinely couldn't have been implemented because of reasons known to and talked about at length by the programmers.
3. Everybody who says that it couldn't work is lying
Which of those possibilities is more likely?
Have you ever played an RTS game that didn't show the floor? I sure haven't. Besides Star Trek Armada, that is (which has no floor, obviously). Or Warcraft 3 which allows you to zoom in to an almost horizontal camera angle. But still, there was always the floor when you needed it. And boy did you need it.
All of that aside... as Yare said, it takes a lot of time to program Point and Click and make sure it works, especially when the camera can be repositioned during development. Spending time on this may mean other things can get left out because they're on a deadline. TTG, being on a tight schedule because of the nature of monthly episode releases, wanted to design a control scheme that they knew would work after the first time they tested it. They don't have the time or the money to waste by reprogramming the controls and retesting the outcome every time they change the camera angle. They'd rather spend the time working on other stuff.
Suffice it to say, Point and Click is possible if they had enough time to work on it, or had enough money to spend on getting that and everything else they wanted done, or if it meant so much to them that they'd rather have that at the expense of sacrificing working on something else.
We didn't say it wasn't possible. We said it was not feasible due to what they wanted to accomplish in the time allotted.
you know... I get the feeling you're just trolling.
Starting to get this feeling.
*hand wave* "this isn't the thread your looking for"
"move along".
Bemoaning the architecture of a game that's already finished is petty, so you didn't like the method of movement used for the protagonist, big whoop!
We should be concentrating on constructive ways to influence Monkey Island, collaborating thought and ideas with Telltale. If your thread seems idiotic and only serves to debase the hard-work of the game's developers then there's not much point adding pointless threads to this forum...
It would seem evident, in the way of character movement or Point and click pathfinding after the first TOMI season, that Telltale has there mindset for future games based on MI's success.
Threads like this are what killed off LucasArts from pursuing Monkey Island beyond it's minor Escape hiccup. Don't impede Telltale from making future seasons because it's not modelled on your beloved 20 year old game.
Unless you have two hooks where your hands should be, and you can only master point and click instead of the 4-button W,A,S,D, then clearly this topic doesn't need to be furthered anymore.
Would drawing out a diagram as to why it just can't work be necessary? I don't blindly defend something that doesn't deserve to be defended you know.
I want that game!!!!!!1
You didn't. But some people did.
When I posted saying it was possible, I got yelled at. But I was being a bit pedantic in my post - just saying that it was possible (although level design becomes constrained), since others had said it was "impossible", for poor reasons.
But the points have all been laid out well, and the comments supporting the change are very clear. Again. Hopefully someone will lock this thread soon. Please?
Wow, someone is a little over-sensitive. The bottom line is that click & drag and WASD controls are not difficult to use. If they ruined the game then I know that I, for one, would not be defending it. Basically, the way that I see it, point & click doesn't really make much sense except in 2D games or side-scrolling 3D game.
You're coming in here saying everyone's an idiot for thinking P&C can't work and bringing the work that TTG have done down to the dirt and insulting them as well and then when you get called on it you get hurt and complain that you can't voice your opinion? Really?
Goodbye.
Just saying.
(Is that how Pokemon works?)
Pretty sure it is, yeah.
Actually, exchanges are one pokemon for one pokemon. That's how it's programmed and everthing. Of course you can capture some pokemon that are found everywhere and use them as "filler", I guess.
Yare already said why in multiple posts, and I quoted most of them in one of mine: http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=283459&postcount=43
To any and all else who ask why they didn't use Point and Click, I will reiterate:
btw, for those of you who don't understand this reference, the answer to both questions is "If you don't know by now, then you're not going to know SO STOP ASKING ALREADY."
or... as Strong Bad would put it: "DELETED!!!"
Edit: found it:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8382
I would. You can only get Squirtle from prof. Oak in Red and Blue, while you can catch Pikachu in pretty much every game somewhere. Also, Squirtle doesn't require evolutionary stones to evolve, and Pikachu has been shoved so far up his own ass by the anime that he has become a Klein bottle.
Psst...
*whistles innocently*
*Presses 1 to shoot shield disabling ability, then holds left mouse button to kill*
+162XP for killing a troll...
...
...
...
Oh, wait, different game.
WE are thick headed, people have been giving perfect facts about why point n click wouldent work here, and your the one ignoring it just by saying "telltale is too lazy" if they are too lazy they wouldent add a crap load of stuff in the game to try and find(anyone found the banang dance yet;)) not even NINTENDO does that and they created motion video game controls on the wii(while microsoft improves it with Natal). So uhh your the thick-headed one here. And uh also telltale could create a blank screen call it monkey island and people will still buy it, WHO IS WITH ME!
Now it makes sense!
Still sucks though.
Also, could we please rename this thread "Keelhaul DeSinge" so it's about something we can agree on?
RPG's went to WASD some time ago too.