That dinner distribution puzzle - good but not-accepted solution

I've seen a few people bring this up, and some other people disbelieving, so I thought I'd demonstrate just what the issue is. The puzzle I'm talking about is helping Glori get the right dish to each patron.The title is Diners and Dishes.
Here's what I figured is a (and in fact the only) correct solution:
4lrqys.png
Let's go through the rules on this one:
  1. Nobody ordered a dish resembling their spouse. Check. (but see below)
  2. One lady ordered a dish resembling the fish-eating man next to her. Check.
  3. The icecream is next to the ham. Check?
  4. Exactly one patron has a dish resembling him/her. Check.
The only way this solution can be incorrect is if onion-man and fish-lady are spouses, but then the setup is misleadingly incomplete.
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Comments

  • edited July 2010
    Acctually one of the rules was the ham plate is next to the banana split
  • edited July 2010
    Drat, did I make that mistake again? Ok, then swap the chicken and the banana split in the above picture and the issue remains. I'll edit the first post soonish to reflect that.

    edit:I've edited the original post now
  • edited July 2010
    I dont think the banana split and ham plate being across from each other counts as being next to each other.
  • edited July 2010
    They're both on the short side of the table. That's as next to each other as the beefburger and onions.
  • edited July 2010
    The beef burger and onions are side by side if the pic above had the banana split and chicken swapped the ham would be across from the banana split not side by side with it.
  • edited July 2010
    Hm, I've figured out the flaw in my original reasoning now. Because I kept mixing up ham and beef, I kept eliminating the actual solution before correcting that mixup. Now I see how the actual solution does make more sense.
  • edited July 2010
    Harald B wrote: »
    4lrqys.png

    I was actually thinking about this solution too when I played the game. I still thing this should be one of the possible solutions.
  • edited July 2010
    Is the guy next to fish lady meant to look like a hamburger?
  • edited July 2010
    prizna wrote: »
    Is the guy next to fish lady meant to look like a hamburger?
    He's meant to look like a buffalo.
  • edited July 2010
    oh ok, I knew he was the hamburger but I didnt know how.
  • edited July 2010
    prizna wrote: »
    Is the guy next to fish lady meant to look like a hamburger?

    Him and chicken lady threw me off a wee bit, got there in the end though :)
  • UrdUrd
    edited July 2010
    I thought about that solution too, but as said, I assumed that the Fishy lady and Miss Piggy doen't qualify as sitting next to each other, since there could be sitting someoe at the from where the picture is taken.

    Also you woldn't say you sit next so the person, opposing you on a two-person table, wouldn't you?
  • edited July 2010
    Harald B wrote: »
    [*]Exactly one patron has a dish resembling him/her. Check.
    Which one, exactly?

    Yeah, I might have gotten some additional difficulty with this one not knowing what the hell the resemblance was aside from fishwoman, bananasplit man and onion man.

    Also, shouldn't porkwoman be the hamburger? *so very confused*
  • edited July 2010
    It is a buffalo hamburger, and the man resembles a buffalo, so the hamburger resembles him. Ham comes from pigs, so the porkwoman resembles the ham.
  • edited July 2010
    Urd wrote: »
    I thought about that solution too, but as said, I assumed that the Fishy lady and Miss Piggy doen't qualify as sitting next to each other, since there could be sitting someoe at the from where the picture is taken.

    Also you woldn't say you sit next so the person, opposing you on a two-person table, wouldn't you?

    Exactly. The whole issue with the OPs solution is that it assumes "next to" means "across from each other." But I suppose he could make a semantics argument...
  • edited July 2010
    Even though you can reason why the correct answer is the only one accepted, I agree that these kinds of issues should be dealt with - it's reasonable to presume that the picture above is a valid solution. There shouldn't be solutions like this (and the one in the sound wave puzzle) that seem like they're ok but aren't, because the game interprets the rules differently than a player might.

    Hot hawks had another similar issue. Also in the chair puzzle you were able to assemble the picture upside down, which wasn't a valid answer. The puzzles should be designed so that you don't have answers that might reasonably be mistaken for the correct one.
  • edited July 2010
    I'm going to look stupid but here goes: how were we meant to know who was married to who? I still don't understand.
  • edited July 2010
    Each couple is sitting together: fish woman is married to buffalo man, bananasplit man is married to chicken woman and onion man is married to pig woman.
  • edited July 2010
    So how can 1 and 2 ever be true?
  • edited July 2010
    that is definitely a possible solution. Across from does mean next to really.
  • edited July 2010
    In other semi related news, I like the scott c cameo.
    TheDog-copy.jpg


    NotFury wrote: »
    that is definitely a possible solution. Across from does mean next to really.
    ...no it doesn't.
  • edited July 2010
    So how can 1 and 2 ever be true?

    Because "next to" could be around a corner of the table as well.
  • edited July 2010
    Because "next to" could be around a corner of the table as well.

    That's precisely where the semantics of this puzzle get weird. Around the corner counts as "next to" for Rule 2, but the fish lady and the pig lady don't count as being "next to" each other for the banana split and ham.

    Essentially, the game treats the table as an open U shape, instead of a continuous rectangle, which is a bit odd.
  • edited July 2010
    razzberry wrote: »
    That's precisely where the semantics of this puzzle get weird. Around the corner counts as "next to" for Rule 2, but the fish lady and the pig lady don't count as being "next to" each other for the banana split and ham.

    Essentially, the game treats the table as an open U shape, instead of a continuous rectangle, which is a bit odd.

    Maybe a better rephrasing would be "the person who ate the banana split is next to the person who ate the ham." It's harder to argue that people across from each other are next to each other.
  • edited July 2010
    Maybe a better rephrasing would be "the person who ate the banana split is next to the person who ate the ham." It's harder to argue that people across from each other are next to each other.

    Or the picture could have had them all in a straight line. It may have looked a little odd, sense normally tables aren't set up like that, but I think suspension of disbelief would allow it for the purpose of this puzzle.
  • edited July 2010
    Linque wrote: »
    Even though you can reason why the correct answer is the only one accepted, I agree that these kinds of issues should be dealt with - it's reasonable to presume that the picture above is a valid solution. There shouldn't be solutions like this (and the one in the sound wave puzzle) that seem like they're ok but aren't, because the game interprets the rules differently than a player might.

    Hot hawks had another similar issue. Also in the chair puzzle you were able to assemble the picture upside down, which wasn't a valid answer. The puzzles should be designed so that you don't have answers that might reasonably be mistaken for the correct one.


    Yeah that chair puzzle got me too. I had to use all 3 hints to see it needed to be upside down.
  • edited July 2010
    So, what's the right solution?
  • edited July 2010
    This puzzle is sooo f*cked up!
    I used all three hints and still can't get to the solution!

    RULES:
    1. Nobody ordered a dish resembling their spouse.
    2. One lady ordered a dish resembling the fish-eating man next to her.
    3. The icecream is next to the ham.
    4. Exactly one patron has a dish resembling him/her.
    HINTS:
    1. The onion guy likes fish
    2. The banana guy likes banana split and the chicken woman likes burger
    3. The fish woman likes chicken

    So i did (clockwise from banana guy):
    Banana-burger-fish-onion-chicken-ham. WRONG?! WTF?!
  • edited July 2010
    Vitoner wrote: »
    This puzzle is sooo f*cked up!
    I used all three hints and still can't get to the solution!

    RULES:
    1. Nobody ordered a dish resembling their spouse.
    2. One lady ordered a dish resembling the fish-eating man next to her.
    3. The icecream is next to the ham.
    4. Exactly one patron has a dish resembling him/her.
    HINTS:
    1. The onion guy likes fish
    2. The banana guy likes banana split and the chicken woman likes burger
    3. The fish woman likes chicken

    So i did (clockwise from banana guy):
    Banana-burger-fish-onion-chicken-ham. WRONG?! WTF?!

    The hints you listed are not the ones in the game, the hints in the game are:
    Hint 1: The onion headed man loves to eat fish.
    Hint 2: The man who ordered the banana split LOOKS like a banana split.
    Hint 3: The fish-faced lady is a chicken-lover, while the ham lady prefers burgers.

    It says the ham lady likes burgers, not the chicken lady.
  • edited July 2010
    I've found the solution:
    a59b41b53258t.jpgb818397fd721t.jpg
  • edited July 2010
    This is a problem with many young puzzle games (the first Layton included), puzzle writers need to be VERY cognizant of semantics to make good puzzles. I had no problem with this puzzle, since I saw what they meant, but I definitely had this problem with other puzzles for similar reasons (the fish problem, didn't realize they meant EXACTLY one fish, and that fish swallowed SPECIFICALLY the fish just below them on the food chain.), though I have not used any of the hints, which would have cleared up any semantic issues, though do I really want to give up all of my medals to get three more stars?.
  • edited July 2010
    razzberry wrote: »
    That's precisely where the semantics of this puzzle get weird. Around the corner counts as "next to" for Rule 2, but the fish lady and the pig lady don't count as being "next to" each other for the banana split and ham.

    Essentially, the game treats the table as an open U shape, instead of a continuous rectangle, which is a bit odd.

    On one end of the table you have a couple sitting(chicken lady and banana split man), this creates a continuation of seats and properly seats them "next to" the buffalo and onion men. Notice how when they look at the people sitting next to them, they would look left or right. However on the other end of the table where the photo is taken from, there is no couple. The following person in the rotation is sitting directly opposite of them in symmetrical form. Notice they are looking straight at each other. This is an example of being "across" from somebody at a dinner table. It's not the same thing happening on both ends of the table guys.

    across.jpg

    It is treated as a U shape and not a rectangle because that is the shape the people are seated in.
  • edited July 2010
    That post is misleading for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the people on the sides nearer the top should be much further down, as in the picture. Secondly, the next to in question is about the plates, which are a rectangle. Here is how the people look around the table from top down, along with your lines, and additional pink splotches to show where the plates go:
    tablers.jpg
  • edited July 2010
    That post is misleading for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the people on the sides nearer the top should be much further down, as in the picture. Secondly, the next to in question is about the plates, which are a rectangle. Here is how the people look around the table from top down, along with your lines, and additional pink splotches to show where the plates go:
    tablers.jpg

    Regardless of how far up or down the couples are on the side, they are directly across from each other, while the couple at the end is still the continuation of people being next to each other. The other end doesn't have anybody present, and what would be a nice rectangle, or circle of people next to each other is broken. Essentially, the U shape is still intact and keeping in line with the rules of the puzzle.

    The rules themselves focus on which people are seated next to each other, not the plates. I can see how people are making a mistake in this puzzle by focusing on the plate placement and not the couples, due to the rectangular shape the plates make. Sure, the plates at the bottom are next to each other, but the people are directly across from each other. And therein lies the confusion...because the puzzle is talking about the placement of the people.
  • edited July 2010
    Urd wrote: »
    I thought about that solution too, but as said, I assumed that the Fishy lady and Miss Piggy doen't qualify as sitting next to each other, since there could be sitting someoe at the from where the picture is taken.

    Also you woldn't say you sit next so the person, opposing you on a two-person table, wouldn't you?

    And in fact there is someone (not necessarily sitting, but...) at the end of the table: the photographer.
  • edited July 2010
    You guys need to chill. If you take the table (and the z-axis) out of the picture and just look at the people, it is a line from left to right.

    Though to the TTG guys, human brains are presumptuous and arrogant, and when you don't make the rules of a puzzle explicitly clear, you get a bunch of pissed off people.
    ...
    Though I imagine you guys know that already.
  • edited July 2010
    nodoctors wrote: »
    Regardless of how far up or down the couples are on the side, they are directly across from each other, while the couple at the end is still the continuation of people being next to each other. The other end doesn't have anybody present, and what would be a nice rectangle, or circle of people next to each other is broken. Essentially, the U shape is still intact and keeping in line with the rules of the puzzle.

    The rules themselves focus on which people are seated next to each other, not the plates. I can see how people are making a mistake in this puzzle by focusing on the plate placement and not the couples, due to the rectangular shape the plates make. Sure, the plates at the bottom are next to each other, but the people are directly across from each other. And therein lies the confusion...because the puzzle is talking about the placement of the people.
    I'm not questioning that they are directly across from each other. I'm just showing that going round the corner meaning next to while across not isn't quite as easy to swallow as was implied in your picture.
    The rule in question says "the ice cream is next to the ham"
    It's not about people.
  • edited July 2010
    yeah, just played this and got it "wrong" even though i'd provided what was an acceptable solution in my eyes..

    it is due to the way that the meaning of "next to" changes between rule 2 and rule 3.

    in rule 2 "next to" is applied to the people (the person next to her)
    in rule 3, it is applied to the plates (the plates are next to each other)

    however, i don't think it's logical that "next to" for people counts for 'around the corner', and next to for plates (when they are arranged like :::) doesn't count. i see the U-shape argument, but it falls down, because on rule 3, we're no longer talking about the people's positioning - we're talking about the plates positioning - which are in more of a straight 2x3 grid.

    if rule 3 was changed to "one couple had the banana split and ham" - it would work, or "the banana split and ham were on the same side of the table".. or some other way of expressing this. i think 'next to' is too vague when we've already been allowed to use 'next to' in a loose-ish way for rule 2.

    oh well! enjoying this game a lot other than this! :)
  • edited July 2010
    yeah, just played this and got it "wrong" even though i'd provided what was an acceptable solution in my eyes..

    it is due to the way that the meaning of "next to" changes between rule 2 and rule 3.

    in rule 2 "next to" is applied to the people (the person next to her)
    in rule 3, it is applied to the plates (the plates are next to each other)

    however, i don't think it's logical that "next to" for people counts for 'around the corner', and next to for plates (when they are arranged like :::) doesn't count. i see the U-shape argument, but it falls down, because on rule 3, we're no longer talking about the people's positioning - we're talking about the plates positioning - which are in more of a straight 2x3 grid.

    if rule 3 was changed to "one couple had the banana split and ham" - it would work, or "the banana split and ham were on the same side of the table".. or some other way of expressing this. i think 'next to' is too vague when we've already been allowed to use 'next to' in a loose-ish way for rule 2.

    oh well! enjoying this game a lot other than this! :)

    In this type of puzzle, the people and the plates are the same, referring to a person implies their plate, and vice-versa. If you start thinking of them as separate, that is a fallacy in your own reasoning. Though, again, with a puzzle like this is can be hard to separate errors in one's own judgement from legitimate semantic problems with the puzzle, which makes it harder to correct or recognize those errors and could have caused them (inadvertently) in the first place.
  • edited July 2010
    alexonfyre wrote: »
    This is a problem with many young puzzle games (the first Layton included), puzzle writers need to be VERY cognizant of semantics to make good puzzles. I had no problem with this puzzle, since I saw what they meant, but I definitely had this problem with other puzzles for similar reasons (the fish problem, didn't realize they meant EXACTLY one fish, and that fish swallowed SPECIFICALLY the fish just below them on the food chain.), though I have not used any of the hints, which would have cleared up any semantic issues, though do I really want to give up all of my medals to get three more stars?.

    Actually, the rules say that:

    1) Each fish has one other fish inside, except the one with the key.
    3) All fishes dine on the next rung of the food chain (except tiny tanfish, who eat their own kind.)

    I'll agree that the rules for other puzzles were a bit vague though.
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