I'm not sure if the option "Sierra-style! If I'm not being tortured, it's not King's Quest!" is biased and written by a LucasArts style adventure game fanboy who doesn't understand the appeal of Sierra style adventure games* or if being tortured is something that an old-school Sierra-fan would consider a good thing and something to feel nostalgic and happy about.
I clicked Sierra-style. While it is no secret that Telltale is a direct descendant of the LucasArts model of making adventure games they can't think they can try to 'fix' the Sierra model of adventure games which so many people have loved and enjoyed.
King's Quest doesn't need to be as hard as the old Sierra games but Telltale can't abandon the game's roots. Like I said in another thread, if Telltale follow the LucasArts style of adventure games for KQ it would be tantamount to punching Sierra fans right in the family jewels!
*For the record, I'm a LucasArts style adventure game fanboy who doesn't understand the appeal of Sierra style adventure games.
Oh, I forgot to add: Every Sierra game had a point system, with more points being awarded for better puzzle solutions. Telltale's KQ should have a point list too!
Oh, I forgot to add: Every Sierra game had a point system, with more points being awarded for better puzzle solutions. Telltale's KQ should have a point list too!
Yes. And the point system served an important function in the old Sierra games; it let you know if you were on the right track. If you tried something, and you didn't get points for it, it was probably not the right thing to do, and so you knew you should go back and try something else. And I think that's a way more clever and interesting way of nudging players along than filling the entire top half of the screen with hint buttons and having the NPCs shout the puzzle solutions at you if you don't immediately solve them.
I picked middle ground. It just wouldn't be King's Quest without ridiculous unecessary danger, but many times the deaths were far too common and far too unpredictable in my opinion.
And it added to the replay value while making the game world feel more real. I remember in Quest for Glory V there was this lever that needed to be thrown, but from a distance. Boy, was I delighted to learn you could just pick up a rock and throw it at the lever - or a spear, if you liked. (Rather than having to find the sole item in the entire game world that could be used for this purpose.)
I voted middleground. Some token deaths should be there for doing really dumb things, but I don't want to be under constant threat of death for clicking the wrong rock or whatever like in the old days.
Or, make it super death heavy but also have autosaves before every death, making them painless.
I just don't want the game to hold my hand, tell me where to go, and protect me from any danger that may befall me. I doubt that's not what it will be, though.
I'm not sure if the option "Sierra-style! If I'm not being tortured, it's not King's Quest!" is biased and written by a LucasArts style adventure game fanboy who doesn't understand the appeal of Sierra style adventure games* or if being tortured is something that an old-school Sierra-fan would consider a good thing and something to feel nostalgic and happy about.
The use of the word "tortured" here proves that it's a LucasArts fan negatively biased against the Sierra form of play. There is this one-sided rivalry, where LucasArts fans absolutely despise Sierra and I've never met an analogous, opposite Sierra fan that hates LucasArts. A true Sierra fan would probably say "challenged", "held accountable", "face consequences", or something to that effect.
The use of the word "tortured" here proves that it's a LucasArts fan negatively biased against the Sierra form of play. There is this one-sided rivalry, where LucasArts fans absolutely despise Sierra and I've never met an analogous, opposite Sierra fan that hates LucasArts. A true Sierra fan would probably say "challenged", "held accountable", "face consequences", or something to that effect.
Sierra-style isn't as difficult as everyone makes it out to be, I think. The only real adjustment anyone had to make was to save a lot, which is probably a good idea anyway. I still save a lot at different points, even in Telltale games, which makes it easier to go back and do all the little dialog options you missed without having to start over.
Old Sierra games were made to be played with one hand on the arrow keys (or mouse) and the other hovering above the F5 key. It's a different mindset, but it's certainly not torture. (Running into deadends was more painful, but I think Sierra got better at eliminating those, or at least making it obvious that you missed something, in later games.)
I'm not sure if the option "Sierra-style! If I'm not being tortured, it's not King's Quest!" is biased and written by a LucasArts style adventure game fanboy who doesn't understand the appeal of Sierra style adventure games* or if being tortured is something that an old-school Sierra-fan would consider a good thing and something to feel nostalgic and happy about.
I really like the King's Quest series (even though I've always preferred LucasArts style), and I actually think that 'if I'm not being tortured, it's not King's Quest".
KQ5 has tortured me for 20 years now, and I've had a love-hate relationship with this game for most of my life.
As a kid I was stuck at the beginning of the game because I'd never have thought that a game would need you to Save - Go in the desert - Die - Restore - Start Again a number of times just to find 3 interesting places in a really big desert.
Then when I tried it again as a teen, I got stuck due to the cat and mouse situation described earlier in the thread. It took me around 5 years to figure it out. With hindsight, yeah, it was not that hard, but the problem is that it happens at the beginning of the game, and by the time you are actually stuck, you don't even remember that incident.
Then, when I finally got it, it was like the best day of my life... but only for a few minutes. I got the rope, tied it to a tree, started climbing and died. I was so pissed off I wasn't able to play the game for another couple of years.
Now I'm stuck in the final castle, getting my ass kicked by a wizard and another cat. Maybe in five years I'll realize that you have to drink from the pound in the first screen in order to finish the game, or that you can't beat the evil wizard if you haven't talked to the cow outside of the town. Who knows? (well if you do, please don't spoil me, I've sworn that I would defeat this game without help)
I really like the King's Quest series (even though I've always preferred LucasArts style), and I actually think that 'if I'm not being tortured, it's not King's Quest".
KQ5 has tortured me for 20 years now, and I've had a love-hate relationship with this game for most of my life.
I'm a Sierra fan, and I would use the word "tortured" because I'm capable of being snarky about things that I love. Plus, yes, I was tortured by KQ5 especially, and it was part of the experience.
I think right off the bat, a tricky element of KQ5 for me was that the first place I explored was the witch's forest. Cedric didn't follow, and I died. Then, the first building I entered was the Swarthy Hog. Cedric didn't follow, and I died. Because of that, I was scared for a long time to go anywhere Cedric wouldn't. What can I say, I was a cautious kid. :P
I definitely wouldn't have figured out that I needed to go into the desert without a hint guide. After all, KQ3 had a similar desert that you weren't supposed to enter past the outskirts. There was precedent!
The use of the word "tortured" here proves that it's a LucasArts fan negatively biased against the Sierra form of play. There is this one-sided rivalry, where LucasArts fans absolutely despise Sierra and I've never met an analogous, opposite Sierra fan that hates LucasArts. A true Sierra fan would probably say "challenged", "held accountable", "face consequences", or something to that effect.
Dude, I generally agree with you, but this is ridiculous. A lot of people love both Sierra and Lucasarts games, and I'm one of them. It does absolutely no good to stereotype "Sierra fans" or "Lucasarts fans" nor to make statements like "Lucasarts fans absolutely despise Sierra." You're doing yourself and your broader argument a disservice.
When I was a kid we had what in retrospect must have been a beta copy of KQII for some reason. On each screen the colors would flood fill in seperately before you could move, all of the text appeared at the bottom where the cursor goes, and most importantly, you couldn't save the game! I still remember nights when all of the kids in my family would be huddled around our old Tandy, watching my oldest sister pick her way through the poison brambles around Dracula's castle (since we always killed the snake instead of giving it the bridle to get the invincibility sugar cube), cheering her on as she picked her way through, pixel by pixel, knowing that any single misstep would force us all to completely restart the game. And then, half of the time, if we made it through that, it was almost a sure thing that Graham would die falling down the stairs at the end of the game.
THAT was torturous gameplay. KQV has nothing on that mess.
When I was a kid we had what in retrospect must have been a beta copy of KQII for some reason. On each screen the colors would flood fill in seperately before you could move, all of the text appeared at the bottom where the cursor goes, and most importantly, you couldn't save the game! I still remember nights when all of the kids in my family would be huddled around our old Tandy, watching my oldest sister pick her way through the poison brambles around Dracula's castle (since we always killed the snake instead of giving it the bridle to get the invincibility sugar cube), cheering her on as she picked her way through, pixel by pixel, knowing that any single misstep would force us all to completely restart the game. And then, half of the time, if we made it through that, it was almost a sure thing that Graham would die falling down the stairs at the end of the game.
THAT was torturous gameplay. KQV has nothing on that mess.
You must have really had a beta version, indeed! All of the narrative text appearing in the black space at the bottom of the screen was also what happened in the original IBM PCjr release of KQ1, waaaaay back in 1984. 27 years ago now!
The "modern" 16-color DOS version of KQ1 AGI, with white pop-up text boxes for narration, came out only in 1987; the first PC release, in 1984, was CGA 4-color and followed the mold of the PCjr version. Of course, by 1987, KQ2 had already been released, back in 1985. So it would seem KQ2 was the first Sierra game to use a separate, special pop-up window for narrative text, instead of cramming it down into the parser field.
One of the things that worries me is how episodic distribution is going to affect the open-endedness of the game. Most of the King's Quest games do have segments where the player is restricted to a locale, but most of them also features a main exploration area where the meat of the content and inventory items are found.
Things I want & don't want
+Narrator
+Based on mythology and fairytales
+Icon & Parser interface. Would like them merged together.
+Deaths, with a retry button.
+Exploration.
+Multiple solutions.
+Point system, to emphasize optimal solutions.
+Ingame fairytale book, for the uninitiated and to serve as an hintbook.
+Logical puzzles. Rumplestiltskin...bleh...
+Art style that resembles King's Quest V & VI.
+Music & Atmospheric effects.
-Episodic distribution, it might not work well with the open-ended exploration of King's Quest, unless exploration areas are segregated for each chapter.
-Seriousness. At least if it resembles Mask of Eternity.
-Dead ends. They are pure crud.
-No dedicated combat system, please. KQ8 leaves bitter memories.
+Icon & Parser interface. Would like them merged together.
The only time I've seen that was when I played the King's Quest I remake from AGDI at the part where you have guess Rumpelstilskin's name. That may work on a computer, but how would you get it to work with a platform like PS3, Wii or Xbox 360? Would it be like Animal Crossing where you are asked a question, like what's your name, and a screen would show up with a space where you could enter the answer, and a keyboard would be underneath that would allow you to select the letters one by one to fill in that space? With the iPad it might be easier because you would be able to tap the box, and then the onscreen keyboard would pop up, and then you could type in the answer to the question.
+Deaths, with a retry button.
How would you like it? Should it be like TSL where it's a small rectangular box with the message written inside and underneath there would be buttons that would say retry, restore, and quit? Or should it be like King's Quest VII where the screen is all black with the words "You Have Expired" written in big letters atthe top, a head shot of the character who died and says something like, "Drat it! I just should have been more decisive." in the middle, and the option of retrying, restoring or quitting at the very bottom?
Check out the Quest for Glory II remake, it has a combo-parsing system, specifically for the dialogue trees. Very good innovation that I hope Telltale might use someday.
One way I can see it working for a console would be to have a Parser Menu, with 3 submenus that correspond to Letters, Words, and Sentences that can be used in the game. Select one of them, and a part of your parser command is created, to varying degrees according to which menu you are using.
EX1 - Letters
[Just the alphabet here]
EX2 - Words
Rock
Snake
Punch
Look
Talk
Press
Kiss
Button
EX3 - Sentences
Press the ______ (Click on the sentence, then add letters or a sentence to complete...)
Seriously though, if they figured out 20 years ago that people (not you, I mean real people) didn't want text parsers, I don't think they will come back now.
Except if they are mind-reading parsers. I would dig that.
I like text parsers in the sense that they allow for a potentially wider array of actions we can take in these games. While I certainly appreciate the ease of use that an icon-based interface grants, I feel a bit more limited.
That is why I would suggest a combo-parser system, so that game developers can figure out how to advance the uses of parsing, and how to still keep the game user-friendly. Hence, why I thought a Letters-Words-Sentences system would be good for console users, since they could use it as a shortcut for creating sentences without requiring a keyboard.
By the way, I find it rather odd that your argument is dependent on considering me to not be a genuine person, instead of actually offering reasons for why people wouldn't want Parsers. The reasons should not be hard to come by.
Comments
I clicked Sierra-style. While it is no secret that Telltale is a direct descendant of the LucasArts model of making adventure games they can't think they can try to 'fix' the Sierra model of adventure games which so many people have loved and enjoyed.
King's Quest doesn't need to be as hard as the old Sierra games but Telltale can't abandon the game's roots. Like I said in another thread, if Telltale follow the LucasArts style of adventure games for KQ it would be tantamount to punching Sierra fans right in the family jewels!
*For the record, I'm a LucasArts style adventure game fanboy who doesn't understand the appeal of Sierra style adventure games.
Yes. And the point system served an important function in the old Sierra games; it let you know if you were on the right track. If you tried something, and you didn't get points for it, it was probably not the right thing to do, and so you knew you should go back and try something else. And I think that's a way more clever and interesting way of nudging players along than filling the entire top half of the screen with hint buttons and having the NPCs shout the puzzle solutions at you if you don't immediately solve them.
yes those were great. Some alternatives were easier but you would not get full points. But at least you could get past a more difficult puzzle.
Or, make it super death heavy but also have autosaves before every death, making them painless.
That's what I suspected.
Old Sierra games were made to be played with one hand on the arrow keys (or mouse) and the other hovering above the F5 key. It's a different mindset, but it's certainly not torture. (Running into deadends was more painful, but I think Sierra got better at eliminating those, or at least making it obvious that you missed something, in later games.)
KQ5 has tortured me for 20 years now, and I've had a love-hate relationship with this game for most of my life.
As a kid I was stuck at the beginning of the game because I'd never have thought that a game would need you to Save - Go in the desert - Die - Restore - Start Again a number of times just to find 3 interesting places in a really big desert.
Then when I tried it again as a teen, I got stuck due to the cat and mouse situation described earlier in the thread. It took me around 5 years to figure it out. With hindsight, yeah, it was not that hard, but the problem is that it happens at the beginning of the game, and by the time you are actually stuck, you don't even remember that incident.
Then, when I finally got it, it was like the best day of my life... but only for a few minutes. I got the rope, tied it to a tree, started climbing and died. I was so pissed off I wasn't able to play the game for another couple of years.
Now I'm stuck in the final castle, getting my ass kicked by a wizard and another cat. Maybe in five years I'll realize that you have to drink from the pound in the first screen in order to finish the game, or that you can't beat the evil wizard if you haven't talked to the cow outside of the town. Who knows? (well if you do, please don't spoil me, I've sworn that I would defeat this game without help)
So basically, yes, "torture" is the word I'd use.
I'm a Sierra fan, and I would use the word "tortured" because I'm capable of being snarky about things that I love. Plus, yes, I was tortured by KQ5 especially, and it was part of the experience.
I think right off the bat, a tricky element of KQ5 for me was that the first place I explored was the witch's forest. Cedric didn't follow, and I died. Then, the first building I entered was the Swarthy Hog. Cedric didn't follow, and I died. Because of that, I was scared for a long time to go anywhere Cedric wouldn't. What can I say, I was a cautious kid. :P
I definitely wouldn't have figured out that I needed to go into the desert without a hint guide. After all, KQ3 had a similar desert that you weren't supposed to enter past the outskirts. There was precedent!
Dude, I generally agree with you, but this is ridiculous. A lot of people love both Sierra and Lucasarts games, and I'm one of them. It does absolutely no good to stereotype "Sierra fans" or "Lucasarts fans" nor to make statements like "Lucasarts fans absolutely despise Sierra." You're doing yourself and your broader argument a disservice.
THAT was torturous gameplay. KQV has nothing on that mess.
The "modern" 16-color DOS version of KQ1 AGI, with white pop-up text boxes for narration, came out only in 1987; the first PC release, in 1984, was CGA 4-color and followed the mold of the PCjr version. Of course, by 1987, KQ2 had already been released, back in 1985. So it would seem KQ2 was the first Sierra game to use a separate, special pop-up window for narrative text, instead of cramming it down into the parser field.
Things I want & don't want
+Narrator
+Based on mythology and fairytales
+Icon & Parser interface. Would like them merged together.
+Deaths, with a retry button.
+Exploration.
+Multiple solutions.
+Point system, to emphasize optimal solutions.
+Ingame fairytale book, for the uninitiated and to serve as an hintbook.
+Logical puzzles. Rumplestiltskin...bleh...
+Art style that resembles King's Quest V & VI.
+Music & Atmospheric effects.
-Episodic distribution, it might not work well with the open-ended exploration of King's Quest, unless exploration areas are segregated for each chapter.
-Seriousness. At least if it resembles Mask of Eternity.
-Dead ends. They are pure crud.
-No dedicated combat system, please. KQ8 leaves bitter memories.
It really does need a narrator.
The only time I've seen that was when I played the King's Quest I remake from AGDI at the part where you have guess Rumpelstilskin's name. That may work on a computer, but how would you get it to work with a platform like PS3, Wii or Xbox 360? Would it be like Animal Crossing where you are asked a question, like what's your name, and a screen would show up with a space where you could enter the answer, and a keyboard would be underneath that would allow you to select the letters one by one to fill in that space? With the iPad it might be easier because you would be able to tap the box, and then the onscreen keyboard would pop up, and then you could type in the answer to the question.
How would you like it? Should it be like TSL where it's a small rectangular box with the message written inside and underneath there would be buttons that would say retry, restore, and quit? Or should it be like King's Quest VII where the screen is all black with the words "You Have Expired" written in big letters atthe top, a head shot of the character who died and says something like, "Drat it! I just should have been more decisive." in the middle, and the option of retrying, restoring or quitting at the very bottom?
One way I can see it working for a console would be to have a Parser Menu, with 3 submenus that correspond to Letters, Words, and Sentences that can be used in the game. Select one of them, and a part of your parser command is created, to varying degrees according to which menu you are using.
EX1 - Letters
[Just the alphabet here]
EX2 - Words
Rock
Snake
Punch
Look
Talk
Press
Kiss
Button
EX3 - Sentences
Press the ______ (Click on the sentence, then add letters or a sentence to complete...)
Look up the _____
Tie __ to tree
EX3A
Press the Button.
Look up mineshaft.
Tie rope to tree.
- Oh, be careful Graham!
Crack
Seriously though, if they figured out 20 years ago that people (not you, I mean real people) didn't want text parsers, I don't think they will come back now.
Except if they are mind-reading parsers. I would dig that.
That is why I would suggest a combo-parser system, so that game developers can figure out how to advance the uses of parsing, and how to still keep the game user-friendly. Hence, why I thought a Letters-Words-Sentences system would be good for console users, since they could use it as a shortcut for creating sentences without requiring a keyboard.
By the way, I find it rather odd that your argument is dependent on considering me to not be a genuine person, instead of actually offering reasons for why people wouldn't want Parsers. The reasons should not be hard to come by.