I think the myst killed AGs viewpoint is around because that is what developers thought they needed to compete with ... and then the next step they took was "3D" shooters.. Once those types of games took off and made tons of money... Nobody wanted to risk making adventure games anymore... when shooters where proved sellers and fighting games didn't require a plotted out story... Adventure games became too much work.....
I can't see how you can possibly think takes more work then, say, Halo. Sure, the story may be more complex, but I really can't see how designing a series of 2D drawn backgrounds, or an extremely limited 3D environment like we have in TT's current games can possibly be more work then building the kinds of environments you get in Halo or Red Dead Redemption or the Legend of Zelda. Not only do you have to build environments where the player doesn't feel like there's nowhere to go, but you also have to test every inch of it to make sure the player can't jump out of the world or something like that. Adventure games, meanwhile, traditionally very much limit where your character can go and the number of ways he or she can possibly get there. Seems like a lot less work to me.
I can't see how you can possibly think takes more work then, say, Halo. Sure, the story may be more complex, but I really can't see how designing a series of 2D drawn backgrounds, or an extremely limited 3D environment like we have in TT's current games can possibly be more work then building the kinds of environments you get in Halo or Red Dead Redemption or the Legend of Zelda. Not only do you have to build environments where the player doesn't feel like there's nowhere to go, but you also have to test every inch of it to make sure the player can't jump out of the world or something like that. Adventure games, meanwhile, traditionally very much limit where your character can go and the number of ways he or she can possibly get there. Seems like a lot less work to me.
I think you're misunderstanding what was stated here. The actual building of the game itself isn't all that different - characters still have set boundaries, you have to make sure they can't walk out of the world or through trees, stuff like that the same as any full 3D game. I believe the comparison here is more in terms of the story itself. Most of Halo's gameplay consists of shooting, while the "story" of the game plays out in cutscenes. In a true adventure game, the story itself is built directly into the gameplay via dialogue and puzzle solving to advance the plot. It's much more complex to weave the story into the playing of the game than it is to say, "Go shoot 600 things and then we'll just show you the next part of the plot."
I'm not sure you realize how a good shooter is balanced.
Good shooters have an excellent balance yes, I'm just referring specifically to Halo which I wasn't a big fan of at all and found to be extremely repetitve.
It's kind of funny; people are talking about how the games are almost "movies" now, and when you read a lot of early Sierra literature, they were always comparing the games to movies..... "....Cinema quality sound and animation....."....".... almost like an interactive Movie!"
It seems to me that in the past their goal WAS to make an interactive movie; they just didn't have the technology to do it! I mean, King's Quest 5 was their first foray into that world - high quality graphics, digital speech and music....and here we are, 20 years later, in a world that can easily produce an "interactive movie" and most of us prefer the limitations of the past as they provided for innovative GAME play!
Oh, and as for "fan-group" in fighting - I was a vocal critic of TSL when Ep. 1 came out, sure. But after my initial "blow-up" I had several chances to talk with Cez, and get a better idea of their approach - and though it wasn't to my personal taste, I got it - and I appreciated it. I realized their game doesn't affect the way I like King's Quest, or what I want to do with it - and suddenly, I could enjoy their game for what it was and what I liked out of it. I think it's a beautiful production, and it's a great game from a bunch of dedicated people. I can appreciate that in spades.
I have to say, even if TTG's KQ isn't as "interactive" as the old school games, I'm still excited to play it. And if it sucks, hard, you bet I'll be on the ole internet, telling EVERYONE JUST HOW HARD IT SUCKS. AND I WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE. So don't let it suck hard, TTG. I can't tell you exactly how to do that, so good luck!
Ya read the old Sierra InterAction mags they had many an article in which they said they wanted games to become the movies of the future, adding interactivity not found in movies, and would replace movies. One article I recommend is one by Bill Davis in 1993 or 1994. He was hired by Sierra as the company 'Creative Consultant' because of his work in the film industry. His job at Sierra was to help designers get closer to movie design. He may have been in large part why their was a push towards the use of FMV in later Sierra games.
I don't think you make puzzles by accident as a result of technological limitations.
I think sometimes you do, really. I'm saying that sometimes creativity is fueled by limitations. I do think, sometimes, that because we live in an era of such powerful computing where almost ANYTHING is possible, creativity actually suffers.
I don't see how they were limited, though. They could have made most things scripted events. Granted, memory limits the actual animations per disk, but they could remove a lot of space by taking out a ton of interactive objects, text boxes, death scenes, etc, and limiting the game to only those things that are very important(and making sure they're all in the same room, right next to each other, and often mentioned). And after the CD era? They made Phantasmagoria on that! They had full power by their CD games to make adventure games that lacked any sort of puzzles or gameplay.
I think that Sierra always had the option to create bad games too, and I don't think Telltale is in some sort of unique position where "games for toddlers" is some new concept that only came into existence with our super smart computers.
Really? I think the fun is on #1 or how would you describe the narrative in Tetris?
It's a stylistic and experimental arthouse film meant to convey a lesson about the futility of all human effort. No matter how well you do in life, eventually you'll be crushed by the weight of the work you push yourself to complete or you're stopped by your own death. This was a popular message in the earliest video games.
That or video games are meant to be games that are played on a video screen(television or a computer/arcade monitor), but that would just be silly.
It's a stylistic and experimental arthouse film meant to convey a lesson about the futility of all human effort. No matter how well you do in life, eventually you'll be crushed by the weight of the work you push yourself to complete or you're stopped by your own death. This was a popular message in the earliest video games.
That or video games are meant to be games that are played on a video screen(television or a computer/arcade monitor), but that would just be silly.
You convinced me that the idea of fun in games is silly. I am buying BTTF now.
Just seems like if there is a game with less involvement from the original character, people would think the creator hates it. I remember how there were rumors about the creator of Dragonball not liking Dragonball GT despite there isn't any source.
That's true, but he did hate Dragonball Evolution, but then again, who doesn't?
That's true, but he did hate Dragonball Evolution, but then again, who doesn't?
There is not a single negative statement by Akira Toriyama regarding Evolution. Hell, I don't think I've ever seen a quote from him that is negative about anything other than his own work. He's really laid-back when it comes to his creations.
There is not a single negative statement by Akira Toriyama regarding Evolution. Hell, I don't think I've ever seen a quote from him that is negative about anything other than his own work. He's really laid-back when it comes to his creations.
There is not a single negative statement by Akira Toriyama regarding Evolution. Hell, I don't think I've ever seen a quote from him that is negative about anything other than his own work. He's really laid-back when it comes to his creations.
here is the quote:
As the original creator, I had a feeling of "Huh?" upon seeing the screenplay and the character designs, but the director, all the actors, the staff, and the rest are nothing but "ultra" high-caliber people. Maybe the right way for me and all the fans to appreciate it is as a New Dragonball of a different dimension. Perhaps, this might become a great masterpiece of power! Hey, I look forward to it!!
Al Lowe did a tremendous amount on Freddy Pharkas, and, as with all his games, he was primarily responsible for it. He did the original design document (which isn't the one on his website; that's a much later iteration, close to the final version if not THE final version); subsequent versions of the design were worked out between the two of us, and he always had final say -- which is exactly how it should've been, given that he was by far more experienced than I was, and his name was going to be first and foremost on the box and in the marketing. I was to receive the benefit of an overseer on my first game, ensuring an expected level of quality, and his name on the box would guarantee that it would sell even if I didn't perform.
Most of the puzzles and plot were his, particularly in the first half of the game. He wrote a little of the text and a little of the music. Parts of the finished game, we designed together, some large parts were virtually all his and some smaller parts were virtually all mine. I conceived and wrote the ballads (based on the backstory that Al had written), 95% or more of the text, gags, dialogue and narration, fleshed out the characters and locations, designed and wrote the demo, wrote about 95% of the manual, did all the producer duties, and directed the game on a daily basis. Al oversaw everything, checking it all frequently to see that things met his standards and making fine-tuning changes all along the way.
There were many, many things I wanted to do with the game, and Al let me do almost all of them, even when he was uncertain of the direction I was going. I don't recall him "flexing his muscles" very often (I can only think of two broad areas where he regularly overruled me: I thought we REALLY didn't need puzzles involving both flatulence AND diarrhea in the same game, and I really don't like timed puzzles). But overall, Al was a flexible, generous, and thoughtful co-designer and guide, and I learned a great deal from him.
Many, many months later, when they decided to make a CD version, Al did everything involved in the conversion: he cast and directed the voice work and supervised the whole process (I was busy working on SQ6 and trying, on a daily basis, to get Scott to co-design it, but his mind and spirit were far elsewhere by then).
Al is as much Freddy's Dad as I am, perhaps more or less depending on where one feels the soul of a game comes from. He was in every way an absolutely formative and positive force, from start to finish.
Al Lowe did a tremendous amount on Freddy Pharkas, and, as with all his games, he was primarily responsible for it. He did the original design document (which isn't the one on his website; that's a much later iteration, close to the final version if not THE final version); subsequent versions of the design were worked out between the two of us, and he always had final say -- which is exactly how it should've been, given that he was by far more experienced than I was, and his name was going to be first and foremost on the box and in the marketing. I was to receive the benefit of an overseer on my first game, ensuring an expected level of quality, and his name on the box would guarantee that it would sell even if I didn't perform.
Most of the puzzles and plot were his, particularly in the first half of the game. He wrote a little of the text and a little of the music. Parts of the finished game, we designed together, some large parts were virtually all his and some smaller parts were virtually all mine. I conceived and wrote the ballads (based on the backstory that Al had written), 95% or more of the text, gags, dialogue and narration, fleshed out the characters and locations, designed and wrote the demo, wrote about 95% of the manual, did all the producer duties, and directed the game on a daily basis. Al oversaw everything, checking it all frequently to see that things met his standards and making fine-tuning changes all along the way.
There were many, many things I wanted to do with the game, and Al let me do almost all of them, even when he was uncertain of the direction I was going. I don't recall him "flexing his muscles" very often (I can only think of two broad areas where he regularly overruled me: I thought we REALLY didn't need puzzles involving both flatulence AND diarrhea in the same game, and I really don't like timed puzzles). But overall, Al was a flexible, generous, and thoughtful co-designer and guide, and I learned a great deal from him.
Many, many months later, when they decided to make a CD version, Al did everything involved in the conversion: he cast and directed the voice work and supervised the whole process (I was busy working on SQ6 and trying, on a daily basis, to get Scott to co-design it, but his mind and spirit were far elsewhere by then).
Al is as much Freddy's Dad as I am, perhaps more or less depending on where one feels the soul of a game comes from. He was in every way an absolutely formative and positive force, from start to finish.
I hope that makes things clearer.
Sometimes, we lurk.
Josh
Can you please write a book about the history of Sierra with all sorts of juicy info and sell it as an e-book or whatever?
Al Lowe did a tremendous amount on Freddy Pharkas, and, as with all his games, he was primarily responsible for it. He did the original design document (which isn't the one on his website; that's a much later iteration, close to the final version if not THE final version); subsequent versions of the design were worked out between the two of us, and he always had final say -- which is exactly how it should've been, given that he was by far more experienced than I was, and his name was going to be first and foremost on the box and in the marketing. I was to receive the benefit of an overseer on my first game, ensuring an expected level of quality, and his name on the box would guarantee that it would sell even if I didn't perform.
Most of the puzzles and plot were his, particularly in the first half of the game. He wrote a little of the text and a little of the music. Parts of the finished game, we designed together, some large parts were virtually all his and some smaller parts were virtually all mine. I conceived and wrote the ballads (based on the backstory that Al had written), 95% or more of the text, gags, dialogue and narration, fleshed out the characters and locations, designed and wrote the demo, wrote about 95% of the manual, did all the producer duties, and directed the game on a daily basis. Al oversaw everything, checking it all frequently to see that things met his standards and making fine-tuning changes all along the way.
There were many, many things I wanted to do with the game, and Al let me do almost all of them, even when he was uncertain of the direction I was going. I don't recall him "flexing his muscles" very often (I can only think of two broad areas where he regularly overruled me: I thought we REALLY didn't need puzzles involving both flatulence AND diarrhea in the same game, and I really don't like timed puzzles). But overall, Al was a flexible, generous, and thoughtful co-designer and guide, and I learned a great deal from him.
Many, many months later, when they decided to make a CD version, Al did everything involved in the conversion: he cast and directed the voice work and supervised the whole process (I was busy working on SQ6 and trying, on a daily basis, to get Scott to co-design it, but his mind and spirit were far elsewhere by then).
Al is as much Freddy's Dad as I am, perhaps more or less depending on where one feels the soul of a game comes from. He was in every way an absolutely formative and positive force, from start to finish.
Sierra did do that kind of thing for marketing purposes. Josh Mandel posted at adventuregamers that he saw a review state that Freddy Pharkas was "Al Lowe at his purest" or something like that. Meanwhile Al Lowe had done virtually nothing on the game, with Mandel being the real designer.
Thanks for the clarification Josh. I just knew that statements like the one above were absolutely not true.
I'm surprised so many people don't really have faith that this could work. Look what they have done with sam and max and monkey island. AMAZING games. It could be quite different... but so what? At least we are getting another Kings Quest.
And even if Roberta Williams isn't part of the team, again... so? She was part of the Mask of Eternity team and look how horrific that game is. I imagine the team behind the new Telltale Games are huge fans of the series and know the games well. They will do a good job (a better job than MOE at least) and if its different, so be it, it could breathe new life into the series
While I'll respectively disagree that KQ8 is 'horrific'.
Infact, Roberta is behind why MOE is so different. If she didn't have any problems with outside forces (trying to censor the game and remove combat and violence, etc), it would have had even more combat and boss fights. It would have been 3-d and had combat regardless.
Sam & Max and Monkey Island were very different kinds of adventure games. They only did well because they both had people who had worked on the originals working on these new titles. Also, neither of them are Sierra adventures. Very different breeds.
Huh ... That explains it!
But still, I guess from KQ fans' point of view It's a shame she doesn't want to get out of retirment to work with Telltale briefly like she does with her son's company ...
Huh ... That explains it!
But still, I guess from KQ fans' point of view It's a shame she doesn't want to get out of retirment to work with Telltale briefly like she does with her son's company ...
It's a bit different though. KQ is probably HER baby to her. I don't think Roberta would want to work on a KQ game unless she had total control over it or was the primary designer or at least had final authority over the game's content. Even on the KQ games that she was least involved in, she still approved the content, she still was the designer, the game was still basically HER's.
TellTale and probably very few other companies would give her that much power, so for her there's no reason to get really involved...For her it'd probably be a replay of the KQ8 situation, having to work on her baby with other people telling her how to work on it, which apparently stressed her out so much that she started crying one day in her bed (according to a book which talks about KQ8's development). I think KQ8's development and watching the death of Sierra traumatized her and left her not wanting to be in any situation like it again.
A game like her son's is different. It's a new thing that's not her baby, she probably has little personal emotional investment and memories attached to it, it's quite a different ballgame. It doesn't come with the baggage that working on a King's Quest game would for her.
That's a good point. All we know is that Telltale talked to her and she declined. We don't really know the reasons why.
I don't think either Roberta or Ken did one ounce of design on their son's game. They're just advertising it for the PR. Their names do go a long way in certain niches.
That's a good point. All we know is that Telltale talked to her and she declined. We don't really know the reasons why.
I don't think either Roberta or Ken did one ounce of design on their sons game. They're just advertising it for the PR. Their names do go a long way in certain niches.
Given all they contributed to the industry, their names should go a lot farther. Sierra is generally forgotten or unknown by the average modern gamer and that's a shame because they innovated quite a lot beyond the adventure genre and were in their day one of the biggest power players in the entire industry. I mean a late 90s piece on Sierra named only Microsoft and EA as Sierra's main competitors. That's how important they were.
I read that in 1996, Sierra's games altogether made up a majority of PC game sales, not just in the adventure genre. They were huge and you'd think even if the modern GAMER doesn't know of them, that at least some modern designers/creators outside of the adventure community would be inspired by their legacy.
I mean id Software considered Sierra a big influence; The founders of id grew up playing tons of Sierra games...Where's the other modern industry recognition?
Comments
I completely disagree. At least for me the Myst games were what kept alive the adventure genre for many years after Sierra and LA stopped making them.
I can't see how you can possibly think takes more work then, say, Halo. Sure, the story may be more complex, but I really can't see how designing a series of 2D drawn backgrounds, or an extremely limited 3D environment like we have in TT's current games can possibly be more work then building the kinds of environments you get in Halo or Red Dead Redemption or the Legend of Zelda. Not only do you have to build environments where the player doesn't feel like there's nowhere to go, but you also have to test every inch of it to make sure the player can't jump out of the world or something like that. Adventure games, meanwhile, traditionally very much limit where your character can go and the number of ways he or she can possibly get there. Seems like a lot less work to me.
I think you're misunderstanding what was stated here. The actual building of the game itself isn't all that different - characters still have set boundaries, you have to make sure they can't walk out of the world or through trees, stuff like that the same as any full 3D game. I believe the comparison here is more in terms of the story itself. Most of Halo's gameplay consists of shooting, while the "story" of the game plays out in cutscenes. In a true adventure game, the story itself is built directly into the gameplay via dialogue and puzzle solving to advance the plot. It's much more complex to weave the story into the playing of the game than it is to say, "Go shoot 600 things and then we'll just show you the next part of the plot."
Good shooters have an excellent balance yes, I'm just referring specifically to Halo which I wasn't a big fan of at all and found to be extremely repetitve.
It seems to me that in the past their goal WAS to make an interactive movie; they just didn't have the technology to do it! I mean, King's Quest 5 was their first foray into that world - high quality graphics, digital speech and music....and here we are, 20 years later, in a world that can easily produce an "interactive movie" and most of us prefer the limitations of the past as they provided for innovative GAME play!
Oh, and as for "fan-group" in fighting - I was a vocal critic of TSL when Ep. 1 came out, sure. But after my initial "blow-up" I had several chances to talk with Cez, and get a better idea of their approach - and though it wasn't to my personal taste, I got it - and I appreciated it. I realized their game doesn't affect the way I like King's Quest, or what I want to do with it - and suddenly, I could enjoy their game for what it was and what I liked out of it. I think it's a beautiful production, and it's a great game from a bunch of dedicated people. I can appreciate that in spades.
I have to say, even if TTG's KQ isn't as "interactive" as the old school games, I'm still excited to play it. And if it sucks, hard, you bet I'll be on the ole internet, telling EVERYONE JUST HOW HARD IT SUCKS. AND I WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE. So don't let it suck hard, TTG. I can't tell you exactly how to do that, so good luck!
Bt
I think sometimes you do, really. I'm saying that sometimes creativity is fueled by limitations. I do think, sometimes, that because we live in an era of such powerful computing where almost ANYTHING is possible, creativity actually suffers.
Bt
Then you must be one wild, and-uh-crazy guy!!!!
Bt
I think that Sierra always had the option to create bad games too, and I don't think Telltale is in some sort of unique position where "games for toddlers" is some new concept that only came into existence with our super smart computers.
Bt
Really? I think the fun is on #1 or how would you describe the narrative in Tetris?
That or video games are meant to be games that are played on a video screen(television or a computer/arcade monitor), but that would just be silly.
You convinced me that the idea of fun in games is silly. I am buying BTTF now.
Hipster.
That's true, but he did hate Dragonball Evolution, but then again, who doesn't?
NVM misread your comment
here is the quote:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-08/akira-toriyama-comments-on-live-action-dragonball-film
Most of the puzzles and plot were his, particularly in the first half of the game. He wrote a little of the text and a little of the music. Parts of the finished game, we designed together, some large parts were virtually all his and some smaller parts were virtually all mine. I conceived and wrote the ballads (based on the backstory that Al had written), 95% or more of the text, gags, dialogue and narration, fleshed out the characters and locations, designed and wrote the demo, wrote about 95% of the manual, did all the producer duties, and directed the game on a daily basis. Al oversaw everything, checking it all frequently to see that things met his standards and making fine-tuning changes all along the way.
There were many, many things I wanted to do with the game, and Al let me do almost all of them, even when he was uncertain of the direction I was going. I don't recall him "flexing his muscles" very often (I can only think of two broad areas where he regularly overruled me: I thought we REALLY didn't need puzzles involving both flatulence AND diarrhea in the same game, and I really don't like timed puzzles). But overall, Al was a flexible, generous, and thoughtful co-designer and guide, and I learned a great deal from him.
Many, many months later, when they decided to make a CD version, Al did everything involved in the conversion: he cast and directed the voice work and supervised the whole process (I was busy working on SQ6 and trying, on a daily basis, to get Scott to co-design it, but his mind and spirit were far elsewhere by then).
Al is as much Freddy's Dad as I am, perhaps more or less depending on where one feels the soul of a game comes from. He was in every way an absolutely formative and positive force, from start to finish.
I hope that makes things clearer.
Sometimes, we lurk.
Josh
Can you please write a book about the history of Sierra with all sorts of juicy info and sell it as an e-book or whatever?
Thanks for the clarification.
Welcome to the madness, Josh Mandel. Now can I talk to you about my taxes?
Thanks for the clarification Josh. I just knew that statements like the one above were absolutely not true.
And even if Roberta Williams isn't part of the team, again... so? She was part of the Mask of Eternity team and look how horrific that game is. I imagine the team behind the new Telltale Games are huge fans of the series and know the games well. They will do a good job (a better job than MOE at least) and if its different, so be it, it could breathe new life into the series
Infact, Roberta is behind why MOE is so different. If she didn't have any problems with outside forces (trying to censor the game and remove combat and violence, etc), it would have had even more combat and boss fights. It would have been 3-d and had combat regardless.
And Mask of Eternity is not "horrific".
http://www.gamezebo.com/news/2011/08/14/legendary-kings-quest-designer-roberta-williams-working-facebooks-odd-manor
What that article leaves out is the game is from her son's new company. I think she's just helping to give them a little boost with her name.
But still, I guess from KQ fans' point of view It's a shame she doesn't want to get out of retirment to work with Telltale briefly like she does with her son's company ...
It's a bit different though. KQ is probably HER baby to her. I don't think Roberta would want to work on a KQ game unless she had total control over it or was the primary designer or at least had final authority over the game's content. Even on the KQ games that she was least involved in, she still approved the content, she still was the designer, the game was still basically HER's.
TellTale and probably very few other companies would give her that much power, so for her there's no reason to get really involved...For her it'd probably be a replay of the KQ8 situation, having to work on her baby with other people telling her how to work on it, which apparently stressed her out so much that she started crying one day in her bed (according to a book which talks about KQ8's development). I think KQ8's development and watching the death of Sierra traumatized her and left her not wanting to be in any situation like it again.
A game like her son's is different. It's a new thing that's not her baby, she probably has little personal emotional investment and memories attached to it, it's quite a different ballgame. It doesn't come with the baggage that working on a King's Quest game would for her.
I don't think either Roberta or Ken did one ounce of design on their son's game. They're just advertising it for the PR. Their names do go a long way in certain niches.
Given all they contributed to the industry, their names should go a lot farther. Sierra is generally forgotten or unknown by the average modern gamer and that's a shame because they innovated quite a lot beyond the adventure genre and were in their day one of the biggest power players in the entire industry. I mean a late 90s piece on Sierra named only Microsoft and EA as Sierra's main competitors. That's how important they were.
I read that in 1996, Sierra's games altogether made up a majority of PC game sales, not just in the adventure genre. They were huge and you'd think even if the modern GAMER doesn't know of them, that at least some modern designers/creators outside of the adventure community would be inspired by their legacy.
I mean id Software considered Sierra a big influence; The founders of id grew up playing tons of Sierra games...Where's the other modern industry recognition?