I would think if he can get trash to generate that much power he could it to run the car. He was able to get it to fly. And besides, he had all the time he needed, he had a time machine.
Doc didn't make the car able to fly. That's why there was a commercial for hover conversions. Mr. Fusion is a home energy reactor. It says so right under the name.
As a home energy reactor, the Mr. Fusion is most likely used to, as the name indicates, power homes. Also a great way to keep people recycling since it's run on garbage.
And as someone said, replacing the normal internal combustion engine with an electric engine would make NO sense. Remember. The DeLorean is a rear-engine vehicle. All of Doc's customizations are covering the engine. He'd have to rip out pretty much the entire back end of the time machine. Not to mention that the Mr. Fusion is stated to power the time circuits and the flux capacitor. Imagine if you will if Mr. Fusion powered the entire car. Now consider that Doc refuels Mr. Fusion after nearly every time jump(we don't know if this is always the case, but it seems to be). If Mr. Fusion has no power left after a time jump and the DeLorean is, say, in hover mode? The car would drop from the sky like a ton of bricks. So in the long run, keeping the engine running on gasoline was the safer choice. He just never anticipated Marty ripping a hole in the fuel line.
Doc didn't make the car able to fly. That's why there was a commercial for hover conversions. Mr. Fusion is a home energy reactor. It says so right under the name.
Ya, I figured that, I just meant he got it done. I'm guessing there had to be a converter to get cars off gas if they could make them fly or make Mr. Fushion.
As a home energy reactor, the Mr. Fusion is most likely used to, as the name indicates, power homes. Also a great way to keep people recycling since it's run on garbage.
And as someone said, replacing the normal internal combustion engine with an electric engine would make NO sense. Remember. The DeLorean is a rear-engine vehicle. All of Doc's customizations are covering the engine. He'd have to rip out pretty much the entire back end of the time machine. Not to mention that the Mr. Fusion is stated to power the time circuits and the flux capacitor. Imagine if you will if Mr. Fusion powered the entire car. Now consider that Doc refuels Mr. Fusion after nearly every time jump(we don't know if this is always the case, but it seems to be). If Mr. Fusion has no power left after a time jump and the DeLorean is, say, in hover mode? The car would drop from the sky like a ton of bricks. So in the long run, keeping the engine running on gasoline was the safer choice. He just never anticipated Marty ripping a hole in the fuel line.
I never saw the label, that answers that.
Why wouldn't Doc be able to open the engine hood and work on it? Are you saying he can't open the rear hood? Forgive me, I'm not too familiar with the design and how to go about about converting the car. (Now that I think about it, wasn't there a Texaco in 2015? Were they still running on gas?)
As for your third point, I guess it would depend how much power is left after each jump. You could say it would be same with gas though because people could get on the freeway with little gas and get into trouble. I'd assume there'd be a safety mechanism though. I didn't remember Doc saying Mr. Fushion powered the flux capacitor, just the circuits. Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes, there was a Texaco in 2015. And at one point, a robotic voice says "Checking oil", so I'd assume cars in BTTF's 2015 are still reliant on gasoline.
There is no "hood" on the time machine any more. The time machine's "garage"-built components are covering it.
Are you sure about that? I thought the hood was still there on fan-made reproductions of it. Speaking of which, apparently it's a huge pain in the ass to get under the hood on fan reproductions. Since those are just regular cars covered in useless props, imagine how difficult it would be to get in there if it was covered in functioning components.
Are you sure about that? I thought the hood was still there on fan-made reproductions of it. Speaking of which, apparently it's a huge pain in the ass to get under the hood on fan reproductions. Since those are just regular cars covered in useless props, imagine how difficult it would be to get in there if it was covered in functioning components.
I wonder how Doc expected to perform routine maintenance.
I wonder how Doc expected to perform routine maintenance.
I don't know. I could be wrong. But even if, like the reproductions, you are able to get to the engine compartment, it would still be too much of a pain to remove the engine out from under all of that junk.
Doc didn't make the car able to fly. That's why there was a commercial for hover conversions. Mr. Fusion is a home energy reactor. It says so right under the name.
As a home energy reactor, the Mr. Fusion is most likely used to, as the name indicates, power homes. Also a great way to keep people recycling since it's run on garbage.
And as someone said, replacing the normal internal combustion engine with an electric engine would make NO sense. Remember. The DeLorean is a rear-engine vehicle. All of Doc's customizations are covering the engine. He'd have to rip out pretty much the entire back end of the time machine. Not to mention that the Mr. Fusion is stated to power the time circuits and the flux capacitor. Imagine if you will if Mr. Fusion powered the entire car. Now consider that Doc refuels Mr. Fusion after nearly every time jump(we don't know if this is always the case, but it seems to be). If Mr. Fusion has no power left after a time jump and the DeLorean is, say, in hover mode? The car would drop from the sky like a ton of bricks. So in the long run, keeping the engine running on gasoline was the safer choice. He just never anticipated Marty ripping a hole in the fuel line.
Marty did not rip a hole in the fuel line! Why would he do that? The Indians attacked him because he looked like a cowboy, thats what happened in the movie!!!
Marty did not rip a hole in the fuel line! Why would he do that? The Indians attacked him because he looked like a cowboy, thats what happened in the movie!!!
Nobody said Marty went and ripped the fuel line open maliciously or anything. The fuel line was damaged while the DeLorean was in Marty's care.
GuruGuru, you messed up. What you should have said was that the fuel line was damaged while the DeLorean was in Marty's "care". You can't forget the sarcasm quotes. This is the same kid who, on numerous occasions, has left a freaking DeLorean(!) sitting on the streets of Hill Valley with the doors unlocked and, presumably, the keys still inside. If that bum in BTTF1 hadn't been so drunk, he would've taken the DeLorean to the nearest car lot and sold it.
I would think if he can get trash to generate that much power he could it to run the car. He was able to get it to fly. And besides, he had all the time he needed, he had a time machine.
Doc's trip to 1885 was completely unprepared since the DeLorean was hit by lightning, the DeLorean wasn't equipped with 1885 in mind. In 1885, Doc and Marty had to get out of there quick because Doc would die in a week, making repairs or modifications impossible since it would take Doc longer than a week to do them with the equipment and materials he had available in that time period.
Doc's trip to 1885 was completely unprepared since the DeLorean was hit by lightning, the DeLorean wasn't equipped with 1885 in mind. In 1885, Doc and Marty had to get out of there quick because Doc would die in a week, making repairs or modifications impossible since it would take Doc longer than a week to do them with the equipment and materials he had available in that time period.
Well not quite, he did have money from the 1800's so he was prepared for it. Which begs the question, how did he get all that money in his briefcase? Did he already do other time travelling prior to bringing Marty to 2015? We know he hasnt visited the old west yet as he says so but it seems it was on his agenda before deciding to destroy the time machine.
I'd imagine if not for buford shooting him, he eventually would have been able to repair the time circuits since he builds the trail from scratch.
The digital speedometer has a label on it that says "SET FOR 88 MPH", so I think Old Biff could figure that out.
As for Biff coming back to 2015A, he DID. We didn't see anything change for Marty and Doc because, presumably, Hilldale is either unaffected, or because Biff is apparently dead in 2015A, the city has gotten back to normal. Marty and Doc didn't stay at the McFly house, so they didn't see that the family probably faded away as they probably wouldn't be living there.
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Exactly, When Old Biff returns the Delorean back to Marty and Doc he does it because if he failed to it would result in a paradox. He would have also failed in his plan to become rich. Anyway, Biff starts to fade away in 2015 because he is possibly deceased in 2015..which is now altered because of his actions..this time has changed around Marty and Doc, but they leave immediately after so we do not see all of the changes.
Which begs the question, how did he get all that money in his briefcase?
The Doc is crazy, he screws up timelines, steals plutonium, steals trains, makes deals with terrorists, burns down homes... so he probably just took the delorean to the old west and straight up robbed a bank.
The Doc is crazy, he screws up timelines, steals plutonium, steals trains, makes deals with terrorists, burns down homes... so he probably just took the delorean to the old west and straight up robbed a bank.
But in part II, he specifically says he'll never get to visit his favourite historical year the old west so that implies that his first trip to the old west was after the lightning strike.
He probably just took the delorean to the old west and straight up robbed a bank.
I wouldn't put it past him.
"Is this a holdup?"
"It's a science experiment!"
But I agree with Michael J Fox is Canadian, he clearly states that he regrets not visiting the old west which implies that he hasn't travelled there yet.
Exactly, When Old Biff returns the Delorean back to Marty and Doc he does it because if he failed to it would result in a paradox. He would have also failed in his plan to become rich. Anyway, Biff starts to fade away in 2015 because he is possibly deceased in 2015..which is now altered because of his actions..this time has changed around Marty and Doc, but they leave immediately after so we do not see all of the changes.
If he did die before the events in 2015, wouldn't there be a time paradox? That means old Biff would not be around for the events that got him the almanac. Maybe the universe exploded as Doc and Marty left 2015? :eek:
If he did die before the events in 2015, wouldn't there be a time paradox? That means old Biff would not be around for the events that got him the almanac. Maybe the universe exploded as Doc and Marty left 2015? :eek:
That's the kind of logic that BttF avoids. Because technically once Marty realized what would happen if he continued to lose his temper when someone called him a chicken, his own timeline changed, therefore Doc wouldn't have seen anything wrong, therefore he wouldn't have needed to go back to get Marty, hence Marty wouldn't have bought the almanac, hence 2015A wouldn't have occurred, hence Doc wouldn't have traveled back to 1885, then Marty wouldn't have followed from 1955, and then Marty wouldn't have come to terms with the "chicken button", so on and so forth. Circular time travel logic doesn't apply in the BttF universe.
That's the kind of logic that BttF avoids. Because technically once Marty realized what would happen if he continued to lose his temper when someone called him a chicken, his own timeline changed, therefore Doc wouldn't have seen anything wrong, therefore he wouldn't have needed to go back to get Marty, hence Marty wouldn't have bought the almanac, hence 2015A wouldn't have occurred, hence Doc wouldn't have traveled back to 1885, then Marty wouldn't have followed from 1955, and then Marty wouldn't have come to terms with the "chicken button", so on and so forth. Circular time travel logic doesn't apply in the BttF universe.
Ya, you have a point. I think we dissect this too much sometimes.
That's the kind of logic that BttF avoids. Because technically once Marty realized what would happen if he continued to lose his temper when someone called him a chicken, his own timeline changed, therefore Doc wouldn't have seen anything wrong, therefore he wouldn't have needed to go back to get Marty, hence Marty wouldn't have bought the almanac, hence 2015A wouldn't have occurred, hence Doc wouldn't have traveled back to 1885, then Marty wouldn't have followed from 1955, and then Marty wouldn't have come to terms with the "chicken button", so on and so forth. Circular time travel logic doesn't apply in the BttF universe.
Back to the Future: The Game shows that Doc is concerned about circular time travel paradoxes so he likely told Marty prior to 2015 to make sure that the events that led to his son getting involved with Griff still played out.
So, Doc still would have went back to 1985 to pick up Marty, Marty still would have picked up the almanac, he still would have gone to 1955, the DeLorean still would have been struck by lightning and sent to 1885. And because Doc is worried about circular time travel paradoxes, he would have put up his tombstone even though he didn't die so Marty would still come back to 1885 (which would explain why the picture still remained at the end of Back to the Future Part III). So the events of 1885 where Buford calls him yellow still would have happened, and he likely would have still avoided the Rolls Royce after those events since that is where he realized that it wasn't worth risking his life over someone calling him chicken.
Back to the Future: The Game shows that Doc is concerned about circular time travel paradoxes so he likely told Marty prior to 2015 to make sure that the events that led to his son getting involved with Griff still played out.
So, Doc still would have went back to 1985 to pick up Marty, Marty still would have picked up the almanac, he still would have gone to 1955, the DeLorean still would have been struck by lightning and sent to 1885. And because Doc is worried about circular time travel paradoxes, he would have put up his tombstone even though he didn't die so Marty would still come back to 1885 (which would explain why the picture still remained at the end of Back to the Future Part III). So the events of 1885 where Buford calls him yellow still would have happened, and he likely would have still avoided the Rolls Royce after those events since that is where he realized that it wasn't worth risking his life over someone calling him chicken.
I like the way you think fourth dimensionally but there are some flaws to it; if Doc planted his tombstomb, it wouldn't have disappeared in part III and certainly couldn't have changed names from Emmett Brown to Clint Eastwood.
I'm sure Doc was sweating bullets with the impending duel between Marty and Buford; if either character died, it would have caused a paradox as Marty needs to live to 2015 and Buford needs to live long enough to create Biffs ancestor (thought his may have happened by 1885. There are still 2 ancestors/descendants between Buford and Biff. Biff is born in 1937)
I often wonder if Marty and Doc ever discussed how marty needs to live his future. I guess Marty just needs to make sure he tries to forget what he knows about the future. Mainly he cant interfere with his sons interactions with Griff knowing Griff will attempt to get Marty Jr. to rob a courthouse and also where ne needs to avoid on october 21st 2015. The big question is whether Jennifer realizes her younger self is coming on that day as they do run into each other.
But other than that, Doc doesn't need to worry about 1985 Marty's time travels as they have already happened.
there are some flaws to it; if Doc planted his tombstomb, it wouldn't have disappeared in part III and certainly couldn't have changed names from Emmett Brown to Clint Eastwood.
The tombstone in the original timeline was definitely authentic. I meant that Doc planted the tombstone after the events of Back to the Future Part III so that Marty would still have a reason to come to 1885 in the new timeline (and since time was still being written since the tombstone would still go up, the picture never disappeared at the end of Back to the Future Part III even though it just showed grass). The townspeople knew Doc was eccentric, so him paying for and placing a tombstone with a date of death that was not his real death date probably wouldn't have been seen as out of character to them. Doc having a lot of money probably helped with letting him do strange things like that too.
The big question is whether Jennifer realizes her younger self is coming on that day as they do run into each other.
The Jennifer in the new timeline definitely would realize her younger self was coming, but I'm sure by that time Doc would have talked to her too. So, even though she didn't faint, she'd know to pretend to have done so, so that the younger Doc in the new timeline would just dismiss the two Jennifers fainting as he did in the original timeline.
My feelings on this is that if Marty went to the future with Doc, any traces of them in the future would have been that they disappeared in 1985. I don't believe that time predicts what will happen such as Marty eventually returning to 1985 and continuing his life from there. Time would not intentionally create it's own possible paradoxes in this fashion. Unfortunately, this makes for a boring movie and therefore also probably not felt by most fans of the movies.
As for the rest, I feel that if events did happen like in the movie, Biff would not have been able to return to the 2015 that Doc and Marty were in, so once he left with the intention to change time so drastically, they would have been stranded there. Again, boring movie. 2015A may have looked exactly like the original 2015, but since Biff drastically changed Hill Valley, he would have arrived in a time where Doc and Marty would not have had reasons to even be there. Such as what Doc led onto in 1985A about the future being alternate as well.
It's almost like Doc and Marty didn't exist in 1985A, even though everybody acknowledged Marty and Doc still had his laboratory. I guess they just cancelled out their currently existing selves. Since their currently existing selves would also not have travelled to the future at that point, I rather think that their 1985A selves would still exist in tandem and they would have to keep out of their ways, since they come from the original 1985.
I'm trying to remember in Sliders, sometimes the main characters were there in different dimensions which is essentially what happens in BTTF, but other times they were not. I would say they should be there unless they returned to the exact same dimension, but then if the dimension was not changed drastically, they could just replace themselves because they are so similar, and events would have played out the same. This is a tough question.
The reason why Marty and Doc didn't fade from existence in 2015 when it transformed into 2015-A was because they were time travelers who did not belong to 2015 anyway. When Old Biff went back to 1955, everything and everyone in 2015 was transformed into their 2015-A counterparts. Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien did NOT however belong to 2015, and so were not transformed. 2015 Marty and Jennifer, and their family, however WOULD have been transformed into their 2015-A counterparts.
Once they returned to 1985-A, they were briefly able to co-exist alongside their 1985-A counterparts because they had 'escaped' the ripple effect by virtue of being outside their own time when it hit. However, I feel that unless they fixed things, they would eventually have been erased.
As far as the future goes, I believe that when 2015 comes around in the final 'Eastwood' timeline, no 1985 Marty, Doc or Jennifer would show up. Look at it this way. The drag race between Marty and Needles on October 27th 1985 serves as the 'junction point'. In the original timeline which proceeded from this point, Marty broke his hand in the race and ended up becoming the loser Marty we see in 2015. This is the future Doc saw on his original trip to 2015, and which Marty and Jennifer see in BTTF2. However, Marty chooses NOT to race Needles, and so the timelines skews on a tangent, resulting in a (hopefully) happier future. Marty, Doc and Jennifer traveled to 2015 BEFORE the timeline skewed onto the tangent and therefore they will ALWAYS witness the 'bad' future, and will always remember that future. However, they grow up to live in the 'good' future of the new timeline...where their younger selves will not show up.
The reason why Marty and Doc didn't fade from existence in 2015 when it transformed into 2015-A was because they were time travelers who did not belong to 2015 anyway. When Old Biff went back to 1955, everything and everyone in 2015 was transformed into their 2015-A counterparts. Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien did NOT however belong to 2015, and so were not transformed. 2015 Marty and Jennifer, and their family, however WOULD have been transformed into their 2015-A counterparts.
Once they returned to 1985-A, they were briefly able to co-exist alongside their 1985-A counterparts because they had 'escaped' the ripple effect by virtue of being outside their own time when it hit. However, I feel that unless they fixed things, they would eventually have been erased.
As far as the future goes, I believe that when 2015 comes around in the final 'Eastwood' timeline, no 1985 Marty, Doc or Jennifer would show up. Look at it this way. The drag race between Marty and Needles on October 27th 1985 serves as the 'junction point'. In the original timeline which proceeded from this point, Marty broke his hand in the race and ended up becoming the loser Marty we see in 2015. This is the future Doc saw on his original trip to 2015, and which Marty and Jennifer see in BTTF2. However, Marty chooses NOT to race Needles, and so the timelines skews on a tangent, resulting in a (hopefully) happier future. Marty, Doc and Jennifer traveled to 2015 BEFORE the timeline skewed onto the tangent and therefore they will ALWAYS witness the 'bad' future, and will always remember that future. However, they grow up to live in the 'good' future of the new timeline...where their younger selves will not show up.
The future usually represents the most likely scenario. At no point is there a question of Marty and Jennifer returning to 1985. Doc always intends it and even Biff likely realizes he has to return the time machine to them in order to get rich.
It had been established that time travelers are immune to the timeline. It's the same logic that 1985 doc in 1885 is not the same one who helps Marty a second time in 1955 (he's immune to the further changes to the timeline once his delorean gets struck by lightning).
You could argue either way what happens on October 21st 2015 in the eastwood timeline; like you said the timeline is different but it's quite possible the events of Marty Jr. and Biff still happen in the eastwood timeline. People have posed the question "why doesnt Doc help Marty Sr. from getting fired" but likely don't realize that in the original 2015 (which doc sees offscreen) that event may not happen since Marty Jr. goes to jail so Sr. has bigger problems that night than getting rich. I kind of think Doc and Marty still do show up in 2015 in the eastwood timeline; that event does need to happen to set the wheels in motion for that timeline to exist (Biff needs to steal the time machine forcing them to go to 1955 which gets doc sent to 1885).
The future usually represents the most likely scenario. At no point is there a question of Marty and Jennifer returning to 1985. Doc always intends it and even Biff likely realizes he has to return the time machine to them in order to get rich.
It had been established that time travelers are immune to the timeline. It's the same logic that 1985 doc in 1885 is not the same one who helps Marty a second time in 1955 (he's immune to the further changes to the timeline once his delorean gets struck by lightning).
You could argue either way what happens on October 21st 2015 in the eastwood timeline; like you said the timeline is different but it's quite possible the events of Marty Jr. and Biff still happen in the eastwood timeline. People have posed the question "why doesnt Doc help Marty Sr. from getting fired" but likely don't realize that in the original 2015 (which doc sees offscreen) that event may not happen since Marty Jr. goes to jail so Sr. has bigger problems that night than getting rich. I kind of think Doc and Marty still do show up in 2015 in the eastwood timeline; that event does need to happen to set the wheels in motion for that timeline to exist (Biff needs to steal the time machine forcing them to go to 1955 which gets doc sent to 1885).
I don't know. If the time travelers show up in Eastwood 2015 it could cause a major paradox.
Alternatively, it MIGHT just work, provided you believe that even in the 'happier' future for the McFly's, Marty Jr. is still a wimp getting hassled around by Griff and still participates in the robbery. Thus, although Marty's life is great, Doc wants to help Marty Jr., so he returns to 1985 to bring Marty and Jennifer to the future. Marty could still stand in for Marty Jr. and the hoverboard chase causing Griff's arrest could still happen. Marty would still pick up the Almanac. Old Biff would still notice the Delorean. In fact, this time, he would remember having seen it TWICE before (in 1955, AND in 1985). When he hears the explanation about the time machine, he realises that the old man who gave him the Almanac when he was a teen was HIMSELF.
Now, things get a bit difficult. If Marty is very successful then he likely wouldn't be living in Hilldale. In fact, if he's a really 'rich rock star' or something like that he would live in a Mansion surrounded by security guards...and it would be impossible for younger Jennifer to be received into the house as her older self. The one way around this would be that older Marty and Jennifer KNOW that their younger selves are out there and so stay away from the house, and instruct their guards to do so as well (?). Or maybe they DO live in Hilldale, except that Marty's success has made it a great neighbourhood (a MUCH easier possibility to work with)...and older Marty and Jennifer stay away from home intentionally. Younger Jennifer is brought into the house by the cops. Marty roams about Hilldale while Doc and Einstien go to fetch Jennifer. Jennifer might here about her's and Marty's happy future from Lorraine, if she visits the house in this timeline as well. Marty may show up on cue (and possibly plays 'Power of Love' in his den perfectly! And orders Needles around on the phone). Old Biff steals the Almanac and Delorean and goes back in time. I think the older Jennifer would deliberately look at her younger self to cause her to faint, so that Doc and Marty would pick her up. Old Biff would return, and be shocked to discover that everything is the same and nothing has changed. OR...what is more likely is that Marty, Doc and Jennifer will fade from Eastwood 2015 (because this is the moment, where 'originally', 2015 A came into existence) and Old Biff will fade BACK into existence near the trash cans a few minutes later...
But honestly, I'd prefer to believe the future is COMPLETELY different...that Marty Jr. doesn't have any trouble with Griff, and that Old Biff never gets a chance to steal the Delorean again.
Well the simple answer is we dont know how the future turns out. It seems most of the McFly's misery comes from Marty's 'chicken' problem, that doesn't mean he has other character flaws. Here's the dillema we have now, how does the timeline currently look?
1885; likely occurs the same way we see in part III
1931: we see this in the game
1955: well the time travels likely still have to happen but possibly modified due to doc having already met Marty.
1985: definitely modified from what we see, the beginning of part I up to the parking lot scene would not happen. George seems to still be successful but likely raised his kids differently due to Arthur raising him differently
2015 is obviously up in the air but consider the following; that trip caused the alternate 1985 which forced the second trip to 1955 which eventually caused the temporal duplicate which is now the current delorean. Mind you if you take away that second 1955 trip there is still only one delorean as it likely does not end up on a railroad track without the 1885 trip.
Well the simple answer is we dont know how the future turns out. It seems most of the McFly's misery comes from Marty's 'chicken' problem, that doesn't mean he has other character flaws. Here's the dillema we have now, how does the timeline currently look?
1885; likely occurs the same way we see in part III
1931: we see this in the game
1955: well the time travels likely still have to happen but possibly modified due to doc having already met Marty.
1985: definitely modified from what we see, the beginning of part I up to the parking lot scene would not happen. George seems to still be successful but likely raised his kids differently due to Arthur raising him differently
2015 is obviously up in the air but consider the following; that trip caused the alternate 1985 which forced the second trip to 1955 which eventually caused the temporal duplicate which is now the current delorean. Mind you if you take away that second 1955 trip there is still only one delorean as it likely does not end up on a railroad track without the 1885 trip.
I haven't played the games in a while, so I won't comment on the effect of the game on the timeline, but this is what I think the timeline would look like after the trilogy-
1885: Occurs EXACTLY the way we see it in BTTF3
1955: Everything in BTTF1 and 2 happens pretty much EXACTLY as we see. Even the early BTTF3 part would happen exactly the same way, up until the uncovering of the Delorean from the mine. There isn't a tombstone in the final timeline, so Marty needs another reason to make the trip back to 1885 (I have theorised that Marty would still go to the library to look up Doc's future and discovers the picture of himself and Doc by the Clock Tower).
1985: As you said, it DEFINITELY changed. The entire early part of BTTF1 couldn't have happened the way we saw it (but I don't think things would be THAT different also-Marty could still be late to school, still be chucked out of the dance audition, he would still get the Clock Tower flyer-its mainly the scene at the McFly home which will change significantly). The end of BTTF1/start of BTTF2 happens EXACTLY the same way (except that Biff would have an even greater WTF moment because he might remember seeing the flying Delorean in '55). The 1985-A segment definitely doesn't happen anymore, yet Jennifer does end up on the porch in the final timeline after being left there in 1985-A. I believe she simply materialised on the porch at 2:42 AM (the time Marty and Doc left for 1955 from the alternate 1985, to get back the Almanac). The end of BTTF3 happens EXACTLY as we saw it.
2015: I'd prefer to believe this is totally up in the air and the future isn't written. And I really don't think Marty, Doc and Jennifer would show up from 1985 in this timeline, because the timeline has been drastically altered (much like how they wouldn't be in the final timeline 1985 for the period when they were in 1985-A).
2015: I'd prefer to believe this is totally up in the air and the future isn't written. And I really don't think Marty, Doc and Jennifer would show up from 1985 in this timeline, because the timeline has been drastically altered (much like how they wouldn't be in the final timeline 1985 for the period when they were in 1985-A).
At least Marty and Doc would have to show up in 2015, since Doc's trip to 1885 couldn't happen without the trip back to 1955. Jennifer wouldn't have to show up in 2015 though, since she wasn't pivotal to the events leading to 1955 and 1885.
The only thing pivotal to the events for Doc is to make sure that Marty gets to 2015, that Marty purchases the sports almanac, and that Doc puts it in the trash for old Biff to get. And to make sure that a tombstone is up in 1885 to make 1955 Doc send Marty to the old west.
The events could certainly play differently, but as long as Doc makes sure the pivotal events happen, there's no problem with paradoxes.
As for the game, Doc has to get 1986 Marty to 1931 somehow and he has to make sure that he's imprisoned in 1931 as the arsonist in order for the events to play out correctly. The emergency auto-recall device of the DeLorean simplifies things here, because as long as Doc gets himself imprisoned in 1931, the DeLorean will go to 1986, and the events will play out as in the game despite the fact that Doc now lives in 1986 part time.
Although, the fact that the 1986 Doc isn't the same Doc that Marty met during the events of the game muddies this up a bit since Doc wouldn't know the circumstances that caused the 1931 trip. Although, he does know that the present changed since he was confused about Edna's relationship status, so I'm sure scientific curiosity would have led him to ask Marty about his recent travels. Then, that knowledge would have led to his fear of creating paradoxes, which would have led to him making sure that Marty's trip to 1931 took place.
At least Marty and Doc would have to show up in 2015, since Doc's trip to 1885 couldn't happen without the trip back to 1955. Jennifer wouldn't have to show up in 2015 though, since she wasn't pivotal to the events leading to 1955 and 1885.
I don't think there would be a 'second version' of the trip, and certainly not one without Jennifer. When Doc returns from the future (whichever future!) it will be on the morning of October 26th 1985, at the precise moment when Marty and Jennifer are out admiring Marty's new truck. There's no reason why Doc WOULDN'T take Jennifer into the future IMO...and I believe that, at that point of time, Doc will ALWAYS have returned from the 2015 we saw in BTTF2 (i.e. the bad future where Marty Jr is in trouble and Marty's a loser).
The only thing pivotal to the events for Doc is to make sure that Marty gets to 2015, that Marty purchases the sports almanac, and that Doc puts it in the trash for old Biff to get. And to make sure that a tombstone is up in 1885 to make 1955 Doc send Marty to the old west.
Yes, but Doc wouldn't KNOW that Marty was going to purchase the Sport's Almanac, or that Old Biff was going to steal the time machine...so there is no question of 'making sure' that those events happen. And Doc wouldn't have a reason to bring Marty to 2015 unless it was to help his son who is in trouble. The whole Almanac incident spun off purely by coincidence...
And the tombstone fading from the picture clearly indicates that no tombstone existed at the time that picture was taken in the new timeline (why the picture still exists is another matter altogether :P)
The events could certainly play differently, but as long as Doc makes sure the pivotal events happen, there's no problem with paradoxes.
Yeah, but Doc really can't always make sure the 'pivotal events' happen...not in every timeline. Take the Hell Valley timeline (1985-A) for instance. In that timeline, Doc KNOWS that Marty has to go back in time on October 26th 1985...but since he's locked up, and Marty's in Switzerland, there's no way to make that happen. And yet, there is no paradox.
As for the game, Doc has to get 1986 Marty to 1931 somehow and he has to make sure that he's imprisoned in 1931 as the arsonist in order for the events to play out correctly. The emergency auto-recall device of the DeLorean simplifies things here, because as long as Doc gets himself imprisoned in 1931, the DeLorean will go to 1986, and the events will play out as in the game despite the fact that Doc now lives in 1986 part time.
Except that in the final timeline, 1986 Doc has no way of knowing that Marty is supposed to go back to 1931. He may have suspected at some point that Marty is his old friend 'Sonny Crockett' from 1931...but he couldn't be sure. He only figures it out once he sees the newspaper clipping and he'll only see that once he gets the Key to the City (which I assume is the day AFTER Marty goes back).
The way I see it, there are 2 Deloreans in Ep 5 which means there were 2 Doc's. Original Doc still gets arrested in 1931 and his Delorean travels to 1986. Marty goes back to 1931 in that Delorean. Final timeline Doc, who is still in 1986, then reads the newspaper clipping, puts two and two together, and travels back to 1931 in HIS Delorean to retrieve Marty.
I don't think there would be a 'second version' of the trip, and certainly not one without Jennifer. When Doc returns from the future (whichever future!) it will be on the morning of October 26th 1985, at the precise moment when Marty and Jennifer are out admiring Marty's new truck. There's no reason why Doc WOULDN'T take Jennifer into the future IMO...and I believe that, at that point of time, Doc will ALWAYS have returned from the 2015 we saw in BTTF2 (i.e. the bad future where Marty Jr is in trouble and Marty's a loser).
Doc needs to make sure he gets his second self to take the second Marty to the future for some reason (it doesn't necessarily have to be because of his son's incarceration) and Doc's second self doesn't have to arrive at the exact time frame as what occurred in the original timeline (since it isn't necessary for Jennifer to travel to 2015). The original Doc only has to guide the second Doc towards the pivotal events that caused the necessary time changes.
Yes, but Doc wouldn't KNOW that Marty was going to purchase the Sport's Almanac, or that Old Biff was going to steal the time machine...so there is no question of 'making sure' that those events happen. And Doc wouldn't have a reason to bring Marty to 2015 unless it was to help his son who is in trouble. The whole Almanac incident spun off purely by coincidence...
It's true that the Doc in the circular time frame wouldn't know about the future, but the original Doc has a flying time train (and later DeLorean), and he would make sure that his second self finds something startling about the future in order to get Marty to 2015. As long as Marty is in close proximity to the antique shop, the almanac incident would still occur.
And the tombstone fading from the picture clearly indicates that no tombstone existed at the time that picture was taken in the new timeline (why the picture still exists is another matter altogether :P)
As I said earlier in this thread, the fact that the picture of the grass exists without the tombstone is proof that time was still being written in regard to the tombstone. Doc clearly worries about time paradoxes, and he would know that the tombstone needs to exist in order for Marty to arrive in 1885. So, after Marty is back in 1985 Doc would erect a false tombstone in the exact spot (since Doc's death was expected, the undertaker would know where Doc was going to be buried). Doc's eccentricities would allow him to do weird things like this without the townspeople thinking it was out of character. And Doc's wealth would help with that too.
Yeah, but Doc really can't always make sure the 'pivotal events' happen...not in every timeline. Take the Hell Valley timeline (1985-A) for instance. In that timeline, Doc KNOWS that Marty has to go back in time on October 26th 1985...but since he's locked up, and Marty's in Switzerland, there's no way to make that happen. And yet, there is no paradox.
The time travel event must have occurred already in that timeline, since Marty travels back to 1955 from the Hell Valley timeline, and there is already a second Marty there and 1955 Doc is setting up the wires on the tower for the lightning to hit the time machine. So, because he knew that Marty had to travel back to 1955, Doc must have conducted his time travel experiment with Marty earlier than in the original timeline (probably because of the heat he had on him from government officials or Biff's goons (an incarceration for insanity likely wouldn't happen overnight) or because he knew that Marty was going to be sent to school in Switzerland).
Except that in the final timeline, 1986 Doc has no way of knowing that Marty is supposed to go back to 1931. He may have suspected at some point that Marty is his old friend 'Sonny Crockett' from 1931...but he couldn't be sure. He only figures it out once he sees the newspaper clipping and he'll only see that once he gets the Key to the City (which I assume is the day AFTER Marty goes back).
Doc definitely doesn't know by the end of the events of the game, but he and Marty will be spending time together in the time machine and afterward, and the topic will most certainly be brought up. Then, Doc's paranoia (rightfully so) about paradoxes will kick in, and he'll get himself incarcerated in 1931 at a later point with the DeLorean with just himself and Einstein so the events would play out.
The way I see it, there are 2 Deloreans in Ep 5 which means there were 2 Doc's. Original Doc still gets arrested in 1931 and his Delorean travels to 1986. Marty goes back to 1931 in that Delorean. Final timeline Doc, who is still in 1986, then reads the newspaper clipping, puts two and two together, and travels back to 1931 in HIS Delorean to retrieve Marty.
Yes, that's what happens. That's why I said the 1986 Doc is not the same Doc who traveled with Marty to 1931. He'd have to learn about the cause of the events that sent Marty to 1931 after the events of the game have happened since he wouldn't know them since he wasn't the Doc who experienced them.
I think we've already seen several timelines with paradoxes;
-the entire biffhoric timeline is a giant paradox; as mentioned the initial 1955 time travel likely doesn't happen with marty in swizerland and doc in a mental institution.
-the 2015 is heavily different. Biff is probably dead but even if he is alive, he is likely not washing cars. Griff crashes into the courthouse which is the Biff hotel in that timeline. Also Griff probably doesn't need to be planning any robberies (which was of the courthouse) if Biff is rich.
BTTF part II does show the timeline as linear: In 1955 marty from part I still seems to fade out despite it now being confirmed lorraine and george are still marrying.
the entire biffhoric timeline is a giant paradox; as mentioned the initial 1955 time travel likely doesn't happen with marty in swizerland and doc in a mental institution.
They had to have conducted the time experiment at some point, since by the rules of the Back to the Future universe, I don't think there's any way that Marty could see his duplicate in 1955 in the Biffhoric timeline without the time travel experiment having taken place (although, it would have had to have taken place earlier than the events of the first film). The ripple effect protecting Marty and Doc from the timeline changes would only effect the original Marty and Doc since the 1955 Marty and Doc would be of the Biffhoric timeline as explained by Doc in BTTF 2. Even as a paradox, the rules of the universe would prevent 1955 Marty from existing in the first place without the time travel experiment having taken place at some point in that timeline.
the 2015 is heavily different. Biff is probably dead but even if he is alive, he is likely not washing cars. Griff crashes into the courthouse which is the Biff hotel in that timeline. Also Griff probably doesn't need to be planning any robberies (which was of the courthouse) if Biff is rich.
That one's likely to be very different, yes. In the strictest sense, that would be a paradox since Doc and Marty probably never were in 2015 in the Biffhoric timeline (and even if the trip did happen since I'm sure there were enough horrors in Marty's son's future for Doc to bring him there to fix even without the robbery, Biff would be dead at that point and even if he weren't he wouldn't want the almanac since he already made his fortune).
But, in the rules of the Back to the Future universe, it isn't a paradox. With the time ripple effect, any paradoxes were avoided because Doc and Marty changed the timeline to prevent the Biffhoric timeline from ever occurring before the time ripple hit the original Marty and Doc.
In the new timeline, Marty and Doc would be able to travel to 2015 (and would have to, since Doc was alive and well in the 1890's as evidenced by Jules and Verne), so any paradoxes were prevented.
They had to have conducted the time experiment at some point, since by the rules of the Back to the Future universe, I don't think there's any way that Marty could see his duplicate in 1955 in the Biffhoric timeline without the time travel experiment having taken place (although, it would have had to have taken place earlier than the events of the first film). The ripple effect protecting Marty and Doc from the timeline changes would only effect the original Marty and Doc since the 1955 Marty and Doc would be of the Biffhoric timeline as explained by Doc in BTTF 2. Even as a paradox, the rules of the universe would prevent 1955 Marty from existing in the first place without the time travel experiment having taken place at some point in that timeline.
I've heard this theory before, and I don't buy it. The second Marty in 1955 is Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1. His actions are IDENTICAL to those of 'our' Marty. He couldn't possibly be Hell Valley Marty. Also, Hell Valley Marty likely wouldn't even KNOW Doc, far from being willing to participate in a time travel experiment with him.
The way this works is that Old Biff's trip to 1955 caused the timeline to diverge, resulting in the alternate Hell Valley reality...however the divergence occurred AFTER BTTF1 Marty's arrival in 1955. BTTF1 Marty had already spent a week in 1955 before Old Biff's arrivals...everything he had done in 1955 before November 12th was a part of history already. Old Biff giving himself the Almanac couldn't change whatever had happened BEFORE his arrival. Hence, the second Marty would still be present in 1955 in the background alongside 'our' Marty.
That one's likely to be very different, yes. In the strictest sense, that would be a paradox since Doc and Marty probably never were in 2015 in the Biffhoric timeline (and even if the trip did happen since I'm sure there were enough horrors in Marty's son's future for Doc to bring him there to fix even without the robbery, Biff would be dead at that point and even if he weren't he wouldn't want the almanac since he already made his fortune).
But, in the rules of the Back to the Future universe, it isn't a paradox. With the time ripple effect, any paradoxes were avoided because Doc and Marty changed the timeline to prevent the Biffhoric timeline from ever occurring before the time ripple hit the original Marty and Doc.
In the new timeline, Marty and Doc would be able to travel to 2015 (and would have to, since Doc was alive and well in the 1890's as evidenced by Jules and Verne), so any paradoxes were prevented.
Wait a second...it still WAS a paradox...because Marty and Doc fixing the timeline was NOT predestined, or even anticipated.
From the moment Old Biff leaves 2015 for 1955, up till the moment before Marty and Doc leave 1985-A for 1955, the Hell Valley timeline is pretty much the ONLY possible timeline. It is a timeline where Old Biff showed up in 1955 to give himself the Almanac, but where in 2015, he doesn't even exist to steal the Almanac and the Delorean in the FIRST place! That is a paradox and BTTF does allow for such paradoxes.
You're right about the fact that the time ripple would eventually hit original Marty and Doc and erase them from existence. We already saw that happening to Old Biff. Let us assume that Marty and Doc, for some reason were stuck in 1985-A, and the ripple effect eventually erased them. This is what the final timeline would have looked like-
On November 5th 1955, Twin Pines Marty would arrive and spend a week in 1955. Then, on November 12th 1955, Lone Pine Old Biff would arrive and give Young Biff the Almanac, and then leave. Twin Pines Marty would leave later that night when the lightning struck the Clock Tower. In 1958, Biff would start gambling and get rich. In 1973, George would be killed and Biff would marry Lorraine. In 1983, Doc would be committed BEFORE he could build the time machine. Then, late at night on October 26th 1985, Lone Pine Marty and Doc would arrive in the flying Delorean from 2015 and place Lone Pine Jennifer on the porch and be shocked by the new timeline. Eventually, they would be erased from existence. In 1996, Biff is killed by Lorraine. In 2015, Lone Pine Old Biff returns from 1955 and is erased from existence. At the moment of his arrival, Lone Pine Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien would materialise on the streets of Hilldale, and then leave fro 1985.
This hinges on the idea that while there is one TRUE timeline, time travelers from previous timelines can be shifted to the newer timelines unchanged.
The way this works is that Old Biff's trip to 1955 caused the timeline to diverge, resulting in the alternate Hell Valley reality...however the divergence occurred AFTER BTTF1 Marty's arrival in 1955. BTTF1 Marty had already spent a week in 1955 before Old Biff's arrivals...everything he had done in 1955 before November 12th was a part of history already. Old Biff giving himself the Almanac couldn't change whatever had happened BEFORE his arrival. Hence, the second Marty would still be present in 1955 in the background alongside 'our' Marty.
I hadn't thought of the fact that the changes occurred after Marty and Doc went back to 1955, so this theory does make sense. And Back to the Future: The Game makes it even more plausible, since Doc was in the 1931 picture despite the fact that Citizen Brown had never even built the time machine at that point.
From the moment Old Biff leaves 2015 for 1955, up till the moment before Marty and Doc leave 1985-A for 1955, the Hell Valley timeline is pretty much the ONLY possible timeline. It is a timeline where Old Biff showed up in 1955 to give himself the Almanac, but where in 2015, he doesn't even exist to steal the Almanac and the Delorean in the FIRST place! That is a paradox and BTTF does allow for such paradoxes.
You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.
I hadn't thought of the fact that the changes occurred after Marty and Doc went back to 1955, so this theory does make sense. And Back to the Future: The Game makes it even more plausible, since Doc was in the 1931 picture despite the fact that Citizen Brown had never even built the time machine at that point.
Yeah, you're right. When Episode 3 came out, a lot of people thought original Doc being in a photo in Citizen Brown's office was a mistake...but that's not true. The photo was taken in 1931...Original Doc was erased when he returned to 1986. Original Doc's erasure does not change the fact that he WAS present in 1931 and did appear in the picture. Now, had Marty had a picture of Doc from 1986, then Doc would have disappeared from the picture...
You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.
Well obviously, that's not a scenario we would EVER have in a BTTF story...cuz if ALL the time travelers were erased, that means 'our' Marty no longer exists and the story is effectively over...But I don't think there would be a paradox. All the time travelers would be erased and the Delorean would be erased...but people will still remember having interacted with the time travelers, and the time travelers will still have performed those actions which led to their erasure.
Actually, a paradox can only really adversely affect the universe if you assume that the future can affect the past WITHOUT time travel. In the classic Grandfather paradox scenario, if the time traveler kills his grandfather, he will never be born. Fair enough. But if he is never born and never travels back in time...will the fact that someone DID appear in the past and kill the grandfather change, even WITHOUT anyone traveling back in time? Cuz the only way a paradox can cause damage is if, at the moment when the time traveler is SUPPOSED to travel back in time and fails to do so, the universe either explodes, or somehow 'snaps back' to the original timeline and repeats the two alternating timelines in a perpetual loop...
I hadn't thought of the fact that the changes occurred after Marty and Doc went back to 1955, so this theory does make sense. And Back to the Future: The Game makes it even more plausible, since Doc was in the 1931 picture despite the fact that Citizen Brown had never even built the time machine at that point.
You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.
The same thing happens in the second film; Biff is likely dead in 2015 in the biffhoric timeline yet we still clearly see old biff show up in 1955
The same thing happens in the second film; Biff is likely dead in 2015 in the biffhoric timeline yet we still clearly see old biff show up in 1955
Apparently, that's the reason they deleted the scene of Old Biff fading from existence...because the Bobs felt that audiences wouldn't be able to understand how Old Biff could appear in 1955, when he was seen being erased from existence in 2015...
Comments
Doc didn't make the car able to fly. That's why there was a commercial for hover conversions. Mr. Fusion is a home energy reactor. It says so right under the name.
As a home energy reactor, the Mr. Fusion is most likely used to, as the name indicates, power homes. Also a great way to keep people recycling since it's run on garbage.
And as someone said, replacing the normal internal combustion engine with an electric engine would make NO sense. Remember. The DeLorean is a rear-engine vehicle. All of Doc's customizations are covering the engine. He'd have to rip out pretty much the entire back end of the time machine. Not to mention that the Mr. Fusion is stated to power the time circuits and the flux capacitor. Imagine if you will if Mr. Fusion powered the entire car. Now consider that Doc refuels Mr. Fusion after nearly every time jump(we don't know if this is always the case, but it seems to be). If Mr. Fusion has no power left after a time jump and the DeLorean is, say, in hover mode? The car would drop from the sky like a ton of bricks. So in the long run, keeping the engine running on gasoline was the safer choice. He just never anticipated Marty ripping a hole in the fuel line.
Ya, I figured that, I just meant he got it done. I'm guessing there had to be a converter to get cars off gas if they could make them fly or make Mr. Fushion.
I never saw the label, that answers that.
Why wouldn't Doc be able to open the engine hood and work on it? Are you saying he can't open the rear hood? Forgive me, I'm not too familiar with the design and how to go about about converting the car. (Now that I think about it, wasn't there a Texaco in 2015? Were they still running on gas?)
As for your third point, I guess it would depend how much power is left after each jump. You could say it would be same with gas though because people could get on the freeway with little gas and get into trouble. I'd assume there'd be a safety mechanism though. I didn't remember Doc saying Mr. Fushion powered the flux capacitor, just the circuits. Thanks for clearing that up.
There is no "hood" on the time machine any more. The time machine's "garage"-built components are covering it.
I wonder how Doc expected to perform routine maintenance.
I don't know. I could be wrong. But even if, like the reproductions, you are able to get to the engine compartment, it would still be too much of a pain to remove the engine out from under all of that junk.
Marty did not rip a hole in the fuel line! Why would he do that? The Indians attacked him because he looked like a cowboy, thats what happened in the movie!!!
What.
Nobody said Marty went and ripped the fuel line open maliciously or anything. The fuel line was damaged while the DeLorean was in Marty's care.
"A month? Doc, you're gonna get shot on Monday!!"
^^Yup.
Well not quite, he did have money from the 1800's so he was prepared for it. Which begs the question, how did he get all that money in his briefcase? Did he already do other time travelling prior to bringing Marty to 2015? We know he hasnt visited the old west yet as he says so but it seems it was on his agenda before deciding to destroy the time machine.
I'd imagine if not for buford shooting him, he eventually would have been able to repair the time circuits since he builds the trail from scratch.
Exactly, When Old Biff returns the Delorean back to Marty and Doc he does it because if he failed to it would result in a paradox. He would have also failed in his plan to become rich. Anyway, Biff starts to fade away in 2015 because he is possibly deceased in 2015..which is now altered because of his actions..this time has changed around Marty and Doc, but they leave immediately after so we do not see all of the changes.
The Doc is crazy, he screws up timelines, steals plutonium, steals trains, makes deals with terrorists, burns down homes... so he probably just took the delorean to the old west and straight up robbed a bank.
But in part II, he specifically says he'll never get to visit his favourite historical year the old west so that implies that his first trip to the old west was after the lightning strike.
I wouldn't put it past him.
"Is this a holdup?"
"It's a science experiment!"
But I agree with Michael J Fox is Canadian, he clearly states that he regrets not visiting the old west which implies that he hasn't travelled there yet.
If he did die before the events in 2015, wouldn't there be a time paradox? That means old Biff would not be around for the events that got him the almanac. Maybe the universe exploded as Doc and Marty left 2015? :eek:
That's the kind of logic that BttF avoids. Because technically once Marty realized what would happen if he continued to lose his temper when someone called him a chicken, his own timeline changed, therefore Doc wouldn't have seen anything wrong, therefore he wouldn't have needed to go back to get Marty, hence Marty wouldn't have bought the almanac, hence 2015A wouldn't have occurred, hence Doc wouldn't have traveled back to 1885, then Marty wouldn't have followed from 1955, and then Marty wouldn't have come to terms with the "chicken button", so on and so forth. Circular time travel logic doesn't apply in the BttF universe.
Ya, you have a point. I think we dissect this too much sometimes.
So, Doc still would have went back to 1985 to pick up Marty, Marty still would have picked up the almanac, he still would have gone to 1955, the DeLorean still would have been struck by lightning and sent to 1885. And because Doc is worried about circular time travel paradoxes, he would have put up his tombstone even though he didn't die so Marty would still come back to 1885 (which would explain why the picture still remained at the end of Back to the Future Part III). So the events of 1885 where Buford calls him yellow still would have happened, and he likely would have still avoided the Rolls Royce after those events since that is where he realized that it wasn't worth risking his life over someone calling him chicken.
I like the way you think fourth dimensionally but there are some flaws to it; if Doc planted his tombstomb, it wouldn't have disappeared in part III and certainly couldn't have changed names from Emmett Brown to Clint Eastwood.
I'm sure Doc was sweating bullets with the impending duel between Marty and Buford; if either character died, it would have caused a paradox as Marty needs to live to 2015 and Buford needs to live long enough to create Biffs ancestor (thought his may have happened by 1885. There are still 2 ancestors/descendants between Buford and Biff. Biff is born in 1937)
I often wonder if Marty and Doc ever discussed how marty needs to live his future. I guess Marty just needs to make sure he tries to forget what he knows about the future. Mainly he cant interfere with his sons interactions with Griff knowing Griff will attempt to get Marty Jr. to rob a courthouse and also where ne needs to avoid on october 21st 2015. The big question is whether Jennifer realizes her younger self is coming on that day as they do run into each other.
But other than that, Doc doesn't need to worry about 1985 Marty's time travels as they have already happened.
The tombstone in the original timeline was definitely authentic. I meant that Doc planted the tombstone after the events of Back to the Future Part III so that Marty would still have a reason to come to 1885 in the new timeline (and since time was still being written since the tombstone would still go up, the picture never disappeared at the end of Back to the Future Part III even though it just showed grass). The townspeople knew Doc was eccentric, so him paying for and placing a tombstone with a date of death that was not his real death date probably wouldn't have been seen as out of character to them. Doc having a lot of money probably helped with letting him do strange things like that too.
The Jennifer in the new timeline definitely would realize her younger self was coming, but I'm sure by that time Doc would have talked to her too. So, even though she didn't faint, she'd know to pretend to have done so, so that the younger Doc in the new timeline would just dismiss the two Jennifers fainting as he did in the original timeline.
As for the rest, I feel that if events did happen like in the movie, Biff would not have been able to return to the 2015 that Doc and Marty were in, so once he left with the intention to change time so drastically, they would have been stranded there. Again, boring movie. 2015A may have looked exactly like the original 2015, but since Biff drastically changed Hill Valley, he would have arrived in a time where Doc and Marty would not have had reasons to even be there. Such as what Doc led onto in 1985A about the future being alternate as well.
It's almost like Doc and Marty didn't exist in 1985A, even though everybody acknowledged Marty and Doc still had his laboratory. I guess they just cancelled out their currently existing selves. Since their currently existing selves would also not have travelled to the future at that point, I rather think that their 1985A selves would still exist in tandem and they would have to keep out of their ways, since they come from the original 1985.
I'm trying to remember in Sliders, sometimes the main characters were there in different dimensions which is essentially what happens in BTTF, but other times they were not. I would say they should be there unless they returned to the exact same dimension, but then if the dimension was not changed drastically, they could just replace themselves because they are so similar, and events would have played out the same. This is a tough question.
SH
Once they returned to 1985-A, they were briefly able to co-exist alongside their 1985-A counterparts because they had 'escaped' the ripple effect by virtue of being outside their own time when it hit. However, I feel that unless they fixed things, they would eventually have been erased.
As far as the future goes, I believe that when 2015 comes around in the final 'Eastwood' timeline, no 1985 Marty, Doc or Jennifer would show up. Look at it this way. The drag race between Marty and Needles on October 27th 1985 serves as the 'junction point'. In the original timeline which proceeded from this point, Marty broke his hand in the race and ended up becoming the loser Marty we see in 2015. This is the future Doc saw on his original trip to 2015, and which Marty and Jennifer see in BTTF2. However, Marty chooses NOT to race Needles, and so the timelines skews on a tangent, resulting in a (hopefully) happier future. Marty, Doc and Jennifer traveled to 2015 BEFORE the timeline skewed onto the tangent and therefore they will ALWAYS witness the 'bad' future, and will always remember that future. However, they grow up to live in the 'good' future of the new timeline...where their younger selves will not show up.
The future usually represents the most likely scenario. At no point is there a question of Marty and Jennifer returning to 1985. Doc always intends it and even Biff likely realizes he has to return the time machine to them in order to get rich.
It had been established that time travelers are immune to the timeline. It's the same logic that 1985 doc in 1885 is not the same one who helps Marty a second time in 1955 (he's immune to the further changes to the timeline once his delorean gets struck by lightning).
You could argue either way what happens on October 21st 2015 in the eastwood timeline; like you said the timeline is different but it's quite possible the events of Marty Jr. and Biff still happen in the eastwood timeline. People have posed the question "why doesnt Doc help Marty Sr. from getting fired" but likely don't realize that in the original 2015 (which doc sees offscreen) that event may not happen since Marty Jr. goes to jail so Sr. has bigger problems that night than getting rich. I kind of think Doc and Marty still do show up in 2015 in the eastwood timeline; that event does need to happen to set the wheels in motion for that timeline to exist (Biff needs to steal the time machine forcing them to go to 1955 which gets doc sent to 1885).
I don't know. If the time travelers show up in Eastwood 2015 it could cause a major paradox.
Alternatively, it MIGHT just work, provided you believe that even in the 'happier' future for the McFly's, Marty Jr. is still a wimp getting hassled around by Griff and still participates in the robbery. Thus, although Marty's life is great, Doc wants to help Marty Jr., so he returns to 1985 to bring Marty and Jennifer to the future. Marty could still stand in for Marty Jr. and the hoverboard chase causing Griff's arrest could still happen. Marty would still pick up the Almanac. Old Biff would still notice the Delorean. In fact, this time, he would remember having seen it TWICE before (in 1955, AND in 1985). When he hears the explanation about the time machine, he realises that the old man who gave him the Almanac when he was a teen was HIMSELF.
Now, things get a bit difficult. If Marty is very successful then he likely wouldn't be living in Hilldale. In fact, if he's a really 'rich rock star' or something like that he would live in a Mansion surrounded by security guards...and it would be impossible for younger Jennifer to be received into the house as her older self. The one way around this would be that older Marty and Jennifer KNOW that their younger selves are out there and so stay away from the house, and instruct their guards to do so as well (?). Or maybe they DO live in Hilldale, except that Marty's success has made it a great neighbourhood (a MUCH easier possibility to work with)...and older Marty and Jennifer stay away from home intentionally. Younger Jennifer is brought into the house by the cops. Marty roams about Hilldale while Doc and Einstien go to fetch Jennifer. Jennifer might here about her's and Marty's happy future from Lorraine, if she visits the house in this timeline as well. Marty may show up on cue (and possibly plays 'Power of Love' in his den perfectly! And orders Needles around on the phone). Old Biff steals the Almanac and Delorean and goes back in time. I think the older Jennifer would deliberately look at her younger self to cause her to faint, so that Doc and Marty would pick her up. Old Biff would return, and be shocked to discover that everything is the same and nothing has changed. OR...what is more likely is that Marty, Doc and Jennifer will fade from Eastwood 2015 (because this is the moment, where 'originally', 2015 A came into existence) and Old Biff will fade BACK into existence near the trash cans a few minutes later...
But honestly, I'd prefer to believe the future is COMPLETELY different...that Marty Jr. doesn't have any trouble with Griff, and that Old Biff never gets a chance to steal the Delorean again.
1885; likely occurs the same way we see in part III
1931: we see this in the game
1955: well the time travels likely still have to happen but possibly modified due to doc having already met Marty.
1985: definitely modified from what we see, the beginning of part I up to the parking lot scene would not happen. George seems to still be successful but likely raised his kids differently due to Arthur raising him differently
2015 is obviously up in the air but consider the following; that trip caused the alternate 1985 which forced the second trip to 1955 which eventually caused the temporal duplicate which is now the current delorean. Mind you if you take away that second 1955 trip there is still only one delorean as it likely does not end up on a railroad track without the 1885 trip.
I haven't played the games in a while, so I won't comment on the effect of the game on the timeline, but this is what I think the timeline would look like after the trilogy-
1885: Occurs EXACTLY the way we see it in BTTF3
1955: Everything in BTTF1 and 2 happens pretty much EXACTLY as we see. Even the early BTTF3 part would happen exactly the same way, up until the uncovering of the Delorean from the mine. There isn't a tombstone in the final timeline, so Marty needs another reason to make the trip back to 1885 (I have theorised that Marty would still go to the library to look up Doc's future and discovers the picture of himself and Doc by the Clock Tower).
1985: As you said, it DEFINITELY changed. The entire early part of BTTF1 couldn't have happened the way we saw it (but I don't think things would be THAT different also-Marty could still be late to school, still be chucked out of the dance audition, he would still get the Clock Tower flyer-its mainly the scene at the McFly home which will change significantly). The end of BTTF1/start of BTTF2 happens EXACTLY the same way (except that Biff would have an even greater WTF moment because he might remember seeing the flying Delorean in '55). The 1985-A segment definitely doesn't happen anymore, yet Jennifer does end up on the porch in the final timeline after being left there in 1985-A. I believe she simply materialised on the porch at 2:42 AM (the time Marty and Doc left for 1955 from the alternate 1985, to get back the Almanac). The end of BTTF3 happens EXACTLY as we saw it.
2015: I'd prefer to believe this is totally up in the air and the future isn't written. And I really don't think Marty, Doc and Jennifer would show up from 1985 in this timeline, because the timeline has been drastically altered (much like how they wouldn't be in the final timeline 1985 for the period when they were in 1985-A).
The only thing pivotal to the events for Doc is to make sure that Marty gets to 2015, that Marty purchases the sports almanac, and that Doc puts it in the trash for old Biff to get. And to make sure that a tombstone is up in 1885 to make 1955 Doc send Marty to the old west.
The events could certainly play differently, but as long as Doc makes sure the pivotal events happen, there's no problem with paradoxes.
As for the game, Doc has to get 1986 Marty to 1931 somehow and he has to make sure that he's imprisoned in 1931 as the arsonist in order for the events to play out correctly. The emergency auto-recall device of the DeLorean simplifies things here, because as long as Doc gets himself imprisoned in 1931, the DeLorean will go to 1986, and the events will play out as in the game despite the fact that Doc now lives in 1986 part time.
Although, the fact that the 1986 Doc isn't the same Doc that Marty met during the events of the game muddies this up a bit since Doc wouldn't know the circumstances that caused the 1931 trip. Although, he does know that the present changed since he was confused about Edna's relationship status, so I'm sure scientific curiosity would have led him to ask Marty about his recent travels. Then, that knowledge would have led to his fear of creating paradoxes, which would have led to him making sure that Marty's trip to 1931 took place.
I don't think there would be a 'second version' of the trip, and certainly not one without Jennifer. When Doc returns from the future (whichever future!) it will be on the morning of October 26th 1985, at the precise moment when Marty and Jennifer are out admiring Marty's new truck. There's no reason why Doc WOULDN'T take Jennifer into the future IMO...and I believe that, at that point of time, Doc will ALWAYS have returned from the 2015 we saw in BTTF2 (i.e. the bad future where Marty Jr is in trouble and Marty's a loser).
Yes, but Doc wouldn't KNOW that Marty was going to purchase the Sport's Almanac, or that Old Biff was going to steal the time machine...so there is no question of 'making sure' that those events happen. And Doc wouldn't have a reason to bring Marty to 2015 unless it was to help his son who is in trouble. The whole Almanac incident spun off purely by coincidence...
And the tombstone fading from the picture clearly indicates that no tombstone existed at the time that picture was taken in the new timeline (why the picture still exists is another matter altogether :P)
Yeah, but Doc really can't always make sure the 'pivotal events' happen...not in every timeline. Take the Hell Valley timeline (1985-A) for instance. In that timeline, Doc KNOWS that Marty has to go back in time on October 26th 1985...but since he's locked up, and Marty's in Switzerland, there's no way to make that happen. And yet, there is no paradox.
Except that in the final timeline, 1986 Doc has no way of knowing that Marty is supposed to go back to 1931. He may have suspected at some point that Marty is his old friend 'Sonny Crockett' from 1931...but he couldn't be sure. He only figures it out once he sees the newspaper clipping and he'll only see that once he gets the Key to the City (which I assume is the day AFTER Marty goes back).
The way I see it, there are 2 Deloreans in Ep 5 which means there were 2 Doc's. Original Doc still gets arrested in 1931 and his Delorean travels to 1986. Marty goes back to 1931 in that Delorean. Final timeline Doc, who is still in 1986, then reads the newspaper clipping, puts two and two together, and travels back to 1931 in HIS Delorean to retrieve Marty.
It's true that the Doc in the circular time frame wouldn't know about the future, but the original Doc has a flying time train (and later DeLorean), and he would make sure that his second self finds something startling about the future in order to get Marty to 2015. As long as Marty is in close proximity to the antique shop, the almanac incident would still occur.
As I said earlier in this thread, the fact that the picture of the grass exists without the tombstone is proof that time was still being written in regard to the tombstone. Doc clearly worries about time paradoxes, and he would know that the tombstone needs to exist in order for Marty to arrive in 1885. So, after Marty is back in 1985 Doc would erect a false tombstone in the exact spot (since Doc's death was expected, the undertaker would know where Doc was going to be buried). Doc's eccentricities would allow him to do weird things like this without the townspeople thinking it was out of character. And Doc's wealth would help with that too.
The time travel event must have occurred already in that timeline, since Marty travels back to 1955 from the Hell Valley timeline, and there is already a second Marty there and 1955 Doc is setting up the wires on the tower for the lightning to hit the time machine. So, because he knew that Marty had to travel back to 1955, Doc must have conducted his time travel experiment with Marty earlier than in the original timeline (probably because of the heat he had on him from government officials or Biff's goons (an incarceration for insanity likely wouldn't happen overnight) or because he knew that Marty was going to be sent to school in Switzerland).
Doc definitely doesn't know by the end of the events of the game, but he and Marty will be spending time together in the time machine and afterward, and the topic will most certainly be brought up. Then, Doc's paranoia (rightfully so) about paradoxes will kick in, and he'll get himself incarcerated in 1931 at a later point with the DeLorean with just himself and Einstein so the events would play out.
Yes, that's what happens. That's why I said the 1986 Doc is not the same Doc who traveled with Marty to 1931. He'd have to learn about the cause of the events that sent Marty to 1931 after the events of the game have happened since he wouldn't know them since he wasn't the Doc who experienced them.
-the entire biffhoric timeline is a giant paradox; as mentioned the initial 1955 time travel likely doesn't happen with marty in swizerland and doc in a mental institution.
-the 2015 is heavily different. Biff is probably dead but even if he is alive, he is likely not washing cars. Griff crashes into the courthouse which is the Biff hotel in that timeline. Also Griff probably doesn't need to be planning any robberies (which was of the courthouse) if Biff is rich.
BTTF part II does show the timeline as linear: In 1955 marty from part I still seems to fade out despite it now being confirmed lorraine and george are still marrying.
That one's likely to be very different, yes. In the strictest sense, that would be a paradox since Doc and Marty probably never were in 2015 in the Biffhoric timeline (and even if the trip did happen since I'm sure there were enough horrors in Marty's son's future for Doc to bring him there to fix even without the robbery, Biff would be dead at that point and even if he weren't he wouldn't want the almanac since he already made his fortune).
But, in the rules of the Back to the Future universe, it isn't a paradox. With the time ripple effect, any paradoxes were avoided because Doc and Marty changed the timeline to prevent the Biffhoric timeline from ever occurring before the time ripple hit the original Marty and Doc.
In the new timeline, Marty and Doc would be able to travel to 2015 (and would have to, since Doc was alive and well in the 1890's as evidenced by Jules and Verne), so any paradoxes were prevented.
I've heard this theory before, and I don't buy it. The second Marty in 1955 is Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1. His actions are IDENTICAL to those of 'our' Marty. He couldn't possibly be Hell Valley Marty. Also, Hell Valley Marty likely wouldn't even KNOW Doc, far from being willing to participate in a time travel experiment with him.
The way this works is that Old Biff's trip to 1955 caused the timeline to diverge, resulting in the alternate Hell Valley reality...however the divergence occurred AFTER BTTF1 Marty's arrival in 1955. BTTF1 Marty had already spent a week in 1955 before Old Biff's arrivals...everything he had done in 1955 before November 12th was a part of history already. Old Biff giving himself the Almanac couldn't change whatever had happened BEFORE his arrival. Hence, the second Marty would still be present in 1955 in the background alongside 'our' Marty.
Wait a second...it still WAS a paradox...because Marty and Doc fixing the timeline was NOT predestined, or even anticipated.
From the moment Old Biff leaves 2015 for 1955, up till the moment before Marty and Doc leave 1985-A for 1955, the Hell Valley timeline is pretty much the ONLY possible timeline. It is a timeline where Old Biff showed up in 1955 to give himself the Almanac, but where in 2015, he doesn't even exist to steal the Almanac and the Delorean in the FIRST place! That is a paradox and BTTF does allow for such paradoxes.
You're right about the fact that the time ripple would eventually hit original Marty and Doc and erase them from existence. We already saw that happening to Old Biff. Let us assume that Marty and Doc, for some reason were stuck in 1985-A, and the ripple effect eventually erased them. This is what the final timeline would have looked like-
On November 5th 1955, Twin Pines Marty would arrive and spend a week in 1955. Then, on November 12th 1955, Lone Pine Old Biff would arrive and give Young Biff the Almanac, and then leave. Twin Pines Marty would leave later that night when the lightning struck the Clock Tower. In 1958, Biff would start gambling and get rich. In 1973, George would be killed and Biff would marry Lorraine. In 1983, Doc would be committed BEFORE he could build the time machine. Then, late at night on October 26th 1985, Lone Pine Marty and Doc would arrive in the flying Delorean from 2015 and place Lone Pine Jennifer on the porch and be shocked by the new timeline. Eventually, they would be erased from existence. In 1996, Biff is killed by Lorraine. In 2015, Lone Pine Old Biff returns from 1955 and is erased from existence. At the moment of his arrival, Lone Pine Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien would materialise on the streets of Hilldale, and then leave fro 1985.
This hinges on the idea that while there is one TRUE timeline, time travelers from previous timelines can be shifted to the newer timelines unchanged.
You're right, that was a paradox, but not one that affected Doc and Marty directly since time was still being written due to the fact that Doc and Marty were yet unaffected due to them not being hit by the time ripple. We don't yet know what would happen if a paradox happened after the time ripple reached all the time travelers. That part of the Back to the Future universe hasn't been established. The universe could be self-correcting, or it could be disastrous like Doc feared.
Yeah, you're right. When Episode 3 came out, a lot of people thought original Doc being in a photo in Citizen Brown's office was a mistake...but that's not true. The photo was taken in 1931...Original Doc was erased when he returned to 1986. Original Doc's erasure does not change the fact that he WAS present in 1931 and did appear in the picture. Now, had Marty had a picture of Doc from 1986, then Doc would have disappeared from the picture...
Well obviously, that's not a scenario we would EVER have in a BTTF story...cuz if ALL the time travelers were erased, that means 'our' Marty no longer exists and the story is effectively over...But I don't think there would be a paradox. All the time travelers would be erased and the Delorean would be erased...but people will still remember having interacted with the time travelers, and the time travelers will still have performed those actions which led to their erasure.
Actually, a paradox can only really adversely affect the universe if you assume that the future can affect the past WITHOUT time travel. In the classic Grandfather paradox scenario, if the time traveler kills his grandfather, he will never be born. Fair enough. But if he is never born and never travels back in time...will the fact that someone DID appear in the past and kill the grandfather change, even WITHOUT anyone traveling back in time? Cuz the only way a paradox can cause damage is if, at the moment when the time traveler is SUPPOSED to travel back in time and fails to do so, the universe either explodes, or somehow 'snaps back' to the original timeline and repeats the two alternating timelines in a perpetual loop...
Apparently, that's the reason they deleted the scene of Old Biff fading from existence...because the Bobs felt that audiences wouldn't be able to understand how Old Biff could appear in 1955, when he was seen being erased from existence in 2015...