Since this thread is going to be locked probabley anytime soon, I'd like to suggest the people who like me enjoy having a civilsed and most importantly, truely open-minded discussion on believes/religion/values to open an IRC chatroom with a log feature open only to the people who stick to the subject of the room. Or I suggest them to open a soicial group withing the forums here dedicated to the discussion of relegion.
I usually don't participate in these kinds of threads because people always end up having one sided conversations and I'm always outnumbered. It grows tiring. But I'll just state my stance and be on my way. I'd probably be what most people consider religious, but I consider myself spiritual. That is, I'm not ritualistic nor obsessed with "right or wrong" since that's not what I believe Christianity was ever supposed to be about.
Here's what I believe. I believe that there is a truth out there and that picking and choosing something I want to be true that suits my way of living is only fooling myself. I don't believe that (and I'm not saying this pompously) "whatever is good for you is the way to go." If I believed that I'd be on a very different road and I'd be very unhappy. I don't believe people really know what they want because what they think they want leads them to ruin. I believe that I can be wrong and that I most likely am wrong somewhere in my beliefs, but I believe what I believe based on experiences I've had in my life and I continue to do so. I constantly question my own beliefs and search for the truth. There is only one truth and I'm not going to pretend I know what all of it is because I'm not God.
I don't subscribe to the "faith alone" standpoint. That is, I don't believe what I believe just for the sake of believing in something to make me happy and get me through life. I don't want to believe that what I know is the truth. I want to know what the truth is so that I can believe it.
As a Secular Humanist, I don't think you know what a Secular Humanist is. It is not merely a group, but rather a philosophical view. I'm very tired and about to dose off, so here's the Wikipedia description.
Sigh...if you would have read my entire post, you would have seen that i was speaking of a specificSwedish organisation, called the "Humanists". I even mentioned their campaign in the Swedish subway: http://www.humanisterna.se/
Obviously there are different views amongst people who call themselves "humanists".
And just because you call yourself agnostic, that dosen't mean you believe in God.
Sigh...if you would have read my entire post, you would have seen that i was speaking of a specificSwedish organisation, called the "Humanists". I even mentioned their campaign in the Swedish subway: http://www.humanisterna.se/
Obviously there are different views amongst people who call themselves "humanists".
I read your post, thanks.
"Secular Humanism, alternatively known as Humanism (often with a capital H to distinguish it from other forms of humanism)..."
It's the same kind of Humanism. They have the same manifesto and even the same symbol. Perhaps you should actually look into what they do. I don't even know Swedish and I found it almost instantaneously.
I also looked up the subway campaign. It was to reach out to others who felt the same way. It's the same way of any other advocacy group would reach out for people. I'm not entirely sure why you're singling them out. The signs don't just say "God doesn't exist" but rather the approximation of "God probably doesn't exist: but still he affects you. Less than 20 percent of Swedes are religious. Yet God is holy in our country. We in the humanist movement think it is worth considering. There are many examples of how religion affects our lives - not only for believers but also for the seven million other people in Sweden. How religious are you? Do our webtest!".
It doesn't even insist that there is no God period.
I'm more inclined to think that if there is a big man in te sky he's not gonna bother over specifics whether you call him God or Allah or whatever. A being that supposedly created the universe isn't gonna get petty over the fine print.
What if there's more than one deity? Honestly, that'd make a lot more sense than an omnipresent being who's supposed to be just AND merciful, you know what im sayin?
What if there's more than one deity? Honestly, that'd make a lot more sense than an omnipresent being who's supposed to be just AND merciful, you know what im sayin?
Nope.
It makes perfect sense to me that God created space and time itself, and therefore does not need to be constrained by the limitations of His own creation. It also makes perfect sense to me to admit that He is holy and righteous and that I, by comparison am weak, prideful, self-indulgent, sinful, disobedient, undeserving and whatever else. Suffice it to say that I'm in no way worthy of Him and I quite simply deserve to be destroyed, and there is nothing I could possibly do of my own merit to ever be considered as worthy of being in the presence of such a perfect being as Him. Further, it makes sense to say that the perfect and ultimate sacrifice has been made in my stead, and if I accept said sacrifice I can then be saved from my deserved destruction.
What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that the complexity, intricacy, beauty and balance of the universe could possibly exist merely by random chance; nor that if a being were to spend as much time and effort into developing the universe into what it is, that such a being would have no vested interest in its outcome.
It makes perfect sense to me that God created space and time itself, and therefore does not need to be constrained by the limitations of His own creation. It also makes perfect sense to me to admit that He is holy and righteous and that I, by comparison am weak, prideful, self-indulgent, sinful, disobedient, undeserving and whatever else. Suffice it to say that I'm in no way worthy of Him and I quite simply deserve to be destroyed, and there is nothing I could possibly do of my own merit to ever be considered as worthy of being in the presence of such a perfect being as Him. Further, it makes sense to say that the perfect and ultimate sacrifice has been made in my stead, and if I accept said sacrifice I can then be saved from my deserved destruction.
What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that the complexity, intricacy, beauty and balance of the universe could possibly exist merely by random chance; nor that if a being were to spend as much time and effort into developing the universe into what it is, that such a being would have no vested interest in its outcome.
It seems that the burden has fallen to me to debate this. I realize I'm going to really piss some people off when I say this, but frankly your insistence that there is a god who gives a fuck and is all able offends me a bit (and you shall see why momentarily) so I suppose we're even. I do beg the mods to allow this to stay up, as I am voicing my opinion and as this is a thread on religion, I have every right to do so... unless you intend to bring out the censorship.
It makes perfect sense to me that God created space and time itself, and therefore does not need to be constrained by the limitations of His own creation. It also makes perfect sense to me to admit that He is holy and righteous and that I, by comparison am weak, prideful, self-indulgent, sinful, disobedient, undeserving and whatever else.
How does this make any sense when weighed against even the most basic scientific understanding of how the universe was created? Why does there *need* to be a god? Why would you willingly set yourself at such a low station? You are the product of billions of years of fortuitous evolution - this we can prove. Let no minister or pastor tell you otherwise.
Suffice it to say that I'm in no way worthy of Him and I quite simply deserve to be destroyed, and there is nothing I could possibly do of my own merit to ever be considered as worthy of being in the presence of such a perfect being as Him. Further, it makes sense to say that the perfect and ultimate sacrifice has been made in my stead, and if I accept said sacrifice I can then be saved from my deserved destruction.
This, frankly, sounds very strange. It sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship would say. If god cared enough to send Jesus down, or whatever; why the hell would he make people such loathsome vermin, as you claim we are? Your logic is flawed.
What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that the complexity, intricacy, beauty and balance of the universe could possibly exist merely by random chance; nor that if a being were to spend as much time and effort into developing the universe into what it is, that such a being would have no vested interest in its outcome.
...Or it could just be that we perceive the universe as complex because we haven't been exposed to anything more complicated. That makes so much more sense, don't you think? You're making a lot of logical leaps based upon nothing. Frankly, it is frightening to see you put yourself down so much. If this is what fervent religion does to its adherents' mindsets then I am certainly glad to have escaped its poisonous grasp.
If god cared, would he really make you hate yourself? Would he have created people like me, who are disabled? Would he allow what has happened to Africa and the Middle East to go unchecked?
Doesn't it make more sense to think there's no such thing as a judgmental prick in the sky who hates you?
I've always found it odd that people refer to God as "He" or "Him" as if God were a human male. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call God an "it"?
The reason for this is the fact that Western civilization is very strongly connected with Abrahamic religion. Since the tenets of these faiths hold that god is a male, that is what god is referred to as. Furthermore, in the English language; the proper term (before the advent of political correctness) for a subject of ambiguous gender is 'he.'
I agree with you, though; that on the off chance there were such a deity or force that we might call god, he would likely be genderless and completely unrecognizable or comprehendable to the human mind. Furthermore, said deity would likely worry (if it possessed conscious thoughts) about far more important things than just the individual lives of the inhabitants of one small planet orbiting a sub average star in an average galaxy and would therefore just leave us alone.
It makes perfect sense to me that God created space and time itself, and therefore does not need to be constrained by the limitations of His own creation. It also makes perfect sense to me to admit that. He is holy and righteous...
First off, you didn't even touch on the possibility of more than one deity, but I digress. Let's see exactly what I meant earlier when I said that it'd make more sense. God is described as the following things: Omnipresent, omniscient, omni-benevolent, and omnipotent. When you throw these descriptions all together, you start getting into super contradictory mode.
Let's ignore the fact that he killed or ordered to kill at the very least 2,476,636 people oft because they didn't submit to his vain desires or tormented people like Lot for some sick betting game with Satan for a moment, okay? Let's ignore all of that and pretend that never happened.
God is all good and all powerful. This doesn't match up. If he were all good and powerful, he wouldn't let specific groups of people around the world successful and other groups in a constant state of suffering. I'm not talking about heathen folks either, I'm talking about Christians in sub-Saharan Africa. These predominantly Christian African countries are suffering with the lowest life expectancy rates in the world. Why does he refuse to help them? He could save all of them by merely expending a fraction of a drop of his power, and yet he doesn't. AIDS ravages through southern Africa and makes some the average life spans merely 30 in extreme parts. Even if they weren't predominantly Christian, why wouldn't he help his supposed Child? That's like a father having two sons. One likes sports, the other doesn't. He's upset that this child dislikes sports, so he helps his sports-loving son get through college while kicking his other child on the streets to fend for himself. Except instead of sports, it's worshiping him.
This gets even worse when you consider the fact that this God is supposedly omnipresent and omniscient. So before, he could have just been ignorant, you know, whatever, but he's supposedly there and KNOWS what's going to happen all throughout time. If I recall correctly, more and more theologians are coming to the conclusion that the bible actually refers to multiple deities and that monotheism was tacked on much later.
...and that I, by comparison am weak, prideful, self-indulgent, sinful, disobedient, undeserving and whatever else. Suffice it to say that I'm in no way worthy of Him and I quite simply deserve to be destroyed, and there is nothing I could possibly do of my own merit to ever be considered as worthy of being in the presence of such a perfect being as Him. Further, it makes sense to say that the perfect and ultimate sacrifice has been made in my stead, and if I accept said sacrifice I can then be saved from my deserved destruction.
I'm going to be perfectly honest, you sound like a sub in a BDSM dungeon. Why anyone would want to worship a supposedly omni-benevolent deity that claims to have made you from his image while still wanting you to feel like a worthless piece of shit if you don't feed his ego is beyond me.
Not to mention that you seem like a really nice dude and you're saying that you're a horrible person in comparison to a grumpy god who is vain, wrathful, unforgiving, picky, racist, misogynistic, masochistic, and hypocritical. Even if I knew for a fact that this god was real, I would never worship him. Damn me to hell for eternity, but I have my morals and this guy does not follow them.
I probably wouldn't have responded to this post if you hadn't described yourself in such a downtrodden manner. I urge you to at least don't think yourself as scum.
What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that the complexity, intricacy, beauty and balance of the universe could possibly exist merely by random chance; nor that if a being were to spend as much time and effort into developing the universe into what it is, that such a being would have no vested interest in its outcome.
Again, just because you don't understand how something works doesn't automatically mean something supernatural made it happen. Personally, I think it's exciting and exhilarating to know that I and everything around me is the product can be learned and known. I would never know how these things are if I just defaulted to "This is pretty! Thanks, God!"
It seems that the burden has fallen to me to debate this. I realize I'm going to really piss some people off when I say this, but frankly your insistence that there is a god who gives a fuck and is all able offends me a bit (and you shall see why momentarily) so I suppose we're even. I do beg the mods to allow this to stay up, as I am voicing my opinion and as this is a thread on religion, I have every right to do so... unless you intend to bring out the censorship.
Now, allow me to begin;
How does this make any sense when weighed against even the most basic scientific understanding of how the universe was created? Why does there *need* to be a god? Why would you willingly set yourself at such a low station? You are the product of billions of years of fortuitous evolution - this we can prove. Let no minister or pastor tell you otherwise.
This, frankly, sounds very strange. It sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship would say. If god cared enough to send Jesus down, or whatever; why the hell would he make people such loathsome vermin, as you claim we are? Your logic is flawed.
...Or it could just be that we perceive the universe as complex because we haven't been exposed to anything more complicated. That makes so much more sense, don't you think? You're making a lot of logical leaps based upon nothing. Frankly, it is frightening to see you put yourself down so much. If this is what fervent religion does to its adherents' mindsets then I am certainly glad to have escaped its poisonous grasp.
If god cared, would he really make you hate yourself? Would he have created people like me, who are disabled? Would he allow what has happened to Africa and the Middle East to go unchecked?
Doesn't it make more sense to think there's no such thing as a judgmental prick in the sky who hates you?
Get help.
Shouting, insulting and cursing isn't a logical application of your reasoning faculties.
I used to be religious. But then my family underwent a series of crises. First my dad died (eleven years ago today, in fact 11 years and 42 minutes at the time of writing), with no previous symptoms or anything. Then a few months later, my nan died. Then, a month or so after that, my auntie. And then a few months later, my gran. After that, I thought what was the point? If god is all powerful, then why did he decide to make our family go through these hardships? We'd never hurt anyone before. The religious folk amongst you would argue that it's gods way of testing our faith (I used a similair arguement in my Religion exam a few years back. I got an A* overall in it), but If a god needs to kill people and completely ruin peoples lives just to make sure they praise him, I don't want anything to do with him. We still feel the effects of those times. I can't help but think how much better my life would have been had I grown up with a father.
After that I underwent a few realisations. Like the fact that all religion seems to be for is to help comfort people as they go through life. That person who's bullying you? They'll be in eternal pain soon enough. That loved relative who died? You'll see them again and be eternally happy. Plus, despite the fact god is omnipotent and omnipresent, there are still very bad deeds committed all over the world. I was taught at Sunday school that God was responsible for all the actions we do, shaping our decisions, and effectively controlling us. If that is the case, then why do people commit bad acts? Why are there hundreds of different faiths? Why did he need to send down his son to forgive us of our sins, if it was he who made us commit them?
And another thing that confuses me is that why is it that now, when media is worldwide, and any piece of spectacular news will be seen be huge portions of the globe, that god is not producing miracles. You know, the bible ones, like splitting the seas, feeding the hungry, turning water into wine? Now would be the ideal time to perform such a miracle, as it would undoubtedly convert millions into religious folk.
I realise all my reasons are mainly directed at christianity (as that is the religion I have most experience with, being a former christian), but I feel most of the arguments could be adapted to other religions.
I personally think faith can be a good thing. It helps bring people together in the community, but I couldn't be apart of it again.
If god is all powerful, then why did he decide to make our family go through these hardships? We'd never hurt anyone before. The religious folk amongst you would argue that it's gods way of testing our faith (I used a similair arguement in my Religion exam a few years back. I got an A* overall in it), but If a god needs to kill people and completely ruin peoples lives just to make sure they praise him, I don't want anything to do with him. We still feel the effects of those times. I can't help but think how much better my life would have been had I grown up with a father.
After that I underwent a few realisations. Like the fact that all religion seems to be for is to help comfort people as they go through life. That person who's bullying you? They'll be in eternal pain soon enough. That loved relative who died? You'll see them again and be eternally happy. Plus, despite the fact god is omnipotent and omnipresent, there are still very bad deeds committed all over the world. I was taught at Sunday school that God was responsible for all the actions we do, shaping our decisions, and effectively controlling us. If that is the case, then why do people commit bad acts? Why are there hundreds of different faiths? Why did he need to send down his son to forgive us of our sins, if it was he who made us commit them?
And another thing that confuses me is that why is it that now, when media is worldwide, and any piece of spectacular news will be seen be huge portions of the globe, that god is not producing miracles. You know, the bible ones, like splitting the seas, feeding the hungry, turning water into wine? Now would be the ideal time to perform such a miracle, as it would undoubtedly convert millions into religious folk.
These are all incredibly classical and deep theological questions that Christians ought to wrestle with regularly. I know that I, at least, ask myself those questions fairly frequently, but they do have answers. Not absolute answers, but certainly answers, and certainly better answers than "GOD'S TESTING YOU LOL!" That answer is a bit of a sham. God DOES test us, of this I have no doubt, but I don't think that it's through the death of loved ones. In fact, I doubt that God needs to do anything to test us. We mess everything up well enough on our own. And then He uses those mess ups to teach us, as any great teacher does. IMO.
I don't have too much time and so don't want to get into theological arguments, but I can tell you that there are at least dozens of extremely fantastic theologians who wrestled with these questions and wrote them down and published them. Which is right? Goodness if I know. I find that I agree with some conclusions and disagree with some conclusions of each individual author, but religion is a deeply intellectual and thoughtful aspect of life so reading them and their thoughts is incredibly helpful to my own religious faith. I'd recommend that, if you're ever interested in REAL answers to those questions you have, you read some good old fashioned theologians, because there really is fantastic thought out there.
I'm sorry for your loss, though. Have a friend going through the same thing right now. Family members dropping like flies. He doesn't show it much but you can tell that it eats at his soul and his faith, and our group has to be all the more loving to help him get by.
PS. Keep this stuff civil, guys. Whatever your thoughts on religion, it's an extremely important to billions of people and a sensitive topic in the modern world. The moment you deride anothers' thoughts or statements as below yours is the moment your thoughts or statements sink below the rest. We all think differently. None of us has to be wrong.
These are all incredibly classical and deep theological questions that Christians ought to wrestle with regularly. I know that I, at least, ask myself those questions fairly frequently, but they do have answers. Not absolute answers, but certainly answers, and certainly better answers than "GOD'S TESTING YOU LOL!" That answer is a bit of a sham. God DOES test us, of this I have no doubt, but I don't think that it's through the death of loved ones. In fact, I doubt that God needs to do anything to test us. We mess everything up well enough on our own. And then He uses those mess ups to teach us, as any great teacher does. IMO.
So... our natural living as a human being is already an obstacle course for us that we will fail eventually, which also needs no extra interference or setup; but when we get back on our feet it's not on our own, but it's thanks to the omnipotent one's teachings, am I correct? Or, is it more like, we fall and we recover, and someone is watching us, and I should be thankful for, like, no interference whatsoever? I'm sorry, I'm just kind of confused by that string of logic.
I used to be religious. But then my family underwent a series of crises. First my dad died (eleven years ago today, in fact 11 years and 42 minutes at the time of writing), with no previous symptoms or anything. Then a few months later, my nan died. Then, a month or so after that, my auntie. And then a few months later, my gran. After that, I thought what was the point? If god is all powerful, then why did he decide to make our family go through these hardships? We'd never hurt anyone before. The religious folk amongst you would argue that it's gods way of testing our faith (I used a similair arguement in my Religion exam a few years back. I got an A* overall in it), but If a god needs to kill people and completely ruin peoples lives just to make sure they praise him, I don't want anything to do with him. We still feel the effects of those times. I can't help but think how much better my life would have been had I grown up with a father.
After that I underwent a few realisations. Like the fact that all religion seems to be for is to help comfort people as they go through life. That person who's bullying you? They'll be in eternal pain soon enough. That loved relative who died? You'll see them again and be eternally happy. Plus, despite the fact god is omnipotent and omnipresent, there are still very bad deeds committed all over the world. I was taught at Sunday school that God was responsible for all the actions we do, shaping our decisions, and effectively controlling us. If that is the case, then why do people commit bad acts? Why are there hundreds of different faiths? Why did he need to send down his son to forgive us of our sins, if it was he who made us commit them?
And another thing that confuses me is that why is it that now, when media is worldwide, and any piece of spectacular news will be seen be huge portions of the globe, that god is not producing miracles. You know, the bible ones, like splitting the seas, feeding the hungry, turning water into wine? Now would be the ideal time to perform such a miracle, as it would undoubtedly convert millions into religious folk.
I realise all my reasons are mainly directed at christianity (as that is the religion I have most experience with, being a former christian), but I feel most of the arguments could be adapted to other religions.
I personally think faith can be a good thing. It helps bring people together in the community, but I couldn't be apart of it again.
My gran has cancer and I have the same feelings as you about God and religion.
These are all incredibly classical and deep theological questions that Christians ought to wrestle with regularly. I know that I, at least, ask myself those questions fairly frequently, but they do have answers. Not absolute answers, but certainly answers, and certainly better answers than "GOD'S TESTING YOU LOL!" That answer is a bit of a sham. God DOES test us, of this I have no doubt, but I don't think that it's through the death of loved ones. In fact, I doubt that God needs to do anything to test us. We mess everything up well enough on our own. And then He uses those mess ups to teach us, as any great teacher does. IMO.
I don't have too much time and so don't want to get into theological arguments, but I can tell you that there are at least dozens of extremely fantastic theologians who wrestled with these questions and wrote them down and published them. Which is right? Goodness if I know. I find that I agree with some conclusions and disagree with some conclusions of each individual author, but religion is a deeply intellectual and thoughtful aspect of life so reading them and their thoughts is incredibly helpful to my own religious faith. I'd recommend that, if you're ever interested in REAL answers to those questions you have, you read some good old fashioned theologians, because there really is fantastic thought out there.
I'm sorry for your loss, though. Have a friend going through the same thing right now. Family members dropping like flies. He doesn't show it much but you can tell that it eats at his soul and his faith, and our group has to be all the more loving to help him get by.
PS. Keep this stuff civil, guys. Whatever your thoughts on religion, it's an extremely important to billions of people and a sensitive topic in the modern world. The moment you deride anothers' thoughts or statements as below yours is the moment your thoughts or statements sink below the rest. We all think differently. None of us has to be wrong.
I have a friend who will be studying to be a theologian at university next year (how that works I have no idea.). I think there probably was a time when I would have been open to fresh ideas and explanations about religion, but my mind has kind of cemented itself. I like having a factual based view of the universe. Believing that once something dies it's gone forever. Their soul (well, what they were) ceases to exist. It dies with the brain. It's quite sobering actually, You learn to cherish life more, whilst at the same time gaining a bigger picture of what humanity is. No more special than any other organism.
Look. Don't be Atheist because God couldn't let the world be this bad. It's really just nonsense. If that's the only reason you don't believe, you need to spend some time with yourself. I was raised Catholic, but when I grew and became more independent, I converted(?) to Atheism. Not because I was a depressed teen, or because I thought the world was shit, but just because I couldn't see a god being possible. I saw god as
Santa Claus
. (Kiddies, don't click the spoilers.)
People ask me why I don't believe when I'll go to hell if I'm wrong. You can't make yourself believe something you don't.
My sisters are seriously concerned that I live my life in anarchy because I have no moral code to follow. But I do. My own. And I consider myself one of the more courteous people in the country.
Practice your religion. Do whatever you want. Just don't try to tell others they're wrong until you have some serious proof; i.e. a handwritten note from god.
My gran has cancer and I have the same feelings as you about God and religion.
I was wondering if you knew someone who had cancer when you commented there were more cancer jokes than you could remember. One of my grandmas died from cancer (the other died from some brain stuff I think. I'm not really sure). I hope yours will survive it.
I was raised in a non-religious household, and I sincerely don't know most of my my family's beliefs, nor do I care. In school, I never knew if my friends believed in God or not, with a few exceptions (a very vocal Christian talking about God all the time for instance), and honestly to this day I don't understand why it's a big deal in the US.
I did know when some of them where Jewish (no pork at lunch) or Muslim (no pork at lunch + Ramadan) but even that didn't mean anything as to whether they believed or not, as for some of them it was just a tradition thing (like many Catholics in France who don't eat meat on Friday and don't work on Sunday yet don't believe in God).
So I would say to an extent, I would take the questions "do you follow a religion?" and "do you believe in God?" to be different, as I know people with a religion who don't believe and people who believe but are outside of any religion.
When I grew older and started talking about this kind of stuff out of curiosity, I noticed most of my friends, no matter their religion or lack thereof, did not believe in God. I don't know if that's representative of anything but the fact that people who get along might be more likely to have similar views?
I personally don't fully understand why you would follow the customs of a religion if you don't believe in it, but I guess for some people it might add some rules and stability, and this kind of things (what they eat, when they eat) don't really hurt anyone (well, not eating can hurt, but the Ramadan has pretty strict rules about not following it if you are sick, pregnant or lactating, having your period and a bunch of other things, in order to make sure you don't endanger your health. And Christian-type fasting is about not eating specific foods but you still eat the rest so it's not dangerous for your health).
Really, I'm in the camp of "I really don't care what you believe in, just don't try and make me believe it too and I won't stop you from believing it". I draw the line when I believe your beliefs lead to actions that hurt others, and even in that case I'm fine with your beliefs as long as you refrain from the actions (So, believe X group is evil all you want but let them be, for instance).
So... our natural living as a human being is already an obstacle course for us that we will fail eventually, which also needs no extra interference or setup; but when we get back on our feet it's not on our own, but it's thanks to the omnipotent one's teachings, am I correct? Or, is it more like, we fall and we recover, and someone is watching us, and I should be thankful for, like, no interference whatsoever? I'm sorry, I'm just kind of confused by that string of logic.
Well, the best I can do is present you with my current musings and thoughts.
I'm not quite sure of what 'natural' means to most people. As far as I can tell, human beings have largely created their own nature and that's rather messed up, and the world's nature is quite terrible all on its own.
Regardless, no, I don't think that the human species was essentially damned to fail from the start. But, regardless of whether or not you believe in the genesis story, it's pretty clear that people mess up throughout their lives. We make mistakes. We can atone for them, we can grow out of them. But we screw up.
And even if we don't we have the weight of our ancestors' screw ups on our shoulders. We have to deal with the ramifications of our ancestors' actions and learn from them and grow, and our great-grandchildren will have to deal with the ramifications of our own actions. That's not some religious belief, it's reality. Whatever view we have of the individual and justice, we have to deal with humanity's past and its present and its future all at once, and we're going to mess up. I can guarantee that you've made bad decisions and will continue to and I can certainly tell you that I make bad decisions. We all do. So, you're right, it doesn't need extra interference or set-up. We're already all messing each other up. We're already screwing our children over.
And of course it's not just because of God's teachings that we recover from mistakes. I'd say that God's teachings are certainly a piece of the puzzle whether or not we can recognize them, but I'd also say that God clearly values free will (to the point that he would screw himself over so we could keep it) and that we are at least partially responsible for our own actions.
Those around us also have some responsibility for our actions. Perhaps it's not ultimate responsibility, but it's partial. We make our own decisions, but we are shaped by the world we're in and the people we're with and the bad and good stuff that happens to us.
Because I could talk forever, let me stop myself there with a decent amount of thought and conclude: I don't think that this is a black and white matter as your question suggests to me. I think it's much more grey than that and that much of its beauty is in that grey.
Musings. Not absolute answers. None of us have those. Certainly not us religious folk, at least.
I'm Roman Catholic myself, as is most of my mom's side of the family, and we're pretty laid back about the religious thing (I pretty much function on the principle that if you're a good person, you're cool in my book).
I'm Roman Catholic myself, as is most of my mom's side of the family, and we're pretty laid back about the religious thing (I pretty much function on the principle that if you're a good person, you're cool in my book).
I think there's a wee misconception amongst some folks thar Catholics are particularly observant
I was born into a Catholic family but I don't follow it. I'm not really big on religion but it's mostly because I'm very open minded. A part of me says, A God does not exist while the other part of me says a God could very well exist.
But I'm not the one to go to church every sunday for something I think may or may not be real. However, I have respect for religions. If you belive in a God and want to go to church then by all means do so.
In a nutshell, I believe that God created the universe and that he did so mostly through scientifically explainable means; that nature is too complex, variant and beautiful to come from random chance; that I see things in my life and in the lives of others around me that can only be explained by saying that God is actively at work in our lives; that I'm unworthy of His glory; that God has given me mercy from my deserved fate through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ; and that His Holy Spirit lives in me, speaks to me, and speaks through me to reach others for Him.
Also, Christianity is not about religion. It's not about rules and regulations and such. It's about having a personal relationship with God the Father, and accepting His mercy through acknowledging the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ. It's about trusting that He knows what is best for me and that I follow through in obeying what His will is for my life. He is my Father, not just some God out there somewhere.
I know I've been chastized for saying that, through prayer, I've talked with Him and He talks to me but it really is true. Also, by prayer I mean just talking to Him either verbally or in my mind; it doesn't require bowing heads and folding hands nor using specific words.
I chose other. I do believe in God. I do believe He watches over us. However, I'm not really religious. I dont go to church unless it's Christmas, I dont read the Bible, though I have read it in high school (Catholic school) and I pray only when I really need to, such as a life threatening situation.
One thing I do wonder about, is why the Christians who believe in hell do not seem all that bothered about the thought of me going there. Occasionally, they will try to convert me to Christianity, but surely if you truly believed I was going to suffer for eternity, you would do much much more to save me?
I mean, if I knew that there was a bomb on a plane, I would do all I freaking could to make sure nobody got on that plane. Even if it meant coming across as a bit of a git for half an hour.
And yet, eternal suffering, which is much worse than just a bomb, doesn't seem to get much reaction at all.
One thing I do wonder about, is why the Christians who believe in hell do not seem all that bothered about the thought of me going there. Occasionally, they will try to convert me to Christianity, but surely if you truly believed I was going to suffer for eternity, you would do much much more to save me?
I mean, if I knew that there was a bomb on a plane, I would do all I freaking could to make sure nobody got on that plane. Even if it meant coming across as a bit of a git for half an hour.
And yet, eternal suffering, which is much worse than just a bomb, doesn't seem to get much reaction at all.
I'd love to hear from Christians why this is.
This is a very good point, and there are a number of explanations for this.
Firstly, many Christians are pained by the fact that their loved ones are going to meet such a fate. But, of course, this fate seems like something very far off, in the distant future. And humans are accustomed to dealing with imminent threats (such as bombs on planes), and not so good at dealing with threats that are far off ahead of us (such as runaway climate change), whether they're Christians or not.
Another thing - there are those who try to convince people that they're supposedly going to "burn forever in hell." But, how often are these warnings truly successful? How often do they make an impact? The biggest way for a Christian to reach out to people and try to save/convert them is through their way of living; letting it be known that they are a Christian, and then living in such a way that makes the Christian lifestyle seem appealing to others.
I don't know if I've answered your query directly. I'll try to give a more effective answer later (when I have a greater level of consciousness and energy), if needed.
Saturday, Ally, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit don't fucking roll! Shomer shabbos!
Saturday, Ally, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit don't fucking roll! Shomer shabbos!
Will you come of it, Pants? You aren't even Jewish, man!
One thing I do wonder about, is why the Christians who believe in hell do not seem all that bothered about the thought of me going there.
I know a LOT of Christians who don't believe that not being Christian causes you to go to hell. Rather, they believe it's decided through your actions. If you're a good person, Christian or not, you go to heaven. If you're not, you go to the purgatory until you've understood your mistakes, or something.
Personally, I have a harder time understanding the idea that someone can be good all their lives and yet go to hell because they picked the wrong religion or didn't believe in God, and some other can be a terrible person but it's fine as long as they're Christian and they say "sorry" before they die. It seems to me if there is a God, wouldn't it matter more to him that people are trying to do the right thing, rather than worship him in the right way?
And as I said, many Christians I know agree with me on that, so no need to convert anyone as long as they're being good.
How is it that threads like this always become a debate? People in general, need to get over their selves. Any one is entitled to believe whatever the hell they want to. There's like 12 or more theories of the universe alone... You live inside of like, one.(conceptionally and figuratively)..and that's all you learn about in a normal education...
It's a silly child like argument that is just another mirroring example of how simple a animal we really are.
I really think that ego is a social condition and that everyone has such a large ego that they can't reserve their opinions they have to argue and fight, mock belief systems...The burden of proof doesn't rest on faith and like wise those of faith aren't searching for ultimate proof...so, it's a silly, silly argument. As those who believe in science can take to that, do whatever the hell they want, and figure it all out with science if they want to. Those with faith can do whatever the hell they want to and stay to their faith without being argued with by science...
It's apples to oranges, could it be any more understated than its already apparent reality? I mean seriously, can people not judge, observe right what's in front of your face?
It's just another way to pick up sticks and stones and swing back and forth at one another like chimps in heat...
It's so crystal clear, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how people can be different and to realize they are structured by their own beliefs and that trying to argue something they're not structured in is just trying to switch gears inside of a water melon...:D
Blah blah, their ignorance bothers me, blah blah, it's insulting, annoying, I can change or challenge their beliefs. That's not the point of faith and having a religious foundation...
It's like if I shoot my foot off with a gun, I'll notice I'm in pain before or after my shock. But something like this, so crystal clear, we argue for centuries! CENTURIES! And it's right in your face! So obvious, and the world is such a better, happier place, if we got over our selves and said, well they believe what they want to...
Maybe science will figure it out one day, but arguing religion is silly, and nothing more than a very easy place to help build onto your ego.
Not every one is a scientist and not all beliefs are scientific, yet so many people argue things with science....some things aren't explained yet. God is not disproven...
I don't even know what the mental issue is of scientist who try to prove or disprove religion with science is...It's not like we're talking about santa clause here and in the end we're just coming up with a theory....or faith. What's so different about a theory you believe in or faith?
Any one can be wrong...even if scientific theory is backed by science logic.
Slamming some one else's religious beliefs, disagreeing with some one else's does not qualify as your own religious beliefs...all there is, is faith....
Define "being good." The primary basis behind Christianity is Christ's sacrifice for our sins against the Father. He set Himself as a sacrifice for us so that we would not have to spend eternity apart from God after we die. The concept that "being good" can, in and of itself, make you right with God makes Christ's sacrifice completely unnecessary.
As is written in Ephesians, chapter 2 verses 1-10:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I know a LOT of Christians who don't believe that not being Christian causes you to go to hell. Rather, they believe it's decided through your actions. If you're a good person, Christian or not, you go to heaven. If you're not, you go to the purgatory until you've understood your mistakes, or something.
Personally, I have a harder time understanding the idea that someone can be good all their lives and yet go to hell because they picked the wrong religion or didn't believe in God, and some other can be a terrible person but it's fine as long as they're Christian and they say "sorry" before they die. It seems to me if there is a God, wouldn't it matter more to him that people are trying to do the right thing, rather than worship him in the right way?
And as I said, many Christians I know agree with me on that, so no need to convert anyone as long as they're being good.
Just to clarify on the second point, about being a hypocrite, Jesus does say about people claiming to be Christian that
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
I do believe that deathbed conversion can occur,but I think it's more than a cursory claim of "I'm sorry". I think genuine conversion is a product of a lifetime of change concerning the subject.
I don't believe in an dismissal to hell because someone does not believe in Christ, per say. I think lots of people in this world are going to live lives that are hard and difficult and just try to do their best, and that they are going to live their lives as well as they can according their conditions, which is why Paul says
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
And also why Jesus otherwise makes a reference to not being judged for what you don't know, but what you know.
tl;dr Only God knows who goes to Heaven or Hell, people who make arbitrary claims to be Christian don't necessarily go there, and people who aren't Christians can (IN MY OPINION)
Final example. I was a youth minister for a while (never claimed to be a good one) but I tried my best. I worked alongside a youth pastor, younger than me, but a decent guy I thought. I got really suspicious of him over time, reported him, and got kicked out because they thought I was trying to steal the position.
A year later he was convicted of murdering a girl and her baby. The girl was underage and a youth of his, turns out he'd been sleeping with her on the side. So now he's on death row.
Do I think he'll go to Heaven? Probably not, but I don't know what God will do with him between now and his death. Not my place.
If I compare that guy against my ex's dad, who was an atheist. My ex's dad had no reason to lend me his car. Did it anyway, was about a month or two after me and his daughter had split, had never known the guy much. Anyway, I left a check at his house to compensate for the car. A week later I get a letter in the mail with the check. Letter says People should never give with the intention of receiving back.
I couldn't think of something more godly than that sort of sentiment.
Comments
Here's what I believe. I believe that there is a truth out there and that picking and choosing something I want to be true that suits my way of living is only fooling myself. I don't believe that (and I'm not saying this pompously) "whatever is good for you is the way to go." If I believed that I'd be on a very different road and I'd be very unhappy. I don't believe people really know what they want because what they think they want leads them to ruin. I believe that I can be wrong and that I most likely am wrong somewhere in my beliefs, but I believe what I believe based on experiences I've had in my life and I continue to do so. I constantly question my own beliefs and search for the truth. There is only one truth and I'm not going to pretend I know what all of it is because I'm not God.
I don't subscribe to the "faith alone" standpoint. That is, I don't believe what I believe just for the sake of believing in something to make me happy and get me through life. I don't want to believe that what I know is the truth. I want to know what the truth is so that I can believe it.
Sigh...if you would have read my entire post, you would have seen that i was speaking of a specificSwedish organisation, called the "Humanists". I even mentioned their campaign in the Swedish subway: http://www.humanisterna.se/
Obviously there are different views amongst people who call themselves "humanists".
And just because you call yourself agnostic, that dosen't mean you believe in God.
Nope.
I read your post, thanks.
"Secular Humanism, alternatively known as Humanism (often with a capital H to distinguish it from other forms of humanism)..."
It's the same kind of Humanism. They have the same manifesto and even the same symbol. Perhaps you should actually look into what they do. I don't even know Swedish and I found it almost instantaneously.
I also looked up the subway campaign. It was to reach out to others who felt the same way. It's the same way of any other advocacy group would reach out for people. I'm not entirely sure why you're singling them out. The signs don't just say "God doesn't exist" but rather the approximation of "God probably doesn't exist: but still he affects you. Less than 20 percent of Swedes are religious. Yet God is holy in our country. We in the humanist movement think it is worth considering. There are many examples of how religion affects our lives - not only for believers but also for the seven million other people in Sweden. How religious are you? Do our webtest!".
It doesn't even insist that there is no God period.
What if there's more than one deity? Honestly, that'd make a lot more sense than an omnipresent being who's supposed to be just AND merciful, you know what im sayin?
Nope.
It makes perfect sense to me that God created space and time itself, and therefore does not need to be constrained by the limitations of His own creation. It also makes perfect sense to me to admit that He is holy and righteous and that I, by comparison am weak, prideful, self-indulgent, sinful, disobedient, undeserving and whatever else. Suffice it to say that I'm in no way worthy of Him and I quite simply deserve to be destroyed, and there is nothing I could possibly do of my own merit to ever be considered as worthy of being in the presence of such a perfect being as Him. Further, it makes sense to say that the perfect and ultimate sacrifice has been made in my stead, and if I accept said sacrifice I can then be saved from my deserved destruction.
What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that the complexity, intricacy, beauty and balance of the universe could possibly exist merely by random chance; nor that if a being were to spend as much time and effort into developing the universe into what it is, that such a being would have no vested interest in its outcome.
It seems that the burden has fallen to me to debate this. I realize I'm going to really piss some people off when I say this, but frankly your insistence that there is a god who gives a fuck and is all able offends me a bit (and you shall see why momentarily) so I suppose we're even. I do beg the mods to allow this to stay up, as I am voicing my opinion and as this is a thread on religion, I have every right to do so... unless you intend to bring out the censorship.
Now, allow me to begin;
How does this make any sense when weighed against even the most basic scientific understanding of how the universe was created? Why does there *need* to be a god? Why would you willingly set yourself at such a low station? You are the product of billions of years of fortuitous evolution - this we can prove. Let no minister or pastor tell you otherwise.
This, frankly, sounds very strange. It sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship would say. If god cared enough to send Jesus down, or whatever; why the hell would he make people such loathsome vermin, as you claim we are? Your logic is flawed.
...Or it could just be that we perceive the universe as complex because we haven't been exposed to anything more complicated. That makes so much more sense, don't you think? You're making a lot of logical leaps based upon nothing. Frankly, it is frightening to see you put yourself down so much. If this is what fervent religion does to its adherents' mindsets then I am certainly glad to have escaped its poisonous grasp.
If god cared, would he really make you hate yourself? Would he have created people like me, who are disabled? Would he allow what has happened to Africa and the Middle East to go unchecked?
Doesn't it make more sense to think there's no such thing as a judgmental prick in the sky who hates you?
Get help.
The reason for this is the fact that Western civilization is very strongly connected with Abrahamic religion. Since the tenets of these faiths hold that god is a male, that is what god is referred to as. Furthermore, in the English language; the proper term (before the advent of political correctness) for a subject of ambiguous gender is 'he.'
I agree with you, though; that on the off chance there were such a deity or force that we might call god, he would likely be genderless and completely unrecognizable or comprehendable to the human mind. Furthermore, said deity would likely worry (if it possessed conscious thoughts) about far more important things than just the individual lives of the inhabitants of one small planet orbiting a sub average star in an average galaxy and would therefore just leave us alone.
Let's ignore the fact that he killed or ordered to kill at the very least 2,476,636 people oft because they didn't submit to his vain desires or tormented people like Lot for some sick betting game with Satan for a moment, okay? Let's ignore all of that and pretend that never happened.
God is all good and all powerful. This doesn't match up. If he were all good and powerful, he wouldn't let specific groups of people around the world successful and other groups in a constant state of suffering. I'm not talking about heathen folks either, I'm talking about Christians in sub-Saharan Africa. These predominantly Christian African countries are suffering with the lowest life expectancy rates in the world. Why does he refuse to help them? He could save all of them by merely expending a fraction of a drop of his power, and yet he doesn't. AIDS ravages through southern Africa and makes some the average life spans merely 30 in extreme parts. Even if they weren't predominantly Christian, why wouldn't he help his supposed Child? That's like a father having two sons. One likes sports, the other doesn't. He's upset that this child dislikes sports, so he helps his sports-loving son get through college while kicking his other child on the streets to fend for himself. Except instead of sports, it's worshiping him.
This gets even worse when you consider the fact that this God is supposedly omnipresent and omniscient. So before, he could have just been ignorant, you know, whatever, but he's supposedly there and KNOWS what's going to happen all throughout time. If I recall correctly, more and more theologians are coming to the conclusion that the bible actually refers to multiple deities and that monotheism was tacked on much later.
I'm going to be perfectly honest, you sound like a sub in a BDSM dungeon. Why anyone would want to worship a supposedly omni-benevolent deity that claims to have made you from his image while still wanting you to feel like a worthless piece of shit if you don't feed his ego is beyond me.
Not to mention that you seem like a really nice dude and you're saying that you're a horrible person in comparison to a grumpy god who is vain, wrathful, unforgiving, picky, racist, misogynistic, masochistic, and hypocritical. Even if I knew for a fact that this god was real, I would never worship him. Damn me to hell for eternity, but I have my morals and this guy does not follow them.
I probably wouldn't have responded to this post if you hadn't described yourself in such a downtrodden manner. I urge you to at least don't think yourself as scum.
Again, just because you don't understand how something works doesn't automatically mean something supernatural made it happen. Personally, I think it's exciting and exhilarating to know that I and everything around me is the product can be learned and known. I would never know how these things are if I just defaulted to "This is pretty! Thanks, God!"
Shouting, insulting and cursing isn't a logical application of your reasoning faculties.
After that I underwent a few realisations. Like the fact that all religion seems to be for is to help comfort people as they go through life. That person who's bullying you? They'll be in eternal pain soon enough. That loved relative who died? You'll see them again and be eternally happy. Plus, despite the fact god is omnipotent and omnipresent, there are still very bad deeds committed all over the world. I was taught at Sunday school that God was responsible for all the actions we do, shaping our decisions, and effectively controlling us. If that is the case, then why do people commit bad acts? Why are there hundreds of different faiths? Why did he need to send down his son to forgive us of our sins, if it was he who made us commit them?
And another thing that confuses me is that why is it that now, when media is worldwide, and any piece of spectacular news will be seen be huge portions of the globe, that god is not producing miracles. You know, the bible ones, like splitting the seas, feeding the hungry, turning water into wine? Now would be the ideal time to perform such a miracle, as it would undoubtedly convert millions into religious folk.
I realise all my reasons are mainly directed at christianity (as that is the religion I have most experience with, being a former christian), but I feel most of the arguments could be adapted to other religions.
I personally think faith can be a good thing. It helps bring people together in the community, but I couldn't be apart of it again.
These are all incredibly classical and deep theological questions that Christians ought to wrestle with regularly. I know that I, at least, ask myself those questions fairly frequently, but they do have answers. Not absolute answers, but certainly answers, and certainly better answers than "GOD'S TESTING YOU LOL!" That answer is a bit of a sham. God DOES test us, of this I have no doubt, but I don't think that it's through the death of loved ones. In fact, I doubt that God needs to do anything to test us. We mess everything up well enough on our own. And then He uses those mess ups to teach us, as any great teacher does. IMO.
I don't have too much time and so don't want to get into theological arguments, but I can tell you that there are at least dozens of extremely fantastic theologians who wrestled with these questions and wrote them down and published them. Which is right? Goodness if I know. I find that I agree with some conclusions and disagree with some conclusions of each individual author, but religion is a deeply intellectual and thoughtful aspect of life so reading them and their thoughts is incredibly helpful to my own religious faith. I'd recommend that, if you're ever interested in REAL answers to those questions you have, you read some good old fashioned theologians, because there really is fantastic thought out there.
I'm sorry for your loss, though. Have a friend going through the same thing right now. Family members dropping like flies. He doesn't show it much but you can tell that it eats at his soul and his faith, and our group has to be all the more loving to help him get by.
PS. Keep this stuff civil, guys. Whatever your thoughts on religion, it's an extremely important to billions of people and a sensitive topic in the modern world. The moment you deride anothers' thoughts or statements as below yours is the moment your thoughts or statements sink below the rest. We all think differently. None of us has to be wrong.
So... our natural living as a human being is already an obstacle course for us that we will fail eventually, which also needs no extra interference or setup; but when we get back on our feet it's not on our own, but it's thanks to the omnipotent one's teachings, am I correct? Or, is it more like, we fall and we recover, and someone is watching us, and I should be thankful for, like, no interference whatsoever? I'm sorry, I'm just kind of confused by that string of logic.
My gran has cancer and I have the same feelings as you about God and religion.
I have a friend who will be studying to be a theologian at university next year (how that works I have no idea.). I think there probably was a time when I would have been open to fresh ideas and explanations about religion, but my mind has kind of cemented itself. I like having a factual based view of the universe. Believing that once something dies it's gone forever. Their soul (well, what they were) ceases to exist. It dies with the brain. It's quite sobering actually, You learn to cherish life more, whilst at the same time gaining a bigger picture of what humanity is. No more special than any other organism.
People ask me why I don't believe when I'll go to hell if I'm wrong. You can't make yourself believe something you don't.
My sisters are seriously concerned that I live my life in anarchy because I have no moral code to follow. But I do. My own. And I consider myself one of the more courteous people in the country.
Practice your religion. Do whatever you want. Just don't try to tell others they're wrong until you have some serious proof; i.e. a handwritten note from god.
I was wondering if you knew someone who had cancer when you commented there were more cancer jokes than you could remember. One of my grandmas died from cancer (the other died from some brain stuff I think. I'm not really sure). I hope yours will survive it.
I was raised in a non-religious household, and I sincerely don't know most of my my family's beliefs, nor do I care. In school, I never knew if my friends believed in God or not, with a few exceptions (a very vocal Christian talking about God all the time for instance), and honestly to this day I don't understand why it's a big deal in the US.
I did know when some of them where Jewish (no pork at lunch) or Muslim (no pork at lunch + Ramadan) but even that didn't mean anything as to whether they believed or not, as for some of them it was just a tradition thing (like many Catholics in France who don't eat meat on Friday and don't work on Sunday yet don't believe in God).
So I would say to an extent, I would take the questions "do you follow a religion?" and "do you believe in God?" to be different, as I know people with a religion who don't believe and people who believe but are outside of any religion.
When I grew older and started talking about this kind of stuff out of curiosity, I noticed most of my friends, no matter their religion or lack thereof, did not believe in God. I don't know if that's representative of anything but the fact that people who get along might be more likely to have similar views?
I personally don't fully understand why you would follow the customs of a religion if you don't believe in it, but I guess for some people it might add some rules and stability, and this kind of things (what they eat, when they eat) don't really hurt anyone (well, not eating can hurt, but the Ramadan has pretty strict rules about not following it if you are sick, pregnant or lactating, having your period and a bunch of other things, in order to make sure you don't endanger your health. And Christian-type fasting is about not eating specific foods but you still eat the rest so it's not dangerous for your health).
Really, I'm in the camp of "I really don't care what you believe in, just don't try and make me believe it too and I won't stop you from believing it". I draw the line when I believe your beliefs lead to actions that hurt others, and even in that case I'm fine with your beliefs as long as you refrain from the actions (So, believe X group is evil all you want but let them be, for instance).
Well, the best I can do is present you with my current musings and thoughts.
I'm not quite sure of what 'natural' means to most people. As far as I can tell, human beings have largely created their own nature and that's rather messed up, and the world's nature is quite terrible all on its own.
Regardless, no, I don't think that the human species was essentially damned to fail from the start. But, regardless of whether or not you believe in the genesis story, it's pretty clear that people mess up throughout their lives. We make mistakes. We can atone for them, we can grow out of them. But we screw up.
And even if we don't we have the weight of our ancestors' screw ups on our shoulders. We have to deal with the ramifications of our ancestors' actions and learn from them and grow, and our great-grandchildren will have to deal with the ramifications of our own actions. That's not some religious belief, it's reality. Whatever view we have of the individual and justice, we have to deal with humanity's past and its present and its future all at once, and we're going to mess up. I can guarantee that you've made bad decisions and will continue to and I can certainly tell you that I make bad decisions. We all do. So, you're right, it doesn't need extra interference or set-up. We're already all messing each other up. We're already screwing our children over.
And of course it's not just because of God's teachings that we recover from mistakes. I'd say that God's teachings are certainly a piece of the puzzle whether or not we can recognize them, but I'd also say that God clearly values free will (to the point that he would screw himself over so we could keep it) and that we are at least partially responsible for our own actions.
Those around us also have some responsibility for our actions. Perhaps it's not ultimate responsibility, but it's partial. We make our own decisions, but we are shaped by the world we're in and the people we're with and the bad and good stuff that happens to us.
Because I could talk forever, let me stop myself there with a decent amount of thought and conclude: I don't think that this is a black and white matter as your question suggests to me. I think it's much more grey than that and that much of its beauty is in that grey.
Musings. Not absolute answers. None of us have those. Certainly not us religious folk, at least.
I think there's a wee misconception amongst some folks thar Catholics are particularly observant
But I'm not the one to go to church every sunday for something I think may or may not be real. However, I have respect for religions. If you belive in a God and want to go to church then by all means do so.
this
I know I've been chastized for saying that, through prayer, I've talked with Him and He talks to me but it really is true. Also, by prayer I mean just talking to Him either verbally or in my mind; it doesn't require bowing heads and folding hands nor using specific words.
I mean, if I knew that there was a bomb on a plane, I would do all I freaking could to make sure nobody got on that plane. Even if it meant coming across as a bit of a git for half an hour.
And yet, eternal suffering, which is much worse than just a bomb, doesn't seem to get much reaction at all.
I'd love to hear from Christians why this is.
What if it's an emergency?
This is a very good point, and there are a number of explanations for this.
Firstly, many Christians are pained by the fact that their loved ones are going to meet such a fate. But, of course, this fate seems like something very far off, in the distant future. And humans are accustomed to dealing with imminent threats (such as bombs on planes), and not so good at dealing with threats that are far off ahead of us (such as runaway climate change), whether they're Christians or not.
Another thing - there are those who try to convince people that they're supposedly going to "burn forever in hell." But, how often are these warnings truly successful? How often do they make an impact? The biggest way for a Christian to reach out to people and try to save/convert them is through their way of living; letting it be known that they are a Christian, and then living in such a way that makes the Christian lifestyle seem appealing to others.
I don't know if I've answered your query directly. I'll try to give a more effective answer later (when I have a greater level of consciousness and energy), if needed.
Saturday, Ally, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit don't fucking roll! Shomer shabbos!
Will you come of it, Pants? You aren't even Jewish, man!
No, I totally am! I go to synagogue and everything. It helps me like nothing else during 'nam could.
You're living in the past, man.
I know a LOT of Christians who don't believe that not being Christian causes you to go to hell. Rather, they believe it's decided through your actions. If you're a good person, Christian or not, you go to heaven. If you're not, you go to the purgatory until you've understood your mistakes, or something.
Personally, I have a harder time understanding the idea that someone can be good all their lives and yet go to hell because they picked the wrong religion or didn't believe in God, and some other can be a terrible person but it's fine as long as they're Christian and they say "sorry" before they die. It seems to me if there is a God, wouldn't it matter more to him that people are trying to do the right thing, rather than worship him in the right way?
And as I said, many Christians I know agree with me on that, so no need to convert anyone as long as they're being good.
It's a silly child like argument that is just another mirroring example of how simple a animal we really are.
I really think that ego is a social condition and that everyone has such a large ego that they can't reserve their opinions they have to argue and fight, mock belief systems...The burden of proof doesn't rest on faith and like wise those of faith aren't searching for ultimate proof...so, it's a silly, silly argument. As those who believe in science can take to that, do whatever the hell they want, and figure it all out with science if they want to. Those with faith can do whatever the hell they want to and stay to their faith without being argued with by science...
It's apples to oranges, could it be any more understated than its already apparent reality? I mean seriously, can people not judge, observe right what's in front of your face?
It's just another way to pick up sticks and stones and swing back and forth at one another like chimps in heat...
It's so crystal clear, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how people can be different and to realize they are structured by their own beliefs and that trying to argue something they're not structured in is just trying to switch gears inside of a water melon...:D
Blah blah, their ignorance bothers me, blah blah, it's insulting, annoying, I can change or challenge their beliefs. That's not the point of faith and having a religious foundation...
It's like if I shoot my foot off with a gun, I'll notice I'm in pain before or after my shock. But something like this, so crystal clear, we argue for centuries! CENTURIES! And it's right in your face! So obvious, and the world is such a better, happier place, if we got over our selves and said, well they believe what they want to...
Maybe science will figure it out one day, but arguing religion is silly, and nothing more than a very easy place to help build onto your ego.
Not every one is a scientist and not all beliefs are scientific, yet so many people argue things with science....some things aren't explained yet. God is not disproven...
I don't even know what the mental issue is of scientist who try to prove or disprove religion with science is...It's not like we're talking about santa clause here and in the end we're just coming up with a theory....or faith. What's so different about a theory you believe in or faith?
Any one can be wrong...even if scientific theory is backed by science logic.
Slamming some one else's religious beliefs, disagreeing with some one else's does not qualify as your own religious beliefs...all there is, is faith....
As is written in Ephesians, chapter 2 verses 1-10:
Just to clarify on the second point, about being a hypocrite, Jesus does say about people claiming to be Christian that
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
I do believe that deathbed conversion can occur,but I think it's more than a cursory claim of "I'm sorry". I think genuine conversion is a product of a lifetime of change concerning the subject.
I don't believe in an dismissal to hell because someone does not believe in Christ, per say. I think lots of people in this world are going to live lives that are hard and difficult and just try to do their best, and that they are going to live their lives as well as they can according their conditions, which is why Paul says
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
And also why Jesus otherwise makes a reference to not being judged for what you don't know, but what you know.
tl;dr Only God knows who goes to Heaven or Hell, people who make arbitrary claims to be Christian don't necessarily go there, and people who aren't Christians can (IN MY OPINION)
Final example. I was a youth minister for a while (never claimed to be a good one) but I tried my best. I worked alongside a youth pastor, younger than me, but a decent guy I thought. I got really suspicious of him over time, reported him, and got kicked out because they thought I was trying to steal the position.
A year later he was convicted of murdering a girl and her baby. The girl was underage and a youth of his, turns out he'd been sleeping with her on the side. So now he's on death row.
Do I think he'll go to Heaven? Probably not, but I don't know what God will do with him between now and his death. Not my place.
If I compare that guy against my ex's dad, who was an atheist. My ex's dad had no reason to lend me his car. Did it anyway, was about a month or two after me and his daughter had split, had never known the guy much. Anyway, I left a check at his house to compensate for the car. A week later I get a letter in the mail with the check. Letter says People should never give with the intention of receiving back.
I couldn't think of something more godly than that sort of sentiment.