Original Marty? *Spoiler Alert*
First of all, I enjoyed the game, I understand some fans prefer harder puzzles but having it easy so that every fan can play is acceptable reason for me. Having said this, on to real question now, sorry if this had been mentioned before.
As far as I know in BTTF universe, first, a time travel has to happen and then the changes take effect. For example in the 1st movie there's "Twin Pines Mall", Marty goes back, runs over one of the pines, and then mall becomes "Lone Pine Mall".
Now in the game I though it was the original Marty. But in the end 3 future Martys come to 1986. Isn't this an indication of we haven't been playing with original Marty? Because someone from the future travels to past.
I know in the first Movie Doc's future self comes back after he had visited future but in Marty's point of view, it doesn't make any difference, he is still the original Marty. But now, 3 future Martys coming back indicate that he is not the original in my opinion. What do you think?
As far as I know in BTTF universe, first, a time travel has to happen and then the changes take effect. For example in the 1st movie there's "Twin Pines Mall", Marty goes back, runs over one of the pines, and then mall becomes "Lone Pine Mall".
Now in the game I though it was the original Marty. But in the end 3 future Martys come to 1986. Isn't this an indication of we haven't been playing with original Marty? Because someone from the future travels to past.
I know in the first Movie Doc's future self comes back after he had visited future but in Marty's point of view, it doesn't make any difference, he is still the original Marty. But now, 3 future Martys coming back indicate that he is not the original in my opinion. What do you think?
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He says "bring him along" referring to his younger self, having this "who cares, he will be corrected since i am the original Marty" attitude.
It's like we have been playing with the 2nd Marty from the first Movie who has known the Mall as Lone Pine Mall for his entire life...
(I dunno, the ending is cool in a way but I didn't like it.)
I hope we get a resolution.
And if it could jump between time lines, than that compeltly negates the point of this entire season, since they just could have jumped back to thier own time.
marty's future isnt set yet.
the next game will have 3 endings depending how you did in the game
good, decent, and terrible evil.
Doc clearly says that when marty ask doc " whats going on?"
Explaining is hard when it comes to time travel since we don't know how it really works (or even possible like this) but what I am saying is the teen Marty we have been controlling for these 5 episodes may not be the Marty we have known from the movies.
In BTTF universe the one who makes the first trip is called the "Original" right? And no trip is made "before" him in our point of view. So if your future self comes to you, this means you are not the original one who made that very first trip. Because when time comes, you are supposed to follow his steps unless interrupted somehow.
Though it might indicate the next game having 3 different endings...but i dunno, BTTF is already filled with "alternates", having different endings is not suited for this kind of story in my opinion. It will lead to even more alternates...
Besides, what kind of cliffhanger would this be, if we already knew what was going on?
^^^This.
Anything is possible but my point is that we haven't been playing with original Marty. Because normally original person is the one who does the first travel. This time future Martys traveled back to the Marty which seemed to be the original at first.
Think about it, its always the original(older) one who can see the younger self, or can show himself to. Here, older ones come show theirselves to the younger one.
Or, original one doesn't get to see his future self unless he travels to the future. This time, the guy who seemed to be the original one met his future(older) selves without travelling to the future.
That's what Doc's reply to Marty means...Marty asks him "Who's the real me?" and Doc replies "Isn't it obvious?" I felt this means one of 2 things-either Doc meant to say that ALL of them are the 'real' Marty since they're ALL valid possible futures for him...or he meant to say that NONE of them are the 'real' Marty and the only 'real' Marty is the 1986 present-day Marty, because his past and his present are set in stone, but his future isn't written, and until he makes his own future through the natural course of time, all the other future Marty's represent only POSSIBLE futures...
I mean the "very first". In the first movie we have a Marty whose parents are losers. But in the end at the Mall when there are 2 Martys, this 2nd one going back to 1955 is a slightly different/new Marty whose parents are not losers. So the first one is the Original here. That 2nd Marty's life was actually got changed by this original one's actions.
Since this Marty in the game witnesses his future selves coming to him, he probably is not the first Marty. Because some of those future Martys might have changed this young one's life before. Just like that 2nd Marty from the movie thinks his parents were always decent, when in fact there was another Marty who influenced them.
Okay, I kinda get what you mean now, but it's still a bit vague.
The Marty in this game does appear to be the 'original Marty' from the first film, who grew up with the loser parents. He mentions growing up with a 'wimpy' father in Ep 5, and also mentions how, before he travelled back in time, his parents had an acrimonious relationship. This Marty is usually called the Twin Pines Marty (or TP Marty). However, I've always believed that the ripple effect would eventually catch up with Marty and give him the memories of his counter-part in the new timeline, namely the Lone Pine Marty (or LP Marty). Indeed, while Marty remembers his parents being losers, he does also consider LP George and Lorraine (the successful versions) as his true family now (he calls LP George 'normal Dad' at one point), so I think its possible he has memories of both timelines.
In any case, I don't see why he would cease to be the 'original' Marty because his future selves interact with him...they haven't changed his past...whereas TP Marty went back in time to 1955 and changed his past so that LP Marty had a different life from the one he had 'originally'...as far as we know, NONE of the future Marty's have tampered with the past prior to 1986...
I agree with you! That's my theory, as well.
Yes we don't know if they changed his past or not. But the problem is, who gets to do the traveling through time and meet another of his self? It's always the original, or in other words, the one who is prior to the one to be met. TPMarty gets to see LPMarty from afar and if TP wanted, he could meet LP by meeting him the day before.
The question is, can this happen the other way around? Can LP Marty surprise TP Marty by suddenly appearing behind and greeting him? I believe not, because LP has to follow TP in terms of time jumps so he can't surprise TP. It's TP who knows about LP, LP doesn't know about TP's existence (unless TP tells him).
So now in Ep5, we have future Martys coming and surprising/greeting a younger one. It's like those future ones are like TP, and the younger one is LP now. Future ones are prior to the one we have been playing because they know about this younger one's existence but the younger one would never know if they hadn't shown theirselves up to him.
Okay, I suppose what you mean is that Marty before a time-jump is always the 'original' Marty as compared to any Marty he may encounter once he makes a time-jump. Then again, I suppose it depends on perspective...
Future Marty considers himself the 'original' because, from his POV, he's from a timeline where he never met his future self face to face on May 15th 1986 (in other words, PRIOR to the time jump he's about to make)...whereas, his younger self, is now technically an alternate version the instant he makes the time jump, because the younger Marty's timeline has been subtly altered from what he (the future Marty) remembers it was...
However, from 1986 Marty's perspective, he's still the one and only 'original' Marty...future Marty is just his future self from a possible future...
Ofcourse every being will consider himself to be the original so younger one might think that, but in OUR POV i believe this is what's the case;
So I think the young Marty is not the original anymore. This doesn't necessarily mean one of those 3 future versions is the original. I just believe that if a future version travels back, he is original compared to that past version and now past version is somewhat altered.
Besides, if your talking about 'our' POV...well, 'our' POV is that of Marty's...Marty is the one character we follow throughout the movies and the game...we see timelines changing around him, we see alternate versions of other characters, and yet Marty always stays the same, and we basically follow his POV always...
So, from Marty's POV, he sees three future versions of himself suddenly popping up...WE see three future versions of Marty suddenly popping up to meet the protagonist we've been following all along...I find it hard to believe why, under the circumstances, would we view any of these future selves who've just made a brief appearance, as the 'original' Marty...
In BTTF, the timeline is not automatically complete, but gets created at a rate of one second per second (aka REAL time travel) Thus at the beginning of movie one, there is no year prerecorded on the timeline after 1985, though all the years before it still exist and can be visited. Traveling to the future is a completely different matter. By traveling to the future, you add on to the timeline however many years forward you went. There is no temporal divergence, you just simply disappear and reappear in the same spot. This makes the future exist, and allows people from the future to interact with the past, but that future is still part of the "Original Timeline" just at a later point.
The problem with Episode 5 is that we have Marties coming from a future that nobody has ever traveled to, so doesn't that contradict the rule that "the future isn't written yet"?
There are only two conclusions that can be made:
1. Our Marty is not from the original timeline, it is actually one of the future Marties.
2. Doc traveled to the future offscreen (either after Movie 1 or after Movie 3) and interacted with these future versions of Marty. We know he went to 2025 to get the second Delorean so this is plausible. He may have been preparing Future Marty to take his place as the next Doc, building him another Delorean and giving him free reign. Before Doc leaves this future, Future Marty would have had a window of opportunity to travel to 1986, and could have potentially had a number of adventures/mishaps that preceeded Episode 1 of the game.
What is the difference between a future marty visiting 1986 and 1985 Marty going back and visiting 1955 Doc? Why do you assume that Marty is always at the furthest point of the timeline? We already saw the future affect the past and present in part II.
The reason they all show up at that moment is because this is when Marty returns from 1931 so this is the earliest they can show up without preventing that trip.
There's a huge difference, actually. The main difference was that these future martys shouldn't exist yet because the future isn't written, did you even read my post? 1985 Marty going back to 1955 is fine because 1985 is the present, but 2015 is not the present so it makes no sense for a future traveler to be able to come back to 1986. (Unless someone from the present travels to 2015, as is the case when Old Biff goes back in time)
Why do you assume that the timeline is centered around 1985? It may be the present from Marty's POV (and our POV since we follow him)...but its really not the 'eternal' present. The 'present' is very much relative, as it always is...
From the POV of someone in 1955, 1985 is the future too, and the future is not written. And yet, people in 1955 interact with time travelers from 1985 and even 2015! However, while the time travelers may remember the futures they came from, once they're in the past, even from their POV, the future isn't written, and thus the futures they came from are not set in stone, and are subject to change, based on their actions...
In fact, the 3 Marty's situation can be compared to the situation in BTTF2. In the final timeline, we have several time travelers from the future on November 12th 1955, but they all come from different future timelines. BTTF1 Marty has come from the original Twin Pines 1985, Old Biff has come Lone Pine 2015, and BTTF2 Marty and Doc have come from Hell Valley 1985 (though they did not belong to it)...
I have a pretty insane theory actually. Remember in the second movie Doc says it's all in the past and Marty says "You mean the future". In reality the event take place in the future but the fact is it takes place in the past. Confusing a bit but bare with me.
My theory is a second timestream that's constantly equal to the first. However one someone travels through time it is no longer equal to the first.
Here is an example. It's October 26. Marty goes to November 5 1955. The second timestream is created. Marty spends a week in 1955. The first timestream is November 12. Marty goes back to the same day he left. The first timestream would be October 26 but the second timestream would be November 2.
Basically it is a separate timestream for time travelers. I call it real time lol. Imagine if you can reverse this timestream? That way it is possible to visit other timelines before they are overwritten. I think it's a good idea. All these other Marty's could be from alternate timelines pulled into this timeline.
This would also be a good idea if they want to do flashbacks. Like Spiderman Edge of Time when Spiderman dies at the start and it goes back before it happened but it's in the future and the subtitles say "Earlier... in the future".
I agree with this. Having alternate endings would be PERFECT for the series because Doc says Our future isn't written yet and it's what we make it become. So we will be given choices and we have to try to predict the results to get different endings.
I would also like to play as other Marty's for a bit to get a taste of where they're coming from.
When Doc goes back to 1885, Marty is stuck in 1955. When Doc writes the letter to Marty, Doc's actions then change the timeline and allow Marty to come to 1885. He might remember Twin Pines Mall, but he's not technically the same Marty.
The same does not apply to young Marty in the middle of BTTF2, because Biff's actions had not rippled through time enough to remove young Marty from that timeline by the time Marty and Doc had left.
Marty is the same Marty throughout the trilogy...he has to be because we follow events from HIS perspective. Now I believe that after the events of BTTF1, Marty eventually begins to gain new memories of his life with more successful parents-but he's still the same person we saw at the start of the movie...he just remembers another version of his past now, caused by his actions in 1955.
When Doc goes back to 1885, the timeline transforms AROUND Marty. The moment the Delorean disappears, Lone Pine 1955 'ripples' into Shonash 1955. Everyone else in 1955 'become' their counterparts in the new version of 1955-they now remember the ravine as having always been called Shonash Ravine. Marty however does not belong to 1955, and as such, is unaffected by the ripple effect...hence, he still remembers the ravine as being called Clayton Ravine. Had Marty returned to 1985 directly, instead of going back to save Doc, I believe that eventually, the ripple effect would have affected him and he would remember it being called Shonash Ravine.
I admit there's a bit of a grey area there.
If you go by what we see on screen, Marty returns to 1985, watches himself go back in time, goes home, wakes up the next morning to find his family completely different, meets Jennifer, is taken by Doc to 2015...and so on...with no apparent change.
Now I believe that Marty does gain memories of the new timeline...but does that mean he's no longer the 'original' Marty? Considering that he likely still remembers the original timeline (DEFINETLY, according to the game), and is physically the same entity who traveled back in time to 1955 initially...I don't see how he isn't the 'original'.
lol I was in a rush to get to school when I posted that.
I think the original Marty was gone after he returned because I believe every timeline change creates a new Marty. However the changes were not enough to make him completely different. But technically when he went to 1955 he slightly altered his timeline. Just slightly but still means he's not the original.
No big problem. I'm just getting deep on you lol.
We don't know if Marty 'remembers' new time lines or not; every time he shows up in an alternate timeline (Biffhoric one, tannen crime family, FCB) he seems to be completely out to lunch on what's going on. During the events of part III he's clearly remembered at least 2 timelines; one being the Biffhoric one- he references it once in 1885 and when he gets back to 1985 at the end he is clearly checking to see if everything is the same (remarks that his family is alright, takes an extra look at the window at Jennifers to see no bars).He obviously has to rememember at least one of the TP or LP timelines if not both.
Now it has been brought up that Doc being in 1885 without Marty did change the name of the ravine- Marty still remembers it being called Clayton ravine due to Clara going over the cliff (which does not happen in either timeline involving time travel to 1885. Doc alone agrees to meet her at the station so she's never out there and Doc saves her with Marty present. In the game, the 1885 time travels are erased during the FCB timeline hence it being Clayton ravine again).
I agree its never been explicitly confirmed that Marty has new memories-although it is implied by the very fact that Marty is able to live with the LP versions of George and Lorraine and consider them to be 'normal' (he refers to them as being their 'normal selves' in BTTF3, and calls LP George 'normal dad' in Episode 4 of the Game). But its true that he remembers timelines which have been erased, if he visited them.
As far as him being the original Marty goes...if you go by his personal chronology, he traveled from 1985 to 1955, then back to 1985, then onto 2015, then back to 1985, then back to 1955, then back to 1885, then forward to 1985, spends six months there into 1986, then back to 1931, returning to 1986, back to 1931 again, returning to 1986, back to 1931, back to 1876, back to 1931 and FINALLY back again in 1986!
In the process he has visited multiple timelines, many of them with events that no longer occurred but he remembers of them because they all happened to HIM...he has been experiancing his life continuously since before the first trip to 1955 right up till his final return to 1986, and recalls all the events of the films and Games.
Now Doc, I agree, isn't the original Doc as of the end of the Game...he's the Doc who is the product of Marty's trips to 1931. He wouldn't exist without time travel. But Marty existed before time travel was invented...and the same version of him exists now...
I'm not saying 1985 is the "eternal present". I'm saying that at the beginning of Movie 1, 1985 was the "actual present", but time still progresses at a normal rate of one second per second, so in a year 1986 will be the "actual present". This is a necessary view to take in light of the evidence, because Doc clearly states that nobody's futures are written yet. This means by definition there must be an actual present, because our pasts ARE written. This makes it possible for someone in 1955 to be visited by someone from "the future 1985", but explains why someone from 2015 could not come to 1985.
You're point about BTTF2 can also be explained with this logic. All the travelers from 1985 are fine because that is the "actual present". Old Biff going to 1955 is also excusable and I'll tell you why. When Doc/Marty/Jennifer went to 2015 they caused time to unfold as it naturally would have had no time travel occurred. This gives them a window into a hypothetical future that is very much real while they are there. While they are there it is a sort of pseudo-present, and people from that time period can affect the past. However, once that future was changed, nobody from that time period can come to the past because it doesn't exist anymore.
And again what basis do you have for saying the 1980's is the present at the time? Doc's basically saying that everyone has free will but free will does eventually materialize and become a part of hsitory. 2015 is obviously more than a hypothetical future. We see multiple objects from it end up in the past/present (the almanac, biffs cane, the paper) as well as the hover conversion on the DeLorean. Notice how doc remarks that up until Marty intervenes, everything seems to go down EXACTLY the same way it did his first time there. So like 1885, and 1955, 2015 also has its own timeline which gets skewed by events going down differently due to time travel and like 1985 has events changed due to the past timeline being changed; notice that the 'note' from 2015 about marty getting fired does not change until events occur preventing it. Likewise for the 2015 newspaper.
On your last point, that 2015 stopped existing once Biff went to 1955 yet we still see THAT Biff ending up in 1955 during the biffhoric timeline. Similar to how we see 'old doc' in 1931 even during the FCB timeline. It's the exact same scenario as how once the timeline was changed to the Biffhoric one, nobody from the previous 1985 timelines could effect the past except Doc, Marty or Jennifer who were exempt from th changes.
Agree with you completely.
Then again, the whole notion of time travel to the future in BTTF is certainly a bit more complex than it appears at first glance. While you're right that technically, 2015 is just like 1885, 1955 or 2015, somehow it IS difficult to view it as treating it the same way, because we do follow the movies from Marty's POV and for Marty, the 'future isn't written'.
You're right about free will eventually 'materializing', but that DOES raise some questions about WHEN (it meta-time) does that happen exactly.
For instance, consider this-did a Twin Pines 2015 ever exist? When Doc, at the start of BTTF1, was planning to travel to the future, did a 2015 in fact exist 'somewhere' which followed on from the history where George was a wimp and Lorraine was a drunk? Somehow, its difficult to imagine that Twin Pines 2015 ever existed in any definite state...considering that the 'logical extrapolation' of Twin Pines 1985 was Marty jumping into the Delorean, getting chased by Libyans, and going back to 1955 and creating the Lone Pine timeline!
But Lone Pine 2015 did exist because we see it...and it is a 'logical extrapolation' of Lone Pine 1985. From Marty's POV in LP 1985, LP 2015 isn't 'written'...anymore than TP 2015 wasn't written for him when he was in TP 1985. But from his POV, it starts to exist in some form when Doc travels there and comes back. So Rogers is right as far as perspective goes-from Marty's POV, Lone Pine 2015 only exists because Doc traveled there and came back, and is now taking him and Jennifer there.
One major problem with the future plot of BTTF2 is that it has an inherent flaw-the presence of future Marty and Jennifer. In a sense, BTTF2 tries to treat the future exactly the same way it treated the past in BTTF1. The future already 'exists', just like the past...and events will unfold exactly as they 'always did' unless you try to change it through time travel. It ignores the fact that 2015 should ALREADY have been changed significantly because of Doc making the trip back to 1985 and removing Marty and Jennifer from the timeline. So is the fact that Old Marty and Jennifer are present indicative of the fact that some things about the future are 'set' (like the fact that Marty and Jen WILL settle down in 1985 and grow old?) Does 2015 exist in some amorphous state throughout the trilogy, and keep morphing with every action of the characters in 1885, 1985 and 2015?
While we can debate about whether the future is written, we can conclude that the future of time travel it's not. So for instance while we watch part II's 2015 sequence we know that a second trip to 1955 and eventually 1885 are in Marty's future, they havent happened yet and thus those events are not written in the timeline yet. I think we can conclude that 2015 is an extension of the 1985 they left. This is why we don't see it changes around is; at the point in time 1985 Marty grabs the almanac, 2015 marty doesn't instantly get richer and likewise Biff doesn't get rich until he physically goes back and gets rich. It's even debatable when the timeline does change, whether it's changed as soon as Biff leaves, returns, or doc and marty get back to 1985. Likewise it doesn't seem like Old Marty and Jennifer are gaining new memories based on what is happening with their younger selves. Also worthy to note that the car accident with Marty is written in the timeline. Doc knows about it (he mentions it in part III) and presumably had already learned about prior to that trip. So not only is it a timeline where Marty and Jennifer live out their natural timelines but this timeline clearly has Marty present on October 27th 1985 (you could argue in this timeline it doesnt happen at that time but the fact that its stated it happens due to him being in an automobile accident 30 years ago with a rolls royce implies it does happen approximately 24 hours after they leave).
The perspective of the Future Marty in BTTF2 is something I've always wondered about. I agree with you that the future of time travel is not written...so logically, Future Marty should not remember a second trip to 1955 or a trip to 1885. But then the question is-what DOES he remember? One can assume that he never even traveled to 2015 as a teenager...but then, we have Old Biff who remembers seeing the flying Delorean in 1985, which means we're in the 2015 of a timeline where Marty, Doc and Jennifer DID leave 1985 for 2015 (and Marty and Jen OBVIOUSLY returned!) So what does Future Marty remember of his trip to 2015? Does he remember standing in for Marty Jr., and the hoverboard chase with Griff? Does he remember the trip to Hilldale? Carrying the unconscious Jennifer back to the Delorean? And what does he remember of the trip back to 1985? He obviously can't remember Hell Valley 1985, because that is what led to 'our' Marty's trip to 1955 and 1885? So does that mean that Old Biff did not steal the Delorean in the 2015 Future Marty visited? But why? How come Future Marty and 'our' Marty have different personal timelines, despite both starting out seemingly the same way?
Interestingly, with reference to the original topic of this thread, the existence of Future Marty is a very solid piece of evidence in favor of the notion that 'our' Marty isn't the 'original Marty'. If you look at it from Doc's POV, he traveled to 2015 and discovered that Marty had broken his hand in a race with Needles and become a loser. He then travels back to 1985 and involves Marty in a sequence of events which culminates in Marty choosing NOT to race Needles, thus altering his timeline after October 27th 1985. So...from Doc's POV, the Marty at the end of BTTF3 is not the original Marty but an alternate Marty. And yet, we follow these movies from Marty's POV, and from his POV he is the original Marty...and as such, we perceive him to be so!
There is an extended scene of that fainting, old marty catches old jennifer and assumes she's tranked so it doesnt seem he remembers. The return is sketchy because we all know they eventually return to the alternate timeline but this is of course the lone pine timeline
Exactly...it seems almost as though the 2015 in BTTF2 is a mish-mash of two timelines-one where Marty and Jennifer NEVER made the trip to the future, and one where they did since Old Biff clearly remembers the Delorean taking off!
it's also important to note that not only does the timeline predict the return but specifically that they are back in 1985 by the next morning for Marty to race needles
My basis for saying that 1985 is the actual present is that there is no future written for Marty after 1985, according to the Doc. It's really quite simple. How can there be a future past 1985 if it isn't written? Think about it this way...There's no way that a 7 year old Marty from 1975 could do anything to alter the present of our Marty, unless someone used a time machine to go to 1975 first. This is because that Marty's future is already written up to 1985, and that's why the Marty we know is able to make significant changes to the timeline.
And notice what 'erases' that future? An event which only gets changed due to TIME TRAVEL. The 2015 we see is the future of Marty without time travel. It's a future where marty let's name calling get to him. That future gets changed as evidenced with the newspaper changing but until time travel changes it, it is the exact same (doc has obviously traveled around 2015 and noticed everything stayed the same until Marty intervened)
In that future we saw, Marty did not go to 1885 and nearly get killed by Buford over name calling (not to mention if he ignored biffs name calling in 1955, Doc probably wouldn't have been sent to 1885 in the first place).