Where did docs delorean come from
Hi theres something that really bugs me that hasnt been explained but im sure it has a simple explanation...
In outatime edna steals the time duplicated delorean and goes and fcb dies but then origanal (or at least almost original) doc comes back but where did his delorean come from? Did he make a new one because that seems a bit silly to me but whatever.
Please answer this quickly because my future depends on it.
In outatime edna steals the time duplicated delorean and goes and fcb dies but then origanal (or at least almost original) doc comes back but where did his delorean come from? Did he make a new one because that seems a bit silly to me but whatever.
Please answer this quickly because my future depends on it.
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The key to understanding this is to realise that the Doc we see in Ep 5 is not really the 'original' Doc (from the movies and the first two Eps). THAT Doc was permanently erased from existence at the end of Ep 2, though his Delorean 'survived' and was used by Marty and FCB Doc in Eps 3 and 4, before being stolen by Edna in Ep 5.
In Ep 5 though, after Emmett becomes a scientist free from Edna's influence, the FCB timeline is erased and replaced with a new timeline, virtually identical to the timeline at the start of the game. However, there are some differences, most notably in Doc's history. THIS Doc is the grown up version of the Emmett Marty interacted with in 1931...he remembers dating Edna, and had a better relationship with his father and was therefore a more respected figure in Hill Valley. In this timeline, he and Clara moved back to 1986 after the events of the movies. THIS Doc thus didn't make the initial trip back to 1931 which Original Doc did, and he didn't get stuck in 1931 or go through the events of the first 2 episodes. He has followed a different path from that of Original Doc's, and therefore his Delorean has followed a different path from that of the Original Doc's Delorean (which Edna stole). Of course, both Deloreans are technically the same car, albeit from different timelines...Doc's Delorean is an alternate version of Edna's Delorean. Of course, they can't both co-exist indefinetly, and eventually the ripple effect does catch up with Edna's Delorean and erase it from existence...
I like to think that docs delorean is a future version of ednas. This doesn't fit properly in the 'hill valley destroyed' timeline but not a lot does there!
Um, I'm not sure I get you there...why would the automatic retrieval system kick at the end of Episode 5?
First of all, I think the system would have been destroyed anyway when the Delorean crashed in FCB 1986 at the end of Episode 2. When Citizen Brown spent six months fixing that Delorean I seriously doubt he would have bothered fixing the auto retrieval system (if he even knew of its existence which is EVEN more doubtful!)
Secondly, at the end of Ep 5, 'our' Doc (the 'new' Doc or whatever you want to call him) unequivocally states that the other Delorean faded from existence.
They are two separate Deloreans from two different timelines...and eventually, one 'overwrote' the other in true BTTF fashion, causing the other to be erased from existence.
I don't think that Edna's delorean disappeared because of the automatic retrial. Wouldn't do that much longer ago assuming that after Edna's arrival in 1886 she didn't even touch the delorean?
I doubt the automatic retrial was even created in that version of the delorean. But I am still confused on how it disappeared because the time should have caught up to it in the citizen brown timeline.
anyway back on topic, there is some information that sn939 forgot to mention and that is why doc's delorean returned. He only mentioned why it exists.
Basically Marty looked at the 1986 newspaper noticing it changed and he fixed the timeline. So he gave the explanation message to doc and told him not to read it until he got the keys to the city. Once he read it he understood everything and came back to get Marty.
That is why Marty said "It worked". That was his escape plan. Otherwise he would be trapped in 1931 forever.
As far as the automatic retrieval goes, Edna's Delorean WAS the one in which the system was originally installed, however, I guess it was simply destroyed at some point during the Game, presumably during the crash at the end of Ep 2.
And I agree, how the Delorean was able to survive in the Citizen Brown timeline is a mystery...then again, I suppose its the same way it was able to survive in 1985-A in BTTF2. Actually a lot about the Citizen Brown timeline and how it came about doesn't make and is inconsistent with BTTF2 (for example, Original Doc being erased but Marty and the Delorean surviving, George and Lorraine reverting back to the Twin Pines versions as though Marty's 1955 trip never happened etc).
As for the bit about Doc and the newspaper...yeah, that's right. I didn't bother mentioning it because I interpreted the question as being about HOW Doc's second Delorean existed, and not about how Doc figured out Marty was in 1931...
I kind of assume it has something to do with how the FC still being invented. Remember? all his notes were removed except for the FC. But then that brings new questions. Citizen Brown doesn't remember the time machine but he remembers the notes. Only the ideas would exist. And then of coarse that would erase Marty's time traveling adventures. Not to mention in this timeline they didn't even know each other.
Stuff like this could maybe be answered with back story in a comic book or collectible Intel in this next game.
Then why did he still have the information about Marty's ancestors that the original Doc went back in time to get? I seem to recall that being one of the big reveals in the ending, the whole reason Doc went back to '31 in the first place.
I guess he went back in time but didn't bother looking for the Arsonist. which is ironic really because in EP1 he said if he wasn't arrested Marty would never be able to come to 1931 causing a paradox.
In fact the automatic retrial wouldn't even kick in because he wasn't arrested. but I don't think they should focus on paradoxes, because the way I see it, a paradox is impossible to avoid with time travel.
Example. You are given a time machine and you can alter one thing. So you decide to save your best friend who was killed in an accident. But then you wouldn't go back to save him because if you saved him why would you go back in time for that reason? He never died.
Realism with sci-fi almost never works. I just find it odd that they would mention paradoxes in the first place.
Yeah, I understood that. Even in the FCB timeline, Doc had the inspiration for the flux capacitor, except that he didn't use it to invent time travel (but instead adapted it as the design for his logo). But the IDEA of time travel probably still existed somewhere in his consiousness which is probably why the Delorean still existed (it's a flimsy rationale, but its about the best one I can think of). And logically, the Delorean never having been built does mean that Marty's past time travelling adventures would never have happened...EXCEPT that in BTTF2, even though Doc never completed the Delorean in the Hell Valley timeline, Marty's 1955 trip still happened (the George McFly who was murdered in 1973 was the Lone Pine author version). However I guess one reason is that the divergence that created the Hell Valley timeline occured AFTER Marty had originally arrived in 1955 (Marty arrived on November 5th, Old Biff arrived on November 12th), whereas in the case of the Citizen Brown timeline, the divergence occured before Marty's original arrival...24 years earlier in fact! Yet another explanation could be that the Delorean used in the game, being a temporal duplicate of the original, was able to erase all the trips made by the original Delorean, but not the 1931 trips made by itself...whereas the original Delorean used in BTTF2 couldn't erase Marty's original 1955 trip made by itself.
Yeah, I must admit that didn't really make sense to me. When the 'new old' Doc arrives in 1931, the implication is that he's there simply because of the newspaper clipping. In fact, he's even surprised that Marty is in 1931. Marty also has to explain to him all about how he had been arrested. So it seems evident that 'this' Doc doesn't remember the events of Ep 1 and 2 (except, of course, from the perspective of young Emmett). And yet in the end, Doc mentions the reason why he made the initial trip back to 1931, which we're led to assume, is the same reason the 'original' Doc from Ep 1-2 had, but did not reveal to Marty then. So does the new Doc remember the events of Ep 1 and 2 or not? It's sure something that f*cks with the brain :P
Again, I agree with you. BTTF2 and 3 are in fact chock-full of such paradoxes.
People tend to assume that the Grandfather paradox only occurs if the time traveller alters history such that he erases his own existence. However, a paradox can most certainly occur if you succeed in intentionally changing history...thereby destroying your original motivation for altering history in the first place.
Case in point...Marty sees Doc's tombstone in 1955 at the Boot Hill Cemetary, and so he decides to go back to 1885 and save Doc's life. He succeeds, but now there is NO tombstone in Boot Hill Cemetary for the Marty in 1955 to see.
Or how about the whole paradox of 'fixing' 1985-A? Marty and Doc find themselves in Hell Valley, figure out that Biff has screwed the timeline, learn all about Old Biff's meeting with his younger self and so return to 1955 to destroy the Almanac and restore the Lone Pine timeline. Except that now that Hell Valley will never have come into existence...the Marty and Doc who returned from 2015 would have no reason to believe Biff had screwed with time and therefore no reason to go back to 1955 and fix things.
And pretty much EVERY time jump made in the game has the same failure in logic.
Of course, we're meant to assume that there are alternate timelines, and changing the past creates a new timeline, which overwrites the old one via the 'ripple effect', and so there is no paradox...but then that raises the question of the alternate versions of the time traveller's who have experianced the 'repaired' timeline and have no way of knowing they need to go back in time. There is logically, for instance, a Marty in 1955 who never saw Doc's tombstone in Boot Hill Cemetary. Or a Marty who DOESN'T start fading from existence at the end of Ep 1 because his grandfather WASN'T shot by Kid Tannen (thanks to the intervention of 'Ep 2 Marty'). But the story just overlooks the existence of these 'alternate Marty's'.
Exactly my point. I really think they should just ignore paradoxes. Although it doesn't make logical sense when you actually think about it, you're not supposed to think this hard when playing a game. especially a sic-fi. It makes the story more complicated.
I think with BTTF they should make it so that even know the time travelers existence of time traveling was altered our erased, the affects that he caused still occurred.
But that's already been established by the series, in BTTF2. Even though Old Biff is erased from existence upon returning to 2015 (in a deleted scene), his actions in 1955 which caused the new timeline (giving himself the Almanac) STILL happened.
I think he went on a similar trip. George mentions that Marty went on a "trip".
You're right.
The way is I see it, this is what happened. Marty (the Marty of the final timeline), is hanging around Doc's garage sale...maybe his father and Biff are present there as well. Then the Delorean (of the Original Doc) shows up, with the Original Einstien. Marty is confused as to the Delorean's presence, and the message from Doc indicating he is trapped in the past, since he knows Doc and the Delorean are both in the present and Doc is presently receiving the key to the city. However, he simply assumes that this is the Doc from some other point in his personal timeline, and so resolves to help him. He probably decides not to enlist the aid of the 'present' Doc because naturally, the two Docs meeting wouldn't be a good idea. So Marty has Einstien sniff out the shoe and he tracks down Edna (the nicer Edna of the final timeline). He goes to Edna's house (and maybe she recognises him as Sonny Crockett from 1931...maybe she even knows ALL about his being a time traveler, as I've suggested on another thread), and he goes through her newspapers and finds the one about the suspected speakeasy arsonist Carl Sagan escaping. He realises, that HE was the one who was 'meant' to rescue Doc. So he goes back in time to June 13th 1931. The moment the temporal displacement occurs, the new timeline Marty is replaced by 'our' Marty (from the timeline at the start of the game). And then, things go more or less as we've seen.
orginal doc: looking for mystery of speakeasy arson,
FCB: changing his past..
New doc: studying Mcflys history
Each DOC in 1931 created the "next doc" by skewing the timeline in 1931.
Does that make it anyeasier for anyone to understand?
Perfect...you've put that more succinctly and simply than anyone else on this thread, including me
In fact, it kinda mirrors the situation on November 12th 1955 in BTTF2. We have three time travelers (three sets of time travelers anyway), each of whom originate from a different timeline...and coincidentally ALL their timelines have diverged from November 12th 1955. We have Marty from the Twin Pines timeline, trying to get his parents together; we have Old Biff from the Lone Pine timeline, giving his younger self the Almanac; and he have the Marty and Doc who've arrived from 1985-A, to get the Almanac back from Biff and prevent him from getting rich.
And as in the previous case, each time traveler creates the NEXT timeline, and makes the next time traveler trip possible. Twin Pines Marty gets his parents to fall in love and thus creates the Lone Pine timeline. This makes it possible for the Old Biff of the Lone Pine timeline to give the Almanac to his younger self, thus creating 1985-A. And it is because they witness the horrors of 1985-A, that Marty and Doc return and steal the Almanac back from young Biff...thus arguably restoring a variation of the Lone Pine timeline. So, in the final timeline, we have time travelers in Hill Valley on November 12th 1955 who have all arrived from different timelines.
It makes perfect sense to me that the Doc would turn up in his own timeline's DeLorean but the DeLorean that Edna took is the same one that Marty had all the way back from Episode one.
If there was some ripple effect that caused the crashed DeLorean to phase out of the time steam, then the Marty we've been playing all along should have been phased out too.
Not quite sure about that;
There's 4-5 timelines that we see in episode 5 (ignoring all the future ones with the future marty's since those are irrelevant here), for simplicities sake i'll go with 4;
1) the timeline at the start being the FCB timeline
2) the timeline showed for a brief moment between old doc returning and edna leaving (pretty close to the timeline we see at the end)
3) the burnt down hill valley timeline
4) the final timeline- similar to the second one but one where Edna ends up with Kid (remember the doc which shows up in the delorean doesn't remember a timeline where Edna walks einstein).
You could argue that the chase scene in 1876 is another timeline but it's irrelevant as we dont' see it play out.
So anyhow back to the discussion about the deloreans; in timeline #3 we still see the old broken delorean still exists despite there likely being no time travel invented in this timeline (unless a completely different set of circumstances lead to doc inventing one.)
While the delorean and time circuits provide the ability to time travel, they in itself cant change a timeline. It seems that's the automatic retreival system doing it's thing at the end. The only logic I can make of it is in timeline #2, the delorean gets back to 1986 (marty brings it back or the automatic retreival system does). In timeline #4 doc is just ensuring that ednas delorean gets back to a past version of him in 1986. Maybe Marty leaves him a recording similar to the one doc leaves at the start of episode 1.
And really, you can more or less ignore the destoryed DeLorean in the burnt out Hill Valley as a possible explaination because after Marty and the Doc fixed the time stream back in the old west, the destroyed DeLorean along with that timeline would have ceased to exist as well.
Like I said, the thing I'm not happy with is the fact that the stolen DeLorean phased out of time but except for a brief period of time when the Doc and Edna used it, it was still the same DeLorean that Marty had from Episode one. Whatever happened to that DeLorean should have happened to Marty.
In fact, now that I really think about it, in 1931 when both DeLoreans existed for a brief period of time, if it is accepted that the Marty we've been playing along is the correct version of Marty, then the time machine that phase of of existence should have been the one that the Doc arrived in.
The simple explaination for a time machine to exist at all would be the same as from the first movie. When you are time traveller, even when you do something that threathen your own every own existence, the consequences of your actions doesn't always take effect right away. Marty for example was given days to get his parents back together.
This also explains why the time machine and Marty exists during the Citizen Brown universe. I think there's little doubt that if Marty took too long to correct the timeline, he and the DeLorean would have phase out of existence. If that had happened, then as far as the time stream is concern, the goody two-shoes Marty who we've never met would have been the correct version of Marty McFly.
That's a bit easier to hypothesize about. First, it's fairly obvious that Hill Valley's jail-house is more of a "temporary" thing while Kid, and later Edna, will be standing trial. They probably spent some time together and Edna, out of some self-righteous delusions, could try to "rehabilitate" Kid. During this time, they probably did rub off on each other a bit. Now, I'm sure that arson didn't care as bad a penalty as Kid's tax evasion, attempted murder, and other things. But in any case, they were probably sent to separate facilities, and Kid, being the jerk he is, still broke out and knocked up Biff's mother. Edna, probably upon being released, went to continue trying to rehabilitate Kid, and I'd assume that eventually they would've rubbed off even more on each other, and bonded. Eventually they realized that they had fallen in love with each other and got married.
Well let's get some terms straight first (this is not directed at you shadownight, I'm just stating it as we have people from all around the world here);
JAIL: is where someone goes when they are first arrested or being held awaiting trial. Doc is in jail in episode 1 and edna and Kid are in jail when they leave 1931 at the end. In this case the jail is at the police station (fairly standard). Usually jail cells are not gender specific (although men and women dont usually share the same cell)
PRISON: is where someone goes after they are convicted. George mentions they met in prison (which is not factually correct though he may be implying when they fell in love and either way George hadn't been born yet in 1931).
So anyhow how do they fall in love? It seems Biffs conception was a one night stand and the severity of Kids crimes would likely have him in prison well after Biffs birth (which is in 1937) so he likely still escaped and either cheated on Edna or hadn't fallen in love yet. They have different philosophies on alcohol but are both willing to break the law to get what they want. Not sure if they were in prison together (rarely are men and women in the same prison wings although it may have been more common in the past) but it is common for people in prison to team up with people they know (it's a lonely and dangerous place). I kind of think Edna went to a mental institution babbling about time travel.
so this new 'doc' at the end of episode 5 (in the new time timeline- having been free from edna and made up with his dad- from this new timelines perspective), experienced the events of bttf2 and 3? if not how would he then be married to clara? In this new timeline, when doc sees marty in 1955 does he remember him from 1931?
The major difference between the ep 5 doc and the one from the beginning is his relationship with his father has improved (and he never saw Frankenstein, dated Edna etc etc).
In fact, after the events of the game, if Marty choose to risk going back to 1931 to visit Doc when the Doc was in jailed for being framed for setting the speakeasy on fire and ask him about what his relationship with his father was, the Doc would tell Marty that it was very good.
The only person who would know "the truth" and that there was a reality where the Doc and his father didn't get along is Marty.
I guess you mean if the 1955 Doc would remember knowing Marty when he was a budding scientist..that's up to debate I suppose. For the most part, according to BTTF, most people seem to forget what other people look like after a certain period of time.
The game also try to get around this problem by suggesting that Marty has nondescript features.
Also, even if the Doc figures out in 1955 that Marty and the young man who helped him was the same person, he would have kept it to himself since telling Marty that they've met when he was young could do damage (more damage!) to the timeline since that meeting 24 years ago is still sometime in Marty's future.
Yes remember doc is now holding onto a newspaper clipping from 1931, and a letter from 1955-1985. And if he does figure it out in 1955 that Marty is the same individual from 1931, he may not realize that in Marty's timeline, the 1931 adventure hasn't happened yet (in 1955 he knows marty is from 1985 but never figures out 1931 marty is from 1986 until Doc wins key to the city. So doc has no clue whether marty goes to 1931 or 1955 first).
No...actually, as I've already explained, the new Doc of the final timeline DIDN'T experiance the events of Episodes 1 and 2 (except from the POV of the teenaged Emmett). Even in the final timeline, the Doc who's in jail on June 13th 1931 as the suspected speakeasy arsonist IS the original Doc (who saw Frankenstien and had a bad relationship with his father). This Doc will go through all the events of Episodes 1 and 2, and then be erased from existence.
In fact, if Doc, after Episode 5, travels back in time to June 13th 1931 and visits 'Carl Sagan' in jail, he will get to meet a version of himself who had a somewhat different life from the one HE remembers.
Look at it this way...suppose in the 2015 of the final timeline after the events of BTTF3 (in which Marty is likely successful, since he didn't race Needles), Marty takes the Old Biff of this timeline back to November 12th 1955. Now, there will be TWO Old Biff's in 1955, but both of them come from different future timelines and have different memories. One Old Biff will remember only having crashed into the manure truck ONCE in 1955, and knowing of a 'loser' Marty McFly...the other Old Biff will remember having crashed into the manure truck TWICE in 1955, knowing of a successful Marty McFly and having received the Almanac from the OTHER Old Biff!
I have given some thought to this as well. I guess it possible Doc may have been reminded of meeting Marty in 1931 and possibly have even put 2 and 2 together...if he did, then he likely kept mum, owing to his fear of disrupting the space-time continuum!
Well, Doc knows for certain that the Marty he meets during the events of BTTF1 in 1955 is on his FIRST time travel trip...and that the Delorean is on its first trip EVER.
No, you are wrong about this.
If Marty travel back in time after the events of the game to say, 5 mins before the start of BTTF1 and ask Doc how was his relationship with his father was. The Doc would answer, "Great!"
And if Marty travel back to 5 mins after BTTF3 and once again ask Doc how his relationship with his father was, The Doc would answer, "Great! In fact, I'm planning to settle down with Clara and the kids in 1985 in my father's estate".
It is this Doc that has a great relationship his father that will now set off the events from the game in 1931.
So if Marty goes back to June 13th 1931 once again and talk to Doc that is in jail and if this Doc still has a terrible relationship with his father, where did the good relationship Doc go and where did the terrible relationship Doc come from? Answer: the terrible relationship Doc doesn't exist anymore anywhere along the timeline. The only person who knows of his existence is Marty.
After the game, as far as Marty is concern, all the adventures he had in BTTF was with a Doc that had a bad relationship with his father because his memories was not alterated, but from the Doc's perspective, all of the adventures he had with Marty, he had it as a man with a great relationship with his father.
As for your example of the old Biffs, you are incorrect about this as well. No one but Marty, The Doc and Jennifer would ever know about the existence of the loser Marty, assuming Marty doesn't do anything else besides racing (or in this case not racing) Needles that could ruin his life, Marty will live to 2015 as a more successful person.
If at 2015, 5 mins before Biff steals the DeLorean, Marty asks the old Biff whether he was successful or not, Biff would answer, yes you are successful. It is this Biff which carries the memory of a successful Marty that will eventually steal the DeLorean and goes back in time.
If you are correct and the old Biff who is in 1955 still knows about the loser Marty, where does the old Biff who knows Marty as a success go? Does he suddenly get a memory transplant during the trip in the DeLorean and now suddenly know a loser Marty?
The actions of Marty alters the reality of people and what they will eventually come to know as thier truth, that is, they will only know the Doc has a good relationship with his father and that Marty never raced Needle. And even when these people becames time travellers and goes back in time, they will still carry these memories with them.
This is from the quote in the other timeline thread that you wrote but I'm going to try and keep the discussion in this thread.
I think you and I differ wildly on this point. You are suggesting that on June 13th 1931, there were actually two old Docs running about, one who has a bad relationship with his father and is sitting in jail and one who has a good relationship with his father, is safe and probably on his way home back to 1986?
This doesn't make any sense.
Using your example of the old Biff in 1955, what you are essentially saying is that there are actually two old Biffs with two stolen DeLoreans running about as well. The original Biff, the one who we see in the movie and knows 2015 Marty as a loser and another final timeline old Biff who is also armed with an Almanac but knows the 2015 Marty as a success.
If that is the case, where in the timeline does these original versions of the Doc and old Biffs comes from? Did the space-time continuum spawn them just to serve the purpose of interacting with the original version of Marty?
What I am saying is that, there are no "original" version of the old Doc in 1931 or an old Biff in 1955. There is only one version. That one version of the Doc and of the old Biff changed after Marty changed the events in their lives.
First of all, the bit about the SECOND Old Biff in 1955 was just an example used by me to illustrate my point. I certainly don't believe there will be two Old Biff's roaming about in 1955...and the latter one ESPECIALLY won't be carrying an Almanac with him (since he would have originated from a future where the events of October 21st 2015, as seen in BTTF2, never happened).
Even as far as the two Doc's go...I'm personally not sure about whether or not the new Doc even MADE a trip to 1931. He does seem to mention traveling to 1931 at the end of Episode 5, but he clearly doesn't remember being in jail or Marty coming to rescue him or any of the events of Episodes 1 and 2. Ergo, the Doc in Episodes 1 and 2 was a different version of Doc.
Look at it this way. Original Doc, FCB Doc and the new Doc are all alternate versions of the same individual, originating from different timelines. Let us ignore the new Doc's alleged initial trip to 1931 to research the McFly family and focus only on what we're certain of from the game.
Original Doc arrives sometime in late May/early June, and is framed by Edna, and arrested as the speakeasy arsonist. His Delorean goes back to 1986 owing to the auto-retrieval. Marty arrives in the Delorean, and rescues Doc, and all the events of Episodes 1 and 2 happen. Then, because of catastrophic changes in young Emmett's personal timeline, Original Doc is erased from existence. Later, on October 12th-13th 1931, FCB Doc arrives with Marty, this time with the intent of preventing young Emmett's relationship with Edna. FCB Doc is the Doc we follow in Episodes 4 and the early part of 5. Then, when Marty ensures that Emmett's future is back on the right track, FCB Doc is erased. The new version of 1986 thus established, creates the new Doc, a grown up version of young Emmett at the end of Episode 5, who then travels back to 1931 to meet Marty in HIS Delorean, while Edna steals the other Delorean (the one belonging to Original Doc which Marty was using throughout the game thus far).
Doc's personal timeline is rewritten several times during the game and this results in different versions of Doc roaming about in 1931 at different points of time.
As for where the Original Doc and FCB Doc came from if the future timelines they originate from were erased...well, where did the Old Biff we see in BTTF2 in 1955 come from, since HIS 2015 had already been erased by that point? Hell, where does the Marty we see in 1955 in the background come from, since even HIS 1985 had been erased by that point already? Time travelers, through their actions in the past, create new timelines that erase the timelines they originally came from. If the new timelines are similar enough, then the time traveler can 'merge' with his new counterpart and essentially fit into the new reality (e.g. Marty at the end of BTTF1)? If however, the new timeline is radically different, then the time traveler is erased from existence (what happens to Old Biff in BTTF2, and Original Doc in Episode 2 of the Game)...
I think we may have to agree to disagree. This is the way I'm suggesting things would happen after the events of the game.
If you see the Doc again a few months before the start of the game and asks him how was his relationship with his father used to be, he would say "Great!" because his history would have been rewritten.
This Doc would then decides to make Marty a present with the McFly family history album. He would travel back to 1931, get jailed and framed from the speakeasy fire. This in term would set the events of the game in motion and the DeLorean get send back in time for Marty to find.
What you are suggesting is that in the rewritten history after the game, either a) the Doc would simply not go back in time or get jailed, in which case, Marty would have never got send to 1931 and the Doc's would never repair his relationship with his father or b) that as soon as the Doc tries to go back to 1931 to make the McFly album, he would vanish only to be replaced instantly by the original Doc who has terrible memories of his father.
I simply can't subscibe to either one as both seem illogical to me.
No, old Biff in 1955 wouldn't be erased yet because it's his future self that got erased in the same way that the background Marty wasn't erased yet because it is a Marty from the pass.
I said "yet" because I believe that at this point, the timeline would have been coming close to hitting a real paradox. That is, if Marty and the Doc was unsuccessful in getting the Almanac back, it would have meant the time machine couldn't have been built in which case old Biff couldn't have travelled back to try and hand himself the Almanac...
But the new Doc explicitly states that he doesn't remember why Marty is in 1931 or the fact that he had been in jail as 'Carl Sagan'.
I believe that the new Doc simply did not go back to 1931, or at any rate, he did not make the same trip original Doc made back to 1931. He instead spent May 14th 1986 in the present, receiving the Key to the City. That is why his Delorean was still in 1986, for him to use to travel back to 1931 later to pick up Marty.
Its simple (okay, not really...but still). There are two Deloreans. Therefore logic dictates there were two Docs. One of the Docs was erased...and by the end of Episode 5, his Delorean is erased as well.
From the POV of the final timeline, original Doc simply appears in 1931 out of nowhere, experiances the events of Episodes 1 and 2, and then is erased from existence.
Just played ep 5 again. The new Doc wasn't specific about if he remembers the speakeasy fire, the subject never came up as far as I can tell. What he was specific about was that he went back to 1931 to do research on Marty's grandmother.
The new Doc does ask Marty what he was doing in 1931 but perhaps he should have been more specific and asked Marty what he was doing in late 1931 during the Science Expo as there wouldn't have been any reason as far as the Doc knows why he should be there or even a way for him to get there.
Well, from Marty's perspective, that would've been the most recent event. Maybe that's why Doc just mentioned that?
Yeah I agree there is some ambiguity there...but still I feel that even if new Doc WAS in 1931 at some point, he WASN'T the Doc in Episodes 1 and 2.
Original Doc's actions in 1931 were a part of history even in the Citizen Brown timeline (which is why Original Doc appears in the background of the picture in FCB's office). Even after he was erased, Original Doc continued to be remembered by the people who saw him in 1931, as Carl Sagan...which was how it was possible for FCB to impersonate him. If Original Doc's actions as Carl Sagan were preserved in the history of the FCB timeline, why wouldn't they be preserved in the history of the new timeline as well. What's so hard to grasp about the concept of alternate versions of time travelers who arrive from different futures and erase their timelines (and themselves) from existence through their actions?
You keep mentioning how, if Marty traveled back in time to the time Doc was in jail in 1931 and spoke to him, it would be the new Doc who would remember his good relationship with his father. So I assume then that you also believe that if, in BTTF2, Marty or Doc communicated with the OTHER Marty in the background, it would not be the original 'Twin Pines' Marty, but rather the 'Lone Pine' Marty who grew up with the successful family. But that isn't so...the Marty we see in the background performs EXACTLY the same actions as Twin Pines Marty did in BTTF1...he is clearly the same version of the character. Furthermore, he makes comments about how his mother doesn't let him do things (a reference to the Twin Pines version of Lorraine) and also makes the same request of his future parents to 'go easy' on his eight year old self (something Lone Pine Marty wouldn't have to do had George and Lorraine followed his request).
Similarly, in BTTF3, in 1885, the Doc who's trapped in the past and targetted by Bufford Tannen doesn't remember Marty's second encounter with him in 1955, finding the buried Delorean, seeing his own tombstone, sending Marty back to 1885 etc etc. because he's a different earlier version of Doc, than the one Marty interacted with in the early part of BTTF3 in 1955.
Yeah, you're right. Also Doc was still coming to terms with the fact that Marty was his old friend from 1931 who 'saved' him from Edna...so maybe that was still playing on his mind.