Yeah I agree there is some ambiguity there...but still I feel that even if new Doc WAS in 1931 at some point, he WASN'T the Doc in Episodes 1 and 2.
Original Doc's actions in 1931 were a part of history even in the Citizen Brown timeline (which is why Original Doc appears in the background of the picture in FCB's office). Even after he was erased, Original Doc continued to be remembered by the people who saw him in 1931, as Carl Sagan...which was how it was possible for FCB to impersonate him. If Original Doc's actions as Carl Sagan were preserved in the history of the FCB timeline, why wouldn't they be preserved in the history of the new timeline as well. What's so hard to grasp about the concept of alternate versions of time travelers who arrive from different futures and erase their timelines (and themselves) from existence through their actions?
You keep mentioning how, if Marty traveled back in time to the time Doc was in jail in 1931 and spoke to him, it would be the new Doc who would remember his good relationship with his father. So I assume then that you also believe that if, in BTTF2, Marty or Doc communicated with the OTHER Marty in the background, it would not be the original 'Twin Pines' Marty, but rather the 'Lone Pine' Marty who grew up with the successful family. But that isn't so...the Marty we see in the background performs EXACTLY the same actions as Twin Pines Marty did in BTTF1...he is clearly the same version of the character. Furthermore, he makes comments about how his mother doesn't let him do things (a reference to the Twin Pines version of Lorraine) and also makes the same request of his future parents to 'go easy' on his eight year old self (something Lone Pine Marty wouldn't have to do had George and Lorraine followed his request).
Similarly, in BTTF3, in 1885, the Doc who's trapped in the past and targetted by Bufford Tannen doesn't remember Marty's second encounter with him in 1955, finding the buried Delorean, seeing his own tombstone, sending Marty back to 1885 etc etc. because he's a different earlier version of Doc, than the one Marty interacted with in the early part of BTTF3 in 1955.
Yeah, you're right. Also Doc was still coming to terms with the fact that Marty was his old friend from 1931 who 'saved' him from Edna...so maybe that was still playing on his mind.
Well during the 1955 sequence in part II it's the biffhoric timeline. You could argue whether the marty from part I is from the biffhoric, twin pine, or lone pine timeline. I dont think he's from the biffhoric timeline because the quote starts with "If you two ever have kids and one of them when he's 8 years old....." in the biffhoric timeline George dies when Marty is 5. There's no evidence which of the other 2 he's from though. It does seem he went through the fading out just like we saw; we see him keep looking at the picture (his cue to check on Marvin) and look at his hand at the end of earth angel.
Either way I agree about your point about alternate travelers still remaining. Old Biff from the twin pines 2015 still exists in Biffhoric 1955 even though he is likely dead in Biffhoric 2015. So if you go by those rules, there are 2 lone pine marty's in 1955 at this time. Likewise the doc in jail in early 1931 is the doc from the beginning of the game. Newest doc obviously does have some memory of traveling to 1931 as he knows he went there to research Sylvia.
Well during the 1955 sequence in part II it's the biffhoric timeline. You could argue whether the marty from part I is from the biffhoric, twin pine, or lone pine timeline. I dont think he's from the biffhoric timeline because the quote starts with "If you two ever have kids and one of them when he's 8 years old....." in the biffhoric timeline George dies when Marty is 5. There's no evidence which of the other 2 he's from though. It does seem he went through the fading out just like we saw; we see him keep looking at the picture (his cue to check on Marvin) and look at his hand at the end of earth angel.
Either way I agree about your point about alternate travelers still remaining. Old Biff from the twin pines 2015 still exists in Biffhoric 1955 even though he is likely dead in Biffhoric 2015. So if you go by those rules, there are 2 lone pine marty's in 1955 at this time. Likewise the doc in jail in early 1931 is the doc from the beginning of the game. Newest doc obviously does have some memory of traveling to 1931 as he knows he went there to research Sylvia.
I agree with you completely (but it is LONE Pine Old Biff btw, not Twin Pines Old Biff).
Though I really don't see how it can be Lone Pine Marty in the background in BTTF2. Lone Pine Marty wouldn't have gone through the fading thing because as per HIS personal timeline, his parents got together when George and Lorraine kissed, after nearly not doing so when the red haired bully cut in. His existence is not in danger because of George not getting hit by the car...so HIS family photo wouldn't have been fading at ANY point of time.
The way I see it, 'our' Marty (the one we follow in BTTF2) is kinda an amalgamation of the Twin Pines and Lone Pine Marty's. His timeline has been rewritten and he knows it...so now, George and Lorraine nearly NOT kissing IS a part of his personal timeline. This is why I believe BTTF2 Marty wouldn't have started fading at the same time BTTF1 Marty was fading. BTTF1 Marty on the other hand is still purely Twin Pines Marty...his parents nearly not kissing is a clear and present danger to his existence, hence he starts fading. Twin Pines Marty essentially BECOMES Lone Pine Marty once he returns to 1985...in this case, the alternate selves are 'merged', because LP Marty made the same time jump back to 1955 which TP Marty did.
In the case of all the Docs in the game however, they are alternate versions who are somewhat completely distinct and HAVE NOT made the same time jumps...hence they cannot 'merge' and one is inevitably erased at the expense of the other.
I agree with you completely (but it is LONE Pine Old Biff btw, not Twin Pines Old Biff).
Though I really don't see how it can be Lone Pine Marty in the background in BTTF2. Lone Pine Marty wouldn't have gone through the fading thing because as per HIS personal timeline, his parents got together when George and Lorraine kissed, after nearly not doing so when the red haired bully cut in. His existence is not in danger because of George not getting hit by the car...so HIS family photo wouldn't have been fading at ANY point of time.
The way I see it, 'our' Marty (the one we follow in BTTF2) is kinda an amalgamation of the Twin Pines and Lone Pine Marty's. His timeline has been rewritten and he knows it...so now, George and Lorraine nearly NOT kissing IS a part of his personal timeline. This is why I believe BTTF2 Marty wouldn't have started fading at the same time BTTF1 Marty was fading. BTTF1 Marty on the other hand is still purely Twin Pines Marty...his parents nearly not kissing is a clear and present danger to his existence, hence he starts fading. Twin Pines Marty essentially BECOMES Lone Pine Marty once he returns to 1985...in this case, the alternate selves are 'merged', because LP Marty made the same time jump back to 1955 which TP Marty did.
In the case of all the Docs in the game however, they are alternate versions who are somewhat completely distinct and HAVE NOT made the same time jumps...hence they cannot 'merge' and one is inevitably erased at the expense of the other.
Sorry I got my pines mixed up LOL, basically any versions of Marty we've seen at any point are the twin pines version of him. I really wouldnt have made sense to have a lone pines marty go through the same experience in 1955 as twin pines marty; a LP mary wouldnt have heard the story of george getting hit by the car. He likely would have still pushed george out of the way but he wouldn't have realized that stops them from meeting' or why Lorraine is falling in love with him instead of George.
Sorry I got my pines mixed up LOL, basically any versions of Marty we've seen at any point are the twin pines version of him. I really wouldnt have made sense to have a lone pines marty go through the same experience in 1955 as twin pines marty; a LP mary wouldnt have heard the story of george getting hit by the car. He likely would have still pushed george out of the way but he wouldn't have realized that stops them from meeting' or why Lorraine is falling in love with him instead of George.
True.
A similar rationale could be used to explain why it always HAS to be Original Doc during the events of Episodes 1 and 2. The new Doc would REMEMBER meeting Marty in 1931...he would know his rocket drill would be used to successfully break Carl Sagan (himself), he would know that his younger self would fall in love with Edna...more importantly, he knew that Edna was the arsonist, so there would be no need for him to try to investigate that mystery and get arrested in the process. New Doc wouldn't have a ticket stub from Frankenstien and so wouldn't be alarmed at the end of Episode 2 when it was disappearing.
Original Doc is essential for events to unfold in the final timeline 1931...just as Twin Pines Marty is essential for events to unfold in the final timeline 1955.
It's definitely a case of the timeline protecting itself. Which is probably why the universe didn't explode when Jennifer saw her older self or when FCB was talking to his younger self or when 3 future versions of Marty showed up. Either that, or the ending is the timeline going "!*@^ it!"
It's definitely a case of the timeline protecting itself. Which is probably why the universe didn't explode when Jennifer saw her older self or when FCB was talking to his younger self or when 3 future versions of Marty showed up. Either that, or the ending is the timeline going "!*@^ it!"
You know, this whole concern of Doc that past and future selves shouldn't come face to face (or else a universe destroying paradox shall occur) is quite frankly nonsensical and has been debunked throughout BTTF2, and now the game
Doc's concerns about the two Jennifer's meeting is one thing...since thus far, no doppelgangers had encountered each other. But now, Doc KNOWS that the two Biffs interacted, he HIMSELF interacted with his 1955 self briefly...and, taking the events of the Game into account, he interacted with his alternate self when he was a teenager...
If you give Doc credit for one thing, then he has to get credit for always considering the worst case scenario. If he didn't, then he'd be a terrible scientist.
Actually, in this case, I suppose its not so much Doc's fault as it is of the two Bobs when they rewrote the BTTF2 script!
The original script actually explained clearly how the encounter between the two Jennifer's could cause a paradox. Doc explains to Marty how, if Jennifer saw her older self, she would likely go into shock and faint, and if she fainted, hit her head hard on the floor, and died, then her future self and her kids with Marty wouldn't exist, and Doc would have no reason to bring Marty and Jennifer to the future, which meant she WOULDN'T die and so on...
Whereas the explanation was CONSIDERABLY reduced in the finished film and cut down simply to "Jennifer encountering herself will create a paradox". This has erroneously led people to believe that two doppelgangers encountering each other will naturally bring about a collapse of the universe...
I think that the question of whether or not 1955 Doc would recognize 1985 Marty to be the same person as the Marty he met in 1931 could be explained by two things:
First, as has been said on this thread before, people in BTTF seem to forget what other people look like over time (eg. George never notices how uncannily Marty looks like "Calvin Kline.")
But also second, if Doc had thought about it, he probably wouldn't have accepted it anyway. This is evidenced by the fact that BTTF3's 1955 Doc flat out refuses initially to believe that Marty has returned from the future, but instead wants to believe that the DeLorean's "gigawatt discharge" has messed with his brain.
I think that the question of whether or not 1955 Doc would recognize 1985 Marty to be the same person as the Marty he met in 1931 could be explained by two things:
First, as has been said on this thread before, people in BTTF seem to forget what other people look like over time (eg. George never notices how uncannily Marty looks like "Calvin Kline.")
But also second, if Doc had thought about it, he probably wouldn't have accepted it anyway. This is evidenced by the fact that BTTF3's 1955 Doc flat out refuses initially to believe that Marty has returned from the future, but instead wants to believe that the DeLorean's "gigawatt discharge" has messed with his brain.
You know, I always thought that whole bit about Doc being shocked about Marty's return to 1955 was a tad ridiculous. After all, he knew that Marty had access to a time machine...what's so shocking about him returning? (well, at least, it wasn't shocking enough for him to FAINT and 'refuse to believe that [Marty's] here'!
I personally feel that Doc may have suspected the truth...but he doesn't know for sure until he receives the Key to the City.
*shrug* Who's to say why Doc was so shocked to the point of fainting? All I can say for certain is that BTTF3 1955 Doc didn't completely completely believe Marty's story until he saw himself in the photo in the library ("Great Scott, it's me. Then it is true. All of it. It is me who goes back there, and gets shot.")
My point being that if 1955 Doc recognized Marty to be Micheal Corleone, he would have probably just brushed it off as utter nonsense and refused to think about it further.
*shrug* Who's to say why Doc was so shocked to the point of fainting? All I can say for certain is that BTTF3 1955 Doc didn't completely completely believe Marty's story until he saw himself in the photo in the library ("Great Scott, it's me. Then it is true. All of it. It is me who goes back there, and gets shot.")
My point being that if 1955 Doc recognized Marty to be Micheal Corleone, he would have probably just brushed it off as utter nonsense and refused to think about it further.
He believed Marty's story alright...and truth be told, he believed that it was HIS tombstone...he and Marty were both trying to be in denial about it until they saw the picture. There was no question of him doubting Marty's story of coming back to 1955 and his future self being trapped in 1885 once he read the letter he wrote to himself!
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Well during the 1955 sequence in part II it's the biffhoric timeline. You could argue whether the marty from part I is from the biffhoric, twin pine, or lone pine timeline. I dont think he's from the biffhoric timeline because the quote starts with "If you two ever have kids and one of them when he's 8 years old....." in the biffhoric timeline George dies when Marty is 5. There's no evidence which of the other 2 he's from though. It does seem he went through the fading out just like we saw; we see him keep looking at the picture (his cue to check on Marvin) and look at his hand at the end of earth angel.
Either way I agree about your point about alternate travelers still remaining. Old Biff from the twin pines 2015 still exists in Biffhoric 1955 even though he is likely dead in Biffhoric 2015. So if you go by those rules, there are 2 lone pine marty's in 1955 at this time. Likewise the doc in jail in early 1931 is the doc from the beginning of the game. Newest doc obviously does have some memory of traveling to 1931 as he knows he went there to research Sylvia.
I agree with you completely (but it is LONE Pine Old Biff btw, not Twin Pines Old Biff).
Though I really don't see how it can be Lone Pine Marty in the background in BTTF2. Lone Pine Marty wouldn't have gone through the fading thing because as per HIS personal timeline, his parents got together when George and Lorraine kissed, after nearly not doing so when the red haired bully cut in. His existence is not in danger because of George not getting hit by the car...so HIS family photo wouldn't have been fading at ANY point of time.
The way I see it, 'our' Marty (the one we follow in BTTF2) is kinda an amalgamation of the Twin Pines and Lone Pine Marty's. His timeline has been rewritten and he knows it...so now, George and Lorraine nearly NOT kissing IS a part of his personal timeline. This is why I believe BTTF2 Marty wouldn't have started fading at the same time BTTF1 Marty was fading. BTTF1 Marty on the other hand is still purely Twin Pines Marty...his parents nearly not kissing is a clear and present danger to his existence, hence he starts fading. Twin Pines Marty essentially BECOMES Lone Pine Marty once he returns to 1985...in this case, the alternate selves are 'merged', because LP Marty made the same time jump back to 1955 which TP Marty did.
In the case of all the Docs in the game however, they are alternate versions who are somewhat completely distinct and HAVE NOT made the same time jumps...hence they cannot 'merge' and one is inevitably erased at the expense of the other.
Sorry I got my pines mixed up LOL, basically any versions of Marty we've seen at any point are the twin pines version of him. I really wouldnt have made sense to have a lone pines marty go through the same experience in 1955 as twin pines marty; a LP mary wouldnt have heard the story of george getting hit by the car. He likely would have still pushed george out of the way but he wouldn't have realized that stops them from meeting' or why Lorraine is falling in love with him instead of George.
True.
A similar rationale could be used to explain why it always HAS to be Original Doc during the events of Episodes 1 and 2. The new Doc would REMEMBER meeting Marty in 1931...he would know his rocket drill would be used to successfully break Carl Sagan (himself), he would know that his younger self would fall in love with Edna...more importantly, he knew that Edna was the arsonist, so there would be no need for him to try to investigate that mystery and get arrested in the process. New Doc wouldn't have a ticket stub from Frankenstien and so wouldn't be alarmed at the end of Episode 2 when it was disappearing.
Original Doc is essential for events to unfold in the final timeline 1931...just as Twin Pines Marty is essential for events to unfold in the final timeline 1955.
You know, this whole concern of Doc that past and future selves shouldn't come face to face (or else a universe destroying paradox shall occur) is quite frankly nonsensical and has been debunked throughout BTTF2, and now the game
Doc's concerns about the two Jennifer's meeting is one thing...since thus far, no doppelgangers had encountered each other. But now, Doc KNOWS that the two Biffs interacted, he HIMSELF interacted with his 1955 self briefly...and, taking the events of the Game into account, he interacted with his alternate self when he was a teenager...
He should know by now that there is no paradox...
The original script actually explained clearly how the encounter between the two Jennifer's could cause a paradox. Doc explains to Marty how, if Jennifer saw her older self, she would likely go into shock and faint, and if she fainted, hit her head hard on the floor, and died, then her future self and her kids with Marty wouldn't exist, and Doc would have no reason to bring Marty and Jennifer to the future, which meant she WOULDN'T die and so on...
Whereas the explanation was CONSIDERABLY reduced in the finished film and cut down simply to "Jennifer encountering herself will create a paradox". This has erroneously led people to believe that two doppelgangers encountering each other will naturally bring about a collapse of the universe...
First, as has been said on this thread before, people in BTTF seem to forget what other people look like over time (eg. George never notices how uncannily Marty looks like "Calvin Kline.")
But also second, if Doc had thought about it, he probably wouldn't have accepted it anyway. This is evidenced by the fact that BTTF3's 1955 Doc flat out refuses initially to believe that Marty has returned from the future, but instead wants to believe that the DeLorean's "gigawatt discharge" has messed with his brain.
You know, I always thought that whole bit about Doc being shocked about Marty's return to 1955 was a tad ridiculous. After all, he knew that Marty had access to a time machine...what's so shocking about him returning? (well, at least, it wasn't shocking enough for him to FAINT and 'refuse to believe that [Marty's] here'!
I personally feel that Doc may have suspected the truth...but he doesn't know for sure until he receives the Key to the City.
My point being that if 1955 Doc recognized Marty to be Micheal Corleone, he would have probably just brushed it off as utter nonsense and refused to think about it further.
He believed Marty's story alright...and truth be told, he believed that it was HIS tombstone...he and Marty were both trying to be in denial about it until they saw the picture. There was no question of him doubting Marty's story of coming back to 1955 and his future self being trapped in 1885 once he read the letter he wrote to himself!