both valid points here; Marty learned to stand up for himself on his own without George. Look at the different timelines;
twin pine: Arthur coward, George coward,
lone pine: Arthur coward, george confident
FCB: Arthur confident, george coward
last timeline: Arthur confident, george confident
Interesting observation.
That said, the FCB timeline is particularly interesting, since it seems to imply that George would be a coward regardless of whether his father was one or not, unless Marty intervened in 1955.
So I admit, it IS possible to make the case that Marty Jr. will be a wimp and messed up regardless of whether Marty is successful or not...except that in this case, Marty KNOWS what his son would have ended up like in a possible future and will actively take steps to ensure that doesn't happen.
That said, the FCB timeline is particularly interesting, since it seems to imply that George would be a coward regardless of whether his father was one or not, unless Marty intervened in 1955.
So I admit, it IS possible to make the case that Marty Jr. will be a wimp and messed up regardless of whether Marty is successful or not...except that in this case, Marty KNOWS what his son would have ended up like in a possible future and will actively take steps to ensure that doesn't happen.
There isn't a lot of evidence to base Marty Jr on, we only see him in one timeline. You could argue that in that timeline Biff has extra resent over George since George standing up for him turned both their lives around (george in a positive way, biff in a negative one). Marty doesn't seem to be the type to be bullied but it's quite possible Biff influences griff to be a bully. In the timelines Biff doesn't end up like a loser (twin pines, maybe biffhoric) he doesnt need Griff to 'avenge' him perhaps
There isn't a lot of evidence to base Marty Jr on, we only see him in one timeline. You could argue that in that timeline Biff has extra resent over George since George standing up for him turned both their lives around (george in a positive way, biff in a negative one). Marty doesn't seem to be the type to be bullied but it's quite possible Biff influences griff to be a bully. In the timelines Biff doesn't end up like a loser (twin pines, maybe biffhoric) he doesnt need Griff to 'avenge' him perhaps
I dunno...I suppose a lot depends also on Biff's daughter, Tiff Tannen (?), who's Griff's mother. We don't know how her life was affected by the change in her father's past. Hell, it leads one to question-did Biff marry the SAME woman in both the Twin Pines and Lone Pine timelines? Would bullying corrupt executive Biff and the wimpy mechanic Biff have the same wife and daughter? Hell, was Biff married AT ALL in the Twin Pines timeline? The Bobs lead us to believe that the Space-time continuum tries to keep things consistent between timeline, but I'm pretty sure the change in Biff's fortunes would significantly impact his family and his descendants.
I dunno...I suppose a lot depends also on Biff's daughter, Tiff Tannen (?), who's Griff's mother. We don't know how her life was affected by the change in her father's past. Hell, it leads one to question-did Biff marry the SAME woman in both the Twin Pines and Lone Pine timelines? Would bullying corrupt executive Biff and the wimpy mechanic Biff have the same wife and daughter? Hell, was Biff married AT ALL in the Twin Pines timeline? The Bobs lead us to believe that the Space-time continuum tries to keep things consistent between timeline, but I'm pretty sure the change in Biff's fortunes would significantly impact his family and his descendants.
Confusing things even more, if you take the television show (and the draft for Back to the Future II) into account, Biff had a son named Biff Tannen Jr (who in the draft of Back to the Future II owned Cafe 80s and was meant to be Griff's father). It's possible Biff had both kids (Biff Jr is said to be 11 in 1992, so he'd only be 5 during Back to the Future: The game), but it's also possible the timeline changes in the second 1955 trip caused Biff to have a girl instead of a boy, and she still named her son Griff making the Griff Doc got the duplicate DeLorean from in the 21st century in the game a whole different person.
Confusing things even more, if you take the television show (and the draft for Back to the Future II) into account, Biff had a son named Biff Tannen Jr (who in the draft of Back to the Future II owned Cafe 80s and was meant to be Griff's father). It's possible Biff had both kids (Biff Jr is said to be 11 in 1992, so he'd only be 5 during Back to the Future: The game), but it's also possible the timeline changes in the second 1955 trip caused Biff to have a girl instead of a boy, and she still named her son Griff making the Griff Doc got the duplicate DeLorean from in the 21st century in the game a whole different person.
It's not stated in the animated series who Griffs parent is. Biff Jr. is a rival to Verne and Jules but Griff is only seen/referenced in one episode; they go to 2091 and Griff is an old man in jail.
Confusing things even more, if you take the television show (and the draft for Back to the Future II) into account, Biff had a son named Biff Tannen Jr (who in the draft of Back to the Future II owned Cafe 80s and was meant to be Griff's father). It's possible Biff had both kids (Biff Jr is said to be 11 in 1992, so he'd only be 5 during Back to the Future: The game), but it's also possible the timeline changes in the second 1955 trip caused Biff to have a girl instead of a boy, and she still named her son Griff making the Griff Doc got the duplicate DeLorean from in the 21st century in the game a whole different person.
That's an intriguing theory...though I can't really see how the second 1955 trip would alter Biff's destiny to the extent of affecting his offspring. Biff's personality didn't seem THAT different between the Lone Pine and Eastwood timelines.
That's an intriguing theory...though I can't really see how the second 1955 trip would alter Biff's destiny to the extent of affecting his offspring. Biff's personality didn't seem THAT different between the Lone Pine and Eastwood timelines.
Well he did use the word 'butthead' in the eastwood timeline, something he doesnt in 1985 LP timeline. You could argue the second manure crash could have changed things; he stiffs Terry the first time around so Terry would either refuse him or demand the money up fron the second time around. Who knows what happened the first time around after getting punched out. It's possible he stuck around, went after George etc but got pre occupied once he had the almanac.
Yeah I don't think 1955 trip affected his offspring. I think he had both Biff Jr and Tiff but weren't shown in the movie. Remember when he said "Third times the charm"?
Also I think Biff has always been the same but he's nice around George and his family.
Yeah I don't think 1955 trip affected his offspring. I think he had both Biff Jr and Tiff but weren't shown in the movie. Remember when he said "Third times the charm"?
Also I think Biff has always been the same but he's nice around George and his family.
True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...
True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...
Right. However since there is no proof of this we can just call it fate.
True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...
look at it this way;
in the biffhoric timeline its indicated Lorraine was his third marriage and his first two were celebrities (can't remember who the first was, the second seemed to be Marilyn Monroe). So unlikely griff is born in this timeline unless it's due to adultery.
Agreed. I've often believed that the fact that BTTF1 Marty's photograph of his siblings was ALSO obviously fading in BTTF2 indicates that he is Twin Pines Marty.
In fact, the way I rationalize it, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty is Lone Pine Marty and the other Marty is still Twin Pines Marty. Because our Marty is Lone Pine Marty, he doesn't start fading when George and Lorraine almost don't kiss, because their almost not kissing before they finally do owing to Twin Pines Marty is the way HIS personal timeline is supposed to be! Whereas George and Lorraine almost not kissing is NOT part of Twin Pines Marty's personal timeline, and so his existence is endangered. The moment George and Lorraine DO kiss, Twin Pines Marty essentially becomes Lone Pine Marty in terms of causality. But the 'original' Marty in 1955 in BTTF2 is definetly Twin Pines Marty in terms of memory.
MJ Young doesn't factor this into his discussion because he simply dismisses the fading photographs/newspapers as being too 'unrealistic' (well, he's right...but they're damn realistic when it comes to BTTF's own 'rules')
The way I see it is when LP Marty goes back to 1955 in pt 2, I think the TP Marty would have ceased to exist. Think about it. The first time Marty comes back to 1985 to try and save the Doc from being shot (who is now the LP Doc that already knows Marty from the past), he see himself in the Delorean, running from the terrorists. Well if Doc is the LP Doc, wouldn't that now make that Marty who was about to go back in time, the new LP Marty? As a matter of fact, that whole scenario with the terrorists actually would have been altered because there would have been a major butterfly effect caused my Marty meeting Doc in 1955. There is a major paradox there for sure.
The way I see it is when LP Marty goes back to 1955 in pt 2, I think the TP Marty would have ceased to exist. Think about it. The first time Marty comes back to 1985 to try and save the Doc from being shot (who is now the LP Doc that already knows Marty from the past), he see himself in the Delorean, running from the terrorists. Well if Doc is the LP Doc, wouldn't that now make that Marty who was about to go back in time, the new LP Marty?
He did assume the role of Lone Pine Marty, but he's still Twin Pines Marty since he still remembers the Twin Pines reality (as seen when he is surprised about how well off his family is). So Twin Pines Marty didn't cease to exist.
My theory is that the Back to the Future universe is cyclical. I think that's the reason Doc built the time train, to make sure that the changes he and Marty made would have allowed Lone Pine Marty to follow the same course. So, that's the reason the photo turned to grass instead of a tombstone, when it would have made more sense for the photo to just disappear, because Doc hadn't yet put up a new tombstone to make sure that Lone Pine Marty traveled to 1885. So, Lone Pine Marty didn't cease to exist either. He would return to 1985, and see himself leaving for 1955, then that Marty would return and see himself leaving for 1955, ad nauseum.
BTTF time travel rules are actually pretty simple.
1. affecting people: when you go back into the past you can alter a persons course on the timeline, unfortunately you never know what effect you may have (thus the risk of fading)
2. affecting places: theoretically a building, monument, town etc, will always exist as long as the creation of it was not interfered with (Edna burns down Hill Valley, no Hill Valley in the future)
Also this explains some of the "paradoxes" in the movies:
BTTF 2:
Even though old Biff went back into the past and altered the timeline, he had nothing to do with the creation of the Sports Almanac. So Biff erased his own old existence, but not the existence of the book.
3. affecting things: This part will include the DeLorean, but its relatively simple. Its the same rules that apply to affecting places. The DeLorean will always exist in one form or another because of the simple fact that the components that were used to build it exist.
There has also always been a lag associated with how long a specific change effects Marty, Doc, or any time traveling vehicles, thus giving plenty of time to fix any wrongs that might have occured.
He did assume the role of Lone Pine Marty, but he's still Twin Pines Marty since he still remembers the Twin Pines reality (as seen when he is surprised about how well off his family is). So Twin Pines Marty didn't cease to exist.
My theory is that the Back to the Future universe is cyclical. I think that's the reason Doc built the time train, to make sure that the changes he and Marty made would have allowed Lone Pine Marty to follow the same course. So, that's the reason the photo turned to grass instead of a tombstone, when it would have made more sense for the photo to just disappear, because Doc hadn't yet put up a new tombstone to make sure that Lone Pine Marty traveled to 1885. So, Lone Pine Marty didn't cease to exist either. He would return to 1985, and see himself leaving for 1955, then that Marty would return and see himself leaving for 1955, ad nauseum.
That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!
Throughout the trilogy, the idea that is presented is that there is only ONE Marty...except when he travels to a time period where he already exists (1955 in BTTF2 for e.g.) or when he's in an alternate timeline where his younger self never started time traveling (Hell Valley, Citizen Brown etc.). The idea of, say, two Marty's co-existing along the same timeline and having the same adventures (almost as though one was playing 'catch up' with the other) is kinda absurd. Once 'our' Marty goes back and saves Doc in 1885, the tombstone vanishes from the picture. Sure, that may logically be a paradox, but that's with regards to OUR Marty's trip...its not like Doc has to worry about some OTHER Marty making a SECOND trip to 1885...
That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!
Throughout the trilogy, the idea that is presented is that there is only ONE Marty...except when he travels to a time period where he already exists (1955 in BTTF2 for e.g.) or when he's in an alternate timeline where his younger self never started time traveling (Hell Valley, Citizen Brown etc.). The idea of, say, two Marty's co-existing along the same timeline and having the same adventures (almost as though one was playing 'catch up' with the other) is kinda absurd. Once 'our' Marty goes back and saves Doc in 1885, the tombstone vanishes from the picture. Sure, that may logically be a paradox, but that's with regards to OUR Marty's trip...its not like Doc has to worry about some OTHER Marty making a SECOND trip to 1885...
I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently; doc would have kept marty indoors for that week and even if Marty did go to the dance with Lorraine, it's the fading picture that eventually causes him to go on stage and play the guitar (this by the way is proof that in part II, that marty went through the same thing as ours. His picture clearly fades as well, otherwise he would have left after George punched out Biff). Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?
One other thing to consider; lone pine marty has a truck so why didn't he drive it to the mall?
BTTF time travel rules are actually pretty simple.
1. affecting people: when you go back into the past you can alter a persons course on the timeline, unfortunately you never know what effect you may have (thus the risk of fading)
2. affecting places: theoretically a building, monument, town etc, will always exist as long as the creation of it was not interfered with (Edna burns down Hill Valley, no Hill Valley in the future)
Also this explains some of the "paradoxes" in the movies:
BTTF 2:
Even though old Biff went back into the past and altered the timeline, he had nothing to do with the creation of the Sports Almanac. So Biff erased his own old existence, but not the existence of the book.
3. affecting things: This part will include the DeLorean, but its relatively simple. Its the same rules that apply to affecting places. The DeLorean will always exist in one form or another because of the simple fact that the components that were used to build it exist.
There has also always been a lag associated with how long a specific change effects Marty, Doc, or any time traveling vehicles, thus giving plenty of time to fix any wrongs that might have occured.
Well, you certainly make a lot of good points. I've got a set of 'rules' regarding time travel in BTTF myself-
1. The fundamental rule in BTTF is that there is no such thing as a predestination paradox. So, the effects of time travel can only be seen AFTER the time travel event has occurred (in meta-time). So, Marty may have influenced Goldie Wilson to become the mayor in the LP timeline, but in the original TP timeline, Goldie became the mayor without Marty's influence. Same thing with Johnny Be Goode. The one major exception to this rule is in BTTF2-the presence of older versions of Marty and Jennifer implies that their return to 1985 from 2015 was apparently 'predestined', though how their lives unfolded during that thirty year period clearly isn't.
2. The 'future isn't written'...which means that whenever a time traveler travels to the past, the time period he comes from exists only in a theoretical sense and is constantly fluctuating based on his actions in the past. This is reflected in objects brought from the future, such as photographs and newspapers. So the picture of the tombstone in BTTF3 keeps changing, based on Marty and Doc's actions in 1885, because the picture represents 1955, and 1955 is in flux because of the very presence of time travelers in 1885. Objects from the future represent the 'most likely future' based on the status quo in the past from the time traveler's POV.
3. Even if the information contained in newspapers and photographs changes, the objects themselves are never erased from existence. So, when Marty prevents his parents first meeting, the McFly children begin to fade from the photograph, but the photograph itself doesn't cease to exist-probably because the piece of film itself would still exist in the new timeline. Same thing with the fax paper Jennifer brought with her from 2015...the 'YOU'RE FIRED' fades from the paper, but the paper itself remains, probably because the paper itself would still exist in 2015 even if Marty's future has changed. This, despite the fact that since Marty never got fired in 2015, Jennifer would have no reason to bring that paper back with her to 1985. The circumstances behind the paper's presence in 1985 have been erased, the information has been erased and yet the paper remains.
4. If an alternate timeline is created, then the time traveler's existence or non-existence depends on the fate of his/her alternate counterpart. If the time travelers alternate counterpart is alive and well in the new timeline, then the time traveler can seemingly co-exist with his/her counterpart (but we don't know how long that could last). This is what happens with Marty in Hell Valley in BTTF2. But if the time traveler's counterpart is dead, or never existed, in the new timeline, then the time traveler is erased (which is what happens to Old Biff in BTTF2).
5. If a time traveler is in a time period which is not his/her own, and another time traveler changes the past, then the first time traveler will remain immune to the changes such that reality will seemingly transform AROUND him/her/. This is the only explanation for how Marty, Doc and Jennifer were able to make it to the Hell Valley timeline when Old Biff changed the past-they were in 2015, so the timeline changed around them. We see a very vivid example of this in the game, where Hill Valley fades around Marty and Doc while they're in 1931.
I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently; doc would have kept marty indoors for that week and even if Marty did go to the dance with Lorraine, it's the fading picture that eventually causes him to go on stage and play the guitar (this by the way is proof that in part II, that marty went through the same thing as ours. His picture clearly fades as well, otherwise he would have left after George punched out Biff). Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?
One other thing to consider; lone pine marty has a truck so why didn't he drive it to the mall?
True.
I think its pretty obvious therefore that there is only ONE Marty throughout the trilogy, and ONE sequence of events.
Lone Pine Marty travels back in time to 1955 and is 'cancelled out/replaced' by Twin Pines Marty. TP Marty goes through all the events of 1955 in BTTF1, then returns to 1985 and is surprised by the LP version of his family, then accompanies Doc to 2015, then returns to 1985 only to find himself in Hell Valley, then returns to 1955, then travels to 1885, and finally returns to 1985 at the end. I believe he will get the memories of his LP counterpart eventually (and the whole 'chicken problem' may be a sign that the process already started), but I don't believe there is ever an alternate sequence of events involving a different version of Marty.
Of course, all the altered timelines DO raise the question of how much we saw on screen actually makes it to the final timeline. Well, we certainly know what DIDN'T happen. The first 30 minutes of BTTF1 could no longer have happened given that the McFly family was changed. The entire 2015 course of events are unlikely to have happened, given how Marty decides not to race Needles. The whole 1985-A segment didn't happen. Also the early part of BTTF3 where they discover the tombstone also likely didn't happen.
That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!
It's still the same timeline, just cyclical. We saw Lone Pine Marty leave in 1985. So, he left to do the same events as Twin Pines Marty. So Twin Pines 1985 Lone Pine Jennifer will see 2015 Twin Pines Marty and faint from seeing 2015 Twin Pines Jennifer (who will remember the events when she was that Jennifer). And Lone Pine Marty will travel back to 1885 to rescue Lone Pine Doc. And then Lone Pine Marty will come back to 1985 and then later take part in the events of 1986.
I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently
Lone Pine Marty would still have the photo, and Lone Pine Marty still would have saved his Dad from being hit by the car. The Doc he'd meet would be Lone Pine Doc, who wouldn't have any memory of the events since they haven't happened for him yet. So the photo still would have disappeared, and the events would have played out the same.
Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?
That's simple too. All Twin Pines Doc has to do is tell Twin Pines Marty to let things take their natural course. Marty can still be successful, but time has a knack of pitting Tannens against McFlys, so his son will still be bullied by Griff. Twin Pines Marty would know that Lone Pine Marty would come and make things right with his son.
It's still the same timeline, just cyclical. We saw Lone Pine Marty leave in 1985. So, he left to do the same events as Twin Pines Marty. So Twin Pines 1985 Lone Pine Jennifer will see 2015 Twin Pines Marty and faint from seeing 2015 Twin Pines Jennifer (who will remember the events when she was that Jennifer). And Lone Pine Marty will travel back to 1885 to rescue Lone Pine Doc. And then Lone Pine Marty will come back to 1985 to live the life that 1985 Twin Pines Marty did.
I'm sorry, I really can't understand exactly what you're saying...but it seems to me that you're suggesting that Lone Pine Marty ends up restoring the Twin Pines timeline somehow...but all indications are to the contrary. As we see in the Game, 6 months later, Marty is still living in the Lone Pine timeline (the Eastwood timeline to be more technical, but whatever).
I'm sorry, I really can't understand exactly what you're saying...but it seems to me that you're suggesting that Lone Pine Marty ends up restoring the Twin Pines timeline somehow...but all indications are to the contrary. As we see in the Game, 6 months later, Marty is still living in the Lone Pine timeline (the Eastwood timeline to be more technical, but whatever).
No I'm not saying he restores the timeline, I'm just saying that Lone Pine Marty takes the same trip. The 1985 Jennifer has to meet up with a 2015 Marty and Jennifer. That 1985 Jennifer is Lone Pine Jennifer and the 2015 Marty and Jennifer are Twin Pines Jennifer. Hence, time is cyclical.
No I'm not saying he restores the timeline, I'm just saying that Lone Pine Marty takes the same trip. The 1985 Jennifer has to meet up with a 2015 Marty and Jennifer. That 1985 Jennifer is Lone Pine Jennifer and the 2015 Marty and Jennifer are Twin Pines Jennifer. Hence, time is cyclical.
Actually there is plenty of evidence that 2015 is the lone pine timeline;
-the ledge doc broke in 1955 on the clocktower is still broken
-Biff clearly did crash into the manure truck (he states he remembers it and the deleted scene has terry still whining about getting stiffed by Biff)
-Biff states George McFly is NOT a loser.
-doc states that if you go into the future it is the future of the reality you are in. They clearly left LP 1985 so they'd have to arrive in LP 2015 (this likely explains why future Marty and Jennifer are still there).
The game does continue the movie's mystical concepts that the timeline preserves itself so that similar things happen. Marty and Jennifer did have a rendezvous in the FCB timeline, also FCB steals plutonium from the libyans.
Actually there is plenty of evidence that 2015 is the lone pine timeline
I agree that the timeline is the Lone Pine timeline. By Twin Pines Marty and Twin Pines Jennifer, I meant the 1985 Jennifer and the 1985 Marty from the movies. By Lone Pine Marty, I meant the Marty that leaves 1985 at the end of the first movie.
The 1985 Jennifer from the movies is going to meet up with the Jennifer that was the girlfriend of the Marty who left at the end of the first movie in 2015. The 1985 Jennifer from the movies will remember the events since she already lived them, whereas the 2015 Jennifer in Back to the Future II didn't. Hence it's a different cycle of time.
I agree that the timeline is the Lone Pine timeline. By Twin Pines Marty and Twin Pines Jennifer, I meant the 1985 Jennifer and the 1985 Marty from the movies. By Lone Pine Marty, I meant the Marty that leaves 1985 at the end of the first movie.
The 1985 Jennifer from the movies is going to meet up with the Jennifer that was the girlfriend of the Marty who left at the end of the first movie in 2015. The 1985 Jennifer from the movies will remember the events since she already lived them, whereas the 2015 Jennifer in Back to the Future II didn't. Hence it's a different cycle of time.
I'm starting to understand now, but you're terminology is a bit confusing. For instance, its inaccurate to call the Jennifer we see in the movies Twin Pines Jennifer. We see Twin Pines Jennifer for a couple of scenes at the start of BTTF1. Once Marty goes back to 1955, that's the END of the Twin Pines timeline and the Twin Pines version of ANYONE! They are all replaced by the Lone Pine versions. Marty alone is still Twin Pines Marty because he's the only one who remembers the original Twin Pines timeline, since he's the one who made the time jump that erased it.
So really, its LONE PINE Jennifer we're dealing with.
And you're right that 'our' Jennifer would remember traveling to 2015, unlike the 2015 Jennifer we see in BTTF2...but then again, arguably, things will be VERY different for 'our' Jennifer in 2015 anyway (that was the very point of this thread originally!)
It's very easy to forget those events over 30 years. The only one who remembers the events of time travel is Doc with the trips to 1931 and 1955 because he had notes that he had to wait to open. Without them and if Marty had told him what happens in the future he might just forget. Especially if Marty left and never came back. Doc only remembered Marty form 1931 because he read the newspaper clip.
And what about the new ending of the video game? Explain that one...
There are multiple future Martys from multiple timestreams in one time period because of the ripple effect (which means a change in time happens like a stone thrown in a pond, and the ripples the stone makes are the effects in time due to that change). Since Marty is a time traveller, and in the Back to the Future universe it takes a long time for the ripple in time to catch up to a time traveller, time hasn't yet caught up to them yet. Doc and Marty leave all of the future Martys behind because the only Marty that matters is the one in the present, and they know that the Martys wouldn't harm their own past. The ripple effect will take care of the duplicates.
There are multiple future Martys from multiple timestreams in one time period because of the ripple effect (which means a change in time happens like a stone thrown in a pond, and the ripples the stone makes are the effects in time due to that change). Since Marty is a time traveller, and in the Back to the Future universe it takes a long time for the ripple in time to catch up to a time traveller, time hasn't yet caught up to them yet. Doc and Marty leave all of the future Martys behind because the only Marty that matters is the one in the present, and they know that the Martys wouldn't harm their own past. The ripple effect will take care of the duplicates.
RIGHT! I use Biff as an example of how this could happen;
lone pine 2015 Biff is seen in 1955 despite the current timeline being the Biffhoric one (which its believed Biff doesnt live to 2015). Let's say in the Bfforic timeline Biff doesnt die by 2015 and he goes back to 1955, we have 2 different biffs at the same spot. Now in the eastwood timeline he goes back again, we now have 3 different Biffs in 1 timeline.
It's very easy to forget those events over 30 years. The only one who remembers the events of time travel is Doc with the trips to 1931 and 1955 because he had notes that he had to wait to open. Without them and if Marty had told him what happens in the future he might just forget. Especially if Marty left and never came back. Doc only remembered Marty form 1931 because he read the newspaper clip.
Honestly, I think the ONE thing someone WOULD remember for 30 years would be a time travel related event!
So even if Doc didn't remember ANYTHING about 1955, he WOULD remember spending a week with a boy from the future...regardless of whether he had a note or not.
The events of 1931 are different though...Doc might remember the Marty he knew back then, but Emmett didn't know anything about Marty being a time traveler, so he likely wouldn't equate 1931 Marty with being the Marty he meets later. Then again, I've often wondered if, in the final timeline, Doc begins to suspect the connection as early as 1955, when he first meets the time travelling Marty...
Honestly, I think the ONE thing someone WOULD remember for 30 years would be a time travel related event!
So even if Doc didn't remember ANYTHING about 1955, he WOULD remember spending a week with a boy from the future...regardless of whether he had a note or not.
The events of 1931 are different though...Doc might remember the Marty he knew back then, but Emmett didn't know anything about Marty being a time traveler, so he likely wouldn't equate 1931 Marty with being the Marty he meets later. Then again, I've often wondered if, in the final timeline, Doc begins to suspect the connection as early as 1955, when he first meets the time travelling Marty...
Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.
There are multiple future Martys from multiple timestreams in one time period because of the ripple effect (which means a change in time happens like a stone thrown in a pond, and the ripples the stone makes are the effects in time due to that change). Since Marty is a time traveller, and in the Back to the Future universe it takes a long time for the ripple in time to catch up to a time traveller, time hasn't yet caught up to them yet. Doc and Marty leave all of the future Martys behind because the only Marty that matters is the one in the present, and they know that the Martys wouldn't harm their own past. The ripple effect will take care of the duplicates.
I don't think that would make a great plot? The conflict is removed by them waiting for the ripple effect to kick in? There has to be a way for them to exist out of their timeline. Unless of coarse they are all in the same timeline but at different ages.
Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.
Why do you need 'evidence'? Its pretty OBVIOUS. Unless someone gets amnesia, they are BOUND to remember major events in their life from 30 years ago. And meeting a teenager from the future who claims that you invent a time machine 30 years later, and hell, actually SHOWS you that time machine...is DEFINETLY a major event, if not THE major event of your life!
See, I can agree with George and Lorraine not really remembering Marty from 1955 clearly...but Doc not remembering Marty DESPITE knowing he's a time traveler from the future?! Not a chance!
Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.
what do you mean by 'remember' time travel? Doc clearly remembers the 1955 events from the first film by 1985, he has the letter and clearly states in part II he helped Marty return to 1985. Biff witnesses time travel in 1985 (he just doesnt know it) and remembers that event in 2015.
what do you mean by 'remember' time travel? Doc clearly remembers the 1955 events from the first film by 1985, he has the letter and clearly states in part II he helped Marty return to 1985. Biff witnesses time travel in 1985 (he just doesnt know it) and remembers that event in 2015.
Like I said, he remembers those events because he put the note together and read it in 1985. Plus Biff remembered seeing the time machine because when he saw it again in 2015 it was a reminder to him.
Anyways I don't really think it's a paradox and I think you guys are trying to hard to find paradoxes. Saying it's a paradox that Marty can stop the conflict between his son and Griff simply because he could remember going to 2015 is just speculation. Unless you can provide me proof that this happened and that Marty did stop the event then it's not a paradox. Sure maybe he might remember the events but the details could be fuzzy.
Like I said, he remembers those events because he put the note together and read it in 1985. Plus Biff remembered seeing the time machine because when he saw it again in 2015 it was a reminder to him.
Anyways I don't really think it's a paradox and I think you guys are trying to hard to find paradoxes. Saying it's a paradox that Marty can stop the conflict between his son and Griff simply because he could remember going to 2015 is just speculation. Unless you can provide me proof that this happened and that Marty did stop the event then it's not a paradox. Sure maybe he might remember the events but the details could be fuzzy.
Okay, let me get this straight. Are you suggesting, that if not for the note Marty had left behind for Doc to put together, Doc would have simply forgotten about the fact that-
a) He spent a week with a kid from the future
b) The kid came in a time machine he invented (or rather WOULD invent), which he not only clearly saw with his own eyes, but even WORKED upon
And, after the events of BTTF3, we also have to take into account the fact that-
c) He read a 70 year old letter, in his OWN handwriting, from his future self who was trapped in the past; and used the instructions in that letter, to locate the buried time machine and repair it
I can definitely understand Biff, George and Lorraine forgetting about Marty over time...but for 1955 DOC to forget about it is impossible, barring a case of amnesia!
And likewise, I really don't see how Marty would ever forget about the fact that he once traveled to the future and discovered that his son was a wimp...
I don't think that would make a great plot? The conflict is removed by them waiting for the ripple effect to kick in? There has to be a way for them to exist out of their timeline. Unless of coarse they are all in the same timeline but at different ages.
They aren't from the same timeline because one future Marty states that the timeline another future Marty was from was erased.
It wasn't a cliffhanger for a second series, or the beginning of a plot for another adventure since Doc and 1986 Marty went off in the DeLorean alone to some entirely different time. The ending served as a message to Marty that the only thing that really matters is the present, and the future is what you make of it (as Doc said in Back to the Future III).
Okay, let me get this straight. Are you suggesting, that if not for the note Marty had left behind for Doc to put together, Doc would have simply forgotten about the fact that-
a) He spent a week with a kid from the future
b) The kid came in a time machine he invented (or rather WOULD invent), which he not only clearly saw with his own eyes, but even WORKED upon
And, after the events of BTTF3, we also have to take into account the fact that-
c) He read a 70 year old letter, in his OWN handwriting, from his future self who was trapped in the past; and used the instructions in that letter, to locate the buried time machine and repair it
I can definitely understand Biff, George and Lorraine forgetting about Marty over time...but for 1955 DOC to forget about it is impossible, barring a case of amnesia!
And likewise, I really don't see how Marty would ever forget about the fact that he once traveled to the future and discovered that his son was a wimp...
Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.
Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2.
Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.
Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2.
Except that Marty explicidly states that doc's time machine made things better, he also remembers Clayton Ravine and the significance.
I don't know who's stating it's a paradox? Biff also clearly remembers crashing into the manure truck in 1985 and 2015 how do you explain that? Sorry but to claim the letter from marty is the only reason doc remembers the events ot november 1955 is absurd.
Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.
Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2.
I think you've confused two totally different issues. No one claimed that Doc remembering Marty from 1955 would cause a paradox at all. And I agree, details may be fuzzy for George, Lorraine and Biff...but certainly not for Doc. In fact, in BTTF2 when they return to 1955, Doc clearly remembers EVERYTHING about the events of 30 years ago!
As far as Marty in the game goes...even if he has the LP memories, he's still the original Marty in the sense that he remembers the original timeline, and remembers changing it. Marty is the ONLY person, as of the end of the game, who remembers the original timeline! His remembering subsequent timelines owing to the ripple effect updating his memory doesn't change that fact...
I have kept this to myself for about a year, mostly because the semantics necessary to describe this are beyond me...but here it goes.
From movie 2 onwards, there is an atrocious paradox. This is because of the trip to 2015, and the subsequent events that was caused by this. Basically, we have the following events happen in sequence:
-Doc and Marty go to 2015 where Future Marty was in a car accident.
-Old Biff goes to 1955, Doc and Marty follow and get the Almanac back,
-Lightning sends the Delorean to the old West, Marty follows.
-Marty overcomes his "chicken" phobia in the West and goes back to 1985
-Marty with new experiences does not get in a car accident.
This means that the 2015 from movie 2 is erased and Future Marty is no longer a loser. This means Marty Jr. will grow up better and there is no need for Doc to bring Marty to 2015. Biff never sees the almanac/time machine and he doesn't go to 1955 to meet his younger self. This means Marty doesn't go to the Wild West and never gets over his "chicken phobia", but this means that the 2015 with loser Future Marty DOES exist...
So, this is a complete paradox, as bad as there being a Carl Sagan in FCB's timeline.
It's actually not a paradox bro
Timeline A: Marty and Doc Goes to 2015 to Stop Marty Jr from joining the gang yada yada yada
While Marty and Doc are trying to get Jennifer from marty's 2015 house, Biff steals the deloreon going back to 1955 giving the almanac to his past self
This in fact creates timeline B:
Timeline B: 1985: biff is a crimelord, owns hillvalley...Emmit is committed and marty's father is dead....
Doc and marty then travel to 1955 to destroy the almanac before young biff can cause any damage (betting)
Once this is done,
The New Timeline Timeline C: Is created....
The Deloreon is struck by lightning sending doc to 1885,
Marty follows after repairing the time circuits making it to old west 1885 and getting over his Chicken phobia
When he jumps back to 1985, This is timeline D which starts his new destiny from there...
in common terms, he there wasn't a paradox because it was as if doc marty and jennifer never went to 2015 ... Doc, Marty and Jen remembers because they traveled through it....
It's actually not a paradox bro
Timeline A: Marty and Doc Goes to 2015 to Stop Marty Jr from joining the gang yada yada yada
While Marty and Doc are trying to get Jennifer from marty's 2015 house, Biff steals the deloreon going back to 1955 giving the almanac to his past self
This in fact creates timeline B:
Timeline B: 1985: biff is a crimelord, owns hillvalley...Emmit is committed and marty's father is dead....
Doc and marty then travel to 1955 to destroy the almanac before young biff can cause any damage (betting)
Once this is done,
The New Timeline Timeline C: Is created....
The Deloreon is struck by lightning sending doc to 1885,
Marty follows after repairing the time circuits making it to old west 1885 and getting over his Chicken phobia
When he jumps back to 1985, This is timeline D which starts his new destiny from there...
in common terms, he there wasn't a paradox because it was as if doc marty and jennifer never went to 2015 ... Doc, Marty and Jen remembers because they traveled through it....
That's not how the movie rules work.
The official different timelines are these: Back to the Future timeline
It all works for me quite well except for the ripple-effect, that should exclude Marty, Doc, Einstein and Jennifer in 2015. Why should they fade/jump/merge from timeline 3 to timeline 4? No one else, who is "left behind from a time travel" does that: Neither George nor Lorraine in BTTF 1, neither Doc or Einstein in BTTF 1... it just happens in BTTF 2 in 2015.
If every time travel to the past creates a new timeline that is seperated from the original one of the time traveller and if every time travel to the future is on the same timeline that you start from... this whole Marty, Doc, Einstein & Jennifer issue makes no sense at all.
Or we set up the rule: every person that time travelled at least once isn't affected by changes that are done by a different time traveller in the past. These persons are just thrown (or rippled) to the new established timeline (That would mean that Einstein is still Two Pine Mall Einstein).
Comments
Interesting observation.
That said, the FCB timeline is particularly interesting, since it seems to imply that George would be a coward regardless of whether his father was one or not, unless Marty intervened in 1955.
So I admit, it IS possible to make the case that Marty Jr. will be a wimp and messed up regardless of whether Marty is successful or not...except that in this case, Marty KNOWS what his son would have ended up like in a possible future and will actively take steps to ensure that doesn't happen.
There isn't a lot of evidence to base Marty Jr on, we only see him in one timeline. You could argue that in that timeline Biff has extra resent over George since George standing up for him turned both their lives around (george in a positive way, biff in a negative one). Marty doesn't seem to be the type to be bullied but it's quite possible Biff influences griff to be a bully. In the timelines Biff doesn't end up like a loser (twin pines, maybe biffhoric) he doesnt need Griff to 'avenge' him perhaps
I dunno...I suppose a lot depends also on Biff's daughter, Tiff Tannen (?), who's Griff's mother. We don't know how her life was affected by the change in her father's past. Hell, it leads one to question-did Biff marry the SAME woman in both the Twin Pines and Lone Pine timelines? Would bullying corrupt executive Biff and the wimpy mechanic Biff have the same wife and daughter? Hell, was Biff married AT ALL in the Twin Pines timeline? The Bobs lead us to believe that the Space-time continuum tries to keep things consistent between timeline, but I'm pretty sure the change in Biff's fortunes would significantly impact his family and his descendants.
It's not stated in the animated series who Griffs parent is. Biff Jr. is a rival to Verne and Jules but Griff is only seen/referenced in one episode; they go to 2091 and Griff is an old man in jail.
That's an intriguing theory...though I can't really see how the second 1955 trip would alter Biff's destiny to the extent of affecting his offspring. Biff's personality didn't seem THAT different between the Lone Pine and Eastwood timelines.
Well he did use the word 'butthead' in the eastwood timeline, something he doesnt in 1985 LP timeline. You could argue the second manure crash could have changed things; he stiffs Terry the first time around so Terry would either refuse him or demand the money up fron the second time around. Who knows what happened the first time around after getting punched out. It's possible he stuck around, went after George etc but got pre occupied once he had the almanac.
Also I think Biff has always been the same but he's nice around George and his family.
True, Biff may have been the same deep inside, but who he marries kind of depends on his social standing and what other people think of them. So the same woman who married Biff, the high school bully turned aggressive executive might not necessarily have married Biff, the high school bully who got covered in manure, punched by the 'wimp' George McFly and ends up becoming a mechanic...
Right. However since there is no proof of this we can just call it fate.
look at it this way;
in the biffhoric timeline its indicated Lorraine was his third marriage and his first two were celebrities (can't remember who the first was, the second seemed to be Marilyn Monroe). So unlikely griff is born in this timeline unless it's due to adultery.
The way I see it is when LP Marty goes back to 1955 in pt 2, I think the TP Marty would have ceased to exist. Think about it. The first time Marty comes back to 1985 to try and save the Doc from being shot (who is now the LP Doc that already knows Marty from the past), he see himself in the Delorean, running from the terrorists. Well if Doc is the LP Doc, wouldn't that now make that Marty who was about to go back in time, the new LP Marty? As a matter of fact, that whole scenario with the terrorists actually would have been altered because there would have been a major butterfly effect caused my Marty meeting Doc in 1955. There is a major paradox there for sure.
My theory is that the Back to the Future universe is cyclical. I think that's the reason Doc built the time train, to make sure that the changes he and Marty made would have allowed Lone Pine Marty to follow the same course. So, that's the reason the photo turned to grass instead of a tombstone, when it would have made more sense for the photo to just disappear, because Doc hadn't yet put up a new tombstone to make sure that Lone Pine Marty traveled to 1885. So, Lone Pine Marty didn't cease to exist either. He would return to 1985, and see himself leaving for 1955, then that Marty would return and see himself leaving for 1955, ad nauseum.
1. affecting people: when you go back into the past you can alter a persons course on the timeline, unfortunately you never know what effect you may have (thus the risk of fading)
2. affecting places: theoretically a building, monument, town etc, will always exist as long as the creation of it was not interfered with (Edna burns down Hill Valley, no Hill Valley in the future)
Also this explains some of the "paradoxes" in the movies:
BTTF 2:
Even though old Biff went back into the past and altered the timeline, he had nothing to do with the creation of the Sports Almanac. So Biff erased his own old existence, but not the existence of the book.
3. affecting things: This part will include the DeLorean, but its relatively simple. Its the same rules that apply to affecting places. The DeLorean will always exist in one form or another because of the simple fact that the components that were used to build it exist.
There has also always been a lag associated with how long a specific change effects Marty, Doc, or any time traveling vehicles, thus giving plenty of time to fix any wrongs that might have occured.
That's an interesting theory...but you have kind of contradicted yourself. You claim that Twin Pines Marty doesn't cease to exist...and yet you claim that eventually, Lone Pine Marty must go through all the events Twin Pines Marty went through. Its not really possible for them to exist as separate entities, unless there are multiple timelines involved (which the Bobs have explicitly ruled out). Because they BOTH can't co-exist along the same timeline!
Throughout the trilogy, the idea that is presented is that there is only ONE Marty...except when he travels to a time period where he already exists (1955 in BTTF2 for e.g.) or when he's in an alternate timeline where his younger self never started time traveling (Hell Valley, Citizen Brown etc.). The idea of, say, two Marty's co-existing along the same timeline and having the same adventures (almost as though one was playing 'catch up' with the other) is kinda absurd. Once 'our' Marty goes back and saves Doc in 1885, the tombstone vanishes from the picture. Sure, that may logically be a paradox, but that's with regards to OUR Marty's trip...its not like Doc has to worry about some OTHER Marty making a SECOND trip to 1885...
I don't like the theory that doc went back and added a tombstomb either. If he has to do that to preserve the space time continuum, what does he do about the original trip to 1955 in part I? Without that disappearing photo, things would have gone very differently; doc would have kept marty indoors for that week and even if Marty did go to the dance with Lorraine, it's the fading picture that eventually causes him to go on stage and play the guitar (this by the way is proof that in part II, that marty went through the same thing as ours. His picture clearly fades as well, otherwise he would have left after George punched out Biff). Or how do you explain the events of 2015? Doc would have originally gone to 2015 (likely october 26th) and seen Marty Jr. in jail so how does Doc replicate that?
One other thing to consider; lone pine marty has a truck so why didn't he drive it to the mall?
Well, you certainly make a lot of good points. I've got a set of 'rules' regarding time travel in BTTF myself-
1. The fundamental rule in BTTF is that there is no such thing as a predestination paradox. So, the effects of time travel can only be seen AFTER the time travel event has occurred (in meta-time). So, Marty may have influenced Goldie Wilson to become the mayor in the LP timeline, but in the original TP timeline, Goldie became the mayor without Marty's influence. Same thing with Johnny Be Goode. The one major exception to this rule is in BTTF2-the presence of older versions of Marty and Jennifer implies that their return to 1985 from 2015 was apparently 'predestined', though how their lives unfolded during that thirty year period clearly isn't.
2. The 'future isn't written'...which means that whenever a time traveler travels to the past, the time period he comes from exists only in a theoretical sense and is constantly fluctuating based on his actions in the past. This is reflected in objects brought from the future, such as photographs and newspapers. So the picture of the tombstone in BTTF3 keeps changing, based on Marty and Doc's actions in 1885, because the picture represents 1955, and 1955 is in flux because of the very presence of time travelers in 1885. Objects from the future represent the 'most likely future' based on the status quo in the past from the time traveler's POV.
3. Even if the information contained in newspapers and photographs changes, the objects themselves are never erased from existence. So, when Marty prevents his parents first meeting, the McFly children begin to fade from the photograph, but the photograph itself doesn't cease to exist-probably because the piece of film itself would still exist in the new timeline. Same thing with the fax paper Jennifer brought with her from 2015...the 'YOU'RE FIRED' fades from the paper, but the paper itself remains, probably because the paper itself would still exist in 2015 even if Marty's future has changed. This, despite the fact that since Marty never got fired in 2015, Jennifer would have no reason to bring that paper back with her to 1985. The circumstances behind the paper's presence in 1985 have been erased, the information has been erased and yet the paper remains.
4. If an alternate timeline is created, then the time traveler's existence or non-existence depends on the fate of his/her alternate counterpart. If the time travelers alternate counterpart is alive and well in the new timeline, then the time traveler can seemingly co-exist with his/her counterpart (but we don't know how long that could last). This is what happens with Marty in Hell Valley in BTTF2. But if the time traveler's counterpart is dead, or never existed, in the new timeline, then the time traveler is erased (which is what happens to Old Biff in BTTF2).
5. If a time traveler is in a time period which is not his/her own, and another time traveler changes the past, then the first time traveler will remain immune to the changes such that reality will seemingly transform AROUND him/her/. This is the only explanation for how Marty, Doc and Jennifer were able to make it to the Hell Valley timeline when Old Biff changed the past-they were in 2015, so the timeline changed around them. We see a very vivid example of this in the game, where Hill Valley fades around Marty and Doc while they're in 1931.
True.
I think its pretty obvious therefore that there is only ONE Marty throughout the trilogy, and ONE sequence of events.
Lone Pine Marty travels back in time to 1955 and is 'cancelled out/replaced' by Twin Pines Marty. TP Marty goes through all the events of 1955 in BTTF1, then returns to 1985 and is surprised by the LP version of his family, then accompanies Doc to 2015, then returns to 1985 only to find himself in Hell Valley, then returns to 1955, then travels to 1885, and finally returns to 1985 at the end. I believe he will get the memories of his LP counterpart eventually (and the whole 'chicken problem' may be a sign that the process already started), but I don't believe there is ever an alternate sequence of events involving a different version of Marty.
Of course, all the altered timelines DO raise the question of how much we saw on screen actually makes it to the final timeline. Well, we certainly know what DIDN'T happen. The first 30 minutes of BTTF1 could no longer have happened given that the McFly family was changed. The entire 2015 course of events are unlikely to have happened, given how Marty decides not to race Needles. The whole 1985-A segment didn't happen. Also the early part of BTTF3 where they discover the tombstone also likely didn't happen.
Lone Pine Marty would still have the photo, and Lone Pine Marty still would have saved his Dad from being hit by the car. The Doc he'd meet would be Lone Pine Doc, who wouldn't have any memory of the events since they haven't happened for him yet. So the photo still would have disappeared, and the events would have played out the same.
That's simple too. All Twin Pines Doc has to do is tell Twin Pines Marty to let things take their natural course. Marty can still be successful, but time has a knack of pitting Tannens against McFlys, so his son will still be bullied by Griff. Twin Pines Marty would know that Lone Pine Marty would come and make things right with his son.
I'm sorry, I really can't understand exactly what you're saying...but it seems to me that you're suggesting that Lone Pine Marty ends up restoring the Twin Pines timeline somehow...but all indications are to the contrary. As we see in the Game, 6 months later, Marty is still living in the Lone Pine timeline (the Eastwood timeline to be more technical, but whatever).
Actually there is plenty of evidence that 2015 is the lone pine timeline;
-the ledge doc broke in 1955 on the clocktower is still broken
-Biff clearly did crash into the manure truck (he states he remembers it and the deleted scene has terry still whining about getting stiffed by Biff)
-Biff states George McFly is NOT a loser.
-doc states that if you go into the future it is the future of the reality you are in. They clearly left LP 1985 so they'd have to arrive in LP 2015 (this likely explains why future Marty and Jennifer are still there).
The game does continue the movie's mystical concepts that the timeline preserves itself so that similar things happen. Marty and Jennifer did have a rendezvous in the FCB timeline, also FCB steals plutonium from the libyans.
The 1985 Jennifer from the movies is going to meet up with the Jennifer that was the girlfriend of the Marty who left at the end of the first movie in 2015. The 1985 Jennifer from the movies will remember the events since she already lived them, whereas the 2015 Jennifer in Back to the Future II didn't. Hence it's a different cycle of time.
I'm starting to understand now, but you're terminology is a bit confusing. For instance, its inaccurate to call the Jennifer we see in the movies Twin Pines Jennifer. We see Twin Pines Jennifer for a couple of scenes at the start of BTTF1. Once Marty goes back to 1955, that's the END of the Twin Pines timeline and the Twin Pines version of ANYONE! They are all replaced by the Lone Pine versions. Marty alone is still Twin Pines Marty because he's the only one who remembers the original Twin Pines timeline, since he's the one who made the time jump that erased it.
So really, its LONE PINE Jennifer we're dealing with.
And you're right that 'our' Jennifer would remember traveling to 2015, unlike the 2015 Jennifer we see in BTTF2...but then again, arguably, things will be VERY different for 'our' Jennifer in 2015 anyway (that was the very point of this thread originally!)
RIGHT! I use Biff as an example of how this could happen;
lone pine 2015 Biff is seen in 1955 despite the current timeline being the Biffhoric one (which its believed Biff doesnt live to 2015). Let's say in the Bfforic timeline Biff doesnt die by 2015 and he goes back to 1955, we have 2 different biffs at the same spot. Now in the eastwood timeline he goes back again, we now have 3 different Biffs in 1 timeline.
Honestly, I think the ONE thing someone WOULD remember for 30 years would be a time travel related event!
So even if Doc didn't remember ANYTHING about 1955, he WOULD remember spending a week with a boy from the future...regardless of whether he had a note or not.
The events of 1931 are different though...Doc might remember the Marty he knew back then, but Emmett didn't know anything about Marty being a time traveler, so he likely wouldn't equate 1931 Marty with being the Marty he meets later. Then again, I've often wondered if, in the final timeline, Doc begins to suspect the connection as early as 1955, when he first meets the time travelling Marty...
Since there is no real evidence to say that people remember time travel for that period of time all I can do is disagree.
I don't think that would make a great plot? The conflict is removed by them waiting for the ripple effect to kick in? There has to be a way for them to exist out of their timeline. Unless of coarse they are all in the same timeline but at different ages.
Why do you need 'evidence'? Its pretty OBVIOUS. Unless someone gets amnesia, they are BOUND to remember major events in their life from 30 years ago. And meeting a teenager from the future who claims that you invent a time machine 30 years later, and hell, actually SHOWS you that time machine...is DEFINETLY a major event, if not THE major event of your life!
See, I can agree with George and Lorraine not really remembering Marty from 1955 clearly...but Doc not remembering Marty DESPITE knowing he's a time traveler from the future?! Not a chance!
what do you mean by 'remember' time travel? Doc clearly remembers the 1955 events from the first film by 1985, he has the letter and clearly states in part II he helped Marty return to 1985. Biff witnesses time travel in 1985 (he just doesnt know it) and remembers that event in 2015.
Like I said, he remembers those events because he put the note together and read it in 1985. Plus Biff remembered seeing the time machine because when he saw it again in 2015 it was a reminder to him.
Anyways I don't really think it's a paradox and I think you guys are trying to hard to find paradoxes. Saying it's a paradox that Marty can stop the conflict between his son and Griff simply because he could remember going to 2015 is just speculation. Unless you can provide me proof that this happened and that Marty did stop the event then it's not a paradox. Sure maybe he might remember the events but the details could be fuzzy.
Okay, let me get this straight. Are you suggesting, that if not for the note Marty had left behind for Doc to put together, Doc would have simply forgotten about the fact that-
a) He spent a week with a kid from the future
b) The kid came in a time machine he invented (or rather WOULD invent), which he not only clearly saw with his own eyes, but even WORKED upon
And, after the events of BTTF3, we also have to take into account the fact that-
c) He read a 70 year old letter, in his OWN handwriting, from his future self who was trapped in the past; and used the instructions in that letter, to locate the buried time machine and repair it
I can definitely understand Biff, George and Lorraine forgetting about Marty over time...but for 1955 DOC to forget about it is impossible, barring a case of amnesia!
And likewise, I really don't see how Marty would ever forget about the fact that he once traveled to the future and discovered that his son was a wimp...
It wasn't a cliffhanger for a second series, or the beginning of a plot for another adventure since Doc and 1986 Marty went off in the DeLorean alone to some entirely different time. The ending served as a message to Marty that the only thing that really matters is the present, and the future is what you make of it (as Doc said in Back to the Future III).
Again, they may remember those events but the details would clearly be fuzzy. I still think it's lame to call it a paradox. I'm not suggesting that they did or did not remember those events without the reminders. I'm simply stating that unless there is evidence that they did remember and furthermore evidence that they were able to prevent it then it's not a paradox. It's just speculation.
Too get back on topic I think that Marty could be the original Marty in a way. But in a way he's also LP Marty making him a completely new Marty. So it's obvious he's the original Marty because throughout the movies we follow him closely. But consider this. The game doesn't take place directly after Marty returns from 1885 but a year later. So for all we know we we weren't playing as the original Marty. That would be an interesting plot twist for season 2.
Except that Marty explicidly states that doc's time machine made things better, he also remembers Clayton Ravine and the significance.
I don't know who's stating it's a paradox? Biff also clearly remembers crashing into the manure truck in 1985 and 2015 how do you explain that? Sorry but to claim the letter from marty is the only reason doc remembers the events ot november 1955 is absurd.
I think you've confused two totally different issues. No one claimed that Doc remembering Marty from 1955 would cause a paradox at all. And I agree, details may be fuzzy for George, Lorraine and Biff...but certainly not for Doc. In fact, in BTTF2 when they return to 1955, Doc clearly remembers EVERYTHING about the events of 30 years ago!
As far as Marty in the game goes...even if he has the LP memories, he's still the original Marty in the sense that he remembers the original timeline, and remembers changing it. Marty is the ONLY person, as of the end of the game, who remembers the original timeline! His remembering subsequent timelines owing to the ripple effect updating his memory doesn't change that fact...
It's actually not a paradox bro
Timeline A: Marty and Doc Goes to 2015 to Stop Marty Jr from joining the gang yada yada yada
While Marty and Doc are trying to get Jennifer from marty's 2015 house, Biff steals the deloreon going back to 1955 giving the almanac to his past self
This in fact creates timeline B:
Timeline B: 1985: biff is a crimelord, owns hillvalley...Emmit is committed and marty's father is dead....
Doc and marty then travel to 1955 to destroy the almanac before young biff can cause any damage (betting)
Once this is done,
The New Timeline Timeline C: Is created....
The Deloreon is struck by lightning sending doc to 1885,
Marty follows after repairing the time circuits making it to old west 1885 and getting over his Chicken phobia
When he jumps back to 1985, This is timeline D which starts his new destiny from there...
in common terms, he there wasn't a paradox because it was as if doc marty and jennifer never went to 2015 ... Doc, Marty and Jen remembers because they traveled through it....
That's not how the movie rules work.
The official different timelines are these:
Back to the Future timeline
It all works for me quite well except for the ripple-effect, that should exclude Marty, Doc, Einstein and Jennifer in 2015. Why should they fade/jump/merge from timeline 3 to timeline 4? No one else, who is "left behind from a time travel" does that: Neither George nor Lorraine in BTTF 1, neither Doc or Einstein in BTTF 1... it just happens in BTTF 2 in 2015.
If every time travel to the past creates a new timeline that is seperated from the original one of the time traveller and if every time travel to the future is on the same timeline that you start from... this whole Marty, Doc, Einstein & Jennifer issue makes no sense at all.
Or we set up the rule: every person that time travelled at least once isn't affected by changes that are done by a different time traveller in the past. These persons are just thrown (or rippled) to the new established timeline (That would mean that Einstein is still Two Pine Mall Einstein).