Movie Paradox that nobody mentions
I have kept this to myself for about a year, mostly because the semantics necessary to describe this are beyond me...but here it goes.
From movie 2 onwards, there is an atrocious paradox. This is because of the trip to 2015, and the subsequent events that was caused by this. Basically, we have the following events happen in sequence:
-Doc and Marty go to 2015 where Future Marty was in a car accident.
-Old Biff goes to 1955, Doc and Marty follow and get the Almanac back,
-Lightning sends the Delorean to the old West, Marty follows.
-Marty overcomes his "chicken" phobia in the West and goes back to 1985
-Marty with new experiences does not get in a car accident.
This means that the 2015 from movie 2 is erased and Future Marty is no longer a loser. This means Marty Jr. will grow up better and there is no need for Doc to bring Marty to 2015. Biff never sees the almanac/time machine and he doesn't go to 1955 to meet his younger self. This means Marty doesn't go to the Wild West and never gets over his "chicken phobia", but this means that the 2015 with loser Future Marty DOES exist...
So, this is a complete paradox, as bad as there being a Carl Sagan in FCB's timeline.
From movie 2 onwards, there is an atrocious paradox. This is because of the trip to 2015, and the subsequent events that was caused by this. Basically, we have the following events happen in sequence:
-Doc and Marty go to 2015 where Future Marty was in a car accident.
-Old Biff goes to 1955, Doc and Marty follow and get the Almanac back,
-Lightning sends the Delorean to the old West, Marty follows.
-Marty overcomes his "chicken" phobia in the West and goes back to 1985
-Marty with new experiences does not get in a car accident.
This means that the 2015 from movie 2 is erased and Future Marty is no longer a loser. This means Marty Jr. will grow up better and there is no need for Doc to bring Marty to 2015. Biff never sees the almanac/time machine and he doesn't go to 1955 to meet his younger self. This means Marty doesn't go to the Wild West and never gets over his "chicken phobia", but this means that the 2015 with loser Future Marty DOES exist...
So, this is a complete paradox, as bad as there being a Carl Sagan in FCB's timeline.
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
during part II the biffhoric timeline Doc indicates they can't go back to 2015 and stop Biff from stealing the time machine because it's a different timeline.
There are many ways to look at it, and this is one of the ways I rationalize it. The 2015 we see in BTTF2 is ONE possible future-a logical extrapolation of events as they stand on October 26th 1985. As of October 26th 1985, the most likely future was that Marty would get into the accident the next day, break his hand, and become the loser we see in the movie. Hence, that's the future the time traveler's see when they depart for 2015 from that date.
But on October 27th 1985, Marty chooses NOT to race Needles, owing to the lesson he learnt in the Old West. From that point onwards, the most likely future is one where Marty becomes successful. So, if the Delorean was still intact and someone jumped to 2015 the moment BEFORE Marty refused to race Needles in BTTF3, they would see the future we saw in the film; if they jumped to 2015 the moment AFTER he refused to race Needles (and the YOU'RE FIRED fax was erased), they would find a new future.
Another way to look at it is Doc's explanation in BTTF2; Marty's race with Needles is a crucial event (a temporal 'junction point' of sorts!) and that event being altered causes the timeline to 'skew into a tangent' resulting in an alternate 2015. Marty, at the end of the trilogy, is destined to live in this alternate 2015, while the 'original' 2015 of BTTF2 was erased.
Exactly. It clearly is the most likely future up until Marty avoids the race hence why doc travels to 2015 multiple times and everything plays out the exact same way until he actually makes a change. Marty or Buford or Biff easily could have died in many of their encounters for the remainder of the films, that would have avoided that 2015 but it doesn't. That version of 2015 has been avoided similar to how the current version of 1985 is altered in the Biffhoric timeline and later returned. But their clearly is evidence that the 'other' marty we see in 1955 is from the original timeline as well (seems to go through the same fading, also I'd think his last conversation with George and Lorraine would go differently if he's from the Biffhoric timeline where George dies in 1973.
Agreed. The 'other' Marty in 1955 IS the original Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1. Just like Old Biff is from Lone Pine 2015. And no matter how much the timeline is changed, this will ALWAYS be the case.
So, in the final timeline, in 1985, Marty grew up with successful parents...and in 2015, he became a successful rock star. However, the time traveling Marty in 1955 would remember growing up with loser parents, and Old Biff in 1955 would remember Marty being a loser who 'flushed his life down the toilet' in 2015...
But then again it's a paradox simply when they prevent the robbery from happening.
But yeah, a LOT of things in BTTF2 and 3 would DEFINETLY lead to paradoxes, logically-
1. Marty preventing Marty Jr. from taking part in the robbery; in turn prevents Doc from learning about it in the first place.
2. Old Biff giving the Almanac to Young Biff, which not only erases his very EXISTENCE in 2015, but also prevents the invention of the time machine ITSELF...thus making it impossible, both ways, for him to steal it and give the Almanac in the first place.
3. Marty and Doc, by burning the Almanac in 1955 and restoring the normal timeline, would also cause a paradox as their earlier selves would be unaware that they needed to travel back and destroy the Almanac.
4. Marty saving Doc from Bufford Tannen means there won't be any tombstone in 1955 for Marty to learn about his 'death' and have a reason to go back to 1885 in the first place.
5. And Marty refusing to race Needles might mean that Doc would have no reason at the end of BTTF1/start of BTTF2 to travel back and initiate the sequence of events that culminated in Marty's decision to refuse to race Needles.
However, these paradoxes only occur if you believe that it is necessary for stable circular loops to be maintained within a timeline...and the time travelers only recall information that exists within the final timeline. But that is clearly not the case. Marty and Doc both remember timelines and events which have been erased. For instance, Marty still remembers his loser parents. Both he and Doc remember Hell Valley long after that timeline was erased. If Marty and Doc visit a timeline, then even after it is erased, they will remember it. And if Marty can remember meeting a version of Biff who killed George, why can't Doc remember learning about a version of Marty who became a loser...even if both no longer exist!
Exactly. Paradoxes are impossible to avoid. That's why I think it should be done differently in the series. It's fiction after all.
Also I don't think the knowledge of going back in time would work. It's been 30 years and I don't think they would remember it. It's like how Marty's parents don't recognize him as Marty from 1955.
You would think that when he was 8 and set the carpet on fire they would find it suspicious because in 1955 he said "if your kid sets fire to the living room rug when he's 8, go easy on him". I know I would find it suspicious if it happened exactly when he was 8. Truth is they forgot after all that time. Memory does it work like that IMO.
Marty would have been 8 years old in 1976 so 21 years passes and that event may not happen in the new timeline.
The reality is that ANY time travel with the intention of changing the timeline (which is all the intentional on screen time travels except for Doc initially going to 2015 and any of the returns to 1985) should be a paradox.
To be precise it's the intention to change the timeline (Or accidentally changing the timeline). That succeeds. You could intend to change time but fail or change your mind.
Anyway it should not work like that in the series because it's too complicated.
Actually not accidentally; take part I. The only intentional change to the timeline Marty makes is telling Doc about the Lybians (which I'll get to in a second).
Let's assume for a second what would happen if marty from lone pine mall makes the trip to 1955; He never would have heard the story of Sam hitting George, he may or may not have heard about a mysterious 'Marty'. But assuming the picture still fades, he'd figure out pretty quick that him pushing George out of the way of Lorraines dads car likely prevents them from meeting. He'd still know about the enchantment under the sea dance.
As for doc getting shot, that plays out the exact same way in both timelines so LP Marty likely assumed Doc is dead and still would warn him. So no paradox in part I.
Thanks for all the inputs though. Now I have to think about other movies too, like Source Code, Frequency, and Time Traveler's Wife. OMG.
Agreed. In fact I believe Doc deliberately made it look like he was shot dead so as to avoid a paradox. However, he probably realised soon enough that Marty retained his memories from the original timeline...
But yeah, you're right...any attempt to intentionally change the timeline, which succeeds, would logically result in a paradox. And in BTTF2 and 3, nearly every trip to the past involves an intent to alter past events. However, Marty and Doc both retain their memories of the timelines they erase so there isn't really a problem from that end. The problem is-what happens to the Marty and Doc of the altered timelines who WOULDN'T have reasons to make those trips back?
Now, I believe in the case of Marty Jr., when Griff got arrested instead of Marty Jr., the timeline 'skewed into a tangent'...the original October 22nd 2015 (where Doc had got the newspaper on his initial trip) was simply erased and replaced by a new October 22nd 2015...in which Doc wasn't present because his trip to the future occurred before (in meta-time) the timeline skewed. The same applies for the entire future we see in BTTF2...that future timeline is erased, and I believe that in the final 2015, Marty, Doc and Jennifer WON'T show up.
When it comes to all changes pertaining to Hell Valley-well, I believe that its again a case of the LP timeline being erased in favor of 1985-A owing to Old Biff's trip skewing the timeline into a tangent...and Marty, Doc and Jennifer were simply shifted into this new timeline by virtue of being in 2015 when the ripple effect hit. Later, when Marty and Doc restore the LP timeline, Jennifer and Einstien are shifted back to the LP timeline because they belong to that timeline...in the final timeline there simply WOULDN'T be a Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstien during those late night/early morning hours.
Finally, when it comes to Doc's tombstone...well its difficult to get around the fact that there SHOULD be a Marty in 1955 who doesn't see the tombstone (since SOMEONE had to get the Delorean out of the Delgado Mine and read the Western Union letter...which would both exist in the final timeline). I believe that this Marty will see the picture of him and Doc by the Clock Tower, figure out he needs to go back, and will get 'folded into' 'our' Marty, who DOES remember seeing the tombstone.
I'll help you.
Source code is pretty easy since all the events are within the same day.
Frequency; kind of a hybrid of time travel theories. The timeline does get changed (not through time travel but communication with the past) and it indicates the future son remembers both timelines (which is Sn's theory of what should happen with Marty.
Time Traveler's wife; does not follow the same rules as BTTF. According to this film, time travel is already written into the timeline (much like 12 monkey's) so there are no alternate timelines or paradoxes. For instance we see the main character attempt to save his mother's death several times without success. He realizes whatever is meant to be is meant to be and the timeline can't be changed.
Frequency to my mind is the most unrealistic and convoluted time travel movie. Sure, the premise is very interesting, and the plot is great, but it really ranks WAY below BTTF in terms of plausibility...especially with regards to the memory issue.
I mean, let's consider the memory thing. The protagonist (can't recall his name) communicates with his father in the past using an old radio. This leads to the past being altered, and suddenly the protagonist remembers BOTH timelines. But why? What's so special about the protagonist that he remembers the original timeline when no one else did? After all, he's not a time traveler...he was in the present like everyone else when the timeline change happened...why is he immune to the 'ripple effect'? (they don't call it that...but you get the idea).
At least in Marty and Doc's case, they are actually time travelers, so it makes sense for them to remember their original histories.
Hey, now that you put it that way...it makes a bit of sense
I agree. In a sense those radio waves are traveling through time and Jim Caviezels character (named John) is the one sending them.
Sorry to dismiss it this early dude but I haven't even read it. There's basically 2 main time travel theories; pre destination and post destination
pre destination implies there's only been one timeline (see the 12 monkeys, terminator 1, or the time travelers wife) which has already had all time travel entrenched in it and thus makes it impossible to change the timeline.
post desitnation implies that the timeline CAN be changed as time travel is not entrenched in the timeline as we see in BTTF.
He analyzes both the Terminator and 12 Monkeys, you should check those articles out. In his model, the "predestination" model is effectively an illusion created when the timeline resolves into a self-consistent loop. Basically, every time travel story must have an original timeline that leads up to the initial time travel departure, and most stories do end up in a consistent self-resolving loop, and so the main difference between the apparently different models is just, which iteration is the movie showing us? BTTF-style movies tend to show the first iteration with more drastic changes, and Terminator-style movies tend to show a late iteration with more self-consistency, but every story must have an alpha timeline in its past, and the fascinating parts of his articles are his attempts to piece those alpha timelines together.
I'm a great admirer of MJ Young's site, though I agree that he is a bit TOO rigid in his analysis-applying his own 'replacement theory' on every movie analyzed. Then again, that's his prerogative.
MJ Young's analysis of the BTTF movies is quiet interesting insofar as it highlights most of the logical paradoxes in the movies, BTTF2 and 3 in particular. According to Young, BTTF1 is more or less plausible as per his theory, as he believes that the timeline will eventually resolve into a self-consistent loop indistinguishable from a predestination paradox (basically, we'd end with Marty going back to 1955 and becoming the 'Calvin Klien' he'd heard about all his life!) This even answers thew age-old TP/LP argument by simply stating that Twin Pines Marty would simply cease to exist in the next iteration of the timeline and would be completely replaced by Lone Pine Marty.
BTTF2 and 3 understandably fall apart in his analysis. He points out no less than TWO anomalies associated with Marty and Jennifer's initial trip to the future, and dismisses the whole Almanac and 1985-A subplot as being paradoxical enough to destroy time completely. And he believes the tombstone paradox would simply kill the logic of BTTF3.
So obviously, his theory is not the best theory around to explain the logic of most time travel movies like BTTF, but it IS an interesting explanation for the creation of stable time loops.
This Marty seems to go through the exact same tribulations as our marty did in the first film;
Remember when Marty sees George punch out biff in part one, he likely would have left the school and go to the clocktower immediately if not for the picture fading. Because his siblings are still faded he realizes he needs to ensure music is played to dance to. And we do see 'Marty I' still looking at the picture several times in part II. So this likely explains the so-called 'tombstomb paradox'
Agreed. I've often believed that the fact that BTTF1 Marty's photograph of his siblings was ALSO obviously fading in BTTF2 indicates that he is Twin Pines Marty.
In fact, the way I rationalize it, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty is Lone Pine Marty and the other Marty is still Twin Pines Marty. Because our Marty is Lone Pine Marty, he doesn't start fading when George and Lorraine almost don't kiss, because their almost not kissing before they finally do owing to Twin Pines Marty is the way HIS personal timeline is supposed to be! Whereas George and Lorraine almost not kissing is NOT part of Twin Pines Marty's personal timeline, and so his existence is endangered. The moment George and Lorraine DO kiss, Twin Pines Marty essentially becomes Lone Pine Marty in terms of causality. But the 'original' Marty in 1955 in BTTF2 is definetly Twin Pines Marty in terms of memory.
MJ Young doesn't factor this into his discussion because he simply dismisses the fading photographs/newspapers as being too 'unrealistic' (well, he's right...but they're damn realistic when it comes to BTTF's own 'rules')
Not sure the relevance of that here lol but yes you are right, George claims he does not stand up to Biff in episode 3. And it does make sense as george and lorraine act more like they did in the first timeline. Lorraines drinking, she doesn't get along with George, he's a peeping tom (to a different extent though).
The real reason George and Lorraine reverted back to their TP versions is because Marty's original 1955 trip was erased from the timeline. This is explicitly stated by Marty in Episode 3.
One thing i forgot is what happened to the clocktower itself in 1955? We know it's docs office in 1986, i remember edna has a recording on the history of the clock tower including it being constructed in 1885. Obviously the lightning strike still happens but is that when they constructed it to an office?
I am a layman (woman),therefore I might not understand the finer points and nuances of quantum physics/mechanics.
According to what I understand regarding Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle (Many-Worlds Uncertainty)and Schrodinger's Cat Paradox,nothing in the movie(s) BTTF is paradoxical because all possible futures/iterations exist simultaneously and every outcome is possible because there isn't just one singular timeline.
According to the many-worlds theory--once a decision is made and an action is employed--all the events play out in a certain way on that particular timeline and the 'observer' there has no knowledge or memory regarding what goes on in any of the alternate/other universes.
The BTTF movies are among my favorites and I have found that if I question things too much that it interferes with my immersion to some extent so I just have to allow for a certain suspension of disbelief.
Having said that--all of this may possibly be moot in the first place,as from what I understand--time travel into the past is not possible/viable,as nothing can exceed the speed of light (yes--I know about neutrinos possibly refuting that,as well as even MORE theoretical tachyons).It's also my understanding that travelling to the past would set up an infinite feedback,which would have dire consequences.
So,there's my two cents.
Probably.
Actually we have no idea how 1955 turned out in this reality. All we know is that Marty didn't show up to play matchmaker for his parents.
It really depends on how much influence Edna and Emmett had been able to exert on the city by this point.
We DO know that on November 5th, Doc had the vision for the Flux Capacitor, though he didn't realize it was the key to time travel...he adapted it into his symbol instead.
well i'm assuming the timeline wouldnt be that different that the weather could have changed
This is a good indication of the 'self preservation theory'; that the space time continuum avoids paradoxes and has similar events happening in different timelines.
Well, I'm not sure about the 'avoiding paradoxes' parts-since time travel not being invented is a HUGE paradox...but you're right about the 'similar events' part.
We can be certain though that even in this timeline, George got hit by Lorraine's dad's car...since that's the only way she would fall in love with him (without Marty playing matchmaker).
its sketchy about 1955 all we can assume is there was no marty, like you previously stated we dont know whether edna and Emmett were in power. If they were (lets say it was run the same way as they ran 1986) george wouldn't have been a peeping tom, that sort of thing would have been punished.
Even with time travel not being invented, you could argue the space time continuum still provided the avenue for that to happen. For instance some of docs notebook gets erased but not all did (though you could argue doc still invents the flux capacitor).
Maybe they were just starting to gain power and influence, but they hadn't taken over the city yet completely and established their police state. Obviously the process of establishing the 'Citizen Brown' state was a gradual one spanning decades...it didn't happen overnight!
What I'm saying is that it shows that just because one McFly learns to stand up for himself, does not mean that his son does. So, Marty standing up to Needles has no effect on Marty Jr.'s relationship with Griff.
True enough. Still I feel that since Marty, in the Eastwood timeline, has seen what his son ended up being in Lone Pine 2015, may well make efforts to ensure he turns out differently, and stands up to Griff. If he had the will to change his own future, you can be damned sure he will at least try to change his son's!
both valid points here; Marty learned to stand up for himself on his own without George. Look at the different timelines;
twin pine: Arthur coward, George coward,
lone pine: Arthur coward, george confident
FCB: Arthur confident, george coward
last timeline: Arthur confident, george confident