Difficulty level of Episode 6
Ok, after all the complaints here on this forum about difficulty levels and how the other episodes have been "too easy" (especially the early ones), I'd have to say that Episode 6 was a definite return to the "old skool", edge-of-logic, 'I'm completely stuck' territory.... Is this what people wanted?
I personally think it was too hard. It didn't spoil the game for me because I knew it was the end of the Season and I was up for anything, but if all the games had been that hard, I don't think I would have bothered. Wandering around being stuck, randomly trying things, is NOT fun (I'm sure Dave Grossman would agree). I ended up looking at hints on this forum about three times... Simply because I couldn't be bothered being stuck any longer.
I didn't notice that the bowling ball was resting on a "spoon" for instance. It made sense to me to use Bosco's "Earthquake Maker" to knock the bowling ball onto the switch... except Sybil wouldn't buy the US. Maybe scare her with the rat? Maybe scare Bosco's Mother with the rat? No.... I got completely stuck.
The same goes for Max's stomach (although the solution was pretty ingenious) and the final "battle"... (I needed the hint to sabotage another trick whilst being on another).
So, what did everyone feel about this new difficulty level? Did anyone here actually complete the game without looking at ANY hints? Do some people wish that all the episodes were this hard... or do many people think that this one was just a little too much?
I personally think it was too hard. It didn't spoil the game for me because I knew it was the end of the Season and I was up for anything, but if all the games had been that hard, I don't think I would have bothered. Wandering around being stuck, randomly trying things, is NOT fun (I'm sure Dave Grossman would agree). I ended up looking at hints on this forum about three times... Simply because I couldn't be bothered being stuck any longer.
I didn't notice that the bowling ball was resting on a "spoon" for instance. It made sense to me to use Bosco's "Earthquake Maker" to knock the bowling ball onto the switch... except Sybil wouldn't buy the US. Maybe scare her with the rat? Maybe scare Bosco's Mother with the rat? No.... I got completely stuck.
The same goes for Max's stomach (although the solution was pretty ingenious) and the final "battle"... (I needed the hint to sabotage another trick whilst being on another).
So, what did everyone feel about this new difficulty level? Did anyone here actually complete the game without looking at ANY hints? Do some people wish that all the episodes were this hard... or do many people think that this one was just a little too much?
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It's not because I didn't want outside hints, though. I went to go look on the forum for hints, but there were none at the time I looked (as I got the game from GameTap on the day of release). So I was forced to actually change my way of thinking about puzzles. That's the thing about the game. As hard as some of the puzzles were, all of them made logical sense.
Sounds like you took the right approach with the bowling ball - you had an idea and pursued it. I actually thought precisely the same thing as you about the earthquake maker to begin with, but when nothing you try works it can be a sign to come up with another inspiration, not stick stubbornly to an incorrect one.
I don't pretend to understand people who want an interactive movie out of Sam and Max. To me, that may as well be a matter of clicking to see the next scene for all the thought it entails. Puzzles make the game more entertaining, and hard puzzles make it more rewarding. The thing is, no-one who jumps to the walkthrough every time they get a little bit stuck is ever going to get the hang of solving more difficult problems, so kick the habit and if you don't enjoy the interactive element in the first place, stick to the cartoons and comics.
This isn't really "problem solving" though, is it?
Gamers have grown too impatient these days
You should never bother to play any of the old-school classic adventure games, if you think Episode 6 is too hard, I can guarantee you that they would frustrate you to no end (especially the Sierra ones)
Maybe for some (not me usually).
Personally I need challenge in a game, pretty much regardless of the genre. If I can just walk through a game without any real obstacles, I don't consider it much of a game. Of couse it might very well be a good story but that's pretty much it.
I hope they make the next season even harder than Episode 6.
Absolutely! If people don't want to think, they shouldn't play a game with puzzles in it. Playing games you enjoy makes more sense than changing those you hate until they agree with you.
I hope you're not referring to me. You'll note that I only completed Episode 6 today.
Hmmm, there's quite a lot of strong personalities in this thread, I wonder if a more anonymous Poll would have been better!
I don't need to be told how I should play a game I bought with my money. If I choose to use a hint or go to a walkthrough, it's my business. I didn't know there was a rule book on the proper way to play an adventure game. You play them the way that will give you the most satisfaction and let others do it their way.
No that was just a general comment on people who rush to the walkthroughs for adventure games..
I want to see games that are even more difficult. (it might be the length of the episodes which make them seem too easy since they are over quickly)
Episode 5 was still my favourite
Alll I was doing was asking a question
I can't speak for everyone.. but in my case it's stubbornness. I usually start with an idea or two (or more, who knows).. and if they don't work, well.. I tried. Apparently I didn't try hard enough, and I'm not willing to try harder. Doesn't stop my enjoyment of the game any.
That being said.. this happened thrice with ep6. Bit more than I would have liked (only once for the rest of the season), but.. I still enjoyed it well enough.
I'll shrug off any comments I receive in return. I admitted to my stubbornness.. which also means.. no matter what anyone says in response, I won't change. Pointless even trying to get through my thick skull.
Yes, I agree. Although I can't understand it, by all means use a walkthrough if you enjoy it more that way. Unfortunately some of the walkthrough-users here seem to feel guilty about resorting to that extreme, and would rather have the whole game made easier for everyone than try to improve their adventure-gaming technique or, if they don't want to do that, just carry on using the walkthroughs. Anyone can get hints on these forums, which most people will write in order of increasing helpfulness with spoilers. That way the people who want a challenging game get their wish, while others can customise the difficulty by deciding how many of the hints to take.
(I know Sam and Max can't die, shh
(Edited because I used 'yes, I agree' in two posts, and obsess over that sort of thing!)
I can agree with that.. sort of. And hey, I also agree with the followup about a 'god mode game'. That being said, this thread was about whether or not you thought the difficulty was too hard, too easy, or perfect.. not whether you wanted to see it changed. Both kind of go hand in hand.. yet not.
As long as I enjoy the game, no matter how I play through it, it's worth it. I don't want something toned down just because of my inability to (want to) adapt. Just felt I needed to clarify my position.. back to lurking!
That's good to hear, and I hope other people who'd like an easier game agree. Anyone can make a game easier by choosing the amount of help to receive, but it can only be as hard as it's written to be!
Edit: spelling of receive :P
The much-maligned lander-puzzle: In this case I'd say the issue isn't that the puzzle is too difficult but rather that it's too americanocentric and/or too old-fashioned. All the cars I've seen have had small pegs that you can't hope to catch on the blunt hook of a clotheshanger and also that completely dig in when you lock the door making it even more futile. Anyway, I hear that people who do have the right pre-knowledge find this a very easy puzzle.
Otherwise the things you needed to do to get the three talismans and the hat were rather straightforward, perhaps a bit too much so but not to an extent that I object. The bowling ball had me stopped in my tracks for a while but in a good way.
Getting the money for Bosco was peculiar since part of the puzzle is in the first act and another part is only possible in the second, but otherwise I do like this kind of classic multiple-step solution. No complaints here.
But then the Maxes. The red Max was way too easy to figure out. Bending that giant spork is the first thing to come to mind after getting the talisman, and with him standing so close to the ride all the time how can you miss that?
The blue Max was even easier. There's nothing else you can do with that remote.
The green Max puzzle was probably of appropriate difficulty, though I stumbled on the solution a bit too soon.
The finale wasn't all that difficult except that since the lander leg wasn't there before I managed to convince myself that I'd tried to saw everything in sight already. The incessant Nuh-Uh and the fact that you have to go through three death-traps to try a new action on the current one were mostly very annoying.
So in conclusion: while a good number of puzzles were just right, many were too easy, none were too hard, and a few had annoying design issues other than difficulty. I'd say the overall difficulty isn't on par with episode 4 and hence could stand to go up a bit.
That said, I was trying to use the coat hanger to hook the keys, but when Sam hooked the lock peg instead it was a bit of a "Why didn't I think of that?" moment.
Yep, you've got me confused with someone else. I'm aka ThunderPeel2001. Why were you wondering?
Agreed. Unfortunately, for some reason, a vocal minority have some self-created image in their heads that those of us who thought Ep6 was "too difficult" are just impatient or weak-willed. It's very insulting!
The puzzles in the original Hit the Road were often ridiculously obtuse. That's a flaw of that game. It's not me being "wrong". The first bad puzzle I can think of is putting Max's head into the electrics of the Tunnel O'Love......! If you look at something like Monkey Island 1, Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango or Curse of Monkey Island - they all offered the player an excellent challenge, but rarely fell into relying on obtuse and illogical puzzles to extend gameplay. That's a good thing.
Now "a vocal minority" just isn't fair. The debate seems quite even-numbered, really. And you're welcome to come up with your own idea of what it means to resort to a walkthrough, but I don't know what to call it, if not "impatience", that some people feel they need to finish the game in a single sitting. If you don't think it's impatience, then don't worry what we think, and carry on doing it rather than depriving others of the opportunity to solve those puzzles by having them removed in the future. No-one means to be insulting, I'm sure; however I'd be insulted to be told a game was sufficiently challenging for me and then find it was a complete walkover.
Your point about the other Lucasarts game is interesting because it sounds as though you DO want difficult puzzles, so long as they're logical, but I still don't see where anything was illogical in Episode 6.
Obtuse. I.e. On the very edge of logical. Difficult to figure out because it came down to using obscure items for obscure uses. If you're ever randomly trying everything in your inventory then the game has failed.
So a game has failed if you don't need to STOP PLAYING IT in order to progress? That's just dumb. Sam & Max is entertainment. The moment it stops being entertaining, it has failed. Period.
I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on this; after years (and years) of playing adventure games I've got pretty strong opinions on what makes a good one. Still, I suppose that's one thing we DO agree on:
Sam & Max: Season 1 was great!
I think that instead of making the games easy to cater to those who prefer that, they could include a full walkthrough accessible in-game.. or something like that.
As some other guy pointed out, everyone can make the games as easy as they want by using walkthroughs and hints but it can't be made harder than it was designed to be.
You could play it blind fold
I have to note that since episode four, I haven't seen as many people complaining about how "easy" the episodes are. I guess the poll results kind of back it up: Most people are happy!
'being stuck' in essence in most adventure games, and especially in ep6, is just a problem that requires you to try things together that aren't obvious and very far away from eachother
even if a person comes up with the answer, he is put down by the amount of walking from a screen to another, loading and loading and finally arriving to that location, now knowing if the walking was worth it and it is the right choice
like the unicorn in the microwave bit
(and why couldn't i use it on the lunar lander's engine?
even if it's the wrong answer, there should be a reason for it.. like have it launch the unicorn for a roundtrip of the moon and land next to sam, who comments that all the flying it did cooled it back down again, or something equally silly, funny, and offers the same outcome)
doing a dozen trips between moon and earth just felt silly, in the wrong way
perhaps the walking back and forth so much could be cut down somehow
like make the 'warp speed' knob actually do something and allow characters to simply teleport to a chosen location, given that they actually have previous access to it by travel logic
or give them a gadget in season 2 episode 1 that allows them to do this
like an Universal Fast-Forward Button For Fast Travel (tm)
so.. it doesn't matter if the solutions are far fetched, as long as they're not also literally so
It gets boring too fast just to try the n-th time pulling out the rat and hearing the same old 'naaah' for the n-th time, and you start to curse - what do you mean by NO? Maybe I want to give this rat to this dumb lady, and I mean YES! Why not, it's not THAT illogical? It's the Sam, the little guy without much moral problems, and he's just replying with the default cliche answers when trying to do cool stuff? Not the slightest bit too helpful, while, let's say in the same keys example, if he'd say something along the lines 'if I only could get to that little knob' or something less hinting, that would be much better.
So, my imhotep is, that it'd be great to improve the quality of responses; maybe while playtesting to notice the alternate paths that players are attempting to go to complete the tasks; but that's mostly because I think the moment that player is desperately starting to click everything on everything, the game is off its tracks, and it was especially true on this, sixth episode.
(and, I found the final 4-rooms-roundabout really boring. it felt as a punishment).