Blegh - the fact Max says something a bit more crude in the webcomic doesn't mean this should be carried forth into the game. Telltale is free to decide for themselves how the characters should speak and act. Whether or not it's suitable for minors may be an issue, although I'm personally not bothered by that; neither am I ever going to be offended by any swearing in the games, but that doesn't mean it's not tacky and unimaginative.
Well, when it comes to Sam and Max, one would think Steve Purcell would have the final say if the issue came up.
Well, not necessarily; this is the point. As Telltale own the licence, it's their right to do whatever they like. We hope and trust that doesn't involve altering the characters in some ridiculous fashion, but they could consider a modification necessary in order to fit the game medium. If that's the case, Steve Purcell's word is not irrevocable, because there are reasons besides maintaining canon for the decision.
I'm not talking about real bad swearing. Not constant f-bombs. But it seems like you guys are afraid to throw in a "damn" "shit" or crude joke ("hideous junk") every once in a while. I mean, as someone said earlier, if we have to look for/count the swears, ("Ooh! Lincoln says 'daayyyyyum' to Sybil!") then we're missing the point.
As Telltale own the licence, it's their right to do whatever they like.
Lots of weird assumptions and misinformation around here lately. Steve okays every big thing that goes into the games. If he doesn't like something, he'll ask us to change it. If he suggests something (for instance, Lincoln coming to life), it's given a lot of weight in the creative process. And if he really hates something, he can veto it. They're his characters, it's his universe, and we're licensing it from him. Fortunately, he is into what Telltale is doing with the games. At APE he told me that part of the reason he started the webcomic was so there would be some pure unfiltered Sam and Max on Telltale's site, whatever ended up happening with the game... but he thought the games turned out so well that there wasn't really that need anymore.
Right so. Sorry I figured a licence meant you had complete control over it; obviously I was wrong.
As for being afraid to put in a 'shit'... yes, I think they should be. I don't know why you feel swearing would improve the game; it's not Sam and Max's style, and it says nothing original. How are you ever going to make something clever or witty out of the word 'shit'?
Yes; things like 'does the carpet match the drapes' mean nothing unless the player has already been exposed to that euphemism, by which time it's too late! Care should be taken not to get too crude, though - if people DO spot the innuendos (innuendi?) and they're not very tasteful, it'll make the game less satisfying on the whole. Swearing shouldn't be abused for the same reasons.
Incidentally, I think one of my (now) favourite and most shocking over-the-kids'-heads moments is a bit in the cartoon Two Stupid Dogs when the little dog goes 'why do people come to these [dragon movies] anyway?' and the camera pans out to show all the cars bouncing up and down rhythmically. As a young'un I never noticed; watching it on YouTube not long ago I was simply amazed to see they put it in!
It is like the Justice League cartoons where there are subtle innuendos. Although, I am an adult, I did not get all of them and recently had to ask a friend what does "Brazilian" means in terms of sexual innuendos; ppl who got the joke in the toy/comic forums I go to, apparently didn't want to tell it to me.
In the ep, Wonder Woman tells the Flash she should date Fire because she is "Brazilian." She mentions Brazilian in a sexy way several times in the ep.
From what my friend told me, Brazilian as an innuendo means that they wax everything.
There are other subtle sexual innuendos in the series such as Giganta growing to 30 ft(she is wearing a skirt btw) where the Shade(below her) looks up smiling and says something like he likes his job or the view.
Once again, I admit defeat, "shit" is also just not for Sam and Max. But it really does seem like you're afraid to say "damn" or anything like that. I was surprised when I heard "ballsy" really.
it's political correctness unfortunately. I for one DEMAND more cartoon violence! let us return to the days of old disney with Goofy attacking Donald with a machete (yes, it did happen)
Also, there should be a public stoning of Jack Thompson, because everyone knows, even his mother hates Jack Thompson
I have no problem with 'damn' and 'crap' etc, no, used not as expletives but as parts of a sentence. I don't know why, really, they just seem a bit 'cuter' than the stronger stuff. I think you can imagine Max saying 'a whole bunch of worthless crap!' and it not being out of place (I don't know whether he ever does say that - it just sprang to mind as an example!).
I still don't understand why swear-words are such a big deal in the US... I understand that a "fuck" is somewhat harsh, and probably inappropriate for a kids' game, but what's the problem with "damn"??? I assume that people tend to get really weird when it comes to terms remotely connected to religion... and obviously more in the US than in any other country.
Anyway, I think that vulgar swearing (in the terms of "shit", "fuck" or worse) isn't really necessary for the duo... Sam is way to eloquent to be in the need of using these word, something his regular "Holy..."-sentences prove. And Max... well... he's far too extreme to have a simple swear-word do justice to what is trying to say... so, no cursing needed here as well.
My favorite incident of overzealous swear protection is in Escape From Monkey Island, where the characters all say "heck" instead of "hell," going so far as to say "heckfire" instead of "hellfire." I don't know what they were trying to avoid with that, since the game got rated T for Teen anyway, due to characters using alcohol and firearms.
What's even more hilarious about that is that the characters do occasionally say the word "hell." (If I remember rightly one example is from the campaign cutscene on Melee Island where Elaine is desperately trying to prevent people from voting LeChuck because he's a "demonic ghost pirate from hell" or something along those lines.) This leads me to believe that the overuse of "heck" in EMI is more an attempt to be funny than to avoid cursing.
I agree with Laserschwert that part of the censorship in words is because of religion.
I find the censorship for the nes version of maniac mansion quite amusing. Anyone read the list of the things they modified or change because of Nintendo of America? Ironic that they didn't change the most violent thing in the game where you stuff a hamster in the microwave and watch it blow up.
Censoring was quite often in NES games during the '80s. I mean Castlevania released a lot of censorship and remaining of things even though ppl knew what the items were. I think cross became boomerang and Holy Water became something that I dun remember.
So, TellTale, just keep going, and ignore any stupid censors afraid of being drawn into the depths of Satan's realm when swearing...
Woah, hang on, we haven't exactly reached a conclusion! The point of omitting vulgarity isn't purely to protect naive little people from the real world; it's just that it's not appropriate in the Sam and Max universe. I wish someone would actually explain how the inclusion of swearing is expected to *improve* the game, because all the arguments so far have been along the lines of "I'm not bothered with by swear words, so why not stick them in everywhere?"
If it's necessary, then by all means do it, but if you include swearing just to prove you're not afraid of it, it's clearly going to be out of context. Gratuitous cursing is the most pathetic last resort to which writers stoop when they can think of no other way of expressing themselves, and I'm glad Telltale are above that.
Anyway, I think that vulgar swearing (in the terms of "shit", "fuck" or worse) isn't really necessary for the duo... Sam is way to eloquent to be in the need of using these word, something his regular "Holy..."-sentences prove. And Max... well... he's far too extreme to have a simple swear-word do justice to what is trying to say... so, no cursing needed here as well.
LucasArts' Sam and Max 2 was supposed to have a bunch of naked hippies running around with their private parts blurred out. I have yet to see anything of that level of "inappropriate" (by US standards) in Telltale's game.
Not to mention that in Monkeys Violating the Heavenly Temple an airline hijacker gets turned into Silly Putty by being sucked through a window hole half an inch wide. Of course, it's mostly suggested and not shown...
I did notice that, Laserschwert, I promise! but your next post sounded like it was closing the debate, is all. After that I was replying to people in general, not you in particular.
I'd just like to quote Sheila from South Park the movie
Just remember what the MPAA says: Horrible deplorable violence is okay as long as no one says any naughty words. That's what this war is all about
Or something to that effect.
Honestly I wouldn't have a problem if there were swearwords in there, but that's never been the point of Sam and Max for me. It's completely out of character and game setting.
To me I've always liked the zany nature of the two. The caricature and satire of some things in society...Well that and some of the implied violence or threat of such. They don't need to actually animate it to make it funny. Actually it could be a lot funnier without. The bit from the demo which made me buy the season was that you had some good options speaking as Max, and the whole exchange with Jimmy Two-teeth dangling out the window. "I've had mercy, it was unplesantly..." etc. you know which one it is. Very much exactly the kind of Max'y humour I like. The screem in the background as Jimmy is "let go". You don't get to see him get hurt, but you know it's likely to, followed up by the innocent "I let him go" quote. Still one of my favourite bits in the series.
See? No animated violence. No swearing. Sure there might be a lot of implied violence, but that's exactly what I think is really funny. Not being an american I don't get half the references to other things anyway....and what's up with that carpet and drapes?
Off-screen violence definitely fits them better. It's kind of like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre... barely any blood in it, yet twice as effective as a gorefest. (and this is coming from a fan of gory films/games) It's no coincidence that Sam & Max is funnier than any gory comedic games, like TCM is scarier than any slashers.
Your mind fills in the blanks, and in an age where novels are being phased out from mainstream society, we need the boost to our imaginations.
I did notice that, Laserschwert, I promise! but your next post sounded like it was closing the debate, is all. After that I was replying to people in general, not you in particular.
I see... and you're kinda right, for me there's no real point to discuss about, because I think TellTale has done it just right in Season 1.
Honestly I wouldn't have a problem if there were swearwords in there, but that's never been the point of Sam and Max for me. It's completely out of character and game setting.
This sums up brilliantly what I've been long-windedly trying to say. You're right about everything else in the post, too; it's not merely acceptable to imply violence and gore - it's better!
Hmm, I was in Asda's earlier, reading through the magazines because I'm too much of a Scrooge to buy them, when I saw a review of Bright Side of the Moon.
Apparently, it is the "worst episode of the series", "completely unfunny" and
Hugh Bliss
is a "bland", "terrible archenemy".
All the jokes were "too random to make any sense", Sam picking up the spoon talisman for no apparent reason, and a comment on how adventure games characters pick up anything that isn't nailed down whilst he does this is "hopelessly ironic" (a certain reviewer seems to have lost the plot there), and there "wasn't a single good joke in the entire game".
Overall, Bright Side of the Moon is "worth nothing more than 52%", and was "not worth the trouble of slogging through the previous 5 episodes to reach such a pitiful and worthless conclusion".
According the UK PC Gamer Magazine. Never bought it before, and with reviews like that, glad I didn't buy it there and then either. Not planning on buying it in the future either.
So, what I want for Season 2: The continuation of every single thing that that particular review complained about. The humour, the puzzles, Hugh Bliss, everything.
Seeing as they seem to be the anti-version of pretty much everyone else who's played Sam and Max, I think it's safe to say carrying on with the great work you're already doing is the best way forward.
It's a shame that there'll probably be people aren't going to get Sam and Max now because of those trolls reviews, but at least they were too late reviewing it to put some people off.
I agree the PC Gamer review is a bit harsh, although the bit about the spoon talisman sounds valid to me. I don't want the game played for me, even if it's obvious what needs to be done (Max automatically saying his "better get the serious toothpaste" line is another example).
Telltale shouldn't ignore reviews that aren't kind to them, though. They should think of ways to please those reviewers as well as the people that were happy with the games so far. There's always room for improvement.
We read everything. We don't do everything everone tells us to do, because that would be insane and probably result in immediate mental, emotional, and physical instability (plus the point of making these games is to share our ideas with others, not to just make games to order for the biggest Design By Committee committee there is - the internet), but people are aware of the kudos and criticism the games get, and it's all considered when moving forward.
That's one of the reasons I stopped reading PC Gamer several years ago. Well, that and because the amount of advertisements was increasing. Even the advertisements weren't any good. Vedrman didn't make it any better, either.
I remember when pc gamer was good, had decent reviews, came with interesting demos instead of the patches you can download for free anyway, etc etc. Man, I miss the old days. *sniff*
No to swearing, it doesn't fit. Besides, theres no point. Swearing is usually only put into media to be "edgy" or "shocking" anyway and thats stupid. But, as I said before.. cartoon violence ftw! I love cartoon violence heh.
While it is great that the topic sparked much conversation, I must say in retro perspective that "Less calculated" was rather poor choice of words from me. While the point was that the theme/plot should be leading factors what the game should be not like, rather than would children imitate it. It is still matter of good planning and design, so it is always "calculated".
I think Sam & Max is currently a rough gem that needs polishing. I am sure much of it is currently addressed by simply further developing the engine, developers being more experienced with pacing of episodic content, having more time to develop the plot and setting instead of "fighting the engine limits".
Comments
Well, when it comes to Sam and Max, one would think Steve Purcell would have the final say if the issue came up.
Well, not necessarily; this is the point. As Telltale own the licence, it's their right to do whatever they like. We hope and trust that doesn't involve altering the characters in some ridiculous fashion, but they could consider a modification necessary in order to fit the game medium. If that's the case, Steve Purcell's word is not irrevocable, because there are reasons besides maintaining canon for the decision.
Lots of weird assumptions and misinformation around here lately. Steve okays every big thing that goes into the games. If he doesn't like something, he'll ask us to change it. If he suggests something (for instance, Lincoln coming to life), it's given a lot of weight in the creative process. And if he really hates something, he can veto it. They're his characters, it's his universe, and we're licensing it from him. Fortunately, he is into what Telltale is doing with the games. At APE he told me that part of the reason he started the webcomic was so there would be some pure unfiltered Sam and Max on Telltale's site, whatever ended up happening with the game... but he thought the games turned out so well that there wasn't really that need anymore.
As for being afraid to put in a 'shit'... yes, I think they should be. I don't know why you feel swearing would improve the game; it's not Sam and Max's style, and it says nothing original. How are you ever going to make something clever or witty out of the word 'shit'?
It is like the Justice League cartoons where there are subtle innuendos. Although, I am an adult, I did not get all of them and recently had to ask a friend what does "Brazilian" means in terms of sexual innuendos; ppl who got the joke in the toy/comic forums I go to, apparently didn't want to tell it to me.
In the ep, Wonder Woman tells the Flash she should date Fire because she is "Brazilian." She mentions Brazilian in a sexy way several times in the ep.
From what my friend told me, Brazilian as an innuendo means that they wax everything.
There are other subtle sexual innuendos in the series such as Giganta growing to 30 ft(she is wearing a skirt btw) where the Shade(below her) looks up smiling and says something like he likes his job or the view.
Also, there should be a public stoning of Jack Thompson, because everyone knows, even his mother hates Jack Thompson
Anyway, I think that vulgar swearing (in the terms of "shit", "fuck" or worse) isn't really necessary for the duo... Sam is way to eloquent to be in the need of using these word, something his regular "Holy..."-sentences prove. And Max... well... he's far too extreme to have a simple swear-word do justice to what is trying to say... so, no cursing needed here as well.
Is hell ever a verb?
STOP IT YOU HELLING FREAK!
I find the censorship for the nes version of maniac mansion quite amusing. Anyone read the list of the things they modified or change because of Nintendo of America? Ironic that they didn't change the most violent thing in the game where you stuff a hamster in the microwave and watch it blow up.
Censoring was quite often in NES games during the '80s. I mean Castlevania released a lot of censorship and remaining of things even though ppl knew what the items were. I think cross became boomerang and Holy Water became something that I dun remember.
After all, God is supposed to have a good humor (and looks a hell of a damn lot like Alanis).
Woah, hang on, we haven't exactly reached a conclusion! The point of omitting vulgarity isn't purely to protect naive little people from the real world; it's just that it's not appropriate in the Sam and Max universe. I wish someone would actually explain how the inclusion of swearing is expected to *improve* the game, because all the arguments so far have been along the lines of "I'm not bothered with by swear words, so why not stick them in everywhere?"
If it's necessary, then by all means do it, but if you include swearing just to prove you're not afraid of it, it's clearly going to be out of context. Gratuitous cursing is the most pathetic last resort to which writers stoop when they can think of no other way of expressing themselves, and I'm glad Telltale are above that.
Haha, sorry, I meant adjective.
To quote myself here:
Not to mention that in Monkeys Violating the Heavenly Temple an airline hijacker gets turned into Silly Putty by being sucked through a window hole half an inch wide. Of course, it's mostly suggested and not shown...
Well, they did say "Crap" on a few occasions... Nothing that big though. xD
Honestly I wouldn't have a problem if there were swearwords in there, but that's never been the point of Sam and Max for me. It's completely out of character and game setting.
To me I've always liked the zany nature of the two. The caricature and satire of some things in society...Well that and some of the implied violence or threat of such. They don't need to actually animate it to make it funny. Actually it could be a lot funnier without. The bit from the demo which made me buy the season was that you had some good options speaking as Max, and the whole exchange with Jimmy Two-teeth dangling out the window. "I've had mercy, it was unplesantly..." etc. you know which one it is. Very much exactly the kind of Max'y humour I like. The screem in the background as Jimmy is "let go". You don't get to see him get hurt, but you know it's likely to, followed up by the innocent "I let him go" quote. Still one of my favourite bits in the series.
See? No animated violence. No swearing. Sure there might be a lot of implied violence, but that's exactly what I think is really funny. Not being an american I don't get half the references to other things anyway....and what's up with that carpet and drapes?
Just my 2 of those crazy european cents.
Your mind fills in the blanks, and in an age where novels are being phased out from mainstream society, we need the boost to our imaginations.
I see... and you're kinda right, for me there's no real point to discuss about, because I think TellTale has done it just right in Season 1.
This sums up brilliantly what I've been long-windedly trying to say. You're right about everything else in the post, too; it's not merely acceptable to imply violence and gore - it's better!
Apparently, it is the "worst episode of the series", "completely unfunny" and
All the jokes were "too random to make any sense", Sam picking up the spoon talisman for no apparent reason, and a comment on how adventure games characters pick up anything that isn't nailed down whilst he does this is "hopelessly ironic" (a certain reviewer seems to have lost the plot there), and there "wasn't a single good joke in the entire game".
Overall, Bright Side of the Moon is "worth nothing more than 52%", and was "not worth the trouble of slogging through the previous 5 episodes to reach such a pitiful and worthless conclusion".
According the UK PC Gamer Magazine. Never bought it before, and with reviews like that, glad I didn't buy it there and then either. Not planning on buying it in the future either.
So, what I want for Season 2: The continuation of every single thing that that particular review complained about. The humour, the puzzles, Hugh Bliss, everything.
Seeing as they seem to be the anti-version of pretty much everyone else who's played Sam and Max, I think it's safe to say carrying on with the great work you're already doing is the best way forward.
It's a shame that there'll probably be people aren't going to get Sam and Max now because of those trolls reviews, but at least they were too late reviewing it to put some people off.
(Yes this is just nitpicking, but it could've been a lot of fun to see)
Telltale shouldn't ignore reviews that aren't kind to them, though. They should think of ways to please those reviewers as well as the people that were happy with the games so far. There's always room for improvement.
No to swearing, it doesn't fit. Besides, theres no point. Swearing is usually only put into media to be "edgy" or "shocking" anyway and thats stupid. But, as I said before.. cartoon violence ftw! I love cartoon violence heh.
I think Sam & Max is currently a rough gem that needs polishing. I am sure much of it is currently addressed by simply further developing the engine, developers being more experienced with pacing of episodic content, having more time to develop the plot and setting instead of "fighting the engine limits".