I agree with Master of Aeon. When you get the opportunity to tell Clem about it, the tone seems to indicate that Lee believes he killed the Senator and regrets it - and when she asks "Was he bad?" and Lee says "Yes", it sounds a lot less like Lee believes the Senator was a bad man and had to die, and a lot more like he's telling Clem what she wants to hear because he REALLY doesn't want to have to talk to her about his guilt right then, so I don't think Lee acted in self-defence either.
I agree with Master of Aeon. When you get the opportunity to tell Clem about it, the tone seems to indicate that Lee believes he killed the Senator and regrets it - and when she asks "Was he bad?" and Lee says "Yes", it sounds a lot less like Lee believes the Senator was a bad man and had to die, and a lot more like he's telling Clem what she wants to hear because he REALLY doesn't want to have to talk to her about his guilt right then, so I don't think Lee acted in self-defence either.
lee has these options in other places like when justifying bad shit killing andy/danny/stealing looting the car and giving her the hoodie...
lee has these options in other places like when justifying bad shit killing andy/danny/stealing looting the car and giving her the hoodie...
Much as I don't like arguing against my own points, there's a ton of things you can make Lee say that can't be sorted as truth. Even when he tells Hershel about his wife being in another state, you don't know how much Lee's lying.
Much as I don't like arguing against my own points, there's a ton of things you can make Lee say that can't be sorted as truth. Even when he tells Hershel about his wife being in another state, you don't know how much Lee's lying.
I would think though it would count as a "lie" in the stats (for that particular dialogue option). I have picked that option, and was counted amongst those who told the truth to Herschel (he seems to pick up on a lot of your other conversations with him, why not that one as well?).
Honestly it doesn't matter to me one way or the other as long as the reveal ends up good. I just hope Telltale doesn't try pulling something like the last Silent Hill did where whether he's a murderer or not depends on how the story was played.
Honestly it doesn't matter to me one way or the other as long as the reveal ends up good. I just hope Telltale doesn't try pulling something like the last Silent Hill did where whether he's a murderer or not depends on how the story was played.
Honestly it doesn't matter to me one way or the other as long as the reveal ends up good. I just hope Telltale doesn't try pulling something like the last Silent Hill did where whether he's a murderer or not depends on how the story was played.
Lee is a convicted murderer, but do you think he is actually a murderer or do you think he was wrongfully convicted?
he could have been covering for his wife, or set up, or he could have lost it and gone mad and killed the senator for banging his wife, or he could have planned the murder.
Either way he is still guilty. Even if it was not premeditated it is still manslaughter.
Chances are he did commit a murder because he seems remorseful about it.
I want Lee to be guilty in all playthroughs. His motives might change by each ending or the way its changed him can be different, but I don't want one ending to dismiss his crime entirely. That's just bad writing.
I want Lee to be guilty in all playthroughs. His motives might change by each ending or the way its changed him can be different, but I don't want one ending to dismiss his crime entirely. That's just bad writing.
He needs to be held accountable for the crimes he has committed against a society that no longer exists.
He needs to be held accountable for the crimes he has committed against a society that no longer exists.
Since you consider yourself an editor, I'll take the contradictory nature of your post to be a mockery of my point. Yes, I understand that Lee has no judge nor jury to face for his crimes. I don't however think that makes the entire thing moot. Lee's crime should show a flaw within him. In my estimation, it's that he is prone to taking harsh actions when pushed. His spirit being broken by learning of his wife's affair will probably fit nicely alongside the parallel experience of the traumatic events of the apocalypse.
If he loses too much and things he holds sacred are stripped from him, he just may commit another heinous crime that cannot be as easily justified as the simple killings of the St. Johns (who if you kill them, get off pretty easy). If for instance, Lee were to strangle Kenny to death for apparantly leaving Clem to die, that would not only sicken Kenny's remaining family, anyone else who sees and Clem [it would be too awesome not to have her see such a scene], that's exactly what I'd want to see from this.
Since you consider yourself an editor, I'll take the contradictory nature of your post to be a mockery of my point. Yes, I understand that Lee has no judge nor jury to face for his crimes. I don't however think that makes the entire thing moot. Lee's crime should show a flaw within him. In my estimation, it's that he is prone to taking harsh actions when pushed. His spirit being broken by learning of his wife's affair will probably fit nicely alongside the parallel experience of the traumatic events of the apocalypse.
If he loses too much and things he holds sacred are stripped from him, he just may commit another heinous crime that cannot be as easily justified as the simple killings of the St. Johns (who if you kill them, get off pretty easy). If for instance, Lee were to strangle Kenny to death for apparantly leaving Clem to die, that would not only sicken Kenny's remaining family, anyone else who sees and Clem [it would be too awesome not to have her see such a scene], that's exactly what I'd want to see from this.
Bravo. I see what you mean. Though I don't suspect the game will go that deep into the mind of Lee (or character) that would not be a half bad event in the game.
Yeah, I doubt there will be an outcome where Lee is absolved entirely, as that would be lame even if you're playing as a nice guy. Dude's gotta have something to atone for, right? But I think you do have some choice as to Lee's intent regarding the crime, and perhaps some specific details. Based on some dialogue options, it seems up to you just HOW guilty Lee is, in whatever sense inferred.
Need some one who can crack a few heads together if need be and You're...urban, right? Kenny knows? Or is his neck that red? Im glad ttg didn't tiptoe around the fact Lee is African American, its makes it more immersive because there are pricks out there ready to judge people based on skin...or previous convictions...double whoa brah!
right so everyone wants lee to be a murderer and be real evil s.o.b ? who iced a senator who was bonking his 'ex' wife ?
you actually want the game to tell you this ?
wierd
i'm ok either way and to have lee turn out to be innocent cos of how i play would seem a little daft i agree, but it would give some players a new perspective on lee imo.
right so everyone wants lee to be a murderer and be real evil s.o.b ? who iced a senator who was bonking his 'ex' wife ?
you actually want the game to tell you this ?
wierd
i'm ok either way and to have lee turn out to be innocent cos of how i play would seem a little daft i agree, but it would give some players a new perspective on lee imo.
There's a difference between killing someone and being evil. Premeditated murder is evil. Walking in one some asshole you hate who's been doing your wife and killing him in a blind rage is not necessarily evil. That's who I think Lee is, someone who made a huge mistake.
I think him being a sadistic evil murderer is against his character. Lee seems too nice in any set of choices to be that bad.
I don't know really. I'm trying to treat Carly with respect, and I'm trying to be truthful. With that in mind, if you talk with Carly, Lee can "honestly" admit that the whole ordeal was actually an accident. Hoping that my Lee is honest, I can't give a yes or no on this yet without more info.
For me its hard to say because we dont have much info on what happened with him. So i hope Episode 3 has something relating to that to lead on if he was Guilty or framed
It's going to come back to bite him in the ass at some point, and I suppose there's two ways to approach it:
Paragon: Be as decent as possible and hope it pays off. Renegade: Permit the deaths of everyone who knows. As far as I can recall that would be Carlie and Clementine as of episode 2, right?
It's going to come back to bite him in the ass at some point, and I suppose there's two ways to approach it:
Paragon: Be as decent as possible and hope it pays off. Renegade: Permit the deaths of everyone who knows. As far as I can recall that would be Carlie and Clementine as of episode 2, right?
Yeah but is Clem really gonna tell the group about his past. And Clem only knows as much as you explain to her in the back room of the drug store.
So I agree with what you are saying, just I wouldn't add Clem to that list with Carlie.
I have quite an ambivalent attitude towards Lee, based on two fantasies I've created whilst playing:
Scenario 1: his wife cheated on him behind his back, he found out and in the throes of rage killed the Senator. Doesn't say too much for his self-control (poor Clem), but otherwise understandable.
Scenario 2: Wife tells Lee she doesn't love him anymore and is leaving, shacking up with the Senator. Lee can't handle the rejection and figures he'll regain his manhood through an act of homocide. Again, doesn't say too much for his self-control, not to mention his character or maturity. Either way, poor Clem.
I'm kinda hoping they go with the latter option, where all the time you've been playing a bad guy despite the choices you've made. It would be a fitting act of redemption if in the final episode Lee sacrifices himself in order to save Clem (or, if you're of a subversive bent, if Lee sacrifices Clem in order to save himself - wouldn't that be a kick in the gut?)
I don't know if TTG would want to hack off their customers to that degree, but such an unexpected ending would lift the game head and shoulders over everything else, where sentimentality tends to drown plot under a sickly wave.
i'm sticking with this it was an accident, lee had no intention of killing but he had no choice
lee and his wife where having trouble at some point lee decided to reconcile with her find a solution their problem and fix it..
upon finding her in a motel (speculation) he is shocked to see her with another man (the senator) and lee argues and gets angry with his wife then tries to get to her, the senator stops him, they fight, lee hits the senator (speculation) with a heavy object or strangles him in 'self defence' , she panics screams and smashes a vase or glass bottle on lee to stop him..but its too late..
i'm sticking with this it was an accident, lee had no intention of killing but he had no choice.
That's pretty much how I expect the game to play out, more or less. I just think it'd make a better game (purely subjective, I know) if the carpet was slipped beneath the player at some point. Of course, I could just be weird.
Obviously he's guilty and with enough intent to pull down a life sentence. Everything else is mitigating circumstance. Ultimately, Lee isn't a bad person or the choice to spare lives wouldn't be given.
Obviously he's guilty and with enough intent to pull down a life sentence.
His guilt is pretty much a given. What's of interest is how the devs will follow through. I don't doubt there are many moral quandaries to come, but it would be nice to think the simplistic expectations of the average gamer will be subverted to further plot/character, rather than going down the Hollywood 'monochrome morality' route.
I hope they grabbed some pitch forks!Mod them three prong light weight and ready to go.Iam a Landscaper Gardner in the real world.:)Lee had that AXE to long.AXE murder?I have a feeling this all comes down to the University.
His guilt is pretty much a given ...but it would be nice to think the simplistic expectations of the average gamer will be subverted to further plot/character, rather than going down the Hollywood 'monochrome morality' route.
Given the assumption that the legal system operates the same in TWG reality, guilt is proven and not assumed and they had enough evidence for a life sentence conviction. Obviously Lee's prior knowledge of the affair is a sticking point for him to have mentioned it to Carley in the tone he did, therefore it wasn't a surprise or an act of passion.
In Lee's nightmare, you hear a woman laughingly say "I love you, baby" before the sound of glass breaking. If Lee was the one breaking glass to get in, he wouldn't have heard her say that so clearly.
I could be daft but it didn't seem particularly like it was up for question. I think Lee did it but it was a moment of anger and regrets it. Seeking some sort of redemption now by doing his best for Clem.
My decisions with Lee are leading him to being not guilty. Unfortunately the only thing we have is bits and pieces which only leads to speculation and assumptions. I wasn't a witness to the event nor was I in the court room during the trial.
In every single society the innocent can go to jail and the guilty can get set free.
I definitely think that it was a crime of passion. Do I think he's a bad man? No way. Do I think he's guilty? Yes, I do. But I hadn't considered the possibility before that he might not have done it, or that his wife did and he covered for her. It's a great thing to wonder about, and I'm glad you brought it up. Maybe TellTale will incorporate a twist like that. How terrible would it be for him if, after her death and the zombie apocalypse, he (somehow, magically) finds out that his wife set it up knowing that he would go crazy and kill him, so she'd be rid of both of them and free to live a nice, conniving life. lol
Having said that, I don't think that'd fair well in a zombie genre game. ...Although, could it be that he runs across her? End up moving near where she last was, maybe not even realizing it, and he finds her, alive? That might be an even more interesting twist - to see her reaction and hear her side of it. Though, I guess she would have to be killed. (Not necessarily by Lee, just in general. If they kept her around, it would probably end up being some weird drama versus this unique zombie drama.)
I'd love to see her reaction when she realizes that Clem is more important to him than her. I wonder if she would try to endanger Clem just to mess with Lee?
Need some one who can crack a few heads together if need be and You're...urban, right? Kenny knows? Or is his neck that red? Im glad ttg didn't tiptoe around the fact Lee is African American, its makes it more immersive because there are pricks out there ready to judge people based on skin...or previous convictions...double whoa brah!
It really does add to the game for me. The same way that, if played from a woman's point of view, there would probably be near-rape scenes and a lot of sexism. But I do think that Kenny honestly is just a red neck. But in the games my husband and I play, we both have mentioned to Kenny and his family that Lee is from around there and whatnot. So it could be that he picked up an old paper out of boredom and found out.
It's going to come back to bite him in the ass at some point, and I suppose there's two ways to approach it: Paragon: Be as decent as possible and hope it pays off. Renegade: Permit the deaths of everyone who knows. As far as I can recall that would be Carlie and Clementine as of episode 2, right?
I think it most certainly will come back to bite him in the ass, but you're forgetting depending on how you've played the game, Kenny and his family may know, also. Does Doug know? In my game I've kept him around, but when you go to make the choice he says something along the lines of no matter what happens, he thinks Lee's a pretty cool guy (or something like that). Does that mean that he knows, also?
Killing everyone who knows would probably result in everyone (eventually).
whose to say he didn't shoot and kill a zombie senator who had a heart attack while being with his cheating wife?
hehe, wouldn't it be ironic if lee shot a zombie in the head and the same bullet killed his wife before the known outbreak?
That would be an awesome reveal. The elderly, sick, and young would be the first to get sick. And who would guess that it was with the zombie virus? They would assume it was just a bad cold until it was too late. However, trials take a long time. Doesn't Lee mention being away for some amount of time? I can't quite recall, but I know he talks like it's been a long time. It seems like if he were a zombie, the zombie apocalypse would have taken place while Lee was still on trial (just by the rate it spreads).
But, if they could work it right, that would be a very cool and interesting take.
Also if you tell Clem that he was a zombie when you're telling her that you killed someone, later you have the option to tell Carlie that you lied about what happened. So who knows?
Lee probably killed the Senator to protect his wife after she tried to break it off and he showed up drunk.
That is a great idea. I hadn't really considered anything more than a crime of passion before discovering this thread. I definitely like your idea best. It would be nice to see Lee's flashback, where his wife, sobbing of course, confesses the affair, breaks it off over the phone, begs Lee to keep her around, then is nearly killed by her drunken ex-lover who shows up unannounced. Lee saves her, then loses her when he's convicted. Or maybe he even tells her to get the hell out and as she's leaving, the senator shows up and Lee protects her because, brokenhearted or not, he still loves her. It definitely has me thinking now lol.
If he did do it, it seems that he repents what he has done, otherwise, if he was a cold-blooded killer, he wouldn’t have started caring for Clementine.
Comments
lee has these options in other places like when justifying bad shit killing andy/danny/stealing looting the car and giving her the hoodie...
Much as I don't like arguing against my own points, there's a ton of things you can make Lee say that can't be sorted as truth. Even when he tells Hershel about his wife being in another state, you don't know how much Lee's lying.
I would think though it would count as a "lie" in the stats (for that particular dialogue option). I have picked that option, and was counted amongst those who told the truth to Herschel (he seems to pick up on a lot of your other conversations with him, why not that one as well?).
Exactly that.
I don't know guys, it kinda seems like that's where it's going.
all the more reason to bitch about it on the forums before ep5 hits.
Either way he is still guilty. Even if it was not premeditated it is still manslaughter.
Chances are he did commit a murder because he seems remorseful about it.
He needs to be held accountable for the crimes he has committed against a society that no longer exists.
Since you consider yourself an editor, I'll take the contradictory nature of your post to be a mockery of my point. Yes, I understand that Lee has no judge nor jury to face for his crimes. I don't however think that makes the entire thing moot. Lee's crime should show a flaw within him. In my estimation, it's that he is prone to taking harsh actions when pushed. His spirit being broken by learning of his wife's affair will probably fit nicely alongside the parallel experience of the traumatic events of the apocalypse.
If he loses too much and things he holds sacred are stripped from him, he just may commit another heinous crime that cannot be as easily justified as the simple killings of the St. Johns (who if you kill them, get off pretty easy). If for instance, Lee were to strangle Kenny to death for apparantly leaving Clem to die, that would not only sicken Kenny's remaining family, anyone else who sees and Clem [it would be too awesome not to have her see such a scene], that's exactly what I'd want to see from this.
Bravo. I see what you mean. Though I don't suspect the game will go that deep into the mind of Lee (or character) that would not be a half bad event in the game.
you actually want the game to tell you this ?
wierd
i'm ok either way and to have lee turn out to be innocent cos of how i play would seem a little daft i agree, but it would give some players a new perspective on lee imo.
There's a difference between killing someone and being evil. Premeditated murder is evil. Walking in one some asshole you hate who's been doing your wife and killing him in a blind rage is not necessarily evil. That's who I think Lee is, someone who made a huge mistake.
I think him being a sadistic evil murderer is against his character. Lee seems too nice in any set of choices to be that bad.
One less Senator. That's ok. Someone will be there to take the seat. Then the ZA happens.
"No worries", as we say here in Australia.
Paragon: Be as decent as possible and hope it pays off.
Renegade: Permit the deaths of everyone who knows. As far as I can recall that would be Carlie and Clementine as of episode 2, right?
Yeah but is Clem really gonna tell the group about his past. And Clem only knows as much as you explain to her in the back room of the drug store.
So I agree with what you are saying, just I wouldn't add Clem to that list with Carlie.
Scenario 1: his wife cheated on him behind his back, he found out and in the throes of rage killed the Senator. Doesn't say too much for his self-control (poor Clem), but otherwise understandable.
Scenario 2: Wife tells Lee she doesn't love him anymore and is leaving, shacking up with the Senator. Lee can't handle the rejection and figures he'll regain his manhood through an act of homocide. Again, doesn't say too much for his self-control, not to mention his character or maturity. Either way, poor Clem.
I'm kinda hoping they go with the latter option, where all the time you've been playing a bad guy despite the choices you've made. It would be a fitting act of redemption if in the final episode Lee sacrifices himself in order to save Clem (or, if you're of a subversive bent, if Lee sacrifices Clem in order to save himself - wouldn't that be a kick in the gut?)
I don't know if TTG would want to hack off their customers to that degree, but such an unexpected ending would lift the game head and shoulders over everything else, where sentimentality tends to drown plot under a sickly wave.
lee and his wife where having trouble at some point lee decided to reconcile with her find a solution their problem and fix it..
upon finding her in a motel (speculation) he is shocked to see her with another man (the senator) and lee argues and gets angry with his wife then tries to get to her, the senator stops him, they fight, lee hits the senator (speculation) with a heavy object or strangles him in 'self defence' , she panics screams and smashes a vase or glass bottle on lee to stop him..but its too late..
That's pretty much how I expect the game to play out, more or less. I just think it'd make a better game (purely subjective, I know) if the carpet was slipped beneath the player at some point. Of course, I could just be weird.
His guilt is pretty much a given. What's of interest is how the devs will follow through. I don't doubt there are many moral quandaries to come, but it would be nice to think the simplistic expectations of the average gamer will be subverted to further plot/character, rather than going down the Hollywood 'monochrome morality' route.
Maybe I'm expecting too much. Time will tell.
Given the assumption that the legal system operates the same in TWG reality, guilt is proven and not assumed and they had enough evidence for a life sentence conviction. Obviously Lee's prior knowledge of the affair is a sticking point for him to have mentioned it to Carley in the tone he did, therefore it wasn't a surprise or an act of passion.
In Lee's nightmare, you hear a woman laughingly say "I love you, baby" before the sound of glass breaking. If Lee was the one breaking glass to get in, he wouldn't have heard her say that so clearly.
In every single society the innocent can go to jail and the guilty can get set free.
How is that relevant? There's a slight difference between infidelity and murder, particularly without prior knowledge of the relationship.
Having said that, I don't think that'd fair well in a zombie genre game. ...Although, could it be that he runs across her? End up moving near where she last was, maybe not even realizing it, and he finds her, alive? That might be an even more interesting twist - to see her reaction and hear her side of it. Though, I guess she would have to be killed. (Not necessarily by Lee, just in general. If they kept her around, it would probably end up being some weird drama versus this unique zombie drama.)
I'd love to see her reaction when she realizes that Clem is more important to him than her. I wonder if she would try to endanger Clem just to mess with Lee?
Some additional comments:
It really does add to the game for me. The same way that, if played from a woman's point of view, there would probably be near-rape scenes and a lot of sexism. But I do think that Kenny honestly is just a red neck. But in the games my husband and I play, we both have mentioned to Kenny and his family that Lee is from around there and whatnot. So it could be that he picked up an old paper out of boredom and found out.
I think it most certainly will come back to bite him in the ass, but you're forgetting depending on how you've played the game, Kenny and his family may know, also. Does Doug know? In my game I've kept him around, but when you go to make the choice he says something along the lines of no matter what happens, he thinks Lee's a pretty cool guy (or something like that). Does that mean that he knows, also?
Killing everyone who knows would probably result in everyone (eventually).
That would be an awesome reveal. The elderly, sick, and young would be the first to get sick. And who would guess that it was with the zombie virus? They would assume it was just a bad cold until it was too late. However, trials take a long time. Doesn't Lee mention being away for some amount of time? I can't quite recall, but I know he talks like it's been a long time. It seems like if he were a zombie, the zombie apocalypse would have taken place while Lee was still on trial (just by the rate it spreads).
But, if they could work it right, that would be a very cool and interesting take.
Also if you tell Clem that he was a zombie when you're telling her that you killed someone, later you have the option to tell Carlie that you lied about what happened. So who knows?
That is a great idea. I hadn't really considered anything more than a crime of passion before discovering this thread. I definitely like your idea best. It would be nice to see Lee's flashback, where his wife, sobbing of course, confesses the affair, breaks it off over the phone, begs Lee to keep her around, then is nearly killed by her drunken ex-lover who shows up unannounced. Lee saves her, then loses her when he's convicted. Or maybe he even tells her to get the hell out and as she's leaving, the senator shows up and Lee protects her because, brokenhearted or not, he still loves her. It definitely has me thinking now lol.