I see Carver as Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral
What about you? I've been meaning to ask this since I watched the episode last night.
But honestly, when you look at things from Carver's perspective, you can sort of empathize with his cause and his vision. Yes, Carver has done some really cruel things throughout the series so far, which rightfully earned him the fans' ire. But if you see it from a neutral perspective, Carver should imho, be at least respected for what he did and be equally hated as well, so it falls to which side you pick.
Without judging him from anybody's perspective, Carver was literally a tyrant to many of us, yet he was also a tyrant that was respected and appreciated. To Clementine's group, it may seem that Carver was a terrifying devil whom the group really wanted to get away from. In the eyes of Carver's own group however, people respected him for what he did, for having the courage (or at least faking the courage) to carry out certain tasks that none would have had what it takes to handle, this includes Reggie and Boonie, who switched sides later on.
In regards to his view on weakness as a hindrance, I can see where he is coming from although I disagree with what he does. But in times of an apocalypse, that is probably what you'd chose to do, by eliminating the weak and saving the strong. Eliminating in this sense doesn't mean you have to kill, but it was Carver's way of securing the strong. It's also tied in to the basic theory of evolution I suppose. In the long run, hindrance is the only thing that would slow a group down and nobody has time for that. Therefore, I see Reggie's killing, in the most optimistic way, is that it was a mercy killing in the sense that Carver was sparing him from further suffering because Reggie has gone to the point where he simply lacked what he needed to continue surviving in a community.
In terms of respecting, I respect the fact that he is able to lead and command a group whilst still maintaining order, although in a way many of us may not like. As a leader, we can only imagine how hard it would be to lead if we went easy on everyone. I personally believe Carver is worth respecting because he has a devised a system and a routine for people to follow, to be able to lead a "normal" life amidst the apocalypse. His ability to maintain law and order in the community before the group's arrival shows that people actually respected him too. They may not necessarily like him but Carver isn't that all bad when you think about the fact that he provides shelter, food and care to his people in exchange for absolute obedience and manpower. In times of need, Carver is the kind of person we need to lead even though his methods aren't exactly the best. I mean, can you think of anyone who can make decisions on behalf of the group, continue to live up to it even though the majority may not like the decision that was made. And at that, whether he really had the courage or not, at the very least, he had an idea against the oncoming horde of walkers. He fortified his fortress in the best way and he had a utopia-like vision where human race may once again thrive and survive as a group. He does this by recruiting everyone and every new borne or child it seems, although I did not respect that the fact he does so through force, especially with Rebecca and Alvin's baby. In a way, we could have said Carver was "all we've got" at least for the time being.
Nonetheless, I still think Carver deserved to die. But if he were to be those characters who started off being mistaken as an antagonist and then people get to see his soft and weak side and people supported and accepted him for who he is, Carver would have seen his bad ways and possibly could have turned over a new leaf and be unlikely ally that we may all come to love in the series.
Does anyone share my sentiments?
But honestly, when you look at things from Carver's perspective, you can sort of empathize with his cause and his vision. Yes, Carver has done some really cruel things throughout the series so far, which rightfully earned him the fans' ire. But if you see it from a neutral perspective, Carver should imho, be at least respected for what he did and be equally hated as well, so it falls to which side you pick.
Without judging him from anybody's perspective, Carver was literally a tyrant to many of us, yet he was also a tyrant that was respected and appreciated. To Clementine's group, it may seem that Carver was a terrifying devil whom the group really wanted to get away from. In the eyes of Carver's own group however, people respected him for what he did, for having the courage (or at least faking the courage) to carry out certain tasks that none would have had what it takes to handle, this includes Reggie and Boonie, who switched sides later on.
In regards to his view on weakness as a hindrance, I can see where he is coming from although I disagree with what he does. But in times of an apocalypse, that is probably what you'd chose to do, by eliminating the weak and saving the strong. Eliminating in this sense doesn't mean you have to kill, but it was Carver's way of securing the strong. It's also tied in to the basic theory of evolution I suppose. In the long run, hindrance is the only thing that would slow a group down and nobody has time for that. Therefore, I see Reggie's killing, in the most optimistic way, is that it was a mercy killing in the sense that Carver was sparing him from further suffering because Reggie has gone to the point where he simply lacked what he needed to continue surviving in a community.
In terms of respecting, I respect the fact that he is able to lead and command a group whilst still maintaining order, although in a way many of us may not like. As a leader, we can only imagine how hard it would be to lead if we went easy on everyone. I personally believe Carver is worth respecting because he has a devised a system and a routine for people to follow, to be able to lead a "normal" life amidst the apocalypse. His ability to maintain law and order in the community before the group's arrival shows that people actually respected him too. They may not necessarily like him but Carver isn't that all bad when you think about the fact that he provides shelter, food and care to his people in exchange for absolute obedience and manpower. In times of need, Carver is the kind of person we need to lead even though his methods aren't exactly the best. I mean, can you think of anyone who can make decisions on behalf of the group, continue to live up to it even though the majority may not like the decision that was made. And at that, whether he really had the courage or not, at the very least, he had an idea against the oncoming horde of walkers. He fortified his fortress in the best way and he had a utopia-like vision where human race may once again thrive and survive as a group. He does this by recruiting everyone and every new borne or child it seems, although I did not respect that the fact he does so through force, especially with Rebecca and Alvin's baby. In a way, we could have said Carver was "all we've got" at least for the time being.
Nonetheless, I still think Carver deserved to die. But if he were to be those characters who started off being mistaken as an antagonist and then people get to see his soft and weak side and people supported and accepted him for who he is, Carver would have seen his bad ways and possibly could have turned over a new leaf and be unlikely ally that we may all come to love in the series.
Does anyone share my sentiments?
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Comments
I honestly had difficulty taking him seriously as an antagonist after he killed Reggie, and I was really interested by his character before, mind you. I'd say Carver just used the whole greenhouse ordeal as an excuse to finally dispose of him, as he supposedly screwed up so often. Adding to that, he got violent over stupidly petty things, like Sarah interrupting or Clem glaring at him. In Episode 2 he didn't even need to get violent to be terrifyingly intimidating. He also no longer had that affable charm he presented in the cabin. In Episode 3 I thought he came off as a psychopath, which disappointed me a little bit, but nevertheless that's the direction TTG went with his character. I highly doubt he would ever change his ways. Bonnie thought that initially, and look how wrong she was.
After re-watching his death scene and hearing his last words, apparently he raped Rebecca. He's a complete monster to me and I see no reason to empathize with him even if he admittedly has good leadership and manipulation skills. I *might've* been able to respect him before Episode 3, but after seeing the way he deals with people, I just can't.
But I've questioned myself over and over again, was Carver really worth hating? Or was he just someone I rather escape from and leave him and his team of zealous followers to their own fate. To me, Carver was scary, yes but I also think that scariness came from the fact that he needed it to keep things under control, even if it meant going through unethical means. If Carver couldn't have faked security among his own group, his power and authority would have been questioned. After reading up on my initial post, I felt that death wasn't his rightful punishment. Death was just overboard, and I felt that physically handicapping him was a fit punishment. An eye for an eye (heh) rather than death.
Nevertheless, I still hold on to my respects for him in some ways. Like I mentioned, to be able to lead and create a routine for people to live "normally" for a period of time, it's not easy. In an apocalypse, nothing is ever normal anymore. So I'm at the very least, grateful that Bonnie and co. had a normal routine to live with before Clementine and co.'s arrival. Think about it, there were food, water, plants. By apocalypse standards, that was close to living in luxury. In the most vicious way, he earned a certain degree of respect from me. I guess at the end, it's all a gray matter and it falls to which side you pick.
Even though Bonnie was proven wrong, she mentioned Carver's position was not one that she envied. Even though she feared him, she still knew that Carver could have live up to what he did simply because he had what it takes to lead the group, at least for some time.
Just to share with you.. There are a few other alignments that would fit Carver, one in which I think could be Neutral Evil as well. But I am glad someone sees my point and it opens up different possibilities and perspectives in judging a character. At first, I was just like the rest, I hated Carver for his deeds but seeing the community he formed in Episode 3, I had to give him my respects. Maybe there's something about him worth loving, in the most unimportant way.
Onto the subject of killing him, I have to agree that the crowbar treatment was unnecessary and felt like vengeance more than justice. However, he needed to be put down. There was no guarantee he wouldn't survive the knee shots, and surely he would come back for revenge on the cabin group and attempt to further track down Rebecca, after all he is fixated on raising her baby. He was a danger to the group, and I would've had Kenny put a bullet in his head if it were possible. I do think it would be eye-for-an-eye to kill him, since he's killed Reggie, Walter, (determinately) Alvin, and has tortured Carlos plus beat Kenny's face so badly to the point where his eye is likely unsalvageable.
And I guess I can agree with you. Carver's group had it made there, and a lot of that was thanks to his abilities as a leader. I think that was also one of the reasons the guards were so easily able to turn a blind eye to Carver's brutality and way of running the camp, they didn't want to lose their position in what was unarguably luxurious conditions to be living in for the apocalypse. (well, for the high-ranking group members at least, certainly not prisoners) So I'll give him credit for that.
After thinking it through, in some ways I did agree with his philosophy, but the tyranny and brutal punishment is where he fell short for me. Not everyone is going to agree with his methods or break down so easily into the Darwinist way of thinking, which would definitely cause a rebellion sooner or later. His ideas were far from foolproof, and the fact he met his demise thanks to a group of camp prisoners and rejects is representation of that.
Thank you for pointing out the possible consequences of not killing Carver. Yes, while killing Carver was not justified, it would create future fear and anxiety to the group should he be able to rise up. Again, I guess there are both sides to doing the "right" and "wrong stuff".
Maybe I'm reading too much in to this, but although members like Hank and Tavia questioned Carver's ability to lead, they stuck with him still and defended the fortress regardless. To me, it shows how much reliance the members place on him. Sure, he might not be able to lead but he was all they had. In times like that, you just wanna rely on someone even if their ideas or ideals are not solid. In a way, it's depending on someone because you've given up hope to plan for your own life, which is the way I see the rest of the 400 days character. And Carver, was that one person was that person who planned things and thus, you had that false sense of security. If I were Tavia or Hank, I wouldn't have to chosen to leave the fortress even if I knew Carver was losing it.
"Hey, at least Carver would extend our lives by a few more days right?" Why die now when you can die later. Maybe it hasn't hit them that eventually Carver's leadership would somehow falter one day, and the rest of the members would have to get everything together in order to survive. I think Bonnie foresaw this and realized it was better if she left the group, even it meant the possibility of her own demise.
I guess even in an apocalypse, human desire, in this case, which is freedom and, maybe the privilege to not be governed still stays strong, deep inside the human heart.
However, I do think she heavily relied and trusted in Carver before Clementine came around, she was the once who opened her eyes on how awful he was behind the scenes. She was in denial before, trying to justify him killing Reggie as an accident or that he had a good reason for it, or saying that Carver had a good side. He ultimately didn't have much of a better side, or at least his bad traits obscured it. The closest thing that came to it in my opinion was his care for the unborn baby, but in the end he threatened to kill it and Rebecca if she dared to leave again.
And yes, you're totally right. Sometimes you have no choice but to rely on whoever you've got around, or whoever is willing to step up to the plate, Carver in this case. I wonder how things will turn out now that Carver's gone. It would be odd if the remainder of his group just disappeared completely, and considering that they probably don't know about the despicable actions their leader committed, they may be out looking for revenge. I'm thinking Tavia would take over for him since she seemed to be the closest thing to Carver's second-in-command, and she was probably managing things while he was out looking for the cabin group.
I would have to agree with Lee on the notion that killing is never right but sometimes it has to be done either for the greater good or because the person is too far gone. Both apply to Carver, I think the power and authority went to his head. He acted almost pompous before Kenny finally crowbar'd him.