All right...time to post the best responses to Telltale's tumblr post. I'm not gonna put user's link on these quotes.
-"Remember when Telltale games was our favorite gaming company? Remember when we thought that this franchise was the best of all time, with a carefully crafted and involving emotional story, whose portrayal of a diverse cast of characters was respectful and purposeful?
It’s completely mind-boggling.
Not just because of this ignorant excuse of a host, but because of you. You sat by and laughed alongside him, you did nothing to defend your own character from this disgusting and offensive man who sits there laughing in delight that he watched an innocent girl be eaten alive. Simply because “she’s not normal”, simply because “something’s not right with her”. How fucking dare you.
This entire episode was a smack in the face to ANYONE who believed in you. And then you come on this show and rub salt in the wound. You are completely disgusting. You have alienated and marginalized your biggest and most loyal fans.
Well done, Telltale. Really."
-"You realize that this video makes your employees look like complete trash bags, right? Just making sure you noticed."
-"Loved the blatant intolerance Greg Miller shows for characters who “are not normal.” Also loved Mark Darin and Jason Latino electing to back him up rather than Sarah (who has been hinted at as autistic/anxious).
In all seriousness, this interview was extremely unprofessional, and there were several comments that were extremely intolerant of people with anxiety and autistic disorders. It was very disappointing to see such comments receive approval from Telltale staff, both in the video and by the way that you are promoting the video on Tumblr and Twitter.
There’s a point where it stops being fun and games and a harmless discussion of all those things, and this interview went way beyond that point."
-"I’m really, really disappointed in the way this interview went - the unprofessional way the Telltale employees told Greg that people at your company were excited to kill off Sarah, the way they let Greg go on with hurtful words that harm actual, real disabled players who looked up to Sarah as a symbol that they too could survive a horrible, end-of-the-world scenario."
"I’m so disappointed that you even let this happen. That you gave the casual fandom exactly what they wanted - a meaningless, pointless death for Sarah no matter what - and that you let people talk shit about your own characters right in front of you and your employees AGREED with them. I’m finding it hard to continue supporting you guys ever since you showed you true colors with this Sarah debacle."
-"TTG are so fucking gross and ableist. How do you even live with yourselves for posting/saying such garbage? How dare you people make fun of those who are neurodivergent? Thanks for making me (and MANY others) feel like we don’t deserve to live. You guys lost so many peoples’ respect. I’m (and others) are not buying season 3 until you guys publicly apologize, and not just the “oh, we’re sorry that you’re offended.” bullshit, either. That’s not an apology.
What a damn shame. I’m not excited for season 3 anymore."
-"You let an adult abled guy to laugh at the death of a 15 years old disabled girl. Your employees did the same, and honestly, this is disgusting. I loved your company so much, but you harmed me and so many people here by letting that disgusting man talk."
I am with Clem_is_awesome here, This thread had (for the most part) constructive and legitimate critisism of the game, something that is now totally lost in a flow of outrage that is for the most part not even directed at the right people to begin with. With Greg's response his intentions behind the comment are clear, and while I do not 'like' his presenation style he has a point from a rollplay->usefullness perspective.
The way Telltale represented Sarah was her activly bringing the group and or members of the group in trouble because of her problems. If you can not find a way to remedy this to such an extent that she does not do this anymore, you don't go the extra mile anymore to save her. That is not because disabled persons are useless and all better die as quickly as possible. It's because you are out of options with this specific person who keeps putting your lives at risk. The problem with Sarah in my opinion is that Telltale never gave us the change to explore what exactly was her problem. They wrote here as a dysfunctional character, who caused problems and thats it.
We were never able to ask her what she needed, try to find a way for her of dealing with her disabilty without endangering the group, because of the removal of all the optional conversations. Without the chance to make up your own mind about her, for anyone who does not indentify with her, all we get to see is the screw-ups the writers keep throwing her way. Atleast you knew Ben was trying to do the right thing, you never get the chance to find stuff like that out in s2, That is why I ended up choosing Jane on the balcony scene, the situation seemed to dangerous to try a save especially since it was her.
Not because she was disabled, but because of the danger it would put anyone else in. And the lack of options provided by the writing that things might turn out better.
I think you guys are talking about more or less quasi-professionals; what I was talking about were "real" gaming journalists who get paid regularly to write about games. And, since they work for magazines and papers and whatnot they reach a bigger audience reading their articles, and therefore, they are also the target for the gaming companies for wining, dining and sixtynining.
I've never heard of ZeroPunctuatian but I'll definitely check him out. As for Joe yeah he doesn't do many reviews anymore but he at least r… moreeviews the bigger games like Watch Dogs and stuff. His reviews are amazing but sometimes few and far between I will admit
It was convenient to make them gay though since they were supposed to die anyway. TTG got some cheap shots in showing that "even gays can survive a zombie apocalypse! (for a while at least, he, he , he!")
Hey I usually agree you but I think you're reaching with that. I don't think because they were a happy gay couple is the reason they died. That was to see if you wanted to save nick from Walter or not and they just so happened to be gay.
See how Sean reacts to the characters players hated...
Peter Molyneux and The Walking Dead’s Creative Lead - The One-On-One Interview
Sean Vanaman, the creative lead/writer for Telltale’s The Walking Dead (Season One) talks to the legendary game designer Peter Molyneux about playtesting and the reactions playtesters/players have to certain characters among other subjects in this one-on-one interview
See how Sean reacts to the characters players hated...
Peter Molyneux and The Walking Dead’s Creative Lead - The On… moree-On-One Interview
Sean Vanaman, the creative lead/writer for Telltale’s The Walking Dead (Season One) talks to the legendary game designer Peter Molyneux about playtesting and the reactions playtesters/players have to certain characters among other subjects in this one-on-one interview
Credits to thewalkingliability for making these.
"This is actually saying more about you now, than it is about the rendering of the character. Because you won't give her a break."
I am with Clem_is_awesome here, This thread had (for the most part) constructive and legitimate critisism of the game, something that is now… more totally lost in a flow of outrage that is for the most part not even directed at the right people to begin with. With Greg's response his intentions behind the comment are clear, and while I do not 'like' his presenation style he has a point from a rollplay->usefullness perspective.
The way Telltale represented Sarah was her activly bringing the group and or members of the group in trouble because of her problems. If you can not find a way to remedy this to such an extent that she does not do this anymore, you don't go the extra mile anymore to save her. That is not because disabled persons are useless and all better die as quickly as possible. It's because you are out of options with this specific person who keeps putting your lives at risk. The problem with Sarah in my opinion is that Telltale ne… [view original content]
What 'screw-ups' is she responsible for? Talking out of line and getting slapped? Not doing her work and Carver then over-reacting like a murderous baby? Screaming when her dad is screaming as he is eaten alive in front of her?
She may have been the same age as Ben, but she was nowhere as dangerous.
I am with Clem_is_awesome here, This thread had (for the most part) constructive and legitimate critisism of the game, something that is now… more totally lost in a flow of outrage that is for the most part not even directed at the right people to begin with. With Greg's response his intentions behind the comment are clear, and while I do not 'like' his presenation style he has a point from a rollplay->usefullness perspective.
The way Telltale represented Sarah was her activly bringing the group and or members of the group in trouble because of her problems. If you can not find a way to remedy this to such an extent that she does not do this anymore, you don't go the extra mile anymore to save her. That is not because disabled persons are useless and all better die as quickly as possible. It's because you are out of options with this specific person who keeps putting your lives at risk. The problem with Sarah in my opinion is that Telltale ne… [view original content]
Wow, my respect for Sean Vanaman went up. That's a writer who cares about his characters and doesn't cave in to pressure just because some loud, immature people felt offended by them.
It says something about the new writers when fans are able to show more compassion towards the characters than the writer himself.
Greg's apology just stinks of a Public Relations get out of jail card,he didn't mean this,he didn't mean that.....B.S. you knew exactly what you were saying,now your just backtracking to try and weedle your way outta dodge.It's good you had the balls to come on here and talk to the people affected but keep your excuses to yourself.
You have as much opinion as everyone else but your voice is heard louder because of the media you promote,the outburst of 'she wasn't meant for this world' and 'somethings off about her' will do you no good,but because you backtracked and called her a fictional character im sure this will clear everything up,pathetic response,i too don't accept your apology,your not entirely to blame,Telltale are aswell...
'there are so many people who are SATISFIED slapping Sarah'?????'so it's just like oh you wanted to slap her..' so many people who wanted to get rid of her in the office(telltale) , these comments are coming from the mouths of Telltale,not fans or reviewers,and for Telltale to favour Gregs Tweet should serve as a wake up call.
Bokor, we are on the same page as this being a matter of bad writing rather then inherent to Sarah being disabled right?
First off, Ben was not dangerous, just first misguided and then unlucky in his attempts to redeem himself, but his heart was in the right place and he reflected on his actions, feeling guilty and trying to better himself.
Telltale made Sarah a character with 0 reflection on her own behaviour. The writers made her act and reacts more like an 8-year old then a 15-teen year old. without ever giving an explanation other then the "she is sheltered". Putting a gun to your head at 15? you have to be locked in a basement to be that naive. But since Carlos clear cares for her and the fact she is present in the group to begin with discredit that possibility
As for the screw ups the most obvious ones in the final episode when she has already broken down and therfore makes others risk her life for her (Luke acts like a baboon with zero empathy there aswell so that does not help the believability of these scenes). Referring to the talking out of line and getting slapped & ruining the plants comment: Ofcourse she is not responsible for Carver being a madman and reacting like he does. But she seems to have 0 awareness of the threatening nature of a situation, untill she closes off, even when the player tries to warn her.
A disability might explain this, but for me and as it seems most of the people that did not identify with this, there is just to little to go on.
Part of my frustration might come from that though, Telltale made it impossible in most instances to interact with Sarah in any other way then you sending but Sarah not recieving, the 100% opposite of Lee/Clem relationship in s1. As the player you see this, but at no point can you challenge her or anyone in the group to find out why this is.
Even all this does not excuse to total non-reacton of the group towards her death though.
What 'screw-ups' is she responsible for? Talking out of line and getting slapped? Not doing her work and Carver then over-reacting like a … moremurderous baby? Screaming when her dad is screaming as he is eaten alive in front of her?
She may have been the same age as Ben, but she was nowhere as dangerous.
Yeah, this is a flaw as far as the game's current design is concerned. There's little opportunity to meaningfully interact with MOST characters.
However, Sarah immediately struck me as someone with a mental disorder precisely because she acts like no ordinary teenager. It's not simply "sheltering" that makes you act like an 8 year old, nor is it implied that Carlos' fear of her "ceasing to function" is an irrational concern. I think the writers were playing it safe by never stating outright that "she's autistic", but providing enough evidence to infer that there's something unusual about her mindset.
But demonizing her, and hating her for that? That's not sensible, that's irrational and silly.
Bokor, we are on the same page as this being a matter of bad writing rather then inherent to Sarah being disabled right?
First off, Ben w… moreas not dangerous, just first misguided and then unlucky in his attempts to redeem himself, but his heart was in the right place and he reflected on his actions, feeling guilty and trying to better himself.
Telltale made Sarah a character with 0 reflection on her own behaviour. The writers made her act and reacts more like an 8-year old then a 15-teen year old. without ever giving an explanation other then the "she is sheltered". Putting a gun to your head at 15? you have to be locked in a basement to be that naive. But since Carlos clear cares for her and the fact she is present in the group to begin with discredit that possibility
As for the screw ups the most obvious ones in the final episode when she has already broken down and therfore makes others risk her life for her (Luke acts like a baboon … [view original content]
I came back just a few days ago to see if anyone else had about the same issues I had with season 2. And just as I won't buy another TTG game again (not only because of the shoddy work on TWD season 2, but pretty much everything else - remember the update schedule for example?) and then I won't have any reason to come back here again either.
Yes. I think this may be my final straw. I'm just gonna stick around for a little bit to see if anything else happens, and then I'm out. It's like they don't even care anymore.
This is excellent - the guy knows what's needed, which is personal investment in order to like a game, and in this kind of game, that investment comes from the people you interact with.
Now, you don't need to like a certain character to get invested (like Lilly as he mentions) - you can flat out hate their guts. That is one side of the coin.
The other is how that character is treated by the developer. Had TTG had the same kneejerk reaction in season 1 as they had in 2 regarding characters and their future, they would have let the player strangle Lilly as soon as possible. They didn't, and for that they should get all the cred, becasue it made for better tension and character development to have her stick around for as long as possible (Now, I think they dropped the ball with Chuck who was a great character though)..
Then comes season 2... And this thing with getting people invested goes out the window. Absolutely no regard for character development ("eh, we'll just use the old characters with new names. Who'll notice?"), and that is what is piled on top of the otherwise shoddy and lazy writing and the total lack of focus. Hell, even Carver was reduced to pretty much a one-episode villain. So much potential wasted right there.
See how Sean reacts to the characters players hated...
Peter Molyneux and The Walking Dead’s Creative Lead - The On… moree-On-One Interview
Sean Vanaman, the creative lead/writer for Telltale’s The Walking Dead (Season One) talks to the legendary game designer Peter Molyneux about playtesting and the reactions playtesters/players have to certain characters among other subjects in this one-on-one interview
Credits to thewalkingliability for making these.
"This is actually saying more about you now, than it is about the rendering of the character. Because you won't give her a break."
Daily reminder that the social justice warriors are firing on all cylinders right now, and they will never be satisfied unless Greg and telltale staff are sacrificed and shed blood for their sins against a fictional character.
Hey, everyone--
It's me, Greg Miller from IGN! I just wrote a big ol' blog about everything over on IGN (http://www.ign.com/blogs/greggy-… moreign/2014/08/10/the-walking-dead-sarah-and-normal/), but I wanted to make sure y'all saw it, too. I'll stick around to answer comments...
Hey--
So, today's been a mix of a lot of different Tweets. Lots about Christine Lakin on The GameOverGreggy Show and some about Twitch, but then, there's been a couple about yesterday's Playing Dead episode and Sarah.
At first, I was pretty stoked; no one ever Tweets me about Playing Dead! But a few of them got really combative, and I was a bit lost. Finally, someone linked me to this Tumblr about it, which you should really read for the rest of this post to make sense.
I'll wait.
OK. Caught up? Outside of disagreeing/being pretty bummed about being referred to as "an asshole to female characters" and a "shitpile," I understand where Marissa (and the handf… [view original content]
nah,it's about trying to remain 'human' and not turning into a Carver type character,where People who are seen as weak are punished with death,like Carver's/Jane's/Greg's/Telltale's comments reflect.
Daily reminder that the social justice warriors are firing on all cylinders right now, and they will never be satisfied unless Greg and tell… moretale staff are sacrificed and shed blood for their sins against a fictional character.
More blood for the blood god
Sarah was useless. So was Ben. Some people enjoyed the fact they were removed. People cheer when character's on tv they hate die. It's a disconnect between fictional situations and reality. My gf has laughed while running someone over in GTA before, but I don't think that means she's a homicidal psychopath. Also he explained that by 'not normal', he thought of her as just really sheltered. But no, that's not enough, we need a parade for disabled peoples rights now, all because we love to blow things out of proportion. Not just blow it up, but nuke it. Nuke it from orbit, with no survivors. Because Greg and Telltale hate disabled people and think they should die. Right?
nah,it's about trying to remain 'human' and not turning into a Carver type character,where People who are seen as weak are punished with death,like Carver's/Jane's/Greg's/Telltale's comments reflect.
Sarah was useless. So was Ben. Some people enjoyed the fact they were removed. People cheer when character's on tv they hate die. It's a dis… moreconnect between fictional situations and reality. My gf has laughed while running someone over in GTA before, but I don't think that means she's a homicidal psychopath. Also he explained that by 'not normal', he thought of her as just really sheltered. But no, that's not enough, we need a parade for disabled peoples rights now, all because we love to blow things out of proportion. Not just blow it up, but nuke it. Nuke it from orbit, with no survivors. Because Greg and Telltale hate disabled people and think they should die. Right?
It's good you had the balls to come on here and talk to the people affected
He didn't even talk to anyone like he said he would in his post, he only copy and pasted his blog post and then replied to one person that was in favor of his "apology".
Greg's apology just stinks of a Public Relations get out of jail card,he didn't mean this,he didn't mean that.....B.S. you knew exactly what… more you were saying,now your just backtracking to try and weedle your way outta dodge.It's good you had the balls to come on here and talk to the people affected but keep your excuses to yourself.
You have as much opinion as everyone else but your voice is heard louder because of the media you promote,the outburst of 'she wasn't meant for this world' and 'somethings off about her' will do you no good,but because you backtracked and called her a fictional character im sure this will clear everything up,pathetic response,i too don't accept your apology,your not entirely to blame,Telltale are aswell...
'there are so many people who are SATISFIED slapping Sarah'?????'so it's just like oh you wanted to slap her..' so many people who wanted to get rid of her in the office(telltale) , these comments are comin… [view original content]
In other words - as you and apparently TTG reason - it doesn't really matter what you do as long as it's just a game.
So tell me, why do we have a game where it is ok to have a mentally disabled girl die a gruesome death and have a laugh at it - when we don't have a game where you take command of Auschwitz?
Warge is exaggerating, but not ridiculously so. The Nazis believing that only a tiny portion of the able-bodied, able-minded deserved to live is one of the reasons why they remain so reviled.
The difference is, this game is centered around a fictional apocalypse where terrible things happen to the good, the bad, the strong and the weak all the same. Having a 'laugh at it' is up to the player, and not the aim of Telltale.
I find that different than playing a game about a real life travesty about the genocide of Jews
In other words - as you and apparently TTG reason - it doesn't really matter what you do as long as it's just a game.
So tell me, why do … morewe have a game where it is ok to have a mentally disabled girl die a gruesome death and have a laugh at it - when we don't have a game where you take command of Auschwitz?
Warge is exaggerating, but not ridiculously so. The Nazis believing that only a tiny portion of the able-bodied, able-minded deserved to live is one of the reasons why they remain so reviled.
That person was me . In all honesty though, I still don't completely forgive him. I kind of respect that he at least acknowledged it, unlike Telltale, but it will take more for me to completely forgive him.
It's good you had the balls to come on here and talk to the people affected
He didn't even talk to anyone like he said he would in h… moreis post, he only copy and pasted his blog post and then replied to one person that was in favor of his "apology".
Self preservation. An injured calf will often times be abandoned by the herd. These are the most dire, basic times of humanity's survival. Also lets not forget Jane's relationship with her sister was a large, and often times overlooked theme setup for the episode. It's emphasized that some people just aren't suited for living in the apocalypse, because surviving is a horrible nightmare that you can't wake up from. It puts you in situations that makes you less of a person. Jane abandoned her sister, much like Clem (forced to or not) abandons Sarah.
Just saying that there's a reason why writing off 'weak' people as unworthy of life is often a villainous mindset.
Then again, the Nazis … morethemselves made Eugenics unpopular for America and Europe. It doesn't mean the belief in 'survival of the fittest' has died out.
When you're depressed, you want an end to all the pain. But even a lot of suicidal people who survive their attempts find out that they don't really want to die. We see this with Ben, who wanted to die because of his misery yet realized in his last moments that dying sucks and he actually didn't want to suffer.
It's a hard decision. But there needs to be a reason for people to keep pressing on. You can try to motivate Ben to atone for his problems, or tell Nick that he still has his group to rely on, or tell Sarah that she's continuing her father's legacy, or remind Kenny of his duty, or even have Clementine press on for whatever reason you can imagine (Wellington, reunion with Christa, a vague dream of society returning to normal). Point is, writing people off for dead is often not actually in their best self-interest.
To credit the writers, you can actually have Clem call out Jane for dismissing her by pointing out that Sarah isn't suicidally depressed and call her out for letting her sister be torn apart. It's no mercy - being eaten alive is probably one of the most horrible and primal deaths a human can suffer. It's no wonder Ben was written to be afraid of that.
One more thing - the excuse of 'self-preservation'. That's why Kenny panicked and let Shawn die. That's why Ben almost let Clementine get eaten. It might be natural and understandable, but it's also not something to take pride in. Bravery may be stupid, but it's valued because it's about genuinely risking oneself for others. (Though since this is all a video-game, I suppose the impact of this may be diminished for a lot of players. Me included.)
Self preservation. An injured calf will often times be abandoned by the herd. These are the most dire, basic times of humanity's survival. A… morelso lets not forget Jane's relationship with her sister was a large, and often times overlooked theme setup for the episode. It's emphasized that some people just aren't suited for living in the apocalypse, because surviving is a horrible nightmare that you can't wake up from. It puts you in situations that makes you less of a person. Jane abandoned her sister, much like Clem (forced to or not) abandons Sarah.
From that interview, I personally got the impression less that Telltale's representatives were 100% in agreement with Greg and more that they didn't have the conviction to argue with him about it. If he had said how sad he was to see Sarah die and how he wished it could have been different, they would have run with that just as eagerly and given examples of people from Telltale sharing the same sentiment. I get the sense they aren't all that invested in their characters, certainly not enough to argue in their defense.
I find them more lacking in character than actually sadistic. A louder and more obnoxious person like Greg can drag such people along with them into saying all kinds of horrible things.That still makes them contemptible, but in a different way.
Well said. I think it's a combination of lack of investment, as well as not being assertive (and fear of ruining their relations with IGN), that let them come across as weak for not questioning or calling out Greg for being a creep.
What a shitstorm. Wow.
From that interview, I personally got the impression less that Telltale's representatives were 100% in agreement w… moreith Greg and more that they didn't have the conviction to argue with him about it. If he had said how sad he was to see Sarah die and how he wished it could have been different, they would have run with that just as eagerly and given examples of people from Telltale sharing the same sentiment. I get the sense they aren't all that invested in their characters, certainly not enough to argue in their defense.
I find them more lacking in character than actually sadistic. A louder and more obnoxious person like Greg can drag such people along with them into saying all kinds of horrible things.That still makes them contemptible, but in a different way.
TTG Is horrible killing off sarah like boom like she is nothing man screw this **** (Sorry for language) but Season 2 is so Bad compared to Season 1 (The best TWD Game) like really the episodes TO short and feels rushed in Season 1 The game felt big and the episodes were so long and you could do alot of things but Season 2 feels to rushed and not complete to me i mean it's good but wel.....Terrible compared to Season 1 i mean Season 2 had barely alot of gameplay to me compared to Season 1 and hell i bet Episode 5 will be Super Short
Your opinion is fair enough. I'd be surprised with the number of downvotes (high but still under upvotes) but even partially defending Greg Miller (urgh) in this heated environment would cause that.
Still, we value all opinions on this thread so no matter where you stand keep giving them, people.
I am with Clem_is_awesome here, This thread had (for the most part) constructive and legitimate critisism of the game, something that is now… more totally lost in a flow of outrage that is for the most part not even directed at the right people to begin with. With Greg's response his intentions behind the comment are clear, and while I do not 'like' his presenation style he has a point from a rollplay->usefullness perspective.
The way Telltale represented Sarah was her activly bringing the group and or members of the group in trouble because of her problems. If you can not find a way to remedy this to such an extent that she does not do this anymore, you don't go the extra mile anymore to save her. That is not because disabled persons are useless and all better die as quickly as possible. It's because you are out of options with this specific person who keeps putting your lives at risk. The problem with Sarah in my opinion is that Telltale ne… [view original content]
Nice points. I made similar points, but I got way more downvotes lol.
Also, they didn't spend enough time exploring Carver's prison/safe zone. There were heaps of other survivors there, but you didn't get an opinion on what they think or feel. Some of them might have been good, some bad. And yet all we saw we were lazy cameos of the 200 days characters. Well, except for Bonnie.
Sure, things were bad for your group and the indian group, but the Carver's group were well fed and well armed. And didn't anyone else think Clem and others kind of doomed people that were there lol?
Anyways, its been pretty bad writing did not bring out the full potential and emotional realisations of characters like Nick and Sarah, and often makes it difficult for the player to empathise with them (especially when everyone else in the cast just moves on without a care).
Bokor, we are on the same page as this being a matter of bad writing rather then inherent to Sarah being disabled right?
First off, Ben w… moreas not dangerous, just first misguided and then unlucky in his attempts to redeem himself, but his heart was in the right place and he reflected on his actions, feeling guilty and trying to better himself.
Telltale made Sarah a character with 0 reflection on her own behaviour. The writers made her act and reacts more like an 8-year old then a 15-teen year old. without ever giving an explanation other then the "she is sheltered". Putting a gun to your head at 15? you have to be locked in a basement to be that naive. But since Carlos clear cares for her and the fact she is present in the group to begin with discredit that possibility
As for the screw ups the most obvious ones in the final episode when she has already broken down and therfore makes others risk her life for her (Luke acts like a baboon … [view original content]
Just saying that there's a reason why writing off 'weak' people as unworthy of life is often a villainous mindset.
Then again, the Nazis … morethemselves made Eugenics unpopular for America and Europe. It doesn't mean the belief in 'survival of the fittest' has died out.
Well, about self-preservation... The Nazis firmly believed in that, which is why they culled the populations from Jews and people like Sarah - they brought self-preservation to a national level, since they thought that kind of people drained resources from those needing them better (ie healthy Germans and preferably Aryans).
I understand what you are saying, but there is absolutely no excuse for how this played out in the game. And even less so regarding TTGs and Miller's laugh at Sarah's demise.
Because there is not really any difference. A game like TWD (or pretty much any RPG for that matter) tries to reflect how people bounce off each other in their interactions, and these tries to stay true to what could realistically be expected - that is from our own, real world point of view. This is necessary; we expect someone who gives the impression of having a great sense of humor to laugh a lot, crack jokes and so on - but if we tell a joke to that guy and it for no apparent reason falls flat, it doesn't make sense.
This is my kind of long-winded way of saying that TTG and douchebag-Miller reacted pretty much as they would in real life in a similar situation - "oh fuck, a goddamn retard! Get her out of here!"
You can talk about games and how the liberate us to do whatever we want to do but can't because blah, blah, blah, but at the end of it, if you don't condemn those actions, you are just as bad as you were in the game.
And to be overly clear: That is why I fucking hate Miller, and that's why I fucking hate TTG.
Self preservation. An injured calf will often times be abandoned by the herd. These are the most dire, basic times of humanity's survival. A… morelso lets not forget Jane's relationship with her sister was a large, and often times overlooked theme setup for the episode. It's emphasized that some people just aren't suited for living in the apocalypse, because surviving is a horrible nightmare that you can't wake up from. It puts you in situations that makes you less of a person. Jane abandoned her sister, much like Clem (forced to or not) abandons Sarah.
I agree with you on some points. I didn't hate Sarah or Nick, but they sure annoyed me to death. I kept joking with my brother how I wanted them both to die, but that was it, a joke. I really wanted them to grow as people and overcome their weaknesses. However, when I realized Nick could die at the end of the first episode, I kinda knew in my heart its Telltale Destiny that he die later on, if not here, then eventually. I wanted Sarah to find the strength to get over her issues, but after spoiling the choices to myself (Youtube vids about leaked information) I knew that no matter what, she would die as well. But thats not the worst part, sure I hate the characters dying, but they don't ever develop. Telltale basically says, "No DUH!" to us about that during episode 4 when Jane talks about her sister. Despite the mock themes of friendship, trust, and growth, thats all it is, a mockery because this never happens.
I can still get by without the trust of anyone, hell they will trust me anyway and we will all get the same conclusion, just with the choice of Jerk Clem, Sweet Clem, or a mix of the two. The story so far has had it's good points, but when it comes the characters outside of Clem changing its been either no progress at all or a complete downhill spiral (I'm talking to you Kenny!) But I guess from one point of view Kenny's character....de-development? (Yeah that describes it fine) Could be seen as a "good" thing because it actually shows change rather than none at all.
Overall, the moral of the story is:
If your not Clem your DOOMED! (To death, insanity, depression, uselessness, under development, and the like.)
Comments
All right...time to post the best responses to Telltale's tumblr post. I'm not gonna put user's link on these quotes.
-"Remember when Telltale games was our favorite gaming company? Remember when we thought that this franchise was the best of all time, with a carefully crafted and involving emotional story, whose portrayal of a diverse cast of characters was respectful and purposeful?
It’s completely mind-boggling.
Not just because of this ignorant excuse of a host, but because of you. You sat by and laughed alongside him, you did nothing to defend your own character from this disgusting and offensive man who sits there laughing in delight that he watched an innocent girl be eaten alive. Simply because “she’s not normal”, simply because “something’s not right with her”. How fucking dare you.
This entire episode was a smack in the face to ANYONE who believed in you. And then you come on this show and rub salt in the wound. You are completely disgusting. You have alienated and marginalized your biggest and most loyal fans.
Well done, Telltale. Really."
-"You realize that this video makes your employees look like complete trash bags, right? Just making sure you noticed."
-"Loved the blatant intolerance Greg Miller shows for characters who “are not normal.” Also loved Mark Darin and Jason Latino electing to back him up rather than Sarah (who has been hinted at as autistic/anxious).
In all seriousness, this interview was extremely unprofessional, and there were several comments that were extremely intolerant of people with anxiety and autistic disorders. It was very disappointing to see such comments receive approval from Telltale staff, both in the video and by the way that you are promoting the video on Tumblr and Twitter.
There’s a point where it stops being fun and games and a harmless discussion of all those things, and this interview went way beyond that point."
-"I’m really, really disappointed in the way this interview went - the unprofessional way the Telltale employees told Greg that people at your company were excited to kill off Sarah, the way they let Greg go on with hurtful words that harm actual, real disabled players who looked up to Sarah as a symbol that they too could survive a horrible, end-of-the-world scenario."
"I’m so disappointed that you even let this happen. That you gave the casual fandom exactly what they wanted - a meaningless, pointless death for Sarah no matter what - and that you let people talk shit about your own characters right in front of you and your employees AGREED with them.
I’m finding it hard to continue supporting you guys ever since you showed you true colors with this Sarah debacle."
-"TTG are so fucking gross and ableist. How do you even live with yourselves for posting/saying such garbage? How dare you people make fun of those who are neurodivergent? Thanks for making me (and MANY others) feel like we don’t deserve to live. You guys lost so many peoples’ respect. I’m (and others) are not buying season 3 until you guys publicly apologize, and not just the “oh, we’re sorry that you’re offended.” bullshit, either. That’s not an apology.
Shit you guys desperately need to read:
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/79047/25-things-wrong-with-season-2-in-a-nutshell/p1
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/77474/where-s2-went-wrong-spoilers-formerly-shame-on-you-telltale
What a damn shame. I’m not excited for season 3 anymore."
-"You let an adult abled guy to laugh at the death of a 15 years old disabled girl. Your employees did the same, and honestly, this is disgusting. I loved your company so much, but you harmed me and so many people here by letting that disgusting man talk."
I am with Clem_is_awesome here, This thread had (for the most part) constructive and legitimate critisism of the game, something that is now totally lost in a flow of outrage that is for the most part not even directed at the right people to begin with. With Greg's response his intentions behind the comment are clear, and while I do not 'like' his presenation style he has a point from a rollplay->usefullness perspective.
The way Telltale represented Sarah was her activly bringing the group and or members of the group in trouble because of her problems. If you can not find a way to remedy this to such an extent that she does not do this anymore, you don't go the extra mile anymore to save her. That is not because disabled persons are useless and all better die as quickly as possible. It's because you are out of options with this specific person who keeps putting your lives at risk. The problem with Sarah in my opinion is that Telltale never gave us the change to explore what exactly was her problem. They wrote here as a dysfunctional character, who caused problems and thats it.
We were never able to ask her what she needed, try to find a way for her of dealing with her disabilty without endangering the group, because of the removal of all the optional conversations. Without the chance to make up your own mind about her, for anyone who does not indentify with her, all we get to see is the screw-ups the writers keep throwing her way. Atleast you knew Ben was trying to do the right thing, you never get the chance to find stuff like that out in s2, That is why I ended up choosing Jane on the balcony scene, the situation seemed to dangerous to try a save especially since it was her.
Not because she was disabled, but because of the danger it would put anyone else in. And the lack of options provided by the writing that things might turn out better.
This make me want to cry. I'm not disabled myself, but it pains me, so much. I really need a break right now...
I think you guys are talking about more or less quasi-professionals; what I was talking about were "real" gaming journalists who get paid regularly to write about games. And, since they work for magazines and papers and whatnot they reach a bigger audience reading their articles, and therefore, they are also the target for the gaming companies for wining, dining and sixtynining.
It was convenient to make them gay though since they were supposed to die anyway. TTG got some cheap shots in showing that "even gays can survive a zombie apocalypse! (for a while at least, he, he , he!")
See how Sean reacts to the characters players hated...
Peter Molyneux and The Walking Dead’s Creative Lead - The One-On-One Interview
Sean Vanaman, the creative lead/writer for Telltale’s The Walking Dead (Season One) talks to the legendary game designer Peter Molyneux about playtesting and the reactions playtesters/players have to certain characters among other subjects in this one-on-one interview
Credits to thewalkingliability for making these.
"This is actually saying more about you now, than it is about the rendering of the character. Because you won't give her a break."
Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
This is a better interview with Peter Molyneux:
I am also with you!
What 'screw-ups' is she responsible for? Talking out of line and getting slapped? Not doing her work and Carver then over-reacting like a murderous baby? Screaming when her dad is screaming as he is eaten alive in front of her?
She may have been the same age as Ben, but she was nowhere as dangerous.
Wow, my respect for Sean Vanaman went up. That's a writer who cares about his characters and doesn't cave in to pressure just because some loud, immature people felt offended by them.
It says something about the new writers when fans are able to show more compassion towards the characters than the writer himself.
Greg's apology just stinks of a Public Relations get out of jail card,he didn't mean this,he didn't mean that.....B.S. you knew exactly what you were saying,now your just backtracking to try and weedle your way outta dodge.It's good you had the balls to come on here and talk to the people affected but keep your excuses to yourself.
You have as much opinion as everyone else but your voice is heard louder because of the media you promote,the outburst of 'she wasn't meant for this world' and 'somethings off about her' will do you no good,but because you backtracked and called her a fictional character im sure this will clear everything up,pathetic response,i too don't accept your apology,your not entirely to blame,Telltale are aswell...
'there are so many people who are SATISFIED slapping Sarah'?????'so it's just like oh you wanted to slap her..' so many people who wanted to get rid of her in the office(telltale) , these comments are coming from the mouths of Telltale,not fans or reviewers,and for Telltale to favour Gregs Tweet should serve as a wake up call.
Bokor, we are on the same page as this being a matter of bad writing rather then inherent to Sarah being disabled right?
First off, Ben was not dangerous, just first misguided and then unlucky in his attempts to redeem himself, but his heart was in the right place and he reflected on his actions, feeling guilty and trying to better himself.
Telltale made Sarah a character with 0 reflection on her own behaviour. The writers made her act and reacts more like an 8-year old then a 15-teen year old. without ever giving an explanation other then the "she is sheltered". Putting a gun to your head at 15? you have to be locked in a basement to be that naive. But since Carlos clear cares for her and the fact she is present in the group to begin with discredit that possibility
As for the screw ups the most obvious ones in the final episode when she has already broken down and therfore makes others risk her life for her (Luke acts like a baboon with zero empathy there aswell so that does not help the believability of these scenes). Referring to the talking out of line and getting slapped & ruining the plants comment: Ofcourse she is not responsible for Carver being a madman and reacting like he does. But she seems to have 0 awareness of the threatening nature of a situation, untill she closes off, even when the player tries to warn her.
A disability might explain this, but for me and as it seems most of the people that did not identify with this, there is just to little to go on.
Part of my frustration might come from that though, Telltale made it impossible in most instances to interact with Sarah in any other way then you sending but Sarah not recieving, the 100% opposite of Lee/Clem relationship in s1. As the player you see this, but at no point can you challenge her or anyone in the group to find out why this is.
Even all this does not excuse to total non-reacton of the group towards her death though.
Yeah, this is a flaw as far as the game's current design is concerned. There's little opportunity to meaningfully interact with MOST characters.
However, Sarah immediately struck me as someone with a mental disorder precisely because she acts like no ordinary teenager. It's not simply "sheltering" that makes you act like an 8 year old, nor is it implied that Carlos' fear of her "ceasing to function" is an irrational concern. I think the writers were playing it safe by never stating outright that "she's autistic", but providing enough evidence to infer that there's something unusual about her mindset.
But demonizing her, and hating her for that? That's not sensible, that's irrational and silly.
I came back just a few days ago to see if anyone else had about the same issues I had with season 2. And just as I won't buy another TTG game again (not only because of the shoddy work on TWD season 2, but pretty much everything else - remember the update schedule for example?) and then I won't have any reason to come back here again either.
This is excellent - the guy knows what's needed, which is personal investment in order to like a game, and in this kind of game, that investment comes from the people you interact with.
Now, you don't need to like a certain character to get invested (like Lilly as he mentions) - you can flat out hate their guts. That is one side of the coin.
The other is how that character is treated by the developer. Had TTG had the same kneejerk reaction in season 1 as they had in 2 regarding characters and their future, they would have let the player strangle Lilly as soon as possible. They didn't, and for that they should get all the cred, becasue it made for better tension and character development to have her stick around for as long as possible (Now, I think they dropped the ball with Chuck who was a great character though)..
Then comes season 2... And this thing with getting people invested goes out the window. Absolutely no regard for character development ("eh, we'll just use the old characters with new names. Who'll notice?"), and that is what is piled on top of the otherwise shoddy and lazy writing and the total lack of focus. Hell, even Carver was reduced to pretty much a one-episode villain. So much potential wasted right there.
Daily reminder that the social justice warriors are firing on all cylinders right now, and they will never be satisfied unless Greg and telltale staff are sacrificed and shed blood for their sins against a fictional character.
More blood for the blood god
You didn't know she had serious mental problems by episode 2?
I think all this Tumblr bullshit is, well, fucking retarded and even I'm going to downvote you.
nah,it's about trying to remain 'human' and not turning into a Carver type character,where People who are seen as weak are punished with death,like Carver's/Jane's/Greg's/Telltale's comments reflect.
Sarah was useless. So was Ben. Some people enjoyed the fact they were removed. People cheer when character's on tv they hate die. It's a disconnect between fictional situations and reality. My gf has laughed while running someone over in GTA before, but I don't think that means she's a homicidal psychopath. Also he explained that by 'not normal', he thought of her as just really sheltered. But no, that's not enough, we need a parade for disabled peoples rights now, all because we love to blow things out of proportion. Not just blow it up, but nuke it. Nuke it from orbit, with no survivors. Because Greg and Telltale hate disabled people and think they should die. Right?
Exactly. Which is the same reason I'd love to play a game where I take command over Auschwitz.
BURN BITCHES, BURN!
/sarcasm
He didn't even talk to anyone like he said he would in his post, he only copy and pasted his blog post and then replied to one person that was in favor of his "apology".
Uhh, okay?
In other words - as you and apparently TTG reason - it doesn't really matter what you do as long as it's just a game.
So tell me, why do we have a game where it is ok to have a mentally disabled girl die a gruesome death and have a laugh at it - when we don't have a game where you take command of Auschwitz?
Warge is exaggerating, but not ridiculously so. The Nazis believing that only a tiny portion of the able-bodied, able-minded deserved to live is one of the reasons why they remain so reviled.
The difference is, this game is centered around a fictional apocalypse where terrible things happen to the good, the bad, the strong and the weak all the same. Having a 'laugh at it' is up to the player, and not the aim of Telltale.
I find that different than playing a game about a real life travesty about the genocide of Jews
And this connects how? Are we now saying telltale and the people that didn't like Sarah are nazis?
That person was me
. In all honesty though, I still don't completely forgive him. I kind of respect that he at least acknowledged it, unlike Telltale, but it will take more for me to completely forgive him.
Just saying that there's a reason why writing off 'weak' people as unworthy of life is often a villainous mindset.
Then again, the Nazis themselves made Eugenics unpopular for America and Europe. It doesn't mean the belief in 'survival of the fittest' has died out.
Nick's death makes me commit seppaku
Self preservation. An injured calf will often times be abandoned by the herd. These are the most dire, basic times of humanity's survival. Also lets not forget Jane's relationship with her sister was a large, and often times overlooked theme setup for the episode. It's emphasized that some people just aren't suited for living in the apocalypse, because surviving is a horrible nightmare that you can't wake up from. It puts you in situations that makes you less of a person. Jane abandoned her sister, much like Clem (forced to or not) abandons Sarah.
When you're depressed, you want an end to all the pain. But even a lot of suicidal people who survive their attempts find out that they don't really want to die. We see this with Ben, who wanted to die because of his misery yet realized in his last moments that dying sucks and he actually didn't want to suffer.
It's a hard decision. But there needs to be a reason for people to keep pressing on. You can try to motivate Ben to atone for his problems, or tell Nick that he still has his group to rely on, or tell Sarah that she's continuing her father's legacy, or remind Kenny of his duty, or even have Clementine press on for whatever reason you can imagine (Wellington, reunion with Christa, a vague dream of society returning to normal). Point is, writing people off for dead is often not actually in their best self-interest.
To credit the writers, you can actually have Clem call out Jane for dismissing her by pointing out that Sarah isn't suicidally depressed and call her out for letting her sister be torn apart. It's no mercy - being eaten alive is probably one of the most horrible and primal deaths a human can suffer. It's no wonder Ben was written to be afraid of that.
One more thing - the excuse of 'self-preservation'. That's why Kenny panicked and let Shawn die. That's why Ben almost let Clementine get eaten. It might be natural and understandable, but it's also not something to take pride in. Bravery may be stupid, but it's valued because it's about genuinely risking oneself for others. (Though since this is all a video-game, I suppose the impact of this may be diminished for a lot of players. Me included.)
What a shitstorm. Wow.
From that interview, I personally got the impression less that Telltale's representatives were 100% in agreement with Greg and more that they didn't have the conviction to argue with him about it. If he had said how sad he was to see Sarah die and how he wished it could have been different, they would have run with that just as eagerly and given examples of people from Telltale sharing the same sentiment. I get the sense they aren't all that invested in their characters, certainly not enough to argue in their defense.
I find them more lacking in character than actually sadistic. A louder and more obnoxious person like Greg can drag such people along with them into saying all kinds of horrible things.That still makes them contemptible, but in a different way.
Well said. I think it's a combination of lack of investment, as well as not being assertive (and fear of ruining their relations with IGN), that let them come across as weak for not questioning or calling out Greg for being a creep.
TTG Is horrible killing off sarah like boom like she is nothing man screw this **** (Sorry for language) but Season 2 is so Bad compared to Season 1 (The best TWD Game) like really the episodes TO short and feels rushed in Season 1 The game felt big and the episodes were so long and you could do alot of things but Season 2 feels to rushed and not complete to me i mean it's good but wel.....Terrible compared to Season 1 i mean Season 2 had barely alot of gameplay to me compared to Season 1 and hell i bet Episode 5 will be Super Short
Your opinion is fair enough. I'd be surprised with the number of downvotes (high but still under upvotes) but even partially defending Greg Miller (urgh) in this heated environment would cause that.
Still, we value all opinions on this thread so no matter where you stand keep giving them, people.
Nice points. I made similar points, but I got way more downvotes lol.
Also, they didn't spend enough time exploring Carver's prison/safe zone. There were heaps of other survivors there, but you didn't get an opinion on what they think or feel. Some of them might have been good, some bad. And yet all we saw we were lazy cameos of the 200 days characters. Well, except for Bonnie.
Sure, things were bad for your group and the indian group, but the Carver's group were well fed and well armed. And didn't anyone else think Clem and others kind of doomed people that were there lol?
Anyways, its been pretty bad writing did not bring out the full potential and emotional realisations of characters like Nick and Sarah, and often makes it difficult for the player to empathise with them (especially when everyone else in the cast just moves on without a care).
Also, getting tired of that Kenny vs Luke crap.
Not to mention that the Nazis killed off disabled people...
You know, like Sarah.
Well, about self-preservation... The Nazis firmly believed in that, which is why they culled the populations from Jews and people like Sarah - they brought self-preservation to a national level, since they thought that kind of people drained resources from those needing them better (ie healthy Germans and preferably Aryans).
I understand what you are saying, but there is absolutely no excuse for how this played out in the game. And even less so regarding TTGs and Miller's laugh at Sarah's demise.
Because there is not really any difference. A game like TWD (or pretty much any RPG for that matter) tries to reflect how people bounce off each other in their interactions, and these tries to stay true to what could realistically be expected - that is from our own, real world point of view. This is necessary; we expect someone who gives the impression of having a great sense of humor to laugh a lot, crack jokes and so on - but if we tell a joke to that guy and it for no apparent reason falls flat, it doesn't make sense.
This is my kind of long-winded way of saying that TTG and douchebag-Miller reacted pretty much as they would in real life in a similar situation - "oh fuck, a goddamn retard! Get her out of here!"
You can talk about games and how the liberate us to do whatever we want to do but can't because blah, blah, blah, but at the end of it, if you don't condemn those actions, you are just as bad as you were in the game.
And to be overly clear: That is why I fucking hate Miller, and that's why I fucking hate TTG.
I agree with you on some points. I didn't hate Sarah or Nick, but they sure annoyed me to death. I kept joking with my brother how I wanted them both to die, but that was it, a joke. I really wanted them to grow as people and overcome their weaknesses. However, when I realized Nick could die at the end of the first episode, I kinda knew in my heart its Telltale Destiny that he die later on, if not here, then eventually. I wanted Sarah to find the strength to get over her issues, but after spoiling the choices to myself (Youtube vids about leaked information) I knew that no matter what, she would die as well. But thats not the worst part, sure I hate the characters dying, but they don't ever develop. Telltale basically says, "No DUH!" to us about that during episode 4 when Jane talks about her sister. Despite the mock themes of friendship, trust, and growth, thats all it is, a mockery because this never happens.
I can still get by without the trust of anyone, hell they will trust me anyway and we will all get the same conclusion, just with the choice of Jerk Clem, Sweet Clem, or a mix of the two. The story so far has had it's good points, but when it comes the characters outside of Clem changing its been either no progress at all or a complete downhill spiral (I'm talking to you Kenny!) But I guess from one point of view Kenny's character....de-development? (Yeah that describes it fine) Could be seen as a "good" thing because it actually shows change rather than none at all.
Overall, the moral of the story is:
If your not Clem your DOOMED! (To death, insanity, depression, uselessness, under development, and the like.)