To be fair, they were heading to a good direction with Sarah and Nick up until EP2, and after that it all changed.
Sarah has several dialogue lines in EP2 which suggests that she WAS trying to fit in and become a useful part of the group, she even says she wanted to be like Clem at the gun scene,and asks her to guide her, aware that her dad must not know, and that he would never let her do it otherwise. She saw Clem as a beacon of hope for finally learning about the world she was in now, and starting to be treated like she was part of the group. Who else was gonna teach her if not Clem? Her dad would never do it himself or allow anyone else to.
She was also aware of her dad's excessive coddling and how he treated her like she was stupid and useless, and she was visibly upset about it. "My dad told you not to tell me, didn't he?", and then if you call him out in front of her "You told me I had to distract her!" she actually gets pissed off and snaps at Carlos for treating her like she was an idiot behind her back.
I don't even have to get started with Nick's character development in EP1 and EP2 and how he suddenly was forgotten by everyone as soon as EP3 hit, right?
The writer for EP1 and 2 had the right idea about the season, imo. When they changed him for EP3 and 4 is when things started going downhill. I wish they could have somehow kept Nick Breckon as the writer for the entire season.
I really disliked Sarah after episode two, since I saw her as a future plot device, but I liked her after episode three and mourned her after episode four.
Then Nick... i'll be honest, I didn't really care about him. I trusted him though. But either way, they really sucked at making me dislike those characters. I couldn't possibly dislike someone for being of lower intelligence, that's a stupid outlook upon things.
Well, my frustration with that dynamic would be diminished if Luke was made more sympathetic and prominent. But I'm also annoyed by the side-lining of other characters who had the potential to be interesting - trying to pull Nick out of his depression, trying to help Sarah gain independence from her father, trying to help Sarita come to grips with being an amputee.
And it disheartens me to find out that the writers and designers themselves seemed not to care much about those characters.
The Kenny and Luke being crammed down our throats thing I don't agree with. But, I don't hate their characters. I never really thought about the gay couples thing until you mentioned it.
Unless you're someone who believes they're invincible and would never be weak or vulnerable or depressed or out of your depth. "To hell with people with mental problems, they're dead weight! Let 'em all rot!"
I really disliked Sarah after episode two, since I saw her as a future plot device, but I liked her after episode three and mourned her afte… morer episode four.
Then Nick... i'll be honest, I didn't really care about him. I trusted him though. But either way, they really sucked at making me dislike those characters. I couldn't possibly dislike someone for being of lower intelligence, that's a stupid outlook upon things.
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because honestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan for everyone. Nick is in depression, Sarah has anxiety disorder but IS TRYING to survive, Carlos is a shitty doctor, but a caring father, Rebecca's hormones are going crazy because of pregnancy, but she's caring mother and friend, and Alvin is...uh, Alvin. (Really, Alvin could use some character development, but his death redeemed it).
And then Pierre Shorette came.
And this other guy, I don't even know his name. George, perhaps? No idea right now, I'm too lazy to google it xD
And when they came, many things turned to shit. Why, Telltale? Why couldn't Nick Breckon write all the episodes and those two guys might've been additional writers, not the other way around? Hell, 13 years old kid, writing a fanfic for The Walking Dead, could handle their deaths better, if they really had to die in Amid The Ruins. Proof? I wrote some sort of a more complex story for Nick in Episode 4. (It could be better, I admit, but you'll see it's better, even though maybe only slightly better). Sarah gets mentioned, but I didn't really have an idea for her. (That makes me think that writers of an amazing story that is TWD should fucking cooperate with themselves and maybe even if they did in ATR, it wasn't shown too good.)
Okay, let's get to my version.
Ahem.
So, Nick gets shot in the herd attacking Hardware Store. Alrighty then, I can buy that. He wants to help Luke with finding Sarah and they both go after her after her dad, Carlos, was devoured horribly by walkers. Now, let's skip to the trailer park. Jane and Clem finds Nick stuck in the grid (I hope that's how this thing is called in english), but not as a zombie. We see him, struggling with a walker attacking him. Clem kills the walker. Nick tells her that Sarah and Luke are inside one of the trailers. He wanted to get help, so he sneaked out to run to Parker's Run, but the fate wanted him to get stuck in the grid. Due to the shot in the shoulder, he got weak and couldn't free himself and literally few minutes earlier, one of the walkers noticed him and wanted to feast on him, but we saved him. He complains that the wound burns like hell and he wishes to get patched up already.
Then, they're all on their way to the trailer. Jane teaches them both the knee trick. So, Nick will be useless for a short while, until we don't kill the walkers near the barricade. Jane tells them to draw the walkers to the barricade. Nick at first disagrees with this plan (thinking it's risky, the barricade might be too weak for this shitload of zombies), but he can be convinced by either Jane or Clem. And he finally agrees to do so.
While in the puzzle hub, Clem has a chance to talk with Nick. He's obviously worried about their best friends and hopes they're okay. After a while of awkward silence, he tells Clem to hurry up, because the door might break in a matter of time.
After solving the puzzle and seeing walkers coming this way, Nick smiles, but almost automatically runs away when Jane tells him to. While in the neighboruing trailer, Jane goes to kill the female walker slamming on the window, while Nick goes to other walker somewhere in this room (If Nick is killed in Episode 2, both walkers are being killed by Jane or there's just no second walker). They're both busy, so nobody warns Clem about walker behind her and she needs to find this walker for herself.
Then, the dead walker we put on the honk falls off. Jane tells them to move. Nick has a chance to say a funny line, like ''Fuck gravity'' or something. Their three runs to the trailer. Jane tells Clem to open the door, while she and Nick are killing the upcoming walkers.
When Clem ruins the door, she helps Jane barricade it again (Again, Nick can't do much with one hand). Luke comes out and is happy to see Nick. Luke thinks that Nick actually was in the Parker's Run to get help, but Nick doesn't even bother to tell the truth (another funny moment. See, Telltale, it's not too hard to do funny moments). Nick asks Luke about Sarah (If Nick's already dead, Clem can ask that question). Luke responds that it's not too good and Clem can help.
While in the room with Sarah, convincing her doesn't change except Nick will keep biting his thumb in the background (his nervous habit from Ep 1). Jane keeps insisting to leave Sarah when walkers are attacking, but Luke and Nick both disagree, yet Nick disagrees with a big aggresion. He can say something like ''Fuck you, Jane. You'd leave everyone, so shut the fuck up.'' And then the complex part of the story starts to roll.
If you leave Sarah: Everyone will get out, except, well, her. Nick is traumatized by her death. He wants to shoot her, so she doesn't turn, but he lost his weapon in the herd. Later, he's very angry at Jane for convincing Clementine to leave her. He doesn't hide his hatred for her. One of their arguments almost ended up in fight, but Luke calmed them down. While at Parker's Run, when Rebecca asks where's Sarah, he directly says Jane killed her. Not that she left her to die, that she killed her. Jane says it's not true and another argument arises. Clem can be part of it or stay silent. Later, Bonnie calls her out to talk with Kenny.
Then, he doesn't do much at Parker's Run. You have few chances to talk with him. He doesn't say much except how he hates Jane and wishes her the worst. He doesn't blame you for Sarah's death, though. He just says you were in a heat of the moment back at the trailer park and calls Jane a bitch. ''What a fucking bitch she is. I wish she'd left, but...that's unlikely, is it? What if she'll convince Luke to leave me once? (At this moment forum members could speculate about possible foreshadowing) Having her in the group is risky.''
Later, walkers attack Parker's Run. He's the one to warn the group about them, since Sarah's dead. So he just escapes. Later at the observation deck, he and Clem are the first to climb up the stairs and discover Luke and Jane jerking off. He's really, REALLY mad at him. Example of the conversation:
Luke: Clementine?!
[Dialogue option]
Luke: It's not like that, ugh...
Nick: Luke? What the fuck? How could you do this to me? Did Carver mess you up too well back at the Howe's?!
Luke: Nick, come on...Please...Don't be mad right now. Tell me what the hell is going on.
Nick: Fuck you, Luke. There. Continue fucking people I hate. Maybe you'll go back to the hardware store to fuck Carver's body, you son of a bitch?!
Luke: Nick...
Then Rebecca comes with the others and Kenny starts arguing with Luke. She starts to deliver the baby. Nick helps the others with keeping the walkers off them. When Luke and Clem are pushing the cannon, part of the dock falls. Jane almost falls, and Nick...he falls completely. But he's not stuck under the planks. He quickly climbs up again, seeing walkers being close. But he fell on left arm (the one that got shot) and now he completely can't move it. Then he doesn't do anything for a while, until we don't drop the whole deck.
After holding Rebecca's baby, we don't go to Jane first. Clem automatically goes to Nick, sitting alone at the edge of the ruined deck.
Clem: Hey, Nick.
Nick: ....Hi.
Clem: Are you still angry at Luke?
Nick: Yes I am. He betrayed me. I can't believe he did this after twenty years of our friendship. Jerking off with a person I hated, loathed and other good synonyms. I just...can't believe it. I don't want to look at him. And my hand hurts...I can't move it. Fucking cannon.
Clem: sad eyes
Nick: I appreciate you're checking up on me, but I'd rather be alone now.
And then Clem spots Jane leaving. They're talking, blah blah blah. Luke is angry at Jane leaving. Kenny starts arguing with him. Nick joins, saying that's good she left and that Luke should learn on his mistakes. Then, there's the choice about leaving immediately or after few days. Nick actually agrees with Luke on this one.
He's later seen with the others on the journey, being rather silent, but trying to calm down both Luke and Kenny when they're arguing. He dies later at Episode 5, in the shootout with Russians.
If you save Sarah: Nick is the last one to being pulled up. Unfortunately, walkers get him and bit him in the ankle. He doesn't fall down, though. Luke insists to pull him up and they do. At the roof, he sits for a while, looking at his bite. He immediately thinks of Uncle Pete and his situation. In the forest, he's happy that Sarah survived and smiles to her, but he's really mad at Jane for insisting to leave her and he points it out. Then Luke worries about Nick's situation and his bite. He doesn't want him to die and comforts him as best as he can.
At Parker's Run, Rebecca is happy to see everyone alive, but almost immediately notices the wound on Nick's ankle. Nick explains the situation to everyone. Rebecca cries, saying her ''No...No...''. He's not so important later on. We can talk to him while exploring Parker's Run. All he will say that he hates Jane, but doesn't call her a bitch, yet he still wants her to die, adding lines like ''When I turn, I'll be happy to eat her.''.
Now, skipping to the observation deck. In this situation, only Clem notices what Luke and Jane were doing, because Nick is weak and slow, climbing up the stairs is hard for him. He doesn't understand the argument between Kenny and Luke and he calms them both down.
Even if he's really weak and tired, he decides to help everyone with keeping walkers at distance from Rebecca at shoots some of them. When Luke and Clem are rolling the cannon, Sarah and Jane almost fall. Yes, almost. While Jane is quickly caught by Luke and Clem, Nick catches her. He's too weak to hold her for too long, so when Jane is back at the deck, Luke helps Nick with pulling Sarah up. She has her eyes wide open. She's seen hugging Nick (Cute moments are cool too.).
Later, after holding Rebecca's baby, Kenny takes them, but Sarah asks him to hold the baby too and Kenny lets her.
Meanwhile, Clem goes to talk with Jane. She passes Nick outside the gift shop. He's starting to be pale. Clem makes sad eyes and proceeds to talk with Jane.
When Luke and Kenny are arguing, Nick won't be a part of it. He can barely say anything. After the argument, Bonnie approaches Clem to talk about Nick and tells her that eventually we'll have to end his suffering. She says people were too busy with other walkers so far, but we need to start worrying about that. Clem nods. Then there's the decision about leaving. It's a major decision for Nick's fate.
If they leave at first night: Nick is seen going with others...kind of. Luke drags him, because he passed out not so long ago. Kenny insists to put a bullet in his head before he attacks someone. Luke refuses, saying he checked everything and he's still breathing. Then there's the argument about decision that we made. Kenny thinks it was right, Luke thinks it was wrong.
At the same time, Sarah starts talking with Clem. She says ''Thanks...for not leaving me when you could.''
Dialogue options:
[No problem.]
[I couldn't leave my friend].
[I considered leaving you].
[...]
Later, Luke puts Nick near Rebecca's ''place to sit'', on the snow. Not really cool, but there was no space for him. Then the Russians arrive and shootout starts. But Nick turns at the beginning of Episode 5, biting one of the Russians, making him determinant. (See, Telltale? It's possible for Nick to be useful even after his death).
If they left after few days: We don't go automatically to the scene with the snow. We find ourselves again on observation deck. Snow is laying all around. Almost everyone are sleeping, Clem also. Suddenly, she hears a gunshot and immediately wakes up. She left the gift shop to see a horrible image at the ruined deck. Luke with a pistol in his hand, which was shaking like jelly, and...dead Nick in front of him, in a hole in his forehead. Luke actually sheds few tears. He tells us that he turned and he was the first one to discover it. Everyone else wake up. Horrified Luke couldn't bottle his emotions anymore. He...he had to kill Nick. The group is trying to comfort him. They succeed. Luke at the end says ''Let's go already. I can't stand this god-forsaken place. Please''. And then we cut to the scene where our group is going through the snow, arguments, Sarah and Clem talking etc.
The decision about when to leave won't change Sarah's fate. She can be either killed in the shootout or after that, where she can finally use a gun and prove that the training in Ep 2 wasn't worthless. Let's say, the survivors are escaping to the town we saw earlier. But the shootout attracted walkers. Sarah decides to take a pistol and shoot her way out. If we didn't teach her, she dies on her way to the town. If we did, she can somehow die in the town. (Nick Breckon can write her death scene).
I'm pretty impressed. This is definitely one the of the better alternatives I've seen anyone write. Can someone point this to the telltale writers so they can see how much better this could have been?
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because hone… morestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan f… [view original content]
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because hone… morestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan f… [view original content]
Unless you're someone who believes they're invincible and would never be weak or vulnerable or depressed or out of your depth. "To hell wit… moreh people with mental problems, they're dead weight! Let 'em all rot!"
That mind-set in itself is a mental problem IMO.
Unless you're someone who believes they're invincible and would never be weak or vulnerable or depressed or out of your depth. "To hell wit… moreh people with mental problems, they're dead weight! Let 'em all rot!"
That mind-set in itself is a mental problem IMO.
That's really amazing, I only see one problem: I believe Mike would suggest cutting off Nick's leg (or do it himself). Remember when Reggie said 'it's like he's done it before'?
But then again, Mike wasn't with Clem and Jane looking for Luke, Nick and Sarah, so the infection in Nick's bite would have probably already spread enough that cutting off the limb wouldn't work. This could also become another decision, similar to what we had in 105 with Lee's arm.
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because hone… morestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan f… [view original content]
Yeah, it could work too - decision with cutting off Nick's leg. Of course, it would end up with Nick dying, but at least we'd try. Or, if it's really necessary for Nick to die no matter what, we could make Clem loose her hatchet (only good tool to cut off someone's limb).
That's really amazing, I only see one problem: I believe Mike would suggest cutting off Nick's leg (or do it himself). Remember when Reggie … moresaid 'it's like he's done it before'?
But then again, Mike wasn't with Clem and Jane looking for Luke, Nick and Sarah, so the infection in Nick's bite would have probably already spread enough that cutting off the limb wouldn't work. This could also become another decision, similar to what we had in 105 with Lee's arm.
Yeah... They massively succeeded on my account. I hate Nick more than any other character. Wish I understood the fascination, but to me he just comes off as a drunken idiot that gets people killed.
I don't agree with some important things you've said, though I agree with a fair amount. I personally relate to Nick as well, and I was saddened when he and Sarah died with no proper buildup; there was a lot of wasted potential. I agree with your observation of how this season, we're meant to have the option of becoming like Crawford. The hopelessness of these characters' deaths is supposed to be wearing us down and is supposed to get us to take the more heartless Crawford choices. And it's worked! People have made entire threads about how they won't be taking the nice choices anymore post 204, because of the shitty circumstances created by the writers. I think it's impressive when TT can not just develop their own characters, but also change their own players' mindsets. I don't think TT is just trying to be "realistic"; I really think they're trying to simulate the terrible things that can happen to wear Clem and the others down to make these heartless choices in the future.
I think it's pessimistic of you to think Sarah's and Nick's first deaths were canon and their second deaths were afterthoughts (though their poor writing made them seem like afterthoughts, true). Choosing to save them may not have made a big difference to Sarah's and Nick's characters in the long run, but it makes a difference to your Clem. Will she give in to Crawford's logic or not?
I don't agree with Crawford at all, period. But I have to say even though I'm an optimist, I'm a realist first. I can relate to what Nick was going through, but I also know that if you don't try to pick yourself up, take steps to help yourself, and try to "be strong" as Clem urges Sarah to be, things won't always end well.
But like you said, Nick and Sarah did fight to survive and keep going. I feel that after the surely-saddening episode 205, Clem could soon find herself in Nick's shoes in terms of depression affecting her more, so I hope her reassessing of this lesson to "get back up" could work into her story. Then Nick's and Sarah's deaths wouldn't be in so much vain hopefully.
I let Nick die in Episode 2 and I didn't save Sarah just because I'm doing an playthrough right now
with a very hardened Clem so I agree if you let them die their deaths were handed very good it made you think about what you did
and actually fitted a Clem who is becoming more of a survivor (like Jane) and Carver's words at the end of Episode 3 also get more meaning
BUT I think people who saved them should also be rewarded for that I don't like how Telltale wants everyone on their bleak and depressive path for
Clem if you really are a good person then you should be rewarded and not
just showing the middle finger to them and saying nope Crawford/Carver were right people like Nick and Sarah are not worth it!
Well, what i mean by that is I always interrupted these deaths as people that couldn't be saved. I think they were meant to kill any hope the player was supposed to feel. You grow attached to them, want to save them, then they die to leave the player feeling hopeless. I think they were created to play a purpose to make Clementine's character maybe more jaded if she survives next season. As uncle Pete says, "Everyone has to play a role, even if the people you love them for it, hate you. for it.
We love Nick/Sarah, we hate the way they died, know what i mean. This is what i meant when i said, Artsey Fartsey.
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because hone… morestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan f… [view original content]
I actually agree with you on the point that the bleakness of this episode has converted some players into becoming cynical. But it's the execution of this theme, particularly in the callous way the doomed characters were treated both by a vocal portion of the internet as well as their own writers, which makes me question the intention of the developers.
Who knows. I'd love to have a uplifting, bittersweet end to the Season with Clem reunited with Christa. It's the only way that will convince me that Season 3 won't just be another slog through relentless bleakness while only the cold-blooded, irritating characters remain alive.
I don't agree with some important things you've said, though I agree with a fair amount. I personally relate to Nick as well, and I was sadd… moreened when he and Sarah died with no proper buildup; there was a lot of wasted potential. I agree with your observation of how this season, we're meant to have the option of becoming like Crawford. The hopelessness of these characters' deaths is supposed to be wearing us down and is supposed to get us to take the more heartless Crawford choices. And it's worked! People have made entire threads about how they won't be taking the nice choices anymore post 204, because of the shitty circumstances created by the writers. I think it's impressive when TT can not just develop their own characters, but also change their own players' mindsets. I don't think TT is just trying to be "realistic"; I really think they're trying to simulate the terrible things that can happen to wear Clem and the others down to make thes… [view original content]
He doesn't even have the luck to have the plot's protection on his side, as Kenny does. Kenny's importance to the plot allowed him to somehow be The Only Man who could possibly help Rebecca out, disregarding what Clementine herself might have picked up from Christa.
When Telltale wrote Lee's death, that was an example of how deaths can be meaningless and sudden and happen to anyone. He was our protagonist! We didn't expect him to die--but he did.
The deaths they receive if you chose to save them are lazy, confusing, contrived, and barely get a reaction from anyone. It makes it seem like their "good" deaths were afterthoughts, whereas their "bad" deaths were the ones planned all along and meant to be considered canon.
Compare it to Ben's. Both of Ben's deaths were impactful--saving him felt like a real choice and it was worth it, because he blew up at Kenny. His second death was SO meaningful, with Kenny going to save him. It broke my heart and it was an amazing completion to both their character arcs.
Nick and Sarah didn't get that in their second deaths. They were around for a little longer. Sarah huddled and panicked, Nick just gushed about Luke, then they died with barely any acknowledgement from anyone.
Uh, no, we're meant to become Crawford if we WANT to.
I was never bothered by Sarah and Nick, I loved them both.
I understood that she… more had some issues, and that is no reason to hate her. It's like people are too dense to figure that she had a disability and her dad wasn't exactly helping her work around it, not that she was "stupid" because she wanted to.
In the end Sarah died in a freak accident, after all. Could have happened to any of them.
It makes me fear for how uninformed people are of mental issues in real life.
So what are the odds that episode 3 and 4 were rewritten from their original premise? Something seems off about both episodes and its not just the character deaths.
I know people are mad about Greg Miller. He was disgusting.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thing. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so precious, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
I'm not going to repeat myself. I've already explained why this is a lazy, cop-out excuse from a literary standpoint because it's clear this wasn't Telltale's intention when they wrote the scenes. Lee's death, Ben's death--THOSE deaths had that meaning. These deaths did not. Nick and Sarah were just fridged, plan and simple.
Great thread, but I was looking at the situation differently.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thi… moreng. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so precious, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
But that's not what some people are mad about, they're made about how Greg Miller completely trash talked Sarah's character, made her out to be a liability and proved himself as an ableist. And the exact Telltale staff, laughed with him. Not only laugh, but AGREE. That's the only thing I'm pissed off at Telltale for. Oh, and Nick dying offscreen. That was a total bitch.
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because hone… morestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan f… [view original content]
It made no sense to me that Christa wasn't mentioned at all. You would think this would be very traumatizing for Clem, considering how Christa is implied to have lost her baby.
The game makes Clementine go through the motions of the plot but it never once touches on her emotions and feelings, and she's quite clearly struggling with a lot of heavy stuff herself. The trailer tricked me into thinking Luke was going to talk to her about her feelings, but when he said "Are you okay?" and I chose to say "No", he just shrugged it off and started talking about Jane.
He doesn't even have the luck to have the plot's protection on his side, as Kenny does. Kenny's importance to the plot allowed him to someh… moreow be The Only Man who could possibly help Rebecca out, disregarding what Clementine herself might have picked up from Christa.
It's insane how we're all making these things based on Telltale's work. They make the original version and the fans came up with better versions based on those errors the original made. It's crazy!
Haha, I've actually been writing a fan fiction where Nick, Sarah, and Sarita make it out of the herd and survive together. A lot of people have been diving into stuff like that after episode 4.
It's insane how we're all making these things based on Telltale's work. They make the original version and the fans came up with better versions based on those errors the original made. It's crazy!
Yeah... They massively succeeded on my account. I hate Nick more than any other character. Wish I understood the fascination, but to me he just comes off as a drunken idiot that gets people killed.
I think the developers knew exactly what they were doing by trolling us with the ending of E4's trailer - that Clementine's chance to have a heart-to-heart with Luke is quickly brushed off so that he can talk about his tryst with a shifty woman he met a day ago.
Unfortunately, that kind of bait-and-switch is the bad kind of surprise. The one that diminishes our chance to empathize with our protagonist and their ostensible deuteragonist.
It made no sense to me that Christa wasn't mentioned at all. You would think this would be very traumatizing for Clem, considering how Chris… moreta is implied to have lost her baby.
The game makes Clementine go through the motions of the plot but it never once touches on her emotions and feelings, and she's quite clearly struggling with a lot of heavy stuff herself. The trailer tricked me into thinking Luke was going to talk to her about her feelings, but when he said "Are you okay?" and I chose to say "No", he just shrugged it off and started talking about Jane.
I've been considering that too. Actually I want to write my version of the whole season! But... I'm not sure I'll be able to fit that into my schedule considering how busy I am.
Haha, I've actually been writing a fan fiction where Nick, Sarah, and Sarita make it out of the herd and survive together. A lot of people have been diving into stuff like that after episode 4.
Speaking as someone with a [physical] disability I can get your viewpoint. People with disabilities fight an uphill battle in all spheres of life. But that doesn't make your life mean more. Just because you need support or protection doesn't mean your life is worth more than those doing the protection. People died protecting/sheltering Sarah, or died because of her inability to act and function autonomously. Where do you draw the line? How many people die protecting someone before it becomes too much? I'm studying psychology so I get the reasons for Sarah's inability better than most but that doesn't change facts. Sarah did not just not contribute anything to the survival of the group she actively detracted from their chances of survival simply by existing. It's not fair and it's brutal and I felt terribly for leaving her behind in that trailer park [after trying to convince her to leave, again, against my better judgement] but I don't regret the decision for a moment. Cognitively anyway. Emotionally it feels kinda sucky.
Nick didn't have a disability. He was fine, actually. He screwed up sometimes, sometimes badly but not to the extent Ben did and he was still capable of contributing to the group, unlike Sarah.
In my opinion, in a survival situation like that, you need to be able to contribute in SOME way. I wouldn't be able to walk as far as other members of my group or do heavy lifting for extended periods of time but I'm smart, I'm a quick learner and I'm willing to make decisions [and take the flak] for decisions other people shy away from. I like to think that my pros outweigh my cons but if I found out people were dying to protect me I would hate myself. Unless of course they did it because they needed me for Y in which case it would be almost self preservation on their part, if the dying on my behalf was borne from them feeling that I needed protection then I'd feel shitty. I'm not noble enough to commit suicide in such a situation but I'd understand being left behind and perhaps even separate from the group willingly. If we assume all human life is equal then it makes no sense to keep someone around whose already cost lives and shows no signs of reformation.
So no, I don't think Telltale wanted us to hate Sarah and Nick. I think what they wanted to show was that sometimes people just aren't capable of adapting, no matter how you want them too or how much you encourage and build them up, sometimes they just can't. And no matter how long or how hard we cling to idealism the world won't slow down, the shit won't stop hitting the fan just because someone needs a break.
Comments
To be fair, they were heading to a good direction with Sarah and Nick up until EP2, and after that it all changed.
Sarah has several dialogue lines in EP2 which suggests that she WAS trying to fit in and become a useful part of the group, she even says she wanted to be like Clem at the gun scene,and asks her to guide her, aware that her dad must not know, and that he would never let her do it otherwise. She saw Clem as a beacon of hope for finally learning about the world she was in now, and starting to be treated like she was part of the group. Who else was gonna teach her if not Clem? Her dad would never do it himself or allow anyone else to.
She was also aware of her dad's excessive coddling and how he treated her like she was stupid and useless, and she was visibly upset about it. "My dad told you not to tell me, didn't he?", and then if you call him out in front of her "You told me I had to distract her!" she actually gets pissed off and snaps at Carlos for treating her like she was an idiot behind her back.
I don't even have to get started with Nick's character development in EP1 and EP2 and how he suddenly was forgotten by everyone as soon as EP3 hit, right?
The writer for EP1 and 2 had the right idea about the season, imo. When they changed him for EP3 and 4 is when things started going downhill. I wish they could have somehow kept Nick Breckon as the writer for the entire season.
excellent post OP
I really disliked Sarah after episode two, since I saw her as a future plot device, but I liked her after episode three and mourned her after episode four.
Then Nick... i'll be honest, I didn't really care about him. I trusted him though. But either way, they really sucked at making me dislike those characters. I couldn't possibly dislike someone for being of lower intelligence, that's a stupid outlook upon things.
Well, my frustration with that dynamic would be diminished if Luke was made more sympathetic and prominent. But I'm also annoyed by the side-lining of other characters who had the potential to be interesting - trying to pull Nick out of his depression, trying to help Sarah gain independence from her father, trying to help Sarita come to grips with being an amputee.
And it disheartens me to find out that the writers and designers themselves seemed not to care much about those characters.
Unless you're someone who believes they're invincible and would never be weak or vulnerable or depressed or out of your depth. "To hell with people with mental problems, they're dead weight! Let 'em all rot!"
That mind-set in itself is a mental problem IMO.
I completely agree with this thread, which is not common for me. I absolutely loathe threads that hate something about Season 2 because honestly I'm a fanboy of some sort, but this one is well-made and pointed the only thing I don't like in Season 2 - characters deaths. Some of them are written perfectly and they made me sad, or, in Alvin's situation, make me shed a tear (Examples of good deaths in S2: Pete, Alvin, Rebecca [Even though she turned abruptly too, it made total sense and made me feel bad for her]...but some of them are...uh...bad. Bad or even horrible. Example of bad death is Omid, because it was unexpected, but at least, it made me feel a lot. Examples of horrible deaths are...dum dum dum...exactly, Sarah and Nick.
I won't point out bad things about those two deaths, because you did it already.
You know, when I played Episode 1 and 2, which were awesome (all episodes are awesome so far), I thought Nick Breckon had a plan for everyone. Nick is in depression, Sarah has anxiety disorder but IS TRYING to survive, Carlos is a shitty doctor, but a caring father, Rebecca's hormones are going crazy because of pregnancy, but she's caring mother and friend, and Alvin is...uh, Alvin. (Really, Alvin could use some character development, but his death redeemed it).
And then Pierre Shorette came.
And this other guy, I don't even know his name. George, perhaps? No idea right now, I'm too lazy to google it xD
And when they came, many things turned to shit. Why, Telltale? Why couldn't Nick Breckon write all the episodes and those two guys might've been additional writers, not the other way around? Hell, 13 years old kid, writing a fanfic for The Walking Dead, could handle their deaths better, if they really had to die in Amid The Ruins. Proof? I wrote some sort of a more complex story for Nick in Episode 4. (It could be better, I admit, but you'll see it's better, even though maybe only slightly better). Sarah gets mentioned, but I didn't really have an idea for her. (That makes me think that writers of an amazing story that is TWD should fucking cooperate with themselves and maybe even if they did in ATR, it wasn't shown too good.)
Okay, let's get to my version.
Ahem.
So, Nick gets shot in the herd attacking Hardware Store. Alrighty then, I can buy that. He wants to help Luke with finding Sarah and they both go after her after her dad, Carlos, was devoured horribly by walkers. Now, let's skip to the trailer park. Jane and Clem finds Nick stuck in the grid (I hope that's how this thing is called in english), but not as a zombie. We see him, struggling with a walker attacking him. Clem kills the walker. Nick tells her that Sarah and Luke are inside one of the trailers. He wanted to get help, so he sneaked out to run to Parker's Run, but the fate wanted him to get stuck in the grid. Due to the shot in the shoulder, he got weak and couldn't free himself and literally few minutes earlier, one of the walkers noticed him and wanted to feast on him, but we saved him. He complains that the wound burns like hell and he wishes to get patched up already.
Then, they're all on their way to the trailer. Jane teaches them both the knee trick. So, Nick will be useless for a short while, until we don't kill the walkers near the barricade. Jane tells them to draw the walkers to the barricade. Nick at first disagrees with this plan (thinking it's risky, the barricade might be too weak for this shitload of zombies), but he can be convinced by either Jane or Clem. And he finally agrees to do so.
While in the puzzle hub, Clem has a chance to talk with Nick. He's obviously worried about their best friends and hopes they're okay. After a while of awkward silence, he tells Clem to hurry up, because the door might break in a matter of time.
After solving the puzzle and seeing walkers coming this way, Nick smiles, but almost automatically runs away when Jane tells him to. While in the neighboruing trailer, Jane goes to kill the female walker slamming on the window, while Nick goes to other walker somewhere in this room (If Nick is killed in Episode 2, both walkers are being killed by Jane or there's just no second walker). They're both busy, so nobody warns Clem about walker behind her and she needs to find this walker for herself.
Then, the dead walker we put on the honk falls off. Jane tells them to move. Nick has a chance to say a funny line, like ''Fuck gravity'' or something. Their three runs to the trailer. Jane tells Clem to open the door, while she and Nick are killing the upcoming walkers.
When Clem ruins the door, she helps Jane barricade it again (Again, Nick can't do much with one hand). Luke comes out and is happy to see Nick. Luke thinks that Nick actually was in the Parker's Run to get help, but Nick doesn't even bother to tell the truth (another funny moment. See, Telltale, it's not too hard to do funny moments). Nick asks Luke about Sarah (If Nick's already dead, Clem can ask that question). Luke responds that it's not too good and Clem can help.
While in the room with Sarah, convincing her doesn't change except Nick will keep biting his thumb in the background (his nervous habit from Ep 1). Jane keeps insisting to leave Sarah when walkers are attacking, but Luke and Nick both disagree, yet Nick disagrees with a big aggresion. He can say something like ''Fuck you, Jane. You'd leave everyone, so shut the fuck up.'' And then the complex part of the story starts to roll.
If you leave Sarah: Everyone will get out, except, well, her. Nick is traumatized by her death. He wants to shoot her, so she doesn't turn, but he lost his weapon in the herd. Later, he's very angry at Jane for convincing Clementine to leave her. He doesn't hide his hatred for her. One of their arguments almost ended up in fight, but Luke calmed them down. While at Parker's Run, when Rebecca asks where's Sarah, he directly says Jane killed her. Not that she left her to die, that she killed her. Jane says it's not true and another argument arises. Clem can be part of it or stay silent. Later, Bonnie calls her out to talk with Kenny.
Then, he doesn't do much at Parker's Run. You have few chances to talk with him. He doesn't say much except how he hates Jane and wishes her the worst. He doesn't blame you for Sarah's death, though. He just says you were in a heat of the moment back at the trailer park and calls Jane a bitch. ''What a fucking bitch she is. I wish she'd left, but...that's unlikely, is it? What if she'll convince Luke to leave me once? (At this moment forum members could speculate about possible foreshadowing) Having her in the group is risky.''
Later, walkers attack Parker's Run. He's the one to warn the group about them, since Sarah's dead. So he just escapes. Later at the observation deck, he and Clem are the first to climb up the stairs and discover Luke and Jane jerking off. He's really, REALLY mad at him. Example of the conversation:
Luke: Clementine?!
[Dialogue option]
Luke: It's not like that, ugh...
Nick: Luke? What the fuck? How could you do this to me? Did Carver mess you up too well back at the Howe's?!
Luke: Nick, come on...Please...Don't be mad right now. Tell me what the hell is going on.
Nick: Fuck you, Luke. There. Continue fucking people I hate. Maybe you'll go back to the hardware store to fuck Carver's body, you son of a bitch?!
Luke: Nick...
Then Rebecca comes with the others and Kenny starts arguing with Luke. She starts to deliver the baby. Nick helps the others with keeping the walkers off them. When Luke and Clem are pushing the cannon, part of the dock falls. Jane almost falls, and Nick...he falls completely. But he's not stuck under the planks. He quickly climbs up again, seeing walkers being close. But he fell on left arm (the one that got shot) and now he completely can't move it. Then he doesn't do anything for a while, until we don't drop the whole deck.
After holding Rebecca's baby, we don't go to Jane first. Clem automatically goes to Nick, sitting alone at the edge of the ruined deck.
Clem: Hey, Nick.
Nick: ....Hi.
Clem: Are you still angry at Luke?
Nick: Yes I am. He betrayed me. I can't believe he did this after twenty years of our friendship. Jerking off with a person I hated, loathed and other good synonyms. I just...can't believe it. I don't want to look at him. And my hand hurts...I can't move it. Fucking cannon.
Clem: sad eyes
Nick: I appreciate you're checking up on me, but I'd rather be alone now.
And then Clem spots Jane leaving. They're talking, blah blah blah. Luke is angry at Jane leaving. Kenny starts arguing with him. Nick joins, saying that's good she left and that Luke should learn on his mistakes. Then, there's the choice about leaving immediately or after few days. Nick actually agrees with Luke on this one.
He's later seen with the others on the journey, being rather silent, but trying to calm down both Luke and Kenny when they're arguing. He dies later at Episode 5, in the shootout with Russians.
If you save Sarah: Nick is the last one to being pulled up. Unfortunately, walkers get him and bit him in the ankle. He doesn't fall down, though. Luke insists to pull him up and they do. At the roof, he sits for a while, looking at his bite. He immediately thinks of Uncle Pete and his situation. In the forest, he's happy that Sarah survived and smiles to her, but he's really mad at Jane for insisting to leave her and he points it out. Then Luke worries about Nick's situation and his bite. He doesn't want him to die and comforts him as best as he can.
At Parker's Run, Rebecca is happy to see everyone alive, but almost immediately notices the wound on Nick's ankle. Nick explains the situation to everyone. Rebecca cries, saying her ''No...No...''. He's not so important later on. We can talk to him while exploring Parker's Run. All he will say that he hates Jane, but doesn't call her a bitch, yet he still wants her to die, adding lines like ''When I turn, I'll be happy to eat her.''.
Now, skipping to the observation deck. In this situation, only Clem notices what Luke and Jane were doing, because Nick is weak and slow, climbing up the stairs is hard for him. He doesn't understand the argument between Kenny and Luke and he calms them both down.
Even if he's really weak and tired, he decides to help everyone with keeping walkers at distance from Rebecca at shoots some of them. When Luke and Clem are rolling the cannon, Sarah and Jane almost fall. Yes, almost. While Jane is quickly caught by Luke and Clem, Nick catches her. He's too weak to hold her for too long, so when Jane is back at the deck, Luke helps Nick with pulling Sarah up. She has her eyes wide open. She's seen hugging Nick (Cute moments are cool too.).
Later, after holding Rebecca's baby, Kenny takes them, but Sarah asks him to hold the baby too and Kenny lets her.
Meanwhile, Clem goes to talk with Jane. She passes Nick outside the gift shop. He's starting to be pale. Clem makes sad eyes and proceeds to talk with Jane.
When Luke and Kenny are arguing, Nick won't be a part of it. He can barely say anything. After the argument, Bonnie approaches Clem to talk about Nick and tells her that eventually we'll have to end his suffering. She says people were too busy with other walkers so far, but we need to start worrying about that. Clem nods. Then there's the decision about leaving. It's a major decision for Nick's fate.
If they leave at first night: Nick is seen going with others...kind of. Luke drags him, because he passed out not so long ago. Kenny insists to put a bullet in his head before he attacks someone. Luke refuses, saying he checked everything and he's still breathing. Then there's the argument about decision that we made. Kenny thinks it was right, Luke thinks it was wrong.
At the same time, Sarah starts talking with Clem. She says ''Thanks...for not leaving me when you could.''
Dialogue options:
[No problem.]
[I couldn't leave my friend].
[I considered leaving you].
[...]
Later, Luke puts Nick near Rebecca's ''place to sit'', on the snow. Not really cool, but there was no space for him. Then the Russians arrive and shootout starts. But Nick turns at the beginning of Episode 5, biting one of the Russians, making him determinant. (See, Telltale? It's possible for Nick to be useful even after his death).
If they left after few days: We don't go automatically to the scene with the snow. We find ourselves again on observation deck. Snow is laying all around. Almost everyone are sleeping, Clem also. Suddenly, she hears a gunshot and immediately wakes up. She left the gift shop to see a horrible image at the ruined deck. Luke with a pistol in his hand, which was shaking like jelly, and...dead Nick in front of him, in a hole in his forehead. Luke actually sheds few tears. He tells us that he turned and he was the first one to discover it. Everyone else wake up. Horrified Luke couldn't bottle his emotions anymore. He...he had to kill Nick. The group is trying to comfort him. They succeed. Luke at the end says ''Let's go already. I can't stand this god-forsaken place. Please''. And then we cut to the scene where our group is going through the snow, arguments, Sarah and Clem talking etc.
The decision about when to leave won't change Sarah's fate. She can be either killed in the shootout or after that, where she can finally use a gun and prove that the training in Ep 2 wasn't worthless. Let's say, the survivors are escaping to the town we saw earlier. But the shootout attracted walkers. Sarah decides to take a pistol and shoot her way out. If we didn't teach her, she dies on her way to the town. If we did, she can somehow die in the town. (Nick Breckon can write her death scene).
See! I have proof!
I'm pretty impressed. This is definitely one the of the better alternatives I've seen anyone write. Can someone point this to the telltale writers so they can see how much better this could have been?
Damn, son. I actually like this alternate path.
How exactly was Nick "disabled?" I always thought he was just bad with a gun.
That is the most true comment i've ever seen. SOMEONE GIVE THIS GUY A FUCKING MEDAL!
And to think people call ME crazy!
That's really amazing, I only see one problem: I believe Mike would suggest cutting off Nick's leg (or do it himself). Remember when Reggie said 'it's like he's done it before'?
But then again, Mike wasn't with Clem and Jane looking for Luke, Nick and Sarah, so the infection in Nick's bite would have probably already spread enough that cutting off the limb wouldn't work. This could also become another decision, similar to what we had in 105 with Lee's arm.
Yeah, it could work too - decision with cutting off Nick's leg. Of course, it would end up with Nick dying, but at least we'd try. Or, if it's really necessary for Nick to die no matter what, we could make Clem loose her hatchet (only good tool to cut off someone's limb).
Yeah... They massively succeeded on my account. I hate Nick more than any other character. Wish I understood the fascination, but to me he just comes off as a drunken idiot that gets people killed.
I don't agree with some important things you've said, though I agree with a fair amount. I personally relate to Nick as well, and I was saddened when he and Sarah died with no proper buildup; there was a lot of wasted potential. I agree with your observation of how this season, we're meant to have the option of becoming like Crawford. The hopelessness of these characters' deaths is supposed to be wearing us down and is supposed to get us to take the more heartless Crawford choices. And it's worked! People have made entire threads about how they won't be taking the nice choices anymore post 204, because of the shitty circumstances created by the writers. I think it's impressive when TT can not just develop their own characters, but also change their own players' mindsets. I don't think TT is just trying to be "realistic"; I really think they're trying to simulate the terrible things that can happen to wear Clem and the others down to make these heartless choices in the future.
I think it's pessimistic of you to think Sarah's and Nick's first deaths were canon and their second deaths were afterthoughts (though their poor writing made them seem like afterthoughts, true). Choosing to save them may not have made a big difference to Sarah's and Nick's characters in the long run, but it makes a difference to your Clem. Will she give in to Crawford's logic or not?
I don't agree with Crawford at all, period. But I have to say even though I'm an optimist, I'm a realist first. I can relate to what Nick was going through, but I also know that if you don't try to pick yourself up, take steps to help yourself, and try to "be strong" as Clem urges Sarah to be, things won't always end well.
But like you said, Nick and Sarah did fight to survive and keep going. I feel that after the surely-saddening episode 205, Clem could soon find herself in Nick's shoes in terms of depression affecting her more, so I hope her reassessing of this lesson to "get back up" could work into her story. Then Nick's and Sarah's deaths wouldn't be in so much vain hopefully.
I let Nick die in Episode 2 and I didn't save Sarah just because I'm doing an playthrough right now
with a very hardened Clem so I agree if you let them die their deaths were handed very good it made you think about what you did
and actually fitted a Clem who is becoming more of a survivor (like Jane) and Carver's words at the end of Episode 3 also get more meaning
BUT I think people who saved them should also be rewarded for that I don't like how Telltale wants everyone on their bleak and depressive path for
Clem if you really are a good person then you should be rewarded and not
just showing the middle finger to them and saying nope Crawford/Carver were right people like Nick and Sarah are not worth it!
Well, what i mean by that is I always interrupted these deaths as people that couldn't be saved. I think they were meant to kill any hope the player was supposed to feel. You grow attached to them, want to save them, then they die to leave the player feeling hopeless. I think they were created to play a purpose to make Clementine's character maybe more jaded if she survives next season. As uncle Pete says, "Everyone has to play a role, even if the people you love them for it, hate you. for it.
We love Nick/Sarah, we hate the way they died, know what i mean. This is what i meant when i said, Artsey Fartsey.
I agree...I really liked characters in this game that showed their...weaknesses(Nick's depression and Sarah' innocence).
I really thought that they knew what they were doing with them after finishing EP2...But after EP3 & EP4...it just...I dont even know what to say...
I never expected this game to ignore good potential in characters...
Thank you, Tobi
I actually agree with you on the point that the bleakness of this episode has converted some players into becoming cynical. But it's the execution of this theme, particularly in the callous way the doomed characters were treated both by a vocal portion of the internet as well as their own writers, which makes me question the intention of the developers.
Who knows. I'd love to have a uplifting, bittersweet end to the Season with Clem reunited with Christa. It's the only way that will convince me that Season 3 won't just be another slog through relentless bleakness while only the cold-blooded, irritating characters remain alive.
Depression is a disability.
He doesn't even have the luck to have the plot's protection on his side, as Kenny does. Kenny's importance to the plot allowed him to somehow be The Only Man who could possibly help Rebecca out, disregarding what Clementine herself might have picked up from Christa.
I agree with everything here.
Especially this.
The deaths they receive if you chose to save them are lazy, confusing, contrived, and barely get a reaction from anyone. It makes it seem like their "good" deaths were afterthoughts, whereas their "bad" deaths were the ones planned all along and meant to be considered canon.
Compare it to Ben's. Both of Ben's deaths were impactful--saving him felt like a real choice and it was worth it, because he blew up at Kenny. His second death was SO meaningful, with Kenny going to save him. It broke my heart and it was an amazing completion to both their character arcs.
Nick and Sarah didn't get that in their second deaths. They were around for a little longer. Sarah huddled and panicked, Nick just gushed about Luke, then they died with barely any acknowledgement from anyone.
Honestly I really do think they were rewritten, especially given the nonsequitor title cards.
I know people are mad about Greg Miller. He was disgusting.
I'm not going to repeat myself. I've already explained why this is a lazy, cop-out excuse from a literary standpoint because it's clear this wasn't Telltale's intention when they wrote the scenes. Lee's death, Ben's death--THOSE deaths had that meaning. These deaths did not. Nick and Sarah were just fridged, plan and simple.
I agree 100%!
Beautifully said. Honestly one of the most thought out and well made threads I've seen in a loooong time.
Oh, and bonus points for not being either a hate thread or a "where they went wrong" thread.
Just make sure to delete your two twin comments. :P
UGH! THIS WAS REALLY GOOD DANG IT! I'm so annoyed with how things actually happened after reading that. Great job!
It made no sense to me that Christa wasn't mentioned at all. You would think this would be very traumatizing for Clem, considering how Christa is implied to have lost her baby.
The game makes Clementine go through the motions of the plot but it never once touches on her emotions and feelings, and she's quite clearly struggling with a lot of heavy stuff herself. The trailer tricked me into thinking Luke was going to talk to her about her feelings, but when he said "Are you okay?" and I chose to say "No", he just shrugged it off and started talking about Jane.
It's insane how we're all making these things based on Telltale's work. They make the original version and the fans came up with better versions based on those errors the original made. It's crazy!
Haha, I've actually been writing a fan fiction where Nick, Sarah, and Sarita make it out of the herd and survive together. A lot of people have been diving into stuff like that after episode 4.
Well, then I'm sorry for you that you couldn't see what we saw.
I think the developers knew exactly what they were doing by trolling us with the ending of E4's trailer - that Clementine's chance to have a heart-to-heart with Luke is quickly brushed off so that he can talk about his tryst with a shifty woman he met a day ago.
Unfortunately, that kind of bait-and-switch is the bad kind of surprise. The one that diminishes our chance to empathize with our protagonist and their ostensible deuteragonist.
I've been considering that too. Actually I want to write my version of the whole season! But... I'm not sure I'll be able to fit that into my schedule considering how busy I am.
Yeah, I was stupid enough to do a TRIPLE post. So beat that!
Speaking as someone with a [physical] disability I can get your viewpoint. People with disabilities fight an uphill battle in all spheres of life. But that doesn't make your life mean more. Just because you need support or protection doesn't mean your life is worth more than those doing the protection. People died protecting/sheltering Sarah, or died because of her inability to act and function autonomously. Where do you draw the line? How many people die protecting someone before it becomes too much? I'm studying psychology so I get the reasons for Sarah's inability better than most but that doesn't change facts. Sarah did not just not contribute anything to the survival of the group she actively detracted from their chances of survival simply by existing. It's not fair and it's brutal and I felt terribly for leaving her behind in that trailer park [after trying to convince her to leave, again, against my better judgement] but I don't regret the decision for a moment. Cognitively anyway. Emotionally it feels kinda sucky.
Nick didn't have a disability. He was fine, actually. He screwed up sometimes, sometimes badly but not to the extent Ben did and he was still capable of contributing to the group, unlike Sarah.
In my opinion, in a survival situation like that, you need to be able to contribute in SOME way. I wouldn't be able to walk as far as other members of my group or do heavy lifting for extended periods of time but I'm smart, I'm a quick learner and I'm willing to make decisions [and take the flak] for decisions other people shy away from. I like to think that my pros outweigh my cons but if I found out people were dying to protect me I would hate myself. Unless of course they did it because they needed me for Y in which case it would be almost self preservation on their part, if the dying on my behalf was borne from them feeling that I needed protection then I'd feel shitty. I'm not noble enough to commit suicide in such a situation but I'd understand being left behind and perhaps even separate from the group willingly. If we assume all human life is equal then it makes no sense to keep someone around whose already cost lives and shows no signs of reformation.
So no, I don't think Telltale wanted us to hate Sarah and Nick. I think what they wanted to show was that sometimes people just aren't capable of adapting, no matter how you want them too or how much you encourage and build them up, sometimes they just can't. And no matter how long or how hard we cling to idealism the world won't slow down, the shit won't stop hitting the fan just because someone needs a break.