Yeah, they decide to kill a whole group of innocent people just because they had to do menial chores that didn't get them beaten unless they did something wrong. It seemed selfish to me that they didn't even try to get other people from the community convinced to leave as well (if Carver is all as bad as he's been made out to be, they would be overjoyed to leave even at the risk of dying, like the original cabin group in the first place), or even give the rest of the community a warning. Just seems that they've become the antagonists to an otherwise happy community.
They just wanted to leave with Luke. Rebecca and Alvin for obvious reasons. Reggie, Bonnie (originally but dropped out), Carlos and Sarah (C… morearlos felt it best to protect Sarah I suppose), Nick and Pete (Nick was close friends with Luke, Pete had to look after Nick).
Wow a lot of dead characters listed in there.
But it seems to me like it wasn't really up to debate as to how the group would be run- Carver was the leader and it wasn't a democracy, it was a dictatorship. The one thing I don't get though- why would Luke and Carver butt heads? Carver seems to have treated the people who haven't wronged him alright, seems even pretty reasonable to Clem in the beginning despite his extreme punishments for meagre, petty offences (like slapping Clem across the face for not giving him an apologetic response for "eavesdropping"). Carver also provides them with food and water, a safe, walled community and a new way to reconnect with people- he only murdered the people who didn't want to join his idea of utopia, and I doubt them dying would of affected Luke in any way. He had no reason to butt heads with Carver, except maybe he wanted to be leader himself.
If I remember correctly I can't remember which character said it, but Luke had different ideas of how the camp should be runned and they butted heads supposedly. They would be Lukes incentive to leave I guess, not sure about the others though.
Carver does try to be reasonable to some extent, however. I don't know if he would have let them back into the group, but they didn't have to kill a whole community if they had all the time in the world to leave. They made it out to be "now or never," but they could of just asked Bonnie to postpone the plan for obvious reasons (they had become a "dogshit group of crippled fucks," and were in no condition to escape) and then just have come up with a better plan that wouldn't result in people getting killed because of it. The funny thing is, they try to escape a vicious tyrant that murders innocent people and end up murdering even more innocent people than the tyrant in the process. In trying to escape a murderer, they become one.
Well, depending on how much you trust Luke's assessment and the conversation between Tavia and Hank on the radio, the hoard of walkers would have swept over the compound anyway. I believe Hank says something about the interior probably being able to withstand the hoard but not the expansion, which I think includes the probation yard. It was still a Vernon-esque dick move on the cabin group's part not to give anyone a heads up but I can sorta understand why they couldn't.
It's not really plotholes. They all simply wanted to get away from Carver and his community because he was holding them there against their will. Carver is a psychopath who tortures and kills people who don't live up to his standards or betray him in the slightest without mercy. No one would ever want to live like this. Even if the security is good.
Luke was the one who pitched the initial idea to leave, the reason being is because Luke is a very moral person and dissagreed with killing people that meant no harm, I suspect the rest of the cabin group didn't like it either, I think it was also mentioned that Rebecca spoke out against Carver too, Nick would obviously tag along with his bestie and his family would have probably wanted to go too, it seemed like Luke, Nick, Nicks mom, and Pete were originally in a group before Carvers so they'd likely stick together, Carlos probably didn't see Carvers camp as a save place for Sarah as she would be considered a danger to the group and a burden. Im not quite sure why it doesn't make sence
They say "now or never" because Carver seems to be becoming increasingly unstable. Even if he was technically "provoked", the guy's just loosing it. There's no telling what he'll do next or how he plans to keep them in line after Kenny's beating. They couldn't take another day of Carver's shit.
As for the people in Howe's, it's obviously a bad thing, but they were the ones standing between the group and their freedom. Cruel as it may be to see them as mere obstacles, all of them, even the ones that didn't carry guns, were Carver's pawns (with the notable exception of Bonnie). Not to mention that if the prisoners just escaped again, Carver would go chasing them again. They needed to make sure this time they were safe. It was selfish, but that's self-preservation. Ironically, it sounds to me like something Carver would approve.
Carver does try to be reasonable to some extent, however. I don't know if he would have let them back into the group, but they didn't have t… moreo kill a whole community if they had all the time in the world to leave. They made it out to be "now or never," but they could of just asked Bonnie to postpone the plan for obvious reasons (they had become a "dogshit group of crippled fucks," and were in no condition to escape) and then just have come up with a better plan that wouldn't result in people getting killed because of it. The funny thing is, they try to escape a vicious tyrant that murders innocent people and end up murdering even more innocent people than the tyrant in the process. In trying to escape a murderer, they become one.
From what little we're given, we can assume that Rebecca was Carver's private assistant as she once gave announcements out in his office and presumably spent most of her time with him. Over time, he took a liking to her and likely used his position over her (good shepherd and all that) to blackmail/shame her into complying with his dream of having an heir. I assume that once her pregnancy could no longer be hidden and Alvin got suspicious, she admitted that she was being taken advantage of and that pissed him off to the point that he killed a friend of Carver's.
I assume that Sarah was isolated from other people, especially children, even when she was in Carver's community. Carver describes Carlos as a "real smug son of a bitch" and the scene where he forces Carlos to discipline Sarah hints at them butting heads over how to raise a child. After he kills Reggie, you can notice Carver putting a hand on Sarah's shoulder and pretending to be all fatherly to her.
We don't know anything about Mike, but I assume that he and Jane were both strangers who were caught by the community and used as laborers - neither of them are very happy to be in Carver's community, Jane because of Carver's instability and Mike because of his friend Reggie's murder. I also believe they were taken in while Carver was out looking for Rebecca. The fact that Nick associates the massacre at the river with Carver's M.O. seems to indicate to me that Carver has had clashes with hostile groups before, and is able to justify to his community the use of laborers by painting them all to be bandits and traitors. Plus the prisoners' isolation from the community means that most of its members are unaware of how neglectful their treatment of newcomers is.
Okay, you make a fair point. Carver is indeed a vicious psychopath and a tyrant, but I don't think that Rebecca was raped- based off dialogu… moree and the fact that Rebecca didn't tell Alvin. She was probably feeling ashamed, remorseful and guilty to have ever thought Carver was alright and to have had an affair with him, not to have gotten raped, which she couldn't have avoided if it did happen and it wouldn't have been her fault. For all the stress and pain of the unknown as to whether the baby is hers or not, I'm sure she would have told Alvin if Carver had raped her and that Alvin would have been incredibly pissed and still loved her like any good husband would. Besides, she's remorseful and guilty. Rebecca had her hand in herself getting pregnant. As for Carlos, Carver wouldn't have mistreated or emotionally and physically abused Sarah while she was in the group. The group Carver rules over seem relatively content based off of the fact that t… [view original content]
Alright, it just seems to petty of Luke to want to leave. I mean, it is really is lambs to slaughter- no food, water or shelter out there. It's not going to stop the people Carver kills from dying by leading more people out in the wilderness to die. And Carver's group is fully armed with guns, and a van and radios- why and how did they think they would be able to evade Carver forever?
Luke was the one who pitched the initial idea to leave, the reason being is because Luke is a very moral person and dissagreed with killing … morepeople that meant no harm, I suspect the rest of the cabin group didn't like it either, I think it was also mentioned that Rebecca spoke out against Carver too, Nick would obviously tag along with his bestie and his family would have probably wanted to go too, it seemed like Luke, Nick, Nicks mom, and Pete were originally in a group before Carvers so they'd likely stick together, Carlos probably didn't see Carvers camp as a save place for Sarah as she would be considered a danger to the group and a burden. Im not quite sure why it doesn't make sence
Well Alvin at least didn't think that Carver would go that far to track them down (possibly because he didn't know that the baby might not be his...which actually makes it even more of a dick move on Rebecca's part that she didn't tell him).
Alright, it just seems to petty of Luke to want to leave. I mean, it is really is lambs to slaughter- no food, water or shelter out there. I… moret's not going to stop the people Carver kills from dying by leading more people out in the wilderness to die. And Carver's group is fully armed with guns, and a van and radios- why and how did they think they would be able to evade Carver forever?
Even so they could have spread guts on them and walked the OTHER way. Someone really didn't think it through. They could have gone that way and then headed the direction to Parker's Run.
I'm guessing Rebecca was probably his assistant and that he did use his persuasiveness and manipulative traits to convince her to have sex with him- however, it is more just the technique of a rapist getting close to their victim as opposed to directly raping them. I don't think Alvin knows. Rebecca says stuff like "he'll kill me if he finds out," and "if Alvin knew…". Alvin probably just killed George as it came to doing so being an inevitability- George is mentioned to have been Alvin's friend too, and it came to Alvin having to murder him in order to escape, as George may have been a guard or just a person that would tell Carver and be a saboteur to the group's plan.
As for Sarah, I do believe that Carver wanted to have some part in raising her the "right" way. However, no evidence is given to state that she would have been separated from other children and the rest of the group in order to be mentored by Carver- in fact, evidence of this is the fact that Becca knows her and well enough apparently so to dislike her (though Becca seems to dislike almost everyone).
It is isn't mentioned why Mike is in the yard (he may have been captured and held for manual labour against his will, as you stated) though it is strongly implied that Jane is in the yard for covering herself in walker guts and attempting to leave Howe's in the same manner that the group does at the end of ep 3, not for being captured and then held as a slave. Out of hundreds of people, only 3 people (excluding the cabin group and Mike) really showed a dislike to their treatment by Carver and tried to escape, which really means that at least some of the Howe's group is content to be there. The people kept in the yard are most likely, as you mentioned, ostracised and marginalised by the rest of the group after being painted as murders, thieves and bandits by Carver- his message over the loud speaker explaining them as "family" (another manipulation technique of his; he paints himself out to be some sort of righteous person that accepts everyone into his group despite what they've done) proves this. I believe that Carver, like you mentioned, is known by his people to be a decent leader while in fact he is an abusive psychopath when they aren't looking- but he is kind to his people, it's all a part of his "charming" act he can turn on and off like a switch like we saw when he first encountered Clem. This means that the cabin group (apart from Rebecca) probably didn't have any real incentive to leave if all they saw was his "charming" act and he was nice to them.
From what little we're given, we can assume that Rebecca was Carver's private assistant as she once gave announcements out in his office and… more presumably spent most of her time with him. Over time, he took a liking to her and likely used his position over her (good shepherd and all that) to blackmail/shame her into complying with his dream of having an heir. I assume that once her pregnancy could no longer be hidden and Alvin got suspicious, she admitted that she was being taken advantage of and that pissed him off to the point that he killed a friend of Carver's.
I assume that Sarah was isolated from other people, especially children, even when she was in Carver's community. Carver describes Carlos as a "real smug son of a bitch" and the scene where he forces Carlos to discipline Sarah hints at them butting heads over how to raise a child. After he kills Reggie, you can notice Carver putting a hand on Sarah's shoulder and pretending to … [view original content]
What you mentioned just made me realise something- no one from the cabin group knows that Rebecca had an affair with Carver (except Luke, maybe, based off of his comment on a man walking hundreds of miles to get his family back). I guess they didn't think or know that Carver would go that far to find them- they just thought they were some randoms that escaped and Carver wouldn't put that much effort nor emphasis on finding them again.
Well Alvin at least didn't think that Carver would go that far to track them down (possibly because he didn't know that the baby might not be his...which actually makes it even more of a dick move on Rebecca's part that she didn't tell him).
Well true, it may not stop Carver from doing those things, but if Luke stayed he would be supporting such actions, think about Crawford, it was really safe there but nobody seems to be confused why Molly left, she didn't want to support something like that or be a part of it, same with Luke.
Alright, it just seems to petty of Luke to want to leave. I mean, it is really is lambs to slaughter- no food, water or shelter out there. I… moret's not going to stop the people Carver kills from dying by leading more people out in the wilderness to die. And Carver's group is fully armed with guns, and a van and radios- why and how did they think they would be able to evade Carver forever?
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Yeah, they decide to kill a whole group of innocent people just because they had to do menial chores that didn't get them beaten unless they did something wrong. It seemed selfish to me that they didn't even try to get other people from the community convinced to leave as well (if Carver is all as bad as he's been made out to be, they would be overjoyed to leave even at the risk of dying, like the original cabin group in the first place), or even give the rest of the community a warning. Just seems that they've become the antagonists to an otherwise happy community.
It's sad to see so many dead characters listed in the same sentence
But it seems to me like it wasn't really up to debate as to how the group would be run- Carver was the leader and it wasn't a democracy, it was a dictatorship. The one thing I don't get though- why would Luke and Carver butt heads? Carver seems to have treated the people who haven't wronged him alright, seems even pretty reasonable to Clem in the beginning despite his extreme punishments for meagre, petty offences (like slapping Clem across the face for not giving him an apologetic response for "eavesdropping"). Carver also provides them with food and water, a safe, walled community and a new way to reconnect with people- he only murdered the people who didn't want to join his idea of utopia, and I doubt them dying would of affected Luke in any way. He had no reason to butt heads with Carver, except maybe he wanted to be leader himself.
Carver does try to be reasonable to some extent, however. I don't know if he would have let them back into the group, but they didn't have to kill a whole community if they had all the time in the world to leave. They made it out to be "now or never," but they could of just asked Bonnie to postpone the plan for obvious reasons (they had become a "dogshit group of crippled fucks," and were in no condition to escape) and then just have come up with a better plan that wouldn't result in people getting killed because of it. The funny thing is, they try to escape a vicious tyrant that murders innocent people and end up murdering even more innocent people than the tyrant in the process. In trying to escape a murderer, they become one.
Well, depending on how much you trust Luke's assessment and the conversation between Tavia and Hank on the radio, the hoard of walkers would have swept over the compound anyway. I believe Hank says something about the interior probably being able to withstand the hoard but not the expansion, which I think includes the probation yard. It was still a Vernon-esque dick move on the cabin group's part not to give anyone a heads up but I can sorta understand why they couldn't.
It's not really plotholes. They all simply wanted to get away from Carver and his community because he was holding them there against their will. Carver is a psychopath who tortures and kills people who don't live up to his standards or betray him in the slightest without mercy. No one would ever want to live like this. Even if the security is good.
You can't just throw someone In Harm's Way and say they can't live without you when you're the source of the harm!
Luke was the one who pitched the initial idea to leave, the reason being is because Luke is a very moral person and dissagreed with killing people that meant no harm, I suspect the rest of the cabin group didn't like it either, I think it was also mentioned that Rebecca spoke out against Carver too, Nick would obviously tag along with his bestie and his family would have probably wanted to go too, it seemed like Luke, Nick, Nicks mom, and Pete were originally in a group before Carvers so they'd likely stick together, Carlos probably didn't see Carvers camp as a save place for Sarah as she would be considered a danger to the group and a burden. Im not quite sure why it doesn't make sence
They say "now or never" because Carver seems to be becoming increasingly unstable. Even if he was technically "provoked", the guy's just loosing it. There's no telling what he'll do next or how he plans to keep them in line after Kenny's beating. They couldn't take another day of Carver's shit.
As for the people in Howe's, it's obviously a bad thing, but they were the ones standing between the group and their freedom. Cruel as it may be to see them as mere obstacles, all of them, even the ones that didn't carry guns, were Carver's pawns (with the notable exception of Bonnie). Not to mention that if the prisoners just escaped again, Carver would go chasing them again. They needed to make sure this time they were safe. It was selfish, but that's self-preservation. Ironically, it sounds to me like something Carver would approve.
From what little we're given, we can assume that Rebecca was Carver's private assistant as she once gave announcements out in his office and presumably spent most of her time with him. Over time, he took a liking to her and likely used his position over her (good shepherd and all that) to blackmail/shame her into complying with his dream of having an heir. I assume that once her pregnancy could no longer be hidden and Alvin got suspicious, she admitted that she was being taken advantage of and that pissed him off to the point that he killed a friend of Carver's.
I assume that Sarah was isolated from other people, especially children, even when she was in Carver's community. Carver describes Carlos as a "real smug son of a bitch" and the scene where he forces Carlos to discipline Sarah hints at them butting heads over how to raise a child. After he kills Reggie, you can notice Carver putting a hand on Sarah's shoulder and pretending to be all fatherly to her.
We don't know anything about Mike, but I assume that he and Jane were both strangers who were caught by the community and used as laborers - neither of them are very happy to be in Carver's community, Jane because of Carver's instability and Mike because of his friend Reggie's murder. I also believe they were taken in while Carver was out looking for Rebecca. The fact that Nick associates the massacre at the river with Carver's M.O. seems to indicate to me that Carver has had clashes with hostile groups before, and is able to justify to his community the use of laborers by painting them all to be bandits and traitors. Plus the prisoners' isolation from the community means that most of its members are unaware of how neglectful their treatment of newcomers is.
Alright, it just seems to petty of Luke to want to leave. I mean, it is really is lambs to slaughter- no food, water or shelter out there. It's not going to stop the people Carver kills from dying by leading more people out in the wilderness to die. And Carver's group is fully armed with guns, and a van and radios- why and how did they think they would be able to evade Carver forever?
Well Alvin at least didn't think that Carver would go that far to track them down (possibly because he didn't know that the baby might not be his...which actually makes it even more of a dick move on Rebecca's part that she didn't tell him).
Even so they could have spread guts on them and walked the OTHER way. Someone really didn't think it through. They could have gone that way and then headed the direction to Parker's Run.
I'm guessing Rebecca was probably his assistant and that he did use his persuasiveness and manipulative traits to convince her to have sex with him- however, it is more just the technique of a rapist getting close to their victim as opposed to directly raping them. I don't think Alvin knows. Rebecca says stuff like "he'll kill me if he finds out," and "if Alvin knew…". Alvin probably just killed George as it came to doing so being an inevitability- George is mentioned to have been Alvin's friend too, and it came to Alvin having to murder him in order to escape, as George may have been a guard or just a person that would tell Carver and be a saboteur to the group's plan.
As for Sarah, I do believe that Carver wanted to have some part in raising her the "right" way. However, no evidence is given to state that she would have been separated from other children and the rest of the group in order to be mentored by Carver- in fact, evidence of this is the fact that Becca knows her and well enough apparently so to dislike her (though Becca seems to dislike almost everyone).
It is isn't mentioned why Mike is in the yard (he may have been captured and held for manual labour against his will, as you stated) though it is strongly implied that Jane is in the yard for covering herself in walker guts and attempting to leave Howe's in the same manner that the group does at the end of ep 3, not for being captured and then held as a slave. Out of hundreds of people, only 3 people (excluding the cabin group and Mike) really showed a dislike to their treatment by Carver and tried to escape, which really means that at least some of the Howe's group is content to be there. The people kept in the yard are most likely, as you mentioned, ostracised and marginalised by the rest of the group after being painted as murders, thieves and bandits by Carver- his message over the loud speaker explaining them as "family" (another manipulation technique of his; he paints himself out to be some sort of righteous person that accepts everyone into his group despite what they've done) proves this. I believe that Carver, like you mentioned, is known by his people to be a decent leader while in fact he is an abusive psychopath when they aren't looking- but he is kind to his people, it's all a part of his "charming" act he can turn on and off like a switch like we saw when he first encountered Clem. This means that the cabin group (apart from Rebecca) probably didn't have any real incentive to leave if all they saw was his "charming" act and he was nice to them.
What you mentioned just made me realise something- no one from the cabin group knows that Rebecca had an affair with Carver (except Luke, maybe, based off of his comment on a man walking hundreds of miles to get his family back). I guess they didn't think or know that Carver would go that far to find them- they just thought they were some randoms that escaped and Carver wouldn't put that much effort nor emphasis on finding them again.
The entire season could literally be described as a collection of plot-holes.
Well true, it may not stop Carver from doing those things, but if Luke stayed he would be supporting such actions, think about Crawford, it was really safe there but nobody seems to be confused why Molly left, she didn't want to support something like that or be a part of it, same with Luke.