She also cried when Kenny told her to stay at Wellington and leave him. I don't see much reason for Clem, psychopath or not, to cry in that … moresituation .It's so transparently obvious the writing was specifically tailored to people who sympathized with Kenny, and no one else.
Yeah, well, Lilly regretted shooting Doug, yet no one cuts her any slack. I really can't forgive Kenny trying to murder someone for, from his point of view, accidentally getting AJ killed. What Jane did was really shitty too, but at least I'm certain she won't try to unjustly kill anyone in an overprotective rage. After all, she clearly felt bad about killing the Russian, and she sympathized with Mike and Bonnie when they left even though they got Clem shot.
It wasn't justified for sure, and I don't agree that Kenny should have up and killed Jane, but heck even if you let him, to some agree, you … morecould maybe see some signs of regret in his eyes in the Wellington ending, I don't know, this episode really tried to make each character have good or bad qualities, in my opinion, they're both nuts. and Clem is better off.
I'd hope that even the most diehard Kenny fans could understand why Season 2 was very annoying for people who didn't like Kenny. Seriously Kenny fans, just try playing through the game pretending you don't like Kenny. It's not gonna be an enjoyable experience.
I personally liked Kenny (most of the time) but I agree with you op. Being forced to like him by the game was really unfair to people that didn't like him.
They could have just added that crying animation in depending on your previous interactions with Luke. She could have cried if they had a good relationship or just felt bad if they didn't. That's an easy fix.
Difference is that the way Clem was written, it was almost completely impossible not to like her. She was ultimately a character almost anyone could sympathize with. The Lee-Clem relationship can be excused because the vast majority already agreed with it, and said relationship was actually developed on screen, while the Kenny-Clem relationship was entirely based on the assumption that Clem liked Kenny even though they never interacted in season 1. In other words, their bond came out of nowhere, and was more built on the players feelings for Kenny, not Clem's.
And with unlike Clem in season 1, people have far more reason not to sympathize with Kenny. He's famous for being one of the most divisive characters in the game, yet Telltale was completely blind to the sizable portion of the fanbase that didn't like him.
The problem is that Clem's relationship with Kenny was ill-defined in Season 1 - he was important to players because he was effectively Lee's adult companion, but Clementine herself never had much to do or say about Kenny. In fact, what we see of her reactions to him are unflattering - she was terrified when he crushed a man's skull in front of her regardless of Lee's say in the matter, she saw Katjaa grieving alone over Duck's impending fate while Kenny was emotionally unavailable for her, she saw him get drunk and creepy, she was reduced to tears if he bragged about wanting to kill her friend Ben after they leave Crawford, and she was compelled to leave after it became clear that Kenny's plan to leave on the boat would mean never seeing her parents again.
At best, I figured she liked him because he was Lee's friend and the father of her friend, Duck. But it's been two years since Clem saw him, and he's virtually a stranger to her. I tried to play Clem's interactions with him as that of someone who, after the initial wave of nostalgia from meeting a friend of Lee's, was constantly wary and afraid of him because of his actions back when Lee was still alive.
And by the time he has a mental breakdown in Amid The Ruins, she'd have realized he'd gone even worse than before and would feel unsafe around him. That's the Clementine I know.
Difference is that the way Clem was written, it was almost completely impossible not to like her. She was ultimately a character almost anyo… morene could sympathize with. The Lee-Clem relationship can be excused because the vast majority already agreed with it, and said relationship was actually developed on screen, while the Kenny-Clem relationship was entirely based on the assumption that Clem liked Kenny even though they never interacted in season 1. In other words, their bond came out of nowhere, and was more built on the players feelings for Kenny, not Clem's.
And with unlike Clem in season 1, people have far more reason not to sympathize with Kenny. He's famous for being one of the most divisive characters in the game, yet Telltale was completely blind to the sizable portion of the fanbase that didn't like him.
Obviously is not the word I would use, Kenny did things that made some people like him, some people hate him and others empathise with him.
Yes, Arvo did shoot Clementine, but this doesn't excuse the fact that Kenny was practically bullying Arvo, if Kenny treated him nicer, whose to say that Arvo wouldn't have shot Clementine?
They had every right to make compelling arguments about why it's unsafe for Clementine to stick with Kenny. Bonnie and Mike became traitors BECAUSE of Kenny's harsh actions towards Arvo which practically lead to Clementine getting shot, as for Jane, she NEVER said she killed the baby, she even said that she didn't kill the baby, she was doing what she though was right, which is the same thing we as players do when influencing Clementine's choices.
Just because Jane lied about the baby doesn't mean Kenny was 'right all along', right about what exactly? Kenny himself even told Clementine that she made the right decision to shoot him, he obviously felt as though he was endangering Clementine more than protecting her, just because Jane lied doesn't mean she intended for Kenny to die, it was obvious from her expressions that she never expected such an event to conclude with such dire results.
Sticking with Kenny is one of the best possible choices ever, there are 5 endings in total, if you choose Kenny, Clementine and AJ are alive, if you choose to go with Jane, Clementine and AJ are alive, if you don't go with either, Clementine and AJ are alive, saying that Kenny is the 'best' choice is based on one's opinion.
Actually, the Episode seemed to be trying very obviously to get Clementine (and the players) to like Kenny in the long run.
Oh no, he's b… moreeating up Arvo! Oh wait, Arvo shot Clem, so Kenny was right to beat the shit out of him! Sorry for doubting you Ken-meister!
Wow, Jane, Bonnie and Mike are making some compelling arguments for why we shouldn't stick with Kenny. Oh wait, Bonnie and Mike are suddenly traitors and Jane pretended to kill a baby. So sorry for doubting you Kenneth! You're the man!
Oh god, I shot Kenny! Let's give him this super heart-wrenching and emotional death, and then immediately shit on Jane's character afterwards with the revelation that she lied about AJ! Oh, why did I choose to shoot Kenny!? He was right all along!
We've reached Wellington with Kenny! And he's sacrificing his spot in the community for Clem and AJ's safety. Oh thank you so much Kenny, clearly sticking with you was the best possible choice evar!
Could you try to explain why you disagree? I'm really curious what a Kenny fan has to say on the matter, because I'd hope that even the most devoted fans of Kenny would be able to see how poorly the Kenny/Clem relationship was developed when compared with Lee/Clem.
I see where you're coming from and I think you have some fair points, I just really do not share your opinion on the matter.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130809221333/walkingdead/images/f/f9/Kenny's_Family_Drawing.png
I think it's because she's the one who pulled the trigger. It all comes back to the foreshadowing flashback dream she has of Lee, she says she doesn't want to hurt anyone. So I'm guessing having to kill an old friend who's lost it is what brought the tears... I'd be pretty shattered too.
I don't blame Telltale for wanting to give Clem an emotional reaction for one of the last members of the old group, but I agree that the entire relationship with Kenny should have been a bit more variable depending on how you interacted with him.
But again, the same goes for the whole group. If I become especially invested in one character I want it to happen naturally, not because other characters like Sarah and Nick are shoved off to the side in the meantime.
The relationship basically wasn't variable at all for most of Season 2. The most glaring example is when Kenny apologizes for ranting at Clem, and Clem is given the option to tell him "You really hurt me" instead forgiving him... which prompts Kenny to apologize again and Clem forgives him indeterminately, with no input from the player.
So Clem can choose whether or not to forgive Nick or Bonnie, but she has no choice but to forgive Kenny? That's fair.
I don't blame Telltale for wanting to give Clem an emotional reaction for one of the last members of the old group, but I agree that the ent… moreire relationship with Kenny should have been a bit more variable depending on how you interacted with him.
But again, the same goes for the whole group. If I become especially invested in one character I want it to happen naturally, not because other characters like Sarah and Nick are shoved off to the side in the meantime.
To be fair, Kenny provoked Jane in the car first by telling her that she cares about no one and no one cares about her, which would've cut pretty deep since Jane clearly cared about her sister and Clem and Luke, and it's clear Luke cared about her too.
Blaming the victim for their own murder, wow that's shitty. You're an abuse apologizer. "You just make me so mad!" therefore you deserve to be hit and murdered. Jane didn't deserve to be murdered because she pissed Kenny off, or even because she lied. Kenny started that fight. Jane even tried to stop Kenny from fighting in the beginning. She flashed her knife and put it away, and then Kenny charged her again. No matter if you like Kenny or not, he'd straight up murder Jane, and Jane didn't deserve that.
No, it showed she cared only for herself. Kenny cared about Clem, but that moment wasn't about Clem. That moment was about AJ. People are… more allowed to have this thing called concern. it's the dang thing everyone complained about when Sarah die din front of ev...wait...no...a baby was born, looked like it might have been dead but wasn't, and thus they all had a bittersweet moment of celebration.
Kenny cared for the kids right up until the end, and it seems that's the case no matter what.
Jane was selfish and it got her killed. At no time did she ever stop fighting Kenny. She's trying to kill him because of her lie. Yes self defense...but the girl set the man off with a lie. If it was true then yes, I'd have sided with her but what she said before he came in...I knew it was a set up.
So no, screw the crazy bitch trying to set off Kenny. She's the real psycho.
Oh my god yes. That's the word, forced. Kenny played a huge role but played off as an asshole with my Lee and my Lee told him to fuck off at the end when he tried to interfere with me saving Clem, obviously tensions were high in the relationship with my Lee and Kenny. Lee's relationships with people are almost cloned to Clem's relationships with people so Clem would definitely not be buddy buddy with Kenny in my case. He was an incredibly dynamic character and played a huge role in season one, for Lee. But as you said, it doesn't show her being especially close to Kenny, no more than she would be with any group members. In my playthrough, the closest person to her besides Lee would've been Ben, not Kenny, the sometimes-alright asshole to Lee.
Clem canonically is closer with Kenny because she's known him since the beginning of the apocalypse, he is the last connection she has to her time with Lee.They care about one another for a multitude of reasons. I don't like Luke or Jane, but I can't go about claiming their relationship with Clem was forced just because I don't like the characters. I suppose your feelings about Kenny and Clem's relationship are similar to mine about Bigby and Snow's relationship in TWAU. I dislike Snow, but I can't go saying my Bigby doesn't care about Snow, just because I am not fond of her. For canonically, Bigby cares deeply about Snow, and there's no getting around that.(no matter how much I wish there was lol) It's the same with Kenny and Clem, they care a great deal about each other, and our personal opinions about a character isn't going to invalidate the relationships they have.
It isn't like she doesn't care about Omid, You can see on her face that she blames herself and feels horrible. Kenny I think is because he reminds her of Lee, Katjaa,Duck and the old group but it becomes a stronger bond during S2 now that they only have each other from S1
If you want to talk about forced relationships, then let's have a look at Clem and AJ. We never have any options to hate him or anything. It pisses me off because I don't really care about his character.
If you want to talk about forced relationships, then let's have a look at Clem and AJ. We never have any options to hate him or anything. It pisses me off because I don't really care about his character.
I mean, I'm not saying I hate the character, but I would rather not have to deal with it. Why couldn't Clem have just left it with somebody else like Jane or Kenny?
I do find the character to be very annoying however, and I wish for Clem to not interact with it because it's annoyance will draw walkers and risk Clem's life.
I personally liked Kenny (most of the time) but I agree with you op. Being forced to like him by the game was really unfair to people that didn't like him.
I couldn't agree more with this thread.
My Clementine was much closer to Luke than to Kenny. However she doesn't cry when he dies, however she cries like a baby when Kenny dies, even I disagreeing with him all the time and hating him.
Pretty much ALL of the characters - with a few isolated exceptions - apologize to Clem in some shape or form. Saying the player's sympathy was solely reserved for Kenny is just plain daffy, considering how much I identified with Nick and Luke. The fact there are people criticizing Kenny in this forum on a daily basis (not unlike how Mike, Bonnie and Jane always criticize him), indicates that Telltale gave the player as much reason to HATE Kenny as love him.
I agree 100% with you. Even when Ben freaked and left Clem among the walkers, Clementine still defended him and called him her friend and got upset that Kenny wanted to murder him.
Ugh I actually wish Ben would have been in season two instead of Kenny. I'm with Clem in liking Ben more than Kenny.
Oh my god yes. That's the word, forced. Kenny played a huge role but played off as an asshole with my Lee and my Lee told him to fuck off at… more the end when he tried to interfere with me saving Clem, obviously tensions were high in the relationship with my Lee and Kenny. Lee's relationships with people are almost cloned to Clem's relationships with people so Clem would definitely not be buddy buddy with Kenny in my case. He was an incredibly dynamic character and played a huge role in season one, for Lee. But as you said, it doesn't show her being especially close to Kenny, no more than she would be with any group members. In my playthrough, the closest person to her besides Lee would've been Ben, not Kenny, the sometimes-alright asshole to Lee.
I totally agree. I don't necessarily hate Kenny and in my first play through I was happy to see him alive at the Ski Lodge, but I didn't really enjoy how much the Clem/Kenny relationship was forced this season.
The weird thing is that regardless of how you treat Kenny throughout Season 2, he still loves you and other characters will continue to refer to you two as friends and close - which is not really true as they had pretty minimal interaction outside of this season.
At least in Season 1 your interactions actually shaped your relationships with characters! Though for a majority of the time I didn't want to side with Kenny the game kept positioning me in a way where I almost felt like I had to. So much for choice.
I'd say she was closest to Ben after Lee, and Kenny wanted Ben abandoned from day one. I have no idea how Kenny and Clem's good relationship can be canon to some when no matter what choice you made, Ben and Clem were super close and Kenny wanted Ben dead? Like he found stickers for her to put on her walkie talkie, someone tell me that poor boy didn't deserve better than a hole in his stomach and his last minutes with a man who bullied him for the majority of the game? Meanwhile that bully getting a magical resurrection and an honorable death? goddamn you telltale.
I agree 100% with you. Even when Ben freaked and left Clem among the walkers, Clementine still defended him and called him her friend and go… moret upset that Kenny wanted to murder him.
Ugh I actually wish Ben would have been in season two instead of Kenny. I'm with Clem in liking Ben more than Kenny.
But Lee even said, "I think you're her favorite Omid." To Omid so I don't know maybe Ben and Omid both stand on equal ground with their relationship with Clementine.
I'd say she was closest to Ben after Lee, and Kenny wanted Ben abandoned from day one. I have no idea how Kenny and Clem's good relationship… more can be canon to some when no matter what choice you made, Ben and Clem were super close and Kenny wanted Ben dead? Like he found stickers for her to put on her walkie talkie, someone tell me that poor boy didn't deserve better than a hole in his stomach and his last minutes with a man who bullied him for the majority of the game? Meanwhile that bully getting a magical resurrection and an honorable death? goddamn you telltale.
Probably. Ben and Omid are both good guys though. I bet Omid would've found her a cat sticker to add to that walkie talkie (if the walkie talkie hadn't had lead to the season's end that is).
But Lee even said, "I think you're her favorite Omid." To Omid so I don't know maybe Ben and Omid both stand on equal ground with their relationship with Clementine.
While I agree that Jane seems to have her own problems and possibly agenda, I don't think she's trying to brainwash you. I think she legitim… moreately cares about you and your well-being so she's trying to shed light on the fact that sometimes you may have to leave a group and you may be alone.
What she did, the setup/trap at the rest stop, was completely dumb, I agree. Jane let you know it was a setup. She told Kenny it was an accident and he just went off. In my playthrough I tried multiple times to break up the fights (both in the car and at the rest stop). The fact is that Kenny was insanely reckless with trying to avenge a baby's death when he had NO IDEA what happened. He was even violent towards Clementine during that fight which ultimately made me side with Jane. I don't agree with her plan but it was true, Kenny can't protect us and he's too unstable. It was hard deciding whether to shoot Kenny or [Look Away]. I had to shoo… [view original content]
Its Telltale. They're going to force you to do things and experience events that you can't change regardless of your choices. Like Lee approaching Clem's hat and getting bitten cardboard-trash zombie. Or Luke's demise. And so on.
You had to bond with him because you also had to make superficial choices between him and Luke, which was also annoying. Kenny was kind of an asshole to you if you disagreed with him on any choice you make.
Its kind of like how Clem has to care about Rebecca's baby, even though you hated Rebecca 'cause she was a bitch to Clem and a baby is a liability in the zombie apocalypse.
aw, im sorry you felt alienated by the clem-kenny thing. I can understand where your coming from, luckily for me though I had a super time , having loved Kenny's character in season one and practically cheering at my tv when he came back. When I decided to shoot Kenny it was such an emotional moment for me, and clems reaction amplified it perfectly.
I actually didn't play season 1 (watched a playthrough) so the fact that they didn't really bond then didn't bother me cause I sure as hell did.
It didn't make sense to me that Kenny's happiness would have been so dependant on Clem sitting with him, or why that wouldn't have been a natural decision for her anyway, and why either he or Mike would have got bent out of shape over a choice like that that a child would make.
Kenny singlehandedly tore apart one of the most capable and functional groups Clem has ever had.
Don't make me laugh. This group was fucked no matter what.
Luke was shot and became a liability (although I liked him for the first time in 205), Mike was shot, although it seemed to have been not so dangerous.
Bonnie is a useless wreck after Luke's death no matter what.
Arvo is not part of the group.
AJ is a baby that needs constant care.
And Jane is the worst. She was the one that manipulated Clem all the time and would have had no problem if anyone died or abandoned them. Not really a team spirit.
Now, I agree that the relationship between Kenny and Clem is taking a big role this Season. But it's not like people that don't like him had no scenes where he doesn't play a part.
And Clem liked Kenny in Season 1, why would she draw him if she hated him. This is non-determinant. In Season 2, there are options to disagree with him, but not to hate him. It's because Clem's 'basic' character, which isn't influenced by players, likes Kenny, or at least doesn't hate him.
I liked Kenny but I do feel that it was weird in season 2. Clem and Kenny act like long lost friends. I mean it's most likely because they are both from the first group and are happy to see eachother alive, But they didn't seem to intereact much in season 1. Though I'm sure Kenny cared for her.
Kenny was acutually not so close to Clem in S1. Carley told Lee to keep food for Clem, Kat cared about Clem from the very beginning, Lilly gave Clem headbands and got worried that someone stealing the supply would cause Clem out of medicine, Chuck taught Lee how to be a better mentor to her, and even Larry threatened Lee not to do anything bad to Clem. But Kenny... You have to care about his family or side with him to get him helping rescue Clem or to buy the shit ship ticket for her... And in S2E2, I feel that Kenny just took Clem as a replacement for his original famlily, along with Sarita. In the damned apocalypse to get back someone you knew before can make you feel close to him or her, but that doesn't mean real care. I think it takes time for Kenny to take Clem as Clem rather than a familar team member or replacement of his family.
As for Clem, in the first night with Kenny back she can say something really bad about him to the Cabin group. But it doesn't take long for "Not in Nottingham" to happen, and since then it's nature for everyone else to think "Clem and Kenny are close to each other". As you said above, they comfirm Clem of that unconsciously. You know, with people keeping talking about something, a Saint can be taken as a murder, a safe city can get a "tiger" in its center. So Clem may just forget what an asshole Kenny can be in S1. What's more, a dead man are usually a better man, for people are easier to remember the brighter side of a person if he or she is gone. Clem is gentle and tender inside, easy to sympathize, and she cherished the memory of Kenny along with his family members, who were really good to her. So she may just take "Kenny and I were close to together from the very beginning" as truth...
PS. Clem did cry over Omid's death, you can hear that. But TTGame doesn't bother to get tears in her face... It's shit that Clem hardly react to Sarah's death. And if she was saved once, it skipped so fast to "whether to forgive Jane for failing to save Sarah", which really annoyed me. Clem can refuse to take the appology from Nick, choose to help Pete by the river, and tell Walter to trust Nick just out of her promise to Pete that she will look after him. So it's ok if Clem doesn't cry over Nick in this situation. However I hope she can react more if they were close in the playthrough (accept Ncik's appology, go with him by the river and persuade him not to give up, etc). (Maybe TTG just don't like Nick..."Fuck, Fuck, Fuck...")
As for her tears for Kenny... I think if she chose to shoot him, it's not just for Kenny's death. It's also for her killing someone, and for the sense of "why it has to end like this... why I can't do anything to it". If Jane is killed she will also cry, and she can even shoot Kenny after that (though I think TTG is kinda kidding with this option. I choose it only to get a badass Clem). And when they are about to say goodbye at Wellington... er, give me some time to think it through.
True but she didn't stop at one she kept going and going knowing it will anger him.
I don't hate Jane but I somehow knew that she wasn't telling the truth or she probably did kill AJ.
To be fair, Kenny provoked Jane in the car first by telling her that she cares about no one and no one cares about her, which would've cut p… moreretty deep since Jane clearly cared about her sister and Clem and Luke, and it's clear Luke cared about her too.
Comments
Well a Kenny hater wouldn't get this ending as they would have chosen to either go with Jane or leave alone.
Yeah, well, Lilly regretted shooting Doug, yet no one cuts her any slack. I really can't forgive Kenny trying to murder someone for, from his point of view, accidentally getting AJ killed. What Jane did was really shitty too, but at least I'm certain she won't try to unjustly kill anyone in an overprotective rage. After all, she clearly felt bad about killing the Russian, and she sympathized with Mike and Bonnie when they left even though they got Clem shot.
I miss Christa
Thank you for understanding :P
I'd hope that even the most diehard Kenny fans could understand why Season 2 was very annoying for people who didn't like Kenny. Seriously Kenny fans, just try playing through the game pretending you don't like Kenny. It's not gonna be an enjoyable experience.
Kind of like the Lee-Clem relationship was forced on us... right?
Not necessarily a bad thing here.
Or Sarah, for that matter. Clementine doesn't seem to think once about that girl in No Going Back.
Difference is that the way Clem was written, it was almost completely impossible not to like her. She was ultimately a character almost anyone could sympathize with. The Lee-Clem relationship can be excused because the vast majority already agreed with it, and said relationship was actually developed on screen, while the Kenny-Clem relationship was entirely based on the assumption that Clem liked Kenny even though they never interacted in season 1. In other words, their bond came out of nowhere, and was more built on the players feelings for Kenny, not Clem's.
And with unlike Clem in season 1, people have far more reason not to sympathize with Kenny. He's famous for being one of the most divisive characters in the game, yet Telltale was completely blind to the sizable portion of the fanbase that didn't like him.
The problem is that Clem's relationship with Kenny was ill-defined in Season 1 - he was important to players because he was effectively Lee's adult companion, but Clementine herself never had much to do or say about Kenny. In fact, what we see of her reactions to him are unflattering - she was terrified when he crushed a man's skull in front of her regardless of Lee's say in the matter, she saw Katjaa grieving alone over Duck's impending fate while Kenny was emotionally unavailable for her, she saw him get drunk and creepy, she was reduced to tears if he bragged about wanting to kill her friend Ben after they leave Crawford, and she was compelled to leave after it became clear that Kenny's plan to leave on the boat would mean never seeing her parents again.
At best, I figured she liked him because he was Lee's friend and the father of her friend, Duck. But it's been two years since Clem saw him, and he's virtually a stranger to her. I tried to play Clem's interactions with him as that of someone who, after the initial wave of nostalgia from meeting a friend of Lee's, was constantly wary and afraid of him because of his actions back when Lee was still alive.
And by the time he has a mental breakdown in Amid The Ruins, she'd have realized he'd gone even worse than before and would feel unsafe around him. That's the Clementine I know.
I see where you're coming from and I think you have some fair points, I just really do not share your opinion on the matter.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130809221333/walkingdead/images/f/f9/Kenny's_Family_Drawing.png
Obviously is not the word I would use, Kenny did things that made some people like him, some people hate him and others empathise with him.
Yes, Arvo did shoot Clementine, but this doesn't excuse the fact that Kenny was practically bullying Arvo, if Kenny treated him nicer, whose to say that Arvo wouldn't have shot Clementine?
They had every right to make compelling arguments about why it's unsafe for Clementine to stick with Kenny. Bonnie and Mike became traitors BECAUSE of Kenny's harsh actions towards Arvo which practically lead to Clementine getting shot, as for Jane, she NEVER said she killed the baby, she even said that she didn't kill the baby, she was doing what she though was right, which is the same thing we as players do when influencing Clementine's choices.
Just because Jane lied about the baby doesn't mean Kenny was 'right all along', right about what exactly? Kenny himself even told Clementine that she made the right decision to shoot him, he obviously felt as though he was endangering Clementine more than protecting her, just because Jane lied doesn't mean she intended for Kenny to die, it was obvious from her expressions that she never expected such an event to conclude with such dire results.
Sticking with Kenny is one of the best possible choices ever, there are 5 endings in total, if you choose Kenny, Clementine and AJ are alive, if you choose to go with Jane, Clementine and AJ are alive, if you don't go with either, Clementine and AJ are alive, saying that Kenny is the 'best' choice is based on one's opinion.
Could you try to explain why you disagree? I'm really curious what a Kenny fan has to say on the matter, because I'd hope that even the most devoted fans of Kenny would be able to see how poorly the Kenny/Clem relationship was developed when compared with Lee/Clem.
I think it's because she's the one who pulled the trigger. It all comes back to the foreshadowing flashback dream she has of Lee, she says she doesn't want to hurt anyone. So I'm guessing having to kill an old friend who's lost it is what brought the tears... I'd be pretty shattered too.
I don't blame Telltale for wanting to give Clem an emotional reaction for one of the last members of the old group, but I agree that the entire relationship with Kenny should have been a bit more variable depending on how you interacted with him.
But again, the same goes for the whole group. If I become especially invested in one character I want it to happen naturally, not because other characters like Sarah and Nick are shoved off to the side in the meantime.
The relationship basically wasn't variable at all for most of Season 2. The most glaring example is when Kenny apologizes for ranting at Clem, and Clem is given the option to tell him "You really hurt me" instead forgiving him... which prompts Kenny to apologize again and Clem forgives him indeterminately, with no input from the player.
So Clem can choose whether or not to forgive Nick or Bonnie, but she has no choice but to forgive Kenny? That's fair.
To be fair, Kenny provoked Jane in the car first by telling her that she cares about no one and no one cares about her, which would've cut pretty deep since Jane clearly cared about her sister and Clem and Luke, and it's clear Luke cared about her too.
Blaming the victim for their own murder, wow that's shitty. You're an abuse apologizer. "You just make me so mad!" therefore you deserve to be hit and murdered. Jane didn't deserve to be murdered because she pissed Kenny off, or even because she lied. Kenny started that fight. Jane even tried to stop Kenny from fighting in the beginning. She flashed her knife and put it away, and then Kenny charged her again. No matter if you like Kenny or not, he'd straight up murder Jane, and Jane didn't deserve that.
Oh my god yes. That's the word, forced. Kenny played a huge role but played off as an asshole with my Lee and my Lee told him to fuck off at the end when he tried to interfere with me saving Clem, obviously tensions were high in the relationship with my Lee and Kenny. Lee's relationships with people are almost cloned to Clem's relationships with people so Clem would definitely not be buddy buddy with Kenny in my case. He was an incredibly dynamic character and played a huge role in season one, for Lee. But as you said, it doesn't show her being especially close to Kenny, no more than she would be with any group members. In my playthrough, the closest person to her besides Lee would've been Ben, not Kenny, the sometimes-alright asshole to Lee.
Clem canonically is closer with Kenny because she's known him since the beginning of the apocalypse, he is the last connection she has to her time with Lee.They care about one another for a multitude of reasons. I don't like Luke or Jane, but I can't go about claiming their relationship with Clem was forced just because I don't like the characters. I suppose your feelings about Kenny and Clem's relationship are similar to mine about Bigby and Snow's relationship in TWAU. I dislike Snow, but I can't go saying my Bigby doesn't care about Snow, just because I am not fond of her. For canonically, Bigby cares deeply about Snow, and there's no getting around that.(no matter how much I wish there was lol) It's the same with Kenny and Clem, they care a great deal about each other, and our personal opinions about a character isn't going to invalidate the relationships they have.
It isn't like she doesn't care about Omid, You can see on her face that she blames herself and feels horrible. Kenny I think is because he reminds her of Lee, Katjaa,Duck and the old group but it becomes a stronger bond during S2 now that they only have each other from S1
If you want to talk about forced relationships, then let's have a look at Clem and AJ. We never have any options to hate him or anything. It pisses me off because I don't really care about his character.
Who would hate a baby?
I mean, I'm not saying I hate the character, but I would rather not have to deal with it. Why couldn't Clem have just left it with somebody else like Jane or Kenny?
I do find the character to be very annoying however, and I wish for Clem to not interact with it because it's annoyance will draw walkers and risk Clem's life.
Obviously you missed out on that scene where he chews Clem up over Sarita's death.
I prefered Luke much more and TTG killed him with a poor death.
They lost all my respect.
I couldn't agree more with this thread.
My Clementine was much closer to Luke than to Kenny. However she doesn't cry when he dies, however she cries like a baby when Kenny dies, even I disagreeing with him all the time and hating him.
Uh...guys?
Pretty much ALL of the characters - with a few isolated exceptions - apologize to Clem in some shape or form. Saying the player's sympathy was solely reserved for Kenny is just plain daffy, considering how much I identified with Nick and Luke. The fact there are people criticizing Kenny in this forum on a daily basis (not unlike how Mike, Bonnie and Jane always criticize him), indicates that Telltale gave the player as much reason to HATE Kenny as love him.
I agree 100% with you. Even when Ben freaked and left Clem among the walkers, Clementine still defended him and called him her friend and got upset that Kenny wanted to murder him.
Ugh I actually wish Ben would have been in season two instead of Kenny. I'm with Clem in liking Ben more than Kenny.
I totally agree. I don't necessarily hate Kenny and in my first play through I was happy to see him alive at the Ski Lodge, but I didn't really enjoy how much the Clem/Kenny relationship was forced this season.
The weird thing is that regardless of how you treat Kenny throughout Season 2, he still loves you and other characters will continue to refer to you two as friends and close - which is not really true as they had pretty minimal interaction outside of this season.
At least in Season 1 your interactions actually shaped your relationships with characters! Though for a majority of the time I didn't want to side with Kenny the game kept positioning me in a way where I almost felt like I had to. So much for choice.
In my opinion, Luke cared more.
I'd say she was closest to Ben after Lee, and Kenny wanted Ben abandoned from day one. I have no idea how Kenny and Clem's good relationship can be canon to some when no matter what choice you made, Ben and Clem were super close and Kenny wanted Ben dead? Like he found stickers for her to put on her walkie talkie, someone tell me that poor boy didn't deserve better than a hole in his stomach and his last minutes with a man who bullied him for the majority of the game? Meanwhile that bully getting a magical resurrection and an honorable death? goddamn you telltale.
Also jane because everythng you say to her, she takes as a joke meaning you cant make hr an enemy
But Lee even said, "I think you're her favorite Omid." To Omid so I don't know maybe Ben and Omid both stand on equal ground with their relationship with Clementine.
Probably. Ben and Omid are both good guys though. I bet Omid would've found her a cat sticker to add to that walkie talkie (if the walkie talkie hadn't had lead to the season's end that is).
Exactly what I thought lol
Its Telltale. They're going to force you to do things and experience events that you can't change regardless of your choices. Like Lee approaching Clem's hat and getting bitten cardboard-trash zombie. Or Luke's demise. And so on.
You had to bond with him because you also had to make superficial choices between him and Luke, which was also annoying. Kenny was kind of an asshole to you if you disagreed with him on any choice you make.
Its kind of like how Clem has to care about Rebecca's baby, even though you hated Rebecca 'cause she was a bitch to Clem and a baby is a liability in the zombie apocalypse.
aw, im sorry you felt alienated by the clem-kenny thing. I can understand where your coming from, luckily for me though I had a super time , having loved Kenny's character in season one and practically cheering at my tv when he came back. When I decided to shoot Kenny it was such an emotional moment for me, and clems reaction amplified it perfectly.
I actually didn't play season 1 (watched a playthrough) so the fact that they didn't really bond then didn't bother me cause I sure as hell did.
It didn't make sense to me that Kenny's happiness would have been so dependant on Clem sitting with him, or why that wouldn't have been a natural decision for her anyway, and why either he or Mike would have got bent out of shape over a choice like that that a child would make.
Don't make me laugh. This group was fucked no matter what.
Luke was shot and became a liability (although I liked him for the first time in 205), Mike was shot, although it seemed to have been not so dangerous.
Bonnie is a useless wreck after Luke's death no matter what.
Arvo is not part of the group.
AJ is a baby that needs constant care.
And Jane is the worst. She was the one that manipulated Clem all the time and would have had no problem if anyone died or abandoned them. Not really a team spirit.
Now, I agree that the relationship between Kenny and Clem is taking a big role this Season. But it's not like people that don't like him had no scenes where he doesn't play a part.
And Clem liked Kenny in Season 1, why would she draw him if she hated him. This is non-determinant. In Season 2, there are options to disagree with him, but not to hate him. It's because Clem's 'basic' character, which isn't influenced by players, likes Kenny, or at least doesn't hate him.
I liked Kenny but I do feel that it was weird in season 2. Clem and Kenny act like long lost friends. I mean it's most likely because they are both from the first group and are happy to see eachother alive, But they didn't seem to intereact much in season 1. Though I'm sure Kenny cared for her.
Kenny was acutually not so close to Clem in S1. Carley told Lee to keep food for Clem, Kat cared about Clem from the very beginning, Lilly gave Clem headbands and got worried that someone stealing the supply would cause Clem out of medicine, Chuck taught Lee how to be a better mentor to her, and even Larry threatened Lee not to do anything bad to Clem. But Kenny... You have to care about his family or side with him to get him helping rescue Clem or to buy the shit ship ticket for her... And in S2E2, I feel that Kenny just took Clem as a replacement for his original famlily, along with Sarita. In the damned apocalypse to get back someone you knew before can make you feel close to him or her, but that doesn't mean real care. I think it takes time for Kenny to take Clem as Clem rather than a familar team member or replacement of his family.
As for Clem, in the first night with Kenny back she can say something really bad about him to the Cabin group. But it doesn't take long for "Not in Nottingham" to happen, and since then it's nature for everyone else to think "Clem and Kenny are close to each other". As you said above, they comfirm Clem of that unconsciously. You know, with people keeping talking about something, a Saint can be taken as a murder, a safe city can get a "tiger" in its center. So Clem may just forget what an asshole Kenny can be in S1. What's more, a dead man are usually a better man, for people are easier to remember the brighter side of a person if he or she is gone. Clem is gentle and tender inside, easy to sympathize, and she cherished the memory of Kenny along with his family members, who were really good to her. So she may just take "Kenny and I were close to together from the very beginning" as truth...
PS. Clem did cry over Omid's death, you can hear that. But TTGame doesn't bother to get tears in her face... It's shit that Clem hardly react to Sarah's death. And if she was saved once, it skipped so fast to "whether to forgive Jane for failing to save Sarah", which really annoyed me. Clem can refuse to take the appology from Nick, choose to help Pete by the river, and tell Walter to trust Nick just out of her promise to Pete that she will look after him. So it's ok if Clem doesn't cry over Nick in this situation. However I hope she can react more if they were close in the playthrough (accept Ncik's appology, go with him by the river and persuade him not to give up, etc). (Maybe TTG just don't like Nick..."Fuck, Fuck, Fuck...")
As for her tears for Kenny... I think if she chose to shoot him, it's not just for Kenny's death. It's also for her killing someone, and for the sense of "why it has to end like this... why I can't do anything to it". If Jane is killed she will also cry, and she can even shoot Kenny after that (though I think TTG is kinda kidding with this option. I choose it only to get a badass Clem). And when they are about to say goodbye at Wellington... er, give me some time to think it through.
True but she didn't stop at one she kept going and going knowing it will anger him.
I don't hate Jane but I somehow knew that she wasn't telling the truth or she probably did kill AJ.