That dialog is determinant, my Bonnie never wanted to leave Clem, she said something like "we can't leave her like this", mike forces Bonnie to leave her because Kenny and Jane were coming, Bonnie was crying... I think that is determinant what she says if you try to save Luke or cover him....
Yeah, and she just said after Arvo shot Clementine (just leave her there) and a few times insults her about Luke..I mean hello Bonnie? Where were you when Walter got killed????
Man, I have to argue that so often, it almost scares me... How is THAT a justification for murder? He could just have not listen, go away, throw her out of the car, make her leave, like pulling a gun at her or punch her until she leaves (with Jane, it most likely wouldn't have taken long), but murder her? How is it that so much people on this Forum think you can justify murder in any way? Killing someone in Self-Defense, either against one self or against someone you love, yes, but murdering someone because he/she insults you or MAY have done something bad, but maybe not? Especially without even giving him/her one second to explain what happened? No, just no. In my book, that behavior is not better than that of Carver or any random Bandit.
And yes, he DOES hurt Clem. First, you can hurt people not just physically, but mentally too. In my playthrough he does it by constantly screaming and threatening people and having Clem always protect people from him. My Clem had to protect Arvo from him, and being the one person to calm Kenny down before he rages again, and having everyone else of the group tell her that, was very hard and hurtful for her, as it would be for all little girs. Second, in my playthrough, he does punch Clem. Yes, it was accidental, while my Clem tried to save Arvo from Kenny (who by this point we didn't know would/could betray the Group, and the beating, or mauling, he got from Kenny was unjustified), but still. My Clem never was a Kenny Fanboy, She often wasn't on Kenny's side, and he made sure to let her know that. So I don't know how different your playthrough was, but in mine he, the Mustache-Berserker, did hurt Clem very often.
AND, you really should play again or look it up on YouTube, if Clem kills him, he ADMITS he became a Monster, and it was right for Clem to shoot him. If the Man himself says it, what further proof do you need?
Kenny would kill Jane, but its because she's been an asshole to him and pushing his buttons the whole episode. He wouldn't hurt Clem. The most harm he did to her was yelling at her and pushing her out of the way.
Well in my play through Clem was mostly neutral to Kenny but agreed with him on certain topics and disagreed with him on certain topics. I never considered Clem to be mentally hurt by Kenny except maybe when he was yelling at her. But even then Clem has the option to say it's okay. I'm not trying to say what Kenny does is morally correct especially concerning the Jane situation. But I do understand why he went apeshit and all that. But I think what Jane did wasn't morally correct either. She pisses off Kenny who everyone knows is already on edge, and she blatantly lies to Clem and puts herself in danger on purpose without real rhyme or reason. She wants to show Clem the monster he really is? What!? He literally lost everyone he cared about in under a week with no time at all to mourn. Then he got betrayed, then Jane pushed him to the edge talking about Sarita not trusting Kenny and talking about him behind his back. He was already at the edge and when Jane "killed" Alvin Jr. All his emotions he had left bottled up had exploded. Jane could've easily came back with the baby but she brought her (determinant) death on herself. If anything to me it shows Kenny is willing to do anything for Clem and Alvin Jr. Just like Lee. Lee can be just as much of an asshole and kill people out of spite like Kenny. Remember the St. johns? They didn't NEED to die, but Lee out of protection and love for Clem (determinately) kills them! I think Kenny was on edge, not turning into a maniac like Jane thought. Ii mean look at Kenny's endings! He seems a lot nicer and less insane than before doesn't he? It's because he finally got some time to mourn and process and accept what happened. He just couldn't take all that stress in that single week. Kenny is much more a leader than a follower and gets frustrated if you don't agree with him. But that's because he has very strong opinions and when he thinks something is right, he does it. Like it or not Kenny gets shit done.
Man, I have to argue that so often, it almost scares me... How is THAT a justification for murder? He could just have not listen, go away, t… morehrow her out of the car, make her leave, like pulling a gun at her or punch her until she leaves (with Jane, it most likely wouldn't have taken long), but murder her? How is it that so much people on this Forum think you can justify murder in any way? Killing someone in Self-Defense, either against one self or against someone you love, yes, but murdering someone because he/she insults you or MAY have done something bad, but maybe not? Especially without even giving him/her one second to explain what happened? No, just no. In my book, that behavior is not better than that of Carver or any random Bandit.
And yes, he DOES hurt Clem. First, you can hurt people not just physically, but mentally too. In my playthrough he does it by constantly screaming and threatening people and having Clem always protect pe… [view original content]
To be honest, this wouldn't happen if they listened to Kenny. Kenny knew it was a trapped which led to Luke getting killed coincidentally and having Bonnie and Mike leave the group. Basically, they're in the same situation but with less people.
I also agree about Arvo. I don't think he's a bad guy he was just upset at the loss of his sister (ala Lily with Larry in S1 ep 2). He is seen trying to revive her and as far as he's concerned she may still be alive. He never actually see's that she's turned as Kenny takes him hostage and they have their backs to her when she reanimates. However that doesn't excuse what he did. Neither Carley or Clem were in danger of turning nor were they a threat to the group. I did not forgive Lily for shooting Carley and I will not forgive Arvo for shooting Clem!
I was just sad about what happened. I liked Bonnie, I was as nice to her, and as Nice as I could be to arvo because I truly thought he didn'… moret deserved to be treated like that. So when Luke died and Bonnie, mike and arvo wanted to leave I asked to go with them. I happily gave mike the gun, then arvo shot me....
I can't say I'm surprised, arvo held Clem responsible for his sisters death. No, what hurt was Bonnie and mike leaving me, after all I'd done for them, after I'd made it clear that i didn't want to be with Kenny, after I said I'd come with them, after I'd meekly surrendered. The only difference is that in my game Bonnie didn't want to leave Clem, it was mike who made them leave.
Bonnie, you broke my poor Clem's heart : (
I know, sure they weren't thinking, but that shows another sense of disloyalty. Every man for themselves according to them. if it was me I'd stay and tell Kenny to help. Obviously Kenny wouldn't attack you while you're trying to help the little girl he loves
That dialog is determinant, my Bonnie never wanted to leave Clem, she said something like "we can't leave her like this", mike forces Bonnie… more to leave her because Kenny and Jane were coming, Bonnie was crying... I think that is determinant what she says if you try to save Luke or cover him....
My Clem too was mostly neutral, sometimes agreeing with Kenny, sometimes with Luke, sometimes with Jane (most of the times with no one, though). Yes, I also understand why he went crazy. I did too! I admit my first thought was: "Oh damn, Jane, what did you do?!" . But that's it, a thought. She didn't "kill" him. She may have, but she also may have not. Kenny didn't know what happened, didn't even give her a chance, a second to explain and immediately started to try to murder her. I say it again, and it pains me that I have to do that so often, but "may"s and "maybe"s are no justification for murder. And if someone can't keep their bottled up anger in check, and if he needs to kill people to release the anger, that makes him very dangerous and, in my book, very bad. And someone who only feels better after murdering someone is definitively insane. But I guess it's okay for you that Kenny murdered a person, as long as he feels better afterwards, huh? Don't wanna meet you in a dark alley after you got some bad news...
And yes, Lee could be an asshole, but that's not true for everyone. You make it sound like he is that all the times. Believe me, my Lee would have done the same as my Clem did, shoot Kenny. And most player who had killed the Johns (those were the Cannibals, right? Too long ago I played it), absolutely regretted their decision after they realized Clem was watching.
And Kenny a leader? God beware, you already said the reasons why that would be terrible. it's not a good trait for a leader if he can't accept different opinions. That's how Carver lead his group, remember? Everyone agrees that's bad, but with Kenny, "our" beloved Mustache-Berserker, it's okay, right?
Well in my play through Clem was mostly neutral to Kenny but agreed with him on certain topics and disagreed with him on certain topics. I … morenever considered Clem to be mentally hurt by Kenny except maybe when he was yelling at her. But even then Clem has the option to say it's okay. I'm not trying to say what Kenny does is morally correct especially concerning the Jane situation. But I do understand why he went apeshit and all that. But I think what Jane did wasn't morally correct either. She pisses off Kenny who everyone knows is already on edge, and she blatantly lies to Clem and puts herself in danger on purpose without real rhyme or reason. She wants to show Clem the monster he really is? What!? He literally lost everyone he cared about in under a week with no time at all to mourn. Then he got betrayed, then Jane pushed him to the edge talking about Sarita not trusting Kenny and talking about him behind his back. He was already … [view original content]
I understand that, what I don't understand is trying to take ALL of the group's supplies before she left.
"You're taking everything we have!" - Clementine
That part is inexcusable to me and just extremely selfish. Wouldn't hurt to leave some behind. She was even taking the car, after all. Leave at least one bag of supplies ,jeez. I wouldn't have much trouble with them leaving if they weren't trying to take EVERYTHING.
They were going to leave AJ,Clem,Kenny and Jane bare in the middle of a snowstorm in a roofless house. That's selfishness to the extreme.
My Clem too was mostly neutral, sometimes agreeing with Kenny, sometimes with Luke, sometimes with Jane (most of the times with no one, thou… moregh). Yes, I also understand why he went crazy. I did too! I admit my first thought was: "Oh damn, Jane, what did you do?!" . But that's it, a thought. She didn't "kill" him. She may have, but she also may have not. Kenny didn't know what happened, didn't even give her a chance, a second to explain and immediately started to try to murder her. I say it again, and it pains me that I have to do that so often, but "may"s and "maybe"s are no justification for murder. And if someone can't keep their bottled up anger in check, and if he needs to kill people to release the anger, that makes him very dangerous and, in my book, very bad. And someone who only feels better after murdering someone is definitively insane. But I guess it's okay for you that Kenny murdered a person, as long as he feels better afterwards… [view original content]
I'm sorry but I still think the bonnie part was "lazy" writing and just put in there for adding another drama to deal with. In my playthrough bonnie had remorse for the things that happened at the lodge. She made it clear several times. Even said it again during the conversation on the stairs.
Having said that I can understand that she is afraid of Kenny but her stealing all the supplies and leaving a newborn and clem behind after everything that happened, basically sentencing the rest of the group to death isn't in any way understandable.
Comments
That dialog is determinant, my Bonnie never wanted to leave Clem, she said something like "we can't leave her like this", mike forces Bonnie to leave her because Kenny and Jane were coming, Bonnie was crying... I think that is determinant what she says if you try to save Luke or cover him....
Man, I have to argue that so often, it almost scares me... How is THAT a justification for murder? He could just have not listen, go away, throw her out of the car, make her leave, like pulling a gun at her or punch her until she leaves (with Jane, it most likely wouldn't have taken long), but murder her? How is it that so much people on this Forum think you can justify murder in any way? Killing someone in Self-Defense, either against one self or against someone you love, yes, but murdering someone because he/she insults you or MAY have done something bad, but maybe not? Especially without even giving him/her one second to explain what happened? No, just no. In my book, that behavior is not better than that of Carver or any random Bandit.
And yes, he DOES hurt Clem. First, you can hurt people not just physically, but mentally too. In my playthrough he does it by constantly screaming and threatening people and having Clem always protect people from him. My Clem had to protect Arvo from him, and being the one person to calm Kenny down before he rages again, and having everyone else of the group tell her that, was very hard and hurtful for her, as it would be for all little girs. Second, in my playthrough, he does punch Clem. Yes, it was accidental, while my Clem tried to save Arvo from Kenny (who by this point we didn't know would/could betray the Group, and the beating, or mauling, he got from Kenny was unjustified), but still. My Clem never was a Kenny Fanboy, She often wasn't on Kenny's side, and he made sure to let her know that. So I don't know how different your playthrough was, but in mine he, the Mustache-Berserker, did hurt Clem very often.
AND, you really should play again or look it up on YouTube, if Clem kills him, he ADMITS he became a Monster, and it was right for Clem to shoot him. If the Man himself says it, what further proof do you need?
Well in my play through Clem was mostly neutral to Kenny but agreed with him on certain topics and disagreed with him on certain topics. I never considered Clem to be mentally hurt by Kenny except maybe when he was yelling at her. But even then Clem has the option to say it's okay. I'm not trying to say what Kenny does is morally correct especially concerning the Jane situation. But I do understand why he went apeshit and all that. But I think what Jane did wasn't morally correct either. She pisses off Kenny who everyone knows is already on edge, and she blatantly lies to Clem and puts herself in danger on purpose without real rhyme or reason. She wants to show Clem the monster he really is? What!? He literally lost everyone he cared about in under a week with no time at all to mourn. Then he got betrayed, then Jane pushed him to the edge talking about Sarita not trusting Kenny and talking about him behind his back. He was already at the edge and when Jane "killed" Alvin Jr. All his emotions he had left bottled up had exploded. Jane could've easily came back with the baby but she brought her (determinant) death on herself. If anything to me it shows Kenny is willing to do anything for Clem and Alvin Jr. Just like Lee. Lee can be just as much of an asshole and kill people out of spite like Kenny. Remember the St. johns? They didn't NEED to die, but Lee out of protection and love for Clem (determinately) kills them! I think Kenny was on edge, not turning into a maniac like Jane thought. Ii mean look at Kenny's endings! He seems a lot nicer and less insane than before doesn't he? It's because he finally got some time to mourn and process and accept what happened. He just couldn't take all that stress in that single week. Kenny is much more a leader than a follower and gets frustrated if you don't agree with him. But that's because he has very strong opinions and when he thinks something is right, he does it. Like it or not Kenny gets shit done.
How was it a trap? House was legit and there was food.
Looks like you and I were in the same boat.
I also agree about Arvo. I don't think he's a bad guy he was just upset at the loss of his sister (ala Lily with Larry in S1 ep 2). He is seen trying to revive her and as far as he's concerned she may still be alive. He never actually see's that she's turned as Kenny takes him hostage and they have their backs to her when she reanimates. However that doesn't excuse what he did. Neither Carley or Clem were in danger of turning nor were they a threat to the group. I did not forgive Lily for shooting Carley and I will not forgive Arvo for shooting Clem!
I know, sure they weren't thinking, but that shows another sense of disloyalty. Every man for themselves according to them. if it was me I'd stay and tell Kenny to help. Obviously Kenny wouldn't attack you while you're trying to help the little girl he loves
Yeah, you're right I guess...but I just really wanted for Clem to stay loyal and friend to Kenny.
My Clem too was mostly neutral, sometimes agreeing with Kenny, sometimes with Luke, sometimes with Jane (most of the times with no one, though). Yes, I also understand why he went crazy. I did too! I admit my first thought was: "Oh damn, Jane, what did you do?!" . But that's it, a thought. She didn't "kill" him. She may have, but she also may have not. Kenny didn't know what happened, didn't even give her a chance, a second to explain and immediately started to try to murder her. I say it again, and it pains me that I have to do that so often, but "may"s and "maybe"s are no justification for murder. And if someone can't keep their bottled up anger in check, and if he needs to kill people to release the anger, that makes him very dangerous and, in my book, very bad. And someone who only feels better after murdering someone is definitively insane. But I guess it's okay for you that Kenny murdered a person, as long as he feels better afterwards, huh? Don't wanna meet you in a dark alley after you got some bad news...
And yes, Lee could be an asshole, but that's not true for everyone. You make it sound like he is that all the times. Believe me, my Lee would have done the same as my Clem did, shoot Kenny. And most player who had killed the Johns (those were the Cannibals, right? Too long ago I played it), absolutely regretted their decision after they realized Clem was watching.
And Kenny a leader? God beware, you already said the reasons why that would be terrible. it's not a good trait for a leader if he can't accept different opinions. That's how Carver lead his group, remember? Everyone agrees that's bad, but with Kenny, "our" beloved Mustache-Berserker, it's okay, right?
I understand that, what I don't understand is trying to take ALL of the group's supplies before she left.
"You're taking everything we have!" - Clementine
That part is inexcusable to me and just extremely selfish. Wouldn't hurt to leave some behind. She was even taking the car, after all. Leave at least one bag of supplies ,jeez. I wouldn't have much trouble with them leaving if they weren't trying to take EVERYTHING.
They were going to leave AJ,Clem,Kenny and Jane bare in the middle of a snowstorm in a roofless house. That's selfishness to the extreme.
I'm sick of all the fighting can we just agree that Clem is better than both and get on with our lives lol
This is why i shot mike. So happy i did that now
I'm sorry but I still think the bonnie part was "lazy" writing and just put in there for adding another drama to deal with. In my playthrough bonnie had remorse for the things that happened at the lodge. She made it clear several times. Even said it again during the conversation on the stairs.
Having said that I can understand that she is afraid of Kenny but her stealing all the supplies and leaving a newborn and clem behind after everything that happened, basically sentencing the rest of the group to death isn't in any way understandable.