I suppose I can't speak for Lee, but if I were him and I met Luke, I wouldn't at all be pleased with the twerp.
I'm sorry if my words are too harsh for this thread, but Luke (as well as the other survivors) was just so ignorant and hateful during his introduction that he isn't at all redeemable in my eyes (and he shouldn't be in your's either).
This opinion mainly stems from my anger that Luke displayed condescending and even abusive behavior when he discover Clementine's 'walker bite'.
Scared or not, he has no excuse for the actions he made that day.
Whether it be him intentionally dropping Clementine and unapologetically refusing to assist her the rest of the way, or allowing his group to lock a bleeding little girl in a shed for an entire night, the dude's got serious mental issues.
In essence, he commits both child neglect and child abuse, and never once apologizes for it (let alone seems concerned for Clem's safety).
Seriously, if you came across a soon-to-be-zombified child out in the woods, would you respond to them as aggressively as he did?
Would you even consider them a threat?
Of course not.
Any decently-moral human being would give the kid the treatment they need and hope for the best.
If it's too late and the poor girl's already dying, I personally would do my best to keep them comfortable and happy until their time comes.
Luke doesn't even hesitate to act like a frickin' punk when the bite is originally found, he just dives headfirst into douche-dom.
Anyway, his demeanor gets even worse and more unpredictable when he goes totally bipolar and switches sides, being totally in favor of Clem suddenly.
When the team is discussing what to do with Clem, he's 'advocating' for her, I guess.
Well, whatever... I mean he's still a dick but at least he's supporting Clem now, right?
Nope.
He doesn't once apologize for his previously awful conduct and never brings any worthwhile points to the table to 'not kill Clem.'
It's as if he isn't even trying.
How about instead of providing arguments like "Why we shouldn't kill this girl." you instead ask
"HOLY SHIT. WHAT IS YOUR GUYS' PROBLEM. LIKE SERIOUSLY YOU'RE LITERALLY SAYING YOU WANT TO KILL THIS GIRL? ARE YOU FOR REAL RIGHT NOW?!"
If I was actually concerned about the kid's safety, that's how I would sound if all my allies were advocating for child murder.
I'd genuinely be freaked out and disgusted by my friends if they legitimately thought this to be a good solution.
This would be a normal, caring reaction to this serious of a predicament.
And surprise, surprise; not one character attempts to get this point across.
So instead of being helpful, Luke (as well as Pete and Alvin, the other two characters that were apparently on Clem's side) just throws half-hearted defenses out there and just hopes they stick.
It really makes him sound indifferent to the issue.
As if he doesn't actually care what happens to Clementine.
This lack of regard is further proven when the doctor finally makes the choice to leave Clementine in the shed, and Luke doesn't so much as lift a finger in opposition.
A perfectly reasonable reaction to this reckless decision would be "DUDE. WOAH, ARE YOU SHITTING ME? THIS GIRL NEEDS MEDICAL ATTENTION RIGHT NOW, AND YOU'RE JUST GOING TO LEAVE HER INSIDE A COLD SHED FOR AN ENTIRE NIGHT. ARE YOU SICK IN THE HEAD, DOC? I'M NOT HELPING YOU MURDER THIS GIRL"
Does Luke even make the attempt to reason with the guy? No, of course he doesn't. He's frickin' nuts, I've already proven that.
Instead of doing something useful he twiddles his thumbs, leads Clementine to her shed and excretes a half-assed shitty apology when the girl presses him with questions.
He doesn't even seem to care (or is too stupid to realize) that keeping her in this confined space makes her EXTREMELY vulnerable to walkers (as she later has to experience) and would probably worsen the infection she already has.
To conclude, these are morally reprehensible behaviors and it annoys me that both Telltale and TWD fans gloss over these glaring character flaws like they never happened. This was bad/illogical writing at it's finest.
Luke and the rest of his crew are obviously sociopathic, ignorant and dangerous towards anyone they come across (as demonstrated later on in the season).
Like, they're legitimately evil in nature.
But yah getting back to the question, if I were Lee I'd beat his ass up (as well as Rebecca's, Nick's, and all the other idiots of the group).
I don't tolerate that sort of thing.
That's all in episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people.
Pete: Goes out like a hero, buys Clem to escape and head to the cabin
Nick: Distracts the zombies so Clem could escape and head back to the cabin
Alvin: He stayed behind at Carver's and Clem can convince him to give her some supplies for her arm
Carlos: He does show some concern for Clem, he tells Luke that she shouldn't cross the bridge with because she's a little girl and trusts her fully to take care of Sarah when he's not there
Rebecca: She might've hated Clem as first, but she grew to like her and tells Clem she's a good kid and is happy that Clem will help protect her child
Sarah: She gets Clem supplies for her arm and thinks Clem is best friend
Luke: He shows the most concern for Clem out of the cabin group, he defends her a tells his group that she isn't bit, he pulls Clem to the ground when Nicks shoots Matthew so she doesn't accidently get shot, he'll try to catch Clem if she falls while climbing the ladder, doesn't want Clem to be the one who turns on the PA system, if Clem tells Luke something is her fault, he's always say no and tell it isn't her fault, and tells Clem not to go over to the ice when he falls in it
I suppose I can't speak for Lee, but if I were him and I met Luke, I wouldn't at all be pleased with the twerp.
I'm sorry if my words are… more too harsh for this thread, but Luke (as well as the other survivors) was just so ignorant and hateful during his introduction that he isn't at all redeemable in my eyes (and he shouldn't be in your's either).
This opinion mainly stems from my anger that Luke displayed condescending and even abusive behavior when he discover Clementine's 'walker bite'.
Scared or not, he has no excuse for the actions he made that day.
Whether it be him intentionally dropping Clementine and unapologetically refusing to assist her the rest of the way, or allowing his group to lock a bleeding little girl in a shed for an entire night, the dude's got serious mental issues.
In essence, he commits both child neglect and child abuse, and never once apologizes for it (let alone seems concerned for Clem's safety).
Seri… [view original content]
Seriously guys, how come everyone just lets go unnoticed the fact that Clem didn't pass out at the same spot at which she woke up? We did catch a glimpse of Luke rushing to help her when he noticed she was about to fall to the ground. That made it kinda evident, at least to me, that he did carry her to a safer place (despite him saying earlier he wouldn't carry her anymore after seeing her bite). He didn't, however, bring her inside the cabin because the group definitely wouldn't approve of that, especially Carlos.
Besides, even though Luke is, deep within his heart, a nice guy, he can get frantic sometimes: this is heavily implied by his quite frequent failures in the game. (Nick mentions his business plan was a failure as well). Don't forget Nick's mom had gotten killed because he and Nick thought they were able to help a bitten person and both of them were still haunted by that guilt, so he acted on impulse when he found out another stranger which he was bringing to his group was bitten.
He definitely cares about the cabin group and didn't have much reason to care about Clementine other than her being a child (and bear in mind: many children CAN be dangerous in the Walking Dead universe), so he reckoned putting his group in jeopardy just to help another person with a bite wasn't worth the risk of it being, despite what Clem stated, a walker bite.
So yeah, he was unnecessarily harsh towards her after finding the bite. Nevertheless, the way I see it he made up for it by having a change of heart and deciding to help Clem in multiple ways. He:
-Gave Clem the benefit of the doubt and took her (even if just by dragging her body) to a safer spot after she passed out;
-Talked to Carlos himself (only he, Sarah and Carlos were inside the Cabin by the time you wake up) and probably also had to convince Carlos to even take a look at the bite;
-Defended her against the entire group and scolded them for almost shooting Clem and for treating a scared child the way they did (which was much worse than anything Luke did up to this point, ok?). Clem probably felt like the entire world was against her in that situation: Everyone she knew, especially Christa, was gone and all these strangers were harassing her instead of helping. Luke was the only one who was clearly on her side. Even Pete had mixed feelings (remember when he suggested cutting off her arm in cold blood?);
-Convinced the group to release her from the shed: There was still no sunlight at all by the time they come to check on Clementine, which means something made them at least consider giving her a chance, and by listening to the kitchen conversation, it becomes obvious Luke was the one who made them feel ashamed for suggesting and voting for locking Clem in the shed and not even try to help her. In fact, it's still night time by the time Carlos is talking to Clem about the bite, and Luke and Nick were the only ones giving a shit about whether or not Clem was going to be fine;
-Gave Clementine food: In fact, he offered her food even before Carlos proclaimed the bite wasn't a walker's. ('Hey, you hungry? sad face');
-And finally, he's the only one from the cabin to show interest in knowing Clementine's background and how she's feeling.
These are the main reasons why I loved Luke and his relationship with (my) Clementine; this is why I felt his character was so poorly written in Amid the Ruins and partially why I felt so devastated when he died.
I suppose I can't speak for Lee, but if I were him and I met Luke, I wouldn't at all be pleased with the twerp.
I'm sorry if my words are… more too harsh for this thread, but Luke (as well as the other survivors) was just so ignorant and hateful during his introduction that he isn't at all redeemable in my eyes (and he shouldn't be in your's either).
This opinion mainly stems from my anger that Luke displayed condescending and even abusive behavior when he discover Clementine's 'walker bite'.
Scared or not, he has no excuse for the actions he made that day.
Whether it be him intentionally dropping Clementine and unapologetically refusing to assist her the rest of the way, or allowing his group to lock a bleeding little girl in a shed for an entire night, the dude's got serious mental issues.
In essence, he commits both child neglect and child abuse, and never once apologizes for it (let alone seems concerned for Clem's safety).
Seri… [view original content]
"That's all in Episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people."
This sentence embodies everything that frustrates me about Luke/Rebecca/Carlos/etc sympathizers. To combat this argument, I'd like to provide a quote of my own.
"One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness"
Not sure where the quote comes from (Pirates of the Carribean, I think), but I'll be damned if I don't think it applies to this debate.
I don't understand the argument you're trying to present, really.
'Oh they only tried to kill that girl once, but they aren't going to try to do it again so that makes up for it.'
This is basically what you're saying.
It was their decision to act as rash and harmful as they did. Just because it's 'in the past' and the hard part's over, doesn't mean it should just be accepted and forgotten. Time shouldn't be a factor when it comes to judging others based on their actions. If someone does a despicable act even once in their lifetime, and they don't seek justice upon themselves, they're a despicable person for life.
All that aside, what I don't think you understand is that Clementine could have easily died because of these people's rash, unjustified decisions. If she had died canonically there could be no moving forward for these guys. No one would come to their defense. These people would have been seen as murderers (which they are) and the entire fanbase would give them a hatred far worse than anything Kenny's ever had to deal with.
The thing is though, whether Clem actually died or not is irrelevant to how you should judge these characters. The point is that they recklessly put her in a position where it was very likely she could have been killed or seriously injured.
This ties in with the (real-life) idiotic idea that we can charge someone with attempted-murder for a lesser sentence.
In this example, a person that attempts to murder someone should be tried for murder, even if they weren't successful. It shouldn't be the result you charge someone with, but rather the intent; and I can tell you straight-up that Luke and his buddies would be charged with some serious manslaughter charges if this were an actual court case.
Moving forward, and sort of getting back to your original point; I don't care how nice someone was before this incident happened, or how friendly they are towards you after the fact, this behavior is simply unforgivable.
The fact that Luke feels it's in good taste to joke about such a serious situation (even when he directly took part in it) is troubling.
"Ha ha. Remember that time we left you outside to die, even though you really needed our help? Oh boy, those were some good times."
That's basically what he's saying. Pretty despicable, right?
Your immediate forgiveness towards these people undermines the suffering Clementine had to go through to get basic medical attention (and care) that she should have gotten in the first place.
All of this being said, let's get to your little list.
Pete:
Like I said, just because he does one good thing doesn't justify or provide enough forgiveness for what he did.
I'll give him props for committing such a selfless act, but he was still a dick.
Let's not forget that Clem wouldn't have an arm if the crew had gone through with Pete's idiotic suggestion.
Nick:
I like how you leave out all the dickish things he did and just chose one small insignificant action instead. In comparison to the shit he's pulled, this minute point is drowning in Nick's own karma.
For example, you forgot to mention when he almost shot Clem, the time he irrationally and hurtfully blames her for _____'s death, and last but not least, when he shoots that one dude for no reason.
Nick is like the new-Kenny basically. Selfish, stubborn, unpredictable and he won't hesitate to cut your throat if it helps out his group in the smallest of ways.
The dude's a dangerous prick and even Telltale seems to know that, so it astounds me that you're actually defending him right now.
Alvin:
He shouldn't have to be convinced to do the right thing.
Clementine literally has to plead for him to get her the things she needs.
He should have helped her on his own accord, not because she begged him too.
If he's scared his group will throw him out in the cold, at least he saved a little girl's life.
Who cares what a bunch of psychopaths think about you? As long as you did the right thing, that should be all that matters.
Carlos:
Don’t get me even started on this guy. The supposed ‘Doctor’ that can’t even tell an animal bite from human one? The ‘Doctor’ that ethically finds it okay to leave a wound left untreated overnight? The 'Doctor that gives YOU the fuckin' lecture when are you are forced to treat your own wounds because he refused to help you.
No, don't even start man. This guy's by far the worst of these people. There's no way in the nine circles of Hell I'd forgive this man for what he did in any circumstance.
Rebecca:
Sarah:
Luke:
I'm tired for now.
I've spent a good long hour writing this thing and I'm already pooped.
I'm gonna take a bit of a break and finish Sarah, Luke and Rebecca later.
Feel free to refute this comment (even in it's current state) if you wish.
That's all in episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people.
Pete: Goes out like a hero, buys Cl… moreem to escape and head to the cabin
Nick: Distracts the zombies so Clem could escape and head back to the cabin
Alvin: He stayed behind at Carver's and Clem can convince him to give her some supplies for her arm
Carlos: He does show some concern for Clem, he tells Luke that she shouldn't cross the bridge with because she's a little girl and trusts her fully to take care of Sarah when he's not there
Rebecca: She might've hated Clem as first, but she grew to like her and tells Clem she's a good kid and is happy that Clem will help protect her child
Sarah: She gets Clem supplies for her arm and thinks Clem is best friend
Luke: He shows the most concern for Clem out of the cabin group, he defends her a tells his group that she isn't bit, he pulls Clem to the ground when Nicks shoots Matthew… [view original content]
Honestly, I think you're just holding a grudge for a mistake they made, they feel sorry for what they did, if you look at their facial expressions when they open up the shed and see the dead zombie with Clem, they feel horrible, and they repay by letting her be apart of the group. They could've just tell Clem to leave after her arm was healed, but they didn't.
"That's all in Episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people."
This sentence embodies everything… more that frustrates me about Luke/Rebecca/Carlos/etc sympathizers. To combat this argument, I'd like to provide a quote of my own.
"One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness"
Not sure where the quote comes from (Pirates of the Carribean, I think), but I'll be damned if I don't think it applies to this debate.
I don't understand the argument you're trying to present, really.
'Oh they only tried to kill that girl once, but they aren't going to try to do it again so that makes up for it.'
This is basically what you're saying.
It was their decision to act as rash and harmful as they did. Just because it's 'in the past' and the hard part's over, doesn't mean it should just be accepted and forgotten. Time shouldn't be a factor when it comes to judging others based on t… [view original content]
I think Luke will be good friend with my Lee. They both hold morals in very high value. However I think Lee may be unhappy with Luke once accidently leaving Clem in danger (I know Luke doesn't mean to, he just get short attetion time)....
Clem: I see some lights... Luke?
The cabin group run into a confliction with the ski lodge group. Luke reaches there the moment Lee and Kenny notice each other.
I think it's bad writing to have the cabin group's attitude change so fast. But if we ignore the writing and just talk about what happened, I still think it's forgivable.
They have helped a bitten people for once. It makes them lose a group memeber and almost all get killed. And when Clem comes to the group, nobody gets any clue about whether she's lying or not. Luke and Pete have already take risk to bring her to the cabin, let alone Pete lost his sister last time they helped someone. As for "murdering a little girl", just like what Chuck said in S1E3, you're no longer a little girl at that time. You're just bitten or not bitten, being a threat to the group or not a threat, lying or nor lying.
Luke is young and sanguineous and easy to change his attitude, mood, attetion, etc. He gets panic and throws Clem to the ground. But I think it's not fully on purpose. It's just out of instinct: you just throw away what you think is a danger to your life. But once he calms down, he's still the one who holds Clem and takes her to his group. Pete's suggestion of amputation is horrible to someone who's NOT bitten, but it can save someone who IS bitten. His suggestion just shows that he's still not sure whether Clem's lying, and bitten or not he's willing to save Clem's life. As for Alvin he gets a family to protect. If he's alone he will be more than willing to help Clem. But with a pregnant wife he has to considerate saving medicine for the coming baby.
As for leaving Clem in the shed, during the meeting Carlos says that Clem may get infected and die even if it's not a walker's bite. At this point Luke and Pete raise the point that then they should let her out. It makes them sound like idiot but it shows that they don't know Clem could still die without a walker bite before that point. If they know it at the beginning of this shit they won't leave her there without any treatment.
"That's all in Episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people."
This sentence embodies everything… more that frustrates me about Luke/Rebecca/Carlos/etc sympathizers. To combat this argument, I'd like to provide a quote of my own.
"One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness"
Not sure where the quote comes from (Pirates of the Carribean, I think), but I'll be damned if I don't think it applies to this debate.
I don't understand the argument you're trying to present, really.
'Oh they only tried to kill that girl once, but they aren't going to try to do it again so that makes up for it.'
This is basically what you're saying.
It was their decision to act as rash and harmful as they did. Just because it's 'in the past' and the hard part's over, doesn't mean it should just be accepted and forgotten. Time shouldn't be a factor when it comes to judging others based on t… [view original content]
I agree with most of your opinion, but not the one about Pete. His suggestion of amputation is horrible to someone who's NOT bitten, but it can save someone who IS bitten. It just shows that he's still not sure about whether Clem's lying, and bitten or not he's willing to save Clem's life.
Seriously guys, how come everyone just lets go unnoticed the fact that Clem didn't pass out at the same spot at which she woke up? We did ca… moretch a glimpse of Luke rushing to help her when he noticed she was about to fall to the ground. That made it kinda evident, at least to me, that he did carry her to a safer place (despite him saying earlier he wouldn't carry her anymore after seeing her bite). He didn't, however, bring her inside the cabin because the group definitely wouldn't approve of that, especially Carlos.
Besides, even though Luke is, deep within his heart, a nice guy, he can get frantic sometimes: this is heavily implied by his quite frequent failures in the game. (Nick mentions his business plan was a failure as well). Don't forget Nick's mom had gotten killed because he and Nick thought they were able to help a bitten person and both of them were still haunted by that guilt, so he acted on impulse when he found out another str… [view original content]
"They have helped a bitten people for once. It makes them lose a group memeber and almost all get killed."
And this justifies them treating another human-being like garbage? Bitten or not, I hope people would be much more hospitable to those who are injured and need medical attention. It's selfish to only think of yourself and the 'danger' you face when this person is going to slowly grow sick and writhe in pain before they actually die from their bite. The danger these people are worried about, this person already had to deal with.
Now it's just a matter of them waiting for their own death. Even if Clementine was bitten, it's still wrong to not treat her wound and go on to stuff her in a shed where she's easily accessible to walkers. That would just result in an even worse death than she's experiencing. And even if she survived, her already infected wound would be in even worse shape by morning.
Great plan there, doc.
Class act.
"And when Clem comes to the group, nobody gets any clue about whether she's lying or not."
First of all, Clem never came to the group. She was taken there by Lucas and Peter. She had no say in going or not, it seems.
Anyway, they had nothing to prove she was telling the truth? What about her frickin' bite, man? Just look at it! It totally isn't a human bite, it definitely is a dog bite, and her alibi isn't even all that far-fetched. The only reason the group's dumb doctor didn't identify it properly was because of the plot and it's bad writing. That is all.
Clementine's bite was proof enough of her 'innocence'.
(As if being bitten is something to be ashamed of).
"Luke and Pete have already taken a risk to bring her to the cabin,"
Not really.
Just let her take a nap on your sofa for a bit and have someone watch her. If you want to be extra cautious, I feel it'd be reasonable to (comfortably) tie one of her arms to something, just to make sure nothing happens, but even then she's a little girl. If you're absolutely 100% careful, she can't do much to hurt you.
"As for "murdering a little girl", just like what Chuck said in S1E3, you're no longer a little girl at that time. You're just bitten or not bitten, being a threat to the group or not a threat, lying or nor lying."
That's an incredibly evil way of thinking. I don't care if it's a quote from Chuck or not, that's just awful.
Yah, let's forget everything about who this person was, their wants and desires. Their emotions.
Hell, let's forget that they're still fuckingalive. They've been bitten, so that automatically makes them sub-human garbage, amiright? It's not like they won't feel betrayed when you scrutinize and threaten them for a condition they can't help having.
All that, on top of the fact that they know they're going to die a slow and painful death if they don't get proper assistance.
And not that I want this to be a lasting point, as I feel people of all ages should be treated with hospitality, but this group is especially cold-hearted and evil when they didn't help a kid that was in this situation. Not only would it be easier for them to handle in terms of safety, but children are literally the embodiment of innocence.
Finding a small girl on her own after two years of an apocalypse; it can be assumed she's gone through some rough shit. Do these people not have any empathy? Why not make her last hour on Earth be the most warm and loving experience she's ever had? I just don't understand why any sane, moral person would turn even a child down in this predicament.
"Luke is young and sanguineous and easy to change his attitude, mood, attetion, etc."
Yo, I'm younger than Luke and I'd never do something this batshit nuts.
Age doesn't excuse reprehensible deeds.
"He gets panic and throws Clem to the ground. But I think it's not fully on purpose. It's just out of instinct: you just throw away what you think is a danger to your life. "
There's a difference between throwing something away, and someone away.
Clementine was a someone, and if Luke is just able to neglectfully discard and harm a fellow human-being (let alone a child) for selfish reasons, he's making my shitlist brah.
He didn't even apologize for it. Even Peter felt it more necessary to further question a bleeding girl then scold Lucas for his abusive behavior.
"But once he calms down, he's still the one who holds Clem and takes her to his group."
Only after she faints. Luke made it perfectly clear he wasn't going to carry her the rest of the way, and would've forced her to walk on her own.
(What an abusive prick. Seriously, how can you defend this guy?)
"Pete's suggestion of amputation is horrible to someone who's NOT bitten, but it can save someone who IS bitten."
Except Clem wasn't bitten and it seemed like he believed her.
"Ah've got a good bullshit detector, Luke."
Remember that?
The fact he just recklessly throws this suggestion out there without and form of segway like "She said she wasn't bitten, and I believe her, but if she was I've heard that amputation is a possible solution."
How he originally worded it made it sound like he was going against Clem, and could have encouraged the others to do the same. At least with this new phrasing, it establishes that he is in favor of Clementine, but if things go wrong there are other options to choose from.
"and bitten or not he's willing to save Clem's life."
If he's wrong (which he was) he just wrongfully offered to amputate a girl's arm over a scratch.
"If he's alone he will be more than willing to help Clem. But with a pregnant wife he has to considerate saving medicine for the coming baby."
Once again, another instance of you encouraging selfish decision-making. Hoarding medicine for your bitch-wife and not-even-born-yet baby when there's a girl that needs medical attention now? Clementine didn't even need more than a teaspoon of peroxide and a bandage. She didn't even need stitches really, so the idea that Alvin and the group had no medicine to spare is far-fetched.
"At this point Luke and Pete raise the point that then they should let her out."
If it was their plan to get Clem out of there, maybe it would have been a good idea to communicate that to Clem?
"Hey, give us a minute. Me and Pete will get you out of here in no-time. Sorry our group members are acting like buffoons right now."
Even if they were advocating for Clementine, they still left her in the shed alone. Why not have one of them stay behind with Clementine in the shed, make sure she's alright, and have the other try to negotiate with the crew to let her back in?
Another thing, why'd it take them so long to discuss the issue anyway? By the time everyone's debating about it, it's night time. If Petis and Lucca really wanted to get Clementine out of there, would they not try to continue the conversation ASAP?
And finally, why is this something only the group can discuss? Why can't Pete-roleum and Luke-ajin demand that Clementine take part in the discussion? Sense the argument's about her, why can't she have a say? It'd give her a chance to re-tell her alibi so everyone can understand, and would probably really help her case.
I think it's bad writing to have the cabin group's attitude change so fast. But if we ignore the writing and just talk about what happened, … moreI still think it's forgivable.
They have helped a bitten people for once. It makes them lose a group memeber and almost all get killed. And when Clem comes to the group, nobody gets any clue about whether she's lying or not. Luke and Pete have already take risk to bring her to the cabin, let alone Pete lost his sister last time they helped someone. As for "murdering a little girl", just like what Chuck said in S1E3, you're no longer a little girl at that time. You're just bitten or not bitten, being a threat to the group or not a threat, lying or nor lying.
Luke is young and sanguineous and easy to change his attitude, mood, attetion, etc. He gets panic and throws Clem to the ground. But I think it's not fully on purpose. It's just out of instinct: you just throw away what you think is a danger to y… [view original content]
Could you please not seperate all the sentences one by one? They get into one point together. I've already given some of my points and don't want to repeat it again. Here's something new.
As for treating Clem as sub-human garbage, I wonder if you know how people treated patients who got lepra or diseases like that in old days. And lepra won't kill you at once.
And as for leaving Clem alone, I want to say that except for the Great chance that she would die of infection, it's safe there. The walker comes in because Clem breaks the corner of the wall.
And there's an old Chinese saying that once you were bitten by a snake, you would be afraid of ropes for ten years.
PS. I'm actually happy to meet people like you who hold morality in such a high level. But I don't count so much on the average level of humanity. In my mind most of time humanity is just a piece of shit painted gold. Humans don't do better than other animals. Actually worse. We're the only kinds of creatures who frequently start wars, killing each other on a large scale. Maybe that's why I forgive the cabin group so easily.
PSS. I must admit I misquote Chuck's words. They has definately different meaning. I actually knew that while typing but I just got it wrong.
"They have helped a bitten people for once. It makes them lose a group memeber and almost all get killed."
And this justifies them t… morereating another human-being like garbage? Bitten or not, I hope people would be much more hospitable to those who are injured and need medical attention. It's selfish to only think of yourself and the 'danger' you face when this person is going to slowly grow sick and writhe in pain before they actually die from their bite. The danger these people are worried about, this person already had to deal with.
Now it's just a matter of them waiting for their own death. Even if Clementine was bitten, it's still wrong to not treat her wound and go on to stuff her in a shed where she's easily accessible to walkers. That would just result in an even worse death than she's experiencing. And even if she survived, her already infected wound would be in even worse shape by morning.
Great plan there, doc.
Class … [view original content]
"Could you please not seperate all the sentences one by one? They get into one point together."
I'LL FORMAT MY SENTENCES THE WAY I WANT, BOI
Unless my way of typing makes my comment illegible, I don't think it really matters.
That being said, I do see where you're coming from. This thread's way of spacing things out looks a lot less neat then it would on other sites. So, I guess I'll tone it down.
"I've already given some of my points and don't want to repeat it again."
It isn't really repeating yourself if you're simply adding onto your original point. If we are at a disagreement, feel free to propose a counter-argument. It would be a shame if we dropped the previous discussion without at least understanding each other's position, in my opinion at least. And it's not like you would be reiterating anything. I provided new points for you to refute, so there's at least something 'new' you could bring to the table.
"As for treating Clem as sub-human garbage, I wonder if you know how people treated patients who got lepra or diseases like that in old days. And lepra won't kill you at once."
I'm very much aware of the cruel things that were done to lepers back in the day and trust me, I ain't happy about it.
"And as for leaving Clem alone, I want to say that except for the Great chance that she would die of infection, it's safe there. The walker comes in because Clem breaks the corner of the wall."
Thank you for agreeing with me about the risk of infection part, but I don't quite understand why you think the shed would be safe? Imagine if a crowd of walkers just gathered around the shed and just started applying their strength to it. The walls would collapse and Clementine would seriously be screwed. Even if she survived the night, the crew would have to fight through a ton of zombies to save the poor girl (if they felt like it).
"And there's an old Chinese saying that once you were bitten by a snake, you would be afraid of ropes for ten years."
lolwut
"PS. I'm actually happy to meet people like you who hold morality in such a high level. But I don't count so much on the average level of humanity."
Thanks. I appreciate it. Yah, there are a lot of things I'm frustrated with society about. I won't go into my political opinions as of right now, but there's a lot of screwed up stuff out there.
"We're the only kinds of creatures who frequently start wars, killing each other on a large scale. Maybe that's why I forgive the cabin group so easily."
I personally can't understand that way of thinking. The group committed reprehensible deeds, therefore I see them as reprehensible people. It just seems like everyone in this fandom has their standards so low for the morals these characters are supposed to have, and that's why they're able to sympathize with them. I personally find it an injustice to Clementine to be so forgiving. Telltale could have cut the forced drama and just introduced these guys the same way characters in the first season were introduced. It's just disappointing that this season could have been so much better and people still applaud it.
"PSS. I must admit I misquote Chuck's words. They has definately different meaning. I actually knew that while typing but I just got it wrong."
It's all good, man. If you would like to rephrase what you meant feel free to do so.
...[facepalm]
Could you please not seperate all the sentences one by one? They get into one point together. I've already given some of my… more points and don't want to repeat it again. Here's something new.
As for treating Clem as sub-human garbage, I wonder if you know how people treated patients who got lepra or diseases like that in old days. And lepra won't kill you at once.
And as for leaving Clem alone, I want to say that except for the Great chance that she would die of infection, it's safe there. The walker comes in because Clem breaks the corner of the wall.
And there's an old Chinese saying that once you were bitten by a snake, you would be afraid of ropes for ten years.
PS. I'm actually happy to meet people like you who hold morality in such a high level. But I don't count so much on the average level of humanity. In my mind most of time humanity is just a piece of shit painted gold. Humans don't do better than other anim… [view original content]
My Lee would have liked Luke. They had the same views on most things and Lee would have appreciated anybody who cared about and looked after Clementine.
If you played Lee to be good and true, I think he and Luke would have gotten along quite well. I can see Luke looking up to Lee as a role model of sorts, and Lee trying to pass on some of his wisdom down to him. I think their relationship would be akin to Luke and Pete's relationship to each other.
If you played the "Asshole" Lee route, I think their relationship would be similar to Luke's relationship to Kenny. Lots of arguing and disagreeing, but ultimately some begrudging teamwork in order to get things done.
Well alot of your claims are quite bullshit, to be honest, Pete was never a dick to Clem, amputating her arm would definitely have hurt but it could have potentially saved her life, he didn't really know if she was really bitten or not and he believed her when she claimed she wasn't bit. Nick made a mistake, but at least he apologized to Clem like a man instead of pouting about it and acting like he did nothing wrong like Kenny, Carlos's stupidity is the result of bad writing, but he didn't seem like a bad person, just someone who was protecting the ones he cared about. The cabin group are not saints, and I appreciated that, they weren't 100% good nor 100% evil in episode 1, just paranoid folks who were looking out for each other. clearly though, it seems like folks have to be 100% good people to be okay in your book, which is quite narrow minded.
"They have helped a bitten people for once. It makes them lose a group memeber and almost all get killed."
And this justifies them t… morereating another human-being like garbage? Bitten or not, I hope people would be much more hospitable to those who are injured and need medical attention. It's selfish to only think of yourself and the 'danger' you face when this person is going to slowly grow sick and writhe in pain before they actually die from their bite. The danger these people are worried about, this person already had to deal with.
Now it's just a matter of them waiting for their own death. Even if Clementine was bitten, it's still wrong to not treat her wound and go on to stuff her in a shed where she's easily accessible to walkers. That would just result in an even worse death than she's experiencing. And even if she survived, her already infected wound would be in even worse shape by morning.
Great plan there, doc.
Class … [view original content]
I can't tell if you're responding to me or not. If you aren't, I apologize for responding.
If you are, here's my rebuttal.
"Pete was never a dick to Clem,"
He allowed Luke to carelessly drop Clementine onto the ground. After that he pestered Clem about her bite when she was severely bleeding and clearly losing consciousness. When Luke decided he wouldn't help her the rest of the way, Pete did not offer to help either. I could go on for longer but I think I've proven my point.
"amputating her arm would definitely have hurt but it could have potentially saved her life,"
Amputating her arm would've hurt?! xD
No shit, how did you guess? I never could've figured that one out.
Understatement of the frickin' century, dude. Not only are you going to lose a lot of blood (as well as an entire limb), it completely hinders your ability to survive. You have to rely on other people to take care of you, and that is a decision only Clem should have made. I doubt the group would've given her a say in the matter if they actually chose to go through with it.
Also, Clem wasn't bitten, rendering amputation to be pointless. How do you not understand that?
"Nick made a mistake, but at least he apologized to Clem like a man instead of pouting about it and acting like he did nothing wrong like Kenny,"
Apologies don't automatically make everything better.
And besides, his 'mistakes' weren't mistakes. He actively made the decision to want kill Clem. He actively wanted her to be stuffed in that small shed. Hell, if the bullet hit Clem, he wouldn't even be able to apologize. If you put someone's life in danger and only then apologize, it's already too late.
"Carlos's stupidity is the result of bad writing, but he didn't seem like a bad person"
He scolded Clementine for seeking out the proper care she needed when he's the one that refused to treat her in the first place. You can 'protect the people you care about' and still be a civil human being. It's not hard.
"The cabin group are not saints,"
I'm not saying they have to be (although it would give me a good reason to care for them). I just want them to be decent human beings. That's all really.
"they weren't 100% good nor 100% evil in episode 1"
Nah, they're pretty evil. They could have handled the situation better.
They didn't.
I'd appreciate if characters have to deal with an issue as serious as walker bites and their victims, they would be hospitable and kind-hearted towards the people they have to take care of.
"clearly though, it seems like folks have to be 100% good people to be okay in your book, which is quite narrow minded."
Nice strawman.
Like I said, not asking for perfect characters. Just asking for nice, non-sociopathic ones.
Anyway I find it disturbing that this group committed very serious child neglect and abuse and that doesn't even effect your opinion of them. These actions are just 'mistakes' to you apparently. This isn't an issue of whether or not these characters are 'perfect' or not. It's a matter of criticizing their questionable moral standards.
Well alot of your claims are quite bullshit, to be honest, Pete was never a dick to Clem, amputating her arm would definitely have hurt but … moreit could have potentially saved her life, he didn't really know if she was really bitten or not and he believed her when she claimed she wasn't bit. Nick made a mistake, but at least he apologized to Clem like a man instead of pouting about it and acting like he did nothing wrong like Kenny, Carlos's stupidity is the result of bad writing, but he didn't seem like a bad person, just someone who was protecting the ones he cared about. The cabin group are not saints, and I appreciated that, they weren't 100% good nor 100% evil in episode 1, just paranoid folks who were looking out for each other. clearly though, it seems like folks have to be 100% good people to be okay in your book, which is quite narrow minded.
With regards your comments about Nick almost killing Clemintine; it seemed more like he was being pressured into shooting her, which is what he says to Rebecca if the player picks an option in which Clemintine tries to speak to the Cabin group. My point regarding Nick being pressured into shooting Clemintine can be emphasised if the player remains silent as Rebecca attempts to take the gun off Nick.
Another thing to take into consideration when thinking about the entire Cabin Group is that it has just escaped a camp run by a maniacal dictator-like figure who shows no remorse for others and thus the group were worried that Clemintine might be a scout for Carver, who is mentioned frequently throughout the episode, for example during the group meeting in the kitchen and when everybody is standing over Clemintine as she wakes up. To bring up Nick again, if the player chooses to run, he fires what I think is a warning shot to possibly stop her from running back to Howes.
I can't tell if you're responding to me or not. If you aren't, I apologize for responding.
If you are, here's my rebuttal.
"Pete wa… mores never a dick to Clem,"
He allowed Luke to carelessly drop Clementine onto the ground. After that he pestered Clem about her bite when she was severely bleeding and clearly losing consciousness. When Luke decided he wouldn't help her the rest of the way, Pete did not offer to help either. I could go on for longer but I think I've proven my point.
"amputating her arm would definitely have hurt but it could have potentially saved her life,"
Amputating her arm would've hurt?! xD
No shit, how did you guess? I never could've figured that one out.
Understatement of the frickin' century, dude. Not only are you going to lose a lot of blood (as well as an entire limb), it completely hinders your ability to survive. You have to rely on other people to take care of you, and that is a dec… [view original content]
Pete had no real control over whether or not Luke dropped her or not, that was a split second action, and honestly you're really overreacting when it comes to Pete's remarks toward Clementine about the bite, bite victims are risky and frankly you can't really tell if their telling the truth or not, Pete gave her the benefit of the doubt in the end, and yes Clem wasn't bitten, WE knew that, but the Cabin group and Pete didn't know that for sure. Nick was paranoid considering he just took care of a bite victim and it was his mother, I could totally understand where he was coming from, clearly you didn't. No, you totally want the cabin group to be saints, why else are you complaining and whining that they weren't 100% nice to a stranger, especially when its two years in the apocalypse where children can be potentially used to get into groups and lead to sabotage, saying that they're evil is extremely narrow minded, and stupid, and no I'm not entirely defending the shed, that was dumb, but it was a contrived scenario to give Clem and the player something to do. The cabin group are not evil, nor are they saints, yes their actions are morally questionable, but you can't seriously label small actions like Luke panicking and accidentally dropping Clementine to then suddenly call that person "evil", that's just petty and stupid on your part. Hell, some of the actions Lee can make in the first season are morally questionable , but by in large you can still make him into a good person who has to do the hard thing from time to time.
I can't tell if you're responding to me or not. If you aren't, I apologize for responding.
If you are, here's my rebuttal.
"Pete wa… mores never a dick to Clem,"
He allowed Luke to carelessly drop Clementine onto the ground. After that he pestered Clem about her bite when she was severely bleeding and clearly losing consciousness. When Luke decided he wouldn't help her the rest of the way, Pete did not offer to help either. I could go on for longer but I think I've proven my point.
"amputating her arm would definitely have hurt but it could have potentially saved her life,"
Amputating her arm would've hurt?! xD
No shit, how did you guess? I never could've figured that one out.
Understatement of the frickin' century, dude. Not only are you going to lose a lot of blood (as well as an entire limb), it completely hinders your ability to survive. You have to rely on other people to take care of you, and that is a dec… [view original content]
I agree with most of your opinion, but not the one about Pete. His suggestion of amputation is horrible to someone who's NOT bitten, but it … morecan save someone who IS bitten. It just shows that he's still not sure about whether Clem's lying, and bitten or not he's willing to save Clem's life.
Comments
You have a thing for that song.XD
I love it, and fitted because I cheered on when Carver was beaten to death.
I suppose I can't speak for Lee, but if I were him and I met Luke, I wouldn't at all be pleased with the twerp.
I'm sorry if my words are too harsh for this thread, but Luke (as well as the other survivors) was just so ignorant and hateful during his introduction that he isn't at all redeemable in my eyes (and he shouldn't be in your's either).
This opinion mainly stems from my anger that Luke displayed condescending and even abusive behavior when he discover Clementine's 'walker bite'.
Scared or not, he has no excuse for the actions he made that day.
Whether it be him intentionally dropping Clementine and unapologetically refusing to assist her the rest of the way, or allowing his group to lock a bleeding little girl in a shed for an entire night, the dude's got serious mental issues.
In essence, he commits both child neglect and child abuse, and never once apologizes for it (let alone seems concerned for Clem's safety).
Seriously, if you came across a soon-to-be-zombified child out in the woods, would you respond to them as aggressively as he did?
Would you even consider them a threat?
Of course not.
Any decently-moral human being would give the kid the treatment they need and hope for the best.
If it's too late and the poor girl's already dying, I personally would do my best to keep them comfortable and happy until their time comes.
Luke doesn't even hesitate to act like a frickin' punk when the bite is originally found, he just dives headfirst into douche-dom.
Anyway, his demeanor gets even worse and more unpredictable when he goes totally bipolar and switches sides, being totally in favor of Clem suddenly.
When the team is discussing what to do with Clem, he's 'advocating' for her, I guess.
Well, whatever... I mean he's still a dick but at least he's supporting Clem now, right?
Nope.
He doesn't once apologize for his previously awful conduct and never brings any worthwhile points to the table to 'not kill Clem.'
It's as if he isn't even trying.
How about instead of providing arguments like "Why we shouldn't kill this girl." you instead ask
"HOLY SHIT. WHAT IS YOUR GUYS' PROBLEM. LIKE SERIOUSLY YOU'RE LITERALLY SAYING YOU WANT TO KILL THIS GIRL? ARE YOU FOR REAL RIGHT NOW?!"
If I was actually concerned about the kid's safety, that's how I would sound if all my allies were advocating for child murder.
I'd genuinely be freaked out and disgusted by my friends if they legitimately thought this to be a good solution.
This would be a normal, caring reaction to this serious of a predicament.
And surprise, surprise; not one character attempts to get this point across.
So instead of being helpful, Luke (as well as Pete and Alvin, the other two characters that were apparently on Clem's side) just throws half-hearted defenses out there and just hopes they stick.
It really makes him sound indifferent to the issue.
As if he doesn't actually care what happens to Clementine.
This lack of regard is further proven when the doctor finally makes the choice to leave Clementine in the shed, and Luke doesn't so much as lift a finger in opposition.
A perfectly reasonable reaction to this reckless decision would be "DUDE. WOAH, ARE YOU SHITTING ME? THIS GIRL NEEDS MEDICAL ATTENTION RIGHT NOW, AND YOU'RE JUST GOING TO LEAVE HER INSIDE A COLD SHED FOR AN ENTIRE NIGHT. ARE YOU SICK IN THE HEAD, DOC? I'M NOT HELPING YOU MURDER THIS GIRL"
Does Luke even make the attempt to reason with the guy? No, of course he doesn't. He's frickin' nuts, I've already proven that.
Instead of doing something useful he twiddles his thumbs, leads Clementine to her shed and excretes a half-assed shitty apology when the girl presses him with questions.
He doesn't even seem to care (or is too stupid to realize) that keeping her in this confined space makes her EXTREMELY vulnerable to walkers (as she later has to experience) and would probably worsen the infection she already has.
To conclude, these are morally reprehensible behaviors and it annoys me that both Telltale and TWD fans gloss over these glaring character flaws like they never happened. This was bad/illogical writing at it's finest.
Luke and the rest of his crew are obviously sociopathic, ignorant and dangerous towards anyone they come across (as demonstrated later on in the season).
Like, they're legitimately evil in nature.
But yah getting back to the question, if I were Lee I'd beat his ass up (as well as Rebecca's, Nick's, and all the other idiots of the group).
I don't tolerate that sort of thing.
That's all in episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people.
Pete: Goes out like a hero, buys Clem to escape and head to the cabin
Nick: Distracts the zombies so Clem could escape and head back to the cabin
Alvin: He stayed behind at Carver's and Clem can convince him to give her some supplies for her arm
Carlos: He does show some concern for Clem, he tells Luke that she shouldn't cross the bridge with because she's a little girl and trusts her fully to take care of Sarah when he's not there
Rebecca: She might've hated Clem as first, but she grew to like her and tells Clem she's a good kid and is happy that Clem will help protect her child
Sarah: She gets Clem supplies for her arm and thinks Clem is best friend
Luke: He shows the most concern for Clem out of the cabin group, he defends her a tells his group that she isn't bit, he pulls Clem to the ground when Nicks shoots Matthew so she doesn't accidently get shot, he'll try to catch Clem if she falls while climbing the ladder, doesn't want Clem to be the one who turns on the PA system, if Clem tells Luke something is her fault, he's always say no and tell it isn't her fault, and tells Clem not to go over to the ice when he falls in it
Seriously guys, how come everyone just lets go unnoticed the fact that Clem didn't pass out at the same spot at which she woke up? We did catch a glimpse of Luke rushing to help her when he noticed she was about to fall to the ground. That made it kinda evident, at least to me, that he did carry her to a safer place (despite him saying earlier he wouldn't carry her anymore after seeing her bite). He didn't, however, bring her inside the cabin because the group definitely wouldn't approve of that, especially Carlos.
Besides, even though Luke is, deep within his heart, a nice guy, he can get frantic sometimes: this is heavily implied by his quite frequent failures in the game. (Nick mentions his business plan was a failure as well). Don't forget Nick's mom had gotten killed because he and Nick thought they were able to help a bitten person and both of them were still haunted by that guilt, so he acted on impulse when he found out another stranger which he was bringing to his group was bitten.
He definitely cares about the cabin group and didn't have much reason to care about Clementine other than her being a child (and bear in mind: many children CAN be dangerous in the Walking Dead universe), so he reckoned putting his group in jeopardy just to help another person with a bite wasn't worth the risk of it being, despite what Clem stated, a walker bite.
So yeah, he was unnecessarily harsh towards her after finding the bite. Nevertheless, the way I see it he made up for it by having a change of heart and deciding to help Clem in multiple ways. He:
-Gave Clem the benefit of the doubt and took her (even if just by dragging her body) to a safer spot after she passed out;
-Talked to Carlos himself (only he, Sarah and Carlos were inside the Cabin by the time you wake up) and probably also had to convince Carlos to even take a look at the bite;
-Defended her against the entire group and scolded them for almost shooting Clem and for treating a scared child the way they did (which was much worse than anything Luke did up to this point, ok?). Clem probably felt like the entire world was against her in that situation: Everyone she knew, especially Christa, was gone and all these strangers were harassing her instead of helping. Luke was the only one who was clearly on her side. Even Pete had mixed feelings (remember when he suggested cutting off her arm in cold blood?);
-Convinced the group to release her from the shed: There was still no sunlight at all by the time they come to check on Clementine, which means something made them at least consider giving her a chance, and by listening to the kitchen conversation, it becomes obvious Luke was the one who made them feel ashamed for suggesting and voting for locking Clem in the shed and not even try to help her. In fact, it's still night time by the time Carlos is talking to Clem about the bite, and Luke and Nick were the only ones giving a shit about whether or not Clem was going to be fine;
-Gave Clementine food: In fact, he offered her food even before Carlos proclaimed the bite wasn't a walker's. ('Hey, you hungry? sad face');
-And finally, he's the only one from the cabin to show interest in knowing Clementine's background and how she's feeling.
These are the main reasons why I loved Luke and his relationship with (my) Clementine; this is why I felt his character was so poorly written in Amid the Ruins and partially why I felt so devastated when he died.
Peace.
"That's all in Episode 1 though, Luke and the rest of the cabin group are actually pretty good people."
This sentence embodies everything that frustrates me about Luke/Rebecca/Carlos/etc sympathizers. To combat this argument, I'd like to provide a quote of my own.
"One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness"
Not sure where the quote comes from (Pirates of the Carribean, I think), but I'll be damned if I don't think it applies to this debate.
I don't understand the argument you're trying to present, really.
'Oh they only tried to kill that girl once, but they aren't going to try to do it again so that makes up for it.'
This is basically what you're saying.
It was their decision to act as rash and harmful as they did. Just because it's 'in the past' and the hard part's over, doesn't mean it should just be accepted and forgotten. Time shouldn't be a factor when it comes to judging others based on their actions. If someone does a despicable act even once in their lifetime, and they don't seek justice upon themselves, they're a despicable person for life.
All that aside, what I don't think you understand is that Clementine could have easily died because of these people's rash, unjustified decisions. If she had died canonically there could be no moving forward for these guys. No one would come to their defense. These people would have been seen as murderers (which they are) and the entire fanbase would give them a hatred far worse than anything Kenny's ever had to deal with.
The thing is though, whether Clem actually died or not is irrelevant to how you should judge these characters. The point is that they recklessly put her in a position where it was very likely she could have been killed or seriously injured.
This ties in with the (real-life) idiotic idea that we can charge someone with attempted-murder for a lesser sentence.
In this example, a person that attempts to murder someone should be tried for murder, even if they weren't successful. It shouldn't be the result you charge someone with, but rather the intent; and I can tell you straight-up that Luke and his buddies would be charged with some serious manslaughter charges if this were an actual court case.
Moving forward, and sort of getting back to your original point; I don't care how nice someone was before this incident happened, or how friendly they are towards you after the fact, this behavior is simply unforgivable.
The fact that Luke feels it's in good taste to joke about such a serious situation (even when he directly took part in it) is troubling.
"Ha ha. Remember that time we left you outside to die, even though you really needed our help? Oh boy, those were some good times."
That's basically what he's saying. Pretty despicable, right?
Your immediate forgiveness towards these people undermines the suffering Clementine had to go through to get basic medical attention (and care) that she should have gotten in the first place.
All of this being said, let's get to your little list.
Pete:
Like I said, just because he does one good thing doesn't justify or provide enough forgiveness for what he did.
I'll give him props for committing such a selfless act, but he was still a dick.
Let's not forget that Clem wouldn't have an arm if the crew had gone through with Pete's idiotic suggestion.
Nick:
I like how you leave out all the dickish things he did and just chose one small insignificant action instead. In comparison to the shit he's pulled, this minute point is drowning in Nick's own karma.
For example, you forgot to mention when he almost shot Clem, the time he irrationally and hurtfully blames her for _____'s death, and last but not least, when he shoots that one dude for no reason.
Nick is like the new-Kenny basically. Selfish, stubborn, unpredictable and he won't hesitate to cut your throat if it helps out his group in the smallest of ways.
The dude's a dangerous prick and even Telltale seems to know that, so it astounds me that you're actually defending him right now.
Alvin:
He shouldn't have to be convinced to do the right thing.
Clementine literally has to plead for him to get her the things she needs.
He should have helped her on his own accord, not because she begged him too.
If he's scared his group will throw him out in the cold, at least he saved a little girl's life.
Who cares what a bunch of psychopaths think about you? As long as you did the right thing, that should be all that matters.
Carlos:
Don’t get me even started on this guy. The supposed ‘Doctor’ that can’t even tell an animal bite from human one? The ‘Doctor’ that ethically finds it okay to leave a wound left untreated overnight? The 'Doctor that gives YOU the fuckin' lecture when are you are forced to treat your own wounds because he refused to help you.
No, don't even start man. This guy's by far the worst of these people. There's no way in the nine circles of Hell I'd forgive this man for what he did in any circumstance.
Rebecca:
Sarah:
Luke:
I'm tired for now.
I've spent a good long hour writing this thing and I'm already pooped.
I'm gonna take a bit of a break and finish Sarah, Luke and Rebecca later.
Feel free to refute this comment (even in it's current state) if you wish.
I'll get back to you soon.
Honestly, I think you're just holding a grudge for a mistake they made, they feel sorry for what they did, if you look at their facial expressions when they open up the shed and see the dead zombie with Clem, they feel horrible, and they repay by letting her be apart of the group. They could've just tell Clem to leave after her arm was healed, but they didn't.
Duck's got the right idea!
Up top, buddy!
That wasn't Luke's choice, it seems the cabin group makes votes, not just one guy makes all the choices
Those who didn't want her in the shed: Luke and Pete
Those who wanted her in the shed: Carlos, Rebecca, Nick
I think Luke will be good friend with my Lee. They both hold morals in very high value. However I think Lee may be unhappy with Luke once accidently leaving Clem in danger (I know Luke doesn't mean to, he just get short attetion time)....
Clem: I see some lights... Luke?
The cabin group run into a confliction with the ski lodge group. Luke reaches there the moment Lee and Kenny notice each other.
Lee: Holy shi... Luke? Where is Clementine?
Luke: Er...She's up there.
Lee: You left her ALONE?!
I think it's bad writing to have the cabin group's attitude change so fast. But if we ignore the writing and just talk about what happened, I still think it's forgivable.
They have helped a bitten people for once. It makes them lose a group memeber and almost all get killed. And when Clem comes to the group, nobody gets any clue about whether she's lying or not. Luke and Pete have already take risk to bring her to the cabin, let alone Pete lost his sister last time they helped someone. As for "murdering a little girl", just like what Chuck said in S1E3, you're no longer a little girl at that time. You're just bitten or not bitten, being a threat to the group or not a threat, lying or nor lying.
Luke is young and sanguineous and easy to change his attitude, mood, attetion, etc. He gets panic and throws Clem to the ground. But I think it's not fully on purpose. It's just out of instinct: you just throw away what you think is a danger to your life. But once he calms down, he's still the one who holds Clem and takes her to his group. Pete's suggestion of amputation is horrible to someone who's NOT bitten, but it can save someone who IS bitten. His suggestion just shows that he's still not sure whether Clem's lying, and bitten or not he's willing to save Clem's life. As for Alvin he gets a family to protect. If he's alone he will be more than willing to help Clem. But with a pregnant wife he has to considerate saving medicine for the coming baby.
As for leaving Clem in the shed, during the meeting Carlos says that Clem may get infected and die even if it's not a walker's bite. At this point Luke and Pete raise the point that then they should let her out. It makes them sound like idiot but it shows that they don't know Clem could still die without a walker bite before that point. If they know it at the beginning of this shit they won't leave her there without any treatment.
I agree with most of your opinion, but not the one about Pete. His suggestion of amputation is horrible to someone who's NOT bitten, but it can save someone who IS bitten. It just shows that he's still not sure about whether Clem's lying, and bitten or not he's willing to save Clem's life.
And this justifies them treating another human-being like garbage? Bitten or not, I hope people would be much more hospitable to those who are injured and need medical attention. It's selfish to only think of yourself and the 'danger' you face when this person is going to slowly grow sick and writhe in pain before they actually die from their bite. The danger these people are worried about, this person already had to deal with.
Now it's just a matter of them waiting for their own death. Even if Clementine was bitten, it's still wrong to not treat her wound and go on to stuff her in a shed where she's easily accessible to walkers. That would just result in an even worse death than she's experiencing. And even if she survived, her already infected wound would be in even worse shape by morning.
Great plan there, doc.
Class act.
First of all, Clem never came to the group. She was taken there by Lucas and Peter. She had no say in going or not, it seems.
Anyway, they had nothing to prove she was telling the truth? What about her frickin' bite, man? Just look at it! It totally isn't a human bite, it definitely is a dog bite, and her alibi isn't even all that far-fetched. The only reason the group's dumb doctor didn't identify it properly was because of the plot and it's bad writing. That is all.
Clementine's bite was proof enough of her 'innocence'.
(As if being bitten is something to be ashamed of).
Not really.
Just let her take a nap on your sofa for a bit and have someone watch her. If you want to be extra cautious, I feel it'd be reasonable to (comfortably) tie one of her arms to something, just to make sure nothing happens, but even then she's a little girl. If you're absolutely 100% careful, she can't do much to hurt you.
That's an incredibly evil way of thinking. I don't care if it's a quote from Chuck or not, that's just awful.
Yah, let's forget everything about who this person was, their wants and desires. Their emotions.
Hell, let's forget that they're still fucking alive. They've been bitten, so that automatically makes them sub-human garbage, amiright? It's not like they won't feel betrayed when you scrutinize and threaten them for a condition they can't help having.
All that, on top of the fact that they know they're going to die a slow and painful death if they don't get proper assistance.
And not that I want this to be a lasting point, as I feel people of all ages should be treated with hospitality, but this group is especially cold-hearted and evil when they didn't help a kid that was in this situation. Not only would it be easier for them to handle in terms of safety, but children are literally the embodiment of innocence.
Finding a small girl on her own after two years of an apocalypse; it can be assumed she's gone through some rough shit. Do these people not have any empathy? Why not make her last hour on Earth be the most warm and loving experience she's ever had? I just don't understand why any sane, moral person would turn even a child down in this predicament.
Yo, I'm younger than Luke and I'd never do something this batshit nuts.
Age doesn't excuse reprehensible deeds.
There's a difference between throwing something away, and someone away.
Clementine was a someone, and if Luke is just able to neglectfully discard and harm a fellow human-being (let alone a child) for selfish reasons, he's making my shitlist brah.
He didn't even apologize for it. Even Peter felt it more necessary to further question a bleeding girl then scold Lucas for his abusive behavior.
Only after she faints. Luke made it perfectly clear he wasn't going to carry her the rest of the way, and would've forced her to walk on her own.
(What an abusive prick. Seriously, how can you defend this guy?)
Except Clem wasn't bitten and it seemed like he believed her.
"Ah've got a good bullshit detector, Luke."
Remember that?
The fact he just recklessly throws this suggestion out there without and form of segway like "She said she wasn't bitten, and I believe her, but if she was I've heard that amputation is a possible solution."
How he originally worded it made it sound like he was going against Clem, and could have encouraged the others to do the same. At least with this new phrasing, it establishes that he is in favor of Clementine, but if things go wrong there are other options to choose from.
If he's wrong (which he was) he just wrongfully offered to amputate a girl's arm over a scratch.
Once again, another instance of you encouraging selfish decision-making. Hoarding medicine for your bitch-wife and not-even-born-yet baby when there's a girl that needs medical attention now? Clementine didn't even need more than a teaspoon of peroxide and a bandage. She didn't even need stitches really, so the idea that Alvin and the group had no medicine to spare is far-fetched.
If it was their plan to get Clem out of there, maybe it would have been a good idea to communicate that to Clem?
"Hey, give us a minute. Me and Pete will get you out of here in no-time. Sorry our group members are acting like buffoons right now."
Even if they were advocating for Clementine, they still left her in the shed alone. Why not have one of them stay behind with Clementine in the shed, make sure she's alright, and have the other try to negotiate with the crew to let her back in?
Another thing, why'd it take them so long to discuss the issue anyway? By the time everyone's debating about it, it's night time. If Petis and Lucca really wanted to get Clementine out of there, would they not try to continue the conversation ASAP?
And finally, why is this something only the group can discuss? Why can't Pete-roleum and Luke-ajin demand that Clementine take part in the discussion? Sense the argument's about her, why can't she have a say? It'd give her a chance to re-tell her alibi so everyone can understand, and would probably really help her case.
BECAUSE THEY ARE IDIOTS T^T
...[facepalm]
Could you please not seperate all the sentences one by one? They get into one point together. I've already given some of my points and don't want to repeat it again. Here's something new.
As for treating Clem as sub-human garbage, I wonder if you know how people treated patients who got lepra or diseases like that in old days. And lepra won't kill you at once.
And as for leaving Clem alone, I want to say that except for the Great chance that she would die of infection, it's safe there. The walker comes in because Clem breaks the corner of the wall.
And there's an old Chinese saying that once you were bitten by a snake, you would be afraid of ropes for ten years.
PS. I'm actually happy to meet people like you who hold morality in such a high level. But I don't count so much on the average level of humanity. In my mind most of time humanity is just a piece of shit painted gold. Humans don't do better than other animals. Actually worse. We're the only kinds of creatures who frequently start wars, killing each other on a large scale. Maybe that's why I forgive the cabin group so easily.
PSS. I must admit I misquote Chuck's words. They has definately different meaning. I actually knew that while typing but I just got it wrong.
I'LL FORMAT MY SENTENCES THE WAY I WANT, BOI
Unless my way of typing makes my comment illegible, I don't think it really matters.
That being said, I do see where you're coming from. This thread's way of spacing things out looks a lot less neat then it would on other sites. So, I guess I'll tone it down.
It isn't really repeating yourself if you're simply adding onto your original point. If we are at a disagreement, feel free to propose a counter-argument. It would be a shame if we dropped the previous discussion without at least understanding each other's position, in my opinion at least. And it's not like you would be reiterating anything. I provided new points for you to refute, so there's at least something 'new' you could bring to the table.
I'm very much aware of the cruel things that were done to lepers back in the day and trust me, I ain't happy about it.
Thank you for agreeing with me about the risk of infection part, but I don't quite understand why you think the shed would be safe? Imagine if a crowd of walkers just gathered around the shed and just started applying their strength to it. The walls would collapse and Clementine would seriously be screwed. Even if she survived the night, the crew would have to fight through a ton of zombies to save the poor girl (if they felt like it).
lolwut
Thanks. I appreciate it. Yah, there are a lot of things I'm frustrated with society about. I won't go into my political opinions as of right now, but there's a lot of screwed up stuff out there.
I personally can't understand that way of thinking. The group committed reprehensible deeds, therefore I see them as reprehensible people. It just seems like everyone in this fandom has their standards so low for the morals these characters are supposed to have, and that's why they're able to sympathize with them. I personally find it an injustice to Clementine to be so forgiving. Telltale could have cut the forced drama and just introduced these guys the same way characters in the first season were introduced. It's just disappointing that this season could have been so much better and people still applaud it.
It's all good, man. If you would like to rephrase what you meant feel free to do so.
uhhhhh what?
FUCK YEAH GHOST AXE!
well kenny i see you had a little to much to drink
My Lee would have liked Luke. They had the same views on most things and Lee would have appreciated anybody who cared about and looked after Clementine.
If you played Lee to be good and true, I think he and Luke would have gotten along quite well. I can see Luke looking up to Lee as a role model of sorts, and Lee trying to pass on some of his wisdom down to him. I think their relationship would be akin to Luke and Pete's relationship to each other.
If you played the "Asshole" Lee route, I think their relationship would be similar to Luke's relationship to Kenny. Lots of arguing and disagreeing, but ultimately some begrudging teamwork in order to get things done.
Well alot of your claims are quite bullshit, to be honest, Pete was never a dick to Clem, amputating her arm would definitely have hurt but it could have potentially saved her life, he didn't really know if she was really bitten or not and he believed her when she claimed she wasn't bit. Nick made a mistake, but at least he apologized to Clem like a man instead of pouting about it and acting like he did nothing wrong like Kenny, Carlos's stupidity is the result of bad writing, but he didn't seem like a bad person, just someone who was protecting the ones he cared about. The cabin group are not saints, and I appreciated that, they weren't 100% good nor 100% evil in episode 1, just paranoid folks who were looking out for each other. clearly though, it seems like folks have to be 100% good people to be okay in your book, which is quite narrow minded.
I can't tell if you're responding to me or not. If you aren't, I apologize for responding.
If you are, here's my rebuttal.
He allowed Luke to carelessly drop Clementine onto the ground. After that he pestered Clem about her bite when she was severely bleeding and clearly losing consciousness. When Luke decided he wouldn't help her the rest of the way, Pete did not offer to help either. I could go on for longer but I think I've proven my point.
Amputating her arm would've hurt?! xD
No shit, how did you guess? I never could've figured that one out.
Understatement of the frickin' century, dude. Not only are you going to lose a lot of blood (as well as an entire limb), it completely hinders your ability to survive. You have to rely on other people to take care of you, and that is a decision only Clem should have made. I doubt the group would've given her a say in the matter if they actually chose to go through with it.
Also, Clem wasn't bitten, rendering amputation to be pointless. How do you not understand that?
Apologies don't automatically make everything better.
And besides, his 'mistakes' weren't mistakes. He actively made the decision to want kill Clem. He actively wanted her to be stuffed in that small shed. Hell, if the bullet hit Clem, he wouldn't even be able to apologize. If you put someone's life in danger and only then apologize, it's already too late.
He scolded Clementine for seeking out the proper care she needed when he's the one that refused to treat her in the first place. You can 'protect the people you care about' and still be a civil human being. It's not hard.
I'm not saying they have to be (although it would give me a good reason to care for them). I just want them to be decent human beings. That's all really.
Nah, they're pretty evil. They could have handled the situation better.
They didn't.
I'd appreciate if characters have to deal with an issue as serious as walker bites and their victims, they would be hospitable and kind-hearted towards the people they have to take care of.
Nice strawman.
Like I said, not asking for perfect characters. Just asking for nice, non-sociopathic ones.
Anyway I find it disturbing that this group committed very serious child neglect and abuse and that doesn't even effect your opinion of them. These actions are just 'mistakes' to you apparently. This isn't an issue of whether or not these characters are 'perfect' or not. It's a matter of criticizing their questionable moral standards.
Would that also include that incident with the bridge in Season 1 Episode 3?
The Governer before the apocalypse...
With regards your comments about Nick almost killing Clemintine; it seemed more like he was being pressured into shooting her, which is what he says to Rebecca if the player picks an option in which Clemintine tries to speak to the Cabin group. My point regarding Nick being pressured into shooting Clemintine can be emphasised if the player remains silent as Rebecca attempts to take the gun off Nick.
Another thing to take into consideration when thinking about the entire Cabin Group is that it has just escaped a camp run by a maniacal dictator-like figure who shows no remorse for others and thus the group were worried that Clemintine might be a scout for Carver, who is mentioned frequently throughout the episode, for example during the group meeting in the kitchen and when everybody is standing over Clemintine as she wakes up. To bring up Nick again, if the player chooses to run, he fires what I think is a warning shot to possibly stop her from running back to Howes.
Pete had no real control over whether or not Luke dropped her or not, that was a split second action, and honestly you're really overreacting when it comes to Pete's remarks toward Clementine about the bite, bite victims are risky and frankly you can't really tell if their telling the truth or not, Pete gave her the benefit of the doubt in the end, and yes Clem wasn't bitten, WE knew that, but the Cabin group and Pete didn't know that for sure. Nick was paranoid considering he just took care of a bite victim and it was his mother, I could totally understand where he was coming from, clearly you didn't. No, you totally want the cabin group to be saints, why else are you complaining and whining that they weren't 100% nice to a stranger, especially when its two years in the apocalypse where children can be potentially used to get into groups and lead to sabotage, saying that they're evil is extremely narrow minded, and stupid, and no I'm not entirely defending the shed, that was dumb, but it was a contrived scenario to give Clem and the player something to do. The cabin group are not evil, nor are they saints, yes their actions are morally questionable, but you can't seriously label small actions like Luke panicking and accidentally dropping Clementine to then suddenly call that person "evil", that's just petty and stupid on your part. Hell, some of the actions Lee can make in the first season are morally questionable , but by in large you can still make him into a good person who has to do the hard thing from time to time.