If Some Characters Were Introduced Differently....
InGen_Nate_Kenny
Moderator
Would it change your opinion of them?
I'm going to use the raccoon duo of Amid The Ruins, Bonnie and Mike, as my examples.
Let's say Bonnie gave Walter supplies instead of the other way around, would it make a difference in your ultimate judgment? I got REALLY angry when I saw Bonnie with Carver. I wanted to make her pay so badly, especially after taking the supplies Walter gave to her.
If she had given Walter supplies, I would probably end up not being so harsh with her later on.
Now what if Mike ended up warning Carver of the escape, betraying you in that sense, and spent the rest of the game making it up to you? I probably would have disliked him more, maybe forgive him. Now if he still betrayed us for Arvo I'd be more pissed.
But I remember Mike as friendly guy, so if TellTale did this I'd be a lot more harsh with him.
What about you guys?
Comments
I wonder what people would think off Lee if we started off Coming home, kill the senator, and then we are in the cop car
My beef with Bonnie in episode 2 was not that Walter gave her supplies under false pretenses, but just that I knew (personally) that she was lying about having a family and was just pretty much bullshitting after that. That being said I still liked Bonnie during S2, until she offered Clem that cigarette not giving a single fuck about it, then I went back to distrusting her.
Mike had a rough intro, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and it paid off. He was nice and level headed through-out the season to Clem (until the betrayal). If he did sell out the group to Carver than he'd be pretty much doomed in terms of trust and would get the "O well Reggie's a lame character" treatment.
I never really hated Bonnie...so it wouldn't change much.
I never cared much about Mike as it is...a bad first impression would just have made me not trust him and be rude to him. Probably would be less surprised that he betrays us.
Maybe if Larry wasn't acting like the biggest asshole in the universe at the drug store concerning Duck, maybe I would have liked him more. Then again, the punch really solidifies my hate for him, so I guess not.
Perhaps if Doug was the one that killed the walker and not Carley, I may have saved him instead of Carley.
I think that if Nick were a woman, who made the same mistakes. The Cabin Group wouldn't have been so hard on him/her. Also, if Sarah were a boy, everyone would've been harder on her/him.
EDIT: Probably not exactly in theme with the thread, but worth a thought.
Dude that would have been so fun.
Well, it's worth thinking about in terms of real life, however in the context of Walking Dead Season 2, where a little eleven year old girl gets absolutely no sympathy or remorse and is feared to be an enemy, I find it unlikely there would be a difference in reaction to mistakes such as firing when you're not supposed to, and murdering a person for no reason except paranoia. Lilly, anybody?
One thing that probably would be different, though, is how a niece of Pete's would be treated as opposed to his nephew, who he tried to raise to be tough, unaware of how Nick just didn't fit into that expected role. Again, certainly worth thinking about, but remember also that Pete's the dude who suggested almost off-handedly that they could just amputate Clementine's arm to save her, and praises her for being tough as nails. I get the feeling Pete's a strict "no underestimating" kind of guy, regardless of gender, but family could very well play a role in how he views it.
Unlikely, lest they feel the wrath of Carlos. I don't see Carlos treating a son with a disability any differently than he would a daughter, given that it was probably his medical background that informed his viewpoint on Sarah's condition. One may think that that would change once Carlos died, and I would reply that Sarah hardly had a free ride after Carlos' death. Jane tried to get you to leave her to a brutal death, twice, Luke is yelling at her, no one really comforts her or pays any attention to her after saving her the first time should you do so, and everyone forgets about her pretty quickly after she dies. I can't imagine a young boy would have any worse of a time than Sarah did purely because he's a boy.
Also keep in mind that Kenny is going through pretty much the same kind of shock as Sarah at the same time, and the group is fairly understanding of it. Rebecca even castigates Clementine for saying Kenny is being a dick, reminding her that he's going through a lot of pain. The group needed him to snap out of it because of what he could offer to them, but were otherwise fairly understanding despite him being a grown man. So I think a young boy being in complete shock would likely garner the same amount of sympathy.
Something else to consider: How would the fanbase have reacted to such characterizations? Because many, many times this fanbase has lambasted female characters for relatively minor offenses compared to murderous or evil male characters who get tons of defense and fans. Even the comparable offenses can show a disconnect sometimes. Bonnie lies to the group? "WHORE, JUNKIE, BITCH, TRAITOR." Carver callously murders Walter to bait Kenny out? "I see Carver as this complex villain who works in underhanded ways to get what he needs; he shows a certain cold, but fair logic to him since he doesn't kill anyone until one of his own is shot." So yeah.
There was really no reason for Bonnie or Mike to stay with the group so I kind of understand why they would leave, I mean they both hated Kenny, they both distrusted Jane, they both had little to no ties with Rebecca or Alvin to care enough about AJ, Mike and Bonnie showed care for AJ but that's kind of a normal reaction around babies and as for Clementine, they knew her for only a few days and were kind of in mutual and opposing relationships at certain points in time. If they had been shown to have a connection with the remaining survivors, I would've been a whole lot angrier as to why they would leave a good friend behind but they didn't good friends so yeah :x
I really see no difference to how people would act if they were gender-swapped, allot of people are the type to let liabilities die no matter what.
Damn Dawn, nothing stops your bloodlust of US Senators.
"I wish we could have met differently Clementine,"
-Arvo
Me too Arvo, me too.
I kinda wish we could have met Lilly and Larry differently also. I hated how Larry was so adamant on throwing Duck out I can't ever side with him on that when I do replays.
Interesting fact, did you know in A New Day, when you're talking to everyone Larry mentions if anything 'happens to that little girl with you' he will punish you. Sadly no one noticed this.
Larry was one of my favorite characters.
I'd argue that Carlos' protectiveness of his daughter is partly caused by gender roles - girls are seen as much more vulnerable and needing of protection than boys are, after all.
I suppose my good-will towards Kenny was caused by the friendly first impression he made. Likewise, Lilly probably would've been more sympathetic to me if she'd been introduced under calmer circumstances.
Carver could've been less obviously evil if Clem had run into him in the middle of the woods, rather than having him barge into the cabin and terrorize Sarah.
The Russians are implied to be ordinary folks who simply misunderstood what Clem's intentions were.
Yeah, both Lilly and Larry seemed to care for Clementine I remember that made me like them a lot more when I first played the game even though I mostly sided with Kenny then.
So instead of meeting Pete and Luke in the woods, Clementine runs into Carver instead?
And after having a positive impression of him first, after seeing the lengths he goes to get the cabin group back, the player can decide who to side with. That would have been so cool.
Yeah, I'd have loved for Clem's first encounter with him to be a lot more neutral/amiable. He'd give her some details about the damage caused by the escapees (conveniently leaving out his own culpability), which'd only make it easier to see him in a neutral light. As it is in the final product, Carver's way too monstrous to really be considered a 'lesser evil' - particularly when he starts torturing men in front of their daughters and murdering tied-up men.
A good way to show Carver's manipulative side would have been to have him paint the cabin group in a negative light and how in comparison he just "Wants to bring his family back home," and the player can choose to believe him unconditionally or be suspicious until you see him act similar to the way he did at the lodge, then Clem can make her final judgement. I don't know how she'd get the chance to interact with a member of the cabin group beforehand and hear them tell their story, perhaps that would have been necessary to hear both sides before making the big choice...Maybe she meets Nick or Luke in the woods or something and they tell her about Carver. (I can't organize my thoughts I have so many. .-. )
I think it'd have been interesting for Episode 1 to play out the way it did, but then starting off Episode 2 with Clem being separated once again only to run into Carver. After all, it's heavily implied that he was responsible for gunning down Christa's attackers - hell ,he might even use that as leverage. ("Sure, darlin', we'll keep an eye out for her!")
And Carver continuing his "concerned father" act in Episode 3 would've made him a little more convincing than having him suddenly revert to a grade-school bully. Only a total lunatic would believe that telling a little girl "they are weak and we are strong" would actually work. Sociopaths work better when they appeal to your sense of humanity and manipulate your empathy, not when they make it obvious that they lack a soul.
I think Nick always thought he had something to prove, to Pete. I think if he were a woman; you take that out of their relationship, and you might end up with a better one. There wouldn't be any pissing matches. No "whatever's". There'd actually be a strong bond there. Which would, in turn make losing Pete even tougher.
Regarding Sarah, I meant before Carlos died. One example I think of is the pictures, she and Clem(determinant) took. Carlos says: "Pictures? What were you doing taking pictures?" It takes Luke to calm him down a bit. I think if Sarah were a boy, Carlos would lose his temper way more. I still think his #1 objective would be to keep her/him safe. But I think he would've gone about it differently. Wouldn't have kept her so close to the vest. IMO, at least.
sorrynotsorry
Re: Nick... perhaps, but this has more to do with how the writing would handle the dynamic. We've seen several examples in this series of female characters who aren't afraid to get into pissing matches with guys (well okay, just Kenny, but you get what I mean :P), so they could have done that here too, but I do see your point because while I think Pete's a tough dude all around, it's a little harder for me to imagine him being so overly harsh on a niece. But it's not out of the realm of possibility either.
Re: Sarah... that's why I mentioned Carlos, who I personally think would be understanding either way, or at least not get bent out of shape for minor offenses any more than he already did. But we can only assume either way, and only based on our preconceptions of how society views these things. With Carlos specifically, we don't know all that much about him to say for sure.
Possibly, but obviously there's no way of knowing for sure. I guess a case can be made while taking into account Carlos' protectiveness of Clementine when Luke wants to take her to the bridge and into danger, although some would argue that's just common sense not taking an eleven year old as your backup plan.
I try not to base people on first impressions. I see how they progress and act over time and look for their reasons for their actions and not the actions itself. So a different first impression wouldn't change my opinion too much unless it was something that completely changes everything.
if luke would be a woman cluke thing won't happen....
It's hard to say because Carlos was never around a male child from what we know. It's even possible that Carlos is overprotective because he lost a son, who really knows?
People still could've shipped them, just because it's not heterosexual doesn't mean it's not shippable :x
I think I like that idea better. Especially if Clementine still resents the cabin group for locking her in the shed, (Clem's determinant(?) line to Luke comes to mind.) maybe the player can be more open to showing trust towards him.
Seeing Carver interact with the non-prisoner members of the community would have helped build a more complex character, maybe he could have taken Clem to work with him or whatever it is he does all day when not in his office interrogating people and making pregnant women cry.
You CAN bring up the cabin group's untrustworthiness to Carver in the canonical first encounter, but at the same time circumstances force you to consider them the moral grey to Carver's pitch-black.
The cameos of the 400 Days protagonists were annoying because players expected to see more from these characters. I personally would've been less annoyed if I didn't know what Wyatt/Russell/Vince's personalities were beforehand, or wanting of resolution for their motives (Eddie, grandmother, Justin.)
True. But like I said, it's worth a "thought". That's about all it's worth, though.
Yeah, if the Cabin group weren't all introduced as idiots who locked up 11 year old girls in sheds and then continued to give them dirty looks and constant mistrust.
Apart from Pete, and maybe later Luke.