I know that many of my friends would've bought the new S&M games if they were harder...
But now I'm getting convinced that these games are not for me. They were never targeted to me in the first place, and will never be.
Tough luck, but there are other (old) adventure games out there to play.
Why not actually take the time to, y'know, play the game before so summarily dismissing it?
algotsson make sure you get culture shock.. while I would like the game more difficult you cant just focus on that and ignore all the great things about this game.
I thought the difficulty level was just right, hard enough that you have to think out of the box, but solvable before frustration set in. The best part was the dialogue, with a few exceptions the voice acting was great and lots of things to say to the various characters in each situation.
One thing I didn't like about the first game though was the restrictions on exploring, I always wished I could explore or play with more of the various objects in the environment, sam always seems to follow a very linear path in his walking. Now with the great graphics, I even hoped more I could explore a little more, but Sam is still very restricted in where he can walk.
Also, more things like the whack-a-mole game and gator golf (which are interactive) would really add to the replay value. For example a target range that has a puzzle to solve the first time, but you can revisit later on to try and get a high score. And a little more room to walk around in the town with more clickables, possibly a minigame or two, would really enhance the experience.
There is a design technique for adventure games that can help make the puzzles simultaneously more obtuse and more logical. Now, I came up with this realization recently, so I’m sure designers have been employing this technique for a while. I probably just didn’t notice.
That is to create puzzles that conform with the idiosyncrasies of a character.
Interesting idea! It is certainly one of our goals at Telltale to make puzzles and activities that are appropriate for the characters in the story. Every action helps to define a character, even (and especially) when those actions are directed by the player.
The player will be forced to get away from conventional thinking, because they cannot simply come up with their own logical interpretation of a circumstance. This could logically explain how puzzle solutions that seem reasonable to the player do not actually solve the puzzle (moving a chair across the room to reach higher would be ideal, except for the protagonist’s deadly fear of chairs).
It also benefits the story. If success is dependent upon understanding the character, you give the player that much more motivation to understand how the character thinks.
I totally agree. I'm very much in favor of making puzzle solutions encourage you to think like the character, but ruling out incorrect puzzle solutions due to character limitations (while very possible), can be much trickier to pull off. If I can see clearly that a solution ought to work, but my character refuses to do it for some unknown reason, it can be very frustrating.
Now, if my character refuses to do something for a KNOWN reason (such as an established chair-phobia), then certainly, that can serve to give puzzles an added twist or challenge, as well as deepen the character. But even that's tricky to get right. I don't think anyone actually wants to have a deadly fear of chairs, so if you make a game about a character who does, you'd better be sure that this added difficulty won't be painful or tiresome (at least not without a meaningful reward).
Some contemporary interactive fiction (i.e. text games) explore this area more thoroughly than any commercial games I know. If you don't mind typing, you might try checking out Rameses by Stephen Bond. It's not quite a game in the usual sense, and it should only take about an hour to finish, but it deals with some interesting issues of character "idiosyncrasies".
Personally, I’m also a fan of becoming someone interesting, and I feel much more absorbed in a game when I’m forced to think and act like someone else, than thinking and acting as I would. Not sure if this is the case for everyone else.
This does seem a little obvious, though. With the long history of adventure design, this theory has probably been implemented. But perhaps not to the level I have in mind.
I'd say you're right on both counts. Overall, though, most games seem to have little concern for the identity of the protagonists. Adventure game characters typically are given all manner of MacGyver-esque activities to puzzle over, regardless of who they are and how they would actually go about solving problems.
This is something we're working on at Telltale, but it's pretty difficult to come up with a range of challenges that consistently deepen a specific character. You and I, for example, might be very different people, but we'd probably solve many problems the same way. Not every challenge can be solved in a very character-specific way, but we do try to make sure you never have to do something quite out-of-character.
By the way, this sort of thinking extends to non-player characters and aspects of the world as well. Our goal is to make puzzles whose solutions rely on the most entertaining and interesting aspects of the other characters and environment. Thus, to proceed in the story, you have to have experienced and appreciated the most fun things the game world has to offer.
I’d like to see the protagonist comment directly on how they view an obstacle, giving insight into how he or she views the puzzle. This isn’t to be confused with a hint (gee, I sure would love to have widget X right now!). Not an overt one, anyway. But maybe an indication of how the character would approach a problem. Take a locked door that the character must get through. Perhaps a shifty character would say something like “locks are made to be brokenâ€. Maybe a more impatient/violent character, like Max, would say “This door fills me with loathing and disgust. It must be destroyed.†Neither gives away how to do a puzzle, but it gets the player thinking along the lines of the character.
If the designer wants, they can make it more obtuse than that, though. Perhaps simply by speculating on the character, the player can deduce how that character would approach an obstacle.
Yes, establishing the characters' approaches to problems is very important to us. Sometimes it may be appropriate for the characters to comment directly on the problem at hand, but even more generally, we want their outlook and personality to be shown in everything they do. I hope that when you play Sam & Max, for example, you really get a feel for just how "freelance" their policework is, and use that to inform your thought process when solving the puzzles.
Didn't take time to read this, but I thought it had the perfect amount of difficulty! I feel like I ripped off Telltale by buying it through Gametap though =(
I totally agree. I'm very much in favor of making puzzle solutions encourage you to think like the character, but ruling out incorrect puzzle solutions due to character limitations (while very possible), can be much trickier to pull off. If I can see clearly that a solution ought to work, but my character refuses to do it for some unknown reason, it can be very frustrating.
It's not a technique that should be abused, that's for sure. But there could be some specifics about a character that could be revealed though puzzle attempts that should work, but don't. What making puzzles consistent with the characters can do without the presence of an out-of-character solution is serve as better justification for what is put into the game. Though the design may present you with only one way to complete the puzzle, the world, in the mind of the gamer, probably has many other ways to solve a particular puzzle. If the puzzle solutions are all relatively consistent with the protagonist(s), then it seems less artificial. If I get the sense that Manny is a mellow guy, I'd believe that he'd scare away the birds with the popping of the balloon, rather than getting a sprouting machine gun and get rid of them all.
Now, if my character refuses to do something for a KNOWN reason (such as an established chair-phobia), then certainly, that can serve to give puzzles an added twist or challenge, as well as deepen the character. But even that's tricky to get right. I don't think anyone actually wants to have a deadly fear of chairs, so if you make a game about a character who does, you'd better be sure that this added difficulty won't be painful or tiresome (at least not without a meaningful reward). I'm definitely opposed to unexplained refusals, but if the character actually states their biases, it shouldn't be a problem. That does bring up whether or not that seems like a part of the character, or a cop-out to make a seemingly logical solution unworkable, but that can be judged on a case by case basis. In some designs, where the most basic solution is painfully obvious, it can be quite comical that the character can't do it the simple way. But that would obviously work much more in a comedy than a drama.
While in some cases, it's great to have a character that the player absolutely wants to be, like Indiana Jones for instance, I think it's also intriguing to play a flawed character/wimp. Does anyone really want to be Guybrush Threepwood? Yet it's fun to be in his shoes, largely because he's so... underwhelming for a pirate. Though I don't know too much about the game, wasn't Sanitarium's protagonist also intriguing because you didn't know how deep his insanity reached? Who would like to be in that head? So again, it all comes down to the particular context. This is definitely not a technique that should be pursued at the expense of other things in the design.
Some contemporary interactive fiction (i.e. text games) explore this area more thoroughly than any commercial games I know. If you don't mind typing, you might try checking out Rameses by Stephen Bond. It's not quite a game in the usual sense, and it should only take about an hour to finish, but it deals with some interesting issues of character "idiosyncrasies". Interesting that you use the term "interactive fiction". I've used that term to describe what I believe are the next major storytelling medium to emerge; interactively told stories. They'll be like videogames, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them evolve out of the graphic adventure genre (Indigo Prophecy, anyone?). I'll take a look at the game or whatever it is. It'll be interesting to see if there are any parallels between that, and the theories I have for interactive storytelling.
I'd say you're right on both counts. Overall, though, most games seem to have little concern for the identity of the protagonists. Adventure game characters typically are given all manner of MacGyver-esque activities to puzzle over, regardless of who they are and how they would actually go about solving problems.
This is something we're working on at Telltale, but it's pretty difficult to come up with a range of challenges that consistently deepen a specific character. You and I, for example, might be very different people, but we'd probably solve many problems the same way. Not every challenge can be solved in a very character-specific way, but we do try to make sure you never have to do something quite out-of-character.
It's certainly difficult, but because the game part of adventure games are focused entirely on puzzle design, the more effort that's poured into the actual design, the better. As far as coming up with puzzles that are appropriate, you can probably break it down into the following steps:
1. What needs to happen to advance the story?
2. What kind of obstacles might stand in the way of the protagonist?
3. Would any of these obstacles be approached differently depending on the person confronted with it?
4. Will the player understand the character enough as of this time to know that he or she would approach the puzzle in such a way? Can we integrate the necessary information earlier if the player needs it?
Simpler in theory than in practice, I'm sure, but it can be done, IMO. Just expect a few sleepless nights trying to figure it all out.
By the way, this sort of thinking extends to non-player characters and aspects of the world as well. Our goal is to make puzzles whose solutions rely on the most entertaining and interesting aspects of the other characters and environment. Thus, to proceed in the story, you have to have experienced and appreciated the most fun things the game world has to offer. An excellent pursuit. If you create an interesting story and world, and you create puzzles that progress the story rather than exist for their own sake, you should naturally create puzzles that are fun in of themselves. I also think that the more unique the circumstance, the more opportunity the designer is given to make the puzzle character-centric.
Yes, establishing the characters' approaches to problems is very important to us. Sometimes it may be appropriate for the characters to comment directly on the problem at hand, but even more generally, we want their outlook and personality to be shown in everything they do. I hope that when you play Sam & Max, for example, you really get a feel for just how "freelance" their policework is, and use that to inform your thought process when solving the puzzles. I'm definitely looking forward to playing Sam and Max. In fact, I'm planning to buy the full season shortly. It'll be nice to step outside pure theory, and actually analyze a graphic adventure design to see how it works, what it does right and wrong. It also helps that in the particular perspective of assessing how well the puzzle solutions reflect the characters, I'm in fairly familiar territory with Sam and Max.
Good thoughts, thanks!
My pleasure.
Ha! I got an error message of accusing my post of being too short!
I think the length of the game is impacting on the level of difficulty. I dont think you can fault the work of dave grossman.. his puzzles are designed as well as day of the tentacle..but in that game you had 3 characters in 3 timelines.. hours of gameplay..heaps of things to do.. an an episode of sam & max the locations the structure the shortness of it makes it hard to make it difficult and make sense.. less to do, easier to progress.
I've been thinking it over as well as playing culture shock a few more times. This game is a great introduction to the genre and I have to remind myself that this is episode one from season one. I figured out why I found it so easy, because i'm used to adventure games not telling me what I have to accomplish and figureing it out on my own. I have the mindset to figure out "okay, i'm trying to do somthing...how can I do that with what I have". And figureing out what i'm supposed to accomplish is half the puzzle. Culture shock seems to actually be very good in the way it introduces this way of thinking to people who don't exactly know that you're supposed to accomplish somthing.
I remeber playing Myst when I was around eleven years old and just wondering around aimlessly for hours and hours untill I figured that by moving things I could get places and to things...without knowing exactly why.
Placing more direction, and getting people into the mind-state of trying to accomplsih somthing with the information that is given is a great introduction into the genre for people who would probably wander around aimlessly otherwise.
My hope is that these "compass pointers" will gradually be taken away from the series to allow the gamer to think for his/her self. Instead of "I have to set the cow on fire to get it out of the way" you can think "hmm...i can't go any farther. maybe this cow is in the way. What do i have to get rid of this cow?...ah fire might work!"
All in all I retract my aggressive statements with the understanding that this is just the beginning and a quite succesfull introduction into the genre that gets the atmosphere and the humor of Sam and Max spot on.
I remeber playing Myst when I was around eleven years old and just wondering around aimlessly for hours and hours untill I figured that by moving things I could get places and to things...without knowing exactly why.
Oh man I had exactly the same experience as you all those years ago Excellent point though, this is the "pilot" So you dont want to lose a lot of your audience first up.. but the following episodes should track progressively harder..
Here's an example that really annoyed me. You go to Sybil and she says you need to knock the Soda Poppers out to snap them out of the hypnosis. By then I had already knocked out Whizzer using the security system in the inconvenience store. Objects in my inventory: 1) Bowling ball 2) Boxing Glove 3) Spray Can. Which of these 3 is not like the others? Durrrrrr....
It's especially silly because of the way the camera keeps panning to and from the office window and graffiti piece every single time you leave. Why not put a big neon sign next to it saying "Heavy Object Dropping Location HERE ->"?
Another example: the anti-hypnotizing helmet. This would be a perfect occasion for letting the player do some creative thinking, for example by having to look at the diagram and having to substitute the prescribed parts for equivalents from the game environment. For example, if the diagram showed a regular antenna, we could logically deduce that the coathanger-antenna from the TV would work as well (especially if we see Sam 'adjusting the reception' earlier in the game). And if a metal helmet is needed, we could realize that a collander could work too.
Such puzzles are easy to do, and you can provide additional hints as you go. For example, looking at a big pile of junk in an alley, you could get the following responses if you keep trying various incorrect objects:
"Hmm... I wonder if there's something I could use here for the helmet?"
"No, that doesn't work."
"I don't think that's appropriate."
"I think the diagram prescribes something made out of metal."
"No, that's too fat. I need something thinner."
"I need something to double as an *antenna*"
etc.
I don't think the fact that people post "I'm stuck" threads here should be interpreted that the difficulty is too high or 'just right'. There will always be people who will be too lazy to do some thinking and want to continue with the game right now instead of trying various options, or turning off the game and coming back later with a fresh mind. Just like there will always be really smart people who will say it is too easy.
As a player of many adventure games, I think the balance is clearly too far on the 'easy' side.
I have to agree here, I used very little logic skills while playing and most of it was glaring obvious or just following common sense.
Ive always believed Sam and Max's world to be as far detatched from sense as it is possible to be.
If I was to compare the games to old fashioned puzzles.
Hit The Road - Crossword + Sudoku
Culture Shock - Join the dots
Without tough puzzles to solve CS just didnt feel very.... rewarding.
When you managed to surpass a tricky problem in HTR there was a huge sense of satisfaction which I just didnt get from CS.
Another example: the anti-hypnotizing helmet. This would be a perfect occasion for letting the player do some creative thinking, for example by having to look at the diagram and having to substitute the prescribed parts for equivalents from the game environment. For example, if the diagram showed a regular antenna, we could logically deduce that the coathanger-antenna from the TV would work as well (especially if we see Sam 'adjusting the reception' earlier in the game). And if a metal helmet is needed, we could realize that a collander could work too.
God yes. I love those types of puzzles, like making the battery in DOTT. Especially when you have to use such silly objects that the invention comes out all funky-looking in the end. If the plans had shown some futuristic space-agey helmet and then I'D come up with using a coathanger and a collander, I would have found it very amusing. Bosco? Eh, we'd already established that he made weird inventions out of household objects; the humour was diminished.
I honestly thought most of the puzzles were pretty difficult. It took me forever to knock out the two Soda Poppers after Peepers, and the final puzzle took about 10-15 minutes of concentrated effort too. Maybe there just aren't enough of them.
One puzzle I did think was made easier than it needed to be was the APD puzzle. I would've preferred if Sam didn't mention it to Sybil automatically. The list of symptoms and Max's hint about getting someone official to sign the form were enough. Maybe they were worried about people having to remember the symptoms. Perhaps some sort of inventory "Look At" button would solve that, provided Sam took one of those APD papers with him.
Now of course, the puzzle would certainly have been very difficult that way, but if they're worried about making a puzzle too difficult, they can always include a Hint function. (Did they? I never looked for one.)
I have serious doubts about buying this game. I´ve been waiting forever for this and was really disappointed in Lucas Farts when they cancelled their game.
I find TellTale´s business concept (a smaller company that sells games via internet) absolutely fantastic, but on the other hand, I feel disappointed in them because they are trying to please those (few?) business guys who don´t have time to play a game so games have to be made shorter, faster and easier to please them, which, by the way, is pretty fucking stupid. I am a fan of Sam and Max but it´s not like I will accept and buy a shitty product, (like someone said) that isn´t even targeted for me. I know, I know it´s all about the money and those (numerous?) busy business guys are the ones who are willing to buy those nice little entertainment packages which are as challenging as a colouring book for the kids. If that´s your market, then fine, you can forget my money.
I don´t understand what is the freaking problem with you guys. It would have been easy as hell to make hard puzzles that would have pleased the hardcore audience and still make the game playable for idiots and at the same time it would have even increased the game´s replayability. You know, you have that cute little bunny that can talk. Why the hell couldn´t he give hints and maybe even spell out solutions to the most stupidest of the players? If that was done in a humorous manner even the hardcore gamers could have played the game again asking tips from Max just to check out the fun stuff. The greatest thing of all would have been that asking tips from Max could have been optional and maybe not even necessary when the player could figure out the puzzle on his own.
What comes to mega monkey modes and easy modes, well I once read an argument that players don´t want to feel stupid and therefore it wouldn´t be too great to add an easy mode and a mega hard normal mega monkey mode. That´s why they have to include only the easy mode and neglect the people who actually have brains. So, why couldn´t they make like three modes: easy, normal, illogical? Idiots could play it in the normal mode and still feel good about themselves since they are not stupid. Kids could play the easy mode and enjoy the story aspect of the game. Hardcore gamers would be stuck in the first room until the next episode comes out.
Why can´t you please everyone? Why do you just have to please the people with no time, no brains or no interest in adventure gaming? That puzzles me and costs you (at least my) money. I don´t understand why the hell do you have to make nice cool and all in all good but too easy of a game when you could a perfect game that suits yeveryone. Or maybe TellTale is full of those dudes who actually doesn´t have brain and can´t figure out how to make it work out.
You probably noticed that I kinda provocated and exaggerated but I didn´t lie. So, don´t take that too seriously and personally. I am actually a laid back and humorous guy and I usually don´t want to offend anyone.
I think Max actually does give out hints throughout Culture Shock, but I'm not entirely sure. Gives me a reason to replay it to find out.
Have you actually played the game before going on such a long tirade about the puzzles? If so, could you explain how the Sybil-involved (trying to be as spoiler-free as possible) puzzles could be solved by someone without brains? I felt that those puzzles were pretty brilliantly designed.
I thought the puzzle difficulty was pretty spot on, and yes, I did have a few head rubbing moments ( more specifically, how to nab Whizzer and Specs, and how to beat Culture ). At those points, I began thinking out loud, and I pretty much said the answer to myself:
"I wonder if Whizzer can steal the cheese for me? I'm way too slow."
"I haven't used this bowling ball yet, I wonder if I can drop it on someone, or otherwise cause bodily harm upon someone I don't know?"
"Alright, Culture, if you're gonna act like I little kid, so am I!"
And when those moments clicked into puzzle solving action, I was positively orgasmic with childish glee. Whizzer couldn't steal the cheese for me, Sam and Max follow prior history by injuring other people by throwing things out their window, and being childish does indeed pay off. It was Orcam's Razor, Sam and Max style, meaning a short, violent, squiggly line was the shortest path between two points. It wasn't the most logical of solutions, it was more like "what do I really want to do with this item".
I'm not a big fan of puzzles for the sake of puzzles in adventure games. If I really want a brain-hurting puzzles that makes me want to purge the gene pool of my neighborhood, I'll play the Resident Evil games. Push the statue on the pedestal to get the gem, place the gem in the eye of another statue and get the key that falls out of its mouth, then unlock the swinging pendulim treasure box statue that's in the middle of a room full of flame throwing statues, which is actually part of the scaffolding of another larger statue, which contains a save game ink cartridge, but you'll get that after a few more statue puzzles and flame throwing statues, intermixed with the evil undead.
No thank you, puzzles compliment the story, not dictate it. And so far, the puzzles are a compliment to the game. I hope it stays that way. And the best thing I can say is I'm looking forward to new puzzles with Sam and Max, soonish.
Kunkku-Antti:
I'm still not sure if you're serious or joking, but for the sake of this reply, I'll assume you were serious.
I recommend you actually play the game before you start hating it. You'll find out the following:
1) The puzzles are magnificent. They are exactly the kind of puzzles that you can solve just by sitting and thinking for a moment, without combinatorically trying every possible thing in the game. They do require you to think and are very rewarding to solve.
2) Except for being logical and not combinatorical, the other reason that people say the game is "easy" is that it's small. There are only about 5 rooms to explore. If you're smart and have some adventuring experience, you can finish it in about 3-6 hours (For me it took about 4) but those would be really fun 3-6 hours! And it costs you about the same as a cheap meal at a restaurant.
3) I think the episodes model is good for all casual gamers and not just for "business men" as you call them. (Actually, Telltale didn't mean "business men" but most adults, which, as you may or may not know, have jobs which take up a significant chunk of their free time.) Anyway, when you buy a regular game, you play it for about 20 hours to finish, which would probably take you about a week or even less, and that's it - no more game. Here, you get a small game which takes 3-6 hours, you finish it, a week and a half later - you get another video advancing the plot, a week and a half later - another one, and in one more week - you get another game to play! This deal lasts for about 6 months. I think this gaming model is great for everyone, but that's my opinion.
Firstly, hey! Welcome to the forums. Anyway, to get on with my rant.
I think the idea here is quality over quantity. Yes, this game was quite short. Yes, some of the puzzles were a breeze. No, these games are NOT aimed at business types and simpletons.
If you ignore the game just because it's easy, I'm disappointed. The art, gameplay and sound/music are superb. If it's short, that's because it's part 1 of 6. Give TTG some time and when the rest of the series comes out you'll have a long Sam and Max experience (averaging out the full season as about the same length and price as a normal off the shelf game).
The product is far from shitty. The puzzles are just somewhat few and easy for those of us who've spent the last few years breezing through classic adventures and have grown used to adventures. That's not to say they're excessively easy, they're just designed logically and everything reacts in much the way you'd think it would. For anyone with experience or who's used to thinking about these kinds of puzzles you'll probably be able to get through with little trouble.
There are a few issues (just about every magazine and website I've read which reviews it complains about how the right mouse button isn't used and how everything only requires the one button to play) but nonetheless, it's a fantastic product that (if you really are a true fan of Sam and Max) you will enjoy. Trust me, it's quite short and will require little hardcore thinking, but it definitely lives up to the license.
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was kinda serious but I didn´t really mean to be malevolent. So, it´s not like a "fuck you" but rather some bitching, and I really appreciate TellTale for employing Steve P. and co. to make a S&M game.
You guys brought up the episode-issue. Actually, I don´t have a problem with that. It is good for the company since they have a steady income during the production and they don´t have to invest in a full game before making it available to the public, therefore it´s not as risky to make a game so we will probably get a product (not a cancellation). Also, I like the idea from gamers point of view. Like someone said, it´s kinda like a prolonged experience. Gamers are probably left hungry after finishing an episode and they want to play the next game, I like that alot. It´s like getting laid six times in half a year, rather than getting laid six times in a week and then having to jerk off for a while after that.
I got kinda scared though when I read the opinions of the gamers. That´s why I wanted to express my opinion. I don´t think it would be too hard to please both the hardcore gamers and newcomers and dudes who don´t like to solve puzzles. It just requires a little bit of more of an effort and imagination. I am pretty sure that the guys at Telltale could do that and I hope they will. I wouldn´t want to see the hardcore gamers leave the franchise just because they think it doesn´t match their wits.
OK, I lied a little, I will buy the game, after all I have been waiting for this for a long time and I almost came into my pants when I heard about Telltale´s effort and I hear it´s a good product. I wished though that it was perfect.
Anyway, it´s just the episode one and I´m sure I´ll enjoy it, even if there weren´t any supermegahard puzzles. Hopefully Telltale can please everyone with their future episodes.
Like the rest of you, I've been eagerly waiting for this game. HTR is probably the best crafted, most entertaining point-n-clicker in the history of the genre (that didn't involve Al Lowe ).
Yes, Culture Shock was easy but that doesn't bother me in the slightest. It gave me a chance to re-acquaint myself with the mindset of this genre so that as future episodes come out (which I suspect will be more difficult as they go, no?) I'm ready.
I go to play a game, I expect to be entertained. If I want copious amounts of stress, hell, that's why I have a job. Much thanks to Telltale for a completely entertaining game that stayed true to Steve Purcell's characters. I'm looking forward to replaying and looking for Emily's easter eggs and can't wait for episode 2!
See, one thing I've noticed is that an integral part of Sam & Max is their weirdness... Both games had this: they just expressed it differently.
In Hit the Road (which I just finished, by the way) the PUZZLES were extremely weird. This made some people very happy, others very mad.
On the other hand, in Culture Shock, the puzzles were relatively straightforward:
drop the bowling ball on Spec's head, for instance
. However, this was made up for by the extremely weird DIALOGUE, which I find Hit the Road was really lacking in, IMO.
So the question you have to ask yourself, really, is whether you are here for the hard and weird puzzles (which may not return), or the weird dialogue in general, the story, and the plot?
Hmm... I agree that some of the puzzles were a bit too obvious. Like the one with the light switch. There were a few that weren't so easy though. But nothing that really gave me trouble.
I think, though, that the whole problem of the game is that it's kinda short. But that's just me.
12 years? But Hit the Road wasn't out till 1993! XD
Oh, wait, that's already 13 years ago, ain't it? ... Yes, okay, I guess you're right there.
Still... I'd be happier if they put all six games together in one big box, and then sell that in the STORES, instead of forcing people to download.
(more importantly, also in European stores. Importing from America is such a hassle... ~_~)
Well, it´s not like this company is some humongous almighty corporation with endless supply of money and piles of dollars. It´s already an investment to make a game, if they had to invest a great amount of dollars to actually print, ship and do all those things that have to be done to get a game into the stores, they´d have to invest even more. Sure, the game could be on the shelf, for a month, then it would pretty much disappear. I´d say it´s not worth it at the moment.
12 years? But Hit the Road wasn't out till 1993! XD
Oh, wait, that's already 13 years ago, ain't it? ... Yes, okay, I guess you're right there.
Still... I'd be happier if they put all six games together in one big box, and then sell that in the STORES, instead of forcing people to download.
(more importantly, also in European stores. Importing from America is such a hassle... ~_~)
Where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:
Seriously people, the games will be available in a box when the season ends. The episodic approach is being used mostly because it makes for an interesting way to experience games. And importing from America to NZ is a lot more trouble than to Europe! Most sites tell me NZ doesn't exist!
Seriously people, the games will be available in a box when the season ends. The episodic approach is being used mostly because it makes for an interesting way to experience games.
Really? Thank the heavens. Now I can sleep easy at night. ^_^
(I'm serious. I have nightmares about never seeing the game in stores. Nightmares involving heads in ceiling fans.)
I have to agree with the OP. I was disappointed in how easy Sam and Max was.
I remember HtR very fondly. I solved it in cooperation with a friend of mine when we were both barely pubescent, and the challenge level was perfect. A little collaboration helped us through the hard spots.
Please turn up the difficulty factor in the next episodes; I'm hoping episode one was just a warm up!
That´s not true, at least in my case. I´ve played a couple of old LA games just a little while ago for the first time. Actually, they felt quite hard even though I played other LA adventure games as a kid. So, even though I had already experience in that kind of games, the ones that I played for the first time felt hard. On the other hand, it seems logical that adventure games become easier through experience. But as I see it, the games were actually harder in the golden adventure era.
I bought that freaking season and found it to be a good game. I liked the dialogue especially. Sadly my fears became reality. It was too easy. The puzzles were logical and all and kudos for that. I noticed that indeed Max gives hints if you ask him about things that are going on in the game. That´s still not quite what I had in mind when I talked about that hint system thingamabob. I´d rather see a game with a lot harder puzzles and hints that would get more and more obvious . Hardcore gamers would go on their own and others would ask Max for clues. Quite like it is now, but not exactly.
I liked how the puzzles were kind of crazy and had a new feeling to them. Dream sequences and psychoanalysis...
That´s not true, at least in my case. I´ve played a couple of old LA games just a little while ago for the first time. Actually, they felt quite hard even though I played other LA adventure games as a kid. So, even though I had already experience in that kind of games, the ones that I played for the first time felt hard. On the other hand, it seems logical that adventure games become easier through experience. But as I see it, the games were actually harder in the golden adventure era.
I bought that freaking season and found it to be a good game. I liked the dialogue especially. Sadly my fears became reality. It was too easy. The puzzles were logical and all and kudos for that. I noticed that indeed Max gives hints if you ask him about things that are going on in the game. That´s still not quite what I had in mind when I talked about that hint system thingamabob. I´d rather see a game with a lot harder puzzles and hints that would get more and more obvious . Hardcore gamers would go on their own and others would ask Max for clues. Quite like it is now, but not exactly.
I liked how the puzzles were kind of crazy and had a new feeling to them. Dream sequences and psychoanalysis...
Well done for buying the game konkku. I agree about the difficulty.. I hope the future episodes are a lot more challenging.. I know Telltale does respond to customer feedback. They made a heap of changes in their bone games after peoples response and it improved immensely.. So i'm sure they are listening...
Comments
Why not actually take the time to, y'know, play the game before so summarily dismissing it?
One thing I didn't like about the first game though was the restrictions on exploring, I always wished I could explore or play with more of the various objects in the environment, sam always seems to follow a very linear path in his walking. Now with the great graphics, I even hoped more I could explore a little more, but Sam is still very restricted in where he can walk.
Also, more things like the whack-a-mole game and gator golf (which are interactive) would really add to the replay value. For example a target range that has a puzzle to solve the first time, but you can revisit later on to try and get a high score. And a little more room to walk around in the town with more clickables, possibly a minigame or two, would really enhance the experience.
Meh. It's been done.
Interesting idea! It is certainly one of our goals at Telltale to make puzzles and activities that are appropriate for the characters in the story. Every action helps to define a character, even (and especially) when those actions are directed by the player.
I totally agree. I'm very much in favor of making puzzle solutions encourage you to think like the character, but ruling out incorrect puzzle solutions due to character limitations (while very possible), can be much trickier to pull off. If I can see clearly that a solution ought to work, but my character refuses to do it for some unknown reason, it can be very frustrating.
Now, if my character refuses to do something for a KNOWN reason (such as an established chair-phobia), then certainly, that can serve to give puzzles an added twist or challenge, as well as deepen the character. But even that's tricky to get right. I don't think anyone actually wants to have a deadly fear of chairs, so if you make a game about a character who does, you'd better be sure that this added difficulty won't be painful or tiresome (at least not without a meaningful reward).
Some contemporary interactive fiction (i.e. text games) explore this area more thoroughly than any commercial games I know. If you don't mind typing, you might try checking out Rameses by Stephen Bond. It's not quite a game in the usual sense, and it should only take about an hour to finish, but it deals with some interesting issues of character "idiosyncrasies".
I'd say you're right on both counts. Overall, though, most games seem to have little concern for the identity of the protagonists. Adventure game characters typically are given all manner of MacGyver-esque activities to puzzle over, regardless of who they are and how they would actually go about solving problems.
This is something we're working on at Telltale, but it's pretty difficult to come up with a range of challenges that consistently deepen a specific character. You and I, for example, might be very different people, but we'd probably solve many problems the same way. Not every challenge can be solved in a very character-specific way, but we do try to make sure you never have to do something quite out-of-character.
By the way, this sort of thinking extends to non-player characters and aspects of the world as well. Our goal is to make puzzles whose solutions rely on the most entertaining and interesting aspects of the other characters and environment. Thus, to proceed in the story, you have to have experienced and appreciated the most fun things the game world has to offer.
Yes, establishing the characters' approaches to problems is very important to us. Sometimes it may be appropriate for the characters to comment directly on the problem at hand, but even more generally, we want their outlook and personality to be shown in everything they do. I hope that when you play Sam & Max, for example, you really get a feel for just how "freelance" their policework is, and use that to inform your thought process when solving the puzzles.
Good thoughts, thanks!
Ha! I got an error message of accusing my post of being too short!
I remeber playing Myst when I was around eleven years old and just wondering around aimlessly for hours and hours untill I figured that by moving things I could get places and to things...without knowing exactly why.
Placing more direction, and getting people into the mind-state of trying to accomplsih somthing with the information that is given is a great introduction into the genre for people who would probably wander around aimlessly otherwise.
My hope is that these "compass pointers" will gradually be taken away from the series to allow the gamer to think for his/her self. Instead of "I have to set the cow on fire to get it out of the way" you can think "hmm...i can't go any farther. maybe this cow is in the way. What do i have to get rid of this cow?...ah fire might work!"
All in all I retract my aggressive statements with the understanding that this is just the beginning and a quite succesfull introduction into the genre that gets the atmosphere and the humor of Sam and Max spot on.
Oh man I had exactly the same experience as you all those years ago
It's especially silly because of the way the camera keeps panning to and from the office window and graffiti piece every single time you leave. Why not put a big neon sign next to it saying "Heavy Object Dropping Location HERE ->"?
Another example: the anti-hypnotizing helmet. This would be a perfect occasion for letting the player do some creative thinking, for example by having to look at the diagram and having to substitute the prescribed parts for equivalents from the game environment. For example, if the diagram showed a regular antenna, we could logically deduce that the coathanger-antenna from the TV would work as well (especially if we see Sam 'adjusting the reception' earlier in the game). And if a metal helmet is needed, we could realize that a collander could work too.
Such puzzles are easy to do, and you can provide additional hints as you go. For example, looking at a big pile of junk in an alley, you could get the following responses if you keep trying various incorrect objects:
- "Hmm... I wonder if there's something I could use here for the helmet?"
- "No, that doesn't work."
- "I don't think that's appropriate."
- "I think the diagram prescribes something made out of metal."
- "No, that's too fat. I need something thinner."
- "I need something to double as an *antenna*"
etc.I don't think the fact that people post "I'm stuck" threads here should be interpreted that the difficulty is too high or 'just right'. There will always be people who will be too lazy to do some thinking and want to continue with the game right now instead of trying various options, or turning off the game and coming back later with a fresh mind. Just like there will always be really smart people who will say it is too easy.
As a player of many adventure games, I think the balance is clearly too far on the 'easy' side.
Ive always believed Sam and Max's world to be as far detatched from sense as it is possible to be.
If I was to compare the games to old fashioned puzzles.
Hit The Road - Crossword + Sudoku
Culture Shock - Join the dots
Without tough puzzles to solve CS just didnt feel very.... rewarding.
When you managed to surpass a tricky problem in HTR there was a huge sense of satisfaction which I just didnt get from CS.
God yes. I love those types of puzzles, like making the battery in DOTT. Especially when you have to use such silly objects that the invention comes out all funky-looking in the end. If the plans had shown some futuristic space-agey helmet and then I'D come up with using a coathanger and a collander, I would have found it very amusing. Bosco? Eh, we'd already established that he made weird inventions out of household objects; the humour was diminished.
One puzzle I did think was made easier than it needed to be was the APD puzzle. I would've preferred if Sam didn't mention it to Sybil automatically. The list of symptoms and Max's hint about getting someone official to sign the form were enough. Maybe they were worried about people having to remember the symptoms. Perhaps some sort of inventory "Look At" button would solve that, provided Sam took one of those APD papers with him.
Now of course, the puzzle would certainly have been very difficult that way, but if they're worried about making a puzzle too difficult, they can always include a Hint function. (Did they? I never looked for one.)
I find TellTale´s business concept (a smaller company that sells games via internet) absolutely fantastic, but on the other hand, I feel disappointed in them because they are trying to please those (few?) business guys who don´t have time to play a game so games have to be made shorter, faster and easier to please them, which, by the way, is pretty fucking stupid. I am a fan of Sam and Max but it´s not like I will accept and buy a shitty product, (like someone said) that isn´t even targeted for me. I know, I know it´s all about the money and those (numerous?) busy business guys are the ones who are willing to buy those nice little entertainment packages which are as challenging as a colouring book for the kids. If that´s your market, then fine, you can forget my money.
I don´t understand what is the freaking problem with you guys. It would have been easy as hell to make hard puzzles that would have pleased the hardcore audience and still make the game playable for idiots and at the same time it would have even increased the game´s replayability. You know, you have that cute little bunny that can talk. Why the hell couldn´t he give hints and maybe even spell out solutions to the most stupidest of the players? If that was done in a humorous manner even the hardcore gamers could have played the game again asking tips from Max just to check out the fun stuff. The greatest thing of all would have been that asking tips from Max could have been optional and maybe not even necessary when the player could figure out the puzzle on his own.
What comes to mega monkey modes and easy modes, well I once read an argument that players don´t want to feel stupid and therefore it wouldn´t be too great to add an easy mode and a mega hard normal mega monkey mode. That´s why they have to include only the easy mode and neglect the people who actually have brains. So, why couldn´t they make like three modes: easy, normal, illogical? Idiots could play it in the normal mode and still feel good about themselves since they are not stupid. Kids could play the easy mode and enjoy the story aspect of the game. Hardcore gamers would be stuck in the first room until the next episode comes out.
Why can´t you please everyone? Why do you just have to please the people with no time, no brains or no interest in adventure gaming? That puzzles me and costs you (at least my) money. I don´t understand why the hell do you have to make nice cool and all in all good but too easy of a game when you could a perfect game that suits yeveryone. Or maybe TellTale is full of those dudes who actually doesn´t have brain and can´t figure out how to make it work out.
You probably noticed that I kinda provocated and exaggerated but I didn´t lie. So, don´t take that too seriously and personally. I am actually a laid back and humorous guy and I usually don´t want to offend anyone.
I think Max actually does give out hints throughout Culture Shock, but I'm not entirely sure. Gives me a reason to replay it to find out.
Have you actually played the game before going on such a long tirade about the puzzles? If so, could you explain how the Sybil-involved (trying to be as spoiler-free as possible) puzzles could be solved by someone without brains? I felt that those puzzles were pretty brilliantly designed.
"I wonder if Whizzer can steal the cheese for me? I'm way too slow."
"I haven't used this bowling ball yet, I wonder if I can drop it on someone, or otherwise cause bodily harm upon someone I don't know?"
"Alright, Culture, if you're gonna act like I little kid, so am I!"
And when those moments clicked into puzzle solving action, I was positively orgasmic with childish glee. Whizzer couldn't steal the cheese for me, Sam and Max follow prior history by injuring other people by throwing things out their window, and being childish does indeed pay off. It was Orcam's Razor, Sam and Max style, meaning a short, violent, squiggly line was the shortest path between two points. It wasn't the most logical of solutions, it was more like "what do I really want to do with this item".
I'm not a big fan of puzzles for the sake of puzzles in adventure games. If I really want a brain-hurting puzzles that makes me want to purge the gene pool of my neighborhood, I'll play the Resident Evil games. Push the statue on the pedestal to get the gem, place the gem in the eye of another statue and get the key that falls out of its mouth, then unlock the swinging pendulim treasure box statue that's in the middle of a room full of flame throwing statues, which is actually part of the scaffolding of another larger statue, which contains a save game ink cartridge, but you'll get that after a few more statue puzzles and flame throwing statues, intermixed with the evil undead.
No thank you, puzzles compliment the story, not dictate it. And so far, the puzzles are a compliment to the game. I hope it stays that way. And the best thing I can say is I'm looking forward to new puzzles with Sam and Max, soonish.
I'm still not sure if you're serious or joking, but for the sake of this reply, I'll assume you were serious.
I recommend you actually play the game before you start hating it. You'll find out the following:
1) The puzzles are magnificent. They are exactly the kind of puzzles that you can solve just by sitting and thinking for a moment, without combinatorically trying every possible thing in the game. They do require you to think and are very rewarding to solve.
2) Except for being logical and not combinatorical, the other reason that people say the game is "easy" is that it's small. There are only about 5 rooms to explore. If you're smart and have some adventuring experience, you can finish it in about 3-6 hours (For me it took about 4) but those would be really fun 3-6 hours! And it costs you about the same as a cheap meal at a restaurant.
3) I think the episodes model is good for all casual gamers and not just for "business men" as you call them. (Actually, Telltale didn't mean "business men" but most adults, which, as you may or may not know, have jobs which take up a significant chunk of their free time.) Anyway, when you buy a regular game, you play it for about 20 hours to finish, which would probably take you about a week or even less, and that's it - no more game. Here, you get a small game which takes 3-6 hours, you finish it, a week and a half later - you get another video advancing the plot, a week and a half later - another one, and in one more week - you get another game to play! This deal lasts for about 6 months. I think this gaming model is great for everyone, but that's my opinion.
Firstly, hey! Welcome to the forums. Anyway, to get on with my rant.
I think the idea here is quality over quantity. Yes, this game was quite short. Yes, some of the puzzles were a breeze. No, these games are NOT aimed at business types and simpletons.
If you ignore the game just because it's easy, I'm disappointed. The art, gameplay and sound/music are superb. If it's short, that's because it's part 1 of 6. Give TTG some time and when the rest of the series comes out you'll have a long Sam and Max experience (averaging out the full season as about the same length and price as a normal off the shelf game).
The product is far from shitty. The puzzles are just somewhat few and easy for those of us who've spent the last few years breezing through classic adventures and have grown used to adventures. That's not to say they're excessively easy, they're just designed logically and everything reacts in much the way you'd think it would. For anyone with experience or who's used to thinking about these kinds of puzzles you'll probably be able to get through with little trouble.
There are a few issues (just about every magazine and website I've read which reviews it complains about how the right mouse button isn't used and how everything only requires the one button to play) but nonetheless, it's a fantastic product that (if you really are a true fan of Sam and Max) you will enjoy. Trust me, it's quite short and will require little hardcore thinking, but it definitely lives up to the license.
You guys brought up the episode-issue. Actually, I don´t have a problem with that. It is good for the company since they have a steady income during the production and they don´t have to invest in a full game before making it available to the public, therefore it´s not as risky to make a game so we will probably get a product (not a cancellation). Also, I like the idea from gamers point of view. Like someone said, it´s kinda like a prolonged experience. Gamers are probably left hungry after finishing an episode and they want to play the next game, I like that alot. It´s like getting laid six times in half a year, rather than getting laid six times in a week and then having to jerk off for a while after that.
I got kinda scared though when I read the opinions of the gamers. That´s why I wanted to express my opinion. I don´t think it would be too hard to please both the hardcore gamers and newcomers and dudes who don´t like to solve puzzles. It just requires a little bit of more of an effort and imagination. I am pretty sure that the guys at Telltale could do that and I hope they will. I wouldn´t want to see the hardcore gamers leave the franchise just because they think it doesn´t match their wits.
OK, I lied a little, I will buy the game, after all I have been waiting for this for a long time and I almost came into my pants when I heard about Telltale´s effort and I hear it´s a good product. I wished though that it was perfect.
Anyway, it´s just the episode one and I´m sure I´ll enjoy it, even if there weren´t any supermegahard puzzles. Hopefully Telltale can please everyone with their future episodes.
Man, NOW I'm scared. What do you do when you're angry FOR REAL?
Is the too easy discussion still going on?
I learnt what the word troll meant yesterday. I feel so stupid all this time I thought it just meant being an actual troll.
Like the rest of you, I've been eagerly waiting for this game. HTR is probably the best crafted, most entertaining point-n-clicker in the history of the genre (that didn't involve Al Lowe
Yes, Culture Shock was easy but that doesn't bother me in the slightest. It gave me a chance to re-acquaint myself with the mindset of this genre so that as future episodes come out (which I suspect will be more difficult as they go, no?) I'm ready.
I go to play a game, I expect to be entertained. If I want copious amounts of stress, hell, that's why I have a job. Much thanks to Telltale for a completely entertaining game that stayed true to Steve Purcell's characters. I'm looking forward to replaying and looking for Emily's easter eggs and can't wait for episode 2!
DM
Well, I was just trying to say that even though I expressed myself strongly I am not as mad and angry as I may seem to be.
On the other hand, maybe my relaxed state isn´t that relaxed after all, as I seem to think. I am almost never angry for real.
I haven´t played the game, but it doesn´t matter. I read people´s comments that the game is too easy and based my opinions and views on that.
In Hit the Road (which I just finished, by the way) the PUZZLES were extremely weird. This made some people very happy, others very mad.
On the other hand, in Culture Shock, the puzzles were relatively straightforward:
So the question you have to ask yourself, really, is whether you are here for the hard and weird puzzles (which may not return), or the weird dialogue in general, the story, and the plot?
I think, though, that the whole problem of the game is that it's kinda short. But that's just me.
Oh, wait, that's already 13 years ago, ain't it? ... Yes, okay, I guess you're right there.
Still... I'd be happier if they put all six games together in one big box, and then sell that in the STORES, instead of forcing people to download.
(more importantly, also in European stores. Importing from America is such a hassle... ~_~)
Where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:
Seriously people, the games will be available in a box when the season ends. The episodic approach is being used mostly because it makes for an interesting way to experience games. And importing from America to NZ is a lot more trouble than to Europe! Most sites tell me NZ doesn't exist!
Really? Thank the heavens. Now I can sleep easy at night. ^_^
(I'm serious. I have nightmares about never seeing the game in stores. Nightmares involving heads in ceiling fans.)
I remember HtR very fondly. I solved it in cooperation with a friend of mine when we were both barely pubescent, and the challenge level was perfect. A little collaboration helped us through the hard spots.
Please turn up the difficulty factor in the next episodes; I'm hoping episode one was just a warm up!
I bought that freaking season and found it to be a good game. I liked the dialogue especially. Sadly my fears became reality. It was too easy. The puzzles were logical and all and kudos for that. I noticed that indeed Max gives hints if you ask him about things that are going on in the game. That´s still not quite what I had in mind when I talked about that hint system thingamabob. I´d rather see a game with a lot harder puzzles and hints that would get more and more obvious . Hardcore gamers would go on their own and others would ask Max for clues. Quite like it is now, but not exactly.
I liked how the puzzles were kind of crazy and had a new feeling to them. Dream sequences and psychoanalysis...
Well done for buying the game konkku. I agree about the difficulty.. I hope the future episodes are a lot more challenging.. I know Telltale does respond to customer feedback. They made a heap of changes in their bone games after peoples response and it improved immensely.. So i'm sure they are listening...