Yes. The writers cared about Ben as a character, making even his aborted redemption in Episode 5 feel appropriate.
But if you notice, Season 2's writers seem to think Clementine hated Ben too. You have the chance to disdainfully compare Nick to Ben, and then Clementine has no chance to disagree with Kenny for calling him a "shit-bird".
While I always found it more satisfying to save Ben, I still appreciated the amount of variance the dialogue could have with either outcome.… more
If you drop Ben you have to deal with Clementine's reaction to it, and even then, you're given a chance to explain why you did it. You're able to explain that Ben bravely asked you to leave him so that the rest of the group could escape, or you can bluntly state that risking the entire group wasn't worth the life of one person. It was the same with the station-wagon choice, or the fate of the Saint Johns; the best moral choices are the ones that give both sides credence and impact, even if the ultimate outcome of the plot is the same. Sadly, I didn't get that feeling with saving Nick and Sarah, as they're both written off and forgotten with hardly a second mention.
I disagree. Opinions on their own do not deserve respect for being opinions. They deserve acknowledgment that they are opinions and nothing more. Respect or equally valid disrespect comes afterwards. Some people have "opinions" that some people in this world are worth less than others in real life, not in a game, and their "opinions" would be rightfully shot the hell down.
But okay, maybe that's the extreme kind of opinion. For a more closer to home example, the opinion that there is "nothing wrong" with Carver, which I remember you positing after episode 3 and is kind of the point of view being communicated by that current Carver thread, is the kind of thing where one begins to wonder just what kind of reality the opinion in question is coming from.
Jane is a bitch, a selfish one. I wish that saving sarah in the balcony actually ended up killing jane. She cared about nobody and assumed t… moreoo much. She also left the group and just thought about herself.
Maybe relevant but you should take a look at this good stuff. Both deaths were unnecessary and I wished atleast one of them could've survived until season 3.
Also the two staff actually said a lot of people in the office were excited to kill off sarah. So sad, maybe that's why she ended up dying the way she did and saving her the first time meant nothing. This should tell us a lot about telltale game staff.
This entire season just felt like we had no choices. Everything led to the same result: let them die now or let them die a tiny bit later. Everything was underwhelming. Characters were either barely fleshed out before they were gone, or were fleshed out to the point you thought it was leading up to something big for them and then they die. I don't really follow who writes what, but the first season had a drastically better writing team than this one.
Exactly, I've thought up quite a few scenarios that would be way better than what we were given. I think most people could do better, as long as they tried.
Can telltale PLEASE hire writers that care about these characters and series rather than just money? If it were up to me, I could've written these episodes way better than these "professional writers".
It makes me sick when people say that because Sarah had anxiety she had become a great liability and that there was no point in even trying to save her because she is the type of person who wouldn't be able to survive the apocalypse, well of course she won't survive if no one will help her! If Sarah didn't have anxiety and she wasn't in that position, then people would say different...
It’s sort of sad to see so much vitriol towards Sarah from fans of the series. It’s just a reflection of how society in general views people with mental illness.
Exactly. I can go on a long spiel about the bias towards angry white men and why that means characters like Kenny get so much defense, and about how Strong Female Characters can only be as de-feminized as Jane, but I don't have the energy for that.
Part of my disappointment is that Season 1 allowed for players to empathize with a black man and see him as a sensitive, heroic figure even if he starts off in a police car. I was hoping the second Season would continue this theme of empathizing with minorities by having us focus on the struggles of a little girl - but instead, we're forced to agree with the cruel mindsets of murderers, thieves and psychotics.
Interesting comment I read on Youtube:
It’s sort of sad to see so much vitriol towards Sarah from fans of the series. It’s just a reflection of how society in general views people with mental illness.
Yeah Telltale I'm glad that me and other anxiety-suffering autistic teens deserve to die horribly if we were ever in a similar situation because we're useless and will never change, that's a really great message you're sending. Oh, and then you just laugh and laugh and laugh as that IGN guy pretty much dances on Sarah's grave because of her disability, absolute comedy gold! I honestly can't believe this crap even happened.
Also for those that say Sarah deserved to die because she endangered the group, does that mean Lee should have kicked out/killed Clem when she couldn't pull the trigger to save him from a walker? Or when she followed Lee to the boats when told not to leave the mansion? When she left said mansion despite not being allowed to and found her way into the shed? How about the fact that she was feeding the Stranger information ever since the motor inn, resulting in her being taken, Ben and Kenny supposedly dying and Lee being bitten? Should Lee have just put a bullet between her eyes or left her to the walkers when he arrived at the Marsh House? Yeah, didn't think so.
And don't even get me started on how much of a liability Kenny is, both in season 1 and 2.
I just want to reiterate that when I said I believe Sarah and Nick are some of the strongest characters in the season, I meant what I said. And if you're like them, you're a very strong person too. Don't allow narratives like this to make you feel like a lesser or a worthless person, because you aren't.
You are a capable, deserving individual, and you kick life's ass every day just being you!
This is one of the many reasons I despise Greg Miller from within the darkest depths of my heart. That man goes out of his way to criticize characters, calling them annoying, stupid and even useless while those same words are the ones I could personally use to describe him. Because of Greg Miller I have stopped watching Playing Dead completely, because he just ruins it completely.
I've read it and I completely agree. How Greg Miller, Mark Darin, and Jason Latino talked about Sarah was shameful. Absolutely shameful. Spe… moreaking as an aspiring writer, I would always defend my character against someone like Greg Miller. They just laughed along with them. What kind of artists are they?
Damn, I'd write for them in a heartbeat. I found a ton of neat thematic elements and instances of possible foreshadowing they never actually bothered exploring. Felt like such a waste!
Can telltale PLEASE hire writers that care about these characters and series rather than just money? If it were up to me, I could've written these episodes way better than these "professional writers".
Even though it can be hard to believe at times, people with any kind of disability have to overcome so many different obstacles every single day. Their lives are often harder than other's and I have an immense amount of respect for these people, so seeing Telltale handling characters like Nick and Sarah so poorly leaves an intensely bad taste in my mouth.
First off, I don't think Telltale was literally saying or trying to convey that all disabled people are useless or deserve to die. I think it just happened Sarah was a disabled person who just died horribly. That's that. But here's how they could have easily done Nick and Sarah's death.
Sarah: If you bring Sarah with you, when the deck is about to collapse, Sarah notices Clementine is near the edge and will fall off. So as the deck collapses she pushes Clementine saying "Clementine! Move!" This causes Clementine to be on the side of the deck which doesn't collapse, yet Sarah collapses with the deck. Jane is pulled up by Luke, and Sarah will be trapped close to walkers. If you were friends with Sarah, she will say "Goodbye Clementine. You were the best friend ever."
If you weren't friends with Sarah she will say "Goodbye Clementine." The walkers will then devour her.
Nick: With Nick we could have found him crouched by the gate in Episode Four instead of dead. He tells you his shoulder has been bandaged, with medical supplies they found in the mobile home. He mentions Luke is there with Sarah now. He will instantly help you with the "puzzle" concerning how to distract the walkers. When you're being attacked by walkers he kicks the door in for you. When you have the choice of leaving Sarah or not, no matter what you choose Nick will get Sarah up on his shoulders and let Luke carry her up. Clementine goes and then Jane, Nick never makes it out in time. But tells Clementine before the walkers get him that she was great (if you went with Uncle Pete at the end of Episode 1/If you defended him at the bridge/Gave him the watch during Episode 2) or thanks her (if you went with Nick at the end of Episode 1).
The writing in wd s2 reminds me off that god awful heroes show.
Story arcs dropped outta nowhere, people being written out for no reason, people returning from the dead, characters acting illogical to forward the plot.
Great thread, but I was looking at the situation differently.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thing. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so precious, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
But that's not what some people are mad about, they're made about how Greg Miller completely trash talked Sarah's character, made her out to be a liability and proved himself as an ableist. And the exact Telltale staff, laughed with him. Not only laugh, but AGREE. That's the only thing I'm pissed off at Telltale for. Oh, and Nick dying offscreen. That was a total bitch.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thing. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so precious, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
This isn't what bothers me about Nick and Sarah's death, because Ben has the same kind of death and it is one of the most well-written ones in Season 1. Its because saving Nick amounts to nothing in the next two episodes but an off-screen death never really gets acknowledged by anyone.
My issue with Sarah ignoring how mean-spirited it is, is that saving her leads to a contrived death in the same episode that isn't acknowledged by anyone.
Great thread, but I was looking at the situation differently.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thi… moreng. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so precious, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
But that's not what some people are mad about, they're made about how Greg Miller completely trash talked Sarah's character, made her out to be a liability and proved himself as an ableist. And the exact Telltale staff, laughed with him. Not only laugh, but AGREE. That's the only thing I'm pissed off at Telltale for. Oh, and Nick dying offscreen. That was a total bitch.
Honestly, that's what I believed Jane was there for. To make us think like the people in Crawford and get rid of the people who were "bringing us down". I honestly did not like Jane because of that. Jane and Molly may be similar in past history and who they are (females and loners) but not the same in beliefs. I'm absolutely sure that Jane would've fit in just fine with the people in Crawford.
The "this is the apocalypse, things go fast, people just die" argument is indeed bullsh*t, even in the Walking Dead comics. Kirkman admitted in an interview that deaths weren't random, it was a rational processus "I can't do anything else with this character, I'll let him get bitten by a random crawling walker and focus on someone else". Meanwhile, Negan who should have been killed half a dozen times is still alive because his fascinating bastard aura gives him a diamond plot armor.
First off, I don't think Telltale was literally saying or trying to convey that all disabled people are useless or deserve to die. I think i… moret just happened Sarah was a disabled person who just died horribly. That's that. But here's how they could have easily done Nick and Sarah's death.
Sarah: If you bring Sarah with you, when the deck is about to collapse, Sarah notices Clementine is near the edge and will fall off. So as the deck collapses she pushes Clementine saying "Clementine! Move!" This causes Clementine to be on the side of the deck which doesn't collapse, yet Sarah collapses with the deck. Jane is pulled up by Luke, and Sarah will be trapped close to walkers. If you were friends with Sarah, she will say "Goodbye Clementine. You were the best friend ever."
If you weren't friends with Sarah she will say "Goodbye Clementine." The walkers will then devour her.
Nick: With Nick we could have found him crouched by the gate in Epis… [view original content]
I like what you wrote for Nick.
For Sarah I was expecting her to pick up the gun that was dropped on the deck after the Arvo thing. I know its a small thing but I feel like that is something that was maybe missed? (It seems odd how they camera focus on it falling on the deck but nothing happened with it as far as we seen. Or maybe I missed something related to it?)
First off, I don't think Telltale was literally saying or trying to convey that all disabled people are useless or deserve to die. I think i… moret just happened Sarah was a disabled person who just died horribly. That's that. But here's how they could have easily done Nick and Sarah's death.
Sarah: If you bring Sarah with you, when the deck is about to collapse, Sarah notices Clementine is near the edge and will fall off. So as the deck collapses she pushes Clementine saying "Clementine! Move!" This causes Clementine to be on the side of the deck which doesn't collapse, yet Sarah collapses with the deck. Jane is pulled up by Luke, and Sarah will be trapped close to walkers. If you were friends with Sarah, she will say "Goodbye Clementine. You were the best friend ever."
If you weren't friends with Sarah she will say "Goodbye Clementine." The walkers will then devour her.
Nick: With Nick we could have found him crouched by the gate in Epis… [view original content]
You know, it's really upsetting me how they just killed them just because they disliked their characters for who they were. When I write my stories I believe no matter how much I(or many) hated them I still try my absolute best to look for the potential they could possess. And lemme tell you one (NEGAN MODE)motherfucking shitting fucking fuckity dick crapping thing: THEY HAD A LOT OF POTENTIAL WASTED! Telltale, because of how they disliked them, completely ignored the potential they could possess. Both Nick and Sarah were some of the most realistic characters I've known! But Telltale practically had the Jane motive and killed them off from the story because they were just liabilities to the cast. Cuz they would slow down the group and story to them. Sarah had a lot of potential, she didn't need to be a badass. She could've been the peacemaker of the group, trying to help as best she can. And try to get the group out tough spots(say Sarah could find a way to distract walkers away from the deck while having Clem to watch her back). And Nick was just a ghost the entire fucking time after Ep2. It's sad... I remember one of the most important things Lee ever told Clem: "You hold onto that hope. It's the one thing that none of this can take away." and it feels like Telltale just spitted on Lee by putting Jane just to prove Sarah's an liability. That disabled people don't belong in this world, that Carver and Jane were right the whole time, that there is only room for badasses. Making it feel like Lee's words meant nothing: that there is no hope.
Heh I typed more than I wanted. Sorry if I went all over the place and might've went off-topic a bit. I tried to convey my thinking as best as I can. I'm just really frikkin pissed about the treatment of these characters.
Well, the interview confirmed that, at the very least, the writer and director for Amid The Ruins saw the characters more as tools than people that players had to feel an emotional connection to. "Let's kill off Kenny's girlfriend to make him feel bad. Let's kill off Nick because he's a loose end. Let's have players hit Sarah to help her because hurting disabled kids is awesome! Let's have Luke screw Jane because we need another reason to hate him!"
I said before that I was bothered by how the game forced you to hit Sarah in order to save her, and it turns out that the devs deliberately intended that because they thought it'd be amusing. It's a very pathetic kind of person who takes glee in hurting those weaker than them. I don't know if they were abused themselves, but it's not the kind of mindset that needs reinforcing here.
You know, it's really upsetting me how they just killed them just because they disliked their characters for who they were. When I write my … morestories I believe no matter how much I(or many) hated them I still try my absolute best to look for the potential they could possess. And lemme tell you one (NEGAN MODE)motherfucking shitting fucking fuckity dick crapping thing: THEY HAD A LOT OF POTENTIAL WASTED! Telltale, because of how they disliked them, completely ignored the potential they could possess. Both Nick and Sarah were some of the most realistic characters I've known! But Telltale practically had the Jane motive and killed them off from the story because they were just liabilities to the cast. Cuz they would slow down the group and story to them. Sarah had a lot of potential, she didn't need to be a badass. She could've been the peacemaker of the group, trying to help as best she can. And try to get the group out tough spots(say Sarah coul… [view original content]
Uh, no, we're meant to become Crawford if we WANT to.
I was never bothered by Sarah and Nick, I loved them both.
I understood that she had some issues, and that is no reason to hate her. It's like people are too dense to figure that she had a disability and her dad wasn't exactly helping her work around it, not that she was "stupid" because she wanted to.
In the end Sarah died in a freak accident, after all. Could have happened to any of them.
It makes me fear for how uninformed people are of mental issues in real life.
So what are the odds that episode 3 and 4 were rewritten from their original premise? Something seems off about both episodes and its not just the character deaths.
A lot of people figured out that she was 'off' in some way, and feared and hated her automatically because of that. It's an irrational response, and I was hoping the writers, at the very least, didn't believe in it.
But it turns out that they themselves endorse this kind of stigma towards mentally ill people, and my opinion of them's lowered immensely because of that. There's already enough immaturity in the gamer world and a lot of shitty attitudes perpetuated in media - now TWD is turning out to be little better than the likes of GTA in terms of world outlook. In a game that's ostensibly about the coming of age of a little girl and struggling to retain her humanity, it turns out that the writers themselves seem to lack empathy when it comes to vulnerable people.
Only edgy 'badasses' thrive in videogame world, and if you're weak you deserve to die.
Uh, no, we're meant to become Crawford if we WANT to.
I was never bothered by Sarah and Nick, I loved them both.
I understood that she… more had some issues, and that is no reason to hate her. It's like people are too dense to figure that she had a disability and her dad wasn't exactly helping her work around it, not that she was "stupid" because she wanted to.
In the end Sarah died in a freak accident, after all. Could have happened to any of them.
It makes me fear for how uninformed people are of mental issues in real life.
This is an incredible representation of everything I'm feeling inside. I love this. It's so terrible that they were basically thrown aside like trash, almost. It doesn't make sense. It confuses me and makes me sad.
Yeah I don't understand how people enjoy watching a child suffer like that and slapping her just for the hell off it. Seriously?! WHAT THE FUCK?! I know Clem would NEVER have done that to Sarah!
At least I try to at the very least to make my characters last and try to make them feel realistic. I may have failed before but I'm REALLY trying in my comic. God all this bullshit makes me want to write TWD Season 3 just to make things right! I would even do it for FREE if I have to! All I want to do is make the game what it once was and Telltale just doesn't seem to care! I respected them a lot, but after learning the truth more and more, I am disappointed beyond belief.
Well, the interview confirmed that, at the very least, the writer and director for Amid The Ruins saw the characters more as tools than peop… morele that players had to feel an emotional connection to. "Let's kill off Kenny's girlfriend to make him feel bad. Let's kill off Nick because he's a loose end. Let's have players hit Sarah to help her because hurting disabled kids is awesome! Let's have Luke screw Jane because we need another reason to hate him!"
I said before that I was bothered by how the game forced you to hit Sarah in order to save her, and it turns out that the devs deliberately intended that because they thought it'd be amusing. It's a very pathetic kind of person who takes glee in hurting those weaker than them. I don't know if they were abused themselves, but it's not the kind of mindset that needs reinforcing here.
Amid The Ruins really seemed to be more about an actual 'civil war' - the menu screen music had this ominous war horn playing, and the shadowy figures led me to believe we'd be seeing a battle between a group at Parker's Run and the remnants of Carver's group. What we got instead was a little...pathetic.
Hell, the "All Fall Down" attack at the observation deck isn't even that menacing or dangerous. The achievement seemed bleak because of its name and its description of how you "survived the attack", yet it turns out that nobody important to the plot really got hurt in that scene. The only person who died in that attack was Sarah, and only because of bad writing. If I were to write the scene, most of the cast would have got killed off then and there due to a combination of human and zombie attackers.
So what are the odds that episode 3 and 4 were rewritten from their original premise? Something seems off about both episodes and its not just the character deaths.
Not even the menu screens for the episodes really line up. Episode 3 has what looks Rebecca and Clem in danger and gives the implication that maybe Rebecca will give birth in this episode. Which doesn't happen of course. Amid the Ruins has Clem rubbing blood on her face which happens at the end of Episode 3 and has at least one 400 days character in shadows who never shows up in the actual episode. So its either a fake out or TTG decided to change the story they originally had planned. Which would explain the rushed deaths of Carver, Nick, Sarita, and Sarah
Amid The Ruins really seemed to be more about an actual 'civil war' - the menu screen music had this ominous war horn playing, and the shado… morewy figures led me to believe we'd be seeing a battle between a group at Parker's Run and the remnants of Carver's group. What we got instead was a little...pathetic.
Hell, the "All Fall Down" attack at the observation deck isn't even that menacing or dangerous. The achievement seemed bleak because of its name and its description of how you "survived the attack", yet it turns out that nobody important to the plot really got hurt in that scene. The only person who died in that attack was Sarah, and only because of bad writing. If I were to write the scene, most of the cast would have got killed off then and there due to a combination of human and zombie attackers.
Don't be confused. Telltale is trying to appeal to a 'mainstream' audience, which turns out to be young white guys with really immature attitudes regarding women, mental illness, and empathy. That's why Kenny and Luke are forced down our throats; why the only gay couple aren't even shown on-screen together; why we're meant to see their Governor rip-off as a deep character despite never seeing any humanizing elements from him; why Sarita was literally a prop for Kenny's angst; why nobody cares about Luke; why Jane is SO AWESOME for assaulting a crippled foreigner; why it was HILARIOUS that you had to slap that whiny bitch Sarah in order to save her; and so on.
It's an attitude I grew out of. Unfortunately, if 30-something children like Greg Miller still have these beliefs, I can't really say the same for a lot of fans.
This is an incredible representation of everything I'm feeling inside. I love this. It's so terrible that they were basically thrown aside like trash, almost. It doesn't make sense. It confuses me and makes me sad.
Not even the menu screens for the episodes really line up. Episode 3 has what looks Rebecca and Clem in danger and gives the implication tha… moret maybe Rebecca will give birth in this episode. Which doesn't happen of course. Amid the Ruins has Clem rubbing blood on her face which happens at the end of Episode 3 and has at least one 400 days character in shadows who never shows up in the actual episode. So its either a fake out or TTG decided to change the story they originally had planned. Which would explain the rushed deaths of Carver, Nick, Sarita, and Sarah
Its because saving Nick amounts to nothing in the next two episodes but an off-screen death never really gets acknowledged by anyone
Rebecca ends up crying, actually. Clementine has dialogue options to react to it. Luke sort of does, but doesn't really.
But with the Sarah one, Rebecca cries if you leave her at the trailer park. But Clementine has the option to get mad at Jane about it. That's as far as I can get with that.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thing. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so preciou… mores, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
This isn't what bothers me about Nick and Sarah's death, because Ben has the same kind of death and it is one of the most well-written ones in Season 1. Its because saving Nick amounts to nothing in the next two episodes but an off-screen death never really gets acknowledged by anyone.
My issue with Sarah ignoring how mean-spirited it is, is that saving her leads to a contrived death in the same episode that isn't acknowledged by anyone.
I think I worded myself a little bit wrong. I agree with what OP said about how we were meant to hate Sarah and Nick and how that makes sense. I don't really agree with any of the things you stated above. I guess what I said just made sense in the moment.
Don't be confused. Telltale is trying to appeal to a 'mainstream' audience, which turns out to be young white guys with really immature att… moreitudes regarding women, mental illness, and empathy. That's why Kenny and Luke are forced down our throats; why the only gay couple aren't even shown on-screen together; why we're meant to see their Governor rip-off as a deep character despite never seeing any humanizing elements from him; why Sarita was literally a prop for Kenny's angst; why nobody cares about Luke; why Jane is SO AWESOME for assaulting a crippled foreigner; why it was HILARIOUS that you had to slap that whiny bitch Sarah in order to save her; and so on.
It's an attitude I grew out of. Unfortunately, if 30-something children like Greg Miller still have these beliefs, I can't really say the same for a lot of fans.
Now I'm confused. So you agree with the original poster that it was a bad thing that you were meant to hate on Sarah and Nick, but the other flaws I pointed out aren't bad as well? Or do you think it's okay that these characters were meant to be hated?
I think I worded myself a little bit wrong. I agree with what OP said about how we were meant to hate Sarah and Nick and how that makes sens… moree. I don't really agree with any of the things you stated above. I guess what I said just made sense in the moment.
The Kenny and Luke being crammed down our throats thing I don't agree with. But, I don't hate their characters. I never really thought about the gay couples thing until you mentioned it.
Now I'm confused. So you agree with the original poster that it was a bad thing that you were meant to hate on Sarah and Nick, but the othe… morer flaws I pointed out aren't bad as well? Or do you think it's okay that these characters were meant to be hated?
Comments
Yes. The writers cared about Ben as a character, making even his aborted redemption in Episode 5 feel appropriate.
But if you notice, Season 2's writers seem to think Clementine hated Ben too. You have the chance to disdainfully compare Nick to Ben, and then Clementine has no chance to disagree with Kenny for calling him a "shit-bird".
I disagree. Opinions on their own do not deserve respect for being opinions. They deserve acknowledgment that they are opinions and nothing more. Respect or equally valid disrespect comes afterwards. Some people have "opinions" that some people in this world are worth less than others in real life, not in a game, and their "opinions" would be rightfully shot the hell down.
But okay, maybe that's the extreme kind of opinion. For a more closer to home example, the opinion that there is "nothing wrong" with Carver, which I remember you positing after episode 3 and is kind of the point of view being communicated by that current Carver thread, is the kind of thing where one begins to wonder just what kind of reality the opinion in question is coming from.
You know... Just saying.
Wow, I never really watched much Playing Dead so I assumed the hate that Greg Miller got was exaggerated, but that interview's cringeworthy.
This entire season just felt like we had no choices. Everything led to the same result: let them die now or let them die a tiny bit later. Everything was underwhelming. Characters were either barely fleshed out before they were gone, or were fleshed out to the point you thought it was leading up to something big for them and then they die. I don't really follow who writes what, but the first season had a drastically better writing team than this one.
I was actualy gonna make a thread like this and Telltale ''great job'' give us next time better writers or I don't buy the next season
Exactly, I've thought up quite a few scenarios that would be way better than what we were given. I think most people could do better, as long as they tried.
It makes me sick when people say that because Sarah had anxiety she had become a great liability and that there was no point in even trying to save her because she is the type of person who wouldn't be able to survive the apocalypse, well of course she won't survive if no one will help her! If Sarah didn't have anxiety and she wasn't in that position, then people would say different...
Interesting comment I read on Youtube:
It’s sort of sad to see so much vitriol towards Sarah from fans of the series. It’s just a reflection of how society in general views people with mental illness.
Exactly. I can go on a long spiel about the bias towards angry white men and why that means characters like Kenny get so much defense, and about how Strong Female Characters can only be as de-feminized as Jane, but I don't have the energy for that.
Part of my disappointment is that Season 1 allowed for players to empathize with a black man and see him as a sensitive, heroic figure even if he starts off in a police car. I was hoping the second Season would continue this theme of empathizing with minorities by having us focus on the struggles of a little girl - but instead, we're forced to agree with the cruel mindsets of murderers, thieves and psychotics.
Don't really have much more to add here, but thanks for making this post. You sum up a lot of my thoughts more eloquently than I could.
Yeah Telltale I'm glad that me and other anxiety-suffering autistic teens deserve to die horribly if we were ever in a similar situation because we're useless and will never change, that's a really great message you're sending. Oh, and then you just laugh and laugh and laugh as that IGN guy pretty much dances on Sarah's grave because of her disability, absolute comedy gold! I honestly can't believe this crap even happened.
Also for those that say Sarah deserved to die because she endangered the group, does that mean Lee should have kicked out/killed Clem when she couldn't pull the trigger to save him from a walker? Or when she followed Lee to the boats when told not to leave the mansion? When she left said mansion despite not being allowed to and found her way into the shed? How about the fact that she was feeding the Stranger information ever since the motor inn, resulting in her being taken, Ben and Kenny supposedly dying and Lee being bitten? Should Lee have just put a bullet between her eyes or left her to the walkers when he arrived at the Marsh House? Yeah, didn't think so.
And don't even get me started on how much of a liability Kenny is, both in season 1 and 2.
I just want to reiterate that when I said I believe Sarah and Nick are some of the strongest characters in the season, I meant what I said. And if you're like them, you're a very strong person too. Don't allow narratives like this to make you feel like a lesser or a worthless person, because you aren't.
You are a capable, deserving individual, and you kick life's ass every day just being you!
This is one of the many reasons I despise Greg Miller from within the darkest depths of my heart. That man goes out of his way to criticize characters, calling them annoying, stupid and even useless while those same words are the ones I could personally use to describe him. Because of Greg Miller I have stopped watching Playing Dead completely, because he just ruins it completely.
Damn, I'd write for them in a heartbeat. I found a ton of neat thematic elements and instances of possible foreshadowing they never actually bothered exploring. Felt like such a waste!
Even though it can be hard to believe at times, people with any kind of disability have to overcome so many different obstacles every single day. Their lives are often harder than other's and I have an immense amount of respect for these people, so seeing Telltale handling characters like Nick and Sarah so poorly leaves an intensely bad taste in my mouth.
Good read overall, it really makes you think.
First off, I don't think Telltale was literally saying or trying to convey that all disabled people are useless or deserve to die. I think it just happened Sarah was a disabled person who just died horribly. That's that. But here's how they could have easily done Nick and Sarah's death.
Sarah: If you bring Sarah with you, when the deck is about to collapse, Sarah notices Clementine is near the edge and will fall off. So as the deck collapses she pushes Clementine saying "Clementine! Move!" This causes Clementine to be on the side of the deck which doesn't collapse, yet Sarah collapses with the deck. Jane is pulled up by Luke, and Sarah will be trapped close to walkers. If you were friends with Sarah, she will say "Goodbye Clementine. You were the best friend ever."
If you weren't friends with Sarah she will say "Goodbye Clementine." The walkers will then devour her.
Nick: With Nick we could have found him crouched by the gate in Episode Four instead of dead. He tells you his shoulder has been bandaged, with medical supplies they found in the mobile home. He mentions Luke is there with Sarah now. He will instantly help you with the "puzzle" concerning how to distract the walkers. When you're being attacked by walkers he kicks the door in for you. When you have the choice of leaving Sarah or not, no matter what you choose Nick will get Sarah up on his shoulders and let Luke carry her up. Clementine goes and then Jane, Nick never makes it out in time. But tells Clementine before the walkers get him that she was great (if you went with Uncle Pete at the end of Episode 1/If you defended him at the bridge/Gave him the watch during Episode 2) or thanks her (if you went with Nick at the end of Episode 1).
The writing in wd s2 reminds me off that god awful heroes show.
Story arcs dropped outta nowhere, people being written out for no reason, people returning from the dead, characters acting illogical to forward the plot.
This season is quite frankly a mess.
This
Great thread, but I was looking at the situation differently.
The fact that they didn't get to redeem themselves is actually a normal thing. I look at it as "This is The Walking Dead. Life is so precious, and it can be taken in and instant. Fair or not, villainess or heroic, it will always end."
But that's not what some people are mad about, they're made about how Greg Miller completely trash talked Sarah's character, made her out to be a liability and proved himself as an ableist. And the exact Telltale staff, laughed with him. Not only laugh, but AGREE. That's the only thing I'm pissed off at Telltale for. Oh, and Nick dying offscreen. That was a total bitch.
This isn't what bothers me about Nick and Sarah's death, because Ben has the same kind of death and it is one of the most well-written ones in Season 1. Its because saving Nick amounts to nothing in the next two episodes but an off-screen death never really gets acknowledged by anyone.
My issue with Sarah ignoring how mean-spirited it is, is that saving her leads to a contrived death in the same episode that isn't acknowledged by anyone.
Honestly, that's what I believed Jane was there for. To make us think like the people in Crawford and get rid of the people who were "bringing us down". I honestly did not like Jane because of that. Jane and Molly may be similar in past history and who they are (females and loners) but not the same in beliefs. I'm absolutely sure that Jane would've fit in just fine with the people in Crawford.
If I could bring Nick back I would
The "this is the apocalypse, things go fast, people just die" argument is indeed bullsh*t, even in the Walking Dead comics. Kirkman admitted in an interview that deaths weren't random, it was a rational processus "I can't do anything else with this character, I'll let him get bitten by a random crawling walker and focus on someone else". Meanwhile, Negan who should have been killed half a dozen times is still alive because his fascinating bastard aura gives him a diamond plot armor.
Holy shit man! What you said were some of the exact things I thought of for their death scenarios! HIGH FIVE!
Sadly for Tell Tale, I loved Nick and Sarah
I like what you wrote for Nick.
For Sarah I was expecting her to pick up the gun that was dropped on the deck after the Arvo thing. I know its a small thing but I feel like that is something that was maybe missed? (It seems odd how they camera focus on it falling on the deck but nothing happened with it as far as we seen. Or maybe I missed something related to it?)
You know, it's really upsetting me how they just killed them just because they disliked their characters for who they were. When I write my stories I believe no matter how much I(or many) hated them I still try my absolute best to look for the potential they could possess. And lemme tell you one (NEGAN MODE)motherfucking shitting fucking fuckity dick crapping thing: THEY HAD A LOT OF POTENTIAL WASTED! Telltale, because of how they disliked them, completely ignored the potential they could possess. Both Nick and Sarah were some of the most realistic characters I've known! But Telltale practically had the Jane motive and killed them off from the story because they were just liabilities to the cast. Cuz they would slow down the group and story to them. Sarah had a lot of potential, she didn't need to be a badass. She could've been the peacemaker of the group, trying to help as best she can. And try to get the group out tough spots(say Sarah could find a way to distract walkers away from the deck while having Clem to watch her back). And Nick was just a ghost the entire fucking time after Ep2. It's sad... I remember one of the most important things Lee ever told Clem: "You hold onto that hope. It's the one thing that none of this can take away." and it feels like Telltale just spitted on Lee by putting Jane just to prove Sarah's an liability. That disabled people don't belong in this world, that Carver and Jane were right the whole time, that there is only room for badasses. Making it feel like Lee's words meant nothing: that there is no hope.
Heh I typed more than I wanted. Sorry if I went all over the place and might've went off-topic a bit. I tried to convey my thinking as best as I can. I'm just really frikkin pissed about the treatment of these characters.
Well, the interview confirmed that, at the very least, the writer and director for Amid The Ruins saw the characters more as tools than people that players had to feel an emotional connection to. "Let's kill off Kenny's girlfriend to make him feel bad. Let's kill off Nick because he's a loose end. Let's have players hit Sarah to help her because hurting disabled kids is awesome! Let's have Luke screw Jane because we need another reason to hate him!"
I said before that I was bothered by how the game forced you to hit Sarah in order to save her, and it turns out that the devs deliberately intended that because they thought it'd be amusing. It's a very pathetic kind of person who takes glee in hurting those weaker than them. I don't know if they were abused themselves, but it's not the kind of mindset that needs reinforcing here.
Uh, no, we're meant to become Crawford if we WANT to.
I was never bothered by Sarah and Nick, I loved them both.
I understood that she had some issues, and that is no reason to hate her. It's like people are too dense to figure that she had a disability and her dad wasn't exactly helping her work around it, not that she was "stupid" because she wanted to.
In the end Sarah died in a freak accident, after all. Could have happened to any of them.
It makes me fear for how uninformed people are of mental issues in real life.
So what are the odds that episode 3 and 4 were rewritten from their original premise? Something seems off about both episodes and its not just the character deaths.
A lot of people figured out that she was 'off' in some way, and feared and hated her automatically because of that. It's an irrational response, and I was hoping the writers, at the very least, didn't believe in it.
But it turns out that they themselves endorse this kind of stigma towards mentally ill people, and my opinion of them's lowered immensely because of that. There's already enough immaturity in the gamer world and a lot of shitty attitudes perpetuated in media - now TWD is turning out to be little better than the likes of GTA in terms of world outlook. In a game that's ostensibly about the coming of age of a little girl and struggling to retain her humanity, it turns out that the writers themselves seem to lack empathy when it comes to vulnerable people.
Only edgy 'badasses' thrive in videogame world, and if you're weak you deserve to die.
This is an incredible representation of everything I'm feeling inside. I love this. It's so terrible that they were basically thrown aside like trash, almost. It doesn't make sense. It confuses me and makes me sad.
Yeah I don't understand how people enjoy watching a child suffer like that and slapping her just for the hell off it. Seriously?! WHAT THE FUCK?! I know Clem would NEVER have done that to Sarah!
At least I try to at the very least to make my characters last and try to make them feel realistic. I may have failed before but I'm REALLY trying in my comic. God all this bullshit makes me want to write TWD Season 3 just to make things right! I would even do it for FREE if I have to! All I want to do is make the game what it once was and Telltale just doesn't seem to care! I respected them a lot, but after learning the truth more and more, I am disappointed beyond belief.
Amid The Ruins really seemed to be more about an actual 'civil war' - the menu screen music had this ominous war horn playing, and the shadowy figures led me to believe we'd be seeing a battle between a group at Parker's Run and the remnants of Carver's group. What we got instead was a little...pathetic.
Hell, the "All Fall Down" attack at the observation deck isn't even that menacing or dangerous. The achievement seemed bleak because of its name and its description of how you "survived the attack", yet it turns out that nobody important to the plot really got hurt in that scene. The only person who died in that attack was Sarah, and only because of bad writing. If I were to write the scene, most of the cast would have got killed off then and there due to a combination of human and zombie attackers.
Not even the menu screens for the episodes really line up. Episode 3 has what looks Rebecca and Clem in danger and gives the implication that maybe Rebecca will give birth in this episode. Which doesn't happen of course. Amid the Ruins has Clem rubbing blood on her face which happens at the end of Episode 3 and has at least one 400 days character in shadows who never shows up in the actual episode. So its either a fake out or TTG decided to change the story they originally had planned. Which would explain the rushed deaths of Carver, Nick, Sarita, and Sarah
Don't be confused. Telltale is trying to appeal to a 'mainstream' audience, which turns out to be young white guys with really immature attitudes regarding women, mental illness, and empathy. That's why Kenny and Luke are forced down our throats; why the only gay couple aren't even shown on-screen together; why we're meant to see their Governor rip-off as a deep character despite never seeing any humanizing elements from him; why Sarita was literally a prop for Kenny's angst; why nobody cares about Luke; why Jane is SO AWESOME for assaulting a crippled foreigner; why it was HILARIOUS that you had to slap that whiny bitch Sarah in order to save her; and so on.
It's an attitude I grew out of. Unfortunately, if 30-something children like Greg Miller still have these beliefs, I can't really say the same for a lot of fans.
But honestly, the premise of "actual civil war" seems so much better than what we actually got.
Rebecca ends up crying, actually. Clementine has dialogue options to react to it. Luke sort of does, but doesn't really.
But with the Sarah one, Rebecca cries if you leave her at the trailer park. But Clementine has the option to get mad at Jane about it. That's as far as I can get with that.
I think I worded myself a little bit wrong. I agree with what OP said about how we were meant to hate Sarah and Nick and how that makes sense. I don't really agree with any of the things you stated above. I guess what I said just made sense in the moment.
Now I'm confused. So you agree with the original poster that it was a bad thing that you were meant to hate on Sarah and Nick, but the other flaws I pointed out aren't bad as well? Or do you think it's okay that these characters were meant to be hated?
The Kenny and Luke being crammed down our throats thing I don't agree with. But, I don't hate their characters. I never really thought about the gay couples thing until you mentioned it.