Yeah, the bad writing makes it hard to take things seriously. The weird tone and inconsistency of each character's...character, is like sucking on a lemon. It takes you out of the moment and makes you realise its just a game that has wonky writing, subpar gameplay and is ultimately linear. Not an engrossing, emotional experience.
Remember in the first ep, when we first thought Rebecca (pregnant lady) was a bitch to Clem? Because she was mean and didn't want the group to help her? And we all hated her for it?
She then goes all apologetic, and boom, everything's supposed to be all amiable and good. 'Cause you know, refusing to help a child because you're pregnant is reasonable. Or is it? But the story chugs along regardless, so we give her a pass.
Also, the characters are still Carley levels of stupid. Like that part with the water. Not only were they talking the entire time, they ended up kicking down the door anyway! So much for keeping quiet to not attract walkers.
And Jane was suddenly interested in screwing around with Luke. Wasn't she above all of that, placing survival and safety above all else? Seemed out of character. Also, she's essentially Molly 2.0, but other people have probably pointed that out.
Additionally, I kind of don't feel protective of Clem anymore either to be honest. Just kind of curious about what the ending is, rather than continuation at the end of episode 4. 'Cause you know, she's Clem so she'll make it to the end either way.
And then depending on who you favoured, Luke or Kenny will help you. 'Cause you know, Telltale put in an innovative system where characters remember stuff...
I agree with you on some points. I didn't hate Sarah or Nick, but they sure annoyed me to death. I kept joking with my brother how I wanted … morethem both to die, but that was it, a joke. I really wanted them to grow as people and overcome their weaknesses. However, when I realized Nick could die at the end of the first episode, I kinda knew in my heart its Telltale Destiny that he die later on, if not here, then eventually. I wanted Sarah to find the strength to get over her issues, but after spoiling the choices to myself (Youtube vids about leaked information) I knew that no matter what, she would die as well. But thats not the worst part, sure I hate the characters dying, but they don't ever develop. Telltale basically says, "No DUH!" to us about that during episode 4 when Jane talks about her sister. Despite the mock themes of friendship, trust, and growth, thats all it is, a mockery because this never happens.
I can still get by without t… [view original content]
Funny how Greg Miller said that people who left Sarah behind were on "the right side of history", given this kind of implication... And by funny, I mean despicable.
What a shitstorm. Wow.
From that interview, I personally got the impression less that Telltale's representatives were 100% in agreement w… moreith Greg and more that they didn't have the conviction to argue with him about it. If he had said how sad he was to see Sarah die and how he wished it could have been different, they would have run with that just as eagerly and given examples of people from Telltale sharing the same sentiment. I get the sense they aren't all that invested in their characters, certainly not enough to argue in their defense.
I find them more lacking in character than actually sadistic. A louder and more obnoxious person like Greg can drag such people along with them into saying all kinds of horrible things.That still makes them contemptible, but in a different way.
Tbh guys after everything that happened in amid the ruins , playing dead and Greg's lame attempt to justify himself over what happened.I am no longer excited and over joyed when episode 5 comes out.
Episode 5 will be a dull attempt to continue the cliffhanger of episode 4 and finish season 2 even though Nick Breck is the writer who had a hard time writing the finale which I'm sure he did and excellent job
TT247 I'm telling you Pizza and Ice cream will not come to existence.
The writing of deaths these past two episodes have been terrible. Yes, it is true that realistically deaths in a zombie apocalypse would occur randomly, sometimes too quick to react to and without dramatic build up but let's stop pretending that the deaths in The Walking Dead aren't written and constructed by someone. And that there's anything realistic about a zombie apocalypse in general.
Deaths in a game, tv show etc. don't create impact by just happening. Sure there's the initial shock value of the deaths themselves and how graphic they are and people can make declarations on how "no one is safe" in this world, but this is all temporary. For a death to have actual an emotional response in fiction the characters themselves must react to them. Would Lee's death have been as effective if Clementine had sat there emotionless, shot him, shrugged and left?
That sounds like an exaggeration but that was basically what happened with Nick and Sarah's deaths last episode. Not only is having all characters basically ignore their deaths terrible for their characterisation of others, but it's just piss poor from a writers stand point. You could make the case that Clementine is desensitised to the deaths now, but this still doesn't make sense for other characters like Rebecca and Bonnie who are shown to be compassionate, and Luke, who is almost in tears at the mention of a dog dying.
This all sounds like pretty basic writing 101 to me but it's something that some writers at Telltale don't seem to understand - or maybe they just don't care. And I'm not sure which is worse.
Totally agree with you all here. This interview really only confirmed my fears about Telltale's intentions (or lack of). They either were not thinking about this at all/just being lazy, or they were deliberately catering to fans like Greg who were demanding Sarah's blood.
What a shitstorm. Wow.
From that interview, I personally got the impression less that Telltale's representatives were 100% in agreement w… moreith Greg and more that they didn't have the conviction to argue with him about it. If he had said how sad he was to see Sarah die and how he wished it could have been different, they would have run with that just as eagerly and given examples of people from Telltale sharing the same sentiment. I get the sense they aren't all that invested in their characters, certainly not enough to argue in their defense.
I find them more lacking in character than actually sadistic. A louder and more obnoxious person like Greg can drag such people along with them into saying all kinds of horrible things.That still makes them contemptible, but in a different way.
Yeah even after playing episode 4 I still held onto some tiny hope that Telltale's mistakes were unintentional or that they were aware of them or were going to try to fix them etc etc. But really this interview just made me lose all hope in Telltale completely. I really don't want to give them any money for anything ever again. It's sad really.
Tbh guys after everything that happened in amid the ruins , playing dead and Greg's lame attempt to justify himself over what happened.I am… more no longer excited and over joyed when episode 5 comes out.
Episode 5 will be a dull attempt to continue the cliffhanger of episode 4 and finish season 2 even though Nick Breck is the writer who had a hard time writing the finale which I'm sure he did and excellent job
TT247 I'm telling you Pizza and Ice cream will not come to existence.
Yes people keep arguing that the deaths were supposed to mean something, that they were supposed to be about the futility/fragility/danger of life etc.. But this is like zillionth time we've said this, this is not supposed to be real life. Real life is not obligated to be satisfying and purposeful. Good writing is.
The writing of deaths these past two episodes have been terrible. Yes, it is true that realistically deaths in a zombie apocalypse would occ… moreur randomly, sometimes too quick to react to and without dramatic build up but let's stop pretending that the deaths in The Walking Dead aren't written and constructed by someone. And that there's anything realistic about a zombie apocalypse in general.
Deaths in a game, tv show etc. don't create impact by just happening. Sure there's the initial shock value of the deaths themselves and how graphic they are and people can make declarations on how "no one is safe" in this world, but this is all temporary. For a death to have actual an emotional response in fiction the characters themselves must react to them. Would Lee's death have been as effective if Clementine had sat there emotionless, shot him, shrugged and left?
That sounds like an exaggeration but that was basically what happened with Nick and… [view original content]
No, a death doesn't have to mean anything, and it certainly doesn't need to have a purpose. But no matter what, people WILL react to deaths, no matter how used they are to it.
To not write in any reaction about Sarah's and Nick's death is... just horrible writing, and I don't understand why no one at TTG reacted to that - "uh guys, so if Sarah just died, shouldn't my character say something about that?"
"Nah, it'll be fine. We'll laugh about it later in the after talks."
Yes people keep arguing that the deaths were supposed to mean something, that they were supposed to be about the futility/fragility/danger o… moref life etc.. But this is like zillionth time we've said this, this is not supposed to be real life. Real life is not obligated to be satisfying and purposeful. Good writing is.
Funny how Greg Miller said that people who left Sarah behind were on "the right side of history", given this kind of implication... And by funny, I mean despicable.
No, a death doesn't have to mean anything, and it certainly doesn't need to have a purpose. But no matter what, people WILL react to deaths,… more no matter how used they are to it.
To not write in any reaction about Sarah's and Nick's death is... just horrible writing, and I don't understand why no one at TTG reacted to that - "uh guys, so if Sarah just died, shouldn't my character say something about that?"
"Nah, it'll be fine. We'll laugh about it later in the after talks."
Did anybody at Telltale had a problem with Nick's & Sarah's deaths?
The voice actors, the animation team, the lead writers, Job,Melissa,Gavin ........anybody?
I'm sure that this season's staff did 10x less work than last season's...
I don't blame the writers of episdoe 3 and episode 4 for the fuck up they made.They really did awesome job only IF you look from a different perspective.(but the death of our two beloved can not be explained)
putting aside the events of episode 1 and 2 , episode 3 turns out to be an intriguing magnificent episode , and putting aside the events of episode 3 , episode 4 also turned out pretty well.
BUT when episode are put the together ,they will lack motives ,character(especially characters development) , intellect , logic.(Its like mixing some jelly , chocolate and fish in a pizza) , it lacks continuity and taste (Seriously)
We need to see that It's not the writers' fault they fucked up It's Telltale .The writers didn't have privileges and the full motive to expand the story (Like I said on a previous post I wrote) Pierre Shorrete and JT petty couldn't care less about character development and continuity because they didn't start season 2 , the story of season 2 isn't theirs from the beginning(Unlike Nick they do not care about minor details and background these two want to write a fast pasted meaningful story that lacks importance for minor background and characters).
P.S.:These The two writers sees the protagonist as the major important character in the story , so their main focus will be on Clementine and they do not care the involvement of minor characters.
TT247 you never know Nick Breckon MIGHT pull it off in episode 5
Edit:This is like the best thread I saw , looking at the comments and likes , people do think rationally
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Yeah even after playing episode 4 I still held onto some tiny hope that Telltale's mistakes were unintentional or that they were aware of th… moreem or were going to try to fix them etc etc. But really this interview just made me lose all hope in Telltale completely. I really don't want to give them any money for anything ever again. It's sad really.
Did anybody at Telltale had a problem with Nick's & Sarah's deaths?
The voice actors, the animation team, the lead writers, Job,Melissa,Gavin ........anybody?
I'm sure that this season's staff did 10x less work than last season's...
About the characters, the way they got rid of Nick... disappointed and saddened me.
We saw Nick Breckon started an amazing arc on him but the others writers didn't saw the same thing. And the reason why I'm pissed off about this is because without too much effort , Nick could have become one the most lovable and complex character of the Walking Dead game.
About the characters, the way they got rid of Nick... disappointed and saddened me.
We saw Nick Breckon started an amazing arc on him bu… moret the others writers didn't saw the same thing. And the reason why I'm pissed off about this is because without too much effort , Nick could have become one the most lovable and complex character of the Walking Dead game.
Doesn't it just feel wasteful? Pete told me to look out for Nick, I tried to be stern yet caring to Nick with the very little dialogue you have with him. His character has no resolution like Ben's did, just "Oops, I messed up again." Then dead. Its the same with Sarah, it looks like we're suppose to build relationships with these characters but its nothing but a big farce. Despite my teasing of the girl, I made sure I was a good friend to her and what does she say in return? "We're not friends." Then she winds up dead. It sucked seeing Nick zombified, especially when we don't see the struggle that occurred. All that (little) time trying to build them up is just thrown down the toilet.
It felt more disappointing than sad. I think you're right when you say Telltale doesn't care or understand, as long as Clementine is around they have their emotional cash cow and icon. All the world around her is fodder only to ascend her in the ranks of zombie killing goddess.
The writing of deaths these past two episodes have been terrible. Yes, it is true that realistically deaths in a zombie apocalypse would occ… moreur randomly, sometimes too quick to react to and without dramatic build up but let's stop pretending that the deaths in The Walking Dead aren't written and constructed by someone. And that there's anything realistic about a zombie apocalypse in general.
Deaths in a game, tv show etc. don't create impact by just happening. Sure there's the initial shock value of the deaths themselves and how graphic they are and people can make declarations on how "no one is safe" in this world, but this is all temporary. For a death to have actual an emotional response in fiction the characters themselves must react to them. Would Lee's death have been as effective if Clementine had sat there emotionless, shot him, shrugged and left?
That sounds like an exaggeration but that was basically what happened with Nick and… [view original content]
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
But I agree that it was a fucked up way of killing him; we didn't get to see why or how, and that is something called a devil ex machina, which is just as bad as a deux ex machina. Bad, but it's also sloppy and incredibly lazy writing.
About the characters, the way they got rid of Nick... disappointed and saddened me.
We saw Nick Breckon started an amazing arc on him bu… moret the others writers didn't saw the same thing. And the reason why I'm pissed off about this is because without too much effort , Nick could have become one the most lovable and complex character of the Walking Dead game.
You have a point. But honestly, the fact is that I'm afraid I don't even really care anymore. This whole thing has just completely soured my view on Telltale, at this point I'm really not expecting anything more from them. Even if the finale is unbelievably great, they've still made these mistakes and lost all this potential that they can never get back.
And the way they seem to glorify the other characters while forgetting about everyone else really affects my opinion of them. Like in episode 1, Luke used to be my favorite, but I grew to love Nick and Sarah and let myself grow attached to them. But now they've just been killed off for no reason, and continue to be badmouthed by people like Greg who put them down to gush over Jane and Luke... idk combined with how I feel like Luke's suddenly turned into a different person this episode, I honestly could care less about him right now. I know how petty that sounds but that's how I feel lol.
When I first wrote this thread I kept fluctuating back and forth between wanting to think that there still was hope and that Telltale didn't intend for the writing to turn out the way it did. But this latest interview really only confirms what I was afraid was going on over there.
I don't blame the writers of episdoe 3 and episode 4 for the fuck up they made.They really did awesome job only IF you look from a different… more perspective.(but the death of our two beloved can not be explained)
putting aside the events of episode 1 and 2 , episode 3 turns out to be an intriguing magnificent episode , and putting aside the events of episode 3 , episode 4 also turned out pretty well.
BUT when episode are put the together ,they will lack motives ,character(especially characters development) , intellect , logic.(Its like mixing some jelly , chocolate and fish in a pizza) , it lacks continuity and taste (Seriously)
We need to see that It's not the writers' fault they fucked up It's Telltale .The writers didn't have privileges and the full motive to expand the story (Like I said on a previous post I wrote) Pierre Shorrete and JT petty couldn't care less about character development and continuity because they didn't start s… [view original content]
Genuine about his opinion? Opinion? Because hating and laughing at a 15 year old girl dying is being GENUINE. Stop riding and stop trying to… more justify greg's immature actions. They are not OKAY at all and it's sad how you view it as "normal". Tells me alot about you and the people who find greg's actions and "opinions" (if you consider them that) acceptable. It probably would've been best if greg never replied in the first place. Since this apology actually makes him look like a bigger ..... jerk.
Even though I was very attached to Nick's character, I did not feel sad at all when he showed up dead in episode 4. I just felt angry. It was so obviously bad it just took me right out of the moment. It really set the tone for the rest of the episode.
And about Clem, I feel bad really. It's like Telltale thinks the characters around her are all being thrown away for her supposed development, but they don't make any effort to show HOW any of this personally affects her. She's been pretty much emotionless and static this whole season, no changes or growth to be seen. Not saying that she can't just be suppressing her feelings or something, but like most other characters this season, I'm convinced that the portrayal is less intentional and is more just a result of lazy writing.
Doesn't it just feel wasteful? Pete told me to look out for Nick, I tried to be stern yet caring to Nick with the very little dialogue you h… moreave with him. His character has no resolution like Ben's did, just "Oops, I messed up again." Then dead. Its the same with Sarah, it looks like we're suppose to build relationships with these characters but its nothing but a big farce. Despite my teasing of the girl, I made sure I was a good friend to her and what does she say in return? "We're not friends." Then she winds up dead. It sucked seeing Nick zombified, especially when we don't see the struggle that occurred. All that (little) time trying to build them up is just thrown down the toilet.
It felt more disappointing than sad. I think you're right when you say Telltale doesn't care or understand, as long as Clementine is around they have their emotional cash cow and icon. All the world around her is fodder only to ascend her in the ranks of zombie killing goddess.
I disagree that Nick was just "a new Ben". Sure, they may have had a similar habit of alienating themselves from the group and getting into trouble without thinking things through, but really I think all comparisons pretty much end there.
Two things:
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
But I agree … morethat it was a fucked up way of killing him; we didn't get to see why or how, and that is something called a devil ex machina, which is just as bad as a deux ex machina. Bad, but it's also sloppy and incredibly lazy writing.
It's pretty common knowledge that the media has an obvious effect on how people see and treat people in their lives. You can't excuse it because "it's an opinion" or "it's not real". These things have influence and effects, and they are very real.
Totally agree with you TT247. If Nick and sarah would still be alive, I'd actually care about the series. Imagine if they were still alive, I'd be shitting my pants and excited about episode 5... Telltale has lost their minds and basically killed off the characters that really did matter to the majority of us. It just fucking pisses me off so god damn much, they just shit on what i loved so much.
You have a point. But honestly, the fact is that I'm afraid I don't even really care anymore. This whole thing has just completely soured my… more view on Telltale, at this point I'm really not expecting anything more from them. Even if the finale is unbelievably great, they've still made these mistakes and lost all this potential that they can never get back.
And the way they seem to glorify the other characters while forgetting about everyone else really affects my opinion of them. Like in episode 1, Luke used to be my favorite, but I grew to love Nick and Sarah and let myself grow attached to them. But now they've just been killed off for no reason, and continue to be badmouthed by people like Greg who put them down to gush over Jane and Luke... idk combined with how I feel like Luke's suddenly turned into a different person this episode, I honestly could care less about him right now. I know how petty that sounds but that's how I feel lol.
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Actually, if you listened to the interview. The big guy says alot of people were excited and eager to exclude sarah from the group. He said the people back in the office were all like
sarah,sarah,sarah.. can't wait to get rid of her
I guess telltale doesn't give a shit about their characters.
Did anybody at Telltale had a problem with Nick's & Sarah's deaths?
The voice actors, the animation team, the lead writers, Job,Melissa,Gavin ........anybody?
I'm sure that this season's staff did 10x less work than last season's...
Two things:
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
But I agree … morethat it was a fucked up way of killing him; we didn't get to see why or how, and that is something called a devil ex machina, which is just as bad as a deux ex machina. Bad, but it's also sloppy and incredibly lazy writing.
Yes, even if you were not personally offended by their views, this was a very disappointing reveal to the fans. Not only will Telltale no longer bother defending their own character, but some of them actively want her dead? Ouch.
Actually, if you listened to the interview. The big guy says alot of people were excited and eager to exclude sarah from the group. He said … morethe people back in the office were all like
sarah,sarah,sarah.. can't wait to get rid of her
I guess telltale doesn't give a shit about their characters.
Yeah but it's not just because they're gone. It's the fact that they're gone with absolutely no consequence to the story or with anyone caring about them at all. Instead of being satisfying or even emotional in the least, both deaths were just a slap in the face. I wasn't even sad that they died, I was just blown away by how much they didn't matter. At this point their deaths honestly feel more like a bad dream. It's just unbelievable to me that Telltale chose to get rid of them like that.
Totally agree with you TT247. If Nick and sarah would still be alive, I'd actually care about the series. Imagine if they were still alive, … moreI'd be shitting my pants and excited about episode 5... Telltale has lost their minds and basically killed off the characters that really did matter to the majority of us. It just fucking pisses me off so god damn much, they just shit on what i loved so much.
Agree with @Ellias and @TT247 and mostly everyone,Sarah and Nick were the standout characters of season 2,they just seemed to come into there own in the previous episodes,they have become everything Telltale didn't want,they have took over the fan base,divided opinons,caused controversy,and sort of ruined the end of the season in their shitty written deaths.
Also i miss these 2 like real people,not fictional characters.
Even though I was very attached to Nick's character, I did not feel sad at all when he showed up dead in episode 4. I just felt angry. It wa… mores so obviously bad it just took me right out of the moment. It really set the tone for the rest of the episode.
And about Clem, I feel bad really. It's like Telltale thinks the characters around her are all being thrown away for her supposed development, but they don't make any effort to show HOW any of this personally affects her. She's been pretty much emotionless and static this whole season, no changes or growth to be seen. Not saying that she can't just be suppressing her feelings or something, but like most other characters this season, I'm convinced that the portrayal is less intentional and is more just a result of lazy writing.
That's a good point, and it's why their deaths continue to confuse the shiz out of me. Sarah and Nick were probably the most talked-about characters in the fanbase. Until episode 3 Nick had a huge amount of character focus and screen time, arguably more so than anyone else in the cabin group besides Sarah, whose importance was also obvious. She was integral to just about every episode, and was very well developed. Then they are both suddenly killed off for no reason at all in a completely railroaded and emotionless way. It's just mindboggling to me. Purely from a storytelling perspective, why would you throw away these characters like that? They were so much more than what Telltale reduced them to. It just doesn't make any sense.
Agree with @Ellias and @TT247 and mostly everyone,Sarah and Nick were the standout characters of season 2,they just seemed to come into ther… moree own in the previous episodes,they have become everything Telltale didn't want,they have took over the fan base,divided opinons,caused controversy,and sort of ruined the end of the season in their shitty written deaths.
Also i miss these 2 like real people,not fictional characters.
Well, there was also her reaction to Alvin's Ep3 death, her angrily telling Kenny she had to shoot Lee, her reaction to Sarah's death in the trailer park... There are quite a few examples, though it's kind of sad to see how much more detached the bright little girl we once knew has become
Yeah but it's not just that she's unemotional. It's just that the whole thing doesn't click with me. If this season is truly meant to be nothing more than a character study on Clementine herself, why not have the themes actually reflect this? Why not have the choices change Clementine's behavior, or affect the people around her? Why not take the time to reflect on how these situations personally affect her? Why would you have her react so unemotionally if you're supposed to be trying to show us her thoughts and growth and feelings? Clementine is never the focus, she is constantly overshadowed by the characters and situations we are presented with. If a character study is really meant to be the point of this season, it really should have been a bit more obvious.
Well, there was also her reaction to Alvin's Ep3 death, her angrily telling Kenny she had to shoot Lee, her reaction to Sarah's death in the… more trailer park... There are quite a few examples, though it's kind of sad to see how much more detached the bright little girl we once knew has become
But seriously though.In real life and the fact there's survival in it , there would be no real story no real consequence (you are trying to survive and deal with shit coming your way , you are constantly facing the unpredictable and the unexpected) (anything that happens situation) that exactly what episode 4 was about realism and pragmatism.
what ever the opposite of the above statement is different , adding value into the story and keeping it a slow paced story unlike real life.
example about no real consequence to the story and living bet wen realism and fast paced writing.(I like to call it season 2 so far in a nutshell)
Episode 1:I lost Christa and I'm lost.......oh hey I met some assholes that locked in a shed.............. AND found some dead bodies and learned about someone named Carver.
Episode 2:Oh no we lost Pete and I'm alone in the cabin with a eccentric kid........................I met a notorious guy that was searching for the group......................what we are on the road already....................... Nick shot someone.....................OMG it's Kenny......................... oh shit we are surrounded......................I'm being held as a prisoner GREAT.
Episode 3:Great I'm in a prison for something I didn't do...........working real hard...............made a plan to get out of here.................. updated the plan TWICE................... my cheek hurts and Kenny got beaten......................I'm witnessing the gruesome death that someone I just met who was an asshole to the group and to me............... AND we are escaping
Episode 4:Lost Sarita................Talking to Jane..............Kenny is pissed as usual.................lost Nick meh.................Sarah is safe...............Talking to Jane..............Searching supplies for Rebecca.............Met a deceitful asshole..........Talking to Jane............Saw Jane and Luke............Baby is born oh yeah and we lost Sarah..................Rebecca is dead we are being held at gunpoint.
Yeah but it's not just because they're gone. It's the fact that they're gone with absolutely no consequence to the story or with anyone cari… moreng about them at all. Instead of being satisfying or even emotional in the least, both deaths were just a slap in the face. I wasn't even sad that they died, I was just blown away by how much they didn't matter. At this point their deaths honestly feel more like a bad dream. It's just unbelievable to me that Telltale chose to get rid of them like that.
That's a good point, and it's why their deaths continue to confuse the shiz out of me. Sarah and Nick were probably the most talked-about ch… morearacters in the fanbase. Until episode 3 Nick had a huge amount of character focus and screen time, arguably more so than anyone else in the cabin group besides Sarah, whose importance was also obvious. She was integral to just about every episode, and was very well developed. Then they are both suddenly killed off for no reason at all in a completely railroaded and emotionless way. It's just mindboggling to me. Purely from a storytelling perspective, why would you throw away these characters like that? They were so much more than what Telltale reduced them to. It just doesn't make any sense.
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
You're literally basing all of that off of the fact the two of them are depressed and make mistakes. Nick was sarcastic and had a dry sense of humor whereas Ben was very solemn, Nick was honest and very broken up at the idea over lying to Walter and only did it because Luke urged him whereas Ben lied to the group on his own accord, Nick willingly sacrificed himself for Clementine in a group of walkers whereas Ben ran and left her alone, Nick has a lot of insecurities and dynamics related to his family that trouble him (neglectful father, had to kill his mother, resentful yet loving relationship with Pete) whereas Ben had no issues with his family other than the fact he was troubled by not knowing if they're okay or not.
Two things:
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
But I agree … morethat it was a fucked up way of killing him; we didn't get to see why or how, and that is something called a devil ex machina, which is just as bad as a deux ex machina. Bad, but it's also sloppy and incredibly lazy writing.
The very first moment you say to Nick that he reminds of Ben (In the game EP2) he proves you wrong.By sacrificing himself , and agreeing with you about telling the truth to Walter...
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
You're literally basin… moreg all of that off of the fact the two of them are depressed and make mistakes. Nick was sarcastic and had a dry sense of humor whereas Ben was very solemn, Nick was honest and very broken up at the idea over lying to Walter and only did it because Luke urged him whereas Ben lied to the group on his own accord, Nick willingly sacrificed himself for Clementine in a group of walkers whereas Ben ran and left her alone, Nick has a lot of insecurities and dynamics related to his family that trouble him (neglectful father, had to kill his mother, resentful yet loving relationship with Pete) whereas Ben had no issues with his family other than the fact he was troubled by not knowing if they're okay or not.
Nick and Ben are very, very different.
Funny how Greg Miller said that people who left Sarah behind were on "the right side of history", given this kind of implication... And by funny, I mean despicable.
Comments
Yeah, the bad writing makes it hard to take things seriously. The weird tone and inconsistency of each character's...character, is like sucking on a lemon. It takes you out of the moment and makes you realise its just a game that has wonky writing, subpar gameplay and is ultimately linear. Not an engrossing, emotional experience.
Remember in the first ep, when we first thought Rebecca (pregnant lady) was a bitch to Clem? Because she was mean and didn't want the group to help her? And we all hated her for it?
She then goes all apologetic, and boom, everything's supposed to be all amiable and good. 'Cause you know, refusing to help a child because you're pregnant is reasonable. Or is it? But the story chugs along regardless, so we give her a pass.
Also, the characters are still Carley levels of stupid. Like that part with the water. Not only were they talking the entire time, they ended up kicking down the door anyway! So much for keeping quiet to not attract walkers.
And Jane was suddenly interested in screwing around with Luke. Wasn't she above all of that, placing survival and safety above all else? Seemed out of character. Also, she's essentially Molly 2.0, but other people have probably pointed that out.
Additionally, I kind of don't feel protective of Clem anymore either to be honest. Just kind of curious about what the ending is, rather than continuation at the end of episode 4. 'Cause you know, she's Clem so she'll make it to the end either way.
And then depending on who you favoured, Luke or Kenny will help you. 'Cause you know, Telltale put in an innovative system where characters remember stuff...
Funny how Greg Miller said that people who left Sarah behind were on "the right side of history", given this kind of implication... And by funny, I mean despicable.
If a writer doesn't have the backbone to defend their own character, then what's the point of even writing? There's no passion, there.
Tbh guys after everything that happened in amid the ruins , playing dead and Greg's lame attempt to justify himself over what happened.I am no longer excited and over joyed when episode 5 comes out.
Episode 5 will be a dull attempt to continue the cliffhanger of episode 4 and finish season 2 even though Nick Breck is the writer who had a hard time writing the finale which I'm sure he did and excellent job
TT247 I'm telling you Pizza and Ice cream will not come to existence.
The writing of deaths these past two episodes have been terrible. Yes, it is true that realistically deaths in a zombie apocalypse would occur randomly, sometimes too quick to react to and without dramatic build up but let's stop pretending that the deaths in The Walking Dead aren't written and constructed by someone. And that there's anything realistic about a zombie apocalypse in general.
Deaths in a game, tv show etc. don't create impact by just happening. Sure there's the initial shock value of the deaths themselves and how graphic they are and people can make declarations on how "no one is safe" in this world, but this is all temporary. For a death to have actual an emotional response in fiction the characters themselves must react to them. Would Lee's death have been as effective if Clementine had sat there emotionless, shot him, shrugged and left?
That sounds like an exaggeration but that was basically what happened with Nick and Sarah's deaths last episode. Not only is having all characters basically ignore their deaths terrible for their characterisation of others, but it's just piss poor from a writers stand point. You could make the case that Clementine is desensitised to the deaths now, but this still doesn't make sense for other characters like Rebecca and Bonnie who are shown to be compassionate, and Luke, who is almost in tears at the mention of a dog dying.
This all sounds like pretty basic writing 101 to me but it's something that some writers at Telltale don't seem to understand - or maybe they just don't care. And I'm not sure which is worse.
Totally agree with you all here. This interview really only confirmed my fears about Telltale's intentions (or lack of). They either were not thinking about this at all/just being lazy, or they were deliberately catering to fans like Greg who were demanding Sarah's blood.
Yeah even after playing episode 4 I still held onto some tiny hope that Telltale's mistakes were unintentional or that they were aware of them or were going to try to fix them etc etc. But really this interview just made me lose all hope in Telltale completely. I really don't want to give them any money for anything ever again. It's sad really.
Yes people keep arguing that the deaths were supposed to mean something, that they were supposed to be about the futility/fragility/danger of life etc.. But this is like zillionth time we've said this, this is not supposed to be real life. Real life is not obligated to be satisfying and purposeful. Good writing is.
Unfortunately, I think we know the answer to that.
$$$$$$
No, a death doesn't have to mean anything, and it certainly doesn't need to have a purpose. But no matter what, people WILL react to deaths, no matter how used they are to it.
To not write in any reaction about Sarah's and Nick's death is... just horrible writing, and I don't understand why no one at TTG reacted to that - "uh guys, so if Sarah just died, shouldn't my character say something about that?"
"Nah, it'll be fine. We'll laugh about it later in the after talks."
He would have made an excellent concentration camp guard I'm sure.
Did anybody at Telltale had a problem with Nick's & Sarah's deaths?
The voice actors, the animation team, the lead writers, Job,Melissa,Gavin ........anybody?
I'm sure that this season's staff did 10x less work than last season's...
If they did (and I'm sure at least one person would have) they wouldn't talk about it publicly, at least not while they're still employed by Telltale.
You know that whole "don't bite the hand that feeds you" thing. Plus I imagine it would be seen as quite unprofessional
I don't blame the writers of episdoe 3 and episode 4 for the fuck up they made.They really did awesome job only IF you look from a different perspective.(but the death of our two beloved can not be explained)
putting aside the events of episode 1 and 2 , episode 3 turns out to be an intriguing magnificent episode , and putting aside the events of episode 3 , episode 4 also turned out pretty well.
BUT when episode are put the together ,they will lack motives ,character(especially characters development) , intellect , logic.(Its like mixing some jelly , chocolate and fish in a pizza) , it lacks continuity and taste (Seriously)
We need to see that It's not the writers' fault they fucked up It's Telltale .The writers didn't have privileges and the full motive to expand the story (Like I said on a previous post I wrote) Pierre Shorrete and JT petty couldn't care less about character development and continuity because they didn't start season 2 , the story of season 2 isn't theirs from the beginning(Unlike Nick they do not care about minor details and background these two want to write a fast pasted meaningful story that lacks importance for minor background and characters).
P.S.:These The two writers sees the protagonist as the major important character in the story , so their main focus will be on Clementine and they do not care the involvement of minor characters.
TT247 you never know Nick Breckon MIGHT pull it off in episode 5
Edit:This is like the best thread I saw , looking at the comments and likes , people do think rationally
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I'm pretty sure Nick Breckon is definitely not happy about it.
About the characters, the way they got rid of Nick... disappointed and saddened me.
We saw Nick Breckon started an amazing arc on him but the others writers didn't saw the same thing. And the reason why I'm pissed off about this is because without too much effort , Nick could have become one the most lovable and complex character of the Walking Dead game.
Remember that Nick was the one who first made it possible to kill off Nick.
Doesn't it just feel wasteful? Pete told me to look out for Nick, I tried to be stern yet caring to Nick with the very little dialogue you have with him. His character has no resolution like Ben's did, just "Oops, I messed up again." Then dead. Its the same with Sarah, it looks like we're suppose to build relationships with these characters but its nothing but a big farce. Despite my teasing of the girl, I made sure I was a good friend to her and what does she say in return? "We're not friends." Then she winds up dead. It sucked seeing Nick zombified, especially when we don't see the struggle that occurred. All that (little) time trying to build them up is just thrown down the toilet.
It felt more disappointing than sad. I think you're right when you say Telltale doesn't care or understand, as long as Clementine is around they have their emotional cash cow and icon. All the world around her is fodder only to ascend her in the ranks of zombie killing goddess.
Two things:
No, Nick was nothing special - he was Ben with a new name and a new face, but his personality? A carbon copy.
But I agree that it was a fucked up way of killing him; we didn't get to see why or how, and that is something called a devil ex machina, which is just as bad as a deux ex machina. Bad, but it's also sloppy and incredibly lazy writing.
You have a point. But honestly, the fact is that I'm afraid I don't even really care anymore. This whole thing has just completely soured my view on Telltale, at this point I'm really not expecting anything more from them. Even if the finale is unbelievably great, they've still made these mistakes and lost all this potential that they can never get back.
And the way they seem to glorify the other characters while forgetting about everyone else really affects my opinion of them. Like in episode 1, Luke used to be my favorite, but I grew to love Nick and Sarah and let myself grow attached to them. But now they've just been killed off for no reason, and continue to be badmouthed by people like Greg who put them down to gush over Jane and Luke... idk combined with how I feel like Luke's suddenly turned into a different person this episode, I honestly could care less about him right now. I know how petty that sounds but that's how I feel lol.
When I first wrote this thread I kept fluctuating back and forth between wanting to think that there still was hope and that Telltale didn't intend for the writing to turn out the way it did. But this latest interview really only confirms what I was afraid was going on over there.
It's a videogame, not a real 15 year old, c'mon guys.
Even though I was very attached to Nick's character, I did not feel sad at all when he showed up dead in episode 4. I just felt angry. It was so obviously bad it just took me right out of the moment. It really set the tone for the rest of the episode.
And about Clem, I feel bad really. It's like Telltale thinks the characters around her are all being thrown away for her supposed development, but they don't make any effort to show HOW any of this personally affects her. She's been pretty much emotionless and static this whole season, no changes or growth to be seen. Not saying that she can't just be suppressing her feelings or something, but like most other characters this season, I'm convinced that the portrayal is less intentional and is more just a result of lazy writing.
I disagree that Nick was just "a new Ben". Sure, they may have had a similar habit of alienating themselves from the group and getting into trouble without thinking things through, but really I think all comparisons pretty much end there.
copy pasting yet again
It's pretty common knowledge that the media has an obvious effect on how people see and treat people in their lives. You can't excuse it because "it's an opinion" or "it's not real". These things have influence and effects, and they are very real.
Totally agree with you TT247. If Nick and sarah would still be alive, I'd actually care about the series. Imagine if they were still alive, I'd be shitting my pants and excited about episode 5... Telltale has lost their minds and basically killed off the characters that really did matter to the majority of us. It just fucking pisses me off so god damn much, they just shit on what i loved so much.
Actually, if you listened to the interview. The big guy says alot of people were excited and eager to exclude sarah from the group. He said the people back in the office were all like
I guess telltale doesn't give a shit about their characters.
Nick wasn't anything special? You better speak for yourself and that's YOUR opinion. Nick was seriously special and had so much potential.
Yes, even if you were not personally offended by their views, this was a very disappointing reveal to the fans. Not only will Telltale no longer bother defending their own character, but some of them actively want her dead? Ouch.
Yeah but it's not just because they're gone. It's the fact that they're gone with absolutely no consequence to the story or with anyone caring about them at all. Instead of being satisfying or even emotional in the least, both deaths were just a slap in the face. I wasn't even sad that they died, I was just blown away by how much they didn't matter. At this point their deaths honestly feel more like a bad dream. It's just unbelievable to me that Telltale chose to get rid of them like that.
Agree with @Ellias and @TT247 and mostly everyone,Sarah and Nick were the standout characters of season 2,they just seemed to come into there own in the previous episodes,they have become everything Telltale didn't want,they have took over the fan base,divided opinons,caused controversy,and sort of ruined the end of the season in their shitty written deaths.
Also i miss these 2 like real people,not fictional characters.
The only times I remember her being emotional was when talking about S1's events
Other than that, she gives off a frowny face every once in a while...
That's a good point, and it's why their deaths continue to confuse the shiz out of me. Sarah and Nick were probably the most talked-about characters in the fanbase. Until episode 3 Nick had a huge amount of character focus and screen time, arguably more so than anyone else in the cabin group besides Sarah, whose importance was also obvious. She was integral to just about every episode, and was very well developed. Then they are both suddenly killed off for no reason at all in a completely railroaded and emotionless way. It's just mindboggling to me. Purely from a storytelling perspective, why would you throw away these characters like that? They were so much more than what Telltale reduced them to. It just doesn't make any sense.
Well, there was also her reaction to Alvin's Ep3 death, her angrily telling Kenny she had to shoot Lee, her reaction to Sarah's death in the trailer park... There are quite a few examples, though it's kind of sad to see how much more detached the bright little girl we once knew has become
Yeah but it's not just that she's unemotional. It's just that the whole thing doesn't click with me. If this season is truly meant to be nothing more than a character study on Clementine herself, why not have the themes actually reflect this? Why not have the choices change Clementine's behavior, or affect the people around her? Why not take the time to reflect on how these situations personally affect her? Why would you have her react so unemotionally if you're supposed to be trying to show us her thoughts and growth and feelings? Clementine is never the focus, she is constantly overshadowed by the characters and situations we are presented with. If a character study is really meant to be the point of this season, it really should have been a bit more obvious.
What if episode 4 was a dream.
But seriously though.In real life and the fact there's survival in it , there would be no real story no real consequence (you are trying to survive and deal with shit coming your way , you are constantly facing the unpredictable and the unexpected) (anything that happens situation) that exactly what episode 4 was about realism and pragmatism.
what ever the opposite of the above statement is different , adding value into the story and keeping it a slow paced story unlike real life.
example about no real consequence to the story and living bet wen realism and fast paced writing.(I like to call it season 2 so far in a nutshell)
Episode 1:I lost Christa and I'm lost.......oh hey I met some assholes that locked in a shed.............. AND found some dead bodies and learned about someone named Carver.
Episode 2:Oh no we lost Pete and I'm alone in the cabin with a eccentric kid........................I met a notorious guy that was searching for the group......................what we are on the road already....................... Nick shot someone.....................OMG it's Kenny......................... oh shit we are surrounded......................I'm being held as a prisoner GREAT.
Episode 3:Great I'm in a prison for something I didn't do...........working real hard...............made a plan to get out of here.................. updated the plan TWICE................... my cheek hurts and Kenny got beaten......................I'm witnessing the gruesome death that someone I just met who was an asshole to the group and to me............... AND we are escaping
Episode 4:Lost Sarita................Talking to Jane..............Kenny is pissed as usual.................lost Nick meh.................Sarah is safe...............Talking to Jane..............Searching supplies for Rebecca.............Met a deceitful asshole..........Talking to Jane............Saw Jane and Luke............Baby is born oh yeah and we lost Sarah..................Rebecca is dead we are being held at gunpoint.
So far best story evaaa
bump double post.
I think that Telltale was certian that the average players would forget about those characters while waiting for a new episode.
That 2 month gap, man...
You're literally basing all of that off of the fact the two of them are depressed and make mistakes. Nick was sarcastic and had a dry sense of humor whereas Ben was very solemn, Nick was honest and very broken up at the idea over lying to Walter and only did it because Luke urged him whereas Ben lied to the group on his own accord, Nick willingly sacrificed himself for Clementine in a group of walkers whereas Ben ran and left her alone, Nick has a lot of insecurities and dynamics related to his family that trouble him (neglectful father, had to kill his mother, resentful yet loving relationship with Pete) whereas Ben had no issues with his family other than the fact he was troubled by not knowing if they're okay or not.
Nick and Ben are very, very different.
It's funny though...
The very first moment you say to Nick that he reminds of Ben (In the game EP2) he proves you wrong.By sacrificing himself , and agreeing with you about telling the truth to Walter...
I wish that above any of the other comments Greg Miller could see this one. Bravo, skoothz.