Yeah Lee was a bad man. He got a second chance in that police car. Basically Clementine changed him. No one should forgive him for what hes done, but I'd say he's been redeemed.
One comment I've seen a few times here is "Lee would kick Kenny's ass if he heard him speaking to Clem like that. .." or there abouts.
I lo… moreve Lee... love him. Broke my heart into a million pieces to say goodbye to the guy. And the more I play S1, the more attached I get. But let's not forget one thing here.
Lee is a murderer.
He was caught, he was convicted. He was found guilty and was on his way to jail for a very very very long time. Maybe even the death penalty.
But people forgave that because a/ he caught the guy sleeping with his wife. And b/ was kind to a little girl
Now if killing someone in anger isn't a reaction in the heat of the moment. I don't know what is?? Just because he was nice to a kid we can forgive him?
People here either condone rash actions or not. You can't side with Lee, but then go against a Kenny for doing the very thing Lee did that got him arrested. Nothing Kenny has said or done has compared to mur… [view original content]
You make Lee sound like a cold-hearted killer... he's not. If you caught your wife, sleeping with another man, you would act the same way. A… morend he didn't mean to actually kill him. He meant to just kick his ass a good bit. So you can't just say, he's a murderer. Yes he has killed someone, but you don't have to judge him in the name of a "murderer," Now on the other hand, Kenny's doing with Larry is pure murder. Why, because it was intentional as fuck and he did not have any problems with doing so. He didn't even try to save him, all he thought was kill the moment he caught that heart attack. Even if he wasn't revivable, you could do all you can and then had someone ready to bash his brains in with the saltlick one he starts turning. Kenny, is a "murderer"
But he is still... not a bad man. He never was a bad guy. Lee's family looked like they live really well, after all, they owned a pharmacy. Lee is also married and had a high paying job as a teacher. How could he possibly be a bad man?
Yeah Lee was a bad man. He got a second chance in that police car. Basically Clementine changed him. No one should forgive him for what hes done, but I'd say he's been redeemed.
Let's raise the point about how Lee was able to change... To adapt to a screwed up world in a way that makes sense! He realised that the world has gone to shit, and that every situation is potentially life-threatening. So you don't have time to have hissy fits in the middle of these situations!
If Kenny were to perhaps realise his mistakes, to realise the harm he has caused, to express any kind of remorse - and a change in future behaviour, then maybe I could deal with him a little easier. But no - he continues being a menace and danger to himself and everyone around him, because he has zero self-insight.
No one knows wether Larry was dead or not. And that's how telltale wants it. My point is, even if Larry was a live Kenny killing him was in … moreextenuating circumstances. Pre apocalypse he would not have caved in a guys head because he'd just had a heart attack! Kenny did the right thing. Wether you agree with it or not. if he had turned, Larry would have killed at least one of them. Salt licks are heavy! Not something you can throw at a moving target and expect a headshot. Not unless you're Mr Universe! Those size blocks weigh well over 20th. They were in a locked room with no weapons. How many do you think would have survived?
As for the reason for Lee committing murder changing depending on your play through? Does that make it ok then? If he accidentally killed.someone? He still killed them. He still set out to harm.them if not kill them. For no reason other than adultery.
Kenny wanted to kill Ben after he had caused the death of h… [view original content]
Thank you for noticing! I actually myself didn't really think about their similarities until I started getting really into this discussion, but you're right, it really does enforce that Kenny is in fact a tough as hell redneck. A lot of people have been saying that, "He needs to grow up," or, "He's completely insane and reckless," and, "He's not strong enough to move on," and blah blah blah, but I think that Kenny's doing a helluva good job continuing to survive and live without intentionally hurting anyone because of his suffering, unlike The Stranger. He also has done a good job being as mentally stable as he can, though yes, he has cracked a few times. It's to be expected: after all, he's lost his entire family, his girlfriend, and a few friends of his that he was close to (Lee, Matthew, Walter). The Stranger lost it completely, kept his wife's walker head in a bag and talked to her. Kenny's never done anything close to that, though yes, he may have mistakenly said Duck instead of Clementine when asking for the can. Still, he didn't remove Duck's head and talk to it, nor Katjaa's. So, you're welcome. FUEL TO FIGHT DA HATERS HAS BEEN GIFTED TO YOU. USE YOUR POWERS WISELY, YOUNG JEDI.
Just want to say I really like the comparison you made between the Stranger and Kenny. I can't believe I never noticed the similarities betw… moreeen their losses, that really was a solid point about how they both lost their whole families but went down such drastically different paths. It really enforces the fact that Kenny is one tough redneck, and his resiliency is on another level. Thanks for pointing that out, now I have more fuel to fight the haters with!:D
Than why didn't she use it? She could have easily dispatched that walker and got some more guts on her so no other walkers would be able to tell she was a human. Clementine managed to survive in the herd: an eleven-year old girl with one weapon, just like Sarita. Clem survived, Sarita didn't. Sarita was in her twenties. Clem, as I said, is eleven. ELEVEN. Sarita would have been able to survive if she had used her hatchet to kill any walkers that got in her way, as all of the rest of the group (with the exception of Carlos and Sarah) did. Sarita died for the same reason Carlos did: she wasn't thorough enough with her gut spreading, and she was recklessly moving around the herd and not walking, or walking too close to them. Her death, and Carlos' death, were their faults. I'm not saying I didn't love Sarita as a character, or that I don't wish she was still alive, but to be blaming someone else who wasn't even there when she died, when she could've protected herself, is simply not reasonable.
What Kenny said was strong, but he still cares deeply for Clem and would no doubt sacrifice himself for her should that situation arise.
Kenny just needed to offload his thoughts, 1 - Clem was the only one to approach him. 2 - Clem is the only who he has 'history' with, he doesn't know the rest of the group well. He knew Clem would have some understanding if he went into a rage mode. Whereas Bonnie, Jane, and Rebecca just couldn't handle that and would call him mad.
Kenny's been through more than the rest of the survivors put together, you have to cut him some slack and understanding.
Now you're really reaching here. It's not her 'fault' - it was bad luck. And I guess you didn't notice the bullet that blew out Carlos' throat, causing him to buckle over and scream in agony?
To be honest, it's contrivance and randomness that determines who gets noticed in the horde of zombies. Kenny screams and spends a minute crouched over a body while not at all getting into trouble. Sarah manages to run through the entire ocean of zombies. Sarita swings around trying to get the zombies near Sarah. Clementine gets noticed by random zombies and uses her speed and diminutive size to avoid getting caught.
The only thing I'd blame Sarita for in her own death is screaming when she gets her hand cut off, and that's understandable because she got her hand cut off.
Than why didn't she use it? She could have easily dispatched that walker and got some more guts on her so no other walkers would be able to … moretell she was a human. Clementine managed to survive in the herd: an eleven-year old girl with one weapon, just like Sarita. Clem survived, Sarita didn't. Sarita was in her twenties. Clem, as I said, is eleven. ELEVEN. Sarita would have been able to survive if she had used her hatchet to kill any walkers that got in her way, as all of the rest of the group (with the exception of Carlos and Sarah) did. Sarita died for the same reason Carlos did: she wasn't thorough enough with her gut spreading, and she was recklessly moving around the herd and not walking, or walking too close to them. Her death, and Carlos' death, were their faults. I'm not saying I didn't love Sarita as a character, or that I don't wish she was still alive, but to be blaming someone else who wasn't even there when she died, when she could've protected herself, is simply not reasonable.
I think Kenny's boastfulness and self-righteous attitude about Larry's death being The Right Thing was his way of covering up his guilt for killing a man.
We've seen already that Kenny seems to have a problem with putting people out of their misery. He brags and whines when Lee is humane enough to spare a screaming woman a long, agonizing death while Lilly supports Lee's decision, even if he restrained her during her father's death.
This is coming from someone who hates Kenny, but even I have to admit that killing Larry was necessary. He suffered a massive heart attack a… morend there were no supplies or equipment to help him. Like Lee said, "he was going, one way or another."
However, that does not mean I agree with how Kenny handled the situation at all. Outside of a brief, knee-jerk apology, he never ever ever shows a shred of remorse for what he did. Even if it was necessary, couldn't he have the courtesy to at least treat Lilly with some semblance of sensitivity immediately after his father's death? If you talk to Kenny after Larry's death, he has the gall to insinuate that Lilly will probably help the St. Johns kill them now because of what he did. Like, are you kidding me Kenny? Do you really think Lilly is so evil that she'd actually side with a bunch of cannibals? She is grieving because of her loved one's gruesome demise, not plotting your demise like some kind of… [view original content]
Stranger and Kenny were different situations. Kenny had new family and friends to support him when he lost his family while Stranger had no one, just a head in a bag and a vendetta.
If you want to compare Stranger and Kenny, you would need to know why Kenny didn't look for Clem's group at the end of Season 1, and what Kenny was like until he met Sarita. Even then, Kenny was probably just depressed, not going crazy with desire for revenge like the Stranger.
Just want to say I really like the comparison you made between the Stranger and Kenny. I can't believe I never noticed the similarities betw… moreeen their losses, that really was a solid point about how they both lost their whole families but went down such drastically different paths. It really enforces the fact that Kenny is one tough redneck, and his resiliency is on another level. Thanks for pointing that out, now I have more fuel to fight the haters with!:D
Good to know that we have such a smart, well spoken Kenny supporter on the forums. I have pretty much just stopped arguing about Kenny all together recently because you do such a good job
Just want to say I really like the comparison you made between the Stranger and Kenny. I can't believe I never noticed the similarities betw… moreeen their losses, that really was a solid point about how they both lost their whole families but went down such drastically different paths. It really enforces the fact that Kenny is one tough redneck, and his resiliency is on another level. Thanks for pointing that out, now I have more fuel to fight the haters with!:D
But he is still... not a bad man. He never was a bad guy. Lee's family looked like they live really well, after all, they owned a pharmacy. Lee is also married and had a high paying job as a teacher. How could he possibly be a bad man?
I didn't feel like Christa hated me, but it seemed she might have just experienced a vicious downward spiral. Maybe a part of Christa resents Clem for leaving her gun unattended, but another part resents herself for not going to check on Clem with Omid, and another part resents Omid simply for dying and leaving her, and all of it hurts a little less if she shuts herself off, emotionally and socially (which probably has the unfortunate effect of making Clem feel like a piece of baggage).
People show grief in different ways. Some throw screaming tantrums, others turn to drink, or become catatonic, or bottle it up for the sake… more of moving on. I don't dislike Kenny for making children share his misery because I understand it to be his grieving mechanism, but I do dislike how his behavior is vehemently defended and excused by fans while other characters' reactions are undermined. People can do shitty things without having it be twisted into something excusable.
Sarita was bitten trying to protect Sarah. When Carlos is shot in the jugular and eaten alive, she screams, which is perfectly understandable. She begins killing walkers around Sarah to protect her, as you can see during Carlos's death, Sarita sees this and starts creeping up behind a walker, she kills it when Sarah finishes screaming, and then she is bitten around 30 seconds later, because she started attacking the walkers, giving away her disguise.
she had a hammer and to add kenny knows how his loved ones died and knows they never turned clementine went over 3 months before she knew h… moreer parents were dead and still has to think that someday they might run into them again and they will try to kill her and maybe even lee to if you didn't shoot him that is what clementine lives with everyday that is her nightmare
I was probably a bit worse in my first playthrough depending on how you view it. I also chopped Sarita's arm off and in the heat of the moment took the first chance I got to axe Sarita. My figuring at the time was Kenny was making enough (perfectly understandable) noise (I could sympathize with), and the walkers will take an interest in him very soon like they did when Carlos whispered to his daughter.
But all that backlash and Sarita dying quickly anyway really did a good job of making me feel like I massively screwed up. All for thinking the situation might have the chance to be like Lee's.
I honestly feel so bad for Kenny. He's been through so much shit, and I know - "who hasn't?", but he seems to take quite a few extra beating… mores. I can't say anyone else has lost as much as he has in these two seasons, and I don't blame him at all for lashing out at Clem. If the past episodes are an indicator of anything, then yes, Kenny is a bit of a loose cannon and loses his temper quite easily, sometimes at the wrong person, but considering all the shit he's been through, I think he handled his grief well enough.
And compared to what all the other members of the group puts Clem through on a daily basis, all the "we're grown adults, but help us do everything, 11-year-old child!" bullshit Clem takes without a word from the others, I really don't think Kenny blaming her for Sarita's death is that bad, considering she is somewhat responsible. In my playthrough I did chop her arm off, and in the heat of the moment I do understand why he would … [view original content]
What do you mean Lee murdering the man who slept with his wife varies? As far as I could tell, the game doesn't retroactively imply different scenarios based on your actions. Yes, you as the player can choose to divulge or withhold information from Carley and/or the Stranger on this point. But I never saw the story change.
But depending on how you play the game Lee murdering the man who slept with his wife varies. It can be in a blind fit or rage, self defense … moreor an accident depending on your actions. Also LARRY's death WAS Murder. Kenny wanted to murder him despite the fact that LILLY was telling them he's NOT dead.
Idk about you, but I think a woman who's LIVED with her father for decades and knows his medical condition/seen his condition at its worst is a better judge of character than the madman flipping the fuck out and screaming that we have to murder him. Also People live from heart attacks all the time.
Kenny is a murderer. Kenny's temper and Moodiness causes him to abandon you and many other characters multiple times.
-He condemns Ben to death despite the fact that Ben's actions only INDIRECTLY caused Duck to get bit.
-All the times he ditches you if you don't agree with his actions once, then you have to plead to his good side. (Looking fo… [view original content]
What I'm sayin is that if he is at that type of level, then that means Lee must've of been a good person. You can't possibly live like that if you were a douchebag
Thank you for noticing! I actually myself didn't really think about their similarities until I started getting really into this discussion, … morebut you're right, it really does enforce that Kenny is in fact a tough as hell redneck. A lot of people have been saying that, "He needs to grow up," or, "He's completely insane and reckless," and, "He's not strong enough to move on," and blah blah blah, but I think that Kenny's doing a helluva good job continuing to survive and live without intentionally hurting anyone because of his suffering, unlike The Stranger. He also has done a good job being as mentally stable as he can, though yes, he has cracked a few times. It's to be expected: after all, he's lost his entire family, his girlfriend, and a few friends of his that he was close to (Lee, Matthew, Walter). The Stranger lost it completely, kept his wife's walker head in a bag and talked to her. Kenny's never done anything close to that, though yes, h… [view original content]
Oh wow, thank you so much for saying that! Before I started participating in the forums, I would lurk through the threads. And I must say I always appreciated the way you conveyed your viewpoint and how you responded to the detractors so civilly, even when they were rude. I've strived to conduct myself in a similar manner since joining, so it really means a lot to hear that from you.:) My love for Kenny's character is everlasting, I don't plan to stop refuting the haters' arguments anytime soon!:D
now I have more fuel to fight the haters with!
Good to know that we have such a smart, well spoken Kenny supporter on the forums. I have pretty much just stopped arguing about Kenny all together recently because you do such a good job
Their situations are not identical, but you can't deny the similarities, nor the parallels. Both the Stranger and Kenny had a wife and child( though the Stranger had 2 children) that they were responsible for protecting, and providing for. The Stranger and Kenny are the only characters in season 1 who had a full family unit, and then lost that family gruesomely in less than a day or two. Both the Stranger's wife and Katjaa questioned their husbands actions to protect them and their kids, albeit Katjaa was less vocal about it with Kenny. After losing their families right in front of them, both Kenny and the Stranger fall into a depression and become enraged with what this new world has taken from them. Both are aware they played a part in their families' fate but are in denial of acknowledging it. Instead the Stranger focuses all his attention on rebuilding his family and getting revenge, while Kenny sets his mind on fulfilling the original plan by getting a boat. Both are under the impression that succeeding in these goals will make them feel better, but in reality they won't.
You are right Kenny did have a support group around him, and the Stranger did not. If it hadn't been for the people around him, Kenny may have gone down a similar path as the Stranger. I personally think he wouldn't have lost his mind even if he didn't have the group, because unlike the Stranger, Kenny was confident in his decisions, and is much stronger physically and mentally. I know they aren't the same situation, but I definitely see the Stranger's arc as a foil to Kenny's character.
We have no way of knowing what happened in those 2 years unless TellTale gives us an explanation which I doubt they will. All we can do is speculate, which doesn't really give a solid foundation for debate on either sides.
Stranger and Kenny were different situations. Kenny had new family and friends to support him when he lost his family while Stranger had no … moreone, just a head in a bag and a vendetta.
If you want to compare Stranger and Kenny, you would need to know why Kenny didn't look for Clem's group at the end of Season 1, and what Kenny was like until he met Sarita. Even then, Kenny was probably just depressed, not going crazy with desire for revenge like the Stranger.
clem has bin through alot to and does she do that no and she knows her parents are walkers and has to live with it kenny knows his family won't come back remember the hospital roof he has relief knowing that they are not out there thats more then clem has
What Kenny said was strong, but he still cares deeply for Clem and would no doubt sacrifice himself for her should that situation arise.
Ke… morenny just needed to offload his thoughts, 1 - Clem was the only one to approach him. 2 - Clem is the only who he has 'history' with, he doesn't know the rest of the group well. He knew Clem would have some understanding if he went into a rage mode. Whereas Bonnie, Jane, and Rebecca just couldn't handle that and would call him mad.
Kenny's been through more than the rest of the survivors put together, you have to cut him some slack and understanding.
Meh... Kenny is a psycho. Grief is not an excuse for being an jerk. He was never a particularly great thinker, but he obviously has had too many wires cross, and his head is a mess. He probably has some major brain injuries from that beating carver gave him too.
I wouldn't be surprised if he ditched the group just like he did lee, omid Christa and Clem last season.
I agree that Clem doesn't do that, but that's down to two things.
Clem is 11, so if she goes into a mood, people wouldn't take her seriously, or feel as intimidated. People would just rub her off as a kid. Making it pointless for Clem to do so.
She was brought up by Lee, Christa and Omid, who's temperaments are complete opposite to Kenny's.
clem has bin through alot to and does she do that no and she knows her parents are walkers and has to live with it kenny knows his family wo… moren't come back remember the hospital roof he has relief knowing that they are not out there thats more then clem has
That's true. I sometimes really felt like killing somebody I got into a fight with but what stopped me were the consequences and the feeling that, it's not right to kill in our society because there are other ways available for us to fix problems rather than violence.
If I was in a ZA, I wouldn't think of the first reason I mentionned and I sure wouldn't think about the other one - it'd be all so much easier all of a sudden to kill somebody.
What happened with the senator was a fight that ended up badly, Lee feels bad for it and even accepts his punishment. He truly understands that although the ZA is bad, he's been given a second chance. After killing one guy before the ZA, he had to die saving one during the ZA.
What I'm sayin is that if he is at that type of level, then that means Lee must've of been a good person. You can't possibly live like that if you were a douchebag
At this point, however, I think Clementine 'losing it' and verbally tearing down Luke and Kenny would bear a lot more weight. She's already proven herself to be exceedingly accomplished and mature for her age, and both men ask for her support on their decisions.
If Kenny is the one who shoots Rebecca, I can see it being possible for you to call him out on that.
I agree that Clem doesn't do that, but that's down to two things.
* Clem is 11, so if she goes into a mood, people wouldn't take her se… moreriously, or feel as intimidated. People would just rub her off as a kid. Making it pointless for Clem to do so.
* She was brought up by Lee, Christa and Omid, who's temperaments are complete opposite to Kenny's.
I admit, if Clementine verbally had a go at Kenny and Luke it would have an effect, BUT only if was from an UPSET Clem not an ANGRY Clem. Still you make a good point.
At this point, however, I think Clementine 'losing it' and verbally tearing down Luke and Kenny would bear a lot more weight. She's already… more proven herself to be exceedingly accomplished and mature for her age, and both men ask for her support on their decisions.
If Kenny is the one who shoots Rebecca, I can see it being possible for you to call him out on that.
Hell, you might even get through to Kenny if you call him out on shooting Rebecca. Just as Clem got Sarita killed by thinking rashly and chopping her arm off, Kenny started the shootout by killing Rebecca without anyone else realizing why he did it. In both scenarios, their well-intentioned actions lead to unwanted death and pain.
I admit, if Clementine verbally had a go at Kenny and Luke it would have an effect, BUT only if was from an UPSET Clem not an ANGRY Clem. Still you make a good point.
Kenny may though have the upper ground on this one, because Rebecca was fully turned this time and not just bitten unlike Sarita. Be careful though, you could turn this on its head and have Kenny having a go at Clem AGAIN, if she shot Rebecca.
Hell, you might even get through to Kenny if you call him out on shooting Rebecca. Just as Clem got Sarita killed by thinking rashly and ch… moreopping her arm off, Kenny started the shootout by killing Rebecca without anyone else realizing why he did it. In both scenarios, their well-intentioned actions lead to unwanted death and pain.
Kenny may though have the upper ground on this one, because Rebecca was fully turned this time and not just bitten unlike Sarita. Be careful though, you could turn this on its head and have Kenny having a go at Clem AGAIN, if she shot Rebecca.
That I can agree with you on, but I just don't want a repeat of Kenny hating Clem for the start of the episode, or any other group members for that fact. After this gunfight, I'd rather their wasn't anymore fighting in-group, but that's probably just a pipe dream. Well, if there's any group left.
I do hope the episode can let you finally force Luke and Kenny to stop fighting. If you were to shoot Rebecca, perhaps Kenny himself might defend your decision against Luke. After all, he'd understand that Clem did it to protect 'his' adoptive son.
That I can agree with you on, but I just don't want a repeat of Kenny hating Clem for the start of the episode, or any other group members f… moreor that fact. After this gunfight, I'd rather their wasn't anymore fighting in-group, but that's probably just a pipe dream. Well, if there's any group left.
I do think that if there isn't a Kenny/Luke option of who to save. Then there maybe will be a chance to end the fighting or make it worse, resulting in one of their deaths. ???. But I think you've got the last bit right. I know Luke will not like that Clem/Kenny shot Rebecca. However maybe Kenny will only defend you if you've stuck by him, much like Season 1. But I hope that regardless he defends Clem anyway, much like I was arguing in the first place.
I do hope the episode can let you finally force Luke and Kenny to stop fighting. If you were to shoot Rebecca, perhaps Kenny himself might defend your decision against Luke. After all, he'd understand that Clem did it to protect 'his' adoptive son.
I'm pretty sure I've already answered this for you in a different thread, but I'll answer it here too. Like Katjaa and Duck, Sarita is one if Kenny's loved ones, she is part of his family. Every character whose had a family member bitten(Nick's Mom) or is going to turn inevitably(Lilly's Dad) has struggled with the task to put them down. Lilly thankfully didn't have to kill Larry, but Nick had to put down his Mom. And we all saw how badly that affected him. I'd argue that if you chose to have Clem shoot Lee, that having to do that caused her to become the stoic person she is now. We even have the choice to have Lee shoot Duck instead of Kenny to spare his last memory of Duck being him shooting his own son. Of course Kenny saw that Sarita was suffering, but its quite obvious he's still in a state of shock and denial. He even says that he wanted to wait just in case she turned out alright. in hindsight one can look back and think "I should've done this", or "why didn't I do this when it hurt others around me so much?" Etc. That's why they call it 20/20 hindsight. But in the heat of the moment we don't always have the luxury of thinking clearly or realizing how much another is suffering due to our indecisiveness. All Kenny could see and comprehend that moment is that he was losing someone he loved again. Him not being able to stab/bash/shoot her in the head doesn't mean he didn't love Sarita. You seem to be under the impression that bashing a person's head in, or shooting them in the head is easier to do if its a family member/someone you love. If you really think this you are in need of a wake up call.
One question. Can anyone justify Kenny refusing to put Sarita out of her misery? If Sarita makes it out of the herd, she begs Kenny offscree… moren to kill her so she doesn't suffer. Kenny opts not to, ignoring reality and his responsibilities. I might forgive Kenny for his outburst one day provided he apologize in Episode 5, seeing as his optional apology in Episode 4 proves he knows he was wrong to blame Clem on some level. But what he did to Sarita, condemning the woman he supposedly loved to a slow and agonizing death out of stupidity and weakness is something I'll never let him live down.
Kenny wasn't strong enough to chop Sarita's arm off to save her. Even if you spare her, he's too focused on angsting to actually do anything to help HER or anyone else - he even gives you shit for it.
I'd say that Kenny's reaction becomes slightly more sympathetic for the players who amputated Sarita's arm. At least then Clementine actually did something worth getting angry about.
I'm pretty sure I've already answered this for you in a different thread, but I'll answer it here too. Like Katjaa and Duck, Sarita is one i… moref Kenny's loved ones, she is part of his family. Every character whose had a family member bitten(Nick's Mom) or is going to turn inevitably(Lilly's Dad) has struggled with the task to put them down. Lilly thankfully didn't have to kill Larry, but Nick had to put down his Mom. And we all saw how badly that affected him. I'd argue that if you chose to have Clem shoot Lee, that having to do that caused her to become the stoic person she is now. We even have the choice to have Lee shoot Duck instead of Kenny to spare his last memory of Duck being him shooting his own son. Of course Kenny saw that Sarita was suffering, but its quite obvious he's still in a state of shock and denial. He even says that he wanted to wait just in case she turned out alright. in hindsight one can look back and think "I should've d… [view original content]
true but clem was all ways a quite girl who kept her pain inside so as not to couse trouble for otfers but she is in pain all the time remember she breaks in episode 1 and shares her pain with luke thats how she feels all the time now she has saritea to with that
I agree that Clem doesn't do that, but that's down to two things.
* Clem is 11, so if she goes into a mood, people wouldn't take her se… moreriously, or feel as intimidated. People would just rub her off as a kid. Making it pointless for Clem to do so.
* She was brought up by Lee, Christa and Omid, who's temperaments are complete opposite to Kenny's.
By 'Quite' I suppose you mean 'Quiet', I agree that in this Season she has kept all her emotional pain inside, with just a few 'hiccups' showing, the incident with Luke you mention, talking with Kenny about Christa and in the Tent about Lee. I don't think she was overly saddened over Sarita but more Kenny's reaction to it, Clem still thinks she did the right thing, but she didn't expect Kenny to say what he said.
true but clem was all ways a quite girl who kept her pain inside so as not to couse trouble for otfers but she is in pain all the time remem… moreber she breaks in episode 1 and shares her pain with luke thats how she feels all the time now she has saritea to with that
Uhh Kenny wasn't even there when Sarita was being bit by the walker so I don't see how he's supposed to make that decision when he wasn't even there? That's why Clem had the choice to kill the walker or cut off Sarita's arm.
Because he just saw his lover get mauled by walkers, how the hell is he supposed to process that he's losing his loved one and come to terms with that in less than 5 seconds whilst in the middle of a herd and people are shooting at them? He is in shock, of course he's too focused on "angsting". What do you want him to do, thank Clem for sparing her/cutting her arm off? We as viewers can see that Clem was only doing what she could to help, but do you really expect the person who is in the process of losing someone to realize that? I don't think anyone could have that kind of detached insight on such a high stress situation.
Kenny has every right to be angry whether Sarita's arm is intact or not. That is how some people deal with pain and loss. He was not right in how he spoke to Clem, but the anger itself is justified.
Kenny wasn't strong enough to chop Sarita's arm off to save her. Even if you spare her, he's too focused on angsting to actually do anythin… moreg to help HER or anyone else - he even gives you shit for it.
I'd say that Kenny's reaction becomes slightly more sympathetic for the players who amputated Sarita's arm. At least then Clementine actually did something worth getting angry about.
Comments
Yeah Lee was a bad man. He got a second chance in that police car. Basically Clementine changed him. No one should forgive him for what hes done, but I'd say he's been redeemed.
The point is Lee was a bad man, but Clementine changed him.
But he is still... not a bad man. He never was a bad guy. Lee's family looked like they live really well, after all, they owned a pharmacy. Lee is also married and had a high paying job as a teacher. How could he possibly be a bad man?
Let's raise the point about how Lee was able to change... To adapt to a screwed up world in a way that makes sense! He realised that the world has gone to shit, and that every situation is potentially life-threatening. So you don't have time to have hissy fits in the middle of these situations!
If Kenny were to perhaps realise his mistakes, to realise the harm he has caused, to express any kind of remorse - and a change in future behaviour, then maybe I could deal with him a little easier. But no - he continues being a menace and danger to himself and everyone around him, because he has zero self-insight.
Thank you for noticing! I actually myself didn't really think about their similarities until I started getting really into this discussion, but you're right, it really does enforce that Kenny is in fact a tough as hell redneck. A lot of people have been saying that, "He needs to grow up," or, "He's completely insane and reckless," and, "He's not strong enough to move on," and blah blah blah, but I think that Kenny's doing a helluva good job continuing to survive and live without intentionally hurting anyone because of his suffering, unlike The Stranger. He also has done a good job being as mentally stable as he can, though yes, he has cracked a few times. It's to be expected: after all, he's lost his entire family, his girlfriend, and a few friends of his that he was close to (Lee, Matthew, Walter). The Stranger lost it completely, kept his wife's walker head in a bag and talked to her. Kenny's never done anything close to that, though yes, he may have mistakenly said Duck instead of Clementine when asking for the can. Still, he didn't remove Duck's head and talk to it, nor Katjaa's. So, you're welcome. FUEL TO FIGHT DA HATERS HAS BEEN GIFTED TO YOU. USE YOUR POWERS WISELY, YOUNG JEDI.
Than why didn't she use it? She could have easily dispatched that walker and got some more guts on her so no other walkers would be able to tell she was a human. Clementine managed to survive in the herd: an eleven-year old girl with one weapon, just like Sarita. Clem survived, Sarita didn't. Sarita was in her twenties. Clem, as I said, is eleven. ELEVEN. Sarita would have been able to survive if she had used her hatchet to kill any walkers that got in her way, as all of the rest of the group (with the exception of Carlos and Sarah) did. Sarita died for the same reason Carlos did: she wasn't thorough enough with her gut spreading, and she was recklessly moving around the herd and not walking, or walking too close to them. Her death, and Carlos' death, were their faults. I'm not saying I didn't love Sarita as a character, or that I don't wish she was still alive, but to be blaming someone else who wasn't even there when she died, when she could've protected herself, is simply not reasonable.
What Kenny said was strong, but he still cares deeply for Clem and would no doubt sacrifice himself for her should that situation arise.
Kenny just needed to offload his thoughts, 1 - Clem was the only one to approach him. 2 - Clem is the only who he has 'history' with, he doesn't know the rest of the group well. He knew Clem would have some understanding if he went into a rage mode. Whereas Bonnie, Jane, and Rebecca just couldn't handle that and would call him mad.
Kenny's been through more than the rest of the survivors put together, you have to cut him some slack and understanding.
Now you're really reaching here. It's not her 'fault' - it was bad luck. And I guess you didn't notice the bullet that blew out Carlos' throat, causing him to buckle over and scream in agony?
To be honest, it's contrivance and randomness that determines who gets noticed in the horde of zombies. Kenny screams and spends a minute crouched over a body while not at all getting into trouble. Sarah manages to run through the entire ocean of zombies. Sarita swings around trying to get the zombies near Sarah. Clementine gets noticed by random zombies and uses her speed and diminutive size to avoid getting caught.
The only thing I'd blame Sarita for in her own death is screaming when she gets her hand cut off, and that's understandable because she got her hand cut off.
I think Kenny's boastfulness and self-righteous attitude about Larry's death being The Right Thing was his way of covering up his guilt for killing a man.
We've seen already that Kenny seems to have a problem with putting people out of their misery. He brags and whines when Lee is humane enough to spare a screaming woman a long, agonizing death while Lilly supports Lee's decision, even if he restrained her during her father's death.
Stranger and Kenny were different situations. Kenny had new family and friends to support him when he lost his family while Stranger had no one, just a head in a bag and a vendetta.
If you want to compare Stranger and Kenny, you would need to know why Kenny didn't look for Clem's group at the end of Season 1, and what Kenny was like until he met Sarita. Even then, Kenny was probably just depressed, not going crazy with desire for revenge like the Stranger.
Good to know that we have such a smart, well spoken Kenny supporter on the forums. I have pretty much just stopped arguing about Kenny all together recently because you do such a good job
So.
If your family lives really well and own a pharmacy, you're married and you have a high paying job, you can't be a bad person?
I didn't feel like Christa hated me, but it seemed she might have just experienced a vicious downward spiral. Maybe a part of Christa resents Clem for leaving her gun unattended, but another part resents herself for not going to check on Clem with Omid, and another part resents Omid simply for dying and leaving her, and all of it hurts a little less if she shuts herself off, emotionally and socially (which probably has the unfortunate effect of making Clem feel like a piece of baggage).
Interestingly enough, Kenny has all four of those reactions in the first season.
Sarita was bitten trying to protect Sarah. When Carlos is shot in the jugular and eaten alive, she screams, which is perfectly understandable. She begins killing walkers around Sarah to protect her, as you can see during Carlos's death, Sarita sees this and starts creeping up behind a walker, she kills it when Sarah finishes screaming, and then she is bitten around 30 seconds later, because she started attacking the walkers, giving away her disguise.
Well said.
I was probably a bit worse in my first playthrough depending on how you view it. I also chopped Sarita's arm off and in the heat of the moment took the first chance I got to axe Sarita. My figuring at the time was Kenny was making enough (perfectly understandable) noise (I could sympathize with), and the walkers will take an interest in him very soon like they did when Carlos whispered to his daughter.
But all that backlash and Sarita dying quickly anyway really did a good job of making me feel like I massively screwed up. All for thinking the situation might have the chance to be like Lee's.
What do you mean Lee murdering the man who slept with his wife varies? As far as I could tell, the game doesn't retroactively imply different scenarios based on your actions. Yes, you as the player can choose to divulge or withhold information from Carley and/or the Stranger on this point. But I never saw the story change.
What I'm sayin is that if he is at that type of level, then that means Lee must've of been a good person. You can't possibly live like that if you were a douchebag
I completely agree. I swear you are reading my mind! I SHALL USE THE FORCE ONLY FOR GOOD, THANK YOU MASTER HAVEN FOR YOUR KIND WORDS.
Oh wow, thank you so much for saying that! Before I started participating in the forums, I would lurk through the threads. And I must say I always appreciated the way you conveyed your viewpoint and how you responded to the detractors so civilly, even when they were rude. I've strived to conduct myself in a similar manner since joining, so it really means a lot to hear that from you.:) My love for Kenny's character is everlasting, I don't plan to stop refuting the haters' arguments anytime soon!:D
Their situations are not identical, but you can't deny the similarities, nor the parallels. Both the Stranger and Kenny had a wife and child( though the Stranger had 2 children) that they were responsible for protecting, and providing for. The Stranger and Kenny are the only characters in season 1 who had a full family unit, and then lost that family gruesomely in less than a day or two. Both the Stranger's wife and Katjaa questioned their husbands actions to protect them and their kids, albeit Katjaa was less vocal about it with Kenny. After losing their families right in front of them, both Kenny and the Stranger fall into a depression and become enraged with what this new world has taken from them. Both are aware they played a part in their families' fate but are in denial of acknowledging it. Instead the Stranger focuses all his attention on rebuilding his family and getting revenge, while Kenny sets his mind on fulfilling the original plan by getting a boat. Both are under the impression that succeeding in these goals will make them feel better, but in reality they won't.
You are right Kenny did have a support group around him, and the Stranger did not. If it hadn't been for the people around him, Kenny may have gone down a similar path as the Stranger. I personally think he wouldn't have lost his mind even if he didn't have the group, because unlike the Stranger, Kenny was confident in his decisions, and is much stronger physically and mentally. I know they aren't the same situation, but I definitely see the Stranger's arc as a foil to Kenny's character.
We have no way of knowing what happened in those 2 years unless TellTale gives us an explanation which I doubt they will. All we can do is speculate, which doesn't really give a solid foundation for debate on either sides.
clem has bin through alot to and does she do that no and she knows her parents are walkers and has to live with it kenny knows his family won't come back remember the hospital roof he has relief knowing that they are not out there thats more then clem has
Meh... Kenny is a psycho. Grief is not an excuse for being an jerk. He was never a particularly great thinker, but he obviously has had too many wires cross, and his head is a mess. He probably has some major brain injuries from that beating carver gave him too.
I wouldn't be surprised if he ditched the group just like he did lee, omid Christa and Clem last season.
I agree that Clem doesn't do that, but that's down to two things.
That's true. I sometimes really felt like killing somebody I got into a fight with but what stopped me were the consequences and the feeling that, it's not right to kill in our society because there are other ways available for us to fix problems rather than violence.
If I was in a ZA, I wouldn't think of the first reason I mentionned and I sure wouldn't think about the other one - it'd be all so much easier all of a sudden to kill somebody.
You can.
What happened with the senator was a fight that ended up badly, Lee feels bad for it and even accepts his punishment. He truly understands that although the ZA is bad, he's been given a second chance. After killing one guy before the ZA, he had to die saving one during the ZA.
At this point, however, I think Clementine 'losing it' and verbally tearing down Luke and Kenny would bear a lot more weight. She's already proven herself to be exceedingly accomplished and mature for her age, and both men ask for her support on their decisions.
If Kenny is the one who shoots Rebecca, I can see it being possible for you to call him out on that.
I admit, if Clementine verbally had a go at Kenny and Luke it would have an effect, BUT only if was from an UPSET Clem not an ANGRY Clem. Still you make a good point.
Hell, you might even get through to Kenny if you call him out on shooting Rebecca. Just as Clem got Sarita killed by thinking rashly and chopping her arm off, Kenny started the shootout by killing Rebecca without anyone else realizing why he did it. In both scenarios, their well-intentioned actions lead to unwanted death and pain.
Kenny may though have the upper ground on this one, because Rebecca was fully turned this time and not just bitten unlike Sarita. Be careful though, you could turn this on its head and have Kenny having a go at Clem AGAIN, if she shot Rebecca.
Either way, I'm sure whoever shot first in that gunfight would get the blame.
That I can agree with you on, but I just don't want a repeat of Kenny hating Clem for the start of the episode, or any other group members for that fact. After this gunfight, I'd rather their wasn't anymore fighting in-group, but that's probably just a pipe dream. Well, if there's any group left.
I do hope the episode can let you finally force Luke and Kenny to stop fighting. If you were to shoot Rebecca, perhaps Kenny himself might defend your decision against Luke. After all, he'd understand that Clem did it to protect 'his' adoptive son.
I do think that if there isn't a Kenny/Luke option of who to save. Then there maybe will be a chance to end the fighting or make it worse, resulting in one of their deaths. ???. But I think you've got the last bit right. I know Luke will not like that Clem/Kenny shot Rebecca. However maybe Kenny will only defend you if you've stuck by him, much like Season 1. But I hope that regardless he defends Clem anyway, much like I was arguing in the first place.
I'm pretty sure I've already answered this for you in a different thread, but I'll answer it here too. Like Katjaa and Duck, Sarita is one if Kenny's loved ones, she is part of his family. Every character whose had a family member bitten(Nick's Mom) or is going to turn inevitably(Lilly's Dad) has struggled with the task to put them down. Lilly thankfully didn't have to kill Larry, but Nick had to put down his Mom. And we all saw how badly that affected him. I'd argue that if you chose to have Clem shoot Lee, that having to do that caused her to become the stoic person she is now. We even have the choice to have Lee shoot Duck instead of Kenny to spare his last memory of Duck being him shooting his own son. Of course Kenny saw that Sarita was suffering, but its quite obvious he's still in a state of shock and denial. He even says that he wanted to wait just in case she turned out alright. in hindsight one can look back and think "I should've done this", or "why didn't I do this when it hurt others around me so much?" Etc. That's why they call it 20/20 hindsight. But in the heat of the moment we don't always have the luxury of thinking clearly or realizing how much another is suffering due to our indecisiveness. All Kenny could see and comprehend that moment is that he was losing someone he loved again. Him not being able to stab/bash/shoot her in the head doesn't mean he didn't love Sarita. You seem to be under the impression that bashing a person's head in, or shooting them in the head is easier to do if its a family member/someone you love. If you really think this you are in need of a wake up call.
or lets put kenny in there and take out lee what would he do if he saw his wife in bed with aother man.
Kenny wasn't strong enough to chop Sarita's arm off to save her. Even if you spare her, he's too focused on angsting to actually do anything to help HER or anyone else - he even gives you shit for it.
I'd say that Kenny's reaction becomes slightly more sympathetic for the players who amputated Sarita's arm. At least then Clementine actually did something worth getting angry about.
true but clem was all ways a quite girl who kept her pain inside so as not to couse trouble for otfers but she is in pain all the time remember she breaks in episode 1 and shares her pain with luke thats how she feels all the time now she has saritea to with that
By 'Quite' I suppose you mean 'Quiet', I agree that in this Season she has kept all her emotional pain inside, with just a few 'hiccups' showing, the incident with Luke you mention, talking with Kenny about Christa and in the Tent about Lee. I don't think she was overly saddened over Sarita but more Kenny's reaction to it, Clem still thinks she did the right thing, but she didn't expect Kenny to say what he said.
Uhh Kenny wasn't even there when Sarita was being bit by the walker so I don't see how he's supposed to make that decision when he wasn't even there? That's why Clem had the choice to kill the walker or cut off Sarita's arm.
Because he just saw his lover get mauled by walkers, how the hell is he supposed to process that he's losing his loved one and come to terms with that in less than 5 seconds whilst in the middle of a herd and people are shooting at them? He is in shock, of course he's too focused on "angsting". What do you want him to do, thank Clem for sparing her/cutting her arm off? We as viewers can see that Clem was only doing what she could to help, but do you really expect the person who is in the process of losing someone to realize that? I don't think anyone could have that kind of detached insight on such a high stress situation.
Kenny has every right to be angry whether Sarita's arm is intact or not. That is how some people deal with pain and loss. He was not right in how he spoke to Clem, but the anger itself is justified.