Clem is Already Going to the Dark Side, and it's Wonderful!
When I first played the scene where you have to deal with Sarah in the trailer house, I reacted like this:
[Slap Sarah]
"What?! No!"
[Leave Sarah]
Clicks Slap Sarah
"OMG, what have I done?! I slapped Sarah! But the only other option was to leave her! But she JUST got slapped by her dad and now her best friend? But I saved her life! Did I? Or did I just ruin it? But I had to save her! I’m a horrible person! But there was no good option!”
And that’s a fact. There was no good option.
After my initial distress, I wrote off the slap as a cliché; characters are often slapped to snap them out of it. But then I wrote a post about Clementine remaining the playable character in future seasons. I wrote about how choices skew towards whatever the character really would choose (keeping the character in-character). And I wrote about how it would be interesting if Clem went down a dark path before going down a heroic one.
And then, I realized the slap/leave options were obviously skewed dark. Both are bad. Neither is good. Therefore, she’s already going down the dark path!
Let me elaborate on why the slap was so dark and why it was necessary for Clem’s characterization.
It was definitely not the only way to save Sarah. Or at least, it was not the only way to TRY to save Sarah. It was the only option we were given, but just think about what else could have happened.
Imagine if the choices had been [Leave Sarah] and [Protect Sarah]. Choosing Protect Sarah, Clementine could have turned on her Lee Everett Fight Mode, and fought off the zombie’s coming through the door. Then, Sarah would see that Clementine was protecting her. Sarah would see that her dad wasn’t the only person who would ever be there for her. And Sarah would snap out of it. She’d climb through the skylight and Clem would follow her up.
And I’d even wager that Sarah’s recovery after that point would have progressed much better. Maybe if she’d seen the lengths Clem was willing to go in order to protect her, Sarah would have more of a will to live. And maybe if she’d had more of a will to live, she would have fought harder to crawl out from under the deck, and she WOULD have lived.
But none of that happened, because Clem slapped her instead of protecting her. Reminds me A LOT of when Carlos slapped Sarah. In fact, I’m seeing extreme parallels between the two events. Let me tell you my take on Carlos slapping Sarah.
I think Carlos was wrong to do it. When I played that part, I was thinking, “Okay, this is it, Carlos. Whatever you do, you cannot hit Sarah. We have to revolt now. Just jump Carver right now.” And I think the group would have had a good chance of winning that fight if they’d attacked just then. Carver only had one armed guard with him, Troy, and I’m sure neither of them expected an attack at that point.
But whether the group would have won and taken Carver hostage until they escaped the camp, or whether they would have all been shot dead, it would have been better than Carlos hitting Sarah. By hitting her, he not only hurt her in all the ways you hurt anyone by hitting them, but he also destroyed her trust in him. I mean…somewhere in the back of her mind, Sarah must have been wondering exactly how far her dad would go in punishing her just to ensure someone “worse” didn’t do it.
When Carlos hit Sarah is when Sarah started losing it. So, maybe the group lived that day because Carlos slapped Sarah, but if he destroyed Sarah’s trust and sanity, was Carlos really protecting Sarah? Is it better to be alive or to have someone you trust? I strongly believe it’s the latter.
See how similar the two slap situations are? Carlos could have fought back against seemingly impossible odds and protected Sarah. But he chose the quicker, “safer” route and slapped Sarah. Likewise, Clem could have fought back against seemingly impossible odds and fought off the zombie herd from Sarah. But she chose the quicker, “safer” route and slapped Sarah.
Both times, Sarah had someone slapping her instead of protecting her.
And after both Carlos and Clem “saved” Sarah by slapping her, Sarah died a sad, helpless death, feeling no hope or will to survive. So the moral of the story is “don’t slap someone to save them.” It’ll only make it worse in the end.
Seriously. That’s the moral. And I love that moral.
See, Clem is going down this darker path, taking a more brutal, Carver-ish approach to solving problems now. And that’s (hopefully) going to be a major part of her character arc. But the writers are still showing us, the players, that that path doesn’t work. It didn’t save Sarah at all in the end.
Many people are upset there was no “reward” for saving Sarah, but I am now thanking God there was no reward for it. If there was a reward for slapping Sarah, that would send a horrible message: that being cruel to someone toughens them up, like it’s some kind of service to them. It’s a common message so it would probably go unnoticed, but I hate it.
And that’s why I love the message this episode sent. Being cruel to Sarah didn’t toughen her up. It just prolonged her suffering and delayed her death. However, Clem is in such close proximity to the events that she probably doesn’t see that yet, and she’ll continue down this darker path for some time before turning around.
Why is that wonderful? Because I love stories in which the protagonist starts good, goes bad, then turns good again. Those stories take us through both the heartbreak that made the character evil and the choices the character made to get back to being good. Those stories are exciting and dramatic but also inspiring and realistic. Everyone has highs and lows, both in life and in their character.
Bottom line is I’m super excited about this discovery.
TL;DR: You can tell Clem is turning darker because her choices are skewing darker. Both choices regarding Sarah (Leave Sarah or Slap Sarah) were really dark. But I’m excited about this development (with the provision that Clem will turn good again in the end) because it means Clem’s overarching story is going to be, well, one hell of a story.
Comments
I disagree with the writers forcing us to see Clem becoming 'darker' no matter what we do, because I feel that the core of her character - a moral, optimistic, compassionate girl - should never be compromised. According to you, Season 2 might be the "Empire Strikes Back" of the series, with her becoming a more outright heroic and empowered character in Season 3. Who knows.
But I do know that it irritated me to see Clem pulling the same psychotic expression that Carver had when he nearly killed Kenny. The writers try to force a parallel between the two, and I think it's a silly attempt - Jane's a much more appropriate indicator of the kind of 'dark' person Clem can become.
Also regarding the slap - if you do everything you can to be as friendly to Sarah as possible (although the writers force Clem to act distanced and slightly annoyed by having to babysit an older girl), she forgives you and the first thing she says in the middle of her panic upon seeing the zombie horde is "Clementine."
The thing is my Clem wouldn't have slapped her. If it was to suggest that she is changing, it seems out of the blue as that was the first time that her becoming darker was brought up, and it isn't brought up again.
I think that's just her "cut the shit" face. IIRC, she also uses it when she tells Kenny that Sarita is already dead and that we have to move on. Lee pulls plenty of angry-looking expressions when trying to get people to get their shit together and do stuff. If anything, Clem might just be channeling that.
Maybe it is. I didn't go the 'angry' route with trying to convince Kenny because escalating his temper seemed to be a bad idea.
I'm sure slapping Sarah contributes to her miserable state following her rescue. She was likely reminded of the pain caused by her dad, and felt responsible for making her 'friend' act so uncharacteristically.
I'm sorry but I would call bullshit on that scene so hard. Clem charging headfirst into a hoard of zombies out of hope that somehow seeing her do this would cause Sarah to snap out of her stupor and get up would require an absolutely insane amount of disregard for her own well-being. She didn't have death sentence like Lee, she didn't have a deathwish like Kenny. She's just a girl trying to survive and save the people around her if she can.
Not to mention that she and Jane were already fighting off the zombie hoard and Clem could tell Sarah about how she, Luke, Jane, and all the others wanted to find Sarah and bring her back safely. Luke spent hours trying to get her to get up instead of leaving while he was being slowly surrounded by walkers. He thought he was going to die and he still wouldn't leave her. If Sarah hadn't caught on by then that people other than her dad were trying to look out for her, she wasn't going to.
Maybe. But she didn't even so much as mention it afterwards, whereas she seemed fixated on Carlos slapping her long after it happened. While I don't think she was happy to be slapped, I think she interpreted it appropriately as a last ditch effort from her friend to save her.
I think the OP's point is that Clem still has some growing to do, both on the physical and moral level. I can see her proactively fighting off the zombies to protect Sarah if she was the same size and age as Jane (or, heh, even if she was as old as Sarah.)
I can see her at some point fighting off the zombies to buy more time for someone else to get Sarah to safety (as Jane did for her and Luke). But what the OP seems to be talking about is Clem deciding that she alone would be able to take out the entire hoard of zombies while Sarah just sits there in the corner. That's...Kenny-levels of recklessness.
Yeah, I never saw Clem quite as untouchable as everyone else did. Perhaps Season 1 Clem was a moral, optimistic, compassionate girl who could never ever die. I definitely saw her that way for a good long while, but I realized that could change. And IMO, it has. Clem is different now. She does bad things, and I can definitely imagine her dying. But, that's mostly a matter of opinion.
Ooooooh, wait, though! You just gave me a thought. She has the Carver expression when she slaps Sarah, but it's obviously the Jane thing to do to leave Sarah. Maybe those are the two different kinds of dark Clem can become. That would make things more interesting if we're forced to play Clem dark. At least, there would be different kinds of dark. (Also, it makes sense that keeping Sarah alive but in pain is more of a Carver thing to do. He obviously wanted the whole group alive and bowing at his feet. Whereas, leaving Sarah is more of a Jane thing to do, because she'd rather be alone.)
Well, yes, Sarah forgives you and looks to you for help even after you slap her. Sarah's a forgiving girl. She's said herself that she's never been so angry that she would hurt someone. She doesn't even seem to hate Carver. But I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that.
Well, I think the slap/leave is just a hint at what's to come. It's supposed to be the first time we're seeing her this dark, but one of the only times we see her this dark FOR NOW. She won't be fully on the dark side for quite some time. I think there will definitely be more than three seasons, so they're taking they're time in turning Clem bad so it's more gradual and realistic.
Darth Clementine. Her choices do seem to be either risking someone's life or risking her own.
I wasn't thinking that Clem would fight the zombies in the hope that it would snap Sarah out of it. I was thinking that Clem would do it because it was the right thing to do to protect Sarah, even if she died doing it. I was just pointing out that the consequence couldn't involve Clem dying there (although it could have involved her getting bit) because the season's not even done yet. And therefore, if we were given the option to protect Sarah, the outcome would HAVE to be that Sarah would see Clem's real, EARNEST intent to do whatever it took to protect Sarah, and Sarah would snap out of it and they'd both get out.
And I wouldn't call it an insane amount of disregard for Clementine's own well-being. I'd call it an insane amount of goodness and self-sacrifice on Clem's part. And that's why I'm okay with her not doing that yet. The series would be boring if she were a saint all the way through it. But I do think a character dying on a super-saintly note is a great way to end their story. (Not that I'm saying Clem's story should end yet. Here's my other post on how Clem should remain with us for many years: http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/79329/why-clem-should-remain-playable-character-in-future-seasons)
I really don't think Jane and Luke's actions for Sarah WOULD be enough to give her a will to live. First off because she didn't WITNESS most of it (Jane and Clem's zombie-fighting), and secondly, because they really didn't follow through. When it came down to it, they both left her. It's surprising how well many people can tell how earnest you are. And maybe Sarah could tell that Luke and Jane weren't that earnest. ....I mean, really, it's all just conjecture. But that's what I think.
Well, Luke at least acknowledges his limits. His characterization in Episode 4 seems to follow the line of thought of what happens when his reason for living - his family - is broken apart and how his stress has boiled over into irrationality. He's still a starving, beaten up mess; he thought he was about to die in that trailer and likely only began shouting at Sarah after hours of trying to convince her in quieter ways. The problem was that he couldn't calm down Sarah because he himself was unable to remain calm and composed.
It is Kenny-level, isn't it? Lol, I guess that's why I like Kenny. I can't say that I'd ever frown on someone recklessly putting their own life in danger for someone else.
But that's not really what I was saying. I do think Clem could have bought Sarah some time, and in that time -- for the sake of the story -- Sarah would have to snap out of it. But if she didn't, and the zombies kept coming, Clem probably would have died. It would have been a miracle if she'd taken out the entire hoard.....I do believe in miracles, but that's not really the point. The point is that it would have been the moral thing to do for Clementine to protect Sarah WITHOUT slapping her. That could have come in many ways. Maybe the other option could have been [Hug Sarah] and that could have snapped her out of it. The moral choice could have been any number of things, but we weren't given a moral choice because Clementine is going darker.
lol
Your post made me think of this
The thing is, it wouldn't just be a "moral" choice that you're proposing. It would be a messianic, self-sacrifice choice that I wouldn't expect from anyone. The choice to stay back and try to help Sarah was already pretty self-sacrificing to me because it put Clem inches away from death for Sarah's sake. I don't think slapping Sarah takes away from that, even if Sarah hadn't responded to the slap and gotten eaten anyway. Thinking back to S1, this would be the equivalent of Lee cutting Mr. Parker's leg off to try and save him but having him die anyway. I still think trying to save him was the more moral thing to do.
For most of what you said, agree to disagree I guess.
For the Lee/Mr. Parker parallel, you're right that was another choice where neither option was good. And I guess that could mean that, like I initially thought, Telltale was just trying to give us another hard choice with the slap/leave thing. And that would mean they're not hinting at Clem's darker side. In which case, darn.
But I do think the two situations are vastly different. For one thing, you can try to save Mr. Parker by chopping at the chain until the game forces you to leave. In that case, you still tried, so it's not like Telltale was forcing you to make a dark choice either way. And with Mr. Parker, it was the bear trap holding him back, and Lee cuts that off. Whereas with Sarah, it's her unbearably heavy depression that's holding her back, and IMO, slapping Sarah could only make her depression worse in the long run. I don't even know why it got her on her feet. If you really wanted to free her from what was holding her back, a kind choice would be the way to go. The slap was not a kind choice, especially considering how closely it mirrored the Carlos slap.
LOL at Clem's face
All of the TWDG makes me think of this! This motto fits this game even better than it fits the movie it originated in. =D
How is it good Clementine is turning darker? She' s 11 guys, 11 year olds shouldn't be dark.
Well, I haven't tried it myself, but can't you also let the time run out in the trailer and be automatically forced to leave Sarah? Or is that a game over? If it's not, then that would just be you trying to verbally convince Sarah nicely until you're left with no other choice but to leave her.
And while slapping Sarah might make her depression worse in the long run, doing nothing would have been allowing her to die right then and there. I think it got her to her feet because the sting of pain distracted her from thinking about there terrible things that happened to her dad and brought her back to the present moment in a way that words couldn't.
Well, I'm not looking at her as an 11-year-old. I'm looking at her as Alive, as Chuck said.
Yeah, I haven't tried it either. But I mostly meant that it's more ambiguous with Mr. Parker. There are several options you could take. Chop the chain, chop the leg, leave him, let the game decide. With Sarah, there are two distinct options that are both bad. It just seems a little more direct than the Mr. Parker thing. I dunno.
Well, that's another thing I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on. I don't think it's worse to leave Sarah than it is to keep Sarah alive while making her depression worse.
I think you might be forgetting the tiny detail that she's in the apocalypse
Rather than Clem becoming 'darker', I think it's more appropriate to say she has become more pragmatic and more of a survivalist than before. She still is compassionate, fiercely protective of her group members, and still has a strong sense of her own morality... But she's beginning to realise that that maintaining that sense may come to hinder her chances of survival.
I think im not actually, theres a difference between being tough and brave then being dark.
Lee was tough and brave.
Christa was brave
Omid was brave
Luke is brave and tough
Dark?
Carver is dark
The St.Johns are dark
The Stranger is dark
MY Clem is not dark.
Also, I don't understand how slapping Sarah correlates with Clem becoming darker... She didn't have a malicious intent and was merely trying to snap her out of the daze she was in. I felt it was a perfectly reasonable response given the time and situation.
Yeah, I don't think "dark" is the right term.
Well, if you didn't leave Sarah,steal supplies, or tell Luke that she enjoyed seeing Carver die [you have the option to say that in EP4], I can agree with that.
My Clem isn't dark either. But you can't deny the possibility is there.
Exactly, Clem was desperate and she had to try something, and it worked.
Sarah understood that she had to do it, she smiles at Clem just as they get up on the roof.
The dark choice was to leave Sarah, not slap her if it meant saving her.
If the ZA is all that Clem has ever known, then how can people expect her to stay on the straight and narrow forever? Literally every person she has ever liked has been killed or maimed right in front of her. Some darkness may be due.
Jussayin
I consider it dark to put your own survival above others.
Well, if you just read the TL;DR, then read the rest of the post. I elaborate greatly on why it was such a dark choice. And if you still don't see what I'm saying, it's just a difference of opinions I guess.
You have to lose your humanity and innocence at some point throughout the apocalypse, it eventually happens to everybody and that's when you become a stronger survivor. I like Dark Clem better because it just means her chances of survival are much higher.
In that case shouldn't everyone in S2 be considered dark, save for people like Walter? Kenny/Jane have no qualms in doing what is needed for the survival of themselves/ their group- even if it involves killing people, the cabin group risked the lives of everyone in Carver's camp to save themselves, Clem can begin adopting this mentality depending on the players' choices, etc.
Yes, I would consider them all dark. And even though I like some of them (well, mostly, just Kenny at this point), Clementine's darkness is more interesting because she was once like Walter, Matthew, Chuck, etc. And now, I think she's starting to go dark, but with the definite possibility of going back to being good. I just find the good-to-bad-to-good thing to be an exciting character arc..
The "angry route" for Clem seems really unlike her..Not to say she can't ever become angry at a person or situation just she wouldn't deliberately try to make a bad situation worse by getting Kenny riled up more. I never choose out of character choices during my first blind playthroughs with Clementine. My Clem is always the true to nature genuine Clementine, where she actually should have compassion to individuals such as Sarah and Ben as many has had compassion for her (otherwise she'd just be Becca's clone). The little girl Lee would be proud of as well as her own parents. Clem isn't Carver or Jane or Christa but it is understandable that the older Clementine would be far more hardened and tougher than before after having gone through so much in the apocalypse that her own negative transformation to adapt to the terrible environment she is in.. was always to kind of to be expected. But not to the extent she becomes psychotic as Carver or Selfish as Jane. Clementine should hang on to the lessons of her first survivor teacher Mr.Everett. Christa deserves props as well for those 16 months in spite of grieving over Omid. And Christa could have at least made Clem learn how to create a fire. Which would probably come in great handy being in the dead of winter en route to Wellington.
Sarah smiles at Clem when you give Sarah her glasses. That can come before or after they get up on the roof. I don't think it means that Sarah appreciated Clem slapping her. I think it just means that Sarah appreciated the kind gesture of Clem giving her her glasses. It speaks to the fact that Sarah was very forgiving that she could still appreciate kind gestures from Clem even if they came after a not-so-kind gesture.
I slapped that bitch too, don't worry mang.