I think that he just wanted to lighten the mood. The haters came and made a drama out of it. He just wanted to share something he found funny IMO, but I guess you aren't allowed to have fun around here anymore.
Some people really are too serious, "Bitchslap" is a common term for "anyone" getting kind of slapped out of no where. Joffrey in game of thrones is the best example.
Only people who take stuff too seriously could get offended by this
You've argued against the term being offensive by pointing out that the word "bitch" originates to female dogs. But that's why the term is offensive, because it basically boils down to women = dogs.
Heh, that's fair enough then. I was under the impression you wanted to cause drama because if you listen to the file you can tell it's Clem being slapped around the face.
Are you fucking serious? Who ever said anything about Christianity??? Lmao I also like how one of the mods seemed to remove my reply to aldimon which clearly shows that I was only half serious in my "mission" comment. Seriously. Now who has to lighten up?
FACT To rise to the level of a disability for which Social Security will pay monthly benefits, the Social Security Administration (SSA) requires that you have:
*attacks of apprehension, fear, and terror with a sense of doom, that
*occur frequently (on average of at least once per week), and
*are sudden and unpredictable.
In addition, the panic attacks must cause you serious problems with one of the following
*social functioning
*being able to leave your house
*focusing on tasks, or
*necessary activities like cooking, eating, dressing, bathing, and homemaking.
Do you now see how Sarah's condition is defined as being disabled? If she was claiming social security for disability she would qualify,many people live normal lives having similar issues not classing themselves as disabled,but you wanted proof,here's your proof.
I still disagree with all your above points. This episode was weak writing. The fact that you can pick out themes and interpret them as you want is more indicative of effort on your part than Telltale's. It's clear that the writing was railroaded and lazy. And since our only other point of contention is that you think Sarah was portrayed respectfully and I don't, here I'm going to explain how (http://treedeecee.tumblr.com/post/95063446864/i-think-its-just-an-issue-with-the-game-the)
Her first death is treated as inevitable from the start, an unavoidable end for people like her. In Jane’s constant monologues comparing her to her dead sister, a parallel is drawn between Jaime and Sarah, pointing out that they were both the same. From what we can tell, Jaime seemed to have clinical depression, as Jane described her being unable to get out of bed, dwelling on death, and unable to motivate herself to move forward. Sarah on the other hand suffers from regular panic attacks, an anxiety disorder, and shows traits that many have interpreted as clear signs of being on the autism spectrum.
Jane claims that Sarah and Jaime were the same. Since Sarah clearly has not given up on living, it can only be interpreted that they are the same in the sense that they have inherent weaknesses, as Jane sees them, which are fundamentally part of who they are. Jane claims that “they had no regard for their own safety, or for ours”, as if it was their conscious decision to endanger others. And for this, they should be left behind.
This is an extremely common and harmful view, not just in the apocalyptic genre but in the real world, proclaiming people like Sarah who were born “not normal”, to be selfish. That it’s their fault for being the way they are, and for that they can be neglected, abused, or abandoned. They don’t deserve to live, simply because of being who they are.
There is no other side shown to this argument, you can never disagree with Jane or prove her wrong. The narrative is forcing this extremely harmful and biased view on its audience. It’s offensive because the idea that somebody should die simply because of who they are is a very harmful and common idea. It’s bad writing because it’s extremely unsatisfying, an overused cliche, and inconsistent with Sarah’s prior portrayal.
Suddenly it was like Telltale’s Sarah, who had previously been a very important and multidimensional character, ceased to exist, and was turned into Scapegoat Sarah, for the benefit of the “Sarah Is Useless” crowd. All of her strengths are downplayed, and her weaknesses are amplified. Telltale fails to portray Sarah’s death as the tragic loss of an innocent life. Instead, it’s the “right” call to leave her behind.
As for the second time she determinantly dies, it’s just biased and poor writing, plain and simple. Sarah is standing on top of the deck, falls, and then suddenly the laws of physics change and she’s trapped underneath the deck. Then you have another choice: save the smart, hardened survivalist, or risk her in order to try saving the “useless liability”? For some reason nobody else seems to notice the screaming girl crying for help below, and Jane is the only one who can make a move. If you do choose to convince Jane to save her, which takes multiple dialogue options, before she can save Sarah she is suddenly smacked in the face with random plot plank. To top it all off, no one - not even Clem- expresses genuine mourning for Sarah’s loss. The only responses even related to her are all to do with JANE, and not the innocent girl who just died. You can say “I know you tried,” “It was hopeless,” or “You didn’t try hard enough.”
There is no “Sarah was a good person”, no option for closure or acknowledgement of her death. Instead, it’s all about Jane, the pragmatic sensible badass, who did nothing but belittle and dehumanize Sarah from the start.
"This is untrue. Episode 4 did nothing to portray Sarah as anything but. Jane constantly compares her to Jaime, who she views as being unabl… moree and "not meant" to live. The story forces us to agree with this."
Hm... I disagree. The fact she's huddled into a corner in the fetal position alone portrays her as simply being scared and broken following Carlos' death, not a coward. Not at one point in Episode 4 do they make Sarah do something overly stupid and out of character in order to make her look like a useless Ben 2.0 type. She remains the very same Sarah we saw in previous episodes, but it's only now that she's been fully exposed to the apocalypse and she reacts as any sheltered person would in that situation. Jane's description of Jaime wasn't as hateful as you're making it sound, either... She just didn't want to force her sister through hell any longer.
"This was only true until episode 4. Her good qualities are now downplaye… [view original content]
The disabled are less privileged than the abled. Ableism is discrimination against the disabled. It is not as well known as racism but it is just as important an issue.
Um I just described in my reply that the way you were applying the rule doesn't count. I wasn't denying that you see a tv screen with your eyes and that's a way of showing, not telling... I said that if anything Telltale was telling, not showing in this episode. The way you were applying "show don't tell" was because you seem to think that facial animations are enough of a satisfying end for Sarah's character arc because it means that somebody felt bad that she died.
2.) This really does not apply here. Show don't tell is a rule in books, not visual media. It's a rule that indicates a writer must not dire… morectly tell us how to feel about something; we must see it for ourselves by actions in the writing and with hints and descriptions that don't hold our hand and steer us in one direction or another without subtlety. If you do want to apply this to the game, then Telltale did the opposite of this, they hit us over the head with all these put-downs on Sarah's character and the writing never indicates that there is anything more to it than that.
It's a prominent rule in cinema and cinematic experiences too. Think about the term "Show, not tell" it's a visual experience it's the perfect way to express this rule. How do you think silent films went along for decades? It provided the audience with an experience to imagine what's happening, aka. audience interpretation. Not all characters in movies and games need to proclaim their grief, their actions and facial expressions tell it all.
wait a second. How is my being predictable here a bad thing exactly? I thought it meant that I have my points and I'm standing by them. Not changing them around whenever I need to in order to win the argument? are you just trying to offend me now?
1.) it's in combination that the slap along with all my other points that matters. That's why I keep talking about this. Read my original post in my thread http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/77474/. It clearly mentions Clem's slap as being part of this disrespectful depiction of Sarah, & now Telltale's employees have only confirmed what I was afraid of, that if anything it was basically included for the benefit of the anti-Sarah club.
2.) No arguments there
3.5) No. Carver didn't need a catalyst. He needed an excuse. It was his plan from the start.
3.8) Losing your zest for life, uninterested in events, suicidal thoughts, giving up on the world, catatonic behavior= symptoms of depression. Whether brought on by everyday life or the apocalypse, depression is depression.
4.) Authors can't pick favorites. That leads to weak writing. They can have favorites, but it must not be made apparent in the writing. They must treat each of their characters fairly. (And btw I never said that Sarah's behavior itself was disrespectful in this episode. Her character itself acted fairly consistently and logically. But the narrative itself did all it could to paint her in an extremely one-sided light)
Sure there are positives in Telltale's writing. But I'm not here to discuss that.
And why is it that my criticism becomes "hate" when it gets personal for me? And therefore you don't have to listen?
Refusing to take responsibility for when you offend people is a shitty thing to do. The majority of people don't have a problem with the depiction of the disabled in media because they're not disabled. It never affects them. So it doesn't matter to them. Whether or not they were offended doesn't matter because it does not apply to them. But the people who were offended have every right to be.
This really is my last post on this because it's pointless arguing with you, TT247. It's not like I don't have a clue what I'm talking about… more either when it comes to writing and storytelling. You're also quite predictable, partly when it comes to point 2.
1) That is bullcrap. Not everything is a representation of how Telltale feels or the message they want to send. In that scene where she is slapped, it is simply a matter of being true to what would happen in that situation and being true to the character. it doesn't have to be a big statement, so you're reading too much into it (though yes, it was intended to show she was helpess at that moment in time. It's a perfectly normal reaction to break down when you lose someone close, but on the flip side, it's also possible to deal with loss in different ways, especially if you've become hardened due to circumstances thrust upon you). Basically not every word has to be a message. Sometimes, it's… [view original content]
Just because she was killed off doesn't mean she was treated unfairly.
She was killed off with no reaction or significance to the plot except for a point that was offensive, that people like her are simply not "meant" to survive.
If she had any disability then it was obviously extremely minor and pretty much redundant.
A disability is a disability.
The narrative is clear that Sarah died because she was disabled.
Jane claims that Sarah and Jaime were the same. Since Sarah clearly has not given up on living, it can only be interpreted that they are the same in the sense that they have inherent weaknesses, as Jane sees them, which are actually disabilities, which are fundamentally part of who they are. Jane claims that “they had no regard for their own safety, or for ours”, as if it was their conscious decision to endanger others. And for this, they should be left behind.
This is an extremely common and harmful view, not just in the apocalyptic genre but in the real world, proclaiming people like Sarah who were born “not normal”, to be selfish. That it’s their fault for being the way they are, and for that they can be neglected, abused, or abandoned. They don’t deserve to live, simply because of being who they are.
There is no other side shown to this argument, you can barely disagree with Jane and you can never prove her wrong. The narrative is forcing this extremely harmful and biased view on its audience.
edit and I disagree. The only way you can save her in the trailer is forceful. You have to slap her
If she had any disability then it was obviously extremely minor and pretty much redundant. It's wrong of you to argue that Sarah's portrayal… more was offensive because it wasn't. She was a scared girl who died a scared girl. Just because she was killed off doesn't mean she was treated unfairly... People die, sometimes our favorite characters, and we have to deal with that. Her story was engrossing and realistic from its beginning to the end... She was always depicted as a human - Someone more human and 'normal' than everyone else that even reminded me of myself.
She shut down completely upon seeing her father die and Telltale then let us deal with that in whatever way we wished... We have multiple dialogue options in terms of persuading her to leave that trailer. You could have been forceful with her or understanding, or anywhere in between.
"Why then are you so adamant that this isn't a big deal? I honestly don't understand."
As … [view original content]
I haven't seen a disabled person complain about Sarah's representation as of yet. Even if someone has... They're overreacting.
There's a … moremassive silent majority out there who have loved Season 2 and the way Sarah was depicted. Barely anyone is offended,
Expressions of grief and disgust are animations. Not writing. The writers wrote down the animators instructions for facial animation. Then they left out the part where they do their jobs in the writing.
I replayed the part they all had the facial expression of disgust and grief. Bonnie was crying afterwards about Sarah. Jane was sorry to you… more. Also this isn't a book where facial expressions are useless, it's a cinematic games facial expressions are ways to show grief rather than each character proclaiming "Oh, I am grieving over Sarah's death." Actions speak louder than words.
So it only becomes a fact when the right number of people are offended?
Never said Telltale hates disabled people. I said their depiction of Sarah was offensive and plays right into the media's false beliefs about people with disabilities.
Since a lot of people don't feel offended by it, it's not a fact.
And when you're talking about Sarah's treatment, I can discuss with you.… more Because I think you've got some valid points there. But when this whole thing goes the "Telltale hates disabled people" way, I think everyone here should calm down a bit. Because that simply is a little bit fucked up.
Heh, that's fair enough then. I was under the impression you wanted to cause drama because if you listen to the file you can tell it's Clem being slapped around the face.
Are you fucking serious? Who ever said anything about Christianity??? Lmao I also like how one of the mods seemed to remove my reply to aldi… moremon which clearly shows that I was only half serious in my "mission" comment. Seriously. Now who has to lighten up?
I don't really see how I can make it much clearer but I'll go that extra mile just for you
Jonah has a LOT more fans and people who know his name to offend, and he called a living breathing person a "faggot.", which I'm sure you know is a derogatory term for homosexuals. If Jonah didn't apologise, it would ruin his credibility as an actor and celebrity and damage his status immensely.
Greg stated his opinion on a video game character, which is from a video game designed to make people make horrible decisions and split opinions. Greg didn't say his opinion of the character to outright offend anybody, he only stated his opinion of Sarah, to which the developers nodded and agreed, it's his opinion and in his game he's allowed to make his own decisions. People have deliberately nit-picked at his words and have become offended when that was not the original intent.
Both Jonah and Greg have upset people, and Jonah is on a higher social standing than Greg so he needed to apologise to keep his career intact, whilst Greg could have dismissed it but didn't. Does it make it any less of an issue because more people know about Jonah than Greg? No, it doesn't. But the only hatred Greg will get is from some nasty internet trolls in forums, whilst Jonah would be shunned from celebrity society and would be pissed on in the public eye.
If I was a mass murderer, taking people into the cellar and cutting them up and bathing in their blood but nobody knew I did that, would it make it any less of an issue? No. But no one would know about the issue, so who is there to be concerned and offended?
How is this discussion not about who's right and who isn't? You're trying to prove me wrong. I'm trying to prove you wrong.
And I underst… moreand what you're saying about Jonah Hill. But I don't see how that makes me wrong. Maybe you need to explain it more clearly?
You should note that I said, in the last paragraph, that only the bracketed words of the first sentence were aimed at you.
And no, I'm not trying to offend you. If I was, I would make it clear, likely with a 'are you stupid?' kind of question or I wouldn't hold back what I thought of someone as I tend to be rather blunt. However, I am getting fed up of everything and that is coming across in my posts. I didn't say you being predictable was a bad thing either. It's just that I anticipated you'd shoot down much of what I said and I knew you'd pull the 'games are different' card. I am surprised that you agreed on point 2 in your second post though.
Anyway, I don't want to debate this anymore.
PS: Glad to see the downvote option has been removed.
wait a second. How is my being predictable here a bad thing exactly? I thought it meant that I have my points and I'm standing by them. Not … morechanging them around whenever I need to in order to win the argument? are you just trying to offend me now?
1.) it's in combination that the slap along with all my other points that matters. That's why I keep talking about this. Read my original post in my thread http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/77474/. It clearly mentions Clem's slap as being part of this disrespectful depiction of Sarah, & now Telltale's employees have only confirmed what I was afraid of, that if anything it was basically included for the benefit of the anti-Sarah club.
2.) No arguments there
3.5) No. Carver didn't need a catalyst. He needed an excuse. It was his plan from the start.
3.8) Losing your zest for life, uninterested in events, suicidal thoughts, giving up on the world, catatonic behavior= sy… [view original content]
why is it that sarah gets BITCH SLAPPED by people.....like from carlos... from clem...
I know carlos had no choice...regardless...she got bitchslapped.
That's great for you that you were mature and responsible enough at 17 to live on your own independently. But where I'm from, under 18 = child. And like I said before, please read my other comments and opinions on the matter before you make the judgement that I'm overreacting.
Oh my gosh. First of all, she's a teenager (15 years old), not a child. She's a teenager in the ZA, which is pretty much an adult. When I wa… mores 15, I certainly didn't think of myself as being a child. When I was 17 (two years later), I was living alone, 3,500 miles away from home. So, 15 was not being a "child" to me and I'm sure many others agree. Sarah needed that slap. I liked Sarah and I chose the option immediately because I needed to snap her out of the daze she was in. Also, the person who slapped her was an 11 year old girl, not an adult. Clementine, her much younger friend, slapped her. I would have slapped one of my friends if they were going to give up and die. No offense, but I think you're just looking for things to be offended about. This is just so insignificant. I can't understand why you're so bothered by it. It seems like you want to have a gripe with Telltale because you were dissatisfied with Sarah's death. I was unhappy with her ending too, but it wasn't deserving of all this outrage that you're giving it.
Greg stated his opinion on a video game character, which is from a video game designed to make people make horrible decisions and split opinions. Greg didn't say his opinion of the character to outright offend anybody, he only stated his opinion of Sarah, to which the developers nodded and agreed
There was nothing to give a split opinion on Sarah this episode. There was nothing but negativity shown by Telltale this episode toward her. In prior episodes and in this episode, Sarah showed clear signs and symptoms of disabilities. But she wasn't a bad person. She never purposely did anything wrong.
And yet, even before this episode, Greg hated her. Along with lots of people. They hated her, and were happy that she died.
They hated and wanted to kill a character who never did anything wrong.
Ask any Sarah hater why they wanted Sarah to die or why they disliked her. They will tell you that it was because she was "stupid, annoying, useless, retarded, a liability".
All words regularly used to describe disabled people.
I think you can fill in the rest of the blanks.
If I was a mass murderer, taking people into the cellar and cutting them up and bathing in their blood but nobody knew I did that, would it make it any less of an issue? No. But no one would know about the issue, so who is there to be concerned and offended?
What are you even talking about? So because I don’t know you’re a murderer, I’m not appalled, so that makes it ok that I’m not appalled?
How does that even apply to this situation? It doesn't even make any sense.
I don't really see how I can make it much clearer but I'll go that extra mile just for you
Jonah has a LOT more fans and people who know… more his name to offend, and he called a living breathing person a "faggot.", which I'm sure you know is a derogatory term for homosexuals. If Jonah didn't apologise, it would ruin his credibility as an actor and celebrity and damage his status immensely.
Greg stated his opinion on a video game character, which is from a video game designed to make people make horrible decisions and split opinions. Greg didn't say his opinion of the character to outright offend anybody, he only stated his opinion of Sarah, to which the developers nodded and agreed, it's his opinion and in his game he's allowed to make his own decisions. People have deliberately nit-picked at his words and have become offended when that was not the original intent.
Both Jonah and Greg have upset people, and Jonah is on a higher social st… [view original content]
Yeah, I think most of us have exhausted all our energy in terms of arguing. I'll simply say I disagree with your points, TT247, and maybe I'll counter them later. We may as well just cease the argument seeing as we're both starting to repeat ourselves.
Yeah, I think most of us have exhausted all our energy in terms of arguing. I'll simply say I disagree with your points, TT247, and maybe I'… morell counter them later. We may as well just cease the argument seeing as we're both starting to repeat ourselves.
But seriously, yeah. I'm tired of all the drama... I originally joined the forums to have friendly discussions but most of my posts involve heated arguing.
So, TT247... What's your favourite character? Favourite TWD episode out of all of them?
I've got a crazy idea, too. How about we all have a calm argument that doesn't devolve into personal insults whenever one side or the other is winning?
I've got a crazy idea, too. How about we all have a calm argument that doesn't devolve into personal insults whenever one side or the other is winning?
We've discussed enough IMO. Why don't we get along? Who knows, we might actually start liking each other around here. Crazy thought, I know.
So tell me, what's your favorite TWD character ?
I've got a crazy idea, too. How about we all have a calm argument that doesn't devolve into personal insults whenever one side or the other is winning?
I have complained about Sarah's representation being disabled myself and no its not overreacting. I've stated many times before that I did not want to watch a fiction where my problems were displayed and laughed at just like they are in real life. The "majority" are not silent they have been harassing every opinion that is given and then blowing those opinions out of proportion..
I haven't seen a disabled person complain about Sarah's representation as of yet. Even if someone has... They're overreacting.
There's a … moremassive silent majority out there who have loved Season 2 and the way Sarah was depicted. Barely anyone is offended,
Hell, the two devs in the interview said the office was split on how they viewed Sarah! "Nothing but negativity." That's simply not true and I don't see what you get out of it for making that "fact" up. Lots of people hated Duck and wanted him to die, yet he never did anything wrong. Where are the hate threads for him? Okay, so the words "stupid, annoying, useless, retarded and liability" describe disabled people? Well, Retard is accurate. There are such people who are retards... that's just how it is, that's not abuse. Even though she's quite clearly not disabled, she WAS a liability. In the trailer park it looked like Jane or Sarah would die, and I don't blame people for choosing the functioning badass than the girl who had gone in to shutdown.
Oh my god, do you take everything literally? I don't know how I can make it any more simple. I'm sorry, but at this point it's looking like you have more of a disability than Sarah.
Does not knowing about a murder make it any less wrong? NO. But if you don't know about something, how can you possibly care about it?
Less people know about what Greg has done to upset people, so the people who don't know can't possibly care, can they?
More people know about what Jonah has done to upset people, and people talk about celebrities. I'm not going to text my friend saying "Oh, did you see what Greg Miller said?"
How about I dumb it down even further?
There's more gays that will be offended by what Jonah says, than there are dumb-as-shit Sarah fans who will twist Greg's words and get offended.
Greg stated his opinion on a video game character, which is from a video game designed to make people make horrible decisions and split opin… moreions. Greg didn't say his opinion of the character to outright offend anybody, he only stated his opinion of Sarah, to which the developers nodded and agreed
There was nothing to give a split opinion on Sarah this episode. There was nothing but negativity shown by Telltale this episode toward her. In prior episodes and in this episode, Sarah showed clear signs and symptoms of disabilities. But she wasn't a bad person. She never purposely did anything wrong.
And yet, even before this episode, Greg hated her. Along with lots of people. They hated her, and were happy that she died.
They hated and wanted to kill a character who never did anything wrong.
Ask any Sarah hater why they wanted Sarah to die or why they disliked her. They will tell you that it was because she was "stupid, annoying, … [view original content]
We've discussed enough IMO. Why don't we get along? Who knows, we might actually start liking each other around here. Crazy thought, I know.
So tell me, what's your favorite TWD character ?
Comments
and this is why we don't want any politics in our games........ if you are so easily offended why dont you go live under a rock?
Glad I'm not the only one to say this.
I would tell you but its not allowed to discuss sorry
That, and I couldn't listen to the file for some reason so I was assuming. Mostly just trying to have fun, hence the xD at the end of my post.
Some people really are too serious, "Bitchslap" is a common term for "anyone" getting kind of slapped out of no where. Joffrey in game of thrones is the best example.
Only people who take stuff too seriously could get offended by this
why is it that sarah gets BITCH SLAPPED by people.....like from carlos... from clem...
I know carlos had no choice...regardless...she got bitchslapped.
Sorry but you're stretching on this one :P
Heh, that's fair enough then. I was under the impression you wanted to cause drama because if you listen to the file you can tell it's Clem being slapped around the face.
Are you fucking serious? Who ever said anything about Christianity??? Lmao I also like how one of the mods seemed to remove my reply to aldimon which clearly shows that I was only half serious in my "mission" comment. Seriously. Now who has to lighten up?
There should have been [Bitchslap Sarah just for fun], [Bitchslap Sarah and convince her to come] and [Don't bitchslap].
FACT To rise to the level of a disability for which Social Security will pay monthly benefits, the Social Security Administration (SSA) requires that you have:
*attacks of apprehension, fear, and terror with a sense of doom, that
*occur frequently (on average of at least once per week), and
*are sudden and unpredictable.
In addition, the panic attacks must cause you serious problems with one of the following
*social functioning
*being able to leave your house
*focusing on tasks, or
*necessary activities like cooking, eating, dressing, bathing, and homemaking.
http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/win-can-you-get-disability-for-panic-attacks.html
Do you now see how Sarah's condition is defined as being disabled? If she was claiming social security for disability she would qualify,many people live normal lives having similar issues not classing themselves as disabled,but you wanted proof,here's your proof.
I still disagree with all your above points. This episode was weak writing. The fact that you can pick out themes and interpret them as you want is more indicative of effort on your part than Telltale's. It's clear that the writing was railroaded and lazy. And since our only other point of contention is that you think Sarah was portrayed respectfully and I don't, here I'm going to explain how (http://treedeecee.tumblr.com/post/95063446864/i-think-its-just-an-issue-with-the-game-the)
Her first death is treated as inevitable from the start, an unavoidable end for people like her. In Jane’s constant monologues comparing her to her dead sister, a parallel is drawn between Jaime and Sarah, pointing out that they were both the same. From what we can tell, Jaime seemed to have clinical depression, as Jane described her being unable to get out of bed, dwelling on death, and unable to motivate herself to move forward. Sarah on the other hand suffers from regular panic attacks, an anxiety disorder, and shows traits that many have interpreted as clear signs of being on the autism spectrum.
Jane claims that Sarah and Jaime were the same. Since Sarah clearly has not given up on living, it can only be interpreted that they are the same in the sense that they have inherent weaknesses, as Jane sees them, which are fundamentally part of who they are. Jane claims that “they had no regard for their own safety, or for ours”, as if it was their conscious decision to endanger others. And for this, they should be left behind.
This is an extremely common and harmful view, not just in the apocalyptic genre but in the real world, proclaiming people like Sarah who were born “not normal”, to be selfish. That it’s their fault for being the way they are, and for that they can be neglected, abused, or abandoned. They don’t deserve to live, simply because of being who they are.
There is no other side shown to this argument, you can never disagree with Jane or prove her wrong. The narrative is forcing this extremely harmful and biased view on its audience. It’s offensive because the idea that somebody should die simply because of who they are is a very harmful and common idea. It’s bad writing because it’s extremely unsatisfying, an overused cliche, and inconsistent with Sarah’s prior portrayal.
Suddenly it was like Telltale’s Sarah, who had previously been a very important and multidimensional character, ceased to exist, and was turned into Scapegoat Sarah, for the benefit of the “Sarah Is Useless” crowd. All of her strengths are downplayed, and her weaknesses are amplified. Telltale fails to portray Sarah’s death as the tragic loss of an innocent life. Instead, it’s the “right” call to leave her behind.
As for the second time she determinantly dies, it’s just biased and poor writing, plain and simple. Sarah is standing on top of the deck, falls, and then suddenly the laws of physics change and she’s trapped underneath the deck. Then you have another choice: save the smart, hardened survivalist, or risk her in order to try saving the “useless liability”? For some reason nobody else seems to notice the screaming girl crying for help below, and Jane is the only one who can make a move. If you do choose to convince Jane to save her, which takes multiple dialogue options, before she can save Sarah she is suddenly smacked in the face with random plot plank. To top it all off, no one - not even Clem- expresses genuine mourning for Sarah’s loss. The only responses even related to her are all to do with JANE, and not the innocent girl who just died. You can say “I know you tried,” “It was hopeless,” or “You didn’t try hard enough.”
There is no “Sarah was a good person”, no option for closure or acknowledgement of her death. Instead, it’s all about Jane, the pragmatic sensible badass, who did nothing but belittle and dehumanize Sarah from the start.
I'm giving an example to show my point
The disabled are less privileged than the abled. Ableism is discrimination against the disabled. It is not as well known as racism but it is just as important an issue.
yup, i'm on my way right now
Um I just described in my reply that the way you were applying the rule doesn't count. I wasn't denying that you see a tv screen with your eyes and that's a way of showing, not telling... I said that if anything Telltale was telling, not showing in this episode. The way you were applying "show don't tell" was because you seem to think that facial animations are enough of a satisfying end for Sarah's character arc because it means that somebody felt bad that she died.
wait a second. How is my being predictable here a bad thing exactly? I thought it meant that I have my points and I'm standing by them. Not changing them around whenever I need to in order to win the argument? are you just trying to offend me now?
1.) it's in combination that the slap along with all my other points that matters. That's why I keep talking about this. Read my original post in my thread http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/77474/. It clearly mentions Clem's slap as being part of this disrespectful depiction of Sarah, & now Telltale's employees have only confirmed what I was afraid of, that if anything it was basically included for the benefit of the anti-Sarah club.
2.) No arguments there
3.5) No. Carver didn't need a catalyst. He needed an excuse. It was his plan from the start.
3.8) Losing your zest for life, uninterested in events, suicidal thoughts, giving up on the world, catatonic behavior= symptoms of depression. Whether brought on by everyday life or the apocalypse, depression is depression.
4.) Authors can't pick favorites. That leads to weak writing. They can have favorites, but it must not be made apparent in the writing. They must treat each of their characters fairly. (And btw I never said that Sarah's behavior itself was disrespectful in this episode. Her character itself acted fairly consistently and logically. But the narrative itself did all it could to paint her in an extremely one-sided light)
Sure there are positives in Telltale's writing. But I'm not here to discuss that.
And why is it that my criticism becomes "hate" when it gets personal for me? And therefore you don't have to listen?
Refusing to take responsibility for when you offend people is a shitty thing to do. The majority of people don't have a problem with the depiction of the disabled in media because they're not disabled. It never affects them. So it doesn't matter to them. Whether or not they were offended doesn't matter because it does not apply to them. But the people who were offended have every right to be.
She was killed off with no reaction or significance to the plot except for a point that was offensive, that people like her are simply not "meant" to survive.
A disability is a disability.
The narrative is clear that Sarah died because she was disabled.
Jane claims that Sarah and Jaime were the same. Since Sarah clearly has not given up on living, it can only be interpreted that they are the same in the sense that they have inherent weaknesses, as Jane sees them, which are actually disabilities, which are fundamentally part of who they are. Jane claims that “they had no regard for their own safety, or for ours”, as if it was their conscious decision to endanger others. And for this, they should be left behind.
This is an extremely common and harmful view, not just in the apocalyptic genre but in the real world, proclaiming people like Sarah who were born “not normal”, to be selfish. That it’s their fault for being the way they are, and for that they can be neglected, abused, or abandoned. They don’t deserve to live, simply because of being who they are.
There is no other side shown to this argument, you can barely disagree with Jane and you can never prove her wrong. The narrative is forcing this extremely harmful and biased view on its audience.
edit and I disagree. The only way you can save her in the trailer is forceful. You have to slap her
So you haven't seen a disabled person complain about Sarah's portrayal yet. But you're going to write it off as soon as you do see it. Ok then.
Expressions of grief and disgust are animations. Not writing. The writers wrote down the animators instructions for facial animation. Then they left out the part where they do their jobs in the writing.
So it only becomes a fact when the right number of people are offended?
Never said Telltale hates disabled people. I said their depiction of Sarah was offensive and plays right into the media's false beliefs about people with disabilities.
Nah, the OP just found it funny. As did I when I read this.
Love you
I don't really see how I can make it much clearer but I'll go that extra mile just for you
Jonah has a LOT more fans and people who know his name to offend, and he called a living breathing person a "faggot.", which I'm sure you know is a derogatory term for homosexuals. If Jonah didn't apologise, it would ruin his credibility as an actor and celebrity and damage his status immensely.
Greg stated his opinion on a video game character, which is from a video game designed to make people make horrible decisions and split opinions. Greg didn't say his opinion of the character to outright offend anybody, he only stated his opinion of Sarah, to which the developers nodded and agreed, it's his opinion and in his game he's allowed to make his own decisions. People have deliberately nit-picked at his words and have become offended when that was not the original intent.
Both Jonah and Greg have upset people, and Jonah is on a higher social standing than Greg so he needed to apologise to keep his career intact, whilst Greg could have dismissed it but didn't. Does it make it any less of an issue because more people know about Jonah than Greg? No, it doesn't. But the only hatred Greg will get is from some nasty internet trolls in forums, whilst Jonah would be shunned from celebrity society and would be pissed on in the public eye.
If I was a mass murderer, taking people into the cellar and cutting them up and bathing in their blood but nobody knew I did that, would it make it any less of an issue? No. But no one would know about the issue, so who is there to be concerned and offended?
You should note that I said, in the last paragraph, that only the bracketed words of the first sentence were aimed at you.
And no, I'm not trying to offend you. If I was, I would make it clear, likely with a 'are you stupid?' kind of question or I wouldn't hold back what I thought of someone as I tend to be rather blunt. However, I am getting fed up of everything and that is coming across in my posts. I didn't say you being predictable was a bad thing either. It's just that I anticipated you'd shoot down much of what I said and I knew you'd pull the 'games are different' card. I am surprised that you agreed on point 2 in your second post though.
Anyway, I don't want to debate this anymore.
PS: Glad to see the downvote option has been removed.
Carlos had to slap Sarah to prevent anyone else from hurting her.
Clementine had to slap Sarah in order to save her at the trailer park.
Sarah was practically abused by those she trusted most in her last days.
Right. So I’m not allowed to make light of anything. But I also have to stop taking everything so seriously. Who knew?
Hey, come one, let's not argue today. I'm exhausted because of the other shit that's going on in the forum right now.
That's great for you that you were mature and responsible enough at 17 to live on your own independently. But where I'm from, under 18 = child. And like I said before, please read my other comments and opinions on the matter before you make the judgement that I'm overreacting.
There was nothing to give a split opinion on Sarah this episode. There was nothing but negativity shown by Telltale this episode toward her. In prior episodes and in this episode, Sarah showed clear signs and symptoms of disabilities. But she wasn't a bad person. She never purposely did anything wrong.
And yet, even before this episode, Greg hated her. Along with lots of people. They hated her, and were happy that she died.
They hated and wanted to kill a character who never did anything wrong.
Ask any Sarah hater why they wanted Sarah to die or why they disliked her. They will tell you that it was because she was "stupid, annoying, useless, retarded, a liability".
All words regularly used to describe disabled people.
I think you can fill in the rest of the blanks.
What are you even talking about? So because I don’t know you’re a murderer, I’m not appalled, so that makes it ok that I’m not appalled?
How does that even apply to this situation? It doesn't even make any sense.
Yeah, I think most of us have exhausted all our energy in terms of arguing. I'll simply say I disagree with your points, TT247, and maybe I'll counter them later. We may as well just cease the argument seeing as we're both starting to repeat ourselves.
I've got a crazy idea. Why don't we all forget about our arguments and try to have fun only once? Who knows, it might actually work.
But seriously, yeah. I'm tired of all the drama... I originally joined the forums to have friendly discussions but most of my posts involve heated arguing.
So, TT247... What's your favourite character? Favourite TWD episode out of all of them?
I've got a crazy idea, too. How about we all have a calm argument that doesn't devolve into personal insults whenever one side or the other is winning?
I don't think I've insulted you before and if I have I apologize.
We've discussed enough IMO. Why don't we get along? Who knows, we might actually start liking each other around here. Crazy thought, I know.
?
So tell me, what's your favorite TWD character
I have complained about Sarah's representation being disabled myself and no its not overreacting. I've stated many times before that I did not want to watch a fiction where my problems were displayed and laughed at just like they are in real life. The "majority" are not silent they have been harassing every opinion that is given and then blowing those opinions out of proportion..
Hell, the two devs in the interview said the office was split on how they viewed Sarah! "Nothing but negativity." That's simply not true and I don't see what you get out of it for making that "fact" up. Lots of people hated Duck and wanted him to die, yet he never did anything wrong. Where are the hate threads for him? Okay, so the words "stupid, annoying, useless, retarded and liability" describe disabled people? Well, Retard is accurate. There are such people who are retards... that's just how it is, that's not abuse. Even though she's quite clearly not disabled, she WAS a liability. In the trailer park it looked like Jane or Sarah would die, and I don't blame people for choosing the functioning badass than the girl who had gone in to shutdown.
Oh my god, do you take everything literally? I don't know how I can make it any more simple. I'm sorry, but at this point it's looking like you have more of a disability than Sarah.
Does not knowing about a murder make it any less wrong? NO. But if you don't know about something, how can you possibly care about it?
Less people know about what Greg has done to upset people, so the people who don't know can't possibly care, can they?
More people know about what Jonah has done to upset people, and people talk about celebrities. I'm not going to text my friend saying "Oh, did you see what Greg Miller said?"
How about I dumb it down even further?
There's more gays that will be offended by what Jonah says, than there are dumb-as-shit Sarah fans who will twist Greg's words and get offended.
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