Probably only his meltdown on Mike in Episode Three causing walkers to break into the compound. I can't really think of anything else that I have a problem with, as far as it being justifiable or not justifiable.
To me it seemed like you were trying to justify all of his bad actions
If that's not you, as a matter of interest what do you think are Kenny's worst, non-justifiable actions?
Kenny´s plan in the truck was a LITTLE reckless? Are you fucking kidding me? He didn´t know what to expect at the camp´s arrival and didn´t even listen to the cabin group, who was there before and knew Carver, then he start talking shit about punching and shooting sonuvabitches as the truck opens. And no, this plan would NEVER work. So what if only Tavia, Bonnie and Troy were in front of the truck? You can see dozens of armed guards spread across the camp as they were marching to the yard. There is no excuse in this one, Kenny getting knocked out before getting in action was a god-send.
You've literally just ignored what I said because I completely agree with what you're saying.
You're giving reasons why his anger is unde… morerstandable. It IS understandable. But that still doesn't make yelling at a child objectively 'right'.
Look at Lilly for instance. Her father died, she had nothing to live for, Kenny tried to leave her behind after she saved them from bandits. Then she snaps and commits a murder.
Lilly's actions there are understandable. She was pushed and hated and left to die by the people she was trying to save. But that does NOT make her murder objectively 'right'.
I got him to apologize, but it wasn't very heartfelt. He just said it wasn't right of him to burden you with all this. Either way, I still don't care for him.
He doesn't apologise after for the vast majority of people.
Like literally, he never once thinks 'Oh my god, I said all those things to a… more kid I care about, I better apologise'. He pretends nothing happened for the rest of the episode for 99% of people.
Since this is a Kenny thead, I'd like to hear you guys' reactions to Kenny flipping out on Clem even if she didn't even touch Sarita. I'm a Kenny fan, by the way. This is not a question promoting Ken hate or anything. Logically, we can look at this two different ways. Let's get to it.
Option #1: Do you think it was just Kenny being Kenny? We all know Ken. Most of the time, if not always, he will attempt taking out his frustrations on someone else. He has a lot of flaws. This, however, is why some of us love him.
Option #2: Bad writing, maybe? I've seen users suggest Telltale pulled a lazy move here. Backing their arguments up with the Arvo situation. Is there any chance Telltale didn't bother changing the outcome a bit? I'm not too sure on this. I wouldn't completely rule it out, though.
So, was this Kenny being Kenny, or lazy writing? I'd like to hear what others think of this. Maybe it'll help me make up my mind.
What about the fact Kenny no longer cares, even the slightest, for Clementine anymore?
You see, Kenny has PTSD. Which means he connects only with people or things that remind him of people and things he cared about. Once Sarita died, Kenny took it upon himself to connect the events with Katjaa and Duck's death and decided to perpetuate Clementine as some kind of evil-doer who wronged him. Which is shitty, no matter how you cut it.
I believe the only people who can still find excuses for Kenny are either in some kind of denial or are much more forgiving than I am. But the way he "handled" Carver was... unsettling. And after episode four it's obvious that the man is a danger to the people around him. No longer a "guardian," but a "threat" to Clementine's survival.
I feel like he was added in at the last moment, because if you remember S2 E1 , Carlos is supposed to be the guy who flies off the handle, t… morehen by episode 3 he is pretty much rewritten as the cautious guy. I wonder what kind of story they were going to give us with Carlos, It will never be known.
You need to understand the context of the situation. In Kenny's mind, they were potentially screwed if they were taken to some lockup. He didn't want to get into that situation. He would rather take his chances in a fight than be helplessly locked away. That is why the plan was not completely reckless. (As an aside, these are Kenny's actual thoughts on the matter, not just me speculating)
And yes, the plan could have worked if everyone had followed it. Tavia, Bonnie, and Troy were standing literally at the entrance to the back of the truck with their guns lowered. They were not prepared for a group of people to jump them from out of the truck. It is certainly very possible that the group would have overpowered them, taken their weapons, gotten into the truck, and then drove away.
Kenny´s plan in the truck was a LITTLE reckless? Are you fucking kidding me? He didn´t know what to expect at the camp´s arrival and didn´t … moreeven listen to the cabin group, who was there before and knew Carver, then he start talking shit about punching and shooting sonuvabitches as the truck opens. And no, this plan would NEVER work. So what if only Tavia, Bonnie and Troy were in front of the truck? You can see dozens of armed guards spread across the camp as they were marching to the yard. There is no excuse in this one, Kenny getting knocked out before getting in action was a god-send.
Also, while I know you make efforts to appear neutral, the fact that you tried to turn every single action of his into a positive comes across as slightly Kenny apologisty lord-and-saviour-y.
While you did bring up valid arguments, the conclusions that came from them weren't really appropriate, in my opinion. Here go some examples:
it is really a silly thing to argue about as any character who takes up any amount of space in the game is going to take away potential development time from other characters.
He could have remained bitter and depressed until it sunk the rest of the group down with him, but he isn’t about that. Instead, he put his own needs aside and delivered a baby.
why would he just assume that Carver (someone he knows nothing about) would spare everyone’s life if he laid down his gun and gave himself up? As far as he knew, Carver could have just gunned down the entire group once he had them all at his mercy.
The arguments above are all valid. These ones are not:
Just because you happen to be sick of him or have a personal distaste for his character does not mean the guy does not have a reason to be around.
You just mentioned the main reason that some people didn't want Kenny in this season: he's overshadowing other unexplored characters. While some DO dislike Kenny's very presence because they dislike the character himself, there are many people who don't, and with this conclusion of yours, you're simply ignoring the latter.
There is no logical reason to blame Kenny for this incident, and it does not even show a hint of recklessness on his part.
That was very, very exaggerated. Not even a hint of recklessness? Carver had a group of 4 people armed with assault rifles who had Kenny's own group as well as the cabin group as hostages. If starting a gun fight against Carver in this situation wasn't reckless then I don't know what is. This seems pretty logical (not to say obvious) to me.
Besides, his recklessness comes from way before all this, it started in season 1, although it is much more evident in this season.
Is it really difficult to understand why he was so bitter?
No it isn't, we who criticize Kenny for this event (or most of us at least) DO understand why he acted they way he did. The problem was that he threw his rage and grief at Clementine, who had just been doing her best to help Sarita. Kenny mistreated a child who already was an emotional wreck just because of his selfish issues. Clem has no real protector anymore, no one she can appeal to. The last thing she needed was to have the only person from her past who is still alive be a complete asshole toward her and yell at her.
In the end Kenny will always have his issues, the guy is only human for goodness sake. People tend to forget the amount of crap the man has been put through since Season 1 to 2. I'll admit, I didn't agree with some of his actions in Season 1. He was too focused on what he thought was right for his family that he never took time to consider how other people might see it. Killing Larry is when I realised that he wasn't always the most well-minded of people. But I agreed to help for some reason because in a way he was right, if you didn't act on it he would have come back and killed everyone. But it still doesn't make it the right option.
There's a key word, "Right". Kenny does what he does to keep going because he had a family, or in season 2 he has Clementine or the baby. The man follows his own ways of doing things and yeah that does get on my nerves, because he doesn't deal with situations properly some times (The Meat Locker and Carver Shootout where the best examples of that)
But if there's anything I can commend the man for it's his heart.
Kenny has such a strong heart and it shows a lot. In Season 1 the guy would defend his kid to the death, spend time bonding with him on a swing, denying so hard that his son would end up dying, breaking down and crying when his wife and child died, and sacrificing himself to save Christa or Ben. In season 2 the guy cries and cherishes the moment he reunites with Clem, he goes and takes a full on beating from Carver so that she doesn't get beat up.
In the end Kenny's just human, he makes mistakes and has a personality that can be hard to work with, but he is a good man, maybe if it doesn't always show.
Granted but that negative action weights a bit more on Lillys side than it did with Kenny in their scenarios.
I mean Kenny isn't always the most calm minded of people and yeah he says things he shouldn't, but the guy does care for her, i mean he willingly took a beating for her in episode 3.
But in the end your right, he shouldn't have talked to her like that, but it doesn't really bother me too much, the guy has done a lot of good things for her this season that makes what he said a minor negative for me.
We DO understand why he acted the way he did That does not make his actions morally correct, just as understanding Lilly's mental condition does not justify hers.
I have to agree with Flog61 here:
Also, while I know you make efforts to appear neutral, the fact that you tried to turn every single … moreaction of his into a positive comes across as slightly Kenny apologisty lord-and-saviour-y.
While you did bring up valid arguments, the conclusions that came from them weren't really appropriate, in my opinion. Here go some examples:
it is really a silly thing to argue about as any character who takes up any amount of space in the game is going to take away potential development time from other characters.
He could have remained bitter and depressed until it sunk the rest of the group down with him, but he isn’t about that. Instead, he put his own needs aside and delivered a baby.
why would he just assume that Carver (someone he knows nothing about) would spare everyone’s life if he laid down his gun and gave himself up? As far as he knew, Carver could have just gunned down the… [view original content]
The trouble is what you said applies to nearly every single character that's been in the game, so doesn't really mean anything. All of them are 'just human', all of them 'make mistakes' and all are fundamentally good people.
Also, Nick lost his Mum, uncle and several close friends within a few weeks. Kenny isn't the only one who's lsot people, as Clem pointed out, and yet he remains one of the rudest characters. We can't justify everything abd he does by saying 'he's lost people'. Everyone's lost people.
In the end Kenny will always have his issues, the guy is only human for goodness sake. People tend to forget the amount of crap the man has … morebeen put through since Season 1 to 2. I'll admit, I didn't agree with some of his actions in Season 1. He was too focused on what he thought was right for his family that he never took time to consider how other people might see it. Killing Larry is when I realised that he wasn't always the most well-minded of people. But I agreed to help for some reason because in a way he was right, if you didn't act on it he would have come back and killed everyone. But it still doesn't make it the right option.
There's a key word, "Right". Kenny does what he does to keep going because he had a family, or in season 2 he has Clementine or the baby. The man follows his own ways of doing things and yeah that does get on my nerves, because he doesn't deal with situations properly some times (The Meat Locker and Carver … [view original content]
Its a shame than fan service look over from storytelling.
Well look at how Clementine's character is now. I find it odd how she would give this speech about not leaving people behind, then she does it herself with Sarah. They are trying to turn her into Solid Clementine, when they don't need to.
The trouble is what you said applies to nearly every single character that's been in the game, so doesn't really mean anything. All of them … moreare 'just human', all of them 'make mistakes' and all are fundamentally good people.
Also, Nick lost his Mum, uncle and several close friends within a few weeks. Kenny isn't the only one who's lsot people, as Clem pointed out, and yet he remains one of the rudest characters. We can't justify everything abd he does by saying 'he's lost people'. Everyone's lost people.
You just mentioned the main reason that some people didn't want Kenny in this season: he's overshadowing other unexplored characters. While some DO dislike Kenny's very presence because they dislike the character himself, there are many people who don't, and with this conclusion of yours, you're simply ignoring the latter.
I understand that there are some people who do not dislike Kenny's presence simply because they dislike the character himself. Their reasoning is that Kenny hogs the spotlight/ overshadows other characters and takes away development from other characters. I have already touched on this in my original post. Any character that is getting screen time is taking away potential development from other characters. It is unavoidable. Him overshadowing other characters is a subjective viewpoint, considering he doesn't get any more screen time than the other major characters in the game. Considering the viewpoint is subjective, people who tend to say that Kenny overshadows others tend to say so simply because they do not like the guy. Again, this isn't always the case, but it does happen. Which is why I said what I said.
That was very, very exaggerated. Not even a hint of recklessness? Carver had a group of 4 people armed with assault rifles who had Kenny's own group as well as the cabin group as hostages. If starting a gun fight against Carver in this situation wasn't reckless then I don't know what is. This seems pretty logical (not to say obvious) to me
What was exaggerated? It ultimately does not matter what Carver's group was armed with or how many people he had. It was all about not giving up. Like I said in the original post, if he simply gave up everyone could have been executed for all he knew. If he ran away everyone could have been executed for all he knew. There was no way for him to know that Carver was going to spare them.
Besides, his recklessness comes from way before all this, it started in season 1, although it is much more evident in this season.
This thread is only looking at his actions from season two, which is why I didn't touch on any of that. It really doesn't matter what he did in season one when solely looking at how his character has behaved in season two.
we who criticize Kenny for this event (or most of us at least) DO understand why he acted they way he did. The problem was that he threw his rage and grief at Clementine, who had just been doing her best to help Sarita. Kenny mistreated a child who already was an emotional wreck just because of his selfish issues. Clem has no real protector anymore, no one she can appeal to. The last thing she needed was to have the only person from her past who is still alive be a complete asshole toward her and yell at her.
And the entire point of what I was saying in regards to this was in regards to forgiving him. I meant understand in the sense of forgiveness. Probably should have been more clear.
I have to agree with Flog61 here:
Also, while I know you make efforts to appear neutral, the fact that you tried to turn every single … moreaction of his into a positive comes across as slightly Kenny apologisty lord-and-saviour-y.
While you did bring up valid arguments, the conclusions that came from them weren't really appropriate, in my opinion. Here go some examples:
it is really a silly thing to argue about as any character who takes up any amount of space in the game is going to take away potential development time from other characters.
He could have remained bitter and depressed until it sunk the rest of the group down with him, but he isn’t about that. Instead, he put his own needs aside and delivered a baby.
why would he just assume that Carver (someone he knows nothing about) would spare everyone’s life if he laid down his gun and gave himself up? As far as he knew, Carver could have just gunned down the… [view original content]
If you cut off Saritas arm he was jjustified in being angry imo. It wasnt really your right to do that. If you didnt cut off Saritas arm well then fuck kenny he had no right to blame you for her death
What about the fact Kenny no longer cares, even the slightest, for Clementine anymore?
What is that based on? The fact that he insulted her one time while being completely grief stricken? He shows more care for her than otherwise.
You see, Kenny has PTSD. Which means he connects only with people or things that remind him of people and things he cared about. Once Sarita died, Kenny took it upon himself to connect the events with Katjaa and Duck's death
Because the events were 100% relevant to each other. He was simply talking about the people that he has lost..
decided to perpetuate Clementine as some kind of evil-doer who wronged him. Which is shitty, no matter how you cut it.
Alright, but that really has nothing to do with PTSD. It was simple grief. He obviously lets it go as the episode moves along.
And after episode four it's obvious that the man is a danger to the people around him. No longer a "guardian," but a "threat" to Clementine's survival.
Have anything to base that on? Sounds like you just don't like the guy.
What about the fact Kenny no longer cares, even the slightest, for Clementine anymore?
You see, Kenny has PTSD. Which means he connects o… morenly with people or things that remind him of people and things he cared about. Once Sarita died, Kenny took it upon himself to connect the events with Katjaa and Duck's death and decided to perpetuate Clementine as some kind of evil-doer who wronged him. Which is shitty, no matter how you cut it.
I believe the only people who can still find excuses for Kenny are either in some kind of denial or are much more forgiving than I am. But the way he "handled" Carver was... unsettling. And after episode four it's obvious that the man is a danger to the people around him. No longer a "guardian," but a "threat" to Clementine's survival.
Yes, actually. if you are hesitant on killing Rebecca, Kenny kills her without a second thought. Now, I'm not going to hold this against him. Because, given the circumstance, it was understandable. However, I will draw comparisons between that act and the "vicious" act of Clementine hacking off (or not) Sarita's arm in the walker horde. Seeing as though they were nearly identical in terms of circumstance.
Clementine hacks Sarita's arm off in the hope of preserving her life, we can agree on that, correct? Kenny kills Rebecca in order to preserve the baby's life... however, both result in very unfavorable outcomes. That shot very well resulting in many unnecessary deaths and bloodshed. Now, Belan, if you don't call that a threat of some description... I can't get through to you. He very clearly is a danger, whether intentional or otherwise, to the survival of the group.
"Sounds like you just don't like the guy."
Yep, that too. We've already had this discussion though.
What about the fact Kenny no longer cares, even the slightest, for Clementine anymore?
What is that based on? The fact that he insul… moreted her one time while being completely grief stricken? He shows more care for her than otherwise.
You see, Kenny has PTSD. Which means he connects only with people or things that remind him of people and things he cared about. Once Sarita died, Kenny took it upon himself to connect the events with Katjaa and Duck's death
Because the events were 100% relevant to each other. He was simply talking about the people that he has lost..
decided to perpetuate Clementine as some kind of evil-doer who wronged him. Which is shitty, no matter how you cut it.
Alright, but that really has nothing to do with PTSD. It was simple grief. He obviously lets it go as the episode moves along.
And after episode four it's obvious that the man is a danger to the people around him. No longer a "g… [view original content]
Yes, actually. if you are hesitant on killing Rebecca, Kenny kills her without a second thought. Now, I'm not going to hold this against him. Because, given the circumstance, it was understandable. However, I will draw comparisons between that act and the "vicious" act of Clementine hacking off (or not) Sarita's arm in the walker horde. Seeing as though they were nearly identical in terms of circumstance. Clementine hacks Sarita's arm off in the hope of preserving her life, we can agree on that, correct? Kenny kills Rebecca in order to preserve the baby's life... however, both result in very unfavorable outcomes. That shot very well resulting in many unnecessary deaths and bloodshed.
They aren't identical in circumstance at all. I really don't know why you're so big into apples-oranges comparisons. You can't just look at the end result of these situations and then call the circumstances identical. That makes no sense. Did you maybe mean to say the "intentions" were the same? If so, I guess I could get behind that, though I have no clue why you're even bringing this comparison up in the first place.
Now, Belan, if you don't call that a threat of some description... I can't get through to you. He very clearly is a danger, whether intentional or otherwise, to the survival of the group.
Kenny is a clear danger to the group just because he decided to save a baby from getting eaten alive?
"Have anything to base that on?"
Yes, actually. if you are hesitant on killing Rebecca, Kenny kills her without a second thought. Now, I'… morem not going to hold this against him. Because, given the circumstance, it was understandable. However, I will draw comparisons between that act and the "vicious" act of Clementine hacking off (or not) Sarita's arm in the walker horde. Seeing as though they were nearly identical in terms of circumstance.
Clementine hacks Sarita's arm off in the hope of preserving her life, we can agree on that, correct? Kenny kills Rebecca in order to preserve the baby's life... however, both result in very unfavorable outcomes. That shot very well resulting in many unnecessary deaths and bloodshed. Now, Belan, if you don't call that a threat of some description... I can't get through to you. He very clearly is a danger, whether intentional or otherwise, to the survival of the group.
"Sounds like you just don't like the guy."
Yep, that too. We've already had this discussion though.
Kenny doesn't belong in season 2 not only because he died in season 1 but because his story concluded in season 1. Kenny's story was about a man who had everything, fought to protect what was his even sometimes at the expense of others, but still lost everything. It nearly broke him, but at the very end, he reaches deep and finds more strength. He dies putting Ben out of his misery or he dies saving Christa. When Kenny had nothing left to lose, he stopped being selfish and gave more. It was a great death and showed who Kenny really was.
By resurrecting Kenny for season 2, Kenny's story was undone. Instead of being a man who redeemed himself with the ultimate sacrifice, he was a man who ran off when the rest of the group still needed him and didn't bother to look for people. Then when he came back in Season 2, his story from season 1 was repeated (starts out with a family, loses it, gets depressed, etc), but not done as well. Bringing Kenny back lessened his character and nothing new was said about him in Season 2. He's just there for nostalgia and fan service, which is sad, considering his character was better than that.
Kenny is reckless not because of the lodge but because he tried to bust out of the van and get his group killed. He also insisted that Clem take the walkie talkie, even though Clem was being watched and said it would be safer for Mike to take it. Kenny lost his eye because he backtalked Carver, not because he took responsibility for the walkie talkie. At that point Carver was still trying to play nice, but when Kenny challenged him, Carver had to beat him. Losing your eye because you can't keep your mouth shut is pretty reckless.
The gruesome killing of Carver wasn't that reckless. It was a waste of time because the zombies were coming, but really it didn't take that long.
Kenny unloaded on a young girl who is his family, blaming her for Sarita's death when Sarita was already dead once the zombie bit her. Kenny used to lash out at Lee (and Ben and Lilly, etc); now he lashes out at a little girl. There's no justification, no reason to be baffled by people who hold Kenny accountable for how he treats people, especially someone like Clem who is part of his family now. If anything, it's sick how far people bend morality to defend him. Clem is the victim of Kenny's abuse, yet people defend Kenny. If Kenny had beat Clem (just like Carver did), would people still defend him? Emotional and physical abuse are both pretty bad. Understanding why Kenny is upset is an excuse for his actions, not a justification. Also, Kenny only apologizes if Clem stands there like a doormat and takes his full attack. Does that seem right to you, letting someone walk all over you to get along with them?
As far as rushing to help with the baby, Clem did that, not Kenny. Clem let him attack her so that Rebecca could get the help she needed. Clem is the leader, the beacon of hope for the group, and she did what had to be done, even if it meant sacrificing herself. (And again, this is the same story arc as season 1, where Kenny loses everything but digs deep and gives more. Except that in Season 1 he digs deep and rallies himself, whereas in Season 2, Clem rallies him by letting him abuse her. That's a much weaker version of the story, which again is why Kenny's story was told better the first time in season 1 and he should not be in season 2.)
That being said, it is possible for certain characters to hog screentime. We do not see that from Kenny though. Despite what a few people have said around these parts, he has not gotten any more screentime than any of the other members of the group
It's never been screentime that I complain about as it pertains to Kenny, but development, which Kenny is most certainly hogging up. Carver was a part of the cabin group's backstory, and yet Kenny's the one who takes him down and cuts his arc short prematurely purely for his development. Kenny is the only one who knows what to do about the pregnancy (ultimate bullshit considering what Clementine must know by now) for his development. Kenny is the one who pushes most of the drama in episode 3 because he's doing the same song and dance as season 1 (being reckless, hotheaded, not planning ahead) and is the main character that gets focused upon aside from Carver, again, despite the fact that Carver is supposed to be tied to the cabin group, not Kenny. Kenny is going through the same damn grieving storyline as season 1 with little to nothing that differentiates it. Meanwhile, what did we know about characters like Carlos or Alvin before they bit the dust? I don't know, because episode 3 was too busy pushing Kenny to the forefront while giving those two characters, who were directly tied to Carver in episode 2, the shaft and keeping them off-screen most of the time and only a limited role when they were on-screen.
Kenny's undeservedly hogging the spotlight, plain and simple.
Seriously, why would he just assume that Carver (someone he knows nothing about) would spare everyone’s life if he laid down his gun and gave himself up?
And shooting someone that's a part of this group of bad guys is a better idea? Doesn't it seem like that would give them ample reason to gun everyone down because of it? You're right that Kenny couldn't have known what was going on, but firing off like that while still not knowing what the hell is going on is very reckless. Let's just face facts here, it's because of Kenny that Walter died, and determinately, Alvin, because he forced Carver's hand. This doesn't make Kenny a bad person, and ultimately, Carver is mainly to blame for doing what he did, but Kenny had a role in it, make no mistake. The fact that he didn't have prior knowledge of who Carver was doesn't change that fact. Carlos was right, there are consequences to rash actions. Consequence doesn't care who's the better person in any given situation. Good or bad, if you make the wrong call, you pay the price.
Yes, actually. if you are hesitant on killing Rebecca, Kenny kills her without a second thought. Now, I'm not going to hold this against him… more. Because, given the circumstance, it was understandable. However, I will draw comparisons between that act and the "vicious" act of Clementine hacking off (or not) Sarita's arm in the walker horde. Seeing as though they were nearly identical in terms of circumstance. Clementine hacks Sarita's arm off in the hope of preserving her life, we can agree on that, correct? Kenny kills Rebecca in order to preserve the baby's life... however, both result in very unfavorable outcomes. That shot very well resulting in many unnecessary deaths and bloodshed.
They aren't identical in circumstance at all. I really don't know why you're so big into apples-oranges comparisons. You can't just look at the end result of these situations and then call the circumstances identical. That makes no sense. Did you maybe me… [view original content]
You didn't address the key points. Kenny doesn't belong in season 2 not only because he died in season 1 but because his story concluded in season 1. By resurrecting Kenny for season 2, Kenny's story was undone. Instead of being a man who redeemed himself with the ultimate sacrifice, he was a man who ran off when the rest of the group still needed him and didn't bother to look for people. Then when he came back in Season 2, his story from season 1 was repeated (starts out with a family, loses it, gets depressed, etc), but not done as well. Bringing Kenny back lessened his character and nothing new was said about him in Season 2. He's just there for nostalgia and fan service, which is sad, considering his character was better than that.
Ok..? I don't think you understand what I was doing with this thread. I was addressing several popular points that I have seen throughout the forums. Considering I chose what particular subjects to talk about, I didn't fail to address anything.
I really don't even want to address your points here as it is entirely opinion based, and nothing else.
Kenny is reckless not because of the lodge but because he tried to bust out of the van and get his group killed.
I already addressed this...
He also insisted that Clem take the walkie talkie, even though Clem was being watched and said it would be safer for Mike to take it.
Determinate point, most people took the walkie talkie on their own accord. Everyone was being watched, not just Clem. She was the most logical person to choose to carry out the task. She is a member of the group, and never has a problem with wanting to pull her weight. Now you want to start treating her like a helpless little kid? Clem has never been about that.
Kenny lost his eye because he backtalked Carver, not because he took responsibility for the walkie talkie. At that point Carver was still trying to play nice, but when Kenny challenged him, Carver had to beat him. Losing your eye because you can't keep your mouth shut is pretty reckless.
Umm... what? Kenny didn't say a single word before Carver decided to punish him. Kenny said "Heh.. fucker" because he knew he was about to be punished even though he did what Carver wanted. Kenny didn't just randomly decide to insult Carver.
Kenny unloaded on a young girl who is his family, blaming her for Sarita's death when Sarita was already dead once the zombie bit her. Kenny used to lash out at Lee (and Ben and Lilly, etc); now he lashes out at a little girl. There's no justification, no reason to be baffled by people who hold Kenny accountable for how he treats people, especially someone like Clem who is part of his family now. If anything, it's sick how far people bend morality to defend him. Clem is the victim of Kenny's abuse, yet people defend Kenny. If Kenny had beat Clem (just like Carver did), would people still defend him? Emotional and physical abuse are both pretty bad. Understanding why Kenny is upset is an excuse for his actions, not a justification. Also, Kenny only apologizes if Clem stands there like a doormat and takes his full attack. Does that seem right to you, letting someone walk all over you to get along with them?
I already addressed all of this. And are you really comparing blaming her for the death of Sarita to beating her to a pulp? Come on. There is a difference between venting grief and intentionally inflicting physical harm upon someone.
As far as rushing to help with the baby, Clem did that, not Kenny. Clem let him attack her so that Rebecca could get the help she needed.
She helped him to cope maybe, I don't know. Nothing to prove either way really. Either way, Kenny gets over his issues and helps to deliver the baby when no one else could. Give credit where it is due.
You didn't address the key points.
Kenny doesn't belong in season 2 not only because he died in season 1 but because his story concluded … morein season 1. Kenny's story was about a man who had everything, fought to protect what was his even sometimes at the expense of others, but still lost everything. It nearly broke him, but at the very end, he reaches deep and finds more strength. He dies putting Ben out of his misery or he dies saving Christa. When Kenny had nothing left to lose, he stopped being selfish and gave more. It was a great death and showed who Kenny really was.
By resurrecting Kenny for season 2, Kenny's story was undone. Instead of being a man who redeemed himself with the ultimate sacrifice, he was a man who ran off when the rest of the group still needed him and didn't bother to look for people. Then when he came back in Season 2, his story from season 1 was repeated (starts out with a family, loses it, gets depressed, etc… [view original content]
Well i know he didn't have to be in season 2 but we were all still happy anyways when he first showed up. think my main problem with him is just because he was in season 1, that seems to be an unfair advantage with him. But that really isn't his fault. I forgave him for yelling at clem, but that doesn't make up for everything else he has done.
Man if dislikes were still around you'd be downvoted like crazy.
t's never been screentime that I complain about as it pertains to Kenny, but development, which Kenny is most certainly hogging up. Carver was a part of the cabin group's backstory, and yet Kenny's the one who takes him down and cuts his arc short prematurely purely for his development. Kenny is the only one who knows what to do about the pregnancy (ultimate bullshit considering what Clementine must know by now) for his development. Kenny is the one who pushes most of the drama in episode 3 because he's doing the same song and dance as season 1 (being reckless, hotheaded, not planning ahead) and is the main character that gets focused upon aside from Carver, again, despite the fact that Carver is supposed to be tied to the cabin group, not Kenny. Kenny is going through the same damn grieving storyline as season 1 with little to nothing that differentiates it. Meanwhile, what did we know about characters like Carlos or Alvin before they bit the dust? I don't know, because episode 3 was too busy pushing Kenny to the forefront while giving those two characters, who were directly tied to Carver in episode 2, the shaft and keeping them off-screen most of the time and only a limited role when they were on-screen.
You're missing the point. Kenny being there is doing nothing to prevent the writers from exploring other character's back stories. If a writer really wanted to take off and do something crazy with Carlos they could have done so. It's not impossible to do both, as we saw in season one. They simply never did it. And lets be honest, Kenny isn't really in the spotlight any more than most of the other major characters. The only exception is Episode 3, where he was kind of the lead dog.
Jane is proof that other characters can be in the spotlight and be well developed while Kenny is in the picture. Luke also continues to be developed. Bonnie and Mike as well.
And shooting someone that's a part of this group of bad guys is a better idea? Doesn't it seem like that would give them ample reason to gun everyone down because of it?
And what's the alternative? Run away like Luke and cross your fingers that everything turns out alright? If Kenny sat there and did nothing/ stayed out of it Carver could have decided to just execute everyone. Do you think Kenny should have waited to find out? Again, he had no way of knowing.
Let's just face facts here, it's because of Kenny that Walter died, and determinately, Alvin, because he forced Carver's hand. This doesn't make Kenny a bad person, and ultimately, Carver is mainly to blame for doing what he did, but Kenny had a role in it, make no mistake. The fact that he didn't have prior knowledge of who Carver was doesn't change that fact. Carlos was right, there are consequences to rash actions. Consequence doesn't care who's the better person in any given situation. Good or bad, if you make the wrong call, you pay the price.
But this has nothing to do with being reckless/ rash. Obviously Kenny's actions are what caused Carver to murder Walter and Alvin, but you can't blame him for the way he chose to respond to the situation considering he had no idea what he was dealing with.
That being said, it is possible for certain characters to hog screentime. We do not see that from Kenny though. Despite what a few people ha… moreve said around these parts, he has not gotten any more screentime than any of the other members of the group
It's never been screentime that I complain about as it pertains to Kenny, but development, which Kenny is most certainly hogging up. Carver was a part of the cabin group's backstory, and yet Kenny's the one who takes him down and cuts his arc short prematurely purely for his development. Kenny is the only one who knows what to do about the pregnancy (ultimate bullshit considering what Clementine must know by now) for his development. Kenny is the one who pushes most of the drama in episode 3 because he's doing the same song and dance as season 1 (being reckless, hotheaded, not planning ahead) and is the main character that gets focused upon aside from Carver, again, despite the fact that Ca… [view original content]
Well i know he didn't have to be in season 2 but we were all still happy anyways when he first showed up. think my main problem with him is… more just because he was in season 1, that seems to be an unfair advantage with him. But that really isn't his fault. I forgave him for yelling at clem, but that doesn't make up for everything else he has done.
Man if dislikes were still around you'd be downvoted like crazy.
Pretty much this.
In season 1 if you don't side with Kenny, he leaves Lee to die and refuses to save Clementine because he doesn't like Lee, which is horrific.
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it's the same when you use larger fonts!
From season two?
Probably only his meltdown on Mike in Episode Three causing walkers to break into the compound. I can't really think of anything else that I have a problem with, as far as it being justifiable or not justifiable.
Will he?
Like, he's already stuck around for a while, I'm not sure he'll be around much longer.
Kenny´s plan in the truck was a LITTLE reckless? Are you fucking kidding me? He didn´t know what to expect at the camp´s arrival and didn´t even listen to the cabin group, who was there before and knew Carver, then he start talking shit about punching and shooting sonuvabitches as the truck opens. And no, this plan would NEVER work. So what if only Tavia, Bonnie and Troy were in front of the truck? You can see dozens of armed guards spread across the camp as they were marching to the yard. There is no excuse in this one, Kenny getting knocked out before getting in action was a god-send.
Thats actually a really good example about the lily thing EDIT: but killing someone and yelling are two different things too
I got him to apologize, but it wasn't very heartfelt. He just said it wasn't right of him to burden you with all this. Either way, I still don't care for him.
They are, but in this context they can be equated as 'a negative action'. And thank you!
Since this is a Kenny thead, I'd like to hear you guys' reactions to Kenny flipping out on Clem even if she didn't even touch Sarita. I'm a Kenny fan, by the way. This is not a question promoting Ken hate or anything. Logically, we can look at this two different ways. Let's get to it.
Option #1: Do you think it was just Kenny being Kenny? We all know Ken. Most of the time, if not always, he will attempt taking out his frustrations on someone else. He has a lot of flaws. This, however, is why some of us love him.
Option #2: Bad writing, maybe? I've seen users suggest Telltale pulled a lazy move here. Backing their arguments up with the Arvo situation. Is there any chance Telltale didn't bother changing the outcome a bit? I'm not too sure on this. I wouldn't completely rule it out, though.
So, was this Kenny being Kenny, or lazy writing? I'd like to hear what others think of this. Maybe it'll help me make up my mind.
You choose.
Overall, great post. Discerning, I should say.
What about the fact Kenny no longer cares, even the slightest, for Clementine anymore?
You see, Kenny has PTSD. Which means he connects only with people or things that remind him of people and things he cared about. Once Sarita died, Kenny took it upon himself to connect the events with Katjaa and Duck's death and decided to perpetuate Clementine as some kind of evil-doer who wronged him. Which is shitty, no matter how you cut it.
I believe the only people who can still find excuses for Kenny are either in some kind of denial or are much more forgiving than I am. But the way he "handled" Carver was... unsettling. And after episode four it's obvious that the man is a danger to the people around him. No longer a "guardian," but a "threat" to Clementine's survival.
Its a shame than fan service look over from storytelling.
You need to understand the context of the situation. In Kenny's mind, they were potentially screwed if they were taken to some lockup. He didn't want to get into that situation. He would rather take his chances in a fight than be helplessly locked away. That is why the plan was not completely reckless. (As an aside, these are Kenny's actual thoughts on the matter, not just me speculating)
And yes, the plan could have worked if everyone had followed it. Tavia, Bonnie, and Troy were standing literally at the entrance to the back of the truck with their guns lowered. They were not prepared for a group of people to jump them from out of the truck. It is certainly very possible that the group would have overpowered them, taken their weapons, gotten into the truck, and then drove away.
I have to agree with Flog61 here:
While you did bring up valid arguments, the conclusions that came from them weren't really appropriate, in my opinion. Here go some examples:
The arguments above are all valid. These ones are not:
You just mentioned the main reason that some people didn't want Kenny in this season: he's overshadowing other unexplored characters. While some DO dislike Kenny's very presence because they dislike the character himself, there are many people who don't, and with this conclusion of yours, you're simply ignoring the latter.
That was very, very exaggerated. Not even a hint of recklessness? Carver had a group of 4 people armed with assault rifles who had Kenny's own group as well as the cabin group as hostages. If starting a gun fight against Carver in this situation wasn't reckless then I don't know what is. This seems pretty logical (not to say obvious) to me.
Besides, his recklessness comes from way before all this, it started in season 1, although it is much more evident in this season.
No it isn't, we who criticize Kenny for this event (or most of us at least) DO understand why he acted they way he did. The problem was that he threw his rage and grief at Clementine, who had just been doing her best to help Sarita. Kenny mistreated a child who already was an emotional wreck just because of his selfish issues. Clem has no real protector anymore, no one she can appeal to. The last thing she needed was to have the only person from her past who is still alive be a complete asshole toward her and yell at her.
In the end Kenny will always have his issues, the guy is only human for goodness sake. People tend to forget the amount of crap the man has been put through since Season 1 to 2. I'll admit, I didn't agree with some of his actions in Season 1. He was too focused on what he thought was right for his family that he never took time to consider how other people might see it. Killing Larry is when I realised that he wasn't always the most well-minded of people. But I agreed to help for some reason because in a way he was right, if you didn't act on it he would have come back and killed everyone. But it still doesn't make it the right option.
There's a key word, "Right". Kenny does what he does to keep going because he had a family, or in season 2 he has Clementine or the baby. The man follows his own ways of doing things and yeah that does get on my nerves, because he doesn't deal with situations properly some times (The Meat Locker and Carver Shootout where the best examples of that)
But if there's anything I can commend the man for it's his heart.
Kenny has such a strong heart and it shows a lot. In Season 1 the guy would defend his kid to the death, spend time bonding with him on a swing, denying so hard that his son would end up dying, breaking down and crying when his wife and child died, and sacrificing himself to save Christa or Ben. In season 2 the guy cries and cherishes the moment he reunites with Clem, he goes and takes a full on beating from Carver so that she doesn't get beat up.
In the end Kenny's just human, he makes mistakes and has a personality that can be hard to work with, but he is a good man, maybe if it doesn't always show.
Granted but that negative action weights a bit more on Lillys side than it did with Kenny in their scenarios.
I mean Kenny isn't always the most calm minded of people and yeah he says things he shouldn't, but the guy does care for her, i mean he willingly took a beating for her in episode 3.
But in the end your right, he shouldn't have talked to her like that, but it doesn't really bother me too much, the guy has done a lot of good things for her this season that makes what he said a minor negative for me.
Thanks you.
We DO understand why he acted the way he did That does not make his actions morally correct, just as understanding Lilly's mental condition does not justify hers.
The trouble is what you said applies to nearly every single character that's been in the game, so doesn't really mean anything. All of them are 'just human', all of them 'make mistakes' and all are fundamentally good people.
Also, Nick lost his Mum, uncle and several close friends within a few weeks. Kenny isn't the only one who's lsot people, as Clem pointed out, and yet he remains one of the rudest characters. We can't justify everything abd he does by saying 'he's lost people'. Everyone's lost people.
Well look at how Clementine's character is now. I find it odd how she would give this speech about not leaving people behind, then she does it herself with Sarah. They are trying to turn her into Solid Clementine, when they don't need to.
He's lost a lot more though when you consider it.
I understand that there are some people who do not dislike Kenny's presence simply because they dislike the character himself. Their reasoning is that Kenny hogs the spotlight/ overshadows other characters and takes away development from other characters. I have already touched on this in my original post. Any character that is getting screen time is taking away potential development from other characters. It is unavoidable. Him overshadowing other characters is a subjective viewpoint, considering he doesn't get any more screen time than the other major characters in the game. Considering the viewpoint is subjective, people who tend to say that Kenny overshadows others tend to say so simply because they do not like the guy. Again, this isn't always the case, but it does happen. Which is why I said what I said.
What was exaggerated? It ultimately does not matter what Carver's group was armed with or how many people he had. It was all about not giving up. Like I said in the original post, if he simply gave up everyone could have been executed for all he knew. If he ran away everyone could have been executed for all he knew. There was no way for him to know that Carver was going to spare them.
This thread is only looking at his actions from season two, which is why I didn't touch on any of that. It really doesn't matter what he did in season one when solely looking at how his character has behaved in season two.
And the entire point of what I was saying in regards to this was in regards to forgiving him. I meant understand in the sense of forgiveness. Probably should have been more clear.
Larry and Lee's arm would agree with you.
What is that based on? The fact that he insulted her one time while being completely grief stricken? He shows more care for her than otherwise.
Because the events were 100% relevant to each other. He was simply talking about the people that he has lost..
Alright, but that really has nothing to do with PTSD. It was simple grief. He obviously lets it go as the episode moves along.
Have anything to base that on? Sounds like you just don't like the guy.
Real Issue One: Episode Length
90 minutes is not enough to give every character the screentime they need
"Have anything to base that on?"
Yes, actually. if you are hesitant on killing Rebecca, Kenny kills her without a second thought. Now, I'm not going to hold this against him. Because, given the circumstance, it was understandable. However, I will draw comparisons between that act and the "vicious" act of Clementine hacking off (or not) Sarita's arm in the walker horde. Seeing as though they were nearly identical in terms of circumstance.
Clementine hacks Sarita's arm off in the hope of preserving her life, we can agree on that, correct? Kenny kills Rebecca in order to preserve the baby's life... however, both result in very unfavorable outcomes. That shot very well resulting in many unnecessary deaths and bloodshed. Now, Belan, if you don't call that a threat of some description... I can't get through to you. He very clearly is a danger, whether intentional or otherwise, to the survival of the group.
"Sounds like you just don't like the guy."
Yep, that too. We've already had this discussion though.
Ah yes, the kenny fan resorting to gifs instead of argument. Those were the days.
They aren't identical in circumstance at all. I really don't know why you're so big into apples-oranges comparisons. You can't just look at the end result of these situations and then call the circumstances identical. That makes no sense. Did you maybe mean to say the "intentions" were the same? If so, I guess I could get behind that, though I have no clue why you're even bringing this comparison up in the first place.
Kenny is a clear danger to the group just because he decided to save a baby from getting eaten alive?
Geez Flog lighten up, it's just a gif.
Ha, me, lighten up? I'm a bitter young man with a heart of ice
You didn't address the key points.
Kenny doesn't belong in season 2 not only because he died in season 1 but because his story concluded in season 1. Kenny's story was about a man who had everything, fought to protect what was his even sometimes at the expense of others, but still lost everything. It nearly broke him, but at the very end, he reaches deep and finds more strength. He dies putting Ben out of his misery or he dies saving Christa. When Kenny had nothing left to lose, he stopped being selfish and gave more. It was a great death and showed who Kenny really was.
By resurrecting Kenny for season 2, Kenny's story was undone. Instead of being a man who redeemed himself with the ultimate sacrifice, he was a man who ran off when the rest of the group still needed him and didn't bother to look for people. Then when he came back in Season 2, his story from season 1 was repeated (starts out with a family, loses it, gets depressed, etc), but not done as well. Bringing Kenny back lessened his character and nothing new was said about him in Season 2. He's just there for nostalgia and fan service, which is sad, considering his character was better than that.
Kenny is reckless not because of the lodge but because he tried to bust out of the van and get his group killed. He also insisted that Clem take the walkie talkie, even though Clem was being watched and said it would be safer for Mike to take it. Kenny lost his eye because he backtalked Carver, not because he took responsibility for the walkie talkie. At that point Carver was still trying to play nice, but when Kenny challenged him, Carver had to beat him. Losing your eye because you can't keep your mouth shut is pretty reckless.
The gruesome killing of Carver wasn't that reckless. It was a waste of time because the zombies were coming, but really it didn't take that long.
Kenny unloaded on a young girl who is his family, blaming her for Sarita's death when Sarita was already dead once the zombie bit her. Kenny used to lash out at Lee (and Ben and Lilly, etc); now he lashes out at a little girl. There's no justification, no reason to be baffled by people who hold Kenny accountable for how he treats people, especially someone like Clem who is part of his family now. If anything, it's sick how far people bend morality to defend him. Clem is the victim of Kenny's abuse, yet people defend Kenny. If Kenny had beat Clem (just like Carver did), would people still defend him? Emotional and physical abuse are both pretty bad. Understanding why Kenny is upset is an excuse for his actions, not a justification. Also, Kenny only apologizes if Clem stands there like a doormat and takes his full attack. Does that seem right to you, letting someone walk all over you to get along with them?
As far as rushing to help with the baby, Clem did that, not Kenny. Clem let him attack her so that Rebecca could get the help she needed. Clem is the leader, the beacon of hope for the group, and she did what had to be done, even if it meant sacrificing herself. (And again, this is the same story arc as season 1, where Kenny loses everything but digs deep and gives more. Except that in Season 1 he digs deep and rallies himself, whereas in Season 2, Clem rallies him by letting him abuse her. That's a much weaker version of the story, which again is why Kenny's story was told better the first time in season 1 and he should not be in season 2.)
Meh, you can have your opinion- but i will always be #TeamKenny
Don't say that! They'll swarm you for not giving a logical thought out essay on it! Run Now!
It's never been screentime that I complain about as it pertains to Kenny, but development, which Kenny is most certainly hogging up. Carver was a part of the cabin group's backstory, and yet Kenny's the one who takes him down and cuts his arc short prematurely purely for his development. Kenny is the only one who knows what to do about the pregnancy (ultimate bullshit considering what Clementine must know by now) for his development. Kenny is the one who pushes most of the drama in episode 3 because he's doing the same song and dance as season 1 (being reckless, hotheaded, not planning ahead) and is the main character that gets focused upon aside from Carver, again, despite the fact that Carver is supposed to be tied to the cabin group, not Kenny. Kenny is going through the same damn grieving storyline as season 1 with little to nothing that differentiates it. Meanwhile, what did we know about characters like Carlos or Alvin before they bit the dust? I don't know, because episode 3 was too busy pushing Kenny to the forefront while giving those two characters, who were directly tied to Carver in episode 2, the shaft and keeping them off-screen most of the time and only a limited role when they were on-screen.
Kenny's undeservedly hogging the spotlight, plain and simple.
And shooting someone that's a part of this group of bad guys is a better idea? Doesn't it seem like that would give them ample reason to gun everyone down because of it? You're right that Kenny couldn't have known what was going on, but firing off like that while still not knowing what the hell is going on is very reckless. Let's just face facts here, it's because of Kenny that Walter died, and determinately, Alvin, because he forced Carver's hand. This doesn't make Kenny a bad person, and ultimately, Carver is mainly to blame for doing what he did, but Kenny had a role in it, make no mistake. The fact that he didn't have prior knowledge of who Carver was doesn't change that fact. Carlos was right, there are consequences to rash actions. Consequence doesn't care who's the better person in any given situation. Good or bad, if you make the wrong call, you pay the price.
Well, I tried.
Wait, is this in response to my original post? Because If it is, I am definitely all for Kenny.
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Ok..? I don't think you understand what I was doing with this thread. I was addressing several popular points that I have seen throughout the forums. Considering I chose what particular subjects to talk about, I didn't fail to address anything.
I really don't even want to address your points here as it is entirely opinion based, and nothing else.
I already addressed this...
Determinate point, most people took the walkie talkie on their own accord. Everyone was being watched, not just Clem. She was the most logical person to choose to carry out the task. She is a member of the group, and never has a problem with wanting to pull her weight. Now you want to start treating her like a helpless little kid? Clem has never been about that.
Umm... what? Kenny didn't say a single word before Carver decided to punish him. Kenny said "Heh.. fucker" because he knew he was about to be punished even though he did what Carver wanted. Kenny didn't just randomly decide to insult Carver.
I already addressed all of this. And are you really comparing blaming her for the death of Sarita to beating her to a pulp? Come on. There is a difference between venting grief and intentionally inflicting physical harm upon someone.
She helped him to cope maybe, I don't know. Nothing to prove either way really. Either way, Kenny gets over his issues and helps to deliver the baby when no one else could. Give credit where it is due.
Well i know he didn't have to be in season 2 but we were all still happy anyways when he first showed up.
think my main problem with him is just because he was in season 1, that seems to be an unfair advantage with him. But that really isn't his fault. I forgave him for yelling at clem, but that doesn't make up for everything else he has done.
Man if dislikes were still around you'd be downvoted like crazy.
You're missing the point. Kenny being there is doing nothing to prevent the writers from exploring other character's back stories. If a writer really wanted to take off and do something crazy with Carlos they could have done so. It's not impossible to do both, as we saw in season one. They simply never did it. And lets be honest, Kenny isn't really in the spotlight any more than most of the other major characters. The only exception is Episode 3, where he was kind of the lead dog.
Jane is proof that other characters can be in the spotlight and be well developed while Kenny is in the picture. Luke also continues to be developed. Bonnie and Mike as well.
And what's the alternative? Run away like Luke and cross your fingers that everything turns out alright? If Kenny sat there and did nothing/ stayed out of it Carver could have decided to just execute everyone. Do you think Kenny should have waited to find out? Again, he had no way of knowing.
But this has nothing to do with being reckless/ rash. Obviously Kenny's actions are what caused Carver to murder Walter and Alvin, but you can't blame him for the way he chose to respond to the situation considering he had no idea what he was dealing with.
Yeah... now the haters have to try responding for once
Seriously though, I have looked at these issues as rationally as possible. I don't think I'm saying anything crazy here.
Holy hell, I never realized how much kenny wants lee's backup. Luckily I sided with him. I just always thought he had the better argument.