Really? How did it imply that Clem was become manipulative or aggressive? If anything, her willingness to let the family in and her optimism… more that they might be able to make something of the hardware store suggested that Clem was becoming a benevolent leader, the exact opposite of Carver.
That makes sense, but that actually made me enjoy Jane's ending more. This is the Walking Dead universe, a central theme is whether you should risk survival by retaining your humanity, so it fit the tone quite well. It ended on a hopeful but still uncertain note, which was as good a conclusion you could expect from TWD.
Kenny's endings, meanwhile, were really only touching for people who liked Kenny...
I thought the ending where you end up in Wellington was bittersweet because while it was possibly the safest possible location in the entire Season, Christa wasn't there and it's evident that Wellington is already over-stretched.
That makes sense, but that actually made me enjoy Jane's ending more. This is the Walking Dead universe, a central theme is whether you shou… moreld risk survival by retaining your humanity, so it fit the tone quite well. It ended on a hopeful but still uncertain note, which was as good a conclusion you could expect from TWD.
Kenny's endings, meanwhile, were really only touching for people who liked Kenny...
But why would you go that far with him if you despised him to begin with? If you thought he was wrong?
"Gee, I don't think you're right,I don't wanna go to Wellington and you're trying to kill Jane,the one I agree with, but I think I'll let you kill her anyway, forgive you, and go with you."
You're being inconsistent. Whether your Clem agreed with him or not, it was the third time he was risking his life so she could be safe. First with helping Christa / staying with Ben so Lee could save her, second when he took the beating, and final and third at Wellington.
If Clem weren't phased in the least by a person's constant sacrifice for her safety, she would have been the one behaving unrealistically and out of character.
She also cried when Kenny told her to stay at Wellington and leave him. I don't see much reason for Clem, psychopath or not, to cry in that … moresituation .It's so transparently obvious the writing was specifically tailored to people who sympathized with Kenny, and no one else.
Well, I'm not really much of a Kenny hater nor am I a lover, but I did kind of like Kenny in episode 5, even though his mental breakdown at the end scared the shit out of me. I mostly liked Kenny as an interesting tragic character. not that I liked him personally, in my view, he shouldn't even have been in season 2, it sure had potential, but Telltale weren't doing much with his character, episode 5 has some good things in it that I really appreciated, but I don't think it really saved the season, but it was still enjoyable.
That makes sense, but that actually made me enjoy Jane's ending more. This is the Walking Dead universe, a central theme is whether you shou… moreld risk survival by retaining your humanity, so it fit the tone quite well. It ended on a hopeful but still uncertain note, which was as good a conclusion you could expect from TWD.
Kenny's endings, meanwhile, were really only touching for people who liked Kenny...
Why would she go to Wellington? One word: Christa. Not inconsistent if you ask me, since Clem was determined to reunite with her.
And how exactly was Kenny staying behind for Ben helping Clem? He elected to stay in an infest ally for no good reason at all instead of just shooting Ben and going with Lee to help save Clem.
Christa sacrificed plenty for Clem, but there were no tears of despair when she was separated from her. Luke saved Clem multiple times and risked life and limb trying to rescue her from Carver's camp, but there were no tears for Luke. If anything, crying when saying goodbye to Kenny was out of character.
The fact that Clem doesn't shed a single tear for Omid, the man she clearly liked and survived with for months, showed just how much the writers were forcing the Kenny/Clem angle.
Besides, Kenny leaving Clem and AJ at Wellington wasn't much of a "sacrifice". The last Clem saw of Kenny, he was stable and healthy and well supplied. Why would she consider it a "sacrifice", at least to the point that she'd cry in appreciation?
But why would you go that far with him if you despised him to begin with? If you thought he was wrong?
"Gee, I don't think you're right,I… more don't wanna go to Wellington and you're trying to kill Jane,the one I agree with, but I think I'll let you kill her anyway, forgive you, and go with you."
You're being inconsistent. Whether your Clem agreed with him or not, it was the third time he was risking his life so she could be safe. First with helping Christa / staying with Ben so Lee could save her, second when he took the beating, and final and third at Wellington.
If Clem weren't phased in the least by a person's constant sacrifice for her safety, she would have been the one behaving unrealistically and out of character.
You mean the woman who goes. "Hey, I'm going to hide a Baby and lie about it to the man fighting to keep him alive because i am trying to make him snap because I don't trust him."
She set Kenny up to force Clem into making a life or death choice. Me...I let her die. Why...because Jane was trying to brainwash me. She wanted Kenny to snap, she wanted to either kill him because he was pissed that she let a baby got killed....she died over a lie because she was being self righteous. THAT...and Kenny was right. And if you make it there with Kenny, his true colors shine on through again and he even confesses he's not sure of himself but once again, the chips are down and Kenny folds to save lives at his expense. And while i think Jane will likely do the same in her play through...I can't forgive her for that goddamned trap. If Kenny was a bomb like she said she was, she lit him...and he explodes. She made that situation....and I don't feel bad for her.
Well, he got Clem to Wellington, and with that gave her the chance to see whether Christa made it or not. And then he makes Clem and the baby stay there for their own safety. Now that you mentioned that wanting to meet Christa was your Clem's objective, that just makes it a double favor that he's done for your Clem. What an asshole , right?
Also, you don't know for sure whether Clem cried when Omid died. It cuts really briefly, who's to say she didn't start crying when Christa went to confront her about it, or when they had to shoot him to keep him from reanimating? She just looked in shock to me, and she was sobbing, at that moment. It seemed Telltale also just got lazy and didn't want to make teary-eyed models for that scene for some reason, because if you look at Christa, there are no tears on her face either.
She does cry when she realizes she really is all alone and Christa isn't there for her, shortly before Luke saves her. She just sits there on the ground and starts crying. I interpreted that as her crying over finally realizing she had been completely separated from her. She does have a chance to tell Luke how she's all alone and she just lost her friend Christa when the scavengers attacked, as one of the first dialogue options when he saves her.
About Ben, he thought he could save him. His last line was "I either save that kid, or get to see Katjaa and Duck again. Now go get that girl, Lee!". I don't think he was sure he couldn't have saved him at that moment.
Why would she go to Wellington? One word: Christa. Not inconsistent if you ask me, since Clem was determined to reunite with her.
And how… more exactly was Kenny staying behind for Ben helping Clem? He elected to stay in an infest ally for no good reason at all instead of just shooting Ben and going with Lee to help save Clem.
Christa sacrificed plenty for Clem, but there were no tears of despair when she was separated from her. Luke saved Clem multiple times and risked life and limb trying to rescue her from Carver's camp, but there were no tears for Luke. If anything, crying when saying goodbye to Kenny was out of character.
The fact that Clem doesn't shed a single tear for Omid, the man she clearly liked and survived with for months, showed just how much the writers were forcing the Kenny/Clem angle.
Besides, Kenny leaving Clem and AJ at Wellington wasn't much of a "sacrifice". The last Clem saw of Kenny, he was stable and healthy an… [view original content]
I don't want to make an excuse mostly because I don't want to seem I'm a Kenny fan.
But I kind of think of it like this after Omid's death and losing Christa she's been on her own having to patch herself up and then Pete dies and they are escaping from a crazy Carver once Clem see's Kenny it's almost unbelievable (believing he was dead since Christa told her).
Kenny has done a lot just to keep Clem safe it's just upsetting that he has a short fuse but in Ep5 I blame Jane because she kept going on and on for no reason except to prove a point which I already knew.
I don't condone Kenny's actions and he does apologize to Clem sometimes he doesn't mean to do something I believe after all the stuff Kenny did protecting Clem and helping Lee makes him more of a good person but I didn't leave with him because I knew Kenny would kill Clem one day after he killed Jane (even though she lied -_-) I wasn't going to stay with him.
But I never said Kenny was an asshole for taking Clem to Wellington. I greatly appreciated how selfless he was in that ending. My problem was how forced Clem’s relationship with Kenny was, in that scene and the rest of the season. Btw, I didn't actually go to Wellington, I was just discussing the scene in which Clem does go :P
And I suppose TT could’ve been too lazy to make crying models, but you can clearly hear Christa sobbing, and you can only hear Clem whimpering. The point is, TT made a conscious decision not to show Clem crying over Omid, but they did decide to show her crying over Kenny. It’s painfully obvious that TT wanted players to sympathize with Kenny no matter what, and my problem is that that shouldn’t be the case in a choice driven game. TT knows Kenny is one of the most divisive characters in the season, yet they keep showing him blatant favoritism. There is no path that doesn’t paint Kenny in an unsympathetic light. Contrast with Nick or Sarah or Bonnie, with whom you're given a choice to sympathize with or not.
And I brought up Ben because you mentioned Kenny trying to save him was a “sacrifice” for Clem, when it really wasn’t. It was a sacrifice for Ben, sure, but it did nothing to help Clem.
Well, he got Clem to Wellington, and with that gave her the chance to see whether Christa made it or not. And then he makes Clem and the bab… morey stay there for their own safety. Now that you mentioned that wanting to meet Christa was your Clem's objective, that just makes it a double favor that he's done for your Clem. What an asshole , right?
Also, you don't know for sure whether Clem cried when Omid died. It cuts really briefly, who's to say she didn't start crying when Christa went to confront her about it, or when they had to shoot him to keep him from reanimating? She just looked in shock to me, and she was sobbing, at that moment. It seemed Telltale also just got lazy and didn't want to make teary-eyed models for that scene for some reason, because if you look at Christa, there are no tears on her face either.
She does cry when she realizes she really is all alone and Christa isn't there for her, shortly before Luke saves her. She ju… [view original content]
You mean the woman who goes. "Hey, I'm going to hide a Baby and lie about it to the man fighting to keep him alive because i am trying to m… moreake him snap because I don't trust him."
She set Kenny up to force Clem into making a life or death choice. Me...I let her die. Why...because Jane was trying to brainwash me. She wanted Kenny to snap, she wanted to either kill him because he was pissed that she let a baby got killed....she died over a lie because she was being self righteous. THAT...and Kenny was right. And if you make it there with Kenny, his true colors shine on through again and he even confesses he's not sure of himself but once again, the chips are down and Kenny folds to save lives at his expense. And while i think Jane will likely do the same in her play through...I can't forgive her for that goddamned trap. If Kenny was a bomb like she said she was, she lit him...and he explodes. She made that situation....and I don't feel bad for her.
The worst thing is that Jane only went so far with the AJ stunt because up until then, Clem was barely acknowledging her point that Kenny wasn't the best guardian. The player is only given options like "You're wrong, Kenny's fine", or half-hearted "You might be right... but probably not". If TT had simply given Clem the option to outright agree with Jane since, as you said, most players already knew what Jane's point was, Jane wouldn't have had to do something so drastic. Forced drama, in other words.
I don't want to make an excuse mostly because I don't want to seem I'm a Kenny fan.
But I kind of think of it like this after Omid's death … moreand losing Christa she's been on her own having to patch herself up and then Pete dies and they are escaping from a crazy Carver once Clem see's Kenny it's almost unbelievable (believing he was dead since Christa told her).
Kenny has done a lot just to keep Clem safe it's just upsetting that he has a short fuse but in Ep5 I blame Jane because she kept going on and on for no reason except to prove a point which I already knew.
I don't condone Kenny's actions and he does apologize to Clem sometimes he doesn't mean to do something I believe after all the stuff Kenny did protecting Clem and helping Lee makes him more of a good person but I didn't leave with him because I knew Kenny would kill Clem one day after he killed Jane (even though she lied -_-) I wasn't going to stay with him.
Well, I'll agree to disagree. There's nothing forced about Clem being moved over what Kenny did for her at Wellington.even if she was never close to him. Hell, if I were in that situation, I'd be moved if a complete stranger did the same thing for me, and I'm not a 11 year old kid.
And how is shooting and killing him being forced to sympathize with him? It's your choice to sympathize or agree with Jane that he was a crazy man.
About the Ben scenario...
Season 1 Clem would have been happy that he stayed there with her friend to try to save him.
But I never said Kenny was an asshole for taking Clem to Wellington. I greatly appreciated how selfless he was in that ending. My problem wa… mores how forced Clem’s relationship with Kenny was, in that scene and the rest of the season. Btw, I didn't actually go to Wellington, I was just discussing the scene in which Clem does go :P
And I suppose TT could’ve been too lazy to make crying models, but you can clearly hear Christa sobbing, and you can only hear Clem whimpering. The point is, TT made a conscious decision not to show Clem crying over Omid, but they did decide to show her crying over Kenny. It’s painfully obvious that TT wanted players to sympathize with Kenny no matter what, and my problem is that that shouldn’t be the case in a choice driven game. TT knows Kenny is one of the most divisive characters in the season, yet they keep showing him blatant favoritism. There is no path that doesn’t paint Kenny in an unsympathetic light. Cont… [view original content]
I'll just copy paste this:
This isn't like with Clem and Lee in Season 1, where almost the entire fanbase unanimously loved their relatio… morenship. Was Telltale seriously completely blind to just how divisive a character Kenny was, and how the Clem/Kenny dynamic was nowhere near as universally loved? They alienated a good percentage of the players by deciding to cater only to the Kenny fans. You had the option to either be friends with Sarah or treat her like crap. You had the option to support Nick, or let Walter kill him. You had the option to forgive Bonnie, or never let her hear the end of it and even let her die in the lake. No such variability for Kenny, huh?
Besides, the Lee/Clem relationship was handled and developed much better than Kenny/Clem, because the latter depended entirely on the assumption that Clem actually liked Kenny in Season 1, which we were not shown at all, regardless of whether that was true or not. We saw Lee and Clem's bond grow and develop. Not the case with Kenny.
Actually, the Episode seemed to be trying very obviously to get Clementine (and the players) to like Kenny in the long run.
Oh no, he's beating up Arvo! Oh wait, Arvo shot Clem, so Kenny was right to beat the shit out of him! Sorry for doubting you Ken-meister!
Wow, Jane, Bonnie and Mike are making some compelling arguments for why we shouldn't stick with Kenny. Oh wait, Bonnie and Mike are suddenly traitors and Jane pretended to kill a baby. So sorry for doubting you Kenneth! You're the man!
Oh god, I shot Kenny! Let's give him this super heart-wrenching and emotional death, and then immediately shit on Jane's character afterwards with the revelation that she lied about AJ! Oh, why did I choose to shoot Kenny!? He was right all along!
We've reached Wellington with Kenny! And he's sacrificing his spot in the community for Clem and AJ's safety. Oh thank you so much Kenny, clearly sticking with you was the best possible choice evar!
You're missing the point. No matter what you do, Kenny is always painted in a sympathetic light, despite the fact that he's a very divisive character. No matter what you do or what choices you make, Clem is forced to be broken up during his death/departure.
Beating the living shit out of Arvo for next to no reason(possibly twice, depending on how your playthrough went), is certainly not very sympathetic. You can also voice dislike towards Kenny, even openly to him, if you like. The relationship is NOT forced, he's just a big character. Whether you want your relationship with him to be mostly positive or mostly negative is up to you.
You're missing the point. No matter what you do, Kenny is always painted in a sympathetic light, despite the fact that he's a very divisive … morecharacter. No matter what you do or what choices you make, Clem is forced to be broken up during his death/departure.
Once while Kenny is trying to stab Jane and once right after he kills her, as you said. Then, while I'm not completely sure about this, I think you get an option to shoot him on some dialogue path at the car when you find AJ.
No more stupid than any other group Clem was with. At least this one had someone with survival experience with them, and no cripplingly usel… moreess or stupid members (Duck, Ben, Sarah, etc)
They also removed the dislike button so people would actually discuss their opinions instead of spamming dislike the second they saw something they didn't agree with.
I would be moved too, but not to the point that I'd cry. Especially since (as far as we know) Clem didn't cry over Omid's death. Clem didn't cry over Alvin's sacrifice (though she was close). Clem didn't cry over Pete's sacrifice. I found it completely unbelievable that a little girl who could get through such hardships without shedding a tear would sob over saying goodbye to someone she may not have even liked.
It's forcing to sympathize because if you shoot Kenny, you only get options like "I didn't want to do this", or "you'll be in a better place". Kenny even apologizes for what he did, just to make absolutely sure players would feel guilty about killing him. Even if you agree with Jane, the game paints the decision like "I feel so bad for Kenny, and that he became nuts. I wish I could've done something for him..."
Whether your Clem agreed with him or not, it was the third time he was risking his life so she could be safe. First with helping Christa / staying with Ben so Lee could save her
I was responding to this regarding Ben. No, Kenny trying to help Ben didn't make Clem safe in any way.
Well, I'll agree to disagree. There's nothing forced about Clem being moved over what Kenny did for her at Wellington.even if she was never … moreclose to him. Hell, if I were in that situation, I'd be moved if a complete stranger did the same thing for me, and I'm not a 11 year old kid.
And how is shooting and killing him being forced to sympathize with him? It's your choice to sympathize or agree with Jane that he was a crazy man.
About the Ben scenario...
Season 1 Clem would have been happy that he stayed there with her friend to try to save him.
No, it showed she cared only for herself. Kenny cared about Clem, but that moment wasn't about Clem. That moment was about AJ. People are allowed to have this thing called concern. it's the dang thing everyone complained about when Sarah die din front of ev...wait...no...a baby was born, looked like it might have been dead but wasn't, and thus they all had a bittersweet moment of celebration.
Kenny cared for the kids right up until the end, and it seems that's the case no matter what.
Jane was selfish and it got her killed. At no time did she ever stop fighting Kenny. She's trying to kill him because of her lie. Yes self defense...but the girl set the man off with a lie. If it was true then yes, I'd have sided with her but what she said before he came in...I knew it was a set up.
So no, screw the crazy bitch trying to set off Kenny. She's the real psycho.
Not anymore during Episode 5. Luke, Jane, Bonnie and Mike would've been an ideal group for Clem. And sure, people who aren't useless or stupid might bring the group down, but those four were nowhere near as huge a threat or liability as past members in the group like the aforementioned kids (I like them all, but they were still liabilities), or Larry or Kenny or Nick.
Actually, the Episode seemed to be trying very obviously to get Clementine (and the players) to like Kenny in the long run.
Oh no, he's beating up Arvo! Oh wait, Arvo shot Clem, so Kenny was right to beat the shit out of him! Sorry for doubting you Ken-meister!
Wow, Jane, Bonnie and Mike are making some compelling arguments for why we shouldn't stick with Kenny. Oh wait, Bonnie and Mike are suddenly traitors and Jane pretended to kill a baby. So sorry for doubting you Kenneth! You're the man!
Oh god, I shot Kenny! Let's give him this super heart-wrenching and emotional death, and then immediately shit on Jane's character afterwards with the revelation that she lied about AJ! Oh, why did I choose to shoot Kenny!? He was right all along!
We've reached Wellington with Kenny! And he's sacrificing his spot in the community for Clem and AJ's safety. Oh thank you so much Kenny, clearly sticking with you was the best possible choice evar!
And yes, there are options to voice negativity towards Kenny, but in the long run, they do little to harm his sympathetic image. You don't even get an option to ever outright agree with Jane. You only get choices like "Kenny's fine", or "You might be right about him... but I'm not sure". Even telling Kenny he hurt Clem by ranting at her in Parker's Run ends with Clem indeterminately forgiving Kenny.
Beating the living shit out of Arvo for next to no reason(possibly twice, depending on how your playthrough went), is certainly not very sym… morepathetic. You can also voice dislike towards Kenny, even openly to him, if you like. The relationship is NOT forced, he's just a big character. Whether you want your relationship with him to be mostly positive or mostly negative is up to you.
Good argument. Can you at least try to understand why some players don't like how Kenny was written this season? I understand that it must've been great for people who liked Kenny, since the writing catered specifically to Kenny fans, good for you guys, but is it that hard to understand that people have valid reasons to criticise how he was handled? I imagine you wouldn't have liked this season nearly as much if you were forced to sympathize with Lilly/Jane no matter what you did. I should point out that I don't even hold it against Kenny that TT handled him so poorly. His character was fine, but the writers did a shit job with him this season.
Anyways, I'm not even a Lilly or Jane fan. Nick and Sarah ftw!
Up to that point, they seemed pretty well-off and able to me. The only thing they really needed Clem to do was turn on a PA system. The only person out of those four I see as being a liability afterward is Luke and Jane. Who knows, they might have left behind a bag of supplies if Arvo hadn't shot Clem. After that, it was pretty much run or face the wrath of Kenny.
Not anymore during Episode 5. Luke, Jane, Bonnie and Mike would've been an ideal group for Clem. And sure, people who aren't useless or stup… moreid might bring the group down, but those four were nowhere near as huge a threat or liability as past members in the group like the aforementioned kids (I like them all, but they were still liabilities), or Larry or Kenny or Nick.
That's true. I liked Kenny, though he has been an asshole sometimes. But an option to bond with other characters that you sympathize with would be really nice.
That's true. I liked Kenny, though he has been an asshole sometimes. But an option to bond with other characters that you sympathize with would be really nice.
Kenny's treatment of Arvo and the other survivors' reactions to it were the turning point for me, and while I was excited to see that Telltale made him devolve into the kind of madman that Carver had become it disappointed me that they didn't commit to taking it all the way. No matter what you do, Kenny redeems himself and you're forced to see him as a sympathetic hero - even if it blatantly contradicts his prior behavior.
For example, why would Kenny be so calm and peaceful about being shot by Clem when he still had no reason to believe he'd done anything wrong? Why would he ask for you to put him down if he kills Jane, when he'd have much more motivation to revel in her death than he did with Larry or Arvo?
It's annoying to me because I just don't have the connection to him that I had with Lee, and I refuse to believe that Clem bonded with him more than she would have to many other characters - Christa, Luke or Sarah - who were far more reliable and less frightening. And it was very predictable of him to have a dignified, peaceful, guilt-free death while many other sympathetic characters get deaths that were handled far worse. Why is it that Clementine has to cry over him when her reaction to Sarah, or Pete, or Alvin, or Luke, or Rebecca, or virtually any other character this season is so subdued?
The only silver lining is that Kenny's determinant status means he'll die off-screen.
The worst thing is that Jane only went so far with the AJ stunt because up until then, Clem was barely acknowledging her point that Kenny wa… moresn't the best guardian. The player is only given options like "You're wrong, Kenny's fine", or half-hearted "You might be right... but probably not". If TT had simply given Clem the option to outright agree with Jane since, as you said, most players already knew what Jane's point was, Jane wouldn't have had to do something so drastic. Forced drama, in other words.
Kenny's treatment of Arvo and the other survivors' reactions to it were the turning point for me, and while I was excited to see that Tellta… morele made him devolve into the kind of madman that Carver had become it disappointed me that they didn't commit to taking it all the way. No matter what you do, Kenny redeems himself and you're forced to see him as a sympathetic hero - even if it blatantly contradicts his prior behavior.
For example, why would Kenny be so calm and peaceful about being shot by Clem when he still had no reason to believe he'd done anything wrong? Why would he ask for you to put him down if he kills Jane, when he'd have much more motivation to revel in her death than he did with Larry or Arvo?
It's annoying to me because I just don't have the connection to him that I had with Lee, and I refuse to believe that Clem bonded with him more than she would have to many other characters - Christa, Luke or Sarah - who were far … [view original content]
Thing is, her relationship with Lee was actually well developed, and most importantly, Clem and Lee were universally loved. Clem liking Lee no matter what can be excused because almost everyone liked her anyways and the player isn't given options to outright hate her.
Kenny was not so unanimously liked, and yet Telltale wrote Season Two under the assumption that everyone liked him, which alienated a much larger portion of the fanbase than the Clem haters.
While I agree that Jane seems to have her own problems and possibly agenda, I don't think she's trying to brainwash you. I think she legitimately cares about you and your well-being so she's trying to shed light on the fact that sometimes you may have to leave a group and you may be alone.
What she did, the setup/trap at the rest stop, was completely dumb, I agree. Jane let you know it was a setup. She told Kenny it was an accident and he just went off. In my playthrough I tried multiple times to break up the fights (both in the car and at the rest stop). The fact is that Kenny was insanely reckless with trying to avenge a baby's death when he had NO IDEA what happened. He was even violent towards Clementine during that fight which ultimately made me side with Jane. I don't agree with her plan but it was true, Kenny can't protect us and he's too unstable.
It was hard deciding whether to shoot Kenny or [Look Away]. I had to shoot Kenny because even though Jane was setting him up, there was ZERO excuse to kill Jane over what she had implied was an accident. I don't see how killing her would have made any situation better.
I'm sad I didn't see the Wellington scene where Kenny begged for Clementine to stay, but I am still clinging on to the ideals of Lee. Doing what I think is right and being a kind and ultimately caring person. I went back to the camp Carver had. When approached by the family I could tell they were trying to turn Clementine into the same type of person Jane was. I don't want Clementine to grow up bitter and hateful or unwilling to help people in times of need. I allowed the family to come in even though we didn't have a lot of food. I still want to give people the benefit of the doubt because I believe it's what Lee would have done.
You mean the woman who goes. "Hey, I'm going to hide a Baby and lie about it to the man fighting to keep him alive because i am trying to m… moreake him snap because I don't trust him."
She set Kenny up to force Clem into making a life or death choice. Me...I let her die. Why...because Jane was trying to brainwash me. She wanted Kenny to snap, she wanted to either kill him because he was pissed that she let a baby got killed....she died over a lie because she was being self righteous. THAT...and Kenny was right. And if you make it there with Kenny, his true colors shine on through again and he even confesses he's not sure of himself but once again, the chips are down and Kenny folds to save lives at his expense. And while i think Jane will likely do the same in her play through...I can't forgive her for that goddamned trap. If Kenny was a bomb like she said she was, she lit him...and he explodes. She made that situation....and I don't feel bad for her.
I think the point is that it's unfair how the writing was so clearly pushing for players to sympathize with Kenny no matter what. It doesn't… more matter what you thought of him, it doesn't matter if your Clem didn't like him. The game forces Clem to sob over his death even though she didn't shed a tear over Omid's death.
Comments
I suppose, but that could have just been the wrong choice and might bite clem in the ass, I just find Kenny's ending to be touching and more climatic.
That makes sense, but that actually made me enjoy Jane's ending more. This is the Walking Dead universe, a central theme is whether you should risk survival by retaining your humanity, so it fit the tone quite well. It ended on a hopeful but still uncertain note, which was as good a conclusion you could expect from TWD.
Kenny's endings, meanwhile, were really only touching for people who liked Kenny...
I thought the ending where you end up in Wellington was bittersweet because while it was possibly the safest possible location in the entire Season, Christa wasn't there and it's evident that Wellington is already over-stretched.
But why would you go that far with him if you despised him to begin with? If you thought he was wrong?
"Gee, I don't think you're right,I don't wanna go to Wellington and you're trying to kill Jane,the one I agree with, but I think I'll let you kill her anyway, forgive you, and go with you."
You're being inconsistent. Whether your Clem agreed with him or not, it was the third time he was risking his life so she could be safe. First with helping Christa / staying with Ben so Lee could save her, second when he took the beating, and final and third at Wellington.
If Clem weren't phased in the least by a person's constant sacrifice for her safety, she would have been the one behaving unrealistically and out of character.
Oh ok, I was just referring to the ending where you take them in.
Well, I'm not really much of a Kenny hater nor am I a lover, but I did kind of like Kenny in episode 5, even though his mental breakdown at the end scared the shit out of me. I mostly liked Kenny as an interesting tragic character. not that I liked him personally, in my view, he shouldn't even have been in season 2, it sure had potential, but Telltale weren't doing much with his character, episode 5 has some good things in it that I really appreciated, but I don't think it really saved the season, but it was still enjoyable.
Why would she go to Wellington? One word: Christa. Not inconsistent if you ask me, since Clem was determined to reunite with her.
And how exactly was Kenny staying behind for Ben helping Clem? He elected to stay in an infest ally for no good reason at all instead of just shooting Ben and going with Lee to help save Clem.
Christa sacrificed plenty for Clem, but there were no tears of despair when she was separated from her. Luke saved Clem multiple times and risked life and limb trying to rescue her from Carver's camp, but there were no tears for Luke. If anything, crying when saying goodbye to Kenny was out of character.
The fact that Clem doesn't shed a single tear for Omid, the man she clearly liked and survived with for months, showed just how much the writers were forcing the Kenny/Clem angle.
Besides, Kenny leaving Clem and AJ at Wellington wasn't much of a "sacrifice". The last Clem saw of Kenny, he was stable and healthy and well supplied. Why would she consider it a "sacrifice", at least to the point that she'd cry in appreciation?
You mean the woman who goes. "Hey, I'm going to hide a Baby and lie about it to the man fighting to keep him alive because i am trying to make him snap because I don't trust him."
She set Kenny up to force Clem into making a life or death choice. Me...I let her die. Why...because Jane was trying to brainwash me. She wanted Kenny to snap, she wanted to either kill him because he was pissed that she let a baby got killed....she died over a lie because she was being self righteous. THAT...and Kenny was right. And if you make it there with Kenny, his true colors shine on through again and he even confesses he's not sure of himself but once again, the chips are down and Kenny folds to save lives at his expense. And while i think Jane will likely do the same in her play through...I can't forgive her for that goddamned trap. If Kenny was a bomb like she said she was, she lit him...and he explodes. She made that situation....and I don't feel bad for her.
Well, he got Clem to Wellington, and with that gave her the chance to see whether Christa made it or not. And then he makes Clem and the baby stay there for their own safety. Now that you mentioned that wanting to meet Christa was your Clem's objective, that just makes it a double favor that he's done for your Clem. What an asshole , right?
Also, you don't know for sure whether Clem cried when Omid died. It cuts really briefly, who's to say she didn't start crying when Christa went to confront her about it, or when they had to shoot him to keep him from reanimating? She just looked in shock to me, and she was sobbing, at that moment. It seemed Telltale also just got lazy and didn't want to make teary-eyed models for that scene for some reason, because if you look at Christa, there are no tears on her face either.
She does cry when she realizes she really is all alone and Christa isn't there for her, shortly before Luke saves her. She just sits there on the ground and starts crying. I interpreted that as her crying over finally realizing she had been completely separated from her. She does have a chance to tell Luke how she's all alone and she just lost her friend Christa when the scavengers attacked, as one of the first dialogue options when he saves her.
About Ben, he thought he could save him. His last line was "I either save that kid, or get to see Katjaa and Duck again. Now go get that girl, Lee!". I don't think he was sure he couldn't have saved him at that moment.
I don't want to make an excuse mostly because I don't want to seem I'm a Kenny fan.
But I kind of think of it like this after Omid's death and losing Christa she's been on her own having to patch herself up and then Pete dies and they are escaping from a crazy Carver once Clem see's Kenny it's almost unbelievable (believing he was dead since Christa told her).
Kenny has done a lot just to keep Clem safe it's just upsetting that he has a short fuse but in Ep5 I blame Jane because she kept going on and on for no reason except to prove a point which I already knew.
I don't condone Kenny's actions and he does apologize to Clem sometimes he doesn't mean to do something I believe after all the stuff Kenny did protecting Clem and helping Lee makes him more of a good person but I didn't leave with him because I knew Kenny would kill Clem one day after he killed Jane (even though she lied -_-) I wasn't going to stay with him.
But I never said Kenny was an asshole for taking Clem to Wellington. I greatly appreciated how selfless he was in that ending. My problem was how forced Clem’s relationship with Kenny was, in that scene and the rest of the season. Btw, I didn't actually go to Wellington, I was just discussing the scene in which Clem does go :P
And I suppose TT could’ve been too lazy to make crying models, but you can clearly hear Christa sobbing, and you can only hear Clem whimpering. The point is, TT made a conscious decision not to show Clem crying over Omid, but they did decide to show her crying over Kenny. It’s painfully obvious that TT wanted players to sympathize with Kenny no matter what, and my problem is that that shouldn’t be the case in a choice driven game. TT knows Kenny is one of the most divisive characters in the season, yet they keep showing him blatant favoritism. There is no path that doesn’t paint Kenny in an unsympathetic light. Contrast with Nick or Sarah or Bonnie, with whom you're given a choice to sympathize with or not.
And I brought up Ben because you mentioned Kenny trying to save him was a “sacrifice” for Clem, when it really wasn’t. It was a sacrifice for Ben, sure, but it did nothing to help Clem.
Well it worked. Showed Kenny only cared about that kid. Kenny needed to go..
A LONG TIME AGO
The worst thing is that Jane only went so far with the AJ stunt because up until then, Clem was barely acknowledging her point that Kenny wasn't the best guardian. The player is only given options like "You're wrong, Kenny's fine", or half-hearted "You might be right... but probably not". If TT had simply given Clem the option to outright agree with Jane since, as you said, most players already knew what Jane's point was, Jane wouldn't have had to do something so drastic. Forced drama, in other words.
The Episode seemed to try and get Clementine to dislike Kenny but Season 1 is the main reason most people in Season 2 actually like him I think.
Considering you get the option to shoot Kenny....3 times in 1 episode....I don't think the relationship was forced. Lol.
Well, I'll agree to disagree. There's nothing forced about Clem being moved over what Kenny did for her at Wellington.even if she was never close to him. Hell, if I were in that situation, I'd be moved if a complete stranger did the same thing for me, and I'm not a 11 year old kid.
And how is shooting and killing him being forced to sympathize with him? It's your choice to sympathize or agree with Jane that he was a crazy man.
About the Ben scenario...
Season 1 Clem would have been happy that he stayed there with her friend to try to save him.
You can be an absolute piece of shit to Clem in Season 1 and she'll still love Lee
Actually, the Episode seemed to be trying very obviously to get Clementine (and the players) to like Kenny in the long run.
Oh no, he's beating up Arvo! Oh wait, Arvo shot Clem, so Kenny was right to beat the shit out of him! Sorry for doubting you Ken-meister!
Wow, Jane, Bonnie and Mike are making some compelling arguments for why we shouldn't stick with Kenny. Oh wait, Bonnie and Mike are suddenly traitors and Jane pretended to kill a baby. So sorry for doubting you Kenneth! You're the man!
Oh god, I shot Kenny! Let's give him this super heart-wrenching and emotional death, and then immediately shit on Jane's character afterwards with the revelation that she lied about AJ! Oh, why did I choose to shoot Kenny!? He was right all along!
We've reached Wellington with Kenny! And he's sacrificing his spot in the community for Clem and AJ's safety. Oh thank you so much Kenny, clearly sticking with you was the best possible choice evar!
Well you got 2 options to shoot him twice, what was the third option? I know you can shoot Kenny before and after killing Jane.
You're missing the point. No matter what you do, Kenny is always painted in a sympathetic light, despite the fact that he's a very divisive character. No matter what you do or what choices you make, Clem is forced to be broken up during his death/departure.
Beating the living shit out of Arvo for next to no reason(possibly twice, depending on how your playthrough went), is certainly not very sympathetic. You can also voice dislike towards Kenny, even openly to him, if you like. The relationship is NOT forced, he's just a big character. Whether you want your relationship with him to be mostly positive or mostly negative is up to you.
Once while Kenny is trying to stab Jane and once right after he kills her, as you said. Then, while I'm not completely sure about this, I think you get an option to shoot him on some dialogue path at the car when you find AJ.
If I recall, Sarah was part of that group. And maybe a member doesn't have to be useless or stupid to bring their group down.
I would be moved too, but not to the point that I'd cry. Especially since (as far as we know) Clem didn't cry over Omid's death. Clem didn't cry over Alvin's sacrifice (though she was close). Clem didn't cry over Pete's sacrifice. I found it completely unbelievable that a little girl who could get through such hardships without shedding a tear would sob over saying goodbye to someone she may not have even liked.
It's forcing to sympathize because if you shoot Kenny, you only get options like "I didn't want to do this", or "you'll be in a better place". Kenny even apologizes for what he did, just to make absolutely sure players would feel guilty about killing him. Even if you agree with Jane, the game paints the decision like "I feel so bad for Kenny, and that he became nuts. I wish I could've done something for him..."
Whether your Clem agreed with him or not, it was the third time he was risking his life so she could be safe. First with helping Christa / staying with Ben so Lee could save her
I was responding to this regarding Ben. No, Kenny trying to help Ben didn't make Clem safe in any way.
No, it showed she cared only for herself. Kenny cared about Clem, but that moment wasn't about Clem. That moment was about AJ. People are allowed to have this thing called concern. it's the dang thing everyone complained about when Sarah die din front of ev...wait...no...a baby was born, looked like it might have been dead but wasn't, and thus they all had a bittersweet moment of celebration.
Kenny cared for the kids right up until the end, and it seems that's the case no matter what.
Jane was selfish and it got her killed. At no time did she ever stop fighting Kenny. She's trying to kill him because of her lie. Yes self defense...but the girl set the man off with a lie. If it was true then yes, I'd have sided with her but what she said before he came in...I knew it was a set up.
So no, screw the crazy bitch trying to set off Kenny. She's the real psycho.
Not anymore during Episode 5. Luke, Jane, Bonnie and Mike would've been an ideal group for Clem. And sure, people who aren't useless or stupid might bring the group down, but those four were nowhere near as huge a threat or liability as past members in the group like the aforementioned kids (I like them all, but they were still liabilities), or Larry or Kenny or Nick.
Lilly/Jane fans in denial
Copy paste time.
Actually, the Episode seemed to be trying very obviously to get Clementine (and the players) to like Kenny in the long run.
Oh no, he's beating up Arvo! Oh wait, Arvo shot Clem, so Kenny was right to beat the shit out of him! Sorry for doubting you Ken-meister!
Wow, Jane, Bonnie and Mike are making some compelling arguments for why we shouldn't stick with Kenny. Oh wait, Bonnie and Mike are suddenly traitors and Jane pretended to kill a baby. So sorry for doubting you Kenneth! You're the man!
Oh god, I shot Kenny! Let's give him this super heart-wrenching and emotional death, and then immediately shit on Jane's character afterwards with the revelation that she lied about AJ! Oh, why did I choose to shoot Kenny!? He was right all along!
We've reached Wellington with Kenny! And he's sacrificing his spot in the community for Clem and AJ's safety. Oh thank you so much Kenny, clearly sticking with you was the best possible choice evar!
And yes, there are options to voice negativity towards Kenny, but in the long run, they do little to harm his sympathetic image. You don't even get an option to ever outright agree with Jane. You only get choices like "Kenny's fine", or "You might be right about him... but I'm not sure". Even telling Kenny he hurt Clem by ranting at her in Parker's Run ends with Clem indeterminately forgiving Kenny.
Good argument. Can you at least try to understand why some players don't like how Kenny was written this season? I understand that it must've been great for people who liked Kenny, since the writing catered specifically to Kenny fans, good for you guys, but is it that hard to understand that people have valid reasons to criticise how he was handled? I imagine you wouldn't have liked this season nearly as much if you were forced to sympathize with Lilly/Jane no matter what you did. I should point out that I don't even hold it against Kenny that TT handled him so poorly. His character was fine, but the writers did a shit job with him this season.
Anyways, I'm not even a Lilly or Jane fan. Nick and Sarah ftw!
Kenny fans would love Kenny even if he would shit on clem's head.
TeamJane
Up to that point, they seemed pretty well-off and able to me. The only thing they really needed Clem to do was turn on a PA system. The only person out of those four I see as being a liability afterward is Luke and Jane. Who knows, they might have left behind a bag of supplies if Arvo hadn't shot Clem. After that, it was pretty much run or face the wrath of Kenny.
An option to not bond with characters you didn't sympathize with would be really nice too :P
That's true. I liked Kenny, though he has been an asshole sometimes. But an option to bond with other characters that you sympathize with would be really nice.
Totally agree
Kenny's treatment of Arvo and the other survivors' reactions to it were the turning point for me, and while I was excited to see that Telltale made him devolve into the kind of madman that Carver had become it disappointed me that they didn't commit to taking it all the way. No matter what you do, Kenny redeems himself and you're forced to see him as a sympathetic hero - even if it blatantly contradicts his prior behavior.
For example, why would Kenny be so calm and peaceful about being shot by Clem when he still had no reason to believe he'd done anything wrong? Why would he ask for you to put him down if he kills Jane, when he'd have much more motivation to revel in her death than he did with Larry or Arvo?
It's annoying to me because I just don't have the connection to him that I had with Lee, and I refuse to believe that Clem bonded with him more than she would have to many other characters - Christa, Luke or Sarah - who were far more reliable and less frightening. And it was very predictable of him to have a dignified, peaceful, guilt-free death while many other sympathetic characters get deaths that were handled far worse. Why is it that Clementine has to cry over him when her reaction to Sarah, or Pete, or Alvin, or Luke, or Rebecca, or virtually any other character this season is so subdued?
The only silver lining is that Kenny's determinant status means he'll die off-screen.
I think I would have shot Kenny if Jane didn't push his buttons in the car that's what made my mind up in the end.
Jane took it too far in my opinion.
Finally, we are rid of Kenny's curse. I liked his character just fine, but the way the writer's handled him in Season 2 was just horrible.
Thing is, her relationship with Lee was actually well developed, and most importantly, Clem and Lee were universally loved. Clem liking Lee no matter what can be excused because almost everyone liked her anyways and the player isn't given options to outright hate her.
Kenny was not so unanimously liked, and yet Telltale wrote Season Two under the assumption that everyone liked him, which alienated a much larger portion of the fanbase than the Clem haters.
While I agree that Jane seems to have her own problems and possibly agenda, I don't think she's trying to brainwash you. I think she legitimately cares about you and your well-being so she's trying to shed light on the fact that sometimes you may have to leave a group and you may be alone.
It didn't feel forced for a second, sorry you hated our hero. Guess people do really hate people with issues