I don't know what you're saying by bringing this up but I did notice that she grabbed his arm and he jerked away, which kind of made me think he was untrustworthy but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
She could have handled it differently but I completely understood where she was coming from. I'm not a Kenny fan but I know he would never hurt Clem, however Jane doesn't know that and after witnessing how Kenny treated Arvo, she doesn't want to take the risk of Clem being in danger with such a broken man. I don't think she deserves all the hate she's getting when she's just looking out for and protecting Clem even if she could have handled things differently! Jane does say Clem is 90% of the reason she came back afterall.
I used to hate Jane for her role in Sarah's death, but I found myself agreeing with her with Kenny's mental state and his violent ways and c… morehose to save Jane by shooting Kenny.
Even with the deception of the baby's fate, I wasn't really all that mad with her. It was a stupid move, yes, but ultimately she was right about Kenny and I just wanted to get away from him once and for all.
In the end I went with Jane and returned to Carver's place to start a new life.
Yes i did. Sorry maybe you got me wrong. She tried to put away her knife but I only said i didn't want her company anymore.
If it matters I was scared of Jane too. I tried to stop her and she didn't even listen to me. (Kenny too but i know him well.. i even kicked his knee)
She triggered the whole thing on purpose. It was self defence BUT in a dirty fight created by her just to prove something. Kenny attacked first because she made him to do it, and i think we all know that she expected that to happen. Don't misunderstand me this doesn't make the murder right and probably there's no point in looking for the culprit (but it matters to me). I just wanted to share my thoughts.
I don't know if you were playing the same game as me, but Kenny walked in already ready to fight. She even put her knife away once and wasn'… moret threatening him. He rammed her into the door. He started the fight and kept it going. Everyone was scared of Kenny, even Clementine.
I'm just saying that Jane did not make Kenny do ANYTHING. She created an incident. The incident is objective as follows. 1) They got lost and split up in a snowstorm. 2) Jane arrived and made it seem like the baby had been accidentally killed/lost.
That's it. That's all that Jane did. She didn't make him go off the handle. She didn't make him fight her. She didn't make him continue to fight her after she put away her knife. I'm just saying that Kenny provoked the fight. Jane may have created the situation, but Kenny is the person who acted it out. He jumped to rash conclusions about the baby's death and ASSUMED that Jane had killed the baby intentionally. Kenny wasn't thinking right and tried to kill someone because of what he was wrongly accusing her of.
Yes i did. Sorry maybe you got me wrong. She tried to put away her knife but I only said i didn't want her company anymore.
If it matters … moreI was scared of Jane too. I tried to stop her and she didn't even listen to me. (Kenny too but i know him well.. i even kicked his knee)
She triggered the whole thing on purpose. It was self defence BUT in a dirty fight created by her just to prove something. Kenny attacked first because she made him to do it, and i think we all know that she expected that to happen. Don't misunderstand me this doesn't make the murder right and probably there's no point in looking for the culprit (but it matters to me). I just wanted to share my thoughts.
REALLY? Jane wanted a fight, wanted to prove she was so superior to Kenny and everybody else in any group, she was selfish, and reckless.
Think about it this way, if it had been Lee instead of Kenny, and Clementine instead of AJ... what would have Lee done? And I use Lee, because I think we can all agree he was da man.
You don't pull out that kind of shit, Jane, not even during a non-apocalypse world, even less during one.
You're right about something.. Kenny was on the edge and wasn't thinking right. He wasn't thinking at all.
But she knew well that he wasn't going to pat her shoulders for what she's (not) done. I don't think this was a sane thing from her at all, they got separated in the snow and she comes up with this brilliant plan. Risking her own life, the baby's life. Let's just say we disagree.
I'm just saying that Jane did not make Kenny do ANYTHING. She created an incident. The incident is objective as follows. 1) They got lost an… mored split up in a snowstorm. 2) Jane arrived and made it seem like the baby had been accidentally killed/lost.
That's it. That's all that Jane did. She didn't make him go off the handle. She didn't make him fight her. She didn't make him continue to fight her after she put away her knife. I'm just saying that Kenny provoked the fight. Jane may have created the situation, but Kenny is the person who acted it out. He jumped to rash conclusions about the baby's death and ASSUMED that Jane had killed the baby intentionally. Kenny wasn't thinking right and tried to kill someone because of what he was wrongly accusing her of.
I know she knew what was going to happen. The truth is that was going to happen eventually. Imagine if Clementine or AJ had actually died, with no one actually being at fault? He would kill them out of anger. It was bound to happen. I'm not saying Jane is the best person alive and I do agree that her plan was dumb and shouldn't have been acted out, but she proved a very valid point and showing Kenny for what he was. Someone who was completely unstable and irrational/violent.
You're right about something.. Kenny was on the edge and wasn't thinking right. He wasn't thinking at all.
But she knew well that he wasn'… moret going to pat her shoulders for what she's (not) done. I don't think this was a sane thing from her at all, they got separated in the snow and she comes up with this brilliant plan. Risking her own life, the baby's life. Let's just say we disagree.
I don't know what you're saying by bringing this up but I did notice that she grabbed his arm and he jerked away, which kind of made me think he was untrustworthy but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
I understand it, but that doesn't make it any less wrong to deliberately work him up over a lie. I saw it coming, too, when she looked Clem in the eye and told her to "just stay out of it", like she'd planned something. Kenny runs out immediately out of concern for the kid first without bothering to wait for an explanation, but he's gone long enough for Jane to tell Clem, and she even hides it from her. Later, and this is determinant, she shoves Clem to the ground if she tries to stop her. Whether she feels safe with the knife or not, she wanted this fight. She wanted Kenny to lose it so that she'd have an excuse to end his life and say that he was "too far gone". But which is worse, traveling with someone who's "too far gone", or someone who will do what Jane did? I don't even have a word for this kind of betrayal. What was she thinking, that she could just go to the car, pull the baby out of a magic hat and expect Clem to clap her hands and yell "encore"?
In the end, I decided "stop killing my friend" wasn't as important as "I know you're lying about the baby being dead," so yeah, I let her get knifed. Unfortunately, player insight isn't catered to in this scene, so that's how it turned out. If I could have just called her bluff, I would have left her instead, but the way the Team wrote the narrative meant she had to die. I figured she and the Stranger are of a similar vein, except she's not crazy, just cold and manipulative. You don't have to be cold and manipulative to everyone for that label to apply, and Jane doesn't seem to have any reservations or hesitation for manipulating Kenny.
Rewatching it and it just looks like she's grabbing his arm. Could be but I don't know why she would hug Jane afterwards if she was intending on being violent. Who knows? We'll see soon.
She did scream that it wasn't her fault, to which Kenny didn't stop at all. And she put away the knife. Kenny lost it, stupid idea or not. You don't kill someone for making a mistake, something that Kenny has had trouble with since Season One (Ben).
I understand it, but that doesn't make it any less wrong to deliberately work him up over a lie. I saw it coming, too, when she looked Clem … morein the eye and told her to "just stay out of it", like she'd planned something. Kenny runs out immediately out of concern for the kid first without bothering to wait for an explanation, but he's gone long enough for Jane to tell Clem, and she even hides it from her. Later, and this is determinant, she shoves Clem to the ground if she tries to stop her. Whether she feels safe with the knife or not, she wanted this fight. She wanted Kenny to lose it so that she'd have an excuse to end his life and say that he was "too far gone". But which is worse, traveling with someone who's "too far gone", or someone who will do what Jane did? I don't even have a word for this kind of betrayal. What was she thinking, that she could just go to the car, pull the baby out of a magic hat and expect Clem to clap her hands and… [view original content]
You've got a point. In this episode Kenny promised me he'll change.. more than one time. (After killing jane, i told him that he's dangerous, and he replied he'll change and be better)
But what Bonnie said made me think, she said something like all the promises are bullshit. But just the three of us will be alright, i think.. i hope. (But in season 3 probably nor Kenny nor Jane will be alive)
I know she knew what was going to happen. The truth is that was going to happen eventually. Imagine if Clementine or AJ had actually died, w… moreith no one actually being at fault? He would kill them out of anger. It was bound to happen. I'm not saying Jane is the best person alive and I do agree that her plan was dumb and shouldn't have been acted out, but she proved a very valid point and showing Kenny for what he was. Someone who was completely unstable and irrational/violent.
She didn't cause the death of his wife or son. And the objective facts are that Kenny was told it was an accident even if AJ WAS killed. He didn't handle it rationally. He instead tried to kill her for what was said to be an accident.
Of course you can put the blame on either of them, but I think there is no good or bad here.
The two clashed and were going for a confrontation. I am sure that all through their fights most players tried to make Clem mediate and calm things. But they just wouldn't stop. The fact that in many playthroughs it seems Clem ends up alone just shows that many players weren't really comfortable around either of them.
Kenny had been broken and Jane had become completely untrustworthy. I think you can decide for and against each of them.
Kind of...but that doesn't justify leaving a baby in the freezing cold. Think about it from Clementine's perspective. She just gunned down the closest thing she had to a loved one, thinking there was no choice. Then Jane ups and tell her that she was lying and Clem has to deal with the fact that Kenny died for nothing. Wouldn't you feel unbelievably hurt and betrayed?
Clementine is angry, confused and heartbroken; certainly in no state to think about it rationally and try to understand why Jane did it. I did what I thought my Clementine would've done and refused to forgive her.
tl;dr: I understand where she was coming from, but had to assume that Clem doesn't.
Won't help Lee in saving Shaun, even when Duck is safely away from the zombies.
Bashes Larry's head in with the salt lick before we even know if CPR will work - Granted, in this case he thought he was doing well.
Spends the rest of Episode 2/3 whining that you "DIDN'T HAVE MY BACK!" if you don't allow him to cave Larry's skull in.
Wants Lee to ditch the girl/wants to use her horrific death as a distraction.
Starts preaching how "Duke won't turn! It's different!" when he's bitten but is the first to try and put down Larry for the same thing.
Wants Lee to drop Ben, bitches out Lee some more if you don't do it.
Won't go with you to save Clem unless A) Bring up family or Agree with him every time through the entire season.
Would rather beat the crap out of Arvo instead of helping Clem with the fire.
Obviously, these situations are all questionable on the 'right or wrong' front, but that's no different from Jane's more controversial points so I'll still bring them up. I realise that trying to counter-point the Kenny fandom is a lesson in bashing your fists against a brick wall but what the heck.
Oh, and let's not forget every time you disagree with him, you never hear the end of it.
But, she could have ended hostilities immediately by revealing the truth. She did appear to not want the fight, but she clearly planned to work Kenny up into a rage, knowing full well how aggressive he would be. Afterwards, she says that her intention was to show Clem the "real" side of Kenny, and quite frankly there is no reason for her to provoke him like that unless she wanted to fight him. I'm even starting to think that she would have provoked him even more had he calmed down.
Also, her putting away her blade could subconsciously encourage Kenny to attack at that point, because she would be less of a threat in a fight. And, from a cynical point of view, a hand-to-hand fight would be drawn out longer than a hand-to-blade fight, allowing Jane more time to convince Clem that Kenny was the wrong party. In my view, they were both wanting a fight
"Whether she feels safe with the knife or not, she wanted this fight."
Watch the scene again. You see she puts the knife away and tells Kenny to leave her alone. Kenny then does his usual trick of not thinking.
Just a minor correction: the only "cold blooded" person in this equation was Jane, not Kenny.
Kenny was acting out of passion and insanity. That is "hot blooded" action. Jane was following a plan and had thought things through prior to doing what she did. That is "cold blooded" premeditation.
This is the reason there is a difference between the penalties for premeditated murder (1st degree murder -- an act of cold blood) and crimes of passion (i.e,. 2nd degree murder -- an act where the person was totally out of control and how no forethought about doing what they were doing). Society has determined that a husband who goes to hire a contract killer (when he discovers his wife is cheating) is more dangerous than the husband who walks in on his wife with another man and kills somebody in a fit of rage. The person who plans diabolical things over time is to be feared more, for whatever reason.
This is why, if I am to side with one of these two murderers, I am more empathetic to Kenny's side of things. Prior events had really pushed him to the breaking point (Luke's death, Bonnie/Mike/Arvo's betrayal and nearly killing Clem, Jane saying those terrible things to him in the car), and Jane created a scenario that would spark off the powder keg. Kenny endured a lot. While I don't think him killing Jane (or lashing out at people earlier in the season) was fully justified, I do think it is a lot easier to empathize with him and understand why he broke like that when compared to some of the creepy stuff Jane says to Clem throughout the series. Considering her loss and prior history, however, I wasn't entirely unsympathetic to what she did either....
It's just that Jane's premeditation, her repeated emphasis not to let the group drag Clem down, and what she says about Clem and Jane being free to leave Kenny (in the truck when Kenny leaves to look for fuel) are way more twisted to me than Kenny's insanity. Kenny just showed how messed up he was on the outside and in big dramatic flourishes. If Clem shoots Kenny (but leaves Jane), her reaction is pretty telling (as are some of the ways she acts in the 2 endings at Howe's). She is eerily possessive toward Clem and went to great lengths to convince Clem to kill Kenny, a link to her past and her prior belief that staying together is preferable to cutthroat survivalism.
IDK... I actually think Jane's survival mentality would be necessary in a world like TWD, but I think people's bonds with each other (and willingness to forgive each other) are something that would also pull them through the shit more often than not. I know Kirman and this IP love to deny that expectation, but most of what I've said above explains that while I still think the Jane endings are "okay," there is something about them that creeps me out much more than the Kenny endings.
Sorry, I know this is a pro-Jane thread and I get if people disagree with me. But, to me anyways (operating in my bubble of not having to face life and death situations all of the time), Jane is by far the more predatory and manipulative of the two people. While this gives her a decided advantage in surviving, I just don't agree with totally sacrificing one's humanity in a zombie apocalypse.
I had to stop Kenny, because he looked to have crossed the point of no return. Even in the darkest times of Season 1, he never attacked or i… morenjured anyone in the group, including Ben. In my playthrough, he charged at Jane when she put her blade in the holster, and he was attacking her with the full intention of killing her. As soon as he tried to murder her in cold blood, I knew he had to go. Besides, Kenny says that you did the right thing in shooting him if you did, and I felt that was the right way for him to die: Knowing that he did wrong, sorry for what he put them through, and at peace ready to see Kat and Duck again. It was a really hard decision, but as soon as I saw him start to push the blade, I had to put an end to it.
(edit) In retrospect, after doing another playthrough where I let Kenny kill Jane (which feels like I aided in a murder), I'm really struggling to support Jane now. Yes, Kenny did attempt to kill her in cold blood … [view original content]
Okay. Let me break it down. Her statement, "Don't come near me, you son of a bitch", doesn't sound very genuine to me. Even then, I can't really blame Kenny for attacking her. Kenny doesn't have to be a hillbilly rocket scientist to judge from Clem's reaction to Jane's arrival that last time she saw the baby, it was still alive. She never at any point tries to calm him down, "just listen to me, baby's in a car, he's alive". And she totally can, but when she does try to tell him, she starts off with "it was an accident", doing her best to keep it vague. In the moment I'm referring to, when she shoves Clem to the ground(as if she couldn't be more bold or clear about this), the party representing an interest to end the fight, she verbally expresses her intent to end the fight differently. Lastly, at the very start, she says, "no matter what happens, just stay out of it." What's going to happen? Obviously something very bad might happen, and she doesn't want Clem to intervene, which would imply that it has something to do with someone being in danger. "You have to trust me. You're going to see what he really is". And this confirms it. She expects Kenny to lose his mind and attack her. If she didn't plan for this to happen, she wouldn't have hid the baby. Even if she doesn't want it to happen, she fully expects it and plans to deal with it, because she already knows the score.
"Whether she feels safe with the knife or not, she wanted this fight."
Watch the scene again. You see she puts the knife away and tells Kenny to leave her alone. Kenny then does his usual trick of not thinking.
I agree with a lot of what you said. It's just so hard to judge which person was more wrong, however I do see your point that he was acting in moment while Jane appeared to act in a premeditated fashion. Your argument about the difference between hot/cold-blooded actions is really convincing, and I definitely agree that Kenny is the easier to empathize with. But, you could interpret Jane's actions as done to protect both Clem and AJ from someone who she perceived to be a serious threat, with solid reason behind it.
Jane has seemed to ditch a lot of her humanity in order to survive, which is worrying. And yes, she does appear to be the more predatory and manipulative of the two, but Kenny still appeared to be a threat throughout Episode 5. While Jane has the survivalist attitude that would seem to guarantee her and Clem's survival, Kenny later appears to regain some of his humanity, and there is no doubting his determination to protect those he cares about. Truthfully, I have no idea who I would go with if I was in that situation, but in retrospect Kenny seems the better option.
All I can say is that Telltale did one hell of a job in this Jane-vs-Kenny issue. I'm absolutely stumped
Yeah... I hate how Jane was so deceitful about the whole thing. I don't think I could trust someone who tricked Clem into making a decision like that, even if she thought it was best for her. Clem knew Kenny best in the group and could see how unstable he had become so creating that situation was really unnecessary.. in the end she should have left the decision to Clem without forcing it upon her in the way she did.
Kind of...but that doesn't justify leaving a baby in the freezing cold. Think about it from Clementine's perspective. She just gunned down… more the closest thing she had to a loved one, thinking there was no choice. Then Jane ups and tell her that she was lying and Clem has to deal with the fact that Kenny died for nothing. Wouldn't you feel unbelievably hurt and betrayed?
Clementine is angry, confused and heartbroken; certainly in no state to think about it rationally and try to understand why Jane did it. I did what I thought my Clementine would've done and refused to forgive her.
tl;dr: I understand where she was coming from, but had to assume that Clem doesn't.
Yeah, I liked the way the choice plays out because I could see the merits of both characters. Jane's mentality and way of surviving might truly be the best way or making it in a world as messed up as this, but the softy in me also believes men like Kenny are going to be what makes life worth living for those lucky enough to make it to "safety" (if there is such a thing in Kirkman's world)....
Without spoiling too much, you see a lot of this in the character of Rick Grimes (more so in the comics than the TV show), with his journey from idealistic lawman to gritty, borderline sadistic survivor... to ultimately someone who is human but still a hardened survivor as well.
Hershel (in the TV show) was also vital in reminding the survivors that being human was still important, but so many of the experiences of the various characters in this world also remind us that the most dangerous thing they will face isn't the walkers, it's the other humans who are also pushed to the absolute limits of their sanity and morality by the extreme situation they're facing...
This is the one reason I ultimately would be able to forgive Jane, even if I am creeped out by her manipulation and possessiveness. It's also why I could forgive Kenny and respect his wishes that I stay at Wellington (or refuse his request and stay with him). And, it's why I feel okay with shooting Kenny and even leaving Jane. The nice thing about ep5 (that was missing too often from S2 as a whole) was it gave us a good sense of how impossible some of these choices would really be (and how interesting it is to see how each one plays out).
I really hope next season they continue with Clem's story. I realize Jane and Kenny will likely be dead, or have to die somehow (and the three different ending locations for Clem will somehow have to lead to a unified starting place for S3), but I think S2 really created an excellent sense of Clementine being tempted by both the humanity and love that comes from loyalty vs. the safety and freedom that comes from ruthless pragmatism.
I only wish the "alone with the herd" option felt more satisfying. To me, it would have been perfect for Clem to start walking through the herd, then noticing one of the "walkers" is Christa... upon closer inspection, she realizes Christa is not a walker, but is just kinda zoning out and moving like a "walking dead" while walking in the herd for protection (like Michonne's backstory from the TV show). It would have been amazing if the "zoned out" Christa suddenly snaps out of it enough to see Clem's small form (and baby) walking there among the herd. Being unable to call out, they'd use smiles and small gestures to begin moving away from the herd, and as they finally get to where they can exchange a few words safely, you get a dialogue choice and as Clem says her first words to Christa, fade to black
I agree with a lot of what you said. It's just so hard to judge which person was more wrong, however I do see your point that he was acting … morein moment while Jane appeared to act in a premeditated fashion. Your argument about the difference between hot/cold-blooded actions is really convincing, and I definitely agree that Kenny is the easier to empathize with. But, you could interpret Jane's actions as done to protect both Clem and AJ from someone who she perceived to be a serious threat, with solid reason behind it.
Jane has seemed to ditch a lot of her humanity in order to survive, which is worrying. And yes, she does appear to be the more predatory and manipulative of the two, but Kenny still appeared to be a threat throughout Episode 5. While Jane has the survivalist attitude that would seem to guarantee her and Clem's survival, Kenny later appears to regain some of his humanity, and there is no doubting his determination to protect thos… [view original content]
Jane wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Lee, at least not my Lee, because Lee was a voice of reason, not a voice of madness.
Selfish and reckless people don't come back to save your ass, you know. Jane did that several times throughout the season.
REALLY? Jane wanted a fight, wanted to prove she was so superior to Kenny and everybody else in any group, she was selfish, and reckless.
… more Think about it this way, if it had been Lee instead of Kenny, and Clementine instead of AJ... what would have Lee done? And I use Lee, because I think we can all agree he was da man.
You don't pull out that kind of shit, Jane, not even during a non-apocalypse world, even less during one.
Okay. Let me break it down. Her statement, "Don't come near me, you son of a bitch", doesn't sound very genuine to me. Even then, I can't re… moreally blame Kenny for attacking her. Kenny doesn't have to be a hillbilly rocket scientist to judge from Clem's reaction to Jane's arrival that last time she saw the baby, it was still alive. She never at any point tries to calm him down, "just listen to me, baby's in a car, he's alive". And she totally can, but when she does try to tell him, she starts off with "it was an accident", doing her best to keep it vague. In the moment I'm referring to, when she shoves Clem to the ground(as if she couldn't be more bold or clear about this), the party representing an interest to end the fight, she verbally expresses her intent to end the fight differently. Lastly, at the very start, she says, "no matter what happens, just stay out of it." What's going to happen? Obviously something very bad might happen, and she … [view original content]
Kenny saved Lee in Episode 1, and he does again at the end if you choose not to shoot him. Just watch that ending with him alive and tell me if you still think he was crazy after that.
Jane wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Lee, at least not my Lee, because Lee was a voice of reason, not a voice of madness.
Selfish and reckless people don't come back to save your ass, you know. Jane did that several times throughout the season.
Yeah I understand where she's coming from, she's just a manipulative selfish bitch and anyone who sided with her want their Clem to grow up and become just the same way Jane is.
Yeah, Season 2 on the whole didn't have many choices where I was moving my mouse frantically between them and making them in the last second. Episode 5 was so strong in that department, and I hope that they have more in the next Season. Both had reason to do what they did, although Kenny's was more based on impulse rather than logic. The hardest decisions of the Season, and arguably of TWDG on a whole, were in this episode, and there seems to be no right or wrong.
To begin with, wanting to storm out of the van in Carver's compound without realising they could all get killed.
Then ignoring the plan of everyone else in the group except determinantly clementine and proving he doesn't want a democracy. 'I got the car started, I get to decide where we go'. Yeah, how selfless.
* Won't help Lee in saving Shaun, even when Duck is safely away from the zombies.
* Bashes Larry's head in with the salt lick before we eve… moren know if CPR will work - Granted, in this case he thought he was doing well.
* Spends the rest of Episode 2/3 whining that you "DIDN'T HAVE MY BACK!" if you don't allow him to cave Larry's skull in.
* Wants Lee to ditch the girl/wants to use her horrific death as a distraction.
* Starts preaching how "Duke won't turn! It's different!" when he's bitten but is the first to try and put down Larry for the same thing.
* Wants Lee to drop Ben, bitches out Lee some more if you don't do it.
* Won't go with you to save Clem unless A) Bring up family or Agree with him every time through the entire season.
*
* Would rather beat the crap out of Arvo instead of helping Clem with the fire.
Obviously, these situations are all questionable on the 'right or wrong' front, but that's no different from Jane's m… [view original content]
Kenny blowing up was bound to happen, it was inevitable, but how Jane went about it was completely wrong. She manipulated Kenny and Clem and egged Kenny on for nothing but to force a situation and prove a point. She put AJ in danger, forced Clem to kill someone she loved for nothing or gets killed herself, just to prove a point. It was ridiculous to do something like that. What she did wasn't right.
Comments
I don't know what you're saying by bringing this up but I did notice that she grabbed his arm and he jerked away, which kind of made me think he was untrustworthy but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
I understood her. I would be so much like Jane in a zombie apocalypse.
Allow me to retort:
Fuck Kenny , he can rot for all eternity as a walker now
XD
Same as me bro.
She could have handled it differently but I completely understood where she was coming from. I'm not a Kenny fan but I know he would never hurt Clem, however Jane doesn't know that and after witnessing how Kenny treated Arvo, she doesn't want to take the risk of Clem being in danger with such a broken man. I don't think she deserves all the hate she's getting when she's just looking out for and protecting Clem even if she could have handled things differently! Jane does say Clem is 90% of the reason she came back afterall.
Thanks god somebody thinks like me.
Yes i did. Sorry maybe you got me wrong. She tried to put away her knife but I only said i didn't want her company anymore.
If it matters I was scared of Jane too. I tried to stop her and she didn't even listen to me. (Kenny too but i know him well.. i even kicked his knee)
She triggered the whole thing on purpose. It was self defence BUT in a dirty fight created by her just to prove something. Kenny attacked first because she made him to do it, and i think we all know that she expected that to happen. Don't misunderstand me this doesn't make the murder right and probably there's no point in looking for the culprit (but it matters to me). I just wanted to share my thoughts.
Yeah, I understood her, and I forgave her. But I still don't think she was right in manipulating Clem just to make a point.
I'm just saying that Jane did not make Kenny do ANYTHING. She created an incident. The incident is objective as follows. 1) They got lost and split up in a snowstorm. 2) Jane arrived and made it seem like the baby had been accidentally killed/lost.
That's it. That's all that Jane did. She didn't make him go off the handle. She didn't make him fight her. She didn't make him continue to fight her after she put away her knife. I'm just saying that Kenny provoked the fight. Jane may have created the situation, but Kenny is the person who acted it out. He jumped to rash conclusions about the baby's death and ASSUMED that Jane had killed the baby intentionally. Kenny wasn't thinking right and tried to kill someone because of what he was wrongly accusing her of.
REALLY? Jane wanted a fight, wanted to prove she was so superior to Kenny and everybody else in any group, she was selfish, and reckless.
Think about it this way, if it had been Lee instead of Kenny, and Clementine instead of AJ... what would have Lee done? And I use Lee, because I think we can all agree he was da man.
You don't pull out that kind of shit, Jane, not even during a non-apocalypse world, even less during one.
You're right about something.. Kenny was on the edge and wasn't thinking right. He wasn't thinking at all.
But she knew well that he wasn't going to pat her shoulders for what she's (not) done. I don't think this was a sane thing from her at all, they got separated in the snow and she comes up with this brilliant plan. Risking her own life, the baby's life. Let's just say we disagree.
I know she knew what was going to happen. The truth is that was going to happen eventually. Imagine if Clementine or AJ had actually died, with no one actually being at fault? He would kill them out of anger. It was bound to happen. I'm not saying Jane is the best person alive and I do agree that her plan was dumb and shouldn't have been acted out, but she proved a very valid point and showing Kenny for what he was. Someone who was completely unstable and irrational/violent.
To be honest, I thought she was trying to grab his gun, but he pushed her arm away.
I understood her opposition to Kenny, but her actions were crazy.
Understanding and agreeing are two different things. I understand why she did what she did but I sure as hell don't have to agree with it.
I understand it, but that doesn't make it any less wrong to deliberately work him up over a lie. I saw it coming, too, when she looked Clem in the eye and told her to "just stay out of it", like she'd planned something. Kenny runs out immediately out of concern for the kid first without bothering to wait for an explanation, but he's gone long enough for Jane to tell Clem, and she even hides it from her. Later, and this is determinant, she shoves Clem to the ground if she tries to stop her. Whether she feels safe with the knife or not, she wanted this fight. She wanted Kenny to lose it so that she'd have an excuse to end his life and say that he was "too far gone". But which is worse, traveling with someone who's "too far gone", or someone who will do what Jane did? I don't even have a word for this kind of betrayal. What was she thinking, that she could just go to the car, pull the baby out of a magic hat and expect Clem to clap her hands and yell "encore"?
In the end, I decided "stop killing my friend" wasn't as important as "I know you're lying about the baby being dead," so yeah, I let her get knifed. Unfortunately, player insight isn't catered to in this scene, so that's how it turned out. If I could have just called her bluff, I would have left her instead, but the way the Team wrote the narrative meant she had to die. I figured she and the Stranger are of a similar vein, except she's not crazy, just cold and manipulative. You don't have to be cold and manipulative to everyone for that label to apply, and Jane doesn't seem to have any reservations or hesitation for manipulating Kenny.
Rewatching it and it just looks like she's grabbing his arm. Could be but I don't know why she would hug Jane afterwards if she was intending on being violent. Who knows? We'll see soon.
A mistake ? A MISTAKE ?
Causing the death of your wife and son AND the potential death of a baby is A MISTAKE ??
What.
"Whether she feels safe with the knife or not, she wanted this fight."
Watch the scene again. You see she puts the knife away and tells Kenny to leave her alone. Kenny then does his usual trick of not thinking.
You've got a point. In this episode Kenny promised me he'll change.. more than one time. (After killing jane, i told him that he's dangerous, and he replied he'll change and be better)
But what Bonnie said made me think, she said something like all the promises are bullshit. But just the three of us will be alright, i think.. i hope. (But in season 3 probably nor Kenny nor Jane will be alive)
She didn't cause the death of his wife or son. And the objective facts are that Kenny was told it was an accident even if AJ WAS killed. He didn't handle it rationally. He instead tried to kill her for what was said to be an accident.
Of course you can put the blame on either of them, but I think there is no good or bad here.
The two clashed and were going for a confrontation. I am sure that all through their fights most players tried to make Clem mediate and calm things. But they just wouldn't stop. The fact that in many playthroughs it seems Clem ends up alone just shows that many players weren't really comfortable around either of them.
Kenny had been broken and Jane had become completely untrustworthy. I think you can decide for and against each of them.
Kind of...but that doesn't justify leaving a baby in the freezing cold. Think about it from Clementine's perspective. She just gunned down the closest thing she had to a loved one, thinking there was no choice. Then Jane ups and tell her that she was lying and Clem has to deal with the fact that Kenny died for nothing. Wouldn't you feel unbelievably hurt and betrayed?
Clementine is angry, confused and heartbroken; certainly in no state to think about it rationally and try to understand why Jane did it. I did what I thought my Clementine would've done and refused to forgive her.
tl;dr: I understand where she was coming from, but had to assume that Clem doesn't.
Obviously, these situations are all questionable on the 'right or wrong' front, but that's no different from Jane's more controversial points so I'll still bring them up. I realise that trying to counter-point the Kenny fandom is a lesson in bashing your fists against a brick wall but what the heck.
Oh, and let's not forget every time you disagree with him, you never hear the end of it.
But, she could have ended hostilities immediately by revealing the truth. She did appear to not want the fight, but she clearly planned to work Kenny up into a rage, knowing full well how aggressive he would be. Afterwards, she says that her intention was to show Clem the "real" side of Kenny, and quite frankly there is no reason for her to provoke him like that unless she wanted to fight him. I'm even starting to think that she would have provoked him even more had he calmed down.
Also, her putting away her blade could subconsciously encourage Kenny to attack at that point, because she would be less of a threat in a fight. And, from a cynical point of view, a hand-to-hand fight would be drawn out longer than a hand-to-blade fight, allowing Jane more time to convince Clem that Kenny was the wrong party. In my view, they were both wanting a fight
Just a minor correction: the only "cold blooded" person in this equation was Jane, not Kenny.
Kenny was acting out of passion and insanity. That is "hot blooded" action. Jane was following a plan and had thought things through prior to doing what she did. That is "cold blooded" premeditation.
This is the reason there is a difference between the penalties for premeditated murder (1st degree murder -- an act of cold blood) and crimes of passion (i.e,. 2nd degree murder -- an act where the person was totally out of control and how no forethought about doing what they were doing). Society has determined that a husband who goes to hire a contract killer (when he discovers his wife is cheating) is more dangerous than the husband who walks in on his wife with another man and kills somebody in a fit of rage. The person who plans diabolical things over time is to be feared more, for whatever reason.
This is why, if I am to side with one of these two murderers, I am more empathetic to Kenny's side of things. Prior events had really pushed him to the breaking point (Luke's death, Bonnie/Mike/Arvo's betrayal and nearly killing Clem, Jane saying those terrible things to him in the car), and Jane created a scenario that would spark off the powder keg. Kenny endured a lot. While I don't think him killing Jane (or lashing out at people earlier in the season) was fully justified, I do think it is a lot easier to empathize with him and understand why he broke like that when compared to some of the creepy stuff Jane says to Clem throughout the series. Considering her loss and prior history, however, I wasn't entirely unsympathetic to what she did either....
It's just that Jane's premeditation, her repeated emphasis not to let the group drag Clem down, and what she says about Clem and Jane being free to leave Kenny (in the truck when Kenny leaves to look for fuel) are way more twisted to me than Kenny's insanity. Kenny just showed how messed up he was on the outside and in big dramatic flourishes. If Clem shoots Kenny (but leaves Jane), her reaction is pretty telling (as are some of the ways she acts in the 2 endings at Howe's). She is eerily possessive toward Clem and went to great lengths to convince Clem to kill Kenny, a link to her past and her prior belief that staying together is preferable to cutthroat survivalism.
IDK... I actually think Jane's survival mentality would be necessary in a world like TWD, but I think people's bonds with each other (and willingness to forgive each other) are something that would also pull them through the shit more often than not. I know Kirman and this IP love to deny that expectation, but most of what I've said above explains that while I still think the Jane endings are "okay," there is something about them that creeps me out much more than the Kenny endings.
Sorry, I know this is a pro-Jane thread and I get if people disagree with me. But, to me anyways (operating in my bubble of not having to face life and death situations all of the time), Jane is by far the more predatory and manipulative of the two people. While this gives her a decided advantage in surviving, I just don't agree with totally sacrificing one's humanity in a zombie apocalypse.
Okay. Let me break it down. Her statement, "Don't come near me, you son of a bitch", doesn't sound very genuine to me. Even then, I can't really blame Kenny for attacking her. Kenny doesn't have to be a hillbilly rocket scientist to judge from Clem's reaction to Jane's arrival that last time she saw the baby, it was still alive. She never at any point tries to calm him down, "just listen to me, baby's in a car, he's alive". And she totally can, but when she does try to tell him, she starts off with "it was an accident", doing her best to keep it vague. In the moment I'm referring to, when she shoves Clem to the ground(as if she couldn't be more bold or clear about this), the party representing an interest to end the fight, she verbally expresses her intent to end the fight differently. Lastly, at the very start, she says, "no matter what happens, just stay out of it." What's going to happen? Obviously something very bad might happen, and she doesn't want Clem to intervene, which would imply that it has something to do with someone being in danger. "You have to trust me. You're going to see what he really is". And this confirms it. She expects Kenny to lose his mind and attack her. If she didn't plan for this to happen, she wouldn't have hid the baby. Even if she doesn't want it to happen, she fully expects it and plans to deal with it, because she already knows the score.
I agree with a lot of what you said. It's just so hard to judge which person was more wrong, however I do see your point that he was acting in moment while Jane appeared to act in a premeditated fashion. Your argument about the difference between hot/cold-blooded actions is really convincing, and I definitely agree that Kenny is the easier to empathize with. But, you could interpret Jane's actions as done to protect both Clem and AJ from someone who she perceived to be a serious threat, with solid reason behind it.
Jane has seemed to ditch a lot of her humanity in order to survive, which is worrying. And yes, she does appear to be the more predatory and manipulative of the two, but Kenny still appeared to be a threat throughout Episode 5. While Jane has the survivalist attitude that would seem to guarantee her and Clem's survival, Kenny later appears to regain some of his humanity, and there is no doubting his determination to protect those he cares about. Truthfully, I have no idea who I would go with if I was in that situation, but in retrospect Kenny seems the better option.
All I can say is that Telltale did one hell of a job in this Jane-vs-Kenny issue. I'm absolutely stumped
Yeah... I hate how Jane was so deceitful about the whole thing. I don't think I could trust someone who tricked Clem into making a decision like that, even if she thought it was best for her. Clem knew Kenny best in the group and could see how unstable he had become so creating that situation was really unnecessary.. in the end she should have left the decision to Clem without forcing it upon her in the way she did.
People forget that if Ben hadn't given the bandits supplies, they would've attack much sooner and Kenny wouldn't have repaired the RV by then.
Understanding doesn't make it right. Just saying.
Yeah, I liked the way the choice plays out because I could see the merits of both characters. Jane's mentality and way of surviving might truly be the best way or making it in a world as messed up as this, but the softy in me also believes men like Kenny are going to be what makes life worth living for those lucky enough to make it to "safety" (if there is such a thing in Kirkman's world)....
Without spoiling too much, you see a lot of this in the character of Rick Grimes (more so in the comics than the TV show), with his journey from idealistic lawman to gritty, borderline sadistic survivor... to ultimately someone who is human but still a hardened survivor as well.
Hershel (in the TV show) was also vital in reminding the survivors that being human was still important, but so many of the experiences of the various characters in this world also remind us that the most dangerous thing they will face isn't the walkers, it's the other humans who are also pushed to the absolute limits of their sanity and morality by the extreme situation they're facing...
This is the one reason I ultimately would be able to forgive Jane, even if I am creeped out by her manipulation and possessiveness. It's also why I could forgive Kenny and respect his wishes that I stay at Wellington (or refuse his request and stay with him). And, it's why I feel okay with shooting Kenny and even leaving Jane. The nice thing about ep5 (that was missing too often from S2 as a whole) was it gave us a good sense of how impossible some of these choices would really be (and how interesting it is to see how each one plays out).
I really hope next season they continue with Clem's story. I realize Jane and Kenny will likely be dead, or have to die somehow (and the three different ending locations for Clem will somehow have to lead to a unified starting place for S3), but I think S2 really created an excellent sense of Clementine being tempted by both the humanity and love that comes from loyalty vs. the safety and freedom that comes from ruthless pragmatism.
I only wish the "alone with the herd" option felt more satisfying. To me, it would have been perfect for Clem to start walking through the herd, then noticing one of the "walkers" is Christa... upon closer inspection, she realizes Christa is not a walker, but is just kinda zoning out and moving like a "walking dead" while walking in the herd for protection (like Michonne's backstory from the TV show). It would have been amazing if the "zoned out" Christa suddenly snaps out of it enough to see Clem's small form (and baby) walking there among the herd. Being unable to call out, they'd use smiles and small gestures to begin moving away from the herd, and as they finally get to where they can exchange a few words safely, you get a dialogue choice and as Clem says her first words to Christa, fade to black
Jane wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Lee, at least not my Lee, because Lee was a voice of reason, not a voice of madness.
Selfish and reckless people don't come back to save your ass, you know. Jane did that several times throughout the season.
"no matter what happens, just stay out of it." I did what she asked, can't blame me if she lost and got stabbed.
Kenny saved Lee in Episode 1, and he does again at the end if you choose not to shoot him. Just watch that ending with him alive and tell me if you still think he was crazy after that.
Look out, the Kenny police are at it again.
I don't want my clem to be selfish. It's not about BECOMING like Jane/. It's about Jane becoming more like Clem.
The jane scene at the end, where you can let in survivors, proves that you can still be clem and not want her to grow up as selfish.
Kenny was about to murder her. Kenny threw the first punch. Easy moral decision, for me.
Yeah, Season 2 on the whole didn't have many choices where I was moving my mouse frantically between them and making them in the last second. Episode 5 was so strong in that department, and I hope that they have more in the next Season. Both had reason to do what they did, although Kenny's was more based on impulse rather than logic. The hardest decisions of the Season, and arguably of TWDG on a whole, were in this episode, and there seems to be no right or wrong.
Kenny's selfishness?
Wow, too many to list dude.
To begin with, wanting to storm out of the van in Carver's compound without realising they could all get killed.
Then ignoring the plan of everyone else in the group except determinantly clementine and proving he doesn't want a democracy. 'I got the car started, I get to decide where we go'. Yeah, how selfless.
This.
Don't worry about Clem_is_Awesome, he's having a crisis on the fact that Kenny is determinant.
Kenny blowing up was bound to happen, it was inevitable, but how Jane went about it was completely wrong. She manipulated Kenny and Clem and egged Kenny on for nothing but to force a situation and prove a point. She put AJ in danger, forced Clem to kill someone she loved for nothing or gets killed herself, just to prove a point. It was ridiculous to do something like that. What she did wasn't right.