Jane knew how to push Kenny's hot topic buttons and constantly did that to push him over the edge. She knew how messed up he was and Clementine was pretty much the only one able to keep him in check. She didn't have to do any of that, but she did. Maybe it was to help Clementine, maybe it was to cement the fact that she had another little sister and a chance to do right by this one. But she was fucked up for putting Kenny in that situation. Especially when we saw how determined he was to raise AJ right(correcting how he'd fucked up with Duck) and keep him and Clementine safe. She could have easily said, "WAIT! AJ's alive. I just wanted to prove a point to Clem" after he blew up.
And how do you figure that? Based on the last confrontation? Where it was just her, and prepubescent kid you've grown attached to, and an un… morehinged, proven violent grown ass man? Where she was sick of seeing Clementine make excuses for Kenny violent behavior, and caring for her, made the baby as safe as she could so she could deal with a difficult situation to try and make Clementine see Kenny was out of road? She knew it would be a risk of her own life to provoke him, but if not then, then when? When he starts killing actually innocent people? So Clem can whine that he didn't mean it, and is actually a good person underneath? Sound familiar?
Jane was desperate and showed great character growth putting her own life on the line to try and convince a storyline railroaded Clementine that, however much a good person Kenny was in the past, he was no longer a person who listens to reason. That however apologetic he gets, he is too prone to violen… [view original content]
Did she not think if she was killed as Kenny had knife towards her chest and Kenny & Clementine went off thinking the baby is dead, then what? Baby would've starved to death or killed by walkers if it didn't cry and alerted Clem & Kenny of it's presence. She put the baby in danger and put Clementine in a position to kill the one person she cared for all just to prove a unnecessary point. This is why me and many gamers despise her.
Mike & Bonnie were stupid cowards, that's all they were, in the end they were willing to leave a little girl that saved their sorry asses for dead. The funny thing about Jane, Mike & Bonnie is that they had no problem living under Carver's roof with Bonnie kissing his ass but when Kenny treats Arvo harshly who had them ambushed, they see him as the bad guy, Jane delusionally believes that he's the next Carver because how he treats Arvo is similar to the actions of a child beating, handicapped murdering piece of human garbage and confusingly there are people that see it this way also.
Really, I do not understand all the Jane hate? The baby was in a car, safe and she felt confident she could handle Kenny. Keep in mind tha… moret Jane was trying to prove something to Clementine. Kenny was turning into another Carver, he even admitted he lost himself if you shoot him. There is no way that I can trust someone who beats on an innocent man (Arvo) and feels justified.
Remember why Bonnie and Mike were leaving, they feared for their lives with Kenny. The man was broken and I would have been afraid for Clementine if she stayed with him.
Seriously?? He had all the right to attack her, she left the group before and showed she didn't care for anyone. She did come back, I was happy about that but she wanted to make Kenny mad and snap....she wanted Clem to take the place of her sister and she was willing to sacrifice Kenny to get it by acting like a fucking fool!!
When she said to Clem, "don't get in the middle", I knew something was up...but I was still hesitant to take sides. I tried to stop it but when it got deadly I let Kenny kill her. Just as everyone hated Kenny when he hated the teenage kid from season one (I cannot remember his name ATM) he eventually stood with him in the alley to protect him. Kenny may be an asshole, but he will protect children and the weak as long as they are not backstabbers.
I never loved Kenny as much as I do now, he has pulled me to his side and I will stand by him unless he flips and goes pyscho. To you pure Kenny haters....you amaze me. As much of a pain in the ass he can be, Kenny IS a good guy as is noticed upon reaching Wellington and trying to give Clem and AJ to the town to protect them.....I almost left to go, but in the end I couldn't watch Kenny lose anything else, it would have been the death of him.
EXACTLY. Thought. No evidence. Jane kept saying it was an accident. He had NO right to attack her. Jane did what she hoped for, to show Clem… more what a monster Kenny is when he gets into a rage. If there's no one else around, it will be Clementine he attacks next time.
Jane is the best thing that could've happened to Clementine, the best person to come across after Lee. Kenny was a fucking time bomb, fucking unstable, an old bitter angry man. Jane is the most reasonable and taught Clem more than Kenny ever has, the whole time Clem had to be the adult and calm Kenny down, what the fuck is that? I gladly shot him, so relieved and kinda happy for him cuz my Clementine believes he is seeing his family again.
I suspect this guy could really lose his shit and put us at danger, so I will do precisely the one thing that I know is going to make him lo… morese his shit. Now I'm dead and have lost Clementine's respect but it was worth it because I. proved. my. point.
How absolutely retarded is that.
"Wait guys, I think this old wooden bridge is about to crumble. Don't believe me ? Watch closely as I carry this heavy stone across it and purposely jump multiple times." Krak! "TOLD YAAaaaa"..... [Splatch.]
Whilst you might consider her actions "brave" and "selfless," you need to understand the situation from Kenny's perspective. If you thought somebody killed one of your beloved family members or friends, would you not try and hurt them too? Don't expect Kenny to take it casually. "Oh, you killed the baby, it's okay, let's forget it now sweetie!" No. Imagine the hurt and pain you would experience if somebody did the same to you. I would want to hurt ANYBODY that killed someone close to me, and I assume that you would too. Jane could've even said that it was all fake, and he would've stopped immediately. The fact that she tried to fool Kenny with such a horrible and upsetting lie is disgraceful! She clearly doesn't understand the emotional attachment a father has to his children, and to hear that they are dead is just... unbelievable. She deserved to die for what she did.
She wasn't proving a point. She was trying to get Clem to see that, no matter how much she tried, Kenny was too far gone to pull back, and e… moreven if it cost her life (the risk of which would have been unthinkable up to this point), make Clem see she couldn't keep reinforcing Kenny's behavior, and that she was being led down a destructive path. She sees it if she shoots Kenny, and even if she lets Jane die, she has the opportunity to see it with her death. Jane had come to care about Clementine, and had to do what she thought was best for her, caught in a storm with a newborn baby on the end of your metaphorical rope. To believe that she was merely being selfish totally misses the point of her character arc.
She could have easily said, "WAIT! AJ's alive. I just wanted to prove a point to Clem" after he blew up.
INDEED. Kenny would have rushed immediately to the car to check on the baby.
Jane could have proved her point without making it a situation where one of them had to die. She made it "it's either Kenny or me", and I hate her guts for it because before she pulled that shit I liked her too and found it nice to have both of them, it felt like parents. As soon as I had guessed her little game (the way she gave me those looks was already suspicious, but when she told me to trust her no matter what happened I definitely knew something she had a something in mind) I did what I could to help Kenny in the fight and I let him kill her.
She lost to a game she tricked Kenny into playing to. She didn't deserve that but shooting him would have been the worse injustice.
Jane knew how to push Kenny's hot topic buttons and constantly did that to push him over the edge. She knew how messed up he was and Clement… moreine was pretty much the only one able to keep him in check. She didn't have to do any of that, but she did. Maybe it was to help Clementine, maybe it was to cement the fact that she had another little sister and a chance to do right by this one. But she was fucked up for putting Kenny in that situation. Especially when we saw how determined he was to raise AJ right(correcting how he'd fucked up with Duck) and keep him and Clementine safe. She could have easily said, "WAIT! AJ's alive. I just wanted to prove a point to Clem" after he blew up.
You call me a pure Kenny hater for having an opinion. I can switch that around and say, You amaze me for supporting Kenny.
How does leaving show she doesn't care for anyone? If she came back that obviously proves that wrong. I shot Kenny and I don't regret it. He deserved it. You also act like she PLANNED for Kenny to die. That wasn't her intention. HE made the fight deadly. Infact, HE started the fight in the first place.
"She wanted Clem to take the place of her sister". You mean how Kenny wants Clem to be his new Duck? Wiling to sacrifice Kenny? No. Her intentions were to show Clem what Kenny was capable of and she succeeded.
Also, your point about Ben going in the alley to save him, so what? He redeemed himself. That doesn't exactly mean he's a good person, it just means he's a man that's capable of doing good things. I praise him for what he did in the alley, but that doesn't make him much better in my book.
Seriously?? He had all the right to attack her, she left the group before and showed she didn't care for anyone. She did come back, I was ha… moreppy about that but she wanted to make Kenny mad and snap....she wanted Clem to take the place of her sister and she was willing to sacrifice Kenny to get it by acting like a fucking fool!!
When she said to Clem, "don't get in the middle", I knew something was up...but I was still hesitant to take sides. I tried to stop it but when it got deadly I let Kenny kill her. Just as everyone hated Kenny when he hated the teenage kid from season one (I cannot remember his name ATM) he eventually stood with him in the alley to protect him. Kenny may be an asshole, but he will protect children and the weak as long as they are not backstabbers.
I never loved Kenny as much as I do now, he has pulled me to his side and I will stand by him unless he flips and goes pyscho. To you pure Kenny haters....you amaze me. A… [view original content]
She didn't go intending to die, but it being a possibility with how much more unstable (and older and stronger) he was over her. She put her life at risk to finally get through to Clem about enabling his crazy behavior. She tells her to stay out of it. She's seen this kind of behavior, and she's determined to put an end to it where everyone else just wants to cow tow, or run away and abandon a little girl and a baby, however capable they are, with a huge man obviously going over the deep end. But Kenny scared them that much. Does that not hold weight? Is that not a red flag?
Bonnie, much like Clem these last two episodes, makes excuses for Carver. And Carver was running his institution with armed and dangerous zealots to his cause. Remember how Carlos and the rest of the cabin group were scared of what he was capable of, and still couldn't get away? Of course they put up with it, basically as prisoners, and the first chance they got to bring down the system and get away from that madman, they took it.
Everyone saw that sticking with Kenny was an ultimately destructive path. Clem was following him down it, constantly apologizing for his behavior, constantly at odds with her sense of good judgement and constantly unsure of exactly how to handle the situation. She was stuck. Jane saw this. She's seen it before. She acted, ensuring the baby was as secure as it was going to get and confronting him by still offering him a chance to not be a total violent dickweed. She didn't put Clem in a position to kill him. Circumstances contrived to put that choice on her. And its ultimately up to the player if she kills Kenny or leaves Jane to her fate.
Kenny's treatment of Arvo is no different than how Carver treated... well, Kenny himself. Beating him half to death for a bit of (admittedly justified) insolence. He let his emotions dictate his actions, and then thinks that apologizing and appealing to his history with Clem will save him. And Clem lets him do it for lack of knowing how to actually handle the situation. She's stuck. Its not hard to see the Carver/Bonnie relationship with Kenny/Clementine.
Did she not think if she was killed as Kenny had knife towards her chest and Kenny & Clementine went off thinking the baby is dead, then… more what? Baby would've starved to death or killed by walkers if it didn't cry and alerted Clem & Kenny of it's presence. She put the baby in danger and put Clementine in a position to kill the one person she cared for all just to prove a unnecessary point. This is why me and many gamers despise her.
Mike & Bonnie were stupid cowards, that's all they were, in the end they were willing to leave a little girl that saved their sorry asses for dead. The funny thing about Jane, Mike & Bonnie is that they had no problem living under Carver's roof with Bonnie kissing his ass but when Kenny treats Arvo harshly who had them ambushed, they see him as the bad guy, Jane delusionally believes that he's the next Carver because how he treats Arvo is similar to the actions of a child beating, handicapped murd… [view original content]
Okay here's my opinion
Remember Season 1 Episode 5... The guy who kidnapped Clementine and we went through hell and back to get Clem to safety?
That guy said something that ends up as a theme for Season 2 (Paraphrasing) "We are all monsters"
It may not be powerful but it's fucking true here.
Jane is right, Kenny lost it completely and she did need to show Clem that, if she had not been a BITCH and said it straight to Kenny or even SHOWED HIM than I would not hate the bitch
At the same time Kenny is a asshole for attacking in the first place, he was a wreck since Season 1 Episode 3, may have been repair since Sarita was dating him but was completely fucked over after Sarita's death. His time of death should have arrived then, but he kept pushing, although he really did want to die, you can just feel it within this episode with how aggressive he was and how much he was a fucking asshole towards Arvo...
Jane is a stupid idiot for lying to Kenny about the baby and NOT having a back-up plan for when things go too far! I don't care if she put her knife back, what stupid fool challenges a monster just to show "what he truly is". She could have simply shouted "THE BABY IS STILL ALIVE!" or ran towards the car and showed Kenny the baby. If you keep Kenny alive you actually hear him say he would have stopped if she mention how the baby was. Making Clem shoot Kenny, a old friend from an old and expired group, makes Clem and Jane the monsters.
With Kenny, he was a monster for long and Jane showing that was a good start to Clementine, Jane showed how easy it is to get into his bad side now and how violent he can get, especially since he was determined to murder just because of a accident. Keeping him alive makes Clementine join in the monster party with Kenny. He was always a prick, a greedy one at that. Nothing will ever change that
Overall... My personal ending is let Kenny kill Jane, go Wellington, and stay there while Kenny can no longer bother anyone as he redeems himself and doesn't go Wellington, the ONE PLACE he wanted to go more than anywhere.
My emotional ending is again. - let Kenny kill Jane, go Wellington and then never leave him. I may have hated Kenny for what he pulls, but he has been repaired once, given some time after the struggle with Jane, he has time to be repaired again, as he accepted what didn't go to plan in the end and walked off from Wellington
My after thought ending is killing Kenny - Abandoning Jane and going out on my own "We are all monsters" is what I called this ending. Yes Clem is now a badass, but now that she knows how to live in a world full of monsters, she might as well walk solo and become one herself.
"Who would you become?" is the main point... Personally this question actually gives out these responses no one has realised yet..
Would you become a monster who will always be on guard to KILL if anything happens? (Jane and Clem w/ family ending)
Would you become a monster who will never trust anyone and would walk solo? (Walk alone ending)
Would you become a monster who will accept violence and never face its way? No matter who that person is or what that person has done (Kenny and Clem ending)
You can defend Jane all you want, she's nothing more than Kenny, vise versa. Both Jane and Kenny were out to kill, if Jane won, it wouldn't prove how Kenny is a monster, but how she's one herself.
Letting Kenny kill Jane proved Jane's point of Kenny being a monster beyond reach. Being around him is dangerous
And how do you figure that? Based on the last confrontation? Where it was just her, and prepubescent kid you've grown attached to, and an un… morehinged, proven violent grown ass man? Where she was sick of seeing Clementine make excuses for Kenny violent behavior, and caring for her, made the baby as safe as she could so she could deal with a difficult situation to try and make Clementine see Kenny was out of road? She knew it would be a risk of her own life to provoke him, but if not then, then when? When he starts killing actually innocent people? So Clem can whine that he didn't mean it, and is actually a good person underneath? Sound familiar?
Jane was desperate and showed great character growth putting her own life on the line to try and convince a storyline railroaded Clementine that, however much a good person Kenny was in the past, he was no longer a person who listens to reason. That however apologetic he gets, he is too prone to violen… [view original content]
I love Jane, but I agree with most things you talk about. She shouldn't have done that to Kenny. It's basically like hiding someones kid when you were the last one to have it, and just saying it was an accident that it's gone. I don't think she ever said the baby wasn't dead, although that wasn't her plan. Still though, Kenny was slowly losing it, and he would've lost it eventually, possibly taking it out on Clem. In the end, I sided with Jane because she is one of my favorite characters, but it would make just as much sense, if not more, to side with Kenny.
Again, your missing the point. She's not a monster for her actions. She doesn't actually hurt anyone (short of harsh words but sticks and stones) and only contrives the situation because she believes Kenny to be a corrupting force on Clementine (and by extension, the baby itself). And considering Kenny's behavior (despite appeals to his buried humanity) and Clem's constant apologizing, she's right. Its only the three of them, trapped in a blinding snow storm, and things were headed for a head anyway. Her hand was forced.
Its not hard to figure out how Kenny feels. Its pretty much how anybody who has lost loved ones during this apocalypse feels. He is not a special case and while of course it colors his emotions, it does not justify his actions. He's understandably upset over Jane accidentally losing the baby, from either trying to get away from walkers in a blinding snow storm, to either freezing or starving to death. But he doesn't allow her two words to explain herself before he places blame and tries to execute his own justice, with no thought behind it. He doesn't know she's concocting a ruse, so you can't use that as a defense of his actions.
She was set in her ways. She knew she needed to deal with Kenny's behavior, whether he reformed from the news or lashed out at her for nothing but thinly-veiled emotional reasons. Telling him the baby was okay to save her own life would have defeated the purpose she set out to complete. Whether she lived or whether she died, she was going to confront Kenny and make Clem see how apologizing for him was futile, especially when it could very easily lead to her death. Could Clem apologize for that as well? Could she accept his pandering apology? These were the questions Jane needed to bring to light lest they continue to fester and things go from bad to worse. It was better to force the issue than let those two carry on, especially since she obviously also cared for Clem.
She doesn't deserve to die for a fib. What she did was nowhere near as monstrous as any selfish and violent behavior Kenny has displayed. Does Clem deserve to die because of all the indirect deaths she's caused? For all the manipulative lies she's told? Does Kenny? Does anyone? If you saw the person you cared about hang around someone who was obviously a bad influence, would you not go to unimaginable lengths in order to help them see the error of their ways? Because talking to them wasn't getting through?
Whilst you might consider her actions "brave" and "selfless," you need to understand the situation from Kenny's perspective. If you thought … moresomebody killed one of your beloved family members or friends, would you not try and hurt them too? Don't expect Kenny to take it casually. "Oh, you killed the baby, it's okay, let's forget it now sweetie!" No. Imagine the hurt and pain you would experience if somebody did the same to you. I would want to hurt ANYBODY that killed someone close to me, and I assume that you would too. Jane could've even said that it was all fake, and he would've stopped immediately. The fact that she tried to fool Kenny with such a horrible and upsetting lie is disgraceful! She clearly doesn't understand the emotional attachment a father has to his children, and to hear that they are dead is just... unbelievable. She deserved to die for what she did.
She couldn't tell Kenny about AJ... he never would have let Jane take the baby even if Clem decided to go with her. Ultimately although she cares about clem the most, we saw earlier in the episode that she was warming to the baby. She was trying to get them both away from Kenny, so he had to think AJ was gone.
she messed up big time, but she's not the first to make a mistake.
Dude, she pulled the weapon and then put it away. It wasn't self defense, AT ALL. Argue it's justifiable if you want, but it was absolutely not self defense.
You will notice that she provoked Kenny into that fight, and that she escalated things by pulling out a weapon. Kenny was unarmed. She planned on him attacking her, and then killing him.
That last quote. You know who it was directed to? Clem?
No, to Jamie.
She tries to cover it up fast, but you can see the shock on her face for a second. It was the second she realized that she just thought Clem was Jamie.
kenny thinks aj is dead, that is why he wouldn't mind dying, he probably would have felt the same way if lee had shot kenny after shooting duck, that is depression
"The Kenny Situation" was a situation that was closing in on a boiling point anyway. Jane realizes this. Your group members realize this. Ev… moreen Clem can come to realize this, expressing doubt in her ability to keep Kenny on any kind of leash, as everyone is sort of (unrealistically) expecting her to. Keeping up with Kenny's madness at that age I imagine can be quite... taxing. And having to constantly yell at Kenny to stop his latest violent burst, or convince him that maybe not everything he thinks is right is right, and maybe we should go back and take shelter and get stable again before we go chasing unsure bets with a newborn baby in need of constant care and rest, can push even further on her psyche.
Of course Jane, now breaking her own rules, is getting attached a little to Clem. Enough to care about what goes on in the camp. And Clem is being railroaded to apologizing for Kenny's behavior. Throughout the episode we see his decent. An… [view original content]
You know that's not true, Jane would leave anyone behind for her survival.
And yes, she did push her through hell, but she also gave up a… morend stopped halfway through, to save her own skin, if she really wanted her sister to live that much she should've helped her no matter what she thinks.
You must be a Kenny hater....you don't seem to realize (or you don't care) that Jane was willing to leave him out in the snow before the shooting happened, You also conveniently forget that Jane also left the baby in freezing weather in a car, alone, around walkers. THEN she came back trying to start a fight with Kenny to prove a point....Jane was an idiot, period. She was always looking out for herself above all.
Kenny, although easily angered and rough around the edges, always takes care of those with him, especially kids. Sure he has some bad days...who the hell wouldn't in a world like that?? However I will not argue with you, you apparently never seen people under duress and how they change....but Jane, yeah she is a saint....trying to manipulate Clem......what a clown, I am glad she is gone.
You call me a pure Kenny hater for having an opinion. I can switch that around and say, You amaze me for supporting Kenny.
How does leavi… moreng show she doesn't care for anyone? If she came back that obviously proves that wrong. I shot Kenny and I don't regret it. He deserved it. You also act like she PLANNED for Kenny to die. That wasn't her intention. HE made the fight deadly. Infact, HE started the fight in the first place.
"She wanted Clem to take the place of her sister". You mean how Kenny wants Clem to be his new Duck? Wiling to sacrifice Kenny? No. Her intentions were to show Clem what Kenny was capable of and she succeeded.
Also, your point about Ben going in the alley to save him, so what? He redeemed himself. That doesn't exactly mean he's a good person, it just means he's a man that's capable of doing good things. I praise him for what he did in the alley, but that doesn't make him much better in my book.
Both were crazy. I killed Kenny and I was a big fan of his. I sat with him at ep2. Agreed with him nearly all the time. But I couldn't let him kill Jane. She said it was an accident. He had no proof. I thought maybe Jane could of let the baby die, But then I thought, She might not be a fan of the baby, But i don't think she would go that far. I left Jane after her lies. My Clem may just be with the baby, But at least she is without Kenny's or Jane's or Bonnie's or Mike's.
You must be a Kenny hater....you don't seem to realize (or you don't care) that Jane was willing to leave him out in the snow before the sho… moreoting happened, You also conveniently forget that Jane also left the baby in freezing weather in a car, alone, around walkers. THEN she came back trying to start a fight with Kenny to prove a point....Jane was an idiot, period. She was always looking out for herself above all.
Kenny, although easily angered and rough around the edges, always takes care of those with him, especially kids. Sure he has some bad days...who the hell wouldn't in a world like that?? However I will not argue with you, you apparently never seen people under duress and how they change....but Jane, yeah she is a saint....trying to manipulate Clem......what a clown, I am glad she is gone.
Killing someone because you BELIEVE he/she did something is the very essence of insanity.
I'm sorry, but you should check your moral sensors if you condone such behavior.
I know my morals, hon. Your guilt tripping isn't going to work on me; Jane made a huge mistake and Kenny took it too far, so they were both in the wrong. You made your decision and I made mine.
Killing someone because you BELIEVE he/she did something is the very essence of insanity.
I'm sorry, but you should check your moral sensors if you condone such behavior.
I have a question. I've been wondering about this since the pevious episode.
Why did Jane told us that her sister thought that she is her friend and this just "couldn't go unpunished" so she cut her hair. Why? And that she liked to imagine that she's not her sister. Was she ashamed of her for some reason?
Her stories about her sister and getting drunk-eating glass as a kid makes me think she was just a stupid moron kid. Am I missing a something?
You're not even listening. It's not about "guilt tripping" but about your twisted thinking that it's justifiable to kill somebody on pure basis of BELIEF, not KNOWLEDGE. Look, that's exactly the point. You are impossible to reason with, you immunize yourself to any rational thought, you just make up your case and settle with it because.
Insane, absolutely insane. Your "morals" are fucked if you consider this to be right and I hope, in your own good, you won't come into any situation that needs your "morals" to be tested, as I can't possibly see how there can be any positive outcome with such a mindset.
I know my morals, hon. Your guilt tripping isn't going to work on me; Jane made a huge mistake and Kenny took it too far, so they were both in the wrong. You made your decision and I made mine.
Great post. Yeah both Jane and Kenny were monsters. If Jane killed Kenny she would of become what she hated in Kenny and Kenny killing Jane would of proven Jane right. The Clem and baby ending seemed right. They both lost their minds and wanted each other dead.
I'm not a Kenny hater. There's a difference between hating his character and disliking him. Guess what, I don't like Jane either. They're both unsafe for Clem to be around. You say I don't understand how people change under duress, but I guess that only applies to Kenny for you, doesn't it? Jane isn't allowed to change, because she isn't Kenny your lord and savior. They're both nuts and Clementine shouldn't be with either of them. Kenny doesn't always takes care of those with him. When he gets angry or upset he goes nuts and goes on a fucking rampage, or acts like a 5 year old and shuts everyone out, regardless of whether or not they're trying to help him. He's selfish and unreliable. Jane is selfish and unreliable.
You must be a Kenny hater....you don't seem to realize (or you don't care) that Jane was willing to leave him out in the snow before the sho… moreoting happened, You also conveniently forget that Jane also left the baby in freezing weather in a car, alone, around walkers. THEN she came back trying to start a fight with Kenny to prove a point....Jane was an idiot, period. She was always looking out for herself above all.
Kenny, although easily angered and rough around the edges, always takes care of those with him, especially kids. Sure he has some bad days...who the hell wouldn't in a world like that?? However I will not argue with you, you apparently never seen people under duress and how they change....but Jane, yeah she is a saint....trying to manipulate Clem......what a clown, I am glad she is gone.
Its called gut instinct. More times than not it will prove to be right. Like in this very instance where Jane was lying to both and trying to manipulate Clem into siding with her.
Kenny had a knife towards her chest, she could've stopped it anytime with three magic words "Baby is Alive" but instead she dragged it out, it's clear she had a death wish and wanted blood to spill either way she wanted Kenny gone and wanted to do it at all costs even putting a baby's life at risk never mind her own because like I said she could've ended at anytime. Funny when she tells Clem to stay out of it then minutes later she calls out for Clem's help, she rather have Clem shoot her closest friend than end the conflict herself because I'm sure Clem saw enough to form an opinion for herself. This is why I don't buy her excuse of her not wanting it to go that far, that is how reckless she is. The problem with Jane is that she known Kenny a few days then decided she knows him more than Clementine does and compares him to a child beating handicapped murdering madman. It's not Kenny's fault Mike & Bonnie showed their true colors and decided to leave the group for dead like the selfish cowards they are, they didn't give Clementine a chance to talk to him, like I said, Bonnie hung around with Carver who is a lot worse, so I suppose what Bonnie did at the ski lodge is her being scared of Walter? Did Kenny give her a hard time for that? No but she's happy to stick with Carver who'd smack a child for looking at them funny.
Bonnie had a chance to escape from Carver with Luke but decided to stay. She still stuck by him after Carver chased after people and brought them back against their will, killed Walter, killed/tortured Alvin, smacked a child for looking at him funny and made a father smack his child and damn knows what other things he did but when Kenny mistreats a guy that led a gang to ambush them then all hell breaks loose with her. She had a second chance and blew it.
Remember in Episode 4 where Kenny wanted to be left alone but everyone went to him for help even saying that he's crazy yet still ask for his help as they were all clueless. They had no plan but Kenny did and they followed on their own merit. Explain what destruction he left in his path? Is it his fault they got attacked by Arvo's group? Is it his fault that Luke died? Is it his fault that Mike & Bonnie were that much cowards that they would leave a wounded little girl? It's not Kenny's fault that he had bickering idiots following him. We don't know what kind of people Jane knew, like I said she didn't know Kenny and she certainly didn't know Carver or what he was like before yet compares both of them. Besides she is no different herself, if she considers Kenny to be crazy for beating up Arvo then what the fuck do you call a bitch that shoots a man in the nuts and leaves him to be eaten? she is in no position to judge without knowing the full details. If she had died and Kenny & Clem went off thinking the baby is dead, what would happen to the baby? starved to death if zombies didn't get it, she put the baby in danger for her own selfish needs. And when Kenny had a knife aimed at her chest and calls out to Clem or help when she could've stopped it all herself, she was putting Clem in a difficult position to shoot her friend.
Yeah it is hard to see any connection with Carver/Bonnie relationship with Kenny/Clementine because there is no connection. In two years or less, Carver became the way he is, ask yourself if Kenny came across as a brutal dictator when you meet him at a ski lodge? So much for him being just like Carver. Did Kenny beat Arvo half to death whereas Carver beat Kenny half to death where he nearly lost his life? Can't believe people are buying Jane's crap of Kenny being the next Carver.
She didn't go intending to die, but it being a possibility with how much more unstable (and older and stronger) he was over her. She put her… more life at risk to finally get through to Clem about enabling his crazy behavior. She tells her to stay out of it. She's seen this kind of behavior, and she's determined to put an end to it where everyone else just wants to cow tow, or run away and abandon a little girl and a baby, however capable they are, with a huge man obviously going over the deep end. But Kenny scared them that much. Does that not hold weight? Is that not a red flag?
Bonnie, much like Clem these last two episodes, makes excuses for Carver. And Carver was running his institution with armed and dangerous zealots to his cause. Remember how Carlos and the rest of the cabin group were scared of what he was capable of, and still couldn't get away? Of course they put up with it, basically as prisoners, and the first chance they got to bri… [view original content]
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Jane knew how to push Kenny's hot topic buttons and constantly did that to push him over the edge. She knew how messed up he was and Clementine was pretty much the only one able to keep him in check. She didn't have to do any of that, but she did. Maybe it was to help Clementine, maybe it was to cement the fact that she had another little sister and a chance to do right by this one. But she was fucked up for putting Kenny in that situation. Especially when we saw how determined he was to raise AJ right(correcting how he'd fucked up with Duck) and keep him and Clementine safe. She could have easily said, "WAIT! AJ's alive. I just wanted to prove a point to Clem" after he blew up.
Did she not think if she was killed as Kenny had knife towards her chest and Kenny & Clementine went off thinking the baby is dead, then what? Baby would've starved to death or killed by walkers if it didn't cry and alerted Clem & Kenny of it's presence. She put the baby in danger and put Clementine in a position to kill the one person she cared for all just to prove a unnecessary point. This is why me and many gamers despise her.
Mike & Bonnie were stupid cowards, that's all they were, in the end they were willing to leave a little girl that saved their sorry asses for dead. The funny thing about Jane, Mike & Bonnie is that they had no problem living under Carver's roof with Bonnie kissing his ass but when Kenny treats Arvo harshly who had them ambushed, they see him as the bad guy, Jane delusionally believes that he's the next Carver because how he treats Arvo is similar to the actions of a child beating, handicapped murdering piece of human garbage and confusingly there are people that see it this way also.
Fuck Jane
She brought the knife to the knife fight. Kenny killed her with her own knife.
Seriously?? He had all the right to attack her, she left the group before and showed she didn't care for anyone. She did come back, I was happy about that but she wanted to make Kenny mad and snap....she wanted Clem to take the place of her sister and she was willing to sacrifice Kenny to get it by acting like a fucking fool!!
When she said to Clem, "don't get in the middle", I knew something was up...but I was still hesitant to take sides. I tried to stop it but when it got deadly I let Kenny kill her. Just as everyone hated Kenny when he hated the teenage kid from season one (I cannot remember his name ATM) he eventually stood with him in the alley to protect him. Kenny may be an asshole, but he will protect children and the weak as long as they are not backstabbers.
I never loved Kenny as much as I do now, he has pulled me to his side and I will stand by him unless he flips and goes pyscho. To you pure Kenny haters....you amaze me. As much of a pain in the ass he can be, Kenny IS a good guy as is noticed upon reaching Wellington and trying to give Clem and AJ to the town to protect them.....I almost left to go, but in the end I couldn't watch Kenny lose anything else, it would have been the death of him.
Jane is the best thing that could've happened to Clementine, the best person to come across after Lee. Kenny was a fucking time bomb, fucking unstable, an old bitter angry man. Jane is the most reasonable and taught Clem more than Kenny ever has, the whole time Clem had to be the adult and calm Kenny down, what the fuck is that? I gladly shot him, so relieved and kinda happy for him cuz my Clementine believes he is seeing his family again.
Well, if you need to do such a stupid act to save a life, then willfully do so.
Damn.. not even an invite to dinner first.
Whilst you might consider her actions "brave" and "selfless," you need to understand the situation from Kenny's perspective. If you thought somebody killed one of your beloved family members or friends, would you not try and hurt them too? Don't expect Kenny to take it casually. "Oh, you killed the baby, it's okay, let's forget it now sweetie!" No. Imagine the hurt and pain you would experience if somebody did the same to you. I would want to hurt ANYBODY that killed someone close to me, and I assume that you would too. Jane could've even said that it was all fake, and he would've stopped immediately. The fact that she tried to fool Kenny with such a horrible and upsetting lie is disgraceful! She clearly doesn't understand the emotional attachment a father has to his children, and to hear that they are dead is just... unbelievable. She deserved to die for what she did.
INDEED. Kenny would have rushed immediately to the car to check on the baby.
Jane could have proved her point without making it a situation where one of them had to die. She made it "it's either Kenny or me", and I hate her guts for it because before she pulled that shit I liked her too and found it nice to have both of them, it felt like parents. As soon as I had guessed her little game (the way she gave me those looks was already suspicious, but when she told me to trust her no matter what happened I definitely knew something she had a something in mind) I did what I could to help Kenny in the fight and I let him kill her.
She lost to a game she tricked Kenny into playing to. She didn't deserve that but shooting him would have been the worse injustice.
You call me a pure Kenny hater for having an opinion. I can switch that around and say, You amaze me for supporting Kenny.
How does leaving show she doesn't care for anyone? If she came back that obviously proves that wrong. I shot Kenny and I don't regret it. He deserved it. You also act like she PLANNED for Kenny to die. That wasn't her intention. HE made the fight deadly. Infact, HE started the fight in the first place.
"She wanted Clem to take the place of her sister". You mean how Kenny wants Clem to be his new Duck? Wiling to sacrifice Kenny? No. Her intentions were to show Clem what Kenny was capable of and she succeeded.
Also, your point about Ben going in the alley to save him, so what? He redeemed himself. That doesn't exactly mean he's a good person, it just means he's a man that's capable of doing good things. I praise him for what he did in the alley, but that doesn't make him much better in my book.
She didn't go intending to die, but it being a possibility with how much more unstable (and older and stronger) he was over her. She put her life at risk to finally get through to Clem about enabling his crazy behavior. She tells her to stay out of it. She's seen this kind of behavior, and she's determined to put an end to it where everyone else just wants to cow tow, or run away and abandon a little girl and a baby, however capable they are, with a huge man obviously going over the deep end. But Kenny scared them that much. Does that not hold weight? Is that not a red flag?
Bonnie, much like Clem these last two episodes, makes excuses for Carver. And Carver was running his institution with armed and dangerous zealots to his cause. Remember how Carlos and the rest of the cabin group were scared of what he was capable of, and still couldn't get away? Of course they put up with it, basically as prisoners, and the first chance they got to bring down the system and get away from that madman, they took it.
Everyone saw that sticking with Kenny was an ultimately destructive path. Clem was following him down it, constantly apologizing for his behavior, constantly at odds with her sense of good judgement and constantly unsure of exactly how to handle the situation. She was stuck. Jane saw this. She's seen it before. She acted, ensuring the baby was as secure as it was going to get and confronting him by still offering him a chance to not be a total violent dickweed. She didn't put Clem in a position to kill him. Circumstances contrived to put that choice on her. And its ultimately up to the player if she kills Kenny or leaves Jane to her fate.
Kenny's treatment of Arvo is no different than how Carver treated... well, Kenny himself. Beating him half to death for a bit of (admittedly justified) insolence. He let his emotions dictate his actions, and then thinks that apologizing and appealing to his history with Clem will save him. And Clem lets him do it for lack of knowing how to actually handle the situation. She's stuck. Its not hard to see the Carver/Bonnie relationship with Kenny/Clementine.
Okay here's my opinion
Remember Season 1 Episode 5... The guy who kidnapped Clementine and we went through hell and back to get Clem to safety?
That guy said something that ends up as a theme for Season 2 (Paraphrasing) "We are all monsters"
It may not be powerful but it's fucking true here.
Jane is right, Kenny lost it completely and she did need to show Clem that, if she had not been a BITCH and said it straight to Kenny or even SHOWED HIM than I would not hate the bitch
At the same time Kenny is a asshole for attacking in the first place, he was a wreck since Season 1 Episode 3, may have been repair since Sarita was dating him but was completely fucked over after Sarita's death. His time of death should have arrived then, but he kept pushing, although he really did want to die, you can just feel it within this episode with how aggressive he was and how much he was a fucking asshole towards Arvo...
Jane is a stupid idiot for lying to Kenny about the baby and NOT having a back-up plan for when things go too far! I don't care if she put her knife back, what stupid fool challenges a monster just to show "what he truly is". She could have simply shouted "THE BABY IS STILL ALIVE!" or ran towards the car and showed Kenny the baby. If you keep Kenny alive you actually hear him say he would have stopped if she mention how the baby was. Making Clem shoot Kenny, a old friend from an old and expired group, makes Clem and Jane the monsters.
With Kenny, he was a monster for long and Jane showing that was a good start to Clementine, Jane showed how easy it is to get into his bad side now and how violent he can get, especially since he was determined to murder just because of a accident. Keeping him alive makes Clementine join in the monster party with Kenny. He was always a prick, a greedy one at that. Nothing will ever change that
Overall... My personal ending is let Kenny kill Jane, go Wellington, and stay there while Kenny can no longer bother anyone as he redeems himself and doesn't go Wellington, the ONE PLACE he wanted to go more than anywhere.
My emotional ending is again. - let Kenny kill Jane, go Wellington and then never leave him. I may have hated Kenny for what he pulls, but he has been repaired once, given some time after the struggle with Jane, he has time to be repaired again, as he accepted what didn't go to plan in the end and walked off from Wellington
My after thought ending is killing Kenny - Abandoning Jane and going out on my own "We are all monsters" is what I called this ending. Yes Clem is now a badass, but now that she knows how to live in a world full of monsters, she might as well walk solo and become one herself.
"Who would you become?" is the main point... Personally this question actually gives out these responses no one has realised yet..
Would you become a monster who will always be on guard to KILL if anything happens? (Jane and Clem w/ family ending)
Would you become a monster who will never trust anyone and would walk solo? (Walk alone ending)
Would you become a monster who will accept violence and never face its way? No matter who that person is or what that person has done (Kenny and Clem ending)
You can defend Jane all you want, she's nothing more than Kenny, vise versa. Both Jane and Kenny were out to kill, if Jane won, it wouldn't prove how Kenny is a monster, but how she's one herself.
Letting Kenny kill Jane proved Jane's point of Kenny being a monster beyond reach. Being around him is dangerous
NO ONE. is innocent
You broke the combo.
I love Jane, but I agree with most things you talk about. She shouldn't have done that to Kenny. It's basically like hiding someones kid when you were the last one to have it, and just saying it was an accident that it's gone. I don't think she ever said the baby wasn't dead, although that wasn't her plan. Still though, Kenny was slowly losing it, and he would've lost it eventually, possibly taking it out on Clem. In the end, I sided with Jane because she is one of my favorite characters, but it would make just as much sense, if not more, to side with Kenny.
Again, your missing the point. She's not a monster for her actions. She doesn't actually hurt anyone (short of harsh words but sticks and stones) and only contrives the situation because she believes Kenny to be a corrupting force on Clementine (and by extension, the baby itself). And considering Kenny's behavior (despite appeals to his buried humanity) and Clem's constant apologizing, she's right. Its only the three of them, trapped in a blinding snow storm, and things were headed for a head anyway. Her hand was forced.
Its not hard to figure out how Kenny feels. Its pretty much how anybody who has lost loved ones during this apocalypse feels. He is not a special case and while of course it colors his emotions, it does not justify his actions. He's understandably upset over Jane accidentally losing the baby, from either trying to get away from walkers in a blinding snow storm, to either freezing or starving to death. But he doesn't allow her two words to explain herself before he places blame and tries to execute his own justice, with no thought behind it. He doesn't know she's concocting a ruse, so you can't use that as a defense of his actions.
She was set in her ways. She knew she needed to deal with Kenny's behavior, whether he reformed from the news or lashed out at her for nothing but thinly-veiled emotional reasons. Telling him the baby was okay to save her own life would have defeated the purpose she set out to complete. Whether she lived or whether she died, she was going to confront Kenny and make Clem see how apologizing for him was futile, especially when it could very easily lead to her death. Could Clem apologize for that as well? Could she accept his pandering apology? These were the questions Jane needed to bring to light lest they continue to fester and things go from bad to worse. It was better to force the issue than let those two carry on, especially since she obviously also cared for Clem.
She doesn't deserve to die for a fib. What she did was nowhere near as monstrous as any selfish and violent behavior Kenny has displayed. Does Clem deserve to die because of all the indirect deaths she's caused? For all the manipulative lies she's told? Does Kenny? Does anyone? If you saw the person you cared about hang around someone who was obviously a bad influence, would you not go to unimaginable lengths in order to help them see the error of their ways? Because talking to them wasn't getting through?
She couldn't tell Kenny about AJ... he never would have let Jane take the baby even if Clem decided to go with her. Ultimately although she cares about clem the most, we saw earlier in the episode that she was warming to the baby. She was trying to get them both away from Kenny, so he had to think AJ was gone.
she messed up big time, but she's not the first to make a mistake.
Dude, she pulled the weapon and then put it away. It wasn't self defense, AT ALL. Argue it's justifiable if you want, but it was absolutely not self defense.
If you get between them and then select Jane, Clem tells ger to just run, and Jane says:
'Not happening.'
and pushes Clem on the ground, as violently as Kenny.
That last quote. You know who it was directed to? Clem?
No, to Jamie.
She tries to cover it up fast, but you can see the shock on her face for a second. It was the second she realized that she just thought Clem was Jamie.
kenny thinks aj is dead, that is why he wouldn't mind dying, he probably would have felt the same way if lee had shot kenny after shooting duck, that is depression
Oh jeez, she came back for Clem. What's the point if it were for her survival only? Doesn't make sense to me.
Because he was in the end.
You must be a Kenny hater....you don't seem to realize (or you don't care) that Jane was willing to leave him out in the snow before the shooting happened, You also conveniently forget that Jane also left the baby in freezing weather in a car, alone, around walkers. THEN she came back trying to start a fight with Kenny to prove a point....Jane was an idiot, period. She was always looking out for herself above all.
Kenny, although easily angered and rough around the edges, always takes care of those with him, especially kids. Sure he has some bad days...who the hell wouldn't in a world like that?? However I will not argue with you, you apparently never seen people under duress and how they change....but Jane, yeah she is a saint....trying to manipulate Clem......what a clown, I am glad she is gone.
Untrue watch the ending again, all windows were up.
Both were crazy. I killed Kenny and I was a big fan of his. I sat with him at ep2. Agreed with him nearly all the time. But I couldn't let him kill Jane. She said it was an accident. He had no proof. I thought maybe Jane could of let the baby die, But then I thought, She might not be a fan of the baby, But i don't think she would go that far. I left Jane after her lies. My Clem may just be with the baby, But at least she is without Kenny's or Jane's or Bonnie's or Mike's.
Nope. Matter of opinion.
Killing someone because you BELIEVE he/she did something is the very essence of insanity.
I'm sorry, but you should check your moral sensors if you condone such behavior.
I know my morals, hon. Your guilt tripping isn't going to work on me; Jane made a huge mistake and Kenny took it too far, so they were both in the wrong. You made your decision and I made mine.
Fuck Kenny XDDD
I have a question. I've been wondering about this since the pevious episode.
Why did Jane told us that her sister thought that she is her friend and this just "couldn't go unpunished" so she cut her hair. Why? And that she liked to imagine that she's not her sister. Was she ashamed of her for some reason?
Her stories about her sister and getting drunk-eating glass as a kid makes me think she was just a stupid moron kid. Am I missing a something?
You're not even listening. It's not about "guilt tripping" but about your twisted thinking that it's justifiable to kill somebody on pure basis of BELIEF, not KNOWLEDGE. Look, that's exactly the point. You are impossible to reason with, you immunize yourself to any rational thought, you just make up your case and settle with it because.
Insane, absolutely insane. Your "morals" are fucked if you consider this to be right and I hope, in your own good, you won't come into any situation that needs your "morals" to be tested, as I can't possibly see how there can be any positive outcome with such a mindset.
Doesn't mean she couldn't have at least said it. In fact if she did and he still attacked her it would have proven her point MUCH better.
I guess so, but it's too late now. Regardless, they both deserve the same amount of hate for being stupid psychos.
Great post. Yeah both Jane and Kenny were monsters. If Jane killed Kenny she would of become what she hated in Kenny and Kenny killing Jane would of proven Jane right. The Clem and baby ending seemed right. They both lost their minds and wanted each other dead.
I'm not a Kenny hater. There's a difference between hating his character and disliking him. Guess what, I don't like Jane either. They're both unsafe for Clem to be around. You say I don't understand how people change under duress, but I guess that only applies to Kenny for you, doesn't it? Jane isn't allowed to change, because she isn't Kenny your lord and savior. They're both nuts and Clementine shouldn't be with either of them. Kenny doesn't always takes care of those with him. When he gets angry or upset he goes nuts and goes on a fucking rampage, or acts like a 5 year old and shuts everyone out, regardless of whether or not they're trying to help him. He's selfish and unreliable. Jane is selfish and unreliable.
Yeah, Kenny's gut instinct worked out really well when he was saying Duck wouldn't turn.
Kenny had a knife towards her chest, she could've stopped it anytime with three magic words "Baby is Alive" but instead she dragged it out, it's clear she had a death wish and wanted blood to spill either way she wanted Kenny gone and wanted to do it at all costs even putting a baby's life at risk never mind her own because like I said she could've ended at anytime. Funny when she tells Clem to stay out of it then minutes later she calls out for Clem's help, she rather have Clem shoot her closest friend than end the conflict herself because I'm sure Clem saw enough to form an opinion for herself. This is why I don't buy her excuse of her not wanting it to go that far, that is how reckless she is. The problem with Jane is that she known Kenny a few days then decided she knows him more than Clementine does and compares him to a child beating handicapped murdering madman. It's not Kenny's fault Mike & Bonnie showed their true colors and decided to leave the group for dead like the selfish cowards they are, they didn't give Clementine a chance to talk to him, like I said, Bonnie hung around with Carver who is a lot worse, so I suppose what Bonnie did at the ski lodge is her being scared of Walter? Did Kenny give her a hard time for that? No but she's happy to stick with Carver who'd smack a child for looking at them funny.
Bonnie had a chance to escape from Carver with Luke but decided to stay. She still stuck by him after Carver chased after people and brought them back against their will, killed Walter, killed/tortured Alvin, smacked a child for looking at him funny and made a father smack his child and damn knows what other things he did but when Kenny mistreats a guy that led a gang to ambush them then all hell breaks loose with her. She had a second chance and blew it.
Remember in Episode 4 where Kenny wanted to be left alone but everyone went to him for help even saying that he's crazy yet still ask for his help as they were all clueless. They had no plan but Kenny did and they followed on their own merit. Explain what destruction he left in his path? Is it his fault they got attacked by Arvo's group? Is it his fault that Luke died? Is it his fault that Mike & Bonnie were that much cowards that they would leave a wounded little girl? It's not Kenny's fault that he had bickering idiots following him. We don't know what kind of people Jane knew, like I said she didn't know Kenny and she certainly didn't know Carver or what he was like before yet compares both of them. Besides she is no different herself, if she considers Kenny to be crazy for beating up Arvo then what the fuck do you call a bitch that shoots a man in the nuts and leaves him to be eaten? she is in no position to judge without knowing the full details. If she had died and Kenny & Clem went off thinking the baby is dead, what would happen to the baby? starved to death if zombies didn't get it, she put the baby in danger for her own selfish needs. And when Kenny had a knife aimed at her chest and calls out to Clem or help when she could've stopped it all herself, she was putting Clem in a difficult position to shoot her friend.
Yeah it is hard to see any connection with Carver/Bonnie relationship with Kenny/Clementine because there is no connection. In two years or less, Carver became the way he is, ask yourself if Kenny came across as a brutal dictator when you meet him at a ski lodge? So much for him being just like Carver. Did Kenny beat Arvo half to death whereas Carver beat Kenny half to death where he nearly lost his life? Can't believe people are buying Jane's crap of Kenny being the next Carver.
Jane? Is that you?
yes i'm jane in disguise