Similarities between Lilly and Kenny in the end and the purpose of the Lee scene.
The Kenny scene with Jane is very reminiscent of the Lily scene with Ben and Doug in my opinion.
Lilly thinks Ben did it, but had no real evidence, but is grieving and mentally unstable and so tries to shoot him.
Kenny thinks Jane killed the baby on purpose, but had no real evidence, but rather was grieving and mentally unstable and so tries to kill her.
In both of these cases you discover that Kenny/Lilly was right to be suspicious (although in a slightly different way for Ken), and yet their murder is still seen as morally grey at the very least. Certainly not objectively good.
My main reasoning for this is not in fact these stark (or so they seem to me) similarities, but something more hidden: The Lee scene they show us RIGHT BEFORE the fatal scene with Jane and Kenny happens is the scene were Lee explains why Lilly did what she did. He says words to the effect of 'she is sad, and extreme sadness makes people angry, and they feel a rush of emotion'.
They picked that very scene with lilly to show right before the incident. I don't believe this is co-incidence, but rather clever foreshadowing, as we know Telltale is keen on.
There is a key difference that this time we are able to stop Killy (pun AND a mashup, it's your lucky day!) from killing.
Does anyone else think that these similarities and the choice of scene where Lee explains grief were intentionally supposed to make us draw similarities?
Perhaps even the startling way Kenny (determinantly) recovers afterwards shows some hope that Lilly may have recovered from her madness. Perhaps we'll see her again as a more kind and stable individual, like the one Lee sees in episodes 1 and 2 if he sides with her.
Oh, and by the way I'm totally predicting some dick trying to start an 'ending choice debate' on this thread despite it being utterly irrelevant. Be warned, if you do I shall look at you with my judgement eyes:
Comments
I agree exactly. This whole Lee and Clem scene was pure genius to me, because it could be looked at from any angle depending on the ending you choose. It was honestly probably the best scene from Season 2 IMO. I still think it was Lee as an angel coming to come comfort Clem. :,)
I can also draw a parallel between Kenny's fight with Jane with Lee's battle over the Stranger. In both instances the two are battling over the right to own Clementine, and in both fights Clementine can choose to save the life of the combatant who is being pinned down (Lee/Jane) by shooting the person on top of them.
Yeah, I thought about that too
Nice parallels.....BUT WHAT DO THEY MEANNNN
LILLY CONFIRMED FOR SEASON 3!!!
Don't you mean Kenny vs Jane? since Lilly wasn't after Clementine
WOLOLOLOLOLOLO
I think he does
Also bump because everyone read my shit because it's 3:36 am and I'm grouchy so read my shit
So....Kenny was probably extremely sad that the baby was gone, and a rush of emotion told him that Jane had failed him and Clem, oh boy....
The point of the Lee dream sequence was to make me cry like a bitch. I'm not even lying. I bawled my eyes out when that came up for some reason. I feel ashamed of myself because I feel like it was a really stupid scene to cry over...
Better times...I guess?
My point exactly.
It was basically a choice of letting your old friend calm down while sacrificing your close, New friend, Or to choose to save the new friend.
Damn, I wish i had that choice with Carley.
I don't get if you're agreeing or disagreeing it's late okay
But they could have chosen a random Lee + Clem scene where they're playing football or something, this was about Lilly and forgiving her and stuff. Dench forseshadow m89, m89
I thought that the dream sequence and them mentioning Lilly was foreshadowing of some sort, but I was wrong. I guess that tweet from Lilly wasn't TWD related either.
Wow, beaucoup d'agreement m8
Jeez man, get some sleep...
I tried but I can't sleep due to thinking about some irl shit
Kenny was paralleled with a few characters this episode, beating up Arvo in nearly the same manner as Carver did to Kenny, with both Kenny and Arvo saying similar saying similar thing before being beaten ("Heh, f___er" and "f___ you", respectively). While during this Arvo was paralleled with Ben, being treated horribly by Kenny, with Kenny blaming him for nearly everything.
It can still be foreshadowing, just not directly to her character
I guess arguing with random strangers over the internet is a good a stress reliever as any :P
Arvo standing up to Kenny is a mirror of Ben saying "Fuck you, Kenny!" Only this time, Kenny doesn't even wait for Arvo to explain himself before trying to murder him.
Buncha alpha-male horse-shit.
Correct there m82
And he's gone, all gone * cackles *
I'm only really just basing off what Lee said in the flashback, and applying it to Kenny's mental breakdown.
Yeah, I noticed as well, as soon as he started beating on Arvo I was shouting, "You're being hypocrite!"
There's no point in saying that, Ken is always being a hypocrite
Yeah, he always is, but that was probably the biggest thing as a hypocrite he ever did. "I hated Carver for beating me up so much that I decided to murder him. Now let's beat up this defenseless kid exactly the way a power hungry dictator did to me! What could possibly go wrong?"
I actually felt betrayed by this scene, because my Lee was mad as hell against Lilly and would never ever have tried to rationalize her murder of Carley. He would have expressed only anger and contempt.
I guess this being a dream, there might as well have been a pink dragon in the van, so Telltale could technically betray my protagonist from season one and rob me in hindsight of my Lee's thoughts and stand about things without me being able of protesting, but I raged bad nonetheless.
Was Lilly/Carley buncha alpha-male horse-shit too ?
Eh, it was totally in character for Lee to at least try to understand Lilly's actions. He murdered someone too, remember? You can even ask him if he ever felt the same as Lilly before, and he'll tell you that he has, one time.
yeah this.
But this kind of major decisions about where Lee stands on such big issues was the decisions I used to take in season 1.
Such a dialogue option would have been for me to decide back then.
In this scene, Telltale puts words in the character I used to control, in a known context that I played where I never made him say such a thing. Not only that, but if given the choice, I would have strongly condemned what Lilly did, so those words they put in his mouth were the exact opposite of what my Lee would have said. That's why I felt betrayed. But then again, it was a dream, so unfortunately I can't sue Telltale for this (lel).
Gosh I hate when people compare Lee's crime of passion, with Lilly shooting Carley in the face because she couldn't stand being called a scared little girl.
Lee found his wife in bed with another man (a senator if I remember well), and killed them on the spot in a fit of rage. I may shock you but I don't blame him for one second. Adultery is the ultimate betrayal and was a crime punishable by death in all societies until not so long ago, for good reasons. For most of our history it was legitimate and legal to kill adulterers, still is in some countries. While current laws prohibit it, "crime of passion" is still a defense in most modern countries (NOT the same as the so-called "honor" killings taking place in muslim countries), and if illegal can still be understood.
My point is he committed a crime before current laws of western societies, but wether it was wrong or not on the moral ground is up to debate, depends on where you stand on this issue (not everything that is against the law is immoral) ; and most importantly, both persons he killed were guilty of what has long been considered one of the most abhorrent crimes : adultery. And he obviously had undeniable proof since he caught them red-handed.
Carley was innocent. Lilly only suspected her, but failed to establish any guilt (obviously since she was innocent) and yet, decided to kill her anyway. Now that is purely murder in all societies, past or present, western world or anywhere.
My spider sense tells me I will probably stand alone on Lee being morally justified to chastise by death his adulterous wife and the senator, but at least you can't deny they were guilty of something, wether you consider their crime deserving death or not.
Carley was innocent. Lilly murdering her, and you could twist and turn the circumstances and explanations anyway you like, was entirely morally wrong on all accounts and by all definitions.
Meh, the player doesn't get the choice to be an asshole to Clem. Lee always shows regret for killing the senator no matter what you want. There some aspects of Lee's character that we can't change.
My point was more that it makes absolute sense for Lee, regardless of player input, to have some understanding behind Lilly's actions because he's been in a similar position. We can argue all we want about which murder was more justified, but the fact of the matter is that Lee can sympathize with murderers, seeing as he is one.
Nice post! I felt similar parallels when participating in the dream sequence. But in the end I felt Kenny's emotional outbursts were different from Lily's because he took his aggression out on the captive, which I totally agreed with since I knew he would find a way to kill us first chance he got. Lily always took her aggression out on the group. Because of this I felt Kenny was different enough from Lily to keep believing in him. The ending I got made it worth it for me. In fact no matter how you felt I believe there is a good ending for you. Except for those who really liked Luke. I don't understand it but to each their own. You got to customize how Clementine ended up. This also makes me feel like she will definitely not be the protagonist in Season 3.
Were they alpha males?
The easiest spoiler report I ever made
You didn't "know" that Arvo would have killed Kenny's group in their sleep. If anything, Kenny's inhumane treatment of him only made it MORE likely that Arvo would have tried to kill them.
And I'm sure that you can see something wrong in abusing a prisoner who is already at your mercy. Carver was wrong for abusing Sarah and Clementine, and he was wrong for murdering Reggie, and he was wrong for trying to beat Kenny to death for stealing a radio. Arvo was not Carver, yet because he opposed Kenny he was treated exactly the same way.
Alright, you have to be trolling at this point.
No... anything but a Lilly comparison.. please... (<---- Joking, though I hate Lilly with passion)
I shall have a proper response coming to you tomorrow after some sleep.
I know you hate Lilly with a passion, which makes me unlikely to read what you put anyway.
The scene is also trying to point out why Arvo shot clem in my opinion