the player doesn't get the choice to be an asshole to Clem
Who said anything about being an asshole to Clem ?
Lee always shows regret for killing the senator
He regrets the consequences, that it subsequently caused harm and shame to his family and since being taken in jail, he had to part from his parents and brother : he never even implies he had no moral right to take this man's life.
Actually there is a dialogue with Clem that ends up in Lee saying the senator was a bad man without even taking the time to think about it.
CLEM : "The lady said you killed someone. Was that because he was one of the things trying to eat you ?
LEE : No he wasn't / Yes he was / It's complicated = Let's be honest and go for "No, he wasn't."
CLEM : Oh. Was he bad ?
LEE (spontaneously, immediately) : He was.
As I remember my playthrough, Lee never showed remorse for the murder in itself, but for the price he had to pay and the consequences for his family. There's nothing that ever indicates that Lee considers the senator as not deserving death.
Carley did nothing to deserve the brutal death Lilly brought upon her.
I hate that Telltale forced this Lee understanding the murder of Carley, especially when the huge majority of the community always considered this assassination despicable, revolting and unjustified. And rightfully so.
"Lee can sympathize with murderers" is just your own opinion, man, and quite a bold assumption. The man he murdered had committed a crime himself, Lee could rightfully consider him as deserving death (even if legally he had no right to kill him). How does that make the horrible murder of 100% innocent Carley understandable to him ? Apples and oranges.
Meh, the player doesn't get the choice to be an asshole to Clem. Lee always shows regret for killing the senator no matter what you want. Th… moreere some aspects of Lee's character that we can't change.
My point was more that it makes absolute sense for Lee, regardless of player input, to have some understanding behind Lilly's actions because he's been in a similar position. We can argue all we want about which murder was more justified, but the fact of the matter is that Lee can sympathize with murderers, seeing as he is one.
I was pointing out that there are aspects of Lee's character that cant be changed by the player. His bond with Clem for one. Thanks for reminding me about the conversation where Lee is honest with Clem, completely forgot about it. But if you talk to the Stranger about the murder, Lee clearly regrets hurting his wife by killing her lover; maybe he doesn't always regret killing the senator, but he regrets hurting his wife indeterminately. So that's another unchangeable aspect of Lee.
And Carley's death wasn't justified, but as Lee said, he can at least understand why Lilly was crazy. "She was sad. That can make people angry sometimes". Lee was in the best position to understand that feeling, because I'm sure he was sad that his wife betrayed her, which then made him angry. I'm not sure why you're so upset Lee can understand what made Lilly do what he did; he never agrees with what Lilly did, he just tells Clem why he thinks she did it because she asked for his input. He can even outright say that bringing her might not be a good idea because she could hurt Clem.
the player doesn't get the choice to be an asshole to Clem
Who said anything about being an asshole to Clem ?
Lee always shows… more regret for killing the senator
He regrets the consequences, that it subsequently caused harm and shame to his family and since being taken in jail, he had to part from his parents and brother : he never even implies he had no moral right to take this man's life.
Actually there is a dialogue with Clem that ends up in Lee saying the senator was a bad man without even taking the time to think about it.
CLEM : "The lady said you killed someone. Was that because he was one of the things trying to eat you ?
LEE : No he wasn't / Yes he was / It's complicated = Let's be honest and go for "No, he wasn't."
CLEM : Oh. Was he bad ?
LEE (spontaneously, immediately) : He was.
As I remember my playthrough, Lee never showed remorse for the murder in itself, but for the price he had to pay and t… [view original content]
Nice post! I felt similar parallels when participating in the dream sequence. But in the end I felt Kenny's emotional outbursts were differe… morent from Lily's because he took his aggression out on the captive, which I totally agreed with since I knew he would find a way to kill us first chance he got. Lily always took her aggression out on the group. Because of this I felt Kenny was different enough from Lily to keep believing in him. The ending I got made it worth it for me. In fact no matter how you felt I believe there is a good ending for you. Except for those who really liked Luke. I don't understand it but to each their own. You got to customize how Clementine ended up. This also makes me feel like she will definitely not be the protagonist in Season 3.
You mean the kid that set the group up to be robbed. Literally walked out in front and issued the threats? The kid that shot Clem evil looks the whole time? The kid is delusional. He thinks you killed his sister. He's dangerous. If Arvo shooting Clem was a complete shock to you you weren't paying attention. So yeah anyone paying attention to blatant signs would "know" man. Arvo didn't "oppose Kenny" he pretty much tried to murder and rob the entire group. Kenny was going to just kill Arvo and the group decided to take him prisoner. A group that was on it's way out as Jane even points out.
You didn't "know" that Arvo would have killed Kenny's group in their sleep. If anything, Kenny's inhumane treatment of him only made it MOR… moreE likely that Arvo would have tried to kill them.
And I'm sure that you can see something wrong in abusing a prisoner who is already at your mercy. Carver was wrong for abusing Sarah and Clementine, and he was wrong for murdering Reggie, and he was wrong for trying to beat Kenny to death for stealing a radio. Arvo was not Carver, yet because he opposed Kenny he was treated exactly the same way.
Oh, well. Jane abandons the group then rejoins to GET CLEM so they can both ditch the group. She's not trustworthy to begin with, and certainly there to sabotage the group (or let it fall apart by itself rather and get Clem before it does). Then she decides to antagonize Kenny by leaving the baby in a car in a blizzard so Kenny will think she killed it. If you think that is similar to flat out shooting a loyal group member in the face without provocation like Lily did (there's a disagreement but that's it), well to each their own I guess. Perhaps baby murder isn't as big a deal to you as it is to some other people. You're comparing apples to oranges than if you think Kenny attacking Jane and Lily killing Doug/Carly are identical.
That scene made me feel good for my choice to let lily back in, and also helped me to let kenny kill jane. I am happy with my decision and understand why kenny did what he did, which was the right thing to do imo. Just sad that one of them had to die. I wish I could have saved both, but jane just had to fucking provoke him with his family and stuff..
See, the thing is with this game, half of the dialogue is determinant.
Some people had Lilly in the RV when Lee was saying all that, making it have different implications on what he was trying to convey to Clem. The thing is, Lee's talk is vague enough to be taken in both directions, keeping Kenny alive and stopping him from killing Jane.
You also missed a point. In the dream scene, Lee also tells Clem that 'good people sometimes do bad things, it's just the way it is now'. Now, is he referring to himself...or...the foreboding of why Jane did what she did.
I did not forgive Jane and went alone personally, 'but'....at the chance you can forgive her.....'Good people sometimes do bad things'....
He gives Clem "evil looks" the whole time? First off, when you try to approach him at the power station he just meekly tells you to go away. He may have blamed Clem for killing Natasha as he had no idea that she was a zombie, but that doesn't mean he hates everyone. Didn't you notice how calm he was with Mike once that guy took the time to actually console him?
And it was not Arvo's idea to rob the group. It was Buricko's, the bald asshole who wanted to "take everything", was unwilling to negotiate or back down even though Jane wasn't present and the group had a baby, and started the gunfight in the first place despite Arvo and Natasha's warnings. People don't blame him because he already died.
Which is stupid. Kenny could have just carved up Buricko's corpse if he wanted to vent his rage out.
You mean the kid that set the group up to be robbed. Literally walked out in front and issued the threats? The kid that shot Clem evil looks… more the whole time? The kid is delusional. He thinks you killed his sister. He's dangerous. If Arvo shooting Clem was a complete shock to you you weren't paying attention. So yeah anyone paying attention to blatant signs would "know" man. Arvo didn't "oppose Kenny" he pretty much tried to murder and rob the entire group. Kenny was going to just kill Arvo and the group decided to take him prisoner. A group that was on it's way out as Jane even points out.
The kid is a willing participant. He lies and says you robbed him even if you didn't. So what did he do with all that stuff then if he scoots away with it? Natasha pulls a gun on you. So what warnings? Also, just for kicks to test that theory I played a do everything right playthrough. Clem refuses to rob Arvo, tells kenny to stop when Kenny gets abusive, and even tries to stop Kenny. In addition, I even drop the gun at the confrontation. Arvo still tries to kill you. Arvo is a ruthless little bastard that frankly should have been put down. He isn't innocent. Yes he likely calms down because Mike and Bonnie are betraying the group and he is more than happy to do that. Sorry man, the age of aggressor drops considerably in this setting and Arvo is frankly an evil person.
He gives Clem "evil looks" the whole time? First off, when you try to approach him at the power station he just meekly tells you to go away… more. He may have blamed Clem for killing Natasha as he had no idea that she was a zombie, but that doesn't mean he hates everyone. Didn't you notice how calm he was with Mike once that guy took the time to actually console him?
And it was not Arvo's idea to rob the group. It was Buricko's, the bald asshole who wanted to "take everything", was unwilling to negotiate or back down even though Jane wasn't present and the group had a baby, and started the gunfight in the first place despite Arvo and Natasha's warnings. People don't blame him because he already died.
Which is stupid. Kenny could have just carved up Buricko's corpse if he wanted to vent his rage out.
Like I said in another thread, imo the flashback serves another purpose (not saying it doesn't serve this one as well, just adding to it) :
The memorable Lee quote about how "sometimes there are no good decisions". That was basically foreshadowing the decision you would have to make later on - and how either way, it's going to be horrible. AND that's Telltale saying to us players that there aren't any good or bad endings and that we shouldn't fight over it - but some people obviously didn't take the hint .
Like I said in another thread, imo the flashback serves another purpose (not saying it doesn't serve this one as well, just adding to it) :
… more
The memorable Lee quote about how "sometimes there are no good decisions". That was basically foreshadowing the decision you would have to make later on - and how either way, it's going to be horrible. AND that's Telltale saying to us players that there aren't any good or bad endings and that we shouldn't fight over it - but some people obviously didn't take the hint .
Comments
Who said anything about being an asshole to Clem ?
He regrets the consequences, that it subsequently caused harm and shame to his family and since being taken in jail, he had to part from his parents and brother : he never even implies he had no moral right to take this man's life.
Actually there is a dialogue with Clem that ends up in Lee saying the senator was a bad man without even taking the time to think about it.
CLEM : "The lady said you killed someone. Was that because he was one of the things trying to eat you ?
LEE : No he wasn't / Yes he was / It's complicated = Let's be honest and go for "No, he wasn't."
CLEM : Oh. Was he bad ?
LEE (spontaneously, immediately) : He was.
As I remember my playthrough, Lee never showed remorse for the murder in itself, but for the price he had to pay and the consequences for his family. There's nothing that ever indicates that Lee considers the senator as not deserving death.
Carley did nothing to deserve the brutal death Lilly brought upon her.
I hate that Telltale forced this Lee understanding the murder of Carley, especially when the huge majority of the community always considered this assassination despicable, revolting and unjustified. And rightfully so.
"Lee can sympathize with murderers" is just your own opinion, man, and quite a bold assumption. The man he murdered had committed a crime himself, Lee could rightfully consider him as deserving death (even if legally he had no right to kill him). How does that make the horrible murder of 100% innocent Carley understandable to him ? Apples and oranges.
Oh my. I wonder how that will turn out!
My condolences to people who haven't played the episode and are lurking by the forums ;_;
I was pointing out that there are aspects of Lee's character that cant be changed by the player. His bond with Clem for one. Thanks for reminding me about the conversation where Lee is honest with Clem, completely forgot about it. But if you talk to the Stranger about the murder, Lee clearly regrets hurting his wife by killing her lover; maybe he doesn't always regret killing the senator, but he regrets hurting his wife indeterminately. So that's another unchangeable aspect of Lee.
And Carley's death wasn't justified, but as Lee said, he can at least understand why Lilly was crazy. "She was sad. That can make people angry sometimes". Lee was in the best position to understand that feeling, because I'm sure he was sad that his wife betrayed her, which then made him angry. I'm not sure why you're so upset Lee can understand what made Lilly do what he did; he never agrees with what Lilly did, he just tells Clem why he thinks she did it because she asked for his input. He can even outright say that bringing her might not be a good idea because she could hurt Clem.
Um...
I was saying Kenny was imilar to Kenny for the way he attacked Jane, not arvo...
Jane is essentially a group member dude..
Oh please, there are far more spoilerific thread titles than mine.
If this was really bad, it would have been edited by mods.
You mean the kid that set the group up to be robbed. Literally walked out in front and issued the threats? The kid that shot Clem evil looks the whole time? The kid is delusional. He thinks you killed his sister. He's dangerous. If Arvo shooting Clem was a complete shock to you you weren't paying attention. So yeah anyone paying attention to blatant signs would "know" man. Arvo didn't "oppose Kenny" he pretty much tried to murder and rob the entire group. Kenny was going to just kill Arvo and the group decided to take him prisoner. A group that was on it's way out as Jane even points out.
Oh, well. Jane abandons the group then rejoins to GET CLEM so they can both ditch the group. She's not trustworthy to begin with, and certainly there to sabotage the group (or let it fall apart by itself rather and get Clem before it does). Then she decides to antagonize Kenny by leaving the baby in a car in a blizzard so Kenny will think she killed it. If you think that is similar to flat out shooting a loyal group member in the face without provocation like Lily did (there's a disagreement but that's it), well to each their own I guess. Perhaps baby murder isn't as big a deal to you as it is to some other people. You're comparing apples to oranges than if you think Kenny attacking Jane and Lily killing Doug/Carly are identical.
How do u know that? I need proves
Well Kenny recovered from his wife and son in like 3 days. Sarita JUST died. He didnt have time to recover just yet
That scene made me feel good for my choice to let lily back in, and also helped me to let kenny kill jane. I am happy with my decision and understand why kenny did what he did, which was the right thing to do imo. Just sad that one of them had to die. I wish I could have saved both, but jane just had to fucking provoke him with his family and stuff..
See, the thing is with this game, half of the dialogue is determinant.
Some people had Lilly in the RV when Lee was saying all that, making it have different implications on what he was trying to convey to Clem. The thing is, Lee's talk is vague enough to be taken in both directions, keeping Kenny alive and stopping him from killing Jane.
You also missed a point. In the dream scene, Lee also tells Clem that 'good people sometimes do bad things, it's just the way it is now'. Now, is he referring to himself...or...the foreboding of why Jane did what she did.
I did not forgive Jane and went alone personally, 'but'....at the chance you can forgive her.....'Good people sometimes do bad things'....
He gives Clem "evil looks" the whole time? First off, when you try to approach him at the power station he just meekly tells you to go away. He may have blamed Clem for killing Natasha as he had no idea that she was a zombie, but that doesn't mean he hates everyone. Didn't you notice how calm he was with Mike once that guy took the time to actually console him?
And it was not Arvo's idea to rob the group. It was Buricko's, the bald asshole who wanted to "take everything", was unwilling to negotiate or back down even though Jane wasn't present and the group had a baby, and started the gunfight in the first place despite Arvo and Natasha's warnings. People don't blame him because he already died.
Which is stupid. Kenny could have just carved up Buricko's corpse if he wanted to vent his rage out.
The kid is a willing participant. He lies and says you robbed him even if you didn't. So what did he do with all that stuff then if he scoots away with it? Natasha pulls a gun on you. So what warnings? Also, just for kicks to test that theory I played a do everything right playthrough. Clem refuses to rob Arvo, tells kenny to stop when Kenny gets abusive, and even tries to stop Kenny. In addition, I even drop the gun at the confrontation. Arvo still tries to kill you. Arvo is a ruthless little bastard that frankly should have been put down. He isn't innocent. Yes he likely calms down because Mike and Bonnie are betraying the group and he is more than happy to do that. Sorry man, the age of aggressor drops considerably in this setting and Arvo is frankly an evil person.
Like I said in another thread, imo the flashback serves another purpose (not saying it doesn't serve this one as well, just adding to it) :
The memorable Lee quote about how "sometimes there are no good decisions". That was basically foreshadowing the decision you would have to make later on - and how either way, it's going to be horrible. AND that's Telltale saying to us players that there aren't any good or bad endings and that we shouldn't fight over it - but some people obviously didn't take the hint
.
I think that is all it was as well.